Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!philabs!seismo!harpo!floyd!vax135!ariel!hou5f!orion!houca!hogpc!houxm!hocda!spanky!burl!duke!unc!tim From: tim@unc.UUCP Newsgroups: net.flame Subject: Re: Don"t equate anti-Zionism with racism Message-ID: <5388@unc.UUCP> Date: Wed, 15-Jun-83 14:47:07 EDT Article-I.D.: unc.5388 Posted: Wed Jun 15 14:47:07 1983 Date-Received: Thu, 16-Jun-83 22:13:30 EDT References: unc.5379 5941ux.292 Lines: 103 OK, Tim, we meet head on. I'm very sorry to hear that. Despite the fact this is net.flame, I don't like to see unnecessary confrontation in any situation (except pure entertainment -- games, etc.) Take the chip off your shoulder before replying, all right? In my article on discrimination as faced by Jews, I mentioned that Jews often are confronted with a hostility towards Zionism, our national movement. In your reply, you state: "You could start by not assuming that the only possible basis for disliking Zionism is racism.... it is a leading reason [but] it is not my reason." Soon after, you come right out with: "I dislike Zionism because it is racism, both in the abstract and in the concrete. Israel is a segregated nation, in which racial laws provide, for example, economic sanctions against Jews who marry Gentiles. The Israelis claim to be "God's chosen race" and make racially-transmitted claims about their rightful ownership of certain tracts of land. This is racism, no more, no less." Aside from the obvious contradiction, that's a pretty nasty series of accusations. (Aren't you the one who says that the burden of proof is on the accuser?) Israel certainly has its social problems, but they are not nearly so sinister as you depict. I'd like to see another country faced with as much external hostility come up with a better record. Admittedly, mis-reading me could lead you to believe there is a contradiction here. I will attempt to clarify. My apologies for not making myself entirely clear before. Anti-semitism is not the only possible basis for disliking Zionism. A very large number of people who dislike Zionism have anti-semitism as their primary motivation. However, I am not an anti-semite. My reason for disliking Zionism is that it is racism, and I am against racism in any form. As for my claims about Israel, do you deny their truth? If you ask, I will provide references, but I don't feel that this is required in this case. The things I said are publicly known. As you say, however, the burden of proof is on me, and I am willing to fulfill it if you think that I am not telling the truth. You have provided a perfect example of the kind of public anti-Zionist diatribe that seems so fashionable these days. Zionism is central to the beliefs and needs of the vast majority of the Jewish people. Anti-Zionism is a denial to the Jews of their right to nationhood. Now you're getting the idea. I do not believe that any person has the right to set apart a piece of the Earth and say, "This land belongs to my race." If that is not racism on the part of the land-claimer, then what is it? It sure as Hell fits my definition, and I'm sure as Hell against it. It's one thing to disagree with a country's policies. It's something entirely different to single out one country for public flagellation. Jews do not like to be singled out for "special treatment" by non-Jews. Singling the Jews out as the only people not entitled to their nationhood is a particularly ugly example of racism. It becomes even more objectionable when we are accused of racism in the process. If it's any comfort to you, I am against all racism. I only singled out Zion because you claimed that opposition to Zion implied anti- semitism. Knowing that this is not true, I sought to correct your mistake. If you'd come out in favor of apartheid in South Africa, I would have talked about that instead. The Jews are not the only race not entitled to nationhood. No race is entitled to nationhood. I started by pointing out the kind of attitudes that Jews are often confronted with. Some people think we're crying wolf. Given the kind of hostility we've had to face, are we really being all that unrealistic? I don't think so. The purpose of this reply is not to impugn anybody's motives but to ask for an increased understanding and sensitivity. If you would stop making yourself into a victim, Dave, you might find that these things come easily. I am not attacking you, I am disagreeing with you. My honest and sincere feeling is that Israel is a racist state by any reasonable definition of racism. I've given my reasons, and am prepared to back them up. Let's hear something a little better than "Everyone is picking on me" in your reply this time. I could also do without being called a racist, since it is clear that there is no racism in my motivation. Tim Maroney