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From: tim@unc.UUCP
Newsgroups: net.flame
Subject: Re: Don"t equate anti-Zionism with racism
Message-ID: <5388@unc.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 15-Jun-83 14:47:07 EDT
Article-I.D.: unc.5388
Posted: Wed Jun 15 14:47:07 1983
Date-Received: Thu, 16-Jun-83 22:13:30 EDT
References: unc.5379 5941ux.292
Lines: 103


	OK, Tim, we meet head on.

I'm very sorry to hear that.  Despite the fact this is net.flame, I
don't like to see unnecessary confrontation in any situation (except
pure entertainment -- games, etc.) Take	the chip off your shoulder
before replying, all right?

	In my article on discrimination	as faced by Jews, I
	mentioned that Jews often are confronted with a
	hostility towards Zionism, our national	movement.  In
	your reply, you	state:

		"You could start by not	assuming that
		the only possible basis	for disliking
		Zionism	is racism....  it is a leading
		reason [but] it	is not my reason."

	Soon after, you	come right out with:

		"I dislike Zionism because it is
		racism,	both in	the abstract and in
		the concrete.  Israel is a segregated
		nation,	in which racial	laws provide,
		for example, economic sanctions
		against	Jews who marry Gentiles.  The
		Israelis claim to be "God's chosen
		race" and make racially-transmitted
		claims about their rightful ownership
		of certain tracts of land.  This is
		racism,	no more, no less."

	Aside from the obvious contradiction, that's a pretty
	nasty series of	accusations.  (Aren't you the one who
	says that the burden of	proof is on the	accuser?)
	Israel certainly has its social	problems, but they are
	not nearly so sinister as you depict.  I'd like	to see
	another	country	faced with as much external hostility
	come up	with a better record.

Admittedly, mis-reading	me could lead you to believe there is a
contradiction here.  I will attempt to clarify.	 My apologies for not
making myself entirely clear before.

Anti-semitism is not the only possible basis for disliking Zionism.  A
very large number of people who	dislike	Zionism	have anti-semitism as
their primary motivation.  However, I am not an	anti-semite.  My
reason for disliking Zionism is	that it	is racism, and I am against
racism in any form.

As for my claims about Israel, do you deny their truth?	 If you	ask, I
will provide references, but I don't feel that this is required	in
this case.  The	things I said are publicly known.  As you say,
however, the burden of proof is	on me, and I am	willing	to fulfill it
if you think that I am not telling the truth.

	You have provided a perfect example of the kind	of
	public anti-Zionist diatribe that seems	so fashionable
	these days.  Zionism is	central	to the beliefs and
	needs of the vast majority of the Jewish people.
	Anti-Zionism is	a denial to the	Jews of	their right to
	nationhood.

Now you're getting the idea.  I	do not believe that any	person has the
right to set apart a piece of the Earth	and say, "This land belongs to
my race." If that is not racism	on the part of the land-claimer, then
what is	it?  It	sure as	Hell fits my definition, and I'm sure as Hell
against	it.

	It's one thing to disagree with	a country's policies.
	It's something entirely	different to single out	one
	country	for public flagellation.  Jews do not like to
	be singled out for "special treatment" by non-Jews.
	Singling the Jews out as the only people not entitled
	to their nationhood is a particularly ugly example of
	racism.	 It becomes even more objectionable when we
	are accused of racism in the process.

If it's	any comfort to you, I am against all racism.  I	only singled
out Zion because you claimed that opposition to	Zion implied anti-
semitism.  Knowing that	this is	not true, I sought to correct your
mistake.  If you'd come	out in favor of	apartheid in South Africa, I
would have talked about	that instead.  The Jews	are not	the only race
not entitled to	nationhood.  No	race is	entitled to nationhood.

	I started by pointing out the kind of attitudes	that
	Jews are often confronted with.	 Some people think
	we're crying wolf.  Given the kind of hostility	we've
	had to face, are we really being all that unrealistic?
	I don't	think so.  The purpose of this reply is	not to
	impugn anybody's motives but to	ask for	an increased
	understanding and sensitivity.

If you would stop making yourself into a victim, Dave, you might find
that these things come easily.	I am not attacking you,	I am
disagreeing with you.  My honest and sincere feeling is	that Israel is
a racist state by any reasonable definition of racism.	I've given my
reasons, and am	prepared to back them up.  Let's hear something	a
little better than "Everyone is	picking	on me" in your reply this
time.  I could also do without being called a racist, since it is
clear that there is no racism in my motivation.

Tim Maroney