A summary for those that haven’t been keeping up with this series:
I found a number of 5.25″ disks at a thrift store a number of years ago. I finally got around to acquiring a 5.25″ disk drive and extracting the contents a while back. Since then I have been posting the contents here.
Based on the contents, at least some of these disks were apparently once owned by someone named Connie who used to run the “Close Encounters” Special Interest Group (SIG) on Delphi in the mid 1980s.
A specific definition of this SIG was found in a document on one of the disks: “This SIG, known as ‘Close Encounters’, is a forum for the discussion of relationships that develop via computer services like the Source, CompuServe, and Delphi. Our primary emphasis is on the sexual aspects of those relationships.”
This service was text based and was accessed via whatever terminal program you used on your computer to dial in to Delphi’s servers. Many of these disks have forum messages, e-mails and chat session logs. All of this is pre-internet stuff and I don’t know if there are any archives in existence today of what was on Delphi in the 1980s. In any case, much of this stuff would have been private at the time and probably wouldn’t be in such archives even if they existed.
This post includes the contents of CLEC01.DOC. The file is dated October 26th, 1985 and contains a chat log about marriage, specifically regarding the question ‘Why get married?’.
See the previous post here.
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CLEC01.DOC
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** New group name "CLE - WHY MARRY ?" selected **
** NJOHNSON just joined CLE - WHY MARRY ? (2 members now) **
** JOEY just joined CLE - WHY MARRY ? (3 members now) **
** RBS just joined CLE - WHY MARRY ? (4 members now) **
** Dick just joined CLE - WHY MARRY ? (5 members now) **
Myself> ATTN:...
Myself> is time to discuss (or discover) the reason for marriage.
JOEY> Hi Dick.
Myself> one thing is certain before we start...
Myself> Lawyers were invented AFTER the fact.
RBS> brb
RBS> - signed off -
NJOHNSON> Your sure about that now?
Myself> Yes, when they saw the possibilities in marriage - they
immediately started
NJOHNSON> i c
Myself> specializing in the creation and maintainance of divorce
JOEY> and charges.
Myself> <yes nance - I'm sure>
Myself> but on the more serious side....
Myself> why marry in the first place?
Myself> <comments here>
Myself> <write legibly>
JOEY> !
Myself> ga joey
JOEY> Well, I think that after two people see each other for
awhile....
NJOHNSON> Well in Justins First Apology it saids Marry for the
purpose of raising a family or abstain completely. ga
JOEY> They seem to think getting married married is a way of claiming
the other person. ga
Myself> claiming the other for what purpose
Myself> don't they have enuf trouble
Myself> with themselves?
JOEY> For themselves, John. Less chance of them leaving.
Probably....
JOEY> a self confidence problem for some people.
Myself> no doubt
Myself> any one here tonight who is married?
JOEY> Not me.
Myself> well don't all spk at once.
Myself> I can only take so much at one time <grin>
Myself> dick care to comment?
Dick> on being married?
Myself> yes
Dick> I like it!
Myself> why?
** ray just joined CLE - WHY MARRY ? (5 members now) **
Myself> hi ray
JOEY> Hi Ray.
NJOHNSON> hi
ray> hi all
Dick> it keeps me off the street corners and out of the bars <grin>
Dick> also very broke.
ray> long time no see
Myself> I have a computer that does that much!
Dick> however I find it very comfortable to have a family and its
support to offset the responsibilities of raising childern and
being responsive to my wife's needs.
Myself> ok
Dick> the computer only adds to the problems when I spend too much
time and/or money on it <grin>
Myself> of course, if u weren't married you would not have those
things to be offset.
Myself> which it almost always does right?
Dick> true, I'd find other vices to spend time and money on.
NJOHNSON> - signed off -
Myself> right
Dick> right!
JOEY> brb
JOEY> - signed off -
** JOEY just joined CLE - WHY MARRY ? (4 members now) **
JOEY> hmmm, couldn't find anybody.
