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Re: After the storm, hopefully [message #419173 is a reply to message #419168] Sat, 18 February 2023 08:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
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Senior Member
Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 14:13:20 -0700
>>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> (or make EVs an improvement on ICs, which is a very long shot).
>>>
>>> In many ways they already are a big improvement on ICEs. In fact
>>> apart from the range available with a full tank and being cheaper I can't
>>> think of a single advantage for IC based cars.
>>
>> Range is a biggie, also recharging time.
>
> Not a particular biggie - ranges are approaching 500 miles;
> that's a good 8 to 10 hours of driving time. A stop for
> 30 minutes half-way through for lunch or a picnic at
> a rest area would be a nice break, and you'll get a
> charge while eating.
>
>> Not everyone has access to a
>> charger at home.
>
> That's true today, however even fewer have a gas station
> at their home either. Rather a wash, don't you think?

It will be when I can pull into a charging station around the corner and
get a full charge in five minutes.

>
> Charge times are becoming more competitive with gas tank
> fill times.
>
>> once EVs become more common support infrastructure will
>> start showing signs of stress.
>
> Or the support structures will be built out to prevent
> stress - a significant part of the recently passed
> Infrastructure Investment act.
>
> It's pretty clear that the car manufacturers are all
> on board (simplifies the process of building a vehicle,
> that's for sure).
>



--
Pete
Re: After the storm, hopefully [message #419174 is a reply to message #419169] Sat, 18 February 2023 08:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
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Senior Member
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2023-02-17, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 14:13:20 -0700
>>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> (or make EVs an improvement on ICs, which is a very long shot).
>>>
>>> In many ways they already are a big improvement on ICEs. In fact
>>> apart from the range available with a full tank and being cheaper I can't
>>> think of a single advantage for IC based cars.
>>
>> Range is a biggie, also recharging time. Not everyone has access to a
>> charger at home. once EVs become more common support infrastructure will
>> start showing signs of stress.
>
> Although you can charge at home overnight without needing new hardware,
> all that extra load on the electrical grid will indeed cause problems.
> Here in B.C. we have lots of hydro power, but most new capacity is
> earmarked for LNG production or sales to California.
>
> Another factor that isn't yet fully appreciated is battery life.
> EVs haven't been around long enough for a significant number of
> batteries to wear out, so we have yet to find out exactly what
> is involved in amortizing a $25,000 replacement battery.
>

Yes. It really cuts into the value of a used car. Cars used to fall apart
after five years or so anyway, so it wouldn’t have been a problem in the
‘50s, but my current Honda is coming up on 20 years, and apparently still
has some residual value. then, of course, battery recycling infrastructure
will be needed.

--
Pete
Re: After the storm, hopefully [message #419175 is a reply to message #419172] Sat, 18 February 2023 10:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GreyMaus[1] is currently offline  GreyMaus[1]
Messages: 1140
Registered: February 2013
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2023-02-18, Alexander Schreiber <als@usenet.thangorodrim.de> wrote:
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 22:40:12 +0100
>> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> You can keep using your ICE (in Europe) for years. Till 2050. Then you
>>> won't be able, not because they'll pry it from your cold dead hands, but
>>> because you will not be able to buy petrol or diesel.
>>
>> If it's a diesel then it should be easy enough to run it on home
>> made biodiesel - making instructions and even kits are easily available
>> online, try not to burn down the house.
>
> In principle yes (I mean, the very first Diesel engine ran on peanut oil),
> but there are traps. Biodiesel usually isn't straight up vegetable oil,
> but usually chemically processed vegetable oils (e.g. rapeseed methyl
> ester, aka RME) and that stuff can be decidedly unfriendly to the
> fuel system and the engine (e.g. plastics and metals - with pure RME
> some plastic have shown noticeable degradation and some metals have
> shown corrosion) plus you might end up diluting the engine oil if
> RME is passing by the piston rings and if your engine has a common
> rail fuel injection system, it might not like the changes in lubricant
> property (as it is being lubricated by the fuel).
>
> That's why biodiesel for use in engines not specifically rated for
> 100% biodiesel use (where all the above traps have been defanged by
> appropriate choice of materials and design) is usually used as a mix
> of biodiesel and regular diesel with various mix ratios. Some engine
> manufacturers specify "up to 5% biodiesel".
>
> So will running 100% biodiesel in a diesel engine not rated for kill
> the engine? Most likely not, but you should expect to pay a lot more
> attention to regular servicing and maintenance to spot (and fix) whatever
> issues (e.g. plastic parts of the fuel system degrading) crop up.
>
> Kind regards,
> Alex.


Ah, someone who knows what they are talking about, AKA, agrees with me.

--
greymausg@mail.com
where is our money gone, Dude?
Re: After the storm, hopefully [message #419176 is a reply to message #419173] Sat, 18 February 2023 10:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GreyMaus[1] is currently offline  GreyMaus[1]
Messages: 1140
Registered: February 2013
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2023-02-18, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>
>> That's true today, however even fewer have a gas station
>> at their home either. Rather a wash, don't you think?
>
> It will be when I can pull into a charging station around the corner and
> get a full charge in five minutes.

Speak the correct language. The newspeak would be, achieve a 85% charge
in under an hour. Like torrents, the last %15 can take an long time.
Have a cup of coffee? at somewhere of minimal interest!. How
attractive! `Josephines' in Kilkenny, where they hardly speak English?
It closed down for lack of business.



>
>>
>> Charge times are becoming more competitive with gas tank
>> fill times.
>>
>>> once EVs become more common support infrastructure will
>>> start showing signs of stress.
>>
>> Or the support structures will be built out to prevent
>> stress - a significant part of the recently passed
>> Infrastructure Investment act.
>>
>> It's pretty clear that the car manufacturers are all
>> on board (simplifies the process of building a vehicle,
>> that's for sure).

They are too busy laughing.

