Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Path: utzoo!linus!genrad!decvax!harpo!floyd!vax135!ariel!houti!hogpc!houxm!ihnp4!cbosgd!cbscd5!pmd
From: pmd@cbscd5.UUCP
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Re: A burden both ways
Message-ID: <203@cbscd5.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 14-Jun-83 23:10:30 EDT
Article-I.D.: cbscd5.203
Posted: Tue Jun 14 23:10:30 1983
Date-Received: Thu, 16-Jun-83 00:20:47 EDT
Lines: 93



I feel kind of silly responding to his article;  I don't know if
you're serious or not.  But, assuming you are, or someone reading it
thinks you are, I don't want to disappoint you by ignoring it.

    A challenge to non-believers.  Disprove the Nirvana of Buddha,
    or admit that in fact all that lives is Illusion, and the veracity of
    the Four Noble Truths.

    That's right, friends, Larry has converted me to his way of
    seeing things! I now see that the people who were reported to be
    witnesses to His miraculous processions were not, as I had believed,
    simply something made up by later commentators!  I see that there is
    no way that such a thing could have occurred: the TV network news
    magazines would have jumped all over it!  And everyone living then was
    a bright, educated person, not easily taken in by big-talking Prophets
    of the Truth who claimed to have witnessed miracles!

    After all, what possible personal gain could there have been
    for the early Buddhists?  They saw how they were scorned by the
    Hindus.  It would have been much easier to just go back and become
    good little worshippers of their pagan deities, but NO!!  They STUCK
    with their difficult course, STUCK I say, and WHY DO YOU THINK THAT
    WAS, my friends?  I'LL TELL YOU WHY IT WAS!!! The only reasonable
    explanation, and this has been supported by many Buddhist lawyers, is
    that they WITNESSED THE NIRVANA!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see how the Buddist concept of
nirvana can be compared to an event like the resurrection of Christ.
Nirvana is a religious concept or experience.  As to what actually
constitutes nirvana, even Buddists can't completely agree on.
So how do you *witness* nirvana?  Does it leave any physical evidence?
An event like someone rising from the dead could be easily observed
by anyone.  There would be opportunity for anyone disbelieving to
investigate.

It's true that many people are willing to suffer and die for their
religious beliefs, and this does not make their beliefs true.  But
it doesn't seem that Jesus disciples were ready to suffer for their
beliefs even after witnessing the resurrection.  There attitude seems
very guarded until the day of Pentecost (Acts 2).  Whatever happened
there, it seems that the disciples (Peter at least) obtained an 
understanding of the significance of the events that had just occurred.
Jesus died and was buried just outside of Jerusalem.  Anyone hearing
the disciples proclaiming his resurrection could have examined the 
evidence for themselves.  But instead of the whole thing being laughed
off as a hoax, Acts records thousands of people becoming believers
(Acts 2:41;4:4;5:14).

The primary documents of Christianity can be dated to within a few
decades of the actual happenings described in them.  The same cannot
be said for Buddism.  Biographies of Budda appear centuries after
the period of which they speak and were composed after the Buddist
movement had broken into separate schools.  Buddism's primary documents,
as we have them, date back no farther than the Christian era, nearly
500 years after its founder's death. [see "Buddist Thought in India" by
Edward Conze (pp. 31-33).  Conze is a sympathetic Buddist scholar.
See also "The History of Buddist Thought" (2nd ed.) by Edward Thomas (p. 1).].

    Let the heathen try to disprove that, my friends.  Remember
    that as you walk through this hideous, atheistic pit we call
    net.religion.  Remember that Buddhism STANDS OR FALLS solely on YOUR
    BELIEF IN THE NIRVANA!
    
    And to those who keep their heads in the sand, refusing to
    recognize the consequences of Avidhya (primal sin) and their own
    delusions of selfhood, you will be born again and again, EACH TIME FALLING
    INTO A LOWER CYCLE OF REBIRTH!!!  Let's see those Christians match
    that, my friends.  Why, there are documented cases from reliable
    witnesses that tell of people having hot lead poured in their ears,
    sexual abuse by vast and hideous demons, and things more grisly even
    than that.

    
    It doesn't matter if you believe this or not.  You will be
    judged by your own illusionary self and thrown into those fiery lakes,
    so far from Nirvana, unless of course you can disprove this.  But you
    can't. Nyah nyah nyah.  So choke on it.

Well, I don't think I disproved the existence of nirvana, but I think
there is a lot less reason to believe in it than the resurrection of 
Christ.
    
    Tim Maroney

    P.S.  My girlfriend has bet me five dollars that Paul Dubuq
    will reply to this and say that I am a Buddhist.

I wouldn't think of that.  I seems, though, that you have a slight
leaning toward Hinduism. (Just kidding.)

Paul Dubuc