Myself> only 7 hrs dick?
Dick> took a break for some "honeydo's"
ray> - signed off -
Myself> at least she was doing <an not don't ing>
Dick> agreed.
Myself> <remark contributed by Princess>
JOEY> hehehe
Myself> that was a quick co
Myself> ** New group name "CLE THIS IS A CONFERENCE??" selected **
Dick> so much for tonight. see you in Forum.
Myself> right
JOEY> System is going nuts.
Myself> so am I
** Marti just joined CLE THIS IS A CONFERENCE?? (3 members now) **
JOEY> Hi Marti.
Marti> Hi Joey
JOEY> shhhhh, John.
Myself> well, s abt time u got here <grin>
Marti> Sorry....just got back from Boston
Myself> thats true joey
Marti> went 70 mph
JOEY> WOW!
Marti> well....almost
Myself> will stick around till ten then hanging it up otherwise.
JOEY> How was it?
Marti> Wonderful!!!!
JOEY> <jealous>
Marti> Anyone else coming?
JOEY> Not me.
Myself> I am not even breathing hard!
Marti> sheesh
Myself> u askd
Marti> you guys are no fun
** RODM just joined CLE THIS IS A CONFERENCE?? (4 members now) **
Myself> hi rod
JOEY> Hi Rod.
Marti> Hi Rod!
RODM> hey there
JOEY> How you know Marti?
Myself> u w the stars in ur eyes.
Marti> hhmmm...guess I don't really know, do I?
Myself> no!!
Myself> for the record - I'm no fun
Myself> just ask my favorite women!
Marti> I don't believe that, John.
Marti> women?
JOEY> Princess, you there?
JOEY> ahem
Marti> he said "women"
Myself> something wrong with your hem joey?
JOEY> Yep, too short.
** EFK just joined CLE THIS IS A CONFERENCE?? (5 members now) **
Marti> who else should we ask, John?
JOEY> Hi Liz.
Marti> Hi Elizabeth
EFK> Hi All.
RODM> Hi Liz
** Bob just joined CLE THIS IS A CONFERENCE?? (6 members now) **
Myself> yeah, let it down and for god's sake cover those knees!
Myself> hi lz
Marti> Hi Bob
JOEY> Hi Bob.
Myself> ** New group name "CLE - WHY MARRY" selected **
Bob> rehi all
EFK> Why the Is this a conference name?
EFK> Never you mind.
Myself> because I thot no-one was going to show up
EFK> Here's me.
Myself> I am going to post a poll later thes evening on the subject
Myself> of conference starting time.
Myself> be sure to vote.
EFK> Just got back from the Computer show. Didn't make the early
train. Sorry to be late.
RODM> what show?!!
JOEY> - signed off -
Bob> - signed off -
Myself> I heard there was a computer running around Boston in the
Nude!
RODM> oops there we go again!
EFK> Madison Square Garden Selling show.
Marti> Where Myself?
Myself> everyone called that a computer show <grin>
Myself> princess sends all her love.
EFK> Tell her thanks.
EFK> But she should save some.
RODM> Likewise and tell her I miss her!
Myself> says she has plenty to go around - thinks she is Juliet
Myself> the more she gives the more she has.
EFK> Saw a great button at the show a propos this sig...
EFK> Nice computers don't go down.
RODM> on line that is!!!
Myself> right!!
EFK> Someone should tell Delphi's VAX that!
Myself> that's the Vax of life my friend.
Marti> BRB..going to mail
EFK> ok Marti. We'll still be here.
Myself> Liz - where's jane?
EFK> Wanna wait for everybody to come back before we start?
EFK> Was just gonna ask that myself.
Myself> I'm still waiting for everyone to arrive in the first place.
EFK> And I thought I was late. Never again guilt
Marti> I just got here too, Liz.....THEY were early.
Myself> We were on time - note official co schedule time is 9:30 pm
eastern time.
EFK> Oh. Thought it was 9.