>>
>
>
>


--
greymausg@mail.com
where is our money gone, Dude?
Re: After the storm, hopefully [message #419177 is a reply to message #419174] Sat, 18 February 2023 10:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GreyMaus[1] is currently offline  GreyMaus[1]
Messages: 1140
Registered: February 2013
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2023-02-18, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2023-02-17, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 14:13:20 -0700
>>>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > (or make EVs an improvement on ICs, which is a very long shot).
>>>>
>>>> In many ways they already are a big improvement on ICEs. In fact
>>>> apart from the range available with a full tank and being cheaper I can't
>>>> think of a single advantage for IC based cars.
>>>
>>> Range is a biggie, also recharging time. Not everyone has access to a
>>> charger at home. once EVs become more common support infrastructure will
>>> start showing signs of stress.
>>
>> Although you can charge at home overnight without needing new hardware,
>> all that extra load on the electrical grid will indeed cause problems.
>> Here in B.C. we have lots of hydro power, but most new capacity is
>> earmarked for LNG production or sales to California.
>>
>> Another factor that isn't yet fully appreciated is battery life.
>> EVs haven't been around long enough for a significant number of
>> batteries to wear out, so we have yet to find out exactly what
>> is involved in amortizing a $25,000 replacement battery.
>>
>
> Yes. It really cuts into the value of a used car. Cars used to fall apart
> after five years or so anyway, so it wouldn’t have been a problem in the
> ‘50s, but my current Honda is coming up on 20 years, and apparently still
> has some residual value. then, of course, battery recycling infrastructure
> will be needed.
>
Not economic. The world is full of unrecycled lithium Batteries. I wish
there was a way of finding how long your recharge will last in your old
battery, and be careful not to get that battery wet. Bad things happen
when the new batteries get wet.



--
greymausg@mail.com
where is our money gone, Dude?
Re: After the storm, hopefully [message #419178 is a reply to message #419172] Sat, 18 February 2023 11:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 13:33:55 +0100
Alexander Schreiber <als@usenet.thangorodrim.de> wrote:

> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 22:40:12 +0100
>> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> You can keep using your ICE (in Europe) for years. Till 2050. Then you
>>> won't be able, not because they'll pry it from your cold dead hands,
>>> but because you will not be able to buy petrol or diesel.
>>
>> If it's a diesel then it should be easy enough to run it on home
>> made biodiesel - making instructions and even kits are easily available
>> online, try not to burn down the house.
>
> In principle yes (I mean, the very first Diesel engine ran on peanut oil),
> but there are traps. Biodiesel usually isn't straight up vegetable oil,

It never is.

> but usually chemically processed vegetable oils (e.g. rapeseed methyl
> ester, aka RME) and that stuff can be decidedly unfriendly to the

That's the stuff.

> fuel system and the engine (e.g. plastics and metals - with pure RME
> some plastic have shown noticeable degradation and some metals have

Yes some engines need seals replacing - last time I looked into it
Viton seal kits were available for a wide range of engines.

> So will running 100% biodiesel in a diesel engine not rated for kill
> the engine? Most likely not, but you should expect to pay a lot more
> attention to regular servicing and maintenance to spot (and fix) whatever
> issues (e.g. plastic parts of the fuel system degrading) crop up.

Yep - all part of the fun of running an obsolete vehicle. Not too
dissimilar to the problem of five star petrol going away when tetraethyl
lead did - some cars needed it to avoid pinking.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Re: After the storm, hopefully [message #419179 is a reply to message #419173] Sat, 18 February 2023 11:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 06:19:51 -0700
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:

> It will be when I can pull into a charging station around the corner and
> get a full charge in five minutes.

Why would you want to do that if you have a charger where the car
is parked ?

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Re: After the storm, hopefully [message #419180 is a reply to message #419167] Sat, 18 February 2023 11:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Kurt Weiske

To: Peter Flass
-=> Peter Flass wrote to alt.folklore.computers <=-

PF> Range is a biggie, also recharging time. Not everyone has access to a
PF> charger at home. once EVs become more common support infrastructure
PF> will start showing signs of stress.

I read something about the government paying Tesla to open up the
Supercharger network to other cars. Tesla drivers may not like queueing
up behind a Nissan Leaf to charge.

When I had my kitchen remodeled, we tore out the floor, and I noticed I
had a straight path under the floor from my circuit breaker to the
outside wall where my carport is. I had them pull a 220-capable wire and
leave it there, so if I do go electric, most of the legwork is done.

I was looking at the 2023 Prius to replace my 2014 plug-in Prius, but
the $10K dealer markup plus $2K dealer-installed improvements (usually
undercoating) puts the cost of the car in the price of a EV.



.... It's a bold strategy, Cotton, let's see if it plays out for 'em...
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
--- Synchronet 3.20a-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
* realitycheckBBS - Aptos, CA - telnet://realitycheckbbs.org
Re: After the storm, hopefully [message #419181 is a reply to message #419171] Sat, 18 February 2023 11:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Kurt Weiske

To: Ahem A Rivet's Shot
-=> Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote to alt.folklore.computers <=-

AAS> Range is not a biggie! Pretty much every EV on the market has
AAS> more range than anyone sane would drive in a day and way more than
AAS> anyone should drive without a good break.

Things have improved. I remember in 2014 working for a tech company in
Silicon Valley, and Nissan Leaf drivers needed to charge in order to
get home. I'd find a passive agressive post-it note on my car if I was
in a meeting and left my car plugged in 15 minutes after it had
charged.


.... "He who is without oil, shall cast the first rod."-Compressions 8.7:1.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
--- Synchronet 3.20a-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
* realitycheckBBS - Aptos, CA - telnet://realitycheckbbs.org
Re: After the storm, hopefully [message #419182 is a reply to message #419169] Sat, 18 February 2023 11:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 03:02:10 GMT
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> Another factor that isn't yet fully appreciated is battery life.
> EVs haven't been around long enough for a significant number of
> batteries to wear out, so we have yet to find out exactly what
> is involved in amortizing a $25,000 replacement battery.

EVs have been around long enough for us to know that replacing the
battery is not going to happen - it's even less sensible than replacing a
worn out IC engine and very few do that these days. An EV is essentially a
battery on wheels, almost all of the value is in the battery. When the
battery won't hold a useful charge the car is dead.

