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Re: Why the Soviet computer failed [message #415978 is a reply to message #415953] Fri, 05 August 2022 13:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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Robin Vowels <robin.vowels@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday, August 5, 2022 at 3:30:30 AM UTC+10, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> On Thu, 4 Aug 2022 19:05:25 +0300
>> Bud Spencer <b...@campo.verano.it> wrote:
>>
>>> Magnetic retardation is a thing no software can undo.
>> You could probably get a long way with a SQUID generated detailed
>> map of the surface magnetisation and some fancy pattern analysis ... grant
>> required.
>>> Only archive quality optical medias are such that can keep data intact
>>> for centuries.
> .
>> Of course this has not been tested. Clay tablets hold the current
>> record for data retention but the bit density is terrible.
> .
> Punch cards?
>

If the rodents and bugs don’t get them they will last as long as a book
printed on good paper, but it becomes very difficult to read them after a
while. I think optical scanning, possibly hand-fed, works best later.

--
Pete
Re: Why the Soviet computer failed [message #415979 is a reply to message #415970] Fri, 05 August 2022 13:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: drb

> Sound estimate ...

No, it was a video estimate.

De
Re: Why the Soviet computer failed [message #415984 is a reply to message #415711] Fri, 05 August 2022 17:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quadibloc is currently offline  Quadibloc
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On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 10:26:06 PM UTC-6, Roger Blake wrote:
> On 2022-07-29, jtmpreno <no...@znet.com> wrote:

>> That sounds like it came from Dr. Strangelove.

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6b9wp7lsxo

Thank you for providing the source of the quote.

John Savard
Re: Why the Soviet computer failed [message #415985 is a reply to message #415722] Fri, 05 August 2022 17:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quadibloc is currently offline  Quadibloc
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On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 9:53:00 AM UTC-6, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> jtmpreno <no...@znet.com> writes:

>> That sounds like it came from Dr. Strangelove.
> Blake is a noted nutcase.

But since it _was_ an actual quote from Dr. Strangelove, doesn't that
mean it was intended ironically, and so the intent of his post was to
claim that the Asianometry video was bigoted against Russians?

John Savard
Re: Why the Soviet computer failed [message #415986 is a reply to message #415749] Fri, 05 August 2022 17:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quadibloc is currently offline  Quadibloc
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On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 6:14:50 PM UTC-6, Roger Blake wrote:

> No, I do not want to hold them in camps. They might find their way back.
> They must be totally and completely eradicated. Turned into vapour and
> poured into the stratosphere. This is not a "discussion". The Left must
> be utterly destroyed.

Oh, my.

Well, I guess that makes sense from your point of view. Why, I was just
watching a video on YouTube about how these left-wingers are too clever
in escaping from traps for them...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-0YzkmbCUU

Since you include in "the Left" not just destructive extremists,
but people who believe in freedom, but who believe in it for
everyone, not just for some, of course I will cheer when you,
and those like you, are prevented from achieving any of your
evil goals.

John Savard
Re: Why the Soviet computer failed [message #416000 is a reply to message #415978] Sat, 06 August 2022 02:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Robin Vowels is currently offline  Robin Vowels
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On Saturday, August 6, 2022 at 3:19:38 AM UTC+10, Peter Flass wrote:
> Robin Vowels <robin....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Friday, August 5, 2022 at 3:30:30 AM UTC+10, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>> On Thu, 4 Aug 2022 19:05:25 +0300
>>> Bud Spencer <b...@campo.verano.it> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Magnetic retardation is a thing no software can undo.
>>> You could probably get a long way with a SQUID generated detailed
>>> map of the surface magnetisation and some fancy pattern analysis ... grant
>>> required.
>>>> Only archive quality optical medias are such that can keep data intact
>>>> for centuries.
>> .
>>> Of course this has not been tested. Clay tablets hold the current
>>> record for data retention but the bit density is terrible.
>> .
>> Punch cards?
>>
> If the rodents and bugs don’t get them they will last as long as a book
> printed on good paper, but it becomes very difficult to read them after a
> while. I think optical scanning, possibly hand-fed, works best later.
..
I have punch cards from the '60s, and they are in excellent condition.
Re: Why the Soviet computer failed [message #416062 is a reply to message #415669] Wed, 10 August 2022 13:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: antispam

Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
> Found this <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnHdqPBrtH8>
> interesting. Reasons, why the Soviet Union/Russia never caught up to the
> US in the "computer race".
>
> Suppose one can project that are the same reasons Russia today can't do
> without massive technology support from outside.

I am not doing youtube so do not know what author claims.
Usual western explanation is that communist system was
inefficient and hostile to innovation. This explanation
has some merit, but management problems in communism
and in big western companies are similar so IMO it is
only partial explanation.

However, one can also look at fundamentals. Soviet
economy was smaller than western economy. At its best
times soviet block claimed to be about half of western
block. More important, advanced sectors formed much
smaller part of Soviet economy than in western economy.
In advanced part of economy there are very strong scale
and multiplier effects. Namely you pay developement
cost once, with moderate influence of resulting production
volume. By multipler effect I mean that to develop
advanced technology you need advanced parts and tools.
So speed at which you are able to develop advanced
technology depends very strongly on your techonlogy
level. And western embargo meant that Soviet block
could not import curucial advanced technology, it has
to develop its own. Since Soviet block was way behind
west in advanced technology, it also developed slower so
distance to west at best remainded fixed and in
many cases increased.

In central planning economy there is naive belif
that assigning more resources to critical sectors
will lead to faster developement and consequently
allow overtaking "unplanned" economy. However,
first of all, one needs to correctly identify
critical sectors, which is tricky. Second, more
resources does not mean more effect: sector must
be able to usfully "consume" added resources.
For example, if your semiconductor manufacturing
is limited by lack of knowledge and your research
is limited by lack of scientific instruments, you
get rather long delay from critical place to
desired effect. Third, every leading country now
has some level of planned economy and there is
state support for long term projects.

Another question is how much demand for computers
was in Soviet block. Computers were needed for
bomb and rocket research, but AFAICS Soviets
had this covered. Various report show that in
Soviet block computer centers frequently operated
one shift only. If there were pressing need
they should operate them at least two shifts.