Marti> Oh yeah?
RODM> I'm ALWAYS late - the LATE Rod!
Myself> I heard another name rod
Myself> something applicable to warmer temps. <griggle>
RODM> several I suspect!!!
RODM> most of them bad!!
EFK> What are you talking about?
Marti> Is Connie coming tonight?
Marti> <no comment myself>
Myself> just running off at the mouth luv.
RODM> I think so
EFK> Fill my screen, Big Boy.
RODM> she will be latre!
RODM> late! that is
Myself> what do u mean will be - she is <hahaha>
Marti> Guess joey and bob are having problems.
EFK> <he he ha>
Myself> I didn't know they were c'ing ea other <gasp!>
RODM> She should be arriving Jax about NOW!
Myself> hahahahahahaha
Myself> be at least 40 minutes b 4 she gets near to being on-line
Marti> hhmm....it IS suspicious, Myself
RODM> >John >2
Myself> well shall we continue or what?
RODM> go for it!
Myself> ok....
Marti> yes, Myself
** JOEY just joined CLE - WHY MARRY (5 members now) **
Myself> the appointed topic is why marry, and 2 out of 3 people
responsible for the suggested topic are now here so liz - go
for it.
JOEY> I miss anything?
Marti> Hi Joey
EFK> I ask this questin because...
Myself> not yet joey
Myself> <is bob ok? <griggle>>
** FRIDAY just joined CLE - WHY MARRY (6 members now) **
EFK> More and more people are living together instead of going "legal
FRIDAY> evening
EFK> Hi Bob
JOEY> Hi Richard. Long time no see.
FRIDAY> yeah..good to be back!
Marti> <Hi Richard>
Myself> <lo rich>
EFK> Why get legally married is a good questin for the 80's.
RODM> rehi
EFK> Do I have to go first?
Myself> no
Myself> but u may.
FRIDAY> <grin>
EFK> Ok. The first time or the second?
Myself> does it matter? - yes it does
EFK> yes it does.
Myself> the first time is excusable - after that ur on ur own.
Myself> lets start at the beginning
EFK> I got married the first time after living together because...
EFK> something in the back of my mind...
EFK> (in my mother's voice) said I should be married.
Myself> <mothers are like that>
EFK> I was 22, and all that brainwashing is hard to overcome.
EFK> The second time, Alex & I lived together first too, and I didn't
want to get married.
EFK> But he had never been married, and I think he wanted the legal
commitment. Since it didn't matter to me either way, no
difference in my mind, anyway, I married him.
Myself> and?
EFK> I think people marry for the commitment. But is it really
necessary?
Myself> good q
EFK> And what really IS the commitment? "fidelity" (I hate that
word.)
JOEY> !
EFK> ga
Myself> joey
JOEY> I will say it again.. Men are not as self confident as
women......
JOEY> and they want the commitment because of jealousy or lack
of.....
JOEY> self confidence. ga
Marti> ?
Myself> ok, both valid points
Myself> and no doubt some validity in both
Myself> marti ga
Marti> One thing we are overlooking here....
Marti> is children...IF we decide we want them...
Marti> aren't they entitled to have a mom and pop...
EFK> !
Marti> rather than mom and one of her friends? GA
Myself> ef ga
Myself> <then me>
EFK> I would have kids whether I was married or not. I'm not talking
about a "friend."
EFK> I'm talking about my mate whether we had the "piece of paper" or
not, the commitment is the same. And re: self confidence,
you're as confident as you tell yourself you are. ga
Myself> ok.
Marti> !
Myself> first - parents make a whole nother topic - but
Myself> marriage per se doesn't make parents any more than does the
biology of sex
Myself> marti on ! and back to me
Myself> ga
Marti> ok....the "piece of paper"....
Marti> makes it legal in the eyes of the court...
Marti> if your mate decides he wants to split....
Marti> even if he admits paternity....
Marti> judges don't give as much support money to...
