| Strange Blue & White G3 issues with booting 10.4 Install or 10.3.9. [message #287483] |
Thu, 09 April 2015 22:56  |
Scott Holder
Messages: 32
Registered: August 2012
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Hey folks,
Recently picked up a free Blue & White G3, which for whatever reason
came with an IX Twin Turbo instead of the ATI card it should have come
with. It wasn't too big a deal, got Mac OS 9 installed and running just
fine, but never could get OS X running as apparently it really, really
doesn't like the IXTT. This part wasn't a big surprise.
Successfully got a GeForce FX 5200 flashed to Mac, and it works fine in
OS 9 (inasmuch as they do, which seems to involve issues changing
resolution, but that isn't important right now) but so far I've had zero
luck getting Tiger working. I've had no luck getting a 10.4 install disc
to boot at all. I first swapped in an IDE DVD drive and tried with my
original rather old DVD. I get the gray screen with the apple logo, and
after the spinny bit spins for awhile I get a blank black rectangle in
the middle of the screen. I obtained a CD version set of install discs
and swapped the original CD drive back in, and got the same result.
Swapped another DVD drive in, and tried a different Tiger DVD and got
the same result yet again. Just for completeness sake I also tried a
random IDE CD-ROM drive I had lying around, with the same results. Also
tried a couple different IDE cables. I've also tried with XPostFacto
even though it shouldn't be necessary, and all I've managed to get from
it is the gray screen with with the white slashed circle error. I even
tried using the successfully installed 10.3 as mentioned below to backup
the 10.4 install DVD to a spare hard drive, and the same boot failure
happens. I even tried a SCSI CDROM with the SCSI card that came with it,
same issue.
Somewhat out of desperation, I dug up a copy of 10.3, and it installed
and ran just fine. GeForce works perfectly with resolution changes, in
general it was fine. I updated to 10.3.9, and now it kernel panics on
boot. I've repeated this a couple or three times and have gotten the
same result.
Few more details about the computer: It started out as a Rev. 2 mobo
350mhz, I've upgraded it to a 500mhz G4 successfully by updating the
firmware and using the G4 Enabler. Since having the issues above, I've
returned it to stock and disabled the G4 Enabler just in case it was
having problems with the G4. No change, same issue. This should rule out
outdated firmware as a cause though, plus this same G4 was working fine
with 10.4 in a Beige G3 previously.
Hard drive configuration doesn't seem to make any difference - I've
tried booting the 10.4 discs with nothing else plugged in other than the
optical drive, and I've tried all the optical drives on both IDE
channels.
PRAM battery tests good, and from some googlings about it sounds like
the PRAM battery shouldn't be impacting this at the stages I've gotten
to. On the off chance it is something related, I've tried every variety
of pram zap, open firmware nvram reset, cuda button pushing and holding,
etc I can find.
I've tried several combinations of RAM, using both the original RAM it
came with (which I believe was 128mb) and the PC133 256mb sticks I've
been using to upgrade it to 768mb. These same sticks work fine in my
Beige G3, even with 10.4.x, so I'm reasonably sure they work fine. I've
done various things in OS 9 to try to use and stress the RAM, and I've
had no trouble with it running fine for days/couple weeks at a time as
well.
The crash details on verbose boot vary. 10.4 gives no real great
indication of what's gone wrong. The only things I see that look like an
error is "localhost lookupd[38]: Can't load
/System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/NetInfo.framework/Resource s/lookupd/Agents/DS.bundle/DS "
followed by some messages about "optimization changed from TIME to
SPACE" back and forth. I did also see a message flash by that mentioned
something about "hdik: IOLit timed out waiting for driver to load".
Seems to have something to do with HD images? I'm pretty sure I've seen
all these messages come across my working 10.4 on the Beige G3, but I
could be wrong.