Most people won't own an EV anywhere near battery end of life, just
as most people don't own an IC car anywhere near engine end of life. It'll
only be those who buy at the bottom of the second hand market (there are
some pretty cheap early Leafs around with degraded batteries) and those who
buy and keep until dead. The heavily driven ten year old Leafs are still
above 505 of the original capacity (or so the ads claim) which makes them
only suitable for short distance runarounds. Modern EVs with their
much bigger batteries should be a lot more useful at ten years old.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Re: After the storm, hopefully [message #419183 is a reply to message #419181] Sat, 18 February 2023 12:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 08:20:00 -0800
"Kurt Weiske" <kurt.weiske@realitycheckbbs.org.remove-z2k-this> wrote:

> To: Ahem A Rivet's Shot
> -=> Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote to alt.folklore.computers <=-
>
> AAS> Range is not a biggie! Pretty much every EV on the market
> AAS> has more range than anyone sane would drive in a day and way more
> AAS> than anyone should drive without a good break.
>
> Things have improved.

A great deal.

> I remember in 2014 working for a tech company in
> Silicon Valley, and Nissan Leaf drivers needed to charge in order to
> get home.

Sure the first generation Leafs had 24kWh batteries and could
barely cover 100km on a charge. Most of the current crop of EVs are at least
in the 50-65kWh range as well as being more efficient than the early Leaf.
Current Leafs are either 40kWh (270km) or 62kWh (385km), many competitors
do a little better on similar size batteries and of course some cars have
much bigger batteries like the electric Ford F150 with a choice of 98 or
130kh.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Re: After the storm, hopefully [message #419184 is a reply to message #419178] Sat, 18 February 2023 13:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
On 2023-02-18, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> Yep - all part of the fun of running an obsolete vehicle. Not too
> dissimilar to the problem of five star petrol going away when tetraethyl
> lead did - some cars needed it to avoid pinking.

Well, this _is_ a group whose charter is the fun of running
an obsolete computer...

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.
Re: After the storm, hopefully [message #419185 is a reply to message #419182] Sat, 18 February 2023 13:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2023-02-18, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 03:02:10 GMT
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Another factor that isn't yet fully appreciated is battery life.
>> EVs haven't been around long enough for a significant number of
>> batteries to wear out, so we have yet to find out exactly what
>> is involved in amortizing a $25,000 replacement battery.
>
> EVs have been around long enough for us to know that replacing the
> battery is not going to happen - it's even less sensible than replacing a
> worn out IC engine and very few do that these days. An EV is essentially a
> battery on wheels, almost all of the value is in the battery. When the
> battery won't hold a useful charge the car is dead.

Auto manufacturers always did have planned obsolescence mastered.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.
Re: After the storm, hopefully [message #419186 is a reply to message #419182] Sat, 18 February 2023 13:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Kurt Weiske

To: Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Re: Re: After the storm, hopefully
By: Ahem A Rivet's Shot to alt.folklore.computers on Sat Feb 18 2023 04:31 pm

AA> only be those who buy at the bottom of the second hand market (there are
AA> some pretty cheap early Leafs around with degraded batteries) and those who
AA> buy and keep until dead. The heavily driven ten year old Leafs are still
AA> above 505 of the original capacity (or so the ads claim) which makes them
AA> only suitable for short distance runarounds. Modern EVs with their

My company has 2 2014 Leafs (leaves?), if memory serves they were listed at 95 miles per charge. They get around 29 now.
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Re: After the storm, hopefully [message #419187 is a reply to message #419186] Sat, 18 February 2023 16:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 10:46:38 -0800
"Kurt Weiske" <kurt.weiske@realitycheckbbs.org.remove-6g3-this> wrote:

> My company has 2 2014 Leafs (leaves?), if memory serves they were listed
> at 95 miles per charge. They get around 29 now.

That sounds about right - listed at 95 but realistically they did
about 60 and now down to 50% capacity.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Re: After the storm, hopefully [message #419188 is a reply to message #419179] Sat, 18 February 2023 16:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Spencer is currently offline  Mike Spencer
Messages: 997
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:

> On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 06:19:51 -0700
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> It will be when I can pull into a charging station around the corner and
>> get a full charge in five minutes.
>
> Why would you want to do that if you have a charger where the car
> is parked ?

It's midnight. I get a call that

+ my grandson is critically ill

+ my business is on fire

+ a landslide/forest fire/toxic spill threatens my home

and I need to go far away *now*. I've been meaning to fill the tank at
the pumps 5 miles away but have put it off and I'm running on fumes.

I always have 10 gal. of preservative-treated gas stowed. I dump it
in and I'm gone.

Can't do that with a battery.

As well, much of the power distribution industry has been converted to
"fix it when it breaks" rather that "maintain to a high standard".
(Known perps: Nova Scotia Power, California's PG&E) As a result, a
widespread outage of long duration may occur at any time due to a
major infrastruture failure. I have that 10 gal. for a buffer. The
general store where I get my gas also has a gen set to power their
pumps, again as a short term buffer but but better than no charge for
an EV.


--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
Re: After the storm, hopefully [message #419189 is a reply to message #419188] Sat, 18 February 2023 17:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Alexander Schreiber is currently offline  Alexander Schreiber
Messages: 8
Registered: November 2012
Karma: 0
Junior Member
Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>
>> On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 06:19:51 -0700
>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It will be when I can pull into a charging station around the corner and
>>> get a full charge in five minutes.
>>
>> Why would you want to do that if you have a charger where the car
>> is parked ?
>
> It's midnight. I get a call that
>
> + my grandson is critically ill
>
> + my business is on fire
>
> + a landslide/forest fire/toxic spill threatens my home
>
> and I need to go far away *now*. I've been meaning to fill the tank at
> the pumps 5 miles away but have put it off and I'm running on fumes.

See, I don't do that. Part of the Saturday weekly shopping trip is
to completely fill up the tank (with diesel) after I got the shopping
done. Even if it's just 10 liters or so. And a full tank is around
700+ km range with that car (unless I hit the mountains, obviously).