Recently I have read Polish report (but Russian
thinking was probably similar) about
computer trends from 1969. One claim was that
in USA there is enough computers. Argument was
as follows: computer manufactures had free
production capacity and if there were more need
users would order more. So report predicted
that computer use would saturate at level similar
to USA in 1969. They also observe that to get
economic benefits from computers one had to
simultaneously improve orgranization, comuication,
etc. That needed time so report claimed that there
is no rush to increased computer use: one should
improve all things at their natural pace.

Of course claim about "saturated" computer market was
quite wrong, they did not predict that falling
computer prices would lead to much wider use. But
Soviet block planners were not the only ones to
make such mistake. Internal IBM documents from
1972 shows that IBM was quite scared that failing
manufacturing costs would lead to low prices for
computers and effectively "collapse" computer
market.

I think that it is hard to compare Russia now to
Soviet times. On one hand Russion economy now
is much smaller part of word economy than Soviet
economy was in Soviet times. And Russion seem
to be much more dependent on imports. OTOH
western embargo needed quite a long time to
have effect. And in modern times it is not
just Russia and west. In particular China has
a lot of technologies that Russia needs. I think
that China advanced sector is still significantly
smaller than western advanced sector. And China
is dependent on imports of western advanced
products. So China do not want confrontation
with west (at least just now). But if pressed to
hard they can make common block with Russia
just as self-defence.

--
Waldek Hebisch
Re: Why the Soviet computer failed [message #416063 is a reply to message #416062] Wed, 10 August 2022 13:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Harry Vaderchi is currently offline  Harry Vaderchi
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Senior Member
On Wed, 10 Aug 2022 17:12:25 -0000 (UTC)
antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl wrote:

> Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>> Found this <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnHdqPBrtH8>
>> interesting. Reasons, why the Soviet Union/Russia never caught up to the
>> US in the "computer race".
>>
>> Suppose one can project that are the same reasons Russia today can't do
>> without massive technology support from outside.
>
> I am not doing youtube so do not know what author claims.
> Usual western explanation is that communist system was
> inefficient and hostile to innovation. This explanation
> has some merit, but management problems in communism
> and in big western companies are similar so IMO it is
> only partial explanation.
>
> However, one can also look at fundamentals. Soviet
> economy was smaller than western economy. At its best

[]

Thanks for this.
> Waldek Hebisch


--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
Re: Why the Soviet computer failed [message #416066 is a reply to message #416062] Wed, 10 August 2022 15:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
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Senior Member
<antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl> wrote:
> Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>> Found this <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnHdqPBrtH8>
>> interesting. Reasons, why the Soviet Union/Russia never caught up to the
>> US in the "computer race".
>>
>> Suppose one can project that are the same reasons Russia today can't do
>> without massive technology support from outside.
>
> I am not doing youtube so do not know what author claims.
> Usual western explanation is that communist system was
> inefficient and hostile to innovation. This explanation
> has some merit, but management problems in communism
> and in big western companies are similar so IMO it is
> only partial explanation.
>

Most of the innovation in the West doesn’t come from the large companies,
bur from lone entrepreneurs, like Bill Hewlett or Jobs. Big companies
innovate by establishing small, independent operations like Xerox Parc,
Bell Labs, or IBM’s PC operation, and then leaving them alone. The Soviet
system was not particularly well-suited to do either. For a while
post-Soviet Russia seemed to be escaping from this, but Putinism has
strangled it in the womb.

--
Pete
Re: Why the Soviet computer failed [message #416070 is a reply to message #416066] Wed, 10 August 2022 23:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: antispam

Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> <antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl> wrote:
>> Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>> Found this <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnHdqPBrtH8>
>>> interesting. Reasons, why the Soviet Union/Russia never caught up to the
>>> US in the "computer race".
>>>
>>> Suppose one can project that are the same reasons Russia today can't do
>>> without massive technology support from outside.
>>
>> I am not doing youtube so do not know what author claims.
>> Usual western explanation is that communist system was
>> inefficient and hostile to innovation. This explanation
>> has some merit, but management problems in communism
>> and in big western companies are similar so IMO it is
>> only partial explanation.
>>
>
> Most of the innovation in the West doesn?t come from the large companies,
> bur from lone entrepreneurs, like Bill Hewlett or Jobs. Big companies
> innovate by establishing small, independent operations like Xerox Parc,
> Bell Labs, or IBM?s PC operation, and then leaving them alone.

AFAICS most strictly computer innovations in 1950-1970 period
came from big companies, in particular IBM. Smaller companies
were not able to spend enough resources to maintain competitive
offer.

I am not sure what you consider as invention of Jobs as
"lone entrepreneur". IIUC already Apple was join effort
with Wozniak and I would brand it more as catching
obvious opportunity (which most folks can not do) than
invention. Later Jobs acted as boss of company and he
was bringing to market inventions done by other folks.

> The Soviet
> system was not particularly well-suited to do either.

I affraid the western people have too simplified view of
what happened in Soviet block. There were research institutes,
and they had reasonable level of autonomy.

Just as an example, first Polish computer was build in
Math Institute of Polish Academy of Science. At that
time institute had probably 40 or 50 researches
(mathematicians). Director of institute believed that
computers were important in general and could be
valuable tool for math research. So two mathematicians
helped with logical parts and later with programming
and they hired team of 3 or 4 electronic engeneers to
build computer. They had major problems with components
stability. IIUC after careful selection they somewhat
managed with passives made in Soviet block (mostly in
Poland) but they had to use tubes imported from west
(England IIRC). Still, their initial logical design
never worked: they tuned some functional block so that
it worked then few days later when they tried to
integrated it with another block the first one needed
re-tuning. After 2 years they gave up this design and
tried much simpler one which worked.

To give you some different data points: close to end of
comunist era export and import were approximately 5%
of GDP. To put it differently 95% of good consumed in
Poland was actually produced in Poland. I think that
earlier in communist time role of foreign trade was not
bigger and probably smaller. After 1970 Poland bought
several western licences so corresponding product were
really western construction. But before 1970 licences
from west were quite rare (there were licences between
different countries of Soviet block). So quite a lot
of things made and used in Poland was domestic
construction or maybe construction from some other
part of Soviet block. I have also saw interesting
claim about Czechoslovakia: supposedly if you looked
at all products made in the world 65% had similar
product made in Czechoslovakia. If you consider that
there is a lot of specialized product and Czechoslovakia
is rather small country, this implies significant
level of design and technological activity.