Marti> "illegitimate" children....
Marti> I think they are entitled to the legality...
Marti> love is wonderful....and I'm not talking about being...
Marti> good parents or bad partents...but I think children...
Marti> should be made to feel they are "legal"...just my feeling. GA
Myself> good points marti
Myself> and the legal issue is very important
Myself> indeed, but strictly speaking - parents are those who raise
and love you
Myself> which often has little to do with the marital status of the
parent figures.
Marti> <agreed>
Myself> also, I think this current generation is far too ready to
split and seems to be
Myself> for ever looking for a way out if things don't go quite
right.
JOEY> True, John.
Myself> sure, kids deserve parents, n I don't think a kid is any less
Myself> legit <regardless of man made laws>
Myself> just cause the parents weren't married.
Myself> I think also, that the courts
Myself> are starting to look at a lot of issues differently which is
good.
Myself> like the issue of custody - used to be the mother always got
it except for rare cases - and the man never had a chance to
do anything but pay for the rest of his life.
Myself> ga
Marti> ?
Myself> <been on soap box too long>
Myself> ga
Marti> me?
Myself> ur up marti
Marti> Well...we're getting off the topic a bit..
** HANSOLO just joined CLE - WHY MARRY (5 members now) **
Marti> but just want to say...
Myself> <that happens>
JOEY> hi
John> (Hello folks)
Marti> Hi John!!!!!!!!!!...
Marti> I'm glad things have changed...
Marti> I know many men who are better parents that wome...
Marti> women...
Marti> but I still think...if at all possible...
Marti> if you plan to raise a family....you should have that...
Marti> little piece of paper....
EFK> Sorry Marti. Why?
Myself> my q too
Marti> if kids are not involved...it's strictly between the people...
Marti> lots. of reasons, Liz....
Myself> exactly
Marti> what about social security....
John> ?
Marti> inheritance and such...
EFK> ?!
Myself> what abt it? uncle sam is going to kill the program b 4 our
kids get to it.
Marti> GA
Myself> < john , efk >
Myself> john ga
John> Ok thnx
Myself> <aft john - efk, me>
John> the 'piece of paper' is to protect the offspring.
John> more than anything else.
John> It will also protect the right, such as they are, of the spouse
John> in the event of a death.
John> there is a case in court here cos a woman died and her
'husband' wants executorship of the estate. However she had
filed for a divorce about six months ago.
Marti> <what happened?>
John> They were already separated when she died. The husband
allegedly owes the estate approx. 50,000 now.
Marti> <boooooo>
John> the case just went to hearing on thursday.
Myself> <that will take a while>
John> <I agree Marti>
John> anyway to get back to why get married.
John> Like I said earlier to provide for the children.
John> Ga
Myself> ef ga
EFK> Tks.
EFK> First of all, if it's money you're talking about...
John> <Have u ever tried to concentrate n tis and an Agatha Christe movie?? grin>
EFK> alimony is the price men have had to pay for keeping women
down..
EFK> Secondly, this is not a questin of money at least in my eyes.
John> < I hate to say this but some let themselves be kept.>
EFK> There's nothing wrong with being old fashioned and saying that
the courts have to protect our poor defenseless little ones,
but...
EFK> you talk as though marriage keeps families together, when we see
all around us that this is not so.
EFK> First, staying together for the "sake of the children" is bad
for the children. What happens when they're grown up?
EFK> Second, we live in an age where the phrase "blended family" has
been coined...
Myself> <now we are approaching my points>
Marti> <I agree completely>
EFK> two kids from his first wife, one from my second husband. etc.
How good is that for the kids?
EFK> ga whoever.
Myself> me
Myself> thank you...
Myself> and first - yes, if you are planning to raise a family in the
strict legal sense of things, you should be 'married',
however, having said that...
Myself> let me also say that I lived with my second wife and was
every bit married to her without the "paper
EFK> That's it exactly. Then why did you get married?
