Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!genrad!decvax!harpo!floyd!vax135!ariel!houti!hogpc!houxm!houxk!houxj!welsch From: welsch@houxj.UUCP Newsgroups: net.flame Subject: Re: A Flame on Affirmative Action (A reply to Ms. Creighton) Message-ID: <265@houxj.UUCP> Date: Sat, 11-Jun-83 12:37:53 EDT Article-I.D.: houxj.265 Posted: Sat Jun 11 12:37:53 1983 Date-Received: Tue, 14-Jun-83 02:40:11 EDT Lines: 87 Laura Creighton makes some very good points that I would like to respond to. I did not mention equality or God in my argument in support of affirmative action programs, even if they involved quotas. First lets talk about equality. I said that "Given the assumption intelligence does not recognize race then ...". I believe that intelligence is uniform across the races and I am prepared to argue that issue. I also believe it is possible that I am wrong, but I haven't seen any convincing evidence. Nor does Ms. Creighton present any convincing evidence. If anybody on the net does have convincing evidence that this is not true then please share it with us. I am willing to learn. IQ and aptitude testing in this country have a rather unfortunate history of being misused to discriminate against ethnic groups and immigrants. Let's talk about God. I didn't use God in my argument. I also believe that God can be and often is used on both sides of disagreements. For example, God created us all equal, but some of us are chosen by God. I prefer to leave God and/or Gods out of arguments and trust that She will provide evidence to the correct side. Another way of putting this is: God gave us all brains, lets use them. Lets now move on to "everybody is identical" or "every race is identical" or "every race is identical within 2 standard deviations." First I agree that if every person is identical then every race is identical. Second I agree that if every race is identical then every race is identical to within two standard deviations. I never said or assumed that all people are the identical in any way shape or form or that all people are equally intelligent. I did not use the chain of reasoning that you propose. I agree that the chain of reasoning is false in the assumption that all people are identical or have identical intelligence. How did I arrive at the conclusion that intelligence is uniform across the races? The method I used is induction. No, I haven't done any studies, but I have read about many studies that have been done. All studies I have seen that purport to show that one race is more intelligent than another have been seriously flawed or the data has been misinterpreted. For example, the data Shockley uses shows only a slight difference in intelligence between the races. Whether or not that difference is statistically significant or due to differences other that intelligence is debatable. There is also a great deal of evidence that shows intelligence is uniformly distributed. Lets move on to the question of culture and occupation based on cultural traditions. I concede that a goal of affirmative action is to change the culture of the US such that people do not base decisions, such as hiring, firing, etc. on race or sex. It is currently part of the culture in the US to base such decisions on race or sex. All the sub-cultures that make up US culture will have to change. The decision to effect this change was not made by majority vote, but rather by a slow and painful process that started in England before the US revolution of 1776 and is related to a belief that people should be treated as individuals. Let's next move on to quotas, Indians and police. First, I propose the problem you mention of getting Indians to join the police was not a cultural problem. The Indians just weren't as dumb as the Indian Affairs committee thought they were. I'd be willing to bet money that the Indians would have loved to be on a committee that monitored police activity and enforced the law on the police. Second, I suggest that affirmative action and specifically a quota would have solved the problem. The quota would not be on the Indians, but on the police. The police would have to change their actions to convince to the Indians to join. Without the Indians joining the police would not meet their quota and cease to exist. In other words the problem was not with the Indians, but with the police. Of course the little boy who said, "You will never make a White man out of me no matter how you try." is right. It was the attempt to enforce a "White man's" law that was wrong. Finally I agree that races are not identical. But who is to judge that one race is "better than" or "more equal" than another. Culture is a different matter. I am a member of the culture of the US and I see much that should be changed and I am going to support those changes. Racial and sexual discrimination is a part of US culture whose elimination I look forward to. Larry Welsch houxj!welsch