10.3.9 on the other hand throws an error: "/etc/rc: line 286: 135 Hangup
SystemStarter -gr ${VerboseFlag} ${SafeBoot}". I've done a lot of the
typical troubleshooting things, disk scans, permissions repairs, etc
with no change. Single User mode boots fine, but neither Safe Mode nor
normal loads. And Single User mode isn't much fun.
Not sure if these two things are related or not, but it's just weird
that this system is having problems with both things it's supposed to
support. I even tried LeopardAssist for funsies despite lots of reports
of issues, and not surprisingly it wouldn't boot the installer either
even with the G4 in. About the only thing I haven't tried is the old
trick of installing it on the Beige G3 and moving the drive over; I
wasn't sure if that was a good idea or not due to its unsupported nature
and hacks necessary to get 10.4 working. Sadly, I have no other Macs
capable of booting 10.4 natively, and since I don't have any other
working video cards I can't verify if the video card might be causing
problems somehow. I've also successfully booted the MintPPC Linux
installer, and operated it fine up to the point of actually installing
it, so again I'm reasonably confident the machine itself is working
fine. I just don't really need yet another Linux box here, but a Mac OS
X 10.4 box would be novel.
At a loss at this point, unless there's just something wrong with the
logic board or some other issue. Anybody got anything else I can try?
I'd really love to get 10.4 going on this for tenfourfox and other
modern conveniences.
Thanks!
Scott
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| Re: Strange Blue & White G3 issues with booting 10.4 Install or 10.3.9. [message #287484 is a reply to message #287483] |
Thu, 09 April 2015 23:21  |
peterhaas
Messages: 80
Registered: September 2012
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> Hard drive configuration doesn't seem to make any difference - I've
> tried booting the 10.4 discs with nothing else plugged in other than the
> optical drive, and I've tried all the optical drives on both IDE
> channels.
Starting with the Blue & White, Apple adopted the HP/Compaq patented
method of performing a "roll call" on attached IDE media.
This patent involves the cable always being made up for Cable Select,
hence the three different colors on the connectors (the pins inside the
connectors are different, too).
However, the drives do not have to be made up for Cable Select, these can
be Master and Slave, or Master only, although it probably makes the most
sense to use Cable Select and be done with it.
For, should you chose to use Master and/or Slave, you have to be right 100
percent of the time, whereas should you chose to use Cable Select, it DOES
NOT MATTER what the drives are plugged as as long as BOTH are plugged for
Cable Select.
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| Re: Strange Blue & White G3 issues with booting 10.4 Install or 10.3.9. [message #287548 is a reply to message #287483] |
Sat, 11 April 2015 01:58 |
Kris Tilford
Messages: 133
Registered: August 2012
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If you have access to any external HD enclosure, the easiest solution is probably to clone an installed OS X 10.4 System onto the HD and transfer the drive into the G3, remembering to hold the “Shift” key on the 1st boot to reinitialize the hardware and rebuild all the caches so that it’s bootable on the new hardware configuration. Even if your G3 10.4.11 System has XPostFacto extensions installed, it won’t matter, you can manually remove those later if you want to get back to a more pristine System.
If your dead set on booting the installer I suggest using the CD, and NOT the entire CD set of 4, but ONLY the CD #1 bootable installer. If you get it to boot, select “Customize” and deselect EVERYTHING except the “OS X Base System” and then install. This “minimal” installation reduces chances of screw-ups and freezes during the boot process. Further, almost every application is already outdated and needs to be upgraded. If Safari isn’t installed via this minimal installation, insert the CDs until you can find under the Installation>Packages folder the Safari.pkg and double-click to install (I think it’s installed as part of the minimal, but perhaps not?).
I don’t think the G4 firmware or G4 CPU represent any impediment to installation, so there’s no need to “go slow” with the G3 stuff.