Myself> and nothing has changed since getting it.
Myself> Marriage (to my mind) is the committment shared between two
people and the 'legal marriage' is merely an outward sign of
that.
John> ?
Myself> <john next>
Myself> the children will be every bit protected as long as the
family unit chooses to provide for that. As marti pointed
out earlier..
Myself> it is between themselves. If for example two people profess
to be married..
Myself> who can say otherwise as long as they provide for their
family?
** ESG just joined CLE - WHY MARRY (6 members now) **
JOEY> Hi.
Myself> whose business is it any way if they choose to be married
without a 'legal' ceremony.?
EFK> !
Marti> <Hi ESG>
Myself> as for inherritance, that with proper planning will be the
same.
ESG> hi marti
Myself> and social sec will die of old age before I do.
Myself> ef on ! then john ga
EFK> me too, myself
EFK> tks
EFK> I just remembered, in addition to my mother's voice, there was
great social pressure to get married (1974).
EFK> It's so weird. No one tells you directly, but the pressure is
there. Also..
EFK> You have no name for your lover/roommate/paramour?/mate etc. It
was so nice and easy to say "This is my husband."
Myself> <social pressure - peer pressure never fazed me that much>
EFK> As to whose business it is if anyone is married, somehow society
still sanctions the institution. If anything happened to Alex
(heaven forbid), I would never marry again, kids or no kids. ga
Myself> john ga
John> Ok
ESG> - signed off -
** Bob just joined CLE - WHY MARRY (6 members now) **
EFK> (rehi Bob)
John> There are at least two forms of marriage.
Bob> rehi all... back from dumyland
John> the 'legal' and 'religous or moral' type.
Myself> <u look ok 4 a dummy - grin>
John> It seems as if we are geting the two mxied. (Which they are in
the US.)
Bob> (actually it was dumpyland)
John> It also seems as if we agree that the 'legal' form is for the
protection of the offspring and survivng dependent spouse,
whether or not that be male or female.)
John> ga
Myself> ok
Myself> good point - however - marriage is marriage-
Myself> legal, moral or other-
Myself> I mean consider a moment
Myself> adam & eve.
Myself> they were NEVER married as we understand it.
Myself> God created them, put them in a garden and said "do it"
Myself> that's all
EFK> !
Myself> they were society!
John> <marriage is a creation of man!!>
Myself> ef on ! ga
EFK> Religion is not to be confused with mythology, Myself.
John> gotta go folks need shower am going out in abt 15.
Myself> bye john
EFK> Night John.
JOEY> Bye John.
Bob> point is still valid liz
Myself> I make no stand on the story - I simply present it as given.
John> have a good weekend all
Bob> nite
John> - signed off -
EFK> I don't, Myself. It is not given at all!
Myself> the point is important not the nature of the story containing
it.
Bob> !
Myself> bob on ! ga
EFK> ga I'm done.
Bob> the point is, whether you accept the story or not..
Bob> at some point in history, there first appeared creatures you
would consider human...
EFK> (there still are)
Myself> <grin>
Bob> they procreated without any concept of marriage as we
understand it
Bob> the importance of the source (i.e. the story)
Bob> is whether they were monogamous
Bob> & that can't be objectively established
EFK> If there were no other women, how could Adam fool around?
EFK> and vice versa, of course.
Marti> <must have been some incest there also>
Myself> <is easy to be faithful when you have no choices huh?>
Bob> within a generation or 2, I'm sure the opportunity was there
EFK> Are you equating marriage and sex? Tsk tsk.
Myself> hell no
EFK> Bob?
Myself> they aren't even related except that some married people do
it.
Bob> (I wish a co-worker of mine were here... he could argue the
theology *very* pursuasively)
Myself> theology per se is not this sig's topic.
Bob> not at all, liz...
Bob> however...
Bob> marriage - sex = best friends
EFK> I'm missing the point, then.
Myself> <Goldie Hawn & Burt Reynolds - good flick>
Bob> (best friends + sex = marriage ?)
