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From: 39clocks@violet.berkeley.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac
Subject: Re: APDA - any satisfied customers?
Message-ID: <6092@jade.BERKELEY.EDU>
Date: Sun, 29-Nov-87 23:30:25 EST
Article-I.D.: jade.6092
Posted: Sun Nov 29 23:30:25 1987
Date-Received: Wed, 2-Dec-87 22:54:55 EST
References: <1228@runx.ips.oz> <7943@steinmetz.steinmetz.UUCP> <2073@dasys1.UUCP>
Sender: usenet@jade.BERKELEY.EDU
Reply-To: 39clocks@violet.berkeley.edu ()
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Lines: 93
Keywords: APDA monopoly ripoff bashing
Summary: Whither APDA

In article <2073@dasys1.UUCP> raylau@dasys1.UUCP (Raymond Lau) writes:
>In article <7943@steinmetz.steinmetz.UUCP>, hallett@falstaff.steinmetz (Jeff R Hallett) writes:
>> 
>> Also, another really ludicrous point is the Apple MWP.  If I understand the
>> APDA ads correctly, you buy MPW for $200 or $150.  However, to really do 
>> anything, you need to buy the compiler for another $150 (or so).  How
>> STUPID!!! They should at least charge a little more for MPW and then give you
>> a choice of the languages.
>> 
>> The nice thing is that they are selling Multifinder for 17.50.  That may make
>> membership worthwhile ($20 + $17.50 = $37.50 instead of $49)
>> 
>> Jeff
>
>MPW for 200 includes the assembler...  So you can do something with it...
>
Actually, selling MPW separately is a good idea.  And the fact that the MPW
shell is such a great programming environment only adds to this.  You should
think of the MPW shell as an editor (a good one in the IBM PC world, brief,
will cost you $200) with a lot of fancy tools (and assembler) thrown in.  Third
party developers such as AZTEC, Consulair, Megamax, TML (but probably not
ThINK or Borland) can use the MPW shell as a base for competitive - maybe even
superior - compilers.  These companies should easily be able to provide 
their compilers as MPW tools for less than the $150 that APDA is charging 
for each of Apple's, especially if they throw in a library or two with a few
useful routines.
But back to the problem, which is, APDA's monopoly on Apple development
products.  There is no advantage to and no reason why APDA should have sole
distribution rights to final versions of Apple software.  I know, I know, the
whole idea of APDA was to provide a means by which developers could get their
hands on 'state uvda art' software before the documentation is printed and all
the bugs have been worked out.  Some might even think that it's neat to get
photocopies of half finished documentation with hand scribbled notes along 
with the software for $275 (which is what you paid if you were on the ball and
purchased the MPW shell v2.0B1 from the April 87 APDAlog).  Interestingly, 
this purchase came with a promise of 'final' documentation, which has since
been changed (APDAlog - October 87) to 'If you want the future final documents
you will need to purchase those separately when they become available'. 
 
Somewhere along the line the price was also dropped to $200 but I guess the
extra $75 I paid doesn't cover cost of a 'final document' (I should add to
these ramblings that I probably wouldn't mind the draft documentation if it
wasn't so atrocious; The paper used for the photocopies is of lower grade than
that used by Apple in the Software Supplement days and it tears out of a binder
too easily; There are missing charts and screen prints so not all of the 
examples are clear; There is no, count em, en oh, fu~{ing index supplied, so
it is painfully difficult to look things up.  How much could it possibly cost
to produce a index? - I wonder what they are using for document preparation.)

Back to the distribution of final version software.  Why doesn't Apple simply
distribute this stuff via the normal retail channels and let APDA deal with
the alphas, betas, gamas and upgrades?  In my opinion, I would have rather
received the printed (final) documentation for MPW v1.0 and notes describing
the differences in the new version (v2.0 - commando, new tools, new shell
features, etc.).  It probably wouldn't even be embarassing to sell a package
like this in the stores (I doubt many are buying v1.0 now that v2.0 is out
anyway).  I say, turn this stuff over to Claris for starters.  That way we
will get finished products and something new, product support.

Despite all of this I renewed my membership to monAPDAly...Why?  Because I
realize that it is the only way I will be able to leagaly get a copy of 
MPW v3 - which Apple says will have a source level debugger - sounds hot!
 
I'm getting tired but it would probably be in the best interest to all 
developers, commercial and hobbiest, to voice their views about APDA as 
an organization (and concept).  Here are some other topics worthy of discussion:

	o Should APDA charge a membership fee in light of the fact that
	  they sell for a profit and accept advertisers in APDAlog?
	o How much money is APDA making any way and what are they doing with 
	  it?
	o How close to finalization (I realize that MPW 2.O will not be final
	  before v3.0 is available in beta form) should beta/draft software
	  /documentation be to be concidered acceptable for distribution?
	o Is the APDAlog a magazine or a catalog? 
	o Who's running the show anyway?

>No, the 17.50 is not for MultiFinder.  It is for the development package, which
>includes the tech info on MF.  If you want MF, you'll have to buy their version
>of the system software, which runs for about the same price, if not less.
>Of course, you don't get the unneeded users' manual...
>
>BTW, the MF pack is the same one sent around the developers...so I've been
>told.  As usual, when I joined up, it was too late.  But the technotes are
>valuable enough...
>
>
Actually, $17.50 will buy you System Software v 5.0 (aka Multifinder, and
confirmation that laserwriters are selling Macs) - check pg 29 of the 11/87
APDAlog. It comes with release notes, developer information and a list of 
known bugs.

Peter Marinac		'I think it's in that pile...'