>
> I always have 10 gal. of preservative-treated gas stowed. I dump it
> in and I'm gone.
>
> Can't do that with a battery.
>
> As well, much of the power distribution industry has been converted to
> "fix it when it breaks" rather that "maintain to a high standard".
> (Known perps: Nova Scotia Power, California's PG&E) As a result, a

Fortunately, the local utilities are very good at preventive maintenance
and ensuring that Things Simply Work As They Are Supposed To Do.
It helps to live in a small rich country, I admit.

Kind regards,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
Re: After the storm, hopefully [message #419190 is a reply to message #419178] Sat, 18 February 2023 17:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Alexander Schreiber is currently offline  Alexander Schreiber
Messages: 8
Registered: November 2012
Karma: 0
Junior Member
Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 13:33:55 +0100
> Alexander Schreiber <als@usenet.thangorodrim.de> wrote:
>
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 22:40:12 +0100
>>> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You can keep using your ICE (in Europe) for years. Till 2050. Then you
>>>> won't be able, not because they'll pry it from your cold dead hands,
>>>> but because you will not be able to buy petrol or diesel.
>>>
>>> If it's a diesel then it should be easy enough to run it on home
>>> made biodiesel - making instructions and even kits are easily available
>>> online, try not to burn down the house.
>>
>> In principle yes (I mean, the very first Diesel engine ran on peanut oil),
>> but there are traps. Biodiesel usually isn't straight up vegetable oil,
>
> It never is.

Before RME became common, quite a few people running cars with older
(and more robust) Diesel engines switched to feeding them (carefully
filtered) used cooking oil. With the side effect that you tended to
smell a greasy spoon fastfood joint in the middle of nowhere if you
found yourself driving behind them ;-)

>> but usually chemically processed vegetable oils (e.g. rapeseed methyl
>> ester, aka RME) and that stuff can be decidedly unfriendly to the
>
> That's the stuff.

It's also apparently a really good solvent, which is typically not a
desired property in an engine fuel ;-)

>> fuel system and the engine (e.g. plastics and metals - with pure RME
>> some plastic have shown noticeable degradation and some metals have
>
> Yes some engines need seals replacing - last time I looked into it
> Viton seal kits were available for a wide range of engines.

Yup, replace the (plastic/rubber) parts that RME tends to attack and
you should be good.

>> So will running 100% biodiesel in a diesel engine not rated for kill
>> the engine? Most likely not, but you should expect to pay a lot more
>> attention to regular servicing and maintenance to spot (and fix) whatever
>> issues (e.g. plastic parts of the fuel system degrading) crop up.
>
> Yep - all part of the fun of running an obsolete vehicle. Not too
> dissimilar to the problem of five star petrol going away when tetraethyl
> lead did - some cars needed it to avoid pinking.

AFAIK ethanol also does a decent job as an anti-knock agent, without
poisoning your fellow man with lead. Again, parts of the fuel system
(IIRC mostly seals) might need replacement for that.

Kind regards,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
Re: After the storm, hopefully [message #419191 is a reply to message #419184] Sat, 18 February 2023 19:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:

> On 2023-02-18, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>
>> Yep - all part of the fun of running an obsolete vehicle. Not too
>> dissimilar to the problem of five star petrol going away when tetraethyl
>> lead did - some cars needed it to avoid pinking.
>
> Well, this _is_ a group whose charter is the fun of running
> an obsolete computer...

I'm pretty sure I could remember how to power up, load and run jobs
on an IBM 1401 but it would only be fun once or twice.
Writing some code, nope, give me python.
Autocoder was cool at the time, but I don't want to go back.

--
Dan Espen
Re: After the storm, hopefully [message #419192 is a reply to message #419188] Sat, 18 February 2023 19:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> writes:

> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>
>> On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 06:19:51 -0700
>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It will be when I can pull into a charging station around the corner and
>>> get a full charge in five minutes.
>>
>> Why would you want to do that if you have a charger where the car
>> is parked ?
>
> It's midnight. I get a call that
>
> + my grandson is critically ill
>
> + my business is on fire
>
> + a landslide/forest fire/toxic spill threatens my home
>
> and I need to go far away *now*. I've been meaning to fill the tank at
> the pumps 5 miles away but have put it off and I'm running on fumes.
>
> I always have 10 gal. of preservative-treated gas stowed. I dump it
> in and I'm gone.
>
> Can't do that with a battery.

With such a perilous life, I hope you keep your cell phone in your
pocket and you are good at pressing the Uber button.

I'll probably replace my current car with an electric. The way I use a
car I probably don't need a 220 line in the garage.
The car would be on charge 20 hours a day on average.

--
Dan Espen
Re: After the storm, hopefully [message #419193 is a reply to message #419188] Sat, 18 February 2023 23:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
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Senior Member
On 18 Feb 2023 17:56:28 -0400
Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

>
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>
>> On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 06:19:51 -0700
>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It will be when I can pull into a charging station around the corner
>>> and get a full charge in five minutes.
>>
>> Why would you want to do that if you have a charger where the car
>> is parked ?
>
> It's midnight. I get a call that

You car has been charging for several hours, was almost certainly
nowhere near fully discharged when you park (unless you drive hundreds of
kilometres every day) and is now fully charged or nearly so. You did choose
a car with range suitable to your needs I presume.

But in 45 years of adult life I have *never* had such a call.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Re: After the storm, hopefully [message #419195 is a reply to message #419189] Sun, 19 February 2023 03:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GreyMaus[1] is currently offline  GreyMaus[1]
Messages: 1140
Registered: February 2013
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Senior Member
On 2023-02-18, Alexander Schreiber <als@usenet.thangorodrim.de> wrote:
> Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>>
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>>
>>> On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 06:19:51 -0700
>>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> It will be when I can pull into a charging station around the corner and
>>>> get a full charge in five minutes.
>>>
>>> Why would you want to do that if you have a charger where the car
>>> is parked ?
>>
>> It's midnight. I get a call that
>>
>> + my grandson is critically ill
>>
>> + my business is on fire
>>
>> + a landslide/forest fire/toxic spill threatens my home
>>
>> and I need to go far away *now*. I've been meaning to fill the tank at
>> the pumps 5 miles away but have put it off and I'm running on fumes.
>
> See, I don't do that. Part of the Saturday weekly shopping trip is
> to completely fill up the tank (with diesel) after I got the shopping
> done. Even if it's just 10 liters or so. And a full tank is around
> 700+ km range with that car (unless I hit the mountains, obviously).
>
>>
>> I always have 10 gal. of preservative-treated gas stowed. I dump it
>> in and I'm gone.
>>
>> Can't do that with a battery.
>>
>> As well, much of the power distribution industry has been converted to
>> "fix it when it breaks" rather that "maintain to a high standard".
>> (Known perps: Nova Scotia Power, California's PG&E) As a result, a
>
> Fortunately, the local utilities are very good at preventive maintenance
> and ensuring that Things Simply Work As They Are Supposed To Do.
> It helps to live in a small rich country, I admit.
>
> Kind regards,
> Alex.