If you’ve got any bootable 10.4 System on a HD, for instance, either the original or cloned Beige G3 HD, you can place the installer DVD or CD into the B&W and then navigate to the Installation>Packages>OSInstall.mpkg file and double-click it to bring up an Installer that doesn’t require being booted in the installer, but you must target this installer at ANOTHER HD, not the HD you’re currently booted from. This will install a clean System on the other HD. Sometimes it gives an error message near the end, and perhaps stalls or says the installation failed, but normally the installation did NOT fail, and the HD will boot and complete the setup process normally. Then run Software Update to get to 10.4.11.
With a G4 CPU and an FX 5200 you should be able to enable both Quartz Extreme and Core Image on the FX 5200 over PCI. I’ve used both the FX 5200 & FX 6200 PCI with QE & CI on several hackintosh. If I remember correctly, you need to modify a framework by eliminating the “AGP” from a .plist file. There’s the tweak program “PCI Extreme” also, but I don’t think it enables Core Image? I know for certain I’ve had both QE & CI working with PCI FX5200.
I think the B&W may also support 10.5.8 with the G4 CPU and FX 5200? Just something to think about.
Best luck!
Kris Tilford - Topeka, KS
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| Re[2]: Strange Blue & White G3 issues with booting 10.4 Install or 10.3.9. [message #287909 is a reply to message #287548] |
Thu, 16 April 2015 07:43 |
Scott Holder
Messages: 32
Registered: August 2012
Karma: 0
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Member |
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------ Original Message ------
From: "Kris Tilford" <ktilford1@cox.net>
To: g3-5-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: 4/11/2015 1:58:58 AM
Subject: Re: Strange Blue & White G3 issues with booting 10.4 Install or
10.3.9.
> If you have access to any external HD enclosure, the easiest solution
> is probably to clone an installed OS X 10.4 System onto the HD and
> transfer the drive into the G3, remembering to hold the “Shift” key on
> the 1st boot to reinitialize the hardware and rebuild all the caches so
> that it’s bootable on the new hardware configuration. Even if your G3
> 10.4.11 System has XPostFacto extensions installed, it won’t matter,
> you can manually remove those later if you want to get back to a more
> pristine System.
I finally got some time together to do this. Unfortunately, with both a
clean-installed and working 10.4, and a 10.4 installed and updated
10.4.11 on the Beige G3 moved to the B&W do the same thing. On a regular
boot, it spins for a bit and shows a black rectangle. Safe mode boot
sits at the gray apple and spins forever. I can only assume at this
point that there's something it really doesn't like with the hardware.
Since it does seem to boot Single User Mode, I'm thinking something with
the hacked video card. I found a source online for the original ATI Rage
128 Pro PCI video card that it should have come with. Soon as it arrives
I'll give that a shot.
>
> If your dead set on booting the installer I suggest using the CD, and
> NOT the entire CD set of 4, but ONLY the CD #1 bootable installer. If
> you get it to boot, select “Customize” and deselect EVERYTHING except
> the “OS X Base System” and then install. This “minimal” installation
> reduces chances of screw-ups and freezes during the boot process.
> Further, almost every application is already outdated and needs to be
> upgraded. If Safari isn’t installed via this minimal installation,
> insert the CDs until you can find under the Installation>Packages
> folder the Safari.pkg and double-click to install (I think it’s
> installed as part of the minimal, but perhaps not?).
I tried all the various options for CD, DVD, etc boots and never even
got to the point of installing. I just want the thing to run, so I'm not
too picky on the specifics :)
>
> I don’t think the G4 firmware or G4 CPU represent any impediment to
> installation, so there’s no need to “go slow” with the G3 stuff.
>
> If you’ve got any bootable 10.4 System on a HD, for instance, either
> the original or cloned Beige G3 HD, you can place the installer DVD or
> CD into the B&W and then navigate to the
> Installation>Packages>OSInstall.mpkg file and double-click it to bring
> up an Installer that doesn’t require being booted in the installer, but
> you must target this installer at ANOTHER HD, not the HD you’re
> currently booted from.
So far, the only OS X I've gotten to boot at all is the original 10.3.