One can claim that spreading effort on so many product
is inefficient. And that much of inventions made in
Soviet block was really reinventing the wheel. OTOH
some of that was necessary because west imposed
embargo. Some other was demeed necessary to make
countries self-sufficinet. Some was perceived as
important growth market so countries tried to
build their potential. AFAICS US few times did
similar thing with semiconductors: even though
semiconductors were available at lower price from
foreign vendors USA insisted on boosting
domestic production.

> For a while
> post-Soviet Russia seemed to be escaping from this, but Putinism has
> strangled it in the womb.

I do not know about Russia, but I know something about Poland.
In first few years after fall of communism Poland lost probably
about 30% of its GDP. In particular old computer industry
essentially vanished. We got better imported computers
at lower price (but previously embargo blocked state
entities form buing western computers, so own production
was justified). There were some innovation, for example
one small firm used AMD bitslice processors to build
functional eqivalent of old Polish computers (there was
some demand to keep existing system running). But this
probably had more to do with lifting embargo than with
change of economic system. In particular already
during communist times firms that managed to get DRAM
chips offered memory upgrades to core-memory computers.
There were some addons to home computers and PC-s, again
this already started in communist period. There was
certainly growth in economic activity of small firms.
However most of that happened in low-tech parts and
agriculture. There _may_ be more innovation now. But
there is little that is visible: product that one sees
on market are mostly foreign constructions. I heard that
Poland now is large (possibly biggest in Europe) manufacturer
of TV-s. But AFAIK this is really assembling foreign
(Asian) construction with only simplest part done in
Poland and "interesting" part done abroad. There was
some activity of small software vendors. But I am
not aware of any major Polish software house (there is
at least one Google campus and some other foreign
companies are also present).

--
Waldek Hebisch
Re: Why the Soviet computer failed [message #416076 is a reply to message #416070] Thu, 11 August 2022 03:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: maus

On 2022-08-11, antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl <antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl> wrote:
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> <antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl> wrote:
>>> Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>>> Found this <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnHdqPBrtH8>
>>>> interesting. Reasons, why the Soviet Union/Russia never caught up to the
>>>> US in the "computer race".
>>>>
> not aware of any major Polish software house (there is
> at least one Google campus and some other foreign
> companies are also present).
>

A few points I would like to make;

Poland was in the forefront of the effort to breaking the Enigma Code,
and in showing it could be done. That was, of course, when fascism was
`bad' and those opposing it were `good'.

I do not think that the existence of such things as facebook, twitter,
etc, are a big gain for humanity.

Big companies do not really want innovation, they see it as a threat to
their dominance. Microsoft is intentionably evil.

`Wroclaw' was Breslau?. Is Silesia going to secede?. I get a headache
trying to understand East European politics. How many Magyar speakers in
Transylvania?

There is a constant theme among people from beyond the Oder,
Under communism, I had a house, not a great house, but a house, under
communism, I had a job, not a great job, but a job, etc,etc




:
Re: Why the Soviet computer failed [message #416077 is a reply to message #416070] Thu, 11 August 2022 09:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
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Senior Member
<antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl> wrote:
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> <antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl> wrote:
>>> Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>>> Found this <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnHdqPBrtH8>
>>>> interesting. Reasons, why the Soviet Union/Russia never caught up to the
>>>> US in the "computer race".
>>>>
>>>> Suppose one can project that are the same reasons Russia today can't do
>>>> without massive technology support from outside.
>>>
>>> I am not doing youtube so do not know what author claims.
>>> Usual western explanation is that communist system was
>>> inefficient and hostile to innovation. This explanation
>>> has some merit, but management problems in communism
>>> and in big western companies are similar so IMO it is
>>> only partial explanation.
>>>
>>
>> Most of the innovation in the West doesn?t come from the large companies,
>> bur from lone entrepreneurs, like Bill Hewlett or Jobs. Big companies
>> innovate by establishing small, independent operations like Xerox Parc,
>> Bell Labs, or IBM?s PC operation, and then leaving them alone.
>
> AFAICS most strictly computer innovations in 1950-1970 period
> came from big companies, in particular IBM. Smaller companies
> were not able to spend enough resources to maintain competitive
> offer.
>
> I am not sure what you consider as invention of Jobs as
> "lone entrepreneur". IIUC already Apple was join effort
> with Wozniak and I would brand it more as catching
> obvious opportunity (which most folks can not do) than
> invention. Later Jobs acted as boss of company and he
> was bringing to market inventions done by other folks.
>
>> The Soviet
>> system was not particularly well-suited to do either.
>
> I affraid the western people have too simplified view of
> what happened in Soviet block. There were research institutes,
> and they had reasonable level of autonomy.
>
> Just as an example, first Polish computer was build in
> Math Institute of Polish Academy of Science. At that
> time institute had probably 40 or 50 researches
> (mathematicians). Director of institute believed that
> computers were important in general and could be
> valuable tool for math research. So two mathematicians
> helped with logical parts and later with programming
> and they hired team of 3 or 4 electronic engeneers to
> build computer. They had major problems with components
> stability. IIUC after careful selection they somewhat
> managed with passives made in Soviet block (mostly in
> Poland) but they had to use tubes imported from west
> (England IIRC). Still, their initial logical design
> never worked: they tuned some functional block so that
> it worked then few days later when they tried to
> integrated it with another block the first one needed
> re-tuning. After 2 years they gave up this design and
> tried much simpler one which worked.
>
> To give you some different data points: close to end of
> comunist era export and import were approximately 5%
> of GDP. To put it differently 95% of good consumed in
> Poland was actually produced in Poland. I think that
> earlier in communist time role of foreign trade was not
> bigger and probably smaller. After 1970 Poland bought
> several western licences so corresponding product were
> really western construction. But before 1970 licences
> from west were quite rare (there were licences between
> different countries of Soviet block). So quite a lot
> of things made and used in Poland was domestic
> construction or maybe construction from some other
> part of Soviet block. I have also saw interesting
> claim about Czechoslovakia: supposedly if you looked
> at all products made in the world 65% had similar
> product made in Czechoslovakia. If you consider that
> there is a lot of specialized product and Czechoslovakia
> is rather small country, this implies significant
> level of design and technological activity.
>

The Czech Republic has always been one of the more advanced countries in
the area, dating back at least to Hapsburg times. The Skoda works was a
premier cannon founder in two wars.