Sugar cane alcohol seems to work better, I am told that a foreighner in
Brasil constantly thinks that they smell burned candy, until they get
used to it.

Only years ago, people were told that adding lead to petrol was a great
idea

--
greymausg@mail.com
where is our money gone, Dude?
Re: After the storm, hopefully [message #419196 is a reply to message #419169] Sun, 19 February 2023 10:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
Messages: 4237
Registered: February 2012
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Senior Member
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
> On 2023-02-17, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 14:13:20 -0700
>>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> (or make EVs an improvement on ICs, which is a very long shot).
>>>
>>> In many ways they already are a big improvement on ICEs. In fact
>>> apart from the range available with a full tank and being cheaper I can't
>>> think of a single advantage for IC based cars.
>>
>> Range is a biggie, also recharging time. Not everyone has access to a
>> charger at home. once EVs become more common support infrastructure will
>> start showing signs of stress.
>
> Although you can charge at home overnight without needing new hardware,
> all that extra load on the electrical grid will indeed cause problems.
> Here in B.C. we have lots of hydro power, but most new capacity is
> earmarked for LNG production or sales to California.
>
> Another factor that isn't yet fully appreciated is battery life.

Tesla's batteries have a projected (and warranted) lifespan of 300,000 to 500,000
miles. That's between 22 and 35 years. How many cars last that long today?
Re: After the storm, hopefully [message #419197 is a reply to message #419174] Sun, 19 February 2023 10:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
Messages: 4237
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Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2023-02-17, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 14:13:20 -0700
>>>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > (or make EVs an improvement on ICs, which is a very long shot).
>>>>
>>>> In many ways they already are a big improvement on ICEs. In fact
>>>> apart from the range available with a full tank and being cheaper I can't
>>>> think of a single advantage for IC based cars.
>>>
>>> Range is a biggie, also recharging time. Not everyone has access to a
>>> charger at home. once EVs become more common support infrastructure will
>>> start showing signs of stress.
>>
>> Although you can charge at home overnight without needing new hardware,
>> all that extra load on the electrical grid will indeed cause problems.
>> Here in B.C. we have lots of hydro power, but most new capacity is
>> earmarked for LNG production or sales to California.
>>
>> Another factor that isn't yet fully appreciated is battery life.
>> EVs haven't been around long enough for a significant number of
>> batteries to wear out, so we have yet to find out exactly what
>> is involved in amortizing a $25,000 replacement battery.
>>
>
> Yes. It really cuts into the value of a used car. Cars used to fall apart
> after five years or so anyway, so it wouldn’t have been a problem in the
> ‘50s, but my current Honda is coming up on 20 years, and apparently still
> has some residual value. then, of course, battery recycling infrastructure
> will be needed.

Tesla batteries should last 22 to 30 years (minimum of 300,000 miles);
with a 10 to 15% range reduction near the end. That's longer than most
IC cars will last (and many will require a new engine by then if they
were still on the road).
Re: After the storm, hopefully [message #419198 is a reply to message #419197] Sun, 19 February 2023 11:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GreyMaus[1] is currently offline  GreyMaus[1]
Messages: 1140
Registered: February 2013
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2023-02-19, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 2023-02-17, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 14:13:20 -0700
>>>> > Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> (or make EVs an improvement on ICs, which is a very long shot).
>>>> >
>>>> > In many ways they already are a big improvement on ICEs. In fact
>>>> > apart from the range available with a full tank and being cheaper I can't
>>>> > think of a single advantage for IC based cars.
>>>>
>>>> Range is a biggie, also recharging time. Not everyone has access to a
>>>> charger at home. once EVs become more common support infrastructure will
>>>> start showing signs of stress.
>>>
>>> Although you can charge at home overnight without needing new hardware,
>>> all that extra load on the electrical grid will indeed cause problems.
>>> Here in B.C. we have lots of hydro power, but most new capacity is
>>> earmarked for LNG production or sales to California.
>>>
>>> Another factor that isn't yet fully appreciated is battery life.
>>> EVs haven't been around long enough for a significant number of
>>> batteries to wear out, so we have yet to find out exactly what
>>> is involved in amortizing a $25,000 replacement battery.
>>>
>>
>> Yes. It really cuts into the value of a used car. Cars used to fall apart
>> after five years or so anyway, so it wouldn’t have been a problem in the
>> ‘50s, but my current Honda is coming up on 20 years, and apparently still
>> has some residual value. then, of course, battery recycling infrastructure
>> will be needed.
>
> Tesla batteries should last 22 to 30 years (minimum of 300,000 miles);
> with a 10 to 15% range reduction near the end. That's longer than most
> IC cars will last (and many will require a new engine by then if they
> were still on the road).


I am told that many Honda diesels are overrunning their registers. That
is over a million miles. Salesmen around here (.ie) are claiming 25
years for the time that solar panels last. In my experience, looking at
them when driving along the road, 15 is stretching it. It is also very
important to not let the batteries get wet. There was some cartoons
years ago about not letting pets get wet, it caused them to turn
violent. EV batteries are much the same.

--
greymausg@mail.com
where is our money gone, Dude?
Re: After the storm, hopefully [message #419199 is a reply to message #419196] Sun, 19 February 2023 12:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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Senior Member
On Sun, 19 Feb 2023 15:39:37 GMT
scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:

> Tesla's batteries have a projected (and warranted) lifespan of 300,000 to
> 500,000 miles. That's between 22 and 35 years. How many cars last that

Tesla must be doing something very right with their
charge/discharge cycles and temperature control to only drop 15% in that
time.