Updating it to 10.3.9 or even 10.3.3 renders it unbootable. Nothing
10.4-related will boot either, whether the installer or a
preinstalled-elsewhere disk.
<snip>
> With a G4 CPU and an FX 5200 you should be able to enable both Quartz
> Extreme and Core Image on the FX 5200 over PCI. I’ve used both the FX
> 5200 & FX 6200 PCI with QE & CI on several hackintosh. If I remember
> correctly, you need to modify a framework by eliminating the “AGP” from
> a .plist file. There’s the tweak program “PCI Extreme” also, but I
> don’t think it enables Core Image? I know for certain I’ve had both QE
> & CI working with PCI FX5200.
This is my ultimate goal. I've been poking around in plists to make sure
this video card's vendor/product ID are properly added. At the moment I
need to put the card back in my PC just to verify the numbers, but
haven't been motivated yet. For funsies I tried the QE hack to no
success as yet.
>
>
> I think the B&W may also support 10.5.8 with the G4 CPU and FX 5200?
> Just something to think about.
I'm still debating what to do with 10.5. So far there doesn't seem to be
any applications I want to run that require it, and reports say it
sounds like it's noticeably more sluggish on it. We'll see. I have a
couple spare HDs, plus partitions, so I can always give it a try without
breaking too much.
>
> Best luck!
Thanks!
>
> Kris Tilford - Topeka, KS
Scott
>
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| Re: Strange Blue & White G3 issues with booting 10.4 Install or 10.3.9. [message #287943 is a reply to message #287909] |
Thu, 16 April 2015 11:28 |
Bruce Johnson
Messages: 319
Registered: August 2012
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Senior Member |
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> On Apr 16, 2015, at 4:43 AM, Scott Holder <scott@iamscott.net> wrote:
>
> On a regular boot, it spins for a bit and shows a black rectangle. Safe mode boot sits at the gray apple and spins forever. I can only assume at this point that there's something it really doesn't like with the hardware. Since it does seem to boot Single User Mode, I'm thinking something with the hacked video card. I found a source online for the original ATI Rage 128 Pro PCI video card that it should have come with. Soon as it arrives I'll give that a shot.
Hold down command-V and see what is running at the console where it stalls out. This may give you a clue as to what’s happening.
--
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
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| Re: Strange Blue & White G3 issues with booting 10.4 Install or 10.3.9. [message #287951 is a reply to message #287483] |
Thu, 16 April 2015 13:15 |
Kris Tilford
Messages: 133
Registered: August 2012
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Senior Member |
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On Apr 16, 2015, at 6:43 AM, Scott Holder <scott@iamscott.net> wrote:
>
> I finally got some time together to do this. Unfortunately, with both a clean-installed and working 10.4, and a 10.4 installed and updated 10.4.11 on the Beige G3 moved to the B&W do the same thing. On a regular boot, it spins for a bit and shows a black rectangle. Safe mode boot sits at the gray apple and spins forever. I can only assume at this point that there's something it really doesn't like with the hardware. Since it does seem to boot Single User Mode, I'm thinking something with the hacked video card. I found a source online for the original ATI Rage 128 Pro PCI video card that it should have come with. Soon as it arrives I'll give that a shot.
You probably should be using Verbose boot option so you can see what the problem is. You can do this by holding the Cmd-v keyboard keys at startup; or by booting into Open Firmware using the Cmd-Opt-o-f keys and then at the command prompt type the command:
set-defailts <Return>
setenv boot-args -v <Return>
reset-all <Return>
where <Return> means hit the Return key after entering the command.
I don’t think the video card is likely the issue, although it’s possible. Since the Rage cards don’t support Quartz Extreme they’re pretty useless for Tiger 10.4 or Leopard 10.5. Ideally the optimal video card is a flashed nVidia GeForce FX5200 that supports both QE & Core Image, but any of the Radeon PCI cards are also acceptable for enabling Quartz Extreme, and you may be able to enable Core Image by tweaking the Framework info.plist to allow Core Image over PCI.