--
Pete
Re: Why the Soviet computer failed [message #416078 is a reply to message #416066] Thu, 11 August 2022 10:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
Messages: 4237
Registered: February 2012
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Senior Member
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
> <antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl> wrote:
>> Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>> Found this <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnHdqPBrtH8>
>>> interesting. Reasons, why the Soviet Union/Russia never caught up to the
>>> US in the "computer race".
>>>
>>> Suppose one can project that are the same reasons Russia today can't do
>>> without massive technology support from outside.
>>
>> I am not doing youtube so do not know what author claims.
>> Usual western explanation is that communist system was
>> inefficient and hostile to innovation. This explanation
>> has some merit, but management problems in communism
>> and in big western companies are similar so IMO it is
>> only partial explanation.
>>
>
> Most of the innovation in the West doesn’t come from the large companies,
> bur from lone entrepreneurs, like Bill Hewlett or Jobs

I'd say most of it comes from academia originally. Atansaoff/Berry,
Eckart/Mauchly, Rivest/Shamir/Adelman, Diffie/Hellman, Tanenbaum, Backus,
Hollerith, Hopper, Knuth, Lamport, Neumann, Patterson, Richie/Thompson,
Turing, Wirth, Dijkstra, et alia.
Re: Why the Soviet computer failed [message #416081 is a reply to message #416078] Thu, 11 August 2022 14:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
John Levine is currently offline  John Levine
Messages: 1405
Registered: December 2011
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Senior Member
According to Scott Lurndal <slp53@pacbell.net>:
> I'd say most of it comes from academia originally. Atansaoff/Berry,
> Eckart/Mauchly, Rivest/Shamir/Adelman, Diffie/Hellman, Tanenbaum, Backus,
> Hollerith, Hopper, Knuth, Lamport, Neumann, Patterson, Richie/Thompson,
> Turing, Wirth, Dijkstra, et alia.

Backus did his interesting work at IBM. Hollerith set up his own company
to provide punch card equipment for the US Census, later merged into IBM.

Ritchie and Thompson were at Bell Labs.

Eckert and Mauchly built ENIAC at the U of Pennsylvania but only
because they had a large contract from the US Army. Once it was done
they left to set up their own company to build the quite different
Univac. Hopper worked for the Univac company and was in the US Navy
reserve.

You left out Von Neumann who oversaw the computer project at the
Institute for Advanced Study, an odd sort of college with faculty
but no students, but did important work for the government and
industrial clients. He ended up knowing way too much about atomic
bombs to work for anyone but the government. When he died there
was reputedly an armed guard at the door to his hospital room in
case he should blab secrets in his sleep.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
Re: Why the Soviet computer failed [message #416085 is a reply to message #416081] Thu, 11 August 2022 15:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
Messages: 4237
Registered: February 2012
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Senior Member
John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> writes:
> According to Scott Lurndal <slp53@pacbell.net>:
>> I'd say most of it comes from academia originally. Atansaoff/Berry,
>> Eckart/Mauchly, Rivest/Shamir/Adelman, Diffie/Hellman, Tanenbaum, Backus,
>> Hollerith, Hopper, Knuth, Lamport, Neumann, Patterson, Richie/Thompson,
>> Turing, Wirth, Dijkstra, et alia.
>
> Backus did his interesting work at IBM. Hollerith set up his own company
> to provide punch card equipment for the US Census, later merged into IBM.
>
> Ritchie and Thompson were at Bell Labs.
>
> Eckert and Mauchly built ENIAC at the U of Pennsylvania but only
> because they had a large contract from the US Army. Once it was done
> they left to set up their own company to build the quite different
> Univac. Hopper worked for the Univac company and was in the US Navy
> reserve.
>
> You left out Von Neumann who oversaw the computer project at the

I left out the Von, but not the Neumann...

I suppose I meant more that it was individuals, not companies that
matter in this discussion (the context of which you snipped).

And much began with Atansoff, a professor at a midwestern land
grant college. I had the honor to take him to dinner once in
1981; very interesting discussions that evening about the past
and the future as his interests by then were more in natural
language processing.
Re: Why the Soviet computer failed [message #416097 is a reply to message #416081] Fri, 12 August 2022 04:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Robin Vowels is currently offline  Robin Vowels
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On Friday, August 12, 2022 at 4:11:16 AM UTC+10, John Levine wrote:
> According to Scott Lurndal <sl...@pacbell.net>:
>> I'd say most of it comes from academia originally. Atansaoff/Berry,
>> Eckart/Mauchly, Rivest/Shamir/Adelman, Diffie/Hellman, Tanenbaum, Backus,
>> Hollerith, Hopper, Knuth, Lamport, Neumann, Patterson, Richie/Thompson,
>> Turing, Wirth, Dijkstra, et alia.
> Backus did his interesting work at IBM. Hollerith set up his own company
> to provide punch card equipment for the US Census, later merged into IBM.
>
> Ritchie and Thompson were at Bell Labs.
>
> Eckert and Mauchly built ENIAC at the U of Pennsylvania but only
> because they had a large contract from the US Army. Once it was done
> they left to set up their own company to build the quite different
> Univac. Hopper worked for the Univac company and was in the US Navy
> reserve.
>
> You left out Von Neumann who oversaw the computer project at the
> Institute for Advanced Study, an odd sort of college with faculty
> but no students, but did important work for the government and
> industrial clients. He ended up knowing way too much about atomic
> bombs to work for anyone but the government. When he died there
> was reputedly an armed guard at the door to his hospital room in
> case he should blab secrets in his sleep.
..
And Alan Turing was at NPL when he designed the ACE.
Re: Why the Soviet computer failed [message #416112 is a reply to message #415765] Sat, 13 August 2022 14:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On 30 Jul 2022 18:42:47 GMT, maus <maus@dmaus.org> wrote:

> On 2022-07-30, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>> On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 13:04:03 -0400, Dan Espen wrote:
>>>
>>> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
>>>
>>>> Blake is a noted nutcase.
>>>
>>> Actually he has advocated multiple times for killing a full half of
>>> the population of the USA. A thoroughly disgusting character.
>>
>> But there were some people who liked to be nuked.
>>
>> Just recently I saw a video where 5 officers voluntarily had themselves
>> "nuked" by stranding on the ground of the Nevada desert with a relatively
>> small nuke was detonated on top. Besides a short burst of heat and a
>> small shockwave nothing happened to them. Some lived to become 90 years old.
>>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Plumbbob> (5th paragraph).
>
> My memory of an incident like that is different. How many of the early
> workers in atomic bombs died early. How old was Feynman or Oppenheimer
> when they died??