Myself> not necessarily bob
EFK> Ah, now you may have something.
JOEY> Can be a disaster.
Myself> The point in Marriage is that two people make independent
choices on the way things will be. Then they decide whether
Bob> independent or inter-dependent?
Myself> or not to enter into the 'institution' of marriage.
Myself> However, they can be just as married without it and its only
their own business.
Myself> a bit of both bob.
Myself> the man made rules
EFK> man-made, indeed.
Myself> regarding marriage came much later in mans history and was
Bob> indeed, liz!
Myself> originally intended to serve to strengthen the family
Myself> and social structures.
Myself> In this so called 'modern' age it serves as little more than
Bob> which has historically proved to be a positive feature
Myself> a legal strangle hold on people wanting to 'cut their losses'
when times aren't good enough for them.
Bob> !
Myself> ga bob
Bob> I have to begin disagreeing, John...
Myself> ga
Myself> <devils advocate can be an interesting role>
Bob> you're falling into the trap of thinking of historical times as
somehow less advanced, more primitive
Bob> technology has advanced, people have stayed pretty much the same
Myself> that is true enough
Bob> human nature (judging by history) is pretty much the same now as
in prehistoric times
EFK> If you believe in human nature, that is.
EFK> Which I don't
Bob> so, if marriage and the structures it supports had a valid
function then, the institution porbably has a more valid
function than a myopic look-ahead type view would seem to
indicate
Bob> e.g.
Myself> yes, it no doubt does.
Bob> during my lifetime, the institution of marriage was widely
assailed actively during the 60's
Bob> we're now seeing a backlash in terms of...
Bob> unstable, stressful relationships, troubled kids,
Myself> <next>
Bob> pandemic diseases, etc.
Bob> ga
Myself> ok
Myself> points taken....
Myself> basically, marriage does some other things so far hinted at..
EFK> (I can take a hint)
Myself> and that is it provides a certain feeling of security, and
importance to the people involved.
Myself> admittedly, not everyone is cut to be married and they should
follow their own course
Bob> !
Myself> but there are those who need that in many respects. It says
simply 'I belong'
Myself> ga bob
Bob> (finishing previous thought)
Marti> <I agree Myself>
Bob> the lesson was that once again people let technology (the pill)
blind them to the other practical aspects of something it had
taken many generations to learn & build upon
Bob> other issue is...
Bob> there is a more abstract value to be gained by the institution,
though it is not very popular these days
Bob> that is the daily experience of balancing the needs of the
individual with the common goals and attendent submission of the
ego to those goals
Bob> unpopular because it's trendy in psychobabble circles to assume
that self-involvement must come before all else
Bob> ga
JOEY> !
Myself> ok.
Myself> joey ga
JOEY> I only have one thing to say.....
JOEY> People usually get married because they love each other......
JOEY> and want to spend the rest of their life with the other
person....
Myself> <right>
JOEY> Whether it is legal or not doesn't matter.
RBS>> suggested topic "what is love"
EFK> How romantic <swoon>
JOEY> g
EFK> !
JOEY> ga
Myself> ef ga
Myself> <good suggestion rbs>
EFK> Love is not enough.
Myself> <also true>
JOEY> true
EFK> Sex is not enough
EFK> Kids are not enough.
JOEY> wellllll
EFK> If people only realized how much work "spending the rest of your
life with someone" was, they'd think about it more...
Myself> common interest isn't enough either.
Myself> that is very true
Myself> and then maybe fewer people would get divorced.
EFK> I realize I think too much, but that's why I didn't feel the
*need* to get married. I would have felt married regardless of
the ceremony...
Bob> all are enough *IF* they are shared common goals, worked at
equally
JOEY> It's work, but not bad work!
EFK> But Alex needed it, and I love him, so I did it for him. After
all, I did want to spend the rest of my life with him <grin>
Myself> sometimes it's the pits joey
EFK> No, not the pits.
