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From: edwards@uwmacc.UUCP (mark edwards)
Newsgroups: comp.ai,sci.lang
Subject: Re: Language Learning (anecdotes)
Message-ID: <2048@uwmacc.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 4-Dec-87 13:39:13 EST
Article-I.D.: uwmacc.2048
Posted: Fri Dec  4 13:39:13 1987
Date-Received: Wed, 9-Dec-87 05:06:42 EST
References: <1966@uwmacc.UUCP> <12400009@iuvax> <1117@uhccux.UUCP>
Reply-To: edwards@unix.macc.wisc.edu (mark edwards)
Organization: UW-Madison Academic Computer Center
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Xref: mnetor comp.ai:1189 sci.lang:1748

In article <2999@bcsaic.UUCP> rwojcik@bcsaic.UUCP (Rick Wojcik) writes:
:In article <2360@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu> paul@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (Paul W. Placeway) writes:
:>
:>A seven year old child has just spent 7 years, of 365 days/year, 12-18
:>hours/day of language practice; most adults do not spend anywhere near
:>this amount of effort learning a new language unless they have spent
:>years of time in the new culture.  Thus most adult language learners
:>do not 'count' in such a comparison.  Of those adults who have been
:
:Let us limit ourselves to cases of adult immersion in a foreign
:language.  Even trained phoneticians can't seem to rid themselves of an
:accent.  A case in point is Dr. Lehiste, whom you mentioned in a
:previous note.  She has an extremely sharp mind, a good memory, and more
:knoweldge of phonetic detail than 99.999(etc.)% of the human population.
:She has lived in the US for several decades.  She may be a busy woman,
:but her business is language.  Why does she still speak with an accent?

   So.  Her main point of study was the phonetic detail (according to
   you), not how to speak english without an accent, or not even to
   learn english. 

: The fact remains that no
:amount of practice or immersian can make an adult the equal of a child.

 What fact? It seems to me what you are saying is that the observed
 evidence shows that no adult can lose their native accent. Which is
 like saying "That man listens only to jazz because that is all I hear
 him listening to".

 Just because there is no observed evidence does not prove your theory.
 I say because any child can learn his native language any adult can
 learn the childs native language also. My proof is that any adult can
 do what ever any child can do.

 On the serious side, what if we taught the adult to use the phonetic
 system of the language (perhaps by using nonsense syllables in that
 language) before letting him see, hear real words. And then insure
 that he picks up the correct accent also. You would also have to 
 teach only in the target language, you don't want him to used his
 native language on anything. Saying anything in his native language
 would result in forty whips with a wet noddle. This would take 
 considerably longer then the present methods, but the results, I 
 predict, will raise some doubt whether or not an adult can learn the 
 language as a child does.

 A big problem with this is proverbs or metaphors. When I am speaking
 japanese, english grammar and semantics kind of creep in and take
 over when my japanese is not adequate. Often this brings laughter
 or consternation. How do you prevent this interference between the
 two languages? I wonder how a child does it? If he does he must have
 some kind of marker marking the grammar and semantics, japanese or english.

 I'm tired of the arguments, it can't be done because it hasn't been
 done in the past. If that were true than there would be a lot less
 Steven Jobs and Bill Gates in the world.

 mark
-- 
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