> long today?

Very few, all sorts of things are reaching EOL in a car by then and
it's a dead cert that something is going to happen that costs more than the
value of the car to fix - often a head gasket or clutch.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Re: After the storm, hopefully [message #419200 is a reply to message #419176] Sun, 19 February 2023 12:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
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Senior Member
maus <maus@mail.com> wrote:
> On 2023-02-18, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>>>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> That's true today, however even fewer have a gas station
>>> at their home either. Rather a wash, don't you think?
>>
>> It will be when I can pull into a charging station around the corner and
>> get a full charge in five minutes.
>
> Speak the correct language. The newspeak would be, achieve a 85% charge
> in under an hour. Like torrents, the last %15 can take an long time.
> Have a cup of coffee? at somewhere of minimal interest!. How
> attractive! `Josephines' in Kilkenny, where they hardly speak English?
> It closed down for lack of business.

I’d accept 85% in five minutes.

>
>
>
>>
>>>
>>> Charge times are becoming more competitive with gas tank
>>> fill times.
>>>
>>>> once EVs become more common support infrastructure will
>>>> start showing signs of stress.
>>>
>>> Or the support structures will be built out to prevent
>>> stress - a significant part of the recently passed
>>> Infrastructure Investment act.
>>>
>>> It's pretty clear that the car manufacturers are all
>>> on board (simplifies the process of building a vehicle,
>>> that's for sure).
>
> They are too busy laughing.
>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>



--
Pete
Re: After the storm, hopefully [message #419201 is a reply to message #419177] Sun, 19 February 2023 12:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
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Senior Member
maus <maus@mail.com> wrote:
> On 2023-02-18, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 2023-02-17, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 14:13:20 -0700
>>>> > Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> (or make EVs an improvement on ICs, which is a very long shot).
>>>> >
>>>> > In many ways they already are a big improvement on ICEs. In fact
>>>> > apart from the range available with a full tank and being cheaper I can't
>>>> > think of a single advantage for IC based cars.
>>>>
>>>> Range is a biggie, also recharging time. Not everyone has access to a
>>>> charger at home. once EVs become more common support infrastructure will
>>>> start showing signs of stress.
>>>
>>> Although you can charge at home overnight without needing new hardware,
>>> all that extra load on the electrical grid will indeed cause problems.
>>> Here in B.C. we have lots of hydro power, but most new capacity is
>>> earmarked for LNG production or sales to California.
>>>
>>> Another factor that isn't yet fully appreciated is battery life.
>>> EVs haven't been around long enough for a significant number of
>>> batteries to wear out, so we have yet to find out exactly what
>>> is involved in amortizing a $25,000 replacement battery.
>>>
>>
>> Yes. It really cuts into the value of a used car. Cars used to fall apart
>> after five years or so anyway, so it wouldn’t have been a problem in the
>> ‘50s, but my current Honda is coming up on 20 years, and apparently still
>> has some residual value. then, of course, battery recycling infrastructure
>> will be needed.
>>
> Not economic. The world is full of unrecycled lithium Batteries. I wish
> there was a way of finding how long your recharge will last in your old
> battery, and be careful not to get that battery wet. Bad things happen
> when the new batteries get wet.
>

It might be economic in the quantities they’re talking about. I could do
the math, if I weren’t so lazy. Say eventually 85% of all cars on the road
are EVs, and also say that batteries last 15 years ( I have no idea,
actually). This would tell you how many pounds of lithium would be recycled
annually.



--
Pete
Re: After the storm, hopefully [message #419202 is a reply to message #419180] Sun, 19 February 2023 12:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
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Senior Member
Kurt Weiske <kurt.weiske@realitycheckbbs.org.remove-z2k-this> wrote:
> To: Peter Flass
> -=> Peter Flass wrote to alt.folklore.computers <=-
>
> PF> Range is a biggie, also recharging time. Not everyone has access to a
> PF> charger at home. once EVs become more common support infrastructure
> PF> will start showing signs of stress.
>
> I read something about the government paying Tesla to open up the
> Supercharger network to other cars. Tesla drivers may not like queueing
> up behind a Nissan Leaf to charge.
>
> When I had my kitchen remodeled, we tore out the floor, and I noticed I
> had a straight path under the floor from my circuit breaker to the
> outside wall where my carport is. I had them pull a 220-capable wire and
> leave it there, so if I do go electric, most of the legwork is done.

Planning ahead. Don’t you know that isn’t allowed! Actually I’m thinking of
all the twisted pair I pulled in my old house that was made obsolete by
wi-fi.

>
> I was looking at the 2023 Prius to replace my 2014 plug-in Prius, but
> the $10K dealer markup plus $2K dealer-installed improvements (usually
> undercoating) puts the cost of the car in the price of a EV.
>
>
>
> ... It's a bold strategy, Cotton, let's see if it plays out for 'em...
> --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
> --- Synchronet 3.20a-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
> * realitycheckBBS - Aptos, CA - telnet://realitycheckbbs.org
>



--
Pete
Re: After the storm, hopefully [message #419203 is a reply to message #419179] Sun, 19 February 2023 13:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
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Senior Member
Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 06:19:51 -0700
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> It will be when I can pull into a charging station around the corner and
>> get a full charge in five minutes.
>
> Why would you want to do that if you have a charger where the car
> is parked ?
>

We would be the last people to get one. I now live in a condo complex (with
a lot of other people with the same potential problem.) Is someone going to
put a charger by each parking spot? It’s no good to put in just a few,
because everyone would need one.

--
Pete
Re: After the storm, hopefully [message #419204 is a reply to message #419182] Sun, 19 February 2023 13:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 03:02:10 GMT
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Another factor that isn't yet fully appreciated is battery life.
>> EVs haven't been around long enough for a significant number of
>> batteries to wear out, so we have yet to find out exactly what
>> is involved in amortizing a $25,000 replacement battery.
>
> EVs have been around long enough for us to know that replacing the
> battery is not going to happen - it's even less sensible than replacing a
> worn out IC engine and very few do that these days. An EV is essentially a
> battery on wheels, almost all of the value is in the battery. When the
> battery won't hold a useful charge the car is dead.