JOEY> I know, John, I know.
Bob> too many people get married when they're *in love* with someone,
not when they *love* someone
EFK> Just very VERY hard work.
EFK> Bob, you're a genius.
Myself> close anyway
JOEY> They get married before the infatuation is over.
Bob> duh, say what?!?
EFK> Of course. Joey is right. They should wait until the "rush"
goes away and then decide.
Bob> but...
Bob> they're bombarded by the *rush*
EFK> (it goes away)
Myself> that is where the decisions come in. which you don't make
well when your head is not in gear.
EFK> If the rush didn't go away, we'd all starve to death.
Bob> they see hours every day where people meet, fall in love (sic) &
make commitments between the titles & the closing credits!
Myself> I'll drink to that.
EFK> <pouring>
Bob> note:
Myself> <thnx dear>
Myself> <next>
Bob> these people they see rarely have money prob's, pet peeves,
sexual dysfunctions, b.o., morning mouth, etc.
EFK> <grin>
Bob> & if they do... they get divorced just as fast as they got
involved!
JOEY> All in half an hour, too.
Bob> (or move on to a new partner)
EFK> Unless they stay in love and it turns to real love.
EFK> That's a chance we all take.
Myself> bob - done?
Bob> considering the propaganda we're bombarded with, it's a miracle
there are any stable relationships left at all! (there sure
aren't too many in the land where the stories come from)
Bob> ga
Myself> exactly and to make a point
Myself> from Liz's earlier comments abt the voices saying she had to
get married..
Myself> look at the stories we were 'sold' in our early education...
Myself> remember Dick and Jane?
EFK> Vaguely
Myself> they were the prototype of the married couple...
EFK> sexist propaganda
Marti> <I remember dick and Jane>
JOEY> Me too.
Myself> they lived in nice little white houses
Myself> with picket fences and kind neighbors.
Myself> cute little dogs etc.
EFK> (See Spot run.)
Bob> (I prefer chain link... no painting)
EFK> (Run, run, run)
Myself> they had nothing at all to do with the real world where
pickets were laborers trying to get a decent wage from greedy
bosses...
Myself> they had no 'race' trouble - hell I don't recall thet they
ever met a black person.
Myself> and how did that house get paid for? who knows, it was
always theirs.
Myself> <right??>
RBS>> or greedy individuals who exepcted a living irregardless of the
economy
Myself> and what did they do when they grew up?
Myself> of course, they married each other and
Myself> perpetuated the structure.
Myself> and then there was cinderella and that prince
JOEY> Well, DickV was independently wealthty.
EFK> <hehe>
Myself> they lived 'hapilly ever after'
EFK> !
JOEY> And Jane loved it.
Myself> with ravaging hordes trying to conguer their kingdom
Myself> etc
Bob> in my book, dick came out of the closet, while Jane was a leader
of A.A. and M.A.D.D.after her 3rd divorce
Myself> ga efk
Myself> <cute bob>
EFK> My parents are still blissfully (almost always) happy after 37
years...
EFK> In all fairness to my mother's pressure, I had very good role
models for marriage right there in the house. How could I not
get married when they set such a good example? ga
Bob> !
Myself> that is perhaps the most important reason why the idea stayed
with you.
Myself> lots of folks don't have the necessary role models to follow
Myself> bob ga
Bob> question: what were they doing right?
Myself> <most things no doubt>
EFK> yes.
Bob> I think the one thread you'll find in most happy long-term
relationships...
Bob> is priorities
Bob> what do each put first?
EFK> And they fell in love at 14. That's 43 years
Myself> <each other if they lasted this long>
Bob> if *both* honestly put the maintenance of the relatiopnship &
the happiness of the other first, it'll generally work
EFK> Absolutely. They'd do anything for each other. And my father
is impossible to live with (he's a lot like me) <hehe>
Bob> NOTE: this include ahead of careers & indiviual egos!
