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Re: Best dumb terminal for serial connections [message #414557 is a reply to message #414534] Thu, 19 May 2022 16:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Vir Campestris

On 18/05/2022 14:49, Magnus Olsson wrote:
> 2. Nostalgia value, if you first cut your teeth on that kind of equipment.

This.

I have an ICL branded Kokusai terminal on the shelf behind me, and I
need to get around to repairing the PSU on the computer it belongs to.

When I do I know it will power up with the time and date set to the time
and date of my eldest son's birth as the RTC battery is long dead.

My son is pushing 40...

Andy
Re: Best dumb terminal for serial connections [message #414558 is a reply to message #414556] Thu, 19 May 2022 18:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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Registered: December 2011
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Lawrence Statton (NK1G <lawrenabae@abaluon.abaom> wrote:
> cmadams@cmadams.net (Chris Adams) writes:
>
>> Once upon a time, Jason Evans <jsevans@mailfence.com> said:
>>> I'm going to be moving soon and after I get settled in, I would like to find an
>>> dumb terminal that I can use with a serial connection to a raspberry pi. I'd
>>> like any suggestions you might have for such a machine.
>>
>> One additional thought: using a traditional hardware terminal for
>> something modern like a Pi could be problematic - newer stuff like that
>> pretty much assumes full ANSI plus Unicode. ANSI is (more or less) a
>> superset of VT102/VT220, so most escape sequences will work on a classic
>> terminal, but Unicode definitely won't.
>
> Easibus peasibus ... set your locale to iso-8859-1 ... That is
> almost-exactly the Digital Extended Character set. If there's glitches
> it's going to be in something like the ij character.
>
>

It would be a fun project to read a datastream including Unicode characters
and convert the character data to a bitmap to be written to the screen.

--
Pete
Re: Best dumb terminal for serial connections [message #414559 is a reply to message #414555] Thu, 19 May 2022 19:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
chris is currently offline  chris
Messages: 130
Registered: September 2012
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Senior Member
On 05/19/22 20:19, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Thu, 19 May 2022 19:55:40 +0100
> chris<chris-nospam@tridac.net> wrote:
>
>> On 05/19/22 10:56, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>
>>> I use a VT525 with an LCD screen. Real terminal, nice screen. Can't beat
>>> that. :-)
>>>
>>> Johnny
>>
>> Lucky man :-)...
>
> ISTM that a Raspberry Pi, good keyboard, LCD monitor and
> USB<->RS232 dongle could make a very nice terminal - just a SMOP.
>

Right, and there is a packaged pi with inbuilt keyboard available
now. Not too expensive either and could be tempted. Rpi comes of
age, sort of...

Chris
Re: Best dumb terminal for serial connections [message #414561 is a reply to message #414558] Thu, 19 May 2022 23:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: lawrenabae

Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:

> Lawrence Statton (NK1G <lawrenabae@abaluon.abaom> wrote:
>> cmadams@cmadams.net (Chris Adams) writes:
>>
>>> Once upon a time, Jason Evans <jsevans@mailfence.com> said:
>>>> I'm going to be moving soon and after I get settled in, I would like to find an
>>>> dumb terminal that I can use with a serial connection to a raspberry pi. I'd
>>>> like any suggestions you might have for such a machine.
>>>
>>> One additional thought: using a traditional hardware terminal for
>>> something modern like a Pi could be problematic - newer stuff like that
>>> pretty much assumes full ANSI plus Unicode. ANSI is (more or less) a
>>> superset of VT102/VT220, so most escape sequences will work on a classic
>>> terminal, but Unicode definitely won't.
>>
>> Easibus peasibus ... set your locale to iso-8859-1 ... That is
>> almost-exactly the Digital Extended Character set. If there's glitches
>> it's going to be in something like the ij character.
>>
>>
>
> It would be a fun project to read a datastream including Unicode characters
> and convert the character data to a bitmap to be written to the screen.

