Path: utzoo!mnetor!uunet!oddjob!ncar!boulder!sunybcs!bingvaxu!vu0112 From: vu0112@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Cliff Joslyn) Newsgroups: comp.ai Subject: Re: Free Will & Self Awareness Message-ID: <1191@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu> Date: 9 May 88 18:22:01 GMT References: <770@onion.cs.reading.ac.uk> <1177@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu> <10942@sunybcs.UUCP> <4543@super.upenn.edu> <1179@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu> <31337@linus.UUCP> Reply-To: vu0112@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Cliff Joslyn) Distribution: comp Organization: SUNY Binghamton, NY Lines: 37 Keywords: randomness responsibility In article <31337@linus.UUCP> bwk@mbunix (Kort) writes: >I was doing fine reading Cliff's rejoinder to Lloyd's comments until >I came to this part: > >>>We can't demonstrate true randomness in present day computers; >>>the closest we can come (to my knowledge) is to generate a string >>>of numbers which does not repeat itself. [Lloyd] > >>This is not possible in a von Neumann machine. [Cliff] > >I was under the impression that a simple recursion (or not-so-simple >if one is a fan of Ramanujan) can emit the digits of pi (or e or >SQRT(2)) and that such a string does not repeat itself. > >I think what Cliff meant is that a von Neumann machine cannot emit >a string whose structure cannot be divined. Hmm, I suppose you're right. I was thinking of your typical psuedo-random process whose cycle length was a function of the size of the seed. I forget the impact on the argument at this point: it seems it would rest on the epistemic grounds of determining a truly random string from a simply chaotic one. My impressions is that this is not always possible. Food for mailer Food for mailer Food for mailer Food for mailer Food for mailer -- O----------------------------------------------------------------------> | Cliff Joslyn, Cybernetician at Large | Systems Science, SUNY Binghamton, vu0112@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu V All the world is biscuit shaped. . .