Feynman was 69, while the proximate cause of death was declining
dialysis for kidney failure, the kidney failure was the result of a
chain that started with liposarcoma.

Oppenheimer died at 62 of throat cancer. He was known as a
chain-smoker so this might not have been related to nuclear research.

>> Reason for that publicity stunt was to ensure the American population
>> that the United States might explode some nukes above them. Because there
>> did not exist a technology to shoot down a number of (Russian) bombers
>> the idea was to explode a nuke in the center of them to take them
>> out.
>
> I remember a story that the US exploded a bomb well above hawaii to
> see what would happen. A lot of computers had to be replaced. I
> remember the muppet show, Dr. Bunsen honeydew and his assistant
> Beaker. Go back to the 1930, and the support that some peoplein high
> places gave to `eugenics'.

That would have been Starfish Prime. It, however, was not "well above
Hawaii", it was 900 miles away and at an altitude of 250 miles. It
knocked out 300 street lights, set off numerous burglar alarms, and
damaged a telephone company microwave link, and also disabled 3
satellites, one of which was Telstar 1, however the satellite damage
was a delayed effect due to cumulative damage from passage through a
radiation belt.
Re: Why the Soviet computer failed [message #416113 is a reply to message #415895] Sat, 13 August 2022 14:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Tue, 02 Aug 2022 11:21:12 -0500, D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Mon, 01 Aug 2022 22:48:41 -0400, Andreas Kohlbach
> <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>> On Mon, 01 Aug 2022 09:42:13 -0500, D.J. wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 18:05:44 -0700, Peter Flass
>>> <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> D.J. <chucktheouch@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> > On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 17:20:01 -0400, Andreas Kohlbach
>>>> > <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>>> >> On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 13:00:08 -0500, D.J. wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> We, my parents and I, visited the dome in Maine where the Telstars
>>>> >>> were controlled from, and the expensive transatlantic phone calls went
>>>> >>> through. I tried to take a photo on the antenna, inside the geodesic
>>>> >>> dome, but I didn't have a flash. I think I still have the B&W photos
>>>> >>> of the exterior.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Could be worth trying to digitally archiving them.
>>>> >
>>>> > Have to find them... in one of around 100 storage boxes in a storage
>>>> > shed where the wasps like to fly around and sting. I do try looking
>>>> > through them. Found some of my early photo albums, but not those
>>>> > pictures.
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> Wow, I thought I was bad! I’ve got probably 30 boxes in my office, and am
>>>> trying to work thru them a few at a time. Easy to toss out the “why did I
>>>> take this” photos if hills and lakes, but that still leaves a lot. My goal
>>>> is to digitize the few of them worth saving and have them all cleaned out.
>>>
>>> Back last century when my dad was in the US Army, he asked the mover
>>> why our furniture weghed so much. The boss of the truck pointed to me
>>> and said half of the weight was mine.
>>>
>>> I have been finding, and shredding into confetti, my university
>>> homework. And other things I don't need.
>>
>> Sad when documents fade out of existence because people who have access
>> don't bother and eventually pass away. A company specialized in clearing
>> out might just turn them into confetti.
>
> Most of the stuff we wrote at university was rather simplistic,
> looking back on it.
>
>> One guy did it though Christmas a few years ago as gift. He had Amiga
>> floppy disks where documents were saved I wrote in the 1980s. He managed
>> to dump the content into a file. And although I don't own an Amiga
>> anymore I could fire up an emulator to see them again. Was a great
>> feeling of nostalgia for me.
>
> I still have the hundred or so Fred Fish floppies I bought for $1 each
> decades ago. My relatives want me to throw them out, probably happen
> after I die.
>
> I have seen them online, so it may not be a loss.

FWIW, when I study these days I do my "homework" in OneNote on a
Surface. Eventually I guess I'll use up my terabyte and have to purge
some of it, but until then there it sits on Microsoft's cloud until
they decided they need the space.
> --
> Jim
Re: Why the Soviet computer failed [message #416123 is a reply to message #415703] Sun, 14 August 2022 02:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Robin Vowels is currently offline  Robin Vowels
Messages: 426
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 8:19:42 AM UTC+10, Roger Blake wrote:
> On 2022-07-27, Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
>> Found this <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnHdqPBrtH8>
>> interesting. Reasons, why the Soviet Union/Russia never caught up to the
>> US in the "computer race".
..
> The Russkie talks big but frankly he's short on know-how. You can't expect
> a bunch of ignorant peons to understand a machine like some of our boys.
..
Well, they did manage to send a rocket to the moon before the Americans,
and built the Concordski (in competition to the Concord).
Re: Why the Soviet computer failed [message #416125 is a reply to message #416123] Sun, 14 August 2022 09:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
D.J. is currently offline  D.J.
Messages: 821
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Sat, 13 Aug 2022 23:20:25 -0700 (PDT), Robin Vowels
<robin.vowels@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 8:19:42 AM UTC+10, Roger Blake wrote:
>> On 2022-07-27, Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>> Found this <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnHdqPBrtH8>
>>> interesting. Reasons, why the Soviet Union/Russia never caught up to the
>>> US in the "computer race".
> .
>> The Russkie talks big but frankly he's short on know-how. You can't expect
>> a bunch of ignorant peons to understand a machine like some of our boys.
> .
> Well, they did manage to send a rocket to the moon before the Americans,
> and built the Concordski (in competition to the Concord).

But their copy of the Space Shuttle never got anywhere.
--
Jim
Re: Why the Soviet computer failed [message #416130 is a reply to message #416125] Sun, 14 August 2022 13:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Sun, 14 Aug 2022 08:26:58 -0500
D.J. <chucktheouch@gmnol.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022 23:20:25 -0700 (PDT), Robin Vowels
> <robin.vowels@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 8:19:42 AM UTC+10, Roger Blake wrote:
>>> On 2022-07-27, Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>>> Found this <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnHdqPBrtH8>
>>>> interesting. Reasons, why the Soviet Union/Russia never caught up to
>>>> the US in the "computer race".
>> .
>>> The Russkie talks big but frankly he's short on know-how. You can't
>>> expect a bunch of ignorant peons to understand a machine like some of
>>> our boys.
>> .
>> Well, they did manage to send a rocket to the moon before the Americans,
>> and built the Concordski (in competition to the Concord).

