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From: rwojcik@bcsaic.UUCP (Rick Wojcik)
Newsgroups: comp.ai,sci.lang
Subject: Re: Language Learning (a Turing test)
Message-ID: <2913@bcsaic.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 25-Nov-87 12:39:19 EST
Article-I.D.: bcsaic.2913
Posted: Wed Nov 25 12:39:19 1987
Date-Received: Sun, 29-Nov-87 15:58:36 EST
References: <8986@shemp.UCLA.EDU> <1125@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu>
Reply-To: rwojcik@bcsaic.UUCP (Rick Wojcik)
Followup-To: sci.lang
Organization: Boeing Computer Services AI Center, Seattle
Lines: 27
Keywords: Goal Based
Summary: Tests of fluency should be made by native speakers.
Xref: mnetor comp.ai:1167 sci.lang:1726

In article <2060@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu> Paul W. Placeway writes:
>On the other hand, I also know many adults who can learn language
>after language, after... to a point of _fluency_ (inc. robust
>phonetic, phonological, syntactic, semantic, and pragmatic
>understanding).  Could you give a citation or two?
>
>		-- Paul
There is a standing challenge in the L2 community to find a single
person who has acquired native fluency in a foreign language in
adulthood.  The judge of this can only be native speakers of the
language in question.  Stories about people who learn "language after
language...to a point of fluency" are not sufficient.  What you consider
fluent for another language is not the point.  (What I propose is a
variation of Turing's test for artificial intelligence.)

Here is a case in point.  My wife learned French by study+immersion in
young adulthood.  She has achieved fluency to the point where she can
fool other French speakers into thinking she is French--but not a
speaker of the listener's dialect.  This deception is almost never
maintained in extended conversations.  An accent is always detected.
She learned Spanish in her early 30's and is quite impressive at it.
Native Spanish speakers always hear an accent, but English learners of
Spanish seldom do.  They think she has achieved native fluency.
-- 

===========
Rick Wojcik   rwojcik@boeing.com