I thought they were planning a system where the dealer could just pull out
a rack of batteries and slide in a new one?

>
> Most people won't own an EV anywhere near battery end of life, just
> as most people don't own an IC car anywhere near engine end of life. It'll
> only be those who buy at the bottom of the second hand market (there are
> some pretty cheap early Leafs around with degraded batteries) and those who
> buy and keep until dead. The heavily driven ten year old Leafs are still
> above 505 of the original capacity (or so the ads claim) which makes them
> only suitable for short distance runarounds. Modern EVs with their
> much bigger batteries should be a lot more useful at ten years old.
>



--
Pete
Re: After the storm, hopefully [message #419205 is a reply to message #419184] Sun, 19 February 2023 13:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2023-02-18, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>
>> Yep - all part of the fun of running an obsolete vehicle. Not too
>> dissimilar to the problem of five star petrol going away when tetraethyl
>> lead did - some cars needed it to avoid pinking.
>
> Well, this _is_ a group whose charter is the fun of running
> an obsolete computer...
>

Isn’t there an additive you can put in your tank to solve this problem?

--
Pete
Re: After the storm, hopefully [message #419206 is a reply to message #419188] Sun, 19 February 2023 13:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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Senior Member
Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>
>> On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 06:19:51 -0700
>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It will be when I can pull into a charging station around the corner and
>>> get a full charge in five minutes.
>>
>> Why would you want to do that if you have a charger where the car
>> is parked ?
>
> It's midnight. I get a call that
>
> + my grandson is critically ill
>
> + my business is on fire
>
> + a landslide/forest fire/toxic spill threatens my home
>
> and I need to go far away *now*. I've been meaning to fill the tank at
> the pumps 5 miles away but have put it off and I'm running on fumes.
>
> I always have 10 gal. of preservative-treated gas stowed. I dump it
> in and I'm gone.
>
> Can't do that with a battery.
>
> As well, much of the power distribution industry has been converted to
> "fix it when it breaks" rather that "maintain to a high standard".
> (Known perps: Nova Scotia Power, California's PG&E) As a result, a
> widespread outage of long duration may occur at any time due to a
> major infrastruture failure. I have that 10 gal. for a buffer. The
> general store where I get my gas also has a gen set to power their
> pumps, again as a short term buffer but but better than no charge for
> an EV.
>
>

No one has thought any of this thru, or, if they did, they brushed it off
because converting to EVs was so “important.”

--
Pete
Re: After the storm, hopefully [message #419207 is a reply to message #419189] Sun, 19 February 2023 13:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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Senior Member
Alexander Schreiber <als@usenet.thangorodrim.de> wrote:
> Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>>
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>>
>>> On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 06:19:51 -0700
>>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> It will be when I can pull into a charging station around the corner and
>>>> get a full charge in five minutes.
>>>
>>> Why would you want to do that if you have a charger where the car
>>> is parked ?
>>
>> It's midnight. I get a call that
>>
>> + my grandson is critically ill
>>
>> + my business is on fire
>>
>> + a landslide/forest fire/toxic spill threatens my home
>>
>> and I need to go far away *now*. I've been meaning to fill the tank at
>> the pumps 5 miles away but have put it off and I'm running on fumes.
>
> See, I don't do that. Part of the Saturday weekly shopping trip is
> to completely fill up the tank (with diesel) after I got the shopping
> done. Even if it's just 10 liters or so. And a full tank is around
> 700+ km range with that car (unless I hit the mountains, obviously).
>
>>
>> I always have 10 gal. of preservative-treated gas stowed. I dump it
>> in and I'm gone.
>>
>> Can't do that with a battery.
>>
>> As well, much of the power distribution industry has been converted to
>> "fix it when it breaks" rather that "maintain to a high standard".
>> (Known perps: Nova Scotia Power, California's PG&E) As a result, a
>
> Fortunately, the local utilities are very good at preventive maintenance
> and ensuring that Things Simply Work As They Are Supposed To Do.
> It helps to live in a small rich country, I admit.

Can’t see your address, but I have to assume you’re not in the US when you
say that. Actually, companies have plenty of money, what they son’t have is
any sense of responsibility for seeing that their power grid doesn’t cause
forest fires, or that their trains don’t poison the air and water supply
for groups of people.

>
> Kind regards,
> Alex.



--
Pete
Re: After the storm, hopefully [message #419208 is a reply to message #419204] Sun, 19 February 2023 13:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
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Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 03:02:10 GMT
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> Another factor that isn't yet fully appreciated is battery life.
>>> EVs haven't been around long enough for a significant number of
>>> batteries to wear out, so we have yet to find out exactly what
>>> is involved in amortizing a $25,000 replacement battery.
>>
>> EVs have been around long enough for us to know that replacing the
>> battery is not going to happen - it's even less sensible than replacing a
>> worn out IC engine and very few do that these days. An EV is essentially a
>> battery on wheels, almost all of the value is in the battery. When the
>> battery won't hold a useful charge the car is dead.
>
> I thought they were planning a system where the dealer could just pull out
> a rack of batteries and slide in a new one?
>

How would you design such a system with the current vehicle form factors?

Consider just how much volume the battery requires (almost half a cubic meter)
and how that volume is distributed.