Also put things, animals and then a man into space while the
Americans were still reeling in shock from beep-beep of Sputnik.

Mir was for a long time the largest and longest occupied thing in
space, the ISS has fairly recently beaten it for longevity. They still hold
the record for the longest anyone has spent in space (437 days), the claim
was they were doing the groundwork for a Mars mission. Until the Soviet
Union collapsed there was every indication that the Russians had the only
serious space program on the planet, around 1980 they were tracked launching
something twice a week on average.

> But their copy of the Space Shuttle never got anywhere.

Bad copy of a crap design, never likely to get anywhere.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Why the Soviet computer failed [message #416131 is a reply to message #416130] Sun, 14 August 2022 15:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: maus

On 2022-08-14, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022 08:26:58 -0500
> D.J. <chucktheouch@gmnol.com> wrote:
>
>
> Mir was for a long time the largest and longest occupied thing in
> space, the ISS has fairly recently beaten it for longevity. They still hold
> the record for the longest anyone has spent in space (437 days), the claim
> was they were doing the groundwork for a Mars mission. Until the Soviet
> Union collapsed there was every indication that the Russians had the only
> serious space program on the planet, around 1980 they were tracked launching
> something twice a week on average.
>
>> But their copy of the Space Shuttle never got anywhere.
>
> Bad copy of a crap design, never likely to get anywhere.
>
My Father and Mother had worked in the US before coming home, and had
great respect for it, as I still do.

My Father subscribed to an US magazine called something like `Men Only',
which had articles proving the USSR space successes were faked. Kinda
like the recenter claims that the US Moonshots were fake as well.


--
greymausg@mail.org

Fe Fi Fo Fum, I smell the stench of an influencer.
We're all going to die, horribly. Have a nice day, meanwhile
Re: Why the Soviet computer failed [message #416132 is a reply to message #416131] Sun, 14 August 2022 16:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 14 Aug 2022 19:52:17 GMT
maus <maus@dmaus.org> wrote:

> My Father subscribed to an US magazine called something like `Men Only',
> which had articles proving the USSR space successes were faked. Kinda
> like the recenter claims that the US Moonshots were fake as well.

Like the moonshots many of the Russian launches were tracked by the
kids at Kettering Grammar School where they built a radio telescope for the
purpose. Now *that* was a real science project!

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Why the Soviet computer failed [message #416133 is a reply to message #416131] Sun, 14 August 2022 16:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
D.J. is currently offline  D.J.
Messages: 821
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 14 Aug 2022 19:52:17 GMT, maus <maus@dmaus.org> wrote:
> On 2022-08-14, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022 08:26:58 -0500
>> D.J. <chucktheouch@gmnol.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Mir was for a long time the largest and longest occupied thing in
>> space, the ISS has fairly recently beaten it for longevity. They still hold
>> the record for the longest anyone has spent in space (437 days), the claim
>> was they were doing the groundwork for a Mars mission. Until the Soviet
>> Union collapsed there was every indication that the Russians had the only
>> serious space program on the planet, around 1980 they were tracked launching
>> something twice a week on average.
>>
>>> But their copy of the Space Shuttle never got anywhere.
>>
>> Bad copy of a crap design, never likely to get anywhere.
>>
> My Father and Mother had worked in the US before coming home, and had
> great respect for it, as I still do.
>
> My Father subscribed to an US magazine called something like `Men Only',
> which had articles proving the USSR space successes were faked. Kinda
> like the recenter claims that the US Moonshots were fake as well.

Some folks like to pretend that space doesn't exist to. But I don't
believe them.

From a show called 'What on earth ? on Science channel, they discuss
the Buran. seems Russia hacked the NASA site, and did their best to
steal NASA's space shuttle plans. But NASA noticed and changed some of
the blueprints in thge files the russians were lookin at. That is why
it failed.

And if either Russia or the U.S's space launches were faked, China
would have gleefully let the world population know.
--
Jim
Re: Why the Soviet computer failed [message #416134 is a reply to message #416132] Sun, 14 August 2022 17:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: maus

On 2022-08-14, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On 14 Aug 2022 19:52:17 GMT
> maus <maus@dmaus.org> wrote:
>
>> My Father subscribed to an US magazine called something like `Men Only',
>> which had articles proving the USSR space successes were faked. Kinda
>> like the recenter claims that the US Moonshots were fake as well.
>
> Like the moonshots many of the Russian launches were tracked by the
> kids at Kettering Grammar School where they built a radio telescope for the
> purpose. Now *that* was a real science project!
>

Yes, a great time for science. If I remember, Jodrell bank (sp?) was
paid for mostly with public subscriptions. Millions of frogs were
tortured to death to fullfill the needs of science courses.


--
greymausg@mail.org

Fe Fi Fo Fum, I smell the stench of an influencer.
We're all going to die, horribly. Have a nice day, meanwhile
Re: Why the Soviet computer failed [message #416135 is a reply to message #416133] Sun, 14 August 2022 17:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Robert Swindells is currently offline  Robert Swindells
Messages: 44
Registered: August 2012
Karma: 0
Member
On Sun, 14 Aug 2022 15:39:32 -0500, D.J. wrote:
>> On 2022-08-14, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022 08:26:58 -0500 D.J. <chucktheouch@gmnol.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> But their copy of the Space Shuttle never got anywhere.
>>>
>>> Bad copy of a crap design, never likely to get anywhere.
>>>
>
> From a show called 'What on earth ? on Science channel, they discuss the
> Buran. seems Russia hacked the NASA site, and did their best to steal
> NASA's space shuttle plans. But NASA noticed and changed some of the
> blueprints in thge files the russians were lookin at. That is why it
> failed.

In what way did it fail?

