Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utcsstat.UUCP Path: utzoo!utcsstat!laura From: laura@utcsstat.UUCP Newsgroups: net.flame Subject: Re: RE: A Flame at Affirmative Action Message-ID: <656@utcsstat.UUCP> Date: Thu, 9-Jun-83 05:42:31 EDT Article-I.D.: utcsstat.656 Posted: Thu Jun 9 05:42:31 1983 Date-Received: Thu, 9-Jun-83 18:38:06 EDT References: <260@houxj.UUCP> Organization: U. of Toronto, Canada Lines: 101 Larry Welsch, (houxj!welsh) writes: A number of people raise the point that affirmative action may result in "quotas." This is true. So what? Given the assumption that intelligence does not recognize race then it is reasonable to expect that within a given job category the races would have roughly (within 2 standard deviations) the same proportions as in the population. This is not the case. One way of correcting this problem is to have quotas. I DON'T CONSIDER THIS USE OF QUOTAS DISCRIMINATION. The quota is not to restrict entry, but rather to ensure entry. This statement embodies a fallacy which I see a lot. I especially see it in Americans, and it may have to do with years of reciting "All men were created equal". I have yet to discover that "all men were created equal" has any real meaning per say. it seems to be a nice collection of syllables which sound good together but signify nothing. it tends to confuse the issue. When some people talk about "equality" they mean "nobody should make slaves out of anybody else". Others mean "everybody deserves equal opportunity". Still others believe "God gave everybody a soul and we are therefore all subject to God's law and equal before Him." I only wish that people would not use the shorthand 'equal' when they mean one (or more) of these things, for it would make it easier for me to understand them. the problem arises when people mean "everybody is identical" or "every race is identical" or "every race is identical within 2 standard deviations" by 'equal'. this is simply not the case. It is usually possible to convince people that "everybody is identical" is a poor position to take, since some people are obviously smarter or taller or fatter than others. Most people, though, tend to thoughtlessly conclude that "all races are identical". This also is not the case. With every race is a culture, and some cultural traditions. While every race is potentially capable of producing lawyers, doctors, policemen, computer scientists and lumberjacks, some tend to produce more than others. This cannot simply be written off as discrimination by the majority group. Before one cries that discrimination has occurred first one must check to see if there were any *actual people* discriminated against. Recently, the height and weight restrictions were lessened in order that minority groups might be better represented on the police force in Ontario. What happened? A lot of skinny, short, white, males got to be policemen. Very few members of the Chinese community became cops. When the Chinese were asked why this was so, it turned out that very few members of the Chinese community wanted to be cops. It did not fit with their cultural expectations. therefore, on the whole, it is to be presumed that there will be less Chinese policemen proportionately then white policemen. there will be (in Toronto at any rate) more Chinese restaurant owners and small importers. If one is to respect the right of Chinese people to not become policemen if they do not want to, one must conclude that the tales of "Chinese being discriminated against on the police force" due to their lack of representation must have been overstated before the restrictions were lessened. i had this brought home to me when I was in high school and worked on an Indian reservation in Northern Ontario for part of a summer. In this area, the Indians hate the police and the police hate the Indians. Indians are responsible for a lot of crime in the area, and are blamed for even more. The police are the direct representatives of the government which has been screwing the Indians for more than a century. the police hold spot checks on reservations and do house to house checks, looking for alcohol which is not allowed on the reservation. Any Indian can expect to get a fine or even a jail sentence if as much as one bottle of beer is found. This is perfectly legal according to the Canadian government who has declared the reservation "dry". there is no legal recourse, so Indians routinely go into town, get drunk, and throw their empties at the local cops. (Sorry to be so long winded, but this gives some indication of the feelings between the Indians and the police.) While I was there someone connected with Indian Affairs (the Canadian government agency) decided that what was needed was to have Indian members of the police force to act as liason with the Treaty Indians. Naively at the time, I thought that this was a brilliant idea. When I approached Indians I knew, though, it turned out that they all were uninterested in becoming members of the police force. I pointed out the tremendous benefit that (I thought) would be the result of this. Every one of them said "I'm not a traitor." or words to that effect. I still didnt understand. Finally, a ten-year old boy took pity on me and explained it to me. He said: "I'm an Indian. It may not be much, but it is all I have. If I went and became a cop I would be saying I dont want to be an Indian any more. I want to be a White Man with red skin. But I am an Indian and you cant take that away from me. You will never make a White man out of me no matter how you try." Of course I have forgotten the exact words, but that was approximately it. It was pretty hard to admit to a ten year old boy that I was wrong, but I did. All cultures are not equal. All races are not equal. If by saying "all men are equal" you mean that every man is a White man at heart, no matter what the colour of his skin, then you are guilty of discrimination, (albeit unconcsious discrimination in most cases) far worse than any isolated act against individual members of minority groups. laura creighton utzoo!utcsstat!laura