There have been designs discussed where the chassis is standardized (battery,
motors, suspension) and any arbitrary body can be dropped on it with the
appropriate bells and whistles. That would be a more likely swap option,
but as noted, after the 300,000 mile life of a battery pack, the body and
interior will be pretty beat up.
Re: After the storm, hopefully [message #419209 is a reply to message #419188] Sun, 19 February 2023 13:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
D.J. is currently offline  D.J.
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Senior Member
On 18 Feb 2023 17:56:28 -0400, Mike Spencer
<mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>
>> On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 06:19:51 -0700
>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It will be when I can pull into a charging station around the corner and
>>> get a full charge in five minutes.
>>
>> Why would you want to do that if you have a charger where the car
>> is parked ?
>
> It's midnight. I get a call that
>
> + my grandson is critically ill
>
> + my business is on fire
>
> + a landslide/forest fire/toxic spill threatens my home
>
> and I need to go far away *now*. I've been meaning to fill the tank at
> the pumps 5 miles away but have put it off and I'm running on fumes.
>
> I always have 10 gal. of preservative-treated gas stowed. I dump it
> in and I'm gone.
>
> Can't do that with a battery.
>
> As well, much of the power distribution industry has been converted to
> "fix it when it breaks" rather that "maintain to a high standard".
> (Known perps: Nova Scotia Power, California's PG&E) As a result, a
> widespread outage of long duration may occur at any time due to a
> major infrastruture failure. I have that 10 gal. for a buffer. The
> general store where I get my gas also has a gen set to power their
> pumps, again as a short term buffer but but better than no charge for
> an EV.

Along with Texas Power company, which is/has been a joke since it was
set up.
--
Jim
Re: After the storm, hopefully [message #419210 is a reply to message #419203] Sun, 19 February 2023 13:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
D.J. is currently offline  D.J.
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On Sun, 19 Feb 2023 11:10:28 -0700, Peter Flass
<peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 06:19:51 -0700
>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It will be when I can pull into a charging station around the corner and
>>> get a full charge in five minutes.
>>
>> Why would you want to do that if you have a charger where the car
>> is parked ?
>>
>
> We would be the last people to get one. I now live in a condo complex (with
> a lot of other people with the same potential problem.) Is someone going to
> put a charger by each parking spot? It’s no good to put in just a few,
> because everyone would need one.

I asked relatives about this, they had researched getting an EV. Turns
out part of the purchase price is getting your very own charging
station.
--
Jim
Re: After the storm, hopefully [message #419211 is a reply to message #419196] Sun, 19 February 2023 13:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
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scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:

> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>> On 2023-02-17, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 14:13:20 -0700
>>>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > (or make EVs an improvement on ICs, which is a very long shot).
>>>>
>>>> In many ways they already are a big improvement on ICEs. In fact
>>>> apart from the range available with a full tank and being cheaper I can't
>>>> think of a single advantage for IC based cars.
>>>
>>> Range is a biggie, also recharging time. Not everyone has access to a
>>> charger at home. once EVs become more common support infrastructure will
>>> start showing signs of stress.
>>
>> Although you can charge at home overnight without needing new hardware,
>> all that extra load on the electrical grid will indeed cause problems.
>> Here in B.C. we have lots of hydro power, but most new capacity is
>> earmarked for LNG production or sales to California.
>>
>> Another factor that isn't yet fully appreciated is battery life.
>
> Tesla's batteries have a projected (and warranted) lifespan of 300,000 to 500,000
> miles. That's between 22 and 35 years. How many cars last that long today?

I've been reading, after the batteries become too worn out for the car
they are in, they can still be used for electricity storage.

I've been wondering if they'll disassemble the car or just leave the
battery in the car and use it that way.

So, 22-35 years to get to 300-500K miles, then perhaps many more years
before the battery is ready to be recycled.

--
Dan Espen
Re: After the storm, hopefully [message #419212 is a reply to message #419198] Sun, 19 February 2023 13:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
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maus <maus@mail.com> writes:

> On 2023-02-19, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 2023-02-17, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 14:13:20 -0700
>>>> >> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> (or make EVs an improvement on ICs, which is a very long shot).
>>>> >>
>>>> >> In many ways they already are a big improvement on ICEs. In fact
>>>> >> apart from the range available with a full tank and being cheaper I can't
>>>> >> think of a single advantage for IC based cars.
>>>> >
>>>> > Range is a biggie, also recharging time. Not everyone has access to a
>>>> > charger at home. once EVs become more common support infrastructure will
>>>> > start showing signs of stress.
>>>>
>>>> Although you can charge at home overnight without needing new hardware,
>>>> all that extra load on the electrical grid will indeed cause problems.
>>>> Here in B.C. we have lots of hydro power, but most new capacity is
>>>> earmarked for LNG production or sales to California.
>>>>
>>>> Another factor that isn't yet fully appreciated is battery life.
>>>> EVs haven't been around long enough for a significant number of
>>>> batteries to wear out, so we have yet to find out exactly what
>>>> is involved in amortizing a $25,000 replacement battery.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes. It really cuts into the value of a used car. Cars used to fall apart
>>> after five years or so anyway, so it wouldn’t have been a problem in the
>>> ‘50s, but my current Honda is coming up on 20 years, and apparently still
>>> has some residual value. then, of course, battery recycling infrastructure
>>> will be needed.
>>
>> Tesla batteries should last 22 to 30 years (minimum of 300,000 miles);
>> with a 10 to 15% range reduction near the end. That's longer than most
>> IC cars will last (and many will require a new engine by then if they
>> were still on the road).
>
>
> I am told that many Honda diesels are overrunning their registers. That
> is over a million miles. Salesmen around here (.ie) are claiming 25
> years for the time that solar panels last. In my experience, looking at
> them when driving along the road, 15 is stretching it. It is also very
> important to not let the batteries get wet. There was some cartoons
> years ago about not letting pets get wet, it caused them to turn
> violent. EV batteries are much the same.

You can tell a solar panel is at EOL by looking? Why do I doubt you?

I believe you are referring to Mogwai (gremlins).

--
Dan Espen
Re: After the storm, hopefully [message #419213 is a reply to message #419203] Sun, 19 February 2023 13:46 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:

> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 06:19:51 -0700
>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It will be when I can pull into a charging station around the corner and
>>> get a full charge in five minutes.
>>
>> Why would you want to do that if you have a charger where the car
>> is parked ?
>
> We would be the last people to get one. I now live in a condo complex (with
> a lot of other people with the same potential problem.) Is someone going to
> put a charger by each parking spot? It’s no good to put in just a few,
> because everyone would need one.

It's just a bit of wiring. If you put one in, how hard is it, to put
chargers in all the spaces?

Everyone doesn't need one all at once, but at some point you'd just
decide it's time to wire all the parking spaces.

--
Dan Espen
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