Once you enable verbose boot, the stall point in the dialog will give some idea for what the actual problem is...
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| Re[2]: Strange Blue & White G3 issues with booting 10.4 Install or 10.3.9. [message #288003 is a reply to message #287951] |
Thu, 16 April 2015 19:59 |
Scott Holder
Messages: 32
Registered: August 2012
Karma: 0
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Member |
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------ Original Message ------
From: "Kris Tilford" <ktilford1@cox.net>
To: g3-5-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: 4/16/2015 1:15:03 PM
Subject: Re: Strange Blue & White G3 issues with booting 10.4 Install or
10.3.9.
> On Apr 16, 2015, at 6:43 AM, Scott Holder <scott@iamscott.net> wrote:
>>
>> I finally got some time together to do this. Unfortunately, with both
>> a clean-installed and working 10.4, and a 10.4 installed and updated
>> 10.4.11 on the Beige G3 moved to the B&W do the same thing. On a
>> regular boot, it spins for a bit and shows a black rectangle. Safe
>> mode boot sits at the gray apple and spins forever. I can only assume
>> at this point that there's something it really doesn't like with the
>> hardware. Since it does seem to boot Single User Mode, I'm thinking
>> something with the hacked video card. I found a source online for the
>> original ATI Rage 128 Pro PCI video card that it should have come
>> with. Soon as it arrives I'll give that a shot.
>
> You probably should be using Verbose boot option so you can see what
> the problem is. You can do this by holding the Cmd-v keyboard keys at
> startup; or by booting into Open Firmware using the Cmd-Opt-o-f keys
> and then at the command prompt type the command:
>
> set-defailts <Return>
> setenv boot-args -v <Return>
> reset-all <Return>
Sorry, I should have included that detail in the followup. The verbose
output is the same as in the original message with the 10.4 boots. No
change at all, more or less.
>
> where <Return> means hit the Return key after entering the command.
>
> I don’t think the video card is likely the issue, although it’s
> possible. Since the Rage cards don’t support Quartz Extreme they’re
> pretty useless for Tiger 10.4 or Leopard 10.5. Ideally the optimal
> video card is a flashed nVidia GeForce FX5200 that supports both QE &
> Core Image, but any of the Radeon PCI cards are also acceptable for
> enabling Quartz Extreme, and you may be able to enable Core Image by
> tweaking the Framework info.plist to allow Core Image over PCI.
At the moment, I'd just rather like it to work. My Beige G3 was pretty
decent in 10.4 with its built-in graphics, so I'm sure it'd work
decently in this. I may look into a Radeon if I can't get this GeForce
card working. We'll see how it turns out with the Rage. I don't really
understand what cause the video card could have either, especially since
it works in 10.3 fully, and 10.3.3 in safe mode (but not regular mode).
All I can figure if this is the problem is 10.3 has some kind of older
driver that works while newer ones trip over something in the card.
We'll see.
Scott
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| Re: Strange Blue & White G3 issues with booting 10.4 Install or 10.3.9. [message #288046 is a reply to message #288003] |
Fri, 17 April 2015 12:27 |
Bruce Johnson
Messages: 319
Registered: August 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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> On Apr 16, 2015, at 4:59 PM, Scott Holder <scott@iamscott.net> wrote:
>
> At the moment, I'd just rather like it to work. My Beige G3 was pretty decent in 10.4 with its built-in graphics, so I'm sure it'd work decently in this. I may look into a Radeon if I can't get this GeForce card working. We'll see how it turns out with the Rage. I don't really understand what cause the video card could have either, especially since it works in 10.3 fully, and 10.3.3 in safe mode (but not regular mode). All I can figure if this is the problem is 10.3 has some kind of older driver that works while newer ones trip over something in the card. We'll see.
10.3 -> 10.4 was a huge update; tons of stuff both above and under the hood changed. ‘Worked in 10.3’ is not a reliable guide to hardware issues in 10.4/
--
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
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