JOEY> Definitive word, Bob. Both.
Myself> <really goes without saying>
Bob> necessary word, joey!
Bob> I personally feel that the women's movement, which so many men
decry, has helped a lot inthis regard
Myself> so why get married? because you both want to that's why.
Bob> not that it's made things better... it hasn't
EFK> Ta dah. Case closed.
Bob> but it has pointed out to men, by example, the effects & cost of
putting other things in your life ahed of your family
Myself> <wouldv'e made that point earlier - but would've been a short co>
Bob> ga
Myself> that is also true bob
EFK> What about people who don't do what they want?
Myself> xpln pls?
EFK> Like I was telling Jane and Marti the other day...
Bob> this was the position of the unsatisfied housewives before the
liberation
EFK> I just discovered that I generally don't consider what I *want*
when I make a decision.
Bob> I know I don't...
EFK> I'm too analytical, and I don't follow my feelings.
EFK> Care to comment?
Bob> !
Bob> sure
Myself> I often don't get to do things I think I want
Bob> I also always make plans around others in my family
Myself> but is ok if everything else seems to work out.
Bob> in all fairness, I get my way about as much as others...
Myself> often by the time I think of it again, it really wasn't that
important anyway.
Bob> true john
Myself> bob ga
Bob> re: feelings
Bob> returning to psychobabbly <retrieving favorite soapbox> feelings
are over-rated
Bob> they are great, sure
Bob> they can be enjoyed, sure
EFK> !
Bob> but if you don't at least *try* to make them subservient to your
intellect, you're destined to be a basket case, or irresponsible at
best
Bob> ga
EFK> I don't think you understand what I meant. Let me explain...
EFK> When Alex wanted to get married,
EFK> I weighed his feelings...
EFK> security, money, sex, children etc.
EFK> I never asked myself what did I *want*.
EFK> Does that clarify it?
Bob> !
EFK> ga
Myself> yes <but I didn't know u then <giggle>
Myself> bob ga
Bob> liz, you have to!
EFK> I have to?
Marti> <Gotta run...night all...hugs to everyone>
Bob> it's part of the commitment...
Myself> <not really>
Bob> nite m
EFK> Night Marti. Come back soon!
JOEY> Nite Marti, I am drooping, too.
Bob> one last thought b4 I have to run, too...
JOEY> Eyes, that is.
Marti> <hahaha>
Bob> on the insidiousness of psychobabble: once you do elect to
exercize your intellect, you then are encouraged to analyze
yourself into a Woody Allen-esque state of ineffectuality
Bob> with that, I must be off for a bit...
Marti> - signed off -
Bob> <grin>
EFK> Bye Bob. Don't babble too much.
Bob> I may be back... will see
Bob> nite all
EFK> Take care.
JOEY> Nite bob
Bob> bye
Bob> adios
Bob> au revoir
Bob> ciao
Bob> adieu
Bob> auf viedersehen
Bob> adio
Bob> sayonara
Bob> shalom
Bob> <looking for cyrillic keys> da svedanya
Bob> - signed off -
JOEY> I need to go too.
Myself> U know liz, u didn't ask urslf what u wanted, but u
considered it
EFK> Bye Joe.
EFK> How, John?
Myself> well, you obviously wanted to spend time <indeterminate amount> with him..
EFK> yes,
Myself> and in considering his feelings and wants/needs...
Myself> you evidently considered that you wanted to meet them.
EFK> I never thought I was so unselfish. But I guess you proved me
wrong!
Myself> what you did do was to neglect consideration of whether or
not your want not to marry
Myself> was of greater import.
JOEY> Nite all.
EFK> Night Joe.
Myself> in fact, you put your need not to marry ahead of his need to
be.
Myself> behind that is
Myself> got my tenses mixed again
JOEY> - signed off -
EFK> Thanks for the thought. I appreciate it.
Myself> ur wlcm
Myself> and thanx for the topic. worked out ok for just a few of us.
