Path: utzoo!utgpu!water!watmath!clyde!att!osu-cis!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!mailrus!nrl-cmf!ames!pasteur!ucbvax!CONFUSION.PRINCETON.EDU!eho From: eho@CONFUSION.PRINCETON.EDU (Eric Ho) Newsgroups: comp.sys.xerox Subject: not quite the last word Message-ID: <8805111509.AA01730@confusion.Princeton.EDU> Date: 11 May 88 15:09:54 GMT Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU Organization: The Internet Lines: 59 ++> Date: Wed, 11 May 88 08:09 EST ++> From: JAY FERGUSON++> To: @RELAY.CS.NET:info-1100@SUMEX-AIM.STANFORD.EDU ++> Mmdf-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at RELAY.CS.NET ++> Subject: not quite the last word ++> X-Vms-To: IN%"@relay.cs.net:info-1100@sumex-aim.stanford.edu" ++> ++> I just can't let Christopher have the last word... I have worked on ++> Exploerers, Symbolics, Suns and MicroVaxs but have found no machine ++> that comes close to the Xerox. Why? Well, I will grant you it is not ++> the performance of the hardware. I would like to point out that I have ++> not had any major performance problems solving complex problems. We ++> would all like to have a 100 mips on our desk. Most performance ++> problems within AI and symbolic processing are due to poor design ++> and architecture of the solution! ++> ++> The characteristics that make the Xerox great is the environment. NO ++> other environment approaches the integration of useful programming ++> tools or as well a thought out interactive environment. I constantly ++> observe engineers spending 5 to 20 times as long building systems ++> in other environments as it would take in Interlisp. ++> ++> When you look at the price, $20-25k last time I checked, it is still ++> the most economical environment to do serious AI. The 1186 hardware ++> is incredibly dependable and you will not find better service ++> anywhere! You can't even buy the new Micro-Explorer in a reasonable ++> configuration for less than than $25k! ++> ++> I have given Xerox the highest recommendation that I can - I bought ++> one for myself. One of the best investments that I have ever made. ++> ++> Jay Ferguson ++> ++> p.s. If anyone out in net land wants to sell thier 1186's for ++> parts I would be glad to hear from you. I have had mine ++> for almost three years and it has only recently started ++> to show signs of age. Well, all LISP machines' strength is in their superior environment - that's one of their hallmarks anyway - nothing new. Basically, you've only 2 different kinds of environment - the East coast and the West coast. They all have their various virtues and weaknesses but I wouldn't say that the Xerox's environment is superior to that found in the Symbolics Genera environment - the Xerox is definitely more intuitive I must agree but then there are other things in the Genera environment that one couldn't find in the Xerox environment (or at least not yet). Then of course there are many other things both environments share - afterall the inventors of both environments came from the same kind of grad. schools (well, more or less). It is interesting to note that many of the user interface stuff (overlapping recursive windows and pop-up menus) first came up in the 60's in MIT's Machine Architecture Lab (now called Media Lab), then of course some of their grad. students there went to work for PARC afterwards. Life is tough (for Xerox and Symbolics I guess) - superior programming environments will soon no longer be for the rich and famous. regards. -eric-