Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!mnetor!uunet!husc6!mit-eddie!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!bcsaic!rwojcik From: rwojcik@bcsaic.UUCP (Rick Wojcik) Newsgroups: comp.ai,sci.lang Subject: Re: Language Learning (a Turing test) Message-ID: <2913@bcsaic.UUCP> Date: Wed, 25-Nov-87 12:39:19 EST Article-I.D.: bcsaic.2913 Posted: Wed Nov 25 12:39:19 1987 Date-Received: Sun, 29-Nov-87 15:58:36 EST References: <8986@shemp.UCLA.EDU> <1125@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu> Reply-To: rwojcik@bcsaic.UUCP (Rick Wojcik) Followup-To: sci.lang Organization: Boeing Computer Services AI Center, Seattle Lines: 27 Keywords: Goal Based Summary: Tests of fluency should be made by native speakers. Xref: mnetor comp.ai:1167 sci.lang:1726 In article <2060@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu> Paul W. Placeway writes: >On the other hand, I also know many adults who can learn language >after language, after... to a point of _fluency_ (inc. robust >phonetic, phonological, syntactic, semantic, and pragmatic >understanding). Could you give a citation or two? > > -- Paul There is a standing challenge in the L2 community to find a single person who has acquired native fluency in a foreign language in adulthood. The judge of this can only be native speakers of the language in question. Stories about people who learn "language after language...to a point of fluency" are not sufficient. What you consider fluent for another language is not the point. (What I propose is a variation of Turing's test for artificial intelligence.) Here is a case in point. My wife learned French by study+immersion in young adulthood. She has achieved fluency to the point where she can fool other French speakers into thinking she is French--but not a speaker of the listener's dialect. This deception is almost never maintained in extended conversations. An accent is always detected. She learned Spanish in her early 30's and is quite impressive at it. Native Spanish speakers always hear an accent, but English learners of Spanish seldom do. They think she has achieved native fluency. -- =========== Rick Wojcik rwojcik@boeing.com