Buran flew and landed under automatic control, something the Space Shuttle
couldn't do.
Re: Why the Soviet computer failed [message #416136 is a reply to message #416135] Sun, 14 August 2022 17:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
D.J. is currently offline  D.J.
Messages: 821
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Sun, 14 Aug 2022 21:22:00 -0000 (UTC), Robert Swindells
<rjs@fdy2.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022 15:39:32 -0500, D.J. wrote:
>>> On 2022-08-14, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022 08:26:58 -0500 D.J. <chucktheouch@gmnol.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > But their copy of the Space Shuttle never got anywhere.
>>>>
>>>> Bad copy of a crap design, never likely to get anywhere.
>>>>
>>
>> From a show called 'What on earth ? on Science channel, they discuss the
>> Buran. seems Russia hacked the NASA site, and did their best to steal
>> NASA's space shuttle plans. But NASA noticed and changed some of the
>> blueprints in thge files the russians were lookin at. That is why it
>> failed.
>
> In what way did it fail?
>
> Buran flew and landed under automatic control, something the Space Shuttle
> couldn't do.

Thats why I mentioned the name of the show. Someone got into the
storage facility where two Burans are located. Paint peeling, tiles
falling off. etc.
--
Jim
Re: Why the Soviet computer failed [message #416137 is a reply to message #416125] Sun, 14 August 2022 19:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andreas Kohlbach is currently offline  Andreas Kohlbach
Messages: 1456
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Sun, 14 Aug 2022 08:26:58 -0500, D.J. wrote:
>
> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022 23:20:25 -0700 (PDT), Robin Vowels
> <robin.vowels@gmail.com> wrote:
>> .
>> Well, they did manage to send a rocket to the moon before the Americans,
>> and built the Concordski (in competition to the Concord).
>
> But their copy of the Space Shuttle never got anywhere.

But their "B-29" copy did. While their Concorde copy broke in half midair
on a air show (what better place to demonstrate ;-).

That's what the video I mentioned with this thread initially was about:
The USSR wasn't able to get things done the US did.

That still haunts Russia today.
--
Andreas
Re: Why the Soviet computer failed [message #416143 is a reply to message #415725] Sun, 14 August 2022 22:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Anonymous Reactionary

Dan Espen wrote:
> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
>
>> jtmpreno <none@znet.com> writes:
>>> On 7/28/2022 3:19 PM, Roger Blake wrote:
>>>> On 2022-07-27, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>>> > Found this <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnHdqPBrtH8>
>>>> > interesting. Reasons, why the Soviet Union/Russia never caught up to the
>>>> > US in the "computer race".
>>>>
>>>> The Russkie talks big but frankly he's short on know-how. You can't expect
>>>> a bunch of ignorant peons to understand a machine like some of our boys.
>>>
>>> That sounds like it came from Dr. Strangelove.
>>
>> Blake is a noted nutcase.
>
> Actually he has advocated multiple times for killing a full half of
> the population of the USA.

Still better than a Leftist, who wants to kill everyone, including
himself.
Re: Why the Soviet computer failed [message #416144 is a reply to message #415986] Sun, 14 August 2022 22:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Anonymous Reactionary

Quadibloc wrote:
> On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 6:14:50 PM UTC-6, Roger Blake wrote:
>
>> No, I do not want to hold them in camps. They might find their way back.
>> They must be totally and completely eradicated. Turned into vapour and
>> poured into the stratosphere. This is not a "discussion". The Left must
>> be utterly destroyed.
>
> Oh, my.
>
> Well, I guess that makes sense from your point of view. Why, I was just
> watching a video on YouTube about how these left-wingers are too clever
> in escaping from traps for them...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-0YzkmbCUU
>
> Since you include in "the Left" not just destructive extremists,
> but people who believe in freedom,

...to rape little boys.

Other than that, the Left has never believed in freedom.
Re: Why the Soviet computer failed [message #416145 is a reply to message #416137] Sun, 14 August 2022 23:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Robin Vowels is currently offline  Robin Vowels
Messages: 426
Registered: July 2012
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Senior Member
On Monday, August 15, 2022 at 9:39:44 AM UTC+10, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022 08:26:58 -0500, D.J. wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022 23:20:25 -0700 (PDT), Robin Vowels
>> <robin....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> .
>>> Well, they did manage to send a rocket to the moon before the Americans,
>>> and built the Concordski (in competition to the Concord).
>>
>> But their copy of the Space Shuttle never got anywhere.
> But their "B-29" copy did. While their Concorde copy broke in half midair
> on a air show (what better place to demonstrate ;-).
..
The Concordski did not break apart mid-air.
The Russian team required that other aircraft keep a goodly
distance from it while it was in the air.
The Froggies wanted to get a close-up view as Concordski flew,
and got too close.
Concordski took strong evasive action, and the motor(s) cut out.
They were too close to the ground to re-start the engines, and crashed.
..
> That's what the video I mentioned with this thread initially was about:
> The USSR wasn't able to get things done the US did.
>
> That still haunts Russia today.
Re: Why the Soviet computer failed [message #416148 is a reply to message #416137] Mon, 15 August 2022 02:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
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Senior Member
On Sun, 14 Aug 2022 19:39:42 -0400
Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:

> That's what the video I mentioned with this thread initially was about:
> The USSR wasn't able to get things done the US did.

This is called propaganda. The one thing the Soviet Union could not
do that America did was survive the cold war without falling apart.

Yes Concordski and Buran were copies of Western developments, but
Energia certainly wasn't.

Oh and one thing Russia was able to do that the US was not, provide
transport to and from the ISS for most of the last couple of decades.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Why the Soviet computer failed [message #416149 is a reply to message #416148] Mon, 15 August 2022 03:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: maus

On 2022-08-15, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022 19:39:42 -0400
> Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>
>> That's what the video I mentioned with this thread initially was about:
>> The USSR wasn't able to get things done the US did.
>
> This is called propaganda. The one thing the Soviet Union could not
> do that America did was survive the cold war without falling apart.
>
> Yes Concordski and Buran were copies of Western developments, but
> Energia certainly wasn't.
>
> Oh and one thing Russia was able to do that the US was not, provide
> transport to and from the ISS for most of the last couple of decades.
>

The USSR and USA were two different countries, with different aims. The
USSR collapsed because Gorbachov (sp?) believed US propoganda and tried
to build a system like the US. The Arrival of `experts' trained in
Harvard soon finished that. At the last elections in Russia, the
Communist party came a close second, and may have actually won.

Many countries mourn old systems whose bad parts have been forgotten.
Walking around the former East Berlin brought shock when I saw swastikas
sprayed on the walls. (About 2005), and now the AFD rules Thuringia.