It's not at all hard, just tedious. First you convert the UTF-8 stream
(since virtually all Unicode text streams use it) into a sequence of
unicode code-points. The trickiest part is dealing with composite
forms. And just the volume - there are currently about 145,000 defined
code-points, and folks are adding more every edition.
Re: Best dumb terminal for serial connections [message #414598 is a reply to message #414509] Fri, 27 May 2022 22:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Rick C

On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 6:57:16 AM UTC-4, Jason Evans wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm going to be moving soon and after I get settled in, I would like to find an
> dumb terminal that I can use with a serial connection to a raspberry pi. I'd
> like any suggestions you might have for such a machine.
>
> The only thing that I ask is that it has a serial port that doesn't require a
> lot of modifications to get going, isn't too rare and therefore expensive, and
> I am partial to amber screens instead of green screens.
>
> Like I said, I'm not looking to buy anything yet but if you have any
> suggestions on what to keep an eye out for, please let me know.

If I needed a serial terminal to manage an rPi, I think I would use another rPi. Isn't that a good solution?

There is a reason why terminals don't exist much anymore.
Re: Best dumb terminal for serial connections [message #414605 is a reply to message #414509] Sun, 29 May 2022 13:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Daiyu Hurst is currently offline  Daiyu Hurst
Messages: 81
Registered: December 2012
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Member
On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 6:57:16 AM UTC-4, Jason Evans wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm going to be moving soon and after I get settled in, I would like to find an
> dumb terminal that I can use with a serial connection to a raspberry pi. I'd
> like any suggestions you might have for such a machine.

My favorite remains the Wyse 50 with an amber phosphor tube. The green phosphor models can be
found, but not the amber. I curse myself for leaving mine behind.

But you have to disable the "Function" key in the lower left of the keyboard (X-Acto). If not,
you will curse every time you press it by mistake.

-Dai
Re: Best dumb terminal for serial connections [message #414607 is a reply to message #414605] Sun, 29 May 2022 15:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On Sun, 29 May 2022 10:29:16 -0700 (PDT)
Daiyu Hurst <daiyu.hurst@gmail.com> wrote:

> My favorite remains the Wyse 50 with an amber phosphor tube. The green
> phosphor models can be found, but not the amber. I curse myself for
> leaving mine behind.

Have you ever tried to reproduce that amber on a colour monitor ?
I've never been able to get it right, I'm not convinced it's possible.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Best dumb terminal for serial connections [message #414609 is a reply to message #414605] Sun, 29 May 2022 22:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: drb

> But you have to disable the "Function" key in the lower left of the
> keyboard (X-Acto). If not, you will curse every time you press it by
> mistake.

We used to put a paper clip through the stem of one of the keys on the
tvi925 for similar reasons. I think it may have been the Print key.
We figured that was a reversible hack.

De
Re: Best dumb terminal for serial connections [message #414615 is a reply to message #414607] Mon, 30 May 2022 11:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Kurt Weiske

To: Ahem A Rivet's Shot
-=> Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote to alt.folklore.computers <=-

> My favorite remains the Wyse 50 with an amber phosphor tube. The green
> phosphor models can be found, but not the amber. I curse myself for
> leaving mine behind.

AAS> Have you ever tried to reproduce that amber on a colour
AAS> monitor ? I've never been able to get it right, I'm not convinced it's
AAS> possible.


Oh, thanks all for the memories. My first job was on a Microdata 9000 Pick
system, with Televideo and Wyse 50/60 terminals.

When it came to the Phosphor Wars of the '80s, I was in both camps.
Green/Hercules graphics on PCs, Amber on terminals.

kurt weiske | kweiske at realitycheckbbs dot org
| http://realitycheckbbs.org
| 1:218/700@fidonet


.... Overtly resist change
--- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
--- Synchronet 3.19c-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
* realitycheckBBS - Aptos, CA - telnet://realitycheckbbs.org
Re: Best dumb terminal for serial connections [message #414616 is a reply to message #414615] Mon, 30 May 2022 12:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4641
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Mon, 30 May 2022 08:14:00 -0700
"Kurt Weiske" <kurt.weiske@realitycheckbbs.org.remove-11c1-this> wrote:

> To: Ahem A Rivet's Shot
> -=> Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote to alt.folklore.computers <=-
>
>> My favorite remains the Wyse 50 with an amber phosphor tube. The green
>> phosphor models can be found, but not the amber. I curse myself for
>> leaving mine behind.
>
> AAS> Have you ever tried to reproduce that amber on a colour
> AAS> monitor ? I've never been able to get it right, I'm not convinced
> AAS> it's possible.
>
>
> Oh, thanks all for the memories. My first job was on a Microdata 9000
> Pick system, with Televideo and Wyse 50/60 terminals.

