Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!mnetor!uunet!husc6!bbn!uwmcsd1!uwmacc!edwards From: edwards@uwmacc.UUCP (mark edwards) Newsgroups: comp.ai,sci.lang Subject: Re: Language Learning (anecdotes) Message-ID: <2048@uwmacc.UUCP> Date: Fri, 4-Dec-87 13:39:13 EST Article-I.D.: uwmacc.2048 Posted: Fri Dec 4 13:39:13 1987 Date-Received: Wed, 9-Dec-87 05:06:42 EST References: <1966@uwmacc.UUCP> <12400009@iuvax> <1117@uhccux.UUCP> Reply-To: edwards@unix.macc.wisc.edu (mark edwards) Organization: UW-Madison Academic Computer Center Lines: 61 Xref: mnetor comp.ai:1189 sci.lang:1748 In article <2999@bcsaic.UUCP> rwojcik@bcsaic.UUCP (Rick Wojcik) writes: :In article <2360@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu> paul@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (Paul W. Placeway) writes: :> :>A seven year old child has just spent 7 years, of 365 days/year, 12-18 :>hours/day of language practice; most adults do not spend anywhere near :>this amount of effort learning a new language unless they have spent :>years of time in the new culture. Thus most adult language learners :>do not 'count' in such a comparison. Of those adults who have been : :Let us limit ourselves to cases of adult immersion in a foreign :language. Even trained phoneticians can't seem to rid themselves of an :accent. A case in point is Dr. Lehiste, whom you mentioned in a :previous note. She has an extremely sharp mind, a good memory, and more :knoweldge of phonetic detail than 99.999(etc.)% of the human population. :She has lived in the US for several decades. She may be a busy woman, :but her business is language. Why does she still speak with an accent? So. Her main point of study was the phonetic detail (according to you), not how to speak english without an accent, or not even to learn english. : The fact remains that no :amount of practice or immersian can make an adult the equal of a child. What fact? It seems to me what you are saying is that the observed evidence shows that no adult can lose their native accent. Which is like saying "That man listens only to jazz because that is all I hear him listening to". Just because there is no observed evidence does not prove your theory. I say because any child can learn his native language any adult can learn the childs native language also. My proof is that any adult can do what ever any child can do. On the serious side, what if we taught the adult to use the phonetic system of the language (perhaps by using nonsense syllables in that language) before letting him see, hear real words. And then insure that he picks up the correct accent also. You would also have to teach only in the target language, you don't want him to used his native language on anything. Saying anything in his native language would result in forty whips with a wet noddle. This would take considerably longer then the present methods, but the results, I predict, will raise some doubt whether or not an adult can learn the language as a child does. A big problem with this is proverbs or metaphors. When I am speaking japanese, english grammar and semantics kind of creep in and take over when my japanese is not adequate. Often this brings laughter or consternation. How do you prevent this interference between the two languages? I wonder how a child does it? If he does he must have some kind of marker marking the grammar and semantics, japanese or english. I'm tired of the arguments, it can't be done because it hasn't been done in the past. If that were true than there would be a lot less Steven Jobs and Bill Gates in the world. mark -- edwards@vms.macc.wisc.edu {allegra, ihnp4, seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!edwards UW-Madison, 1210 West Dayton St., Madison WI 53706