Will the US survive the midterm? Is facebook and its ilk for the benefit of people


--
greymausg@mail.org

Fe Fi Fo Fum, I smell the stench of an influencer.
We're all going to die, horribly. have a nice day, meanwhile
Re: Why the Soviet computer failed [message #416151 is a reply to message #416137] Mon, 15 August 2022 10:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
D.J. is currently offline  D.J.
Messages: 821
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Sun, 14 Aug 2022 19:39:42 -0400, Andreas Kohlbach
<ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022 08:26:58 -0500, D.J. wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022 23:20:25 -0700 (PDT), Robin Vowels
>> <robin.vowels@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> .
>>> Well, they did manage to send a rocket to the moon before the Americans,
>>> and built the Concordski (in competition to the Concord).
>>
>> But their copy of the Space Shuttle never got anywhere.
>
> But their "B-29" copy did. While their Concorde copy broke in half midair
> on a air show (what better place to demonstrate ;-).
>
> That's what the video I mentioned with this thread initially was about:
> The USSR wasn't able to get things done the US did.
>
> That still haunts Russia today.

I read about them copying the B-29. I think I read the mention in one
of Martin Caidin's books.
--
Jim
Re: Why the Soviet computer failed [message #416152 is a reply to message #416148] Mon, 15 August 2022 10:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
D.J. is currently offline  D.J.
Messages: 821
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Mon, 15 Aug 2022 07:26:21 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
<steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> Oh and one thing Russia was able to do that the US was not, provide
> transport to and from the ISS for most of the last couple of decades.

Political nonsense in the US caused that. Lack of wanting to go into
Space, and spend money rather on other pet projects.
--
Jim
Re: Why the Soviet computer failed [message #416153 is a reply to message #415669] Mon, 15 August 2022 10:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
D.J. is currently offline  D.J.
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On Mon, 15 Aug 2022 07:44:45 -0400, Andreas Kohlbach
<ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
> On 15 Aug 2022 07:08:31 GMT, maus wrote:
>>
>> The USSR and USA were two different countries, with different aims. The
>> USSR collapsed because Gorbachov (sp?) believed US propoganda and tried
>> to build a system like the US. The Arrival of `experts' trained in
>> Harvard soon finished that. At the last elections in Russia, the
>> Communist party came a close second, and may have actually won.
>
> If won, it would had broken the USSR, pulling the economy down even
> more. On the pro side, Putin might not have had come to power.
>
>> Many countries mourn old systems whose bad parts have been forgotten.
>> Walking around the former East Berlin brought shock when I saw swastikas
>> sprayed on the walls. (About 2005), and now the AFD rules Thuringia.
>
> Until the late 80s the east side of the wall was clean. Graffiti (no
> swastikas though I assume) only on the west side.
>
> The (Berlin) wall itself was amazing itself. There is an interesting
> video from about 2009 using CGI, showing what it would be like if you
> would enter the death strip, plus giving a good history lessons.
>
> If anyone is interested I try to locate it.

On Science Channel there is a program named 'What on Earth ?'. One of
the episodes shows a preserved part of the death zone and the wall.
--
Jim
Re: Why the Soviet computer failed [message #416156 is a reply to message #416148] Mon, 15 August 2022 15:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022 19:39:42 -0400
> Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>
>> That's what the video I mentioned with this thread initially was about:
>> The USSR wasn't able to get things done the US did.
>
> This is called propaganda. The one thing the Soviet Union could not
> do that America did was survive the cold war without falling apart.
>
> Yes Concordski and Buran were copies of Western developments, but
> Energia certainly wasn't.
>
> Oh and one thing Russia was able to do that the US was not, provide
> transport to and from the ISS for most of the last couple of decades.
>

The things the Russians did/do well seem to have been things that were
suited to the application of brute force rather than finesse. They built
big rockets, but, AIUI, they were rather low tech. They built a few big
computers, but not so much LSI, and seem to have remained stuck in the 60s
(I presume they still manufacture computers). They mine/pump a lot of raw
materials but, as events are now showing, rely on the West for a lot of
their modern tech.

--
Pete
Re: Why the Soviet computer failed [message #416157 is a reply to message #416152] Mon, 15 August 2022 15:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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D.J. <chucktheouch@gmnol.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Aug 2022 07:26:21 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
> <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> Oh and one thing Russia was able to do that the US was not, provide
>> transport to and from the ISS for most of the last couple of decades.
>
> Political nonsense in the US caused that. Lack of wanting to go into
> Space, and spend money rather on other pet projects.

Right, and I think we’re now about caught up in power, and “we’re” doing
exponentially more launches than the Russians.

https://www.republicworld.com/world-news/russia-ukraine-cris is/retd-nasa-astronaut-compares-new-us-rocket-to-russias-soy uz-after-halted-engine-supply-articleshow.html

--
Pete
Re: Why the Soviet computer failed [message #416160 is a reply to message #416157] Mon, 15 August 2022 15:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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Senior Member
On Mon, 15 Aug 2022 12:03:45 -0700
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Right, and I think we’re now about caught up in power, and “we’re” doing
> exponentially more launches than the Russians.

Well SpaceX is.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Why the Soviet computer failed [message #416171 is a reply to message #415669] Tue, 16 August 2022 03:03 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: maus

On 2022-08-16, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Aug 2022 09:20:57 -0500, D.J. wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 15 Aug 2022 07:44:45 -0400, Andreas Kohlbach
>>>
>>> The (Berlin) wall itself was amazing itself. There is an interesting
>>> video from about 2009 using CGI, showing what it would be like if you
>>> would enter the death strip, plus giving a good history lessons.
>>>
>>> If anyone is interested I try to locate it.
>>
>> On Science Channel there is a program named 'What on Earth ?'. One of
>> the episodes shows a preserved part of the death zone and the wall.
>
> The video is called "Walled In" at
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwQsTzGkbiY> and runs 11 minutes. For
> those interested what afford the GDR did to keep their citizens in.

Not the first Berlin wall, in Frederick's time there was a wall around Berlin
that controlled who entered and left the city, so the famous story about
the King scanning the list of who entered and left the city that day,
and finding Papa Bach's name on it.

When I was there, around 05 or so, part of the section around the Gate
had chicken wire protecting it from souvanier hunters.

It was very amusing at the time that people were leaving Ireland at the
time,( one of our periodic down cycles) faster than Ossies were leaving
East Germany, yet nobody was noticing.


--
greymausg@mail.org

Fe Fi Fo Fum, I smell the stench of an influencer.
We're all going to die, horribly. Have a nice day, meanwhile
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