Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!genrad!decvax!harpo!floyd!vax135!ariel!houti!hogpc!houxm!ihnp4!cbosgd!cbscd5!pmd From: pmd@cbscd5.UUCP Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: Re: A burden both ways Message-ID: <203@cbscd5.UUCP> Date: Tue, 14-Jun-83 23:10:30 EDT Article-I.D.: cbscd5.203 Posted: Tue Jun 14 23:10:30 1983 Date-Received: Thu, 16-Jun-83 00:20:47 EDT Lines: 93 I feel kind of silly responding to his article; I don't know if you're serious or not. But, assuming you are, or someone reading it thinks you are, I don't want to disappoint you by ignoring it. A challenge to non-believers. Disprove the Nirvana of Buddha, or admit that in fact all that lives is Illusion, and the veracity of the Four Noble Truths. That's right, friends, Larry has converted me to his way of seeing things! I now see that the people who were reported to be witnesses to His miraculous processions were not, as I had believed, simply something made up by later commentators! I see that there is no way that such a thing could have occurred: the TV network news magazines would have jumped all over it! And everyone living then was a bright, educated person, not easily taken in by big-talking Prophets of the Truth who claimed to have witnessed miracles! After all, what possible personal gain could there have been for the early Buddhists? They saw how they were scorned by the Hindus. It would have been much easier to just go back and become good little worshippers of their pagan deities, but NO!! They STUCK with their difficult course, STUCK I say, and WHY DO YOU THINK THAT WAS, my friends? I'LL TELL YOU WHY IT WAS!!! The only reasonable explanation, and this has been supported by many Buddhist lawyers, is that they WITNESSED THE NIRVANA! Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see how the Buddist concept of nirvana can be compared to an event like the resurrection of Christ. Nirvana is a religious concept or experience. As to what actually constitutes nirvana, even Buddists can't completely agree on. So how do you *witness* nirvana? Does it leave any physical evidence? An event like someone rising from the dead could be easily observed by anyone. There would be opportunity for anyone disbelieving to investigate. It's true that many people are willing to suffer and die for their religious beliefs, and this does not make their beliefs true. But it doesn't seem that Jesus disciples were ready to suffer for their beliefs even after witnessing the resurrection. There attitude seems very guarded until the day of Pentecost (Acts 2). Whatever happened there, it seems that the disciples (Peter at least) obtained an understanding of the significance of the events that had just occurred. Jesus died and was buried just outside of Jerusalem. Anyone hearing the disciples proclaiming his resurrection could have examined the evidence for themselves. But instead of the whole thing being laughed off as a hoax, Acts records thousands of people becoming believers (Acts 2:41;4:4;5:14). The primary documents of Christianity can be dated to within a few decades of the actual happenings described in them. The same cannot be said for Buddism. Biographies of Budda appear centuries after the period of which they speak and were composed after the Buddist movement had broken into separate schools. Buddism's primary documents, as we have them, date back no farther than the Christian era, nearly 500 years after its founder's death. [see "Buddist Thought in India" by Edward Conze (pp. 31-33). Conze is a sympathetic Buddist scholar. See also "The History of Buddist Thought" (2nd ed.) by Edward Thomas (p. 1).]. Let the heathen try to disprove that, my friends. Remember that as you walk through this hideous, atheistic pit we call net.religion. Remember that Buddhism STANDS OR FALLS solely on YOUR BELIEF IN THE NIRVANA! And to those who keep their heads in the sand, refusing to recognize the consequences of Avidhya (primal sin) and their own delusions of selfhood, you will be born again and again, EACH TIME FALLING INTO A LOWER CYCLE OF REBIRTH!!! Let's see those Christians match that, my friends. Why, there are documented cases from reliable witnesses that tell of people having hot lead poured in their ears, sexual abuse by vast and hideous demons, and things more grisly even than that. It doesn't matter if you believe this or not. You will be judged by your own illusionary self and thrown into those fiery lakes, so far from Nirvana, unless of course you can disprove this. But you can't. Nyah nyah nyah. So choke on it. Well, I don't think I disproved the existence of nirvana, but I think there is a lot less reason to believe in it than the resurrection of Christ. Tim Maroney P.S. My girlfriend has bet me five dollars that Paul Dubuq will reply to this and say that I am a Buddhist. I wouldn't think of that. I seems, though, that you have a slight leaning toward Hinduism. (Just kidding.) Paul Dubuc