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From: laura@utcsstat.UUCP
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Re: General replies
Message-ID: <723@utcsstat.UUCP>
Date: Sun, 26-Jun-83 09:51:28 EDT
Article-I.D.: utcsstat.723
Posted: Sun Jun 26 09:51:28 1983
Date-Received: Sun, 26-Jun-83 11:31:09 EDT
References: <331@qubix.UUCP>
Organization: U. of Toronto, Canada
Lines: 115

Actually this is about reforming religion but Larry Bickford and many
other people who sent me mail have misunderstood me. I am going to
try again.

First of all you have to understand something about the Roman Catholic
Church. Its been araound a LONG time. Not as long as some other faiths,
but as long as Christianity has been around. One of the great claims
of the Catholic Church is Apostolic Succession. To simplify it means
that Jesus made Peter a priest with the power to create other priests
and all our priests are decended from priests that can trace their line
back to Jesus. The coferring of the power is done through a huge ritual
(the ritual of anointing of a priest) and specificly through the laying
of hands upon the new priest.

This is very important. Once you make a priest you cannot unmake him.
All you can do is determine that if he ever says a mass after he has
been "defrocked" unless he has been reconciled with the Church then it
is a mortal sin.

In the bad old days before Vatican Council 2 Roman Catholics used the
argument that Protestantism dirived from Luther or some other leader,
didnt ever sway any of the Catholic bishops, and since only bishops
can make priests, the Protestants were essentially blashpheming with
their unordained ministers. They would all rot in Hell QED.

In addition to this you must remember that all through the middle
ages every scholar and his dog was examining "religion" and looking
for explanations and new ways to understand. The Midievals had to
put up with discovering that the world was round, and that the
earth was not the centre of the universe, and whether the universe was
finite (how many angels can dance on the head of a pin), and the decline
of Aristotelian physics. As these Truths became known, the Roman
Catholic theology had to change to accomodate them. For the most part
they did a good job about scientific things. (anybody who believes
in Galileo's imprisonment and torture should read THE SLEEPWALKERS
and then all the references that you can get quoted there).

What you end up discovering is that Catholicism has a little bit
to do with sources (like the Bible) and a whole lot to do with
various people's interpretation of the sources, and interpretation
of interpretaion of the sources. Perhaps most notable among the
people whos ideas moulded Catholicism was Saint Thomas Aquinas,
but this one could be hotly debated.

The end result was that there have been several councils where
there has been a consolidation of "what is now the true dogma of
the Church". One of the few things which has survived numerous
councils is the idea that the Blessed Virgin Mary was conceived
without sin. The Bible never mentions this. It is a product of the
rational which goes --- Jesus was without sin (see the Bible and
definition of God). Jesus could not therefore have dwelt within
a sinful body (this is a tautology to those who first proposed it)
therefore Mary was conceived without sin.

This one has the sanction of the Pope. Currently the belief is that
the Pope has only made 2 infalible statements (ie guaranteed by God
and the Pope's own Holiness as Pope):

	1: the Pope can make infallible statements 
	2: The Blessed Virgin Mary was conceived without sin.

If this is beginning to make some sort of sense then you can see why
catholic theology can be a lot of fun. On the other hand, there is
an awful lot of dogma in the Catholic Church which is based on 
convenient tautologies and even more on "The Devine Nature of God".

The Last Massive housecleaning of the dogma of Catholicism was called
Vatican Council 2. After Vatican Council 2 many things changed.
masses were now said in the vernacular, not Latin. The Altar Rails,
which used to separate the people from the Tabernacle were removed so
that people could be seens as coming "closer to God" when they went
to Mass, not seen as being locked away from Him.

And it became *wrong* to say that allthe Protestants and Jews and
other Heathen were going to Hell. Ther was some provision for God
in His mercy letting people who lived good lives into heaven and
the whole question of Limbo (Limbo -- a place, not Pergatory,
Heaven or Hell where non-believers especailly not-baptised non-
believers go. it is reputed to be very boring) and whether or not
that place existed.

A whole lot of Saints went away -- some because they werent very
*good* and others because they werent at all (they were merely
folk legends about non-existant people).

A lot more went down. Everybody realed. this is more than 15 years
ago, and everybody is still realing. And right now a lot of Catholics
are not following Vatican 2 because they still want to be able to say
that the Protestants and Jews and whatnot all go to Hell. You can see
why this might be a popular position in Northern Ireland, but I am
telling you that it is happinging in Canadian Churches as well.

people dont want to change. they also have a way out. Theoretically
Catholics profess their Fath with the Apostles or the Niocene Creed.
Both of these very old prayers say "i believe in this ..."
and once you have said it all and believed in it you have a very
basic definition of Catholic Faith.

And it doesnt say you have to go to Mass on Sundays or believe that
the Jews arent going to Hell.

okay, you get the picture? the Top brass in the RC Church say one thing,
the middle brass say another, and at the grass roots level an awful
lot of people wish that there had never been a Vatican Council 2 so
they could go back to doing things 'the old way'.

The question was HOW DO YOU CONVINCE THE GRASS ROOTS FOLK THAT HATING
PROTESTANTS IS A BAD THING WHEN FOR MANY YEARS IT WAS A GOOD THING?

I dont know. You get lost in the beuracracy as you go further up the
Catholic Hierarchy. You dont have to petition for new reforms -- the
old ones havenet even taken effect yet. 

Laura Creighton
utzoo!utcsstat!laura