Must have been about the same time I was using Televideo and Wyse
50 terminals on a Televideo MMMOST setup (hybrid MP/M CP/M with RS422
based star network).

I missed out on encountering Pick, it looked like an interesting
system.

> When it came to the Phosphor Wars of the '80s, I was in both camps.
> Green/Hercules graphics on PCs, Amber on terminals.

There was a cyan phosphor that was really nice but *very* rare I
think, at least I only saw it in one place (on *every* terminal), I don't
recall the make of terminal.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Best dumb terminal for serial connections [message #414617 is a reply to message #414616] Mon, 30 May 2022 14:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: lawrenabe

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
> There was a cyan phosphor that was really nice but *very* rare I
> think, at least I only saw it in one place (on *every* terminal), I don't
> recall the make of terminal.

A Friend-of-a-friend worked in an industry that required him to have a
close working relationship with CRT manufacturers. He was able to
finagle a common 12-inch monochrome CRT with the 'blue from RGB'
phosphor. I do not know if this was a catalog item for the manufacturer
in question (I *seem* to recall Ball Bros, but that's a very fuzzy
memory), or he was able to get them to make a one-off. The former seems
more likely, but the latter is certainly not impossible.
Re: Best dumb terminal for serial connections [message #414618 is a reply to message #414617] Mon, 30 May 2022 14:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
Messages: 4089
Registered: February 2012
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Senior Member
lawrenabe@abaluon.abaom (Lawrence Statton (NK1G)) writes:
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>> There was a cyan phosphor that was really nice but *very* rare I
>> think, at least I only saw it in one place (on *every* terminal), I don't
>> recall the make of terminal.
>
> A Friend-of-a-friend worked in an industry that required him to have a
> close working relationship with CRT manufacturers. He was able to
> finagle a common 12-inch monochrome CRT with the 'blue from RGB'
> phosphor. I do not know if this was a catalog item for the manufacturer
> in question (I *seem* to recall Ball Bros, but that's a very fuzzy
> memory), or he was able to get them to make a one-off. The former seems
> more likely, but the latter is certainly not impossible.
>

The LSI ADM-3A was available with a white phospher that had a blueish tint.

Ball Bros supplied their CRTs
Re: Best dumb terminal for serial connections [message #414619 is a reply to message #414618] Mon, 30 May 2022 22:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: lawrenabae

scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:

> lawrenabe@abaluon.abaom (Lawrence Statton (NK1G)) writes:
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>>> There was a cyan phosphor that was really nice but *very* rare I
>>> think, at least I only saw it in one place (on *every* terminal), I don't
>>> recall the make of terminal.
>>
>> A Friend-of-a-friend worked in an industry that required him to have a
>> close working relationship with CRT manufacturers. He was able to
>> finagle a common 12-inch monochrome CRT with the 'blue from RGB'
>> phosphor. I do not know if this was a catalog item for the manufacturer
>> in question (I *seem* to recall Ball Bros, but that's a very fuzzy
>> memory), or he was able to get them to make a one-off. The former seems
>> more likely, but the latter is certainly not impossible.
>>
>
> The LSI ADM-3A was available with a white phospher that had a blueish tint.
>
> Ball Bros supplied their CRTs

I had *MANY* different ball monitors over the years, and I am fairly
certain that the ten-pin keyed-edge-connector interface was their
devising that took hold in other vendors'.

The CRT I'm referring to above was not a "blueish tint white" -- It was
brilliant blue.
Re: Best dumb terminal for serial connections [message #414621 is a reply to message #414619] Tue, 31 May 2022 16:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Vir Campestris

On 31/05/2022 03:03, Lawrence Statton (NK1G) wrote:
> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
>
>> lawrenabe@abaluon.abaom (Lawrence Statton (NK1G)) writes:
>>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>>>> There was a cyan phosphor that was really nice but *very* rare I
>>>> think, at least I only saw it in one place (on *every* terminal), I don't
>>>> recall the make of terminal.
>>>
>>> A Friend-of-a-friend worked in an industry that required him to have a
>>> close working relationship with CRT manufacturers. He was able to
>>> finagle a common 12-inch monochrome CRT with the 'blue from RGB'
>>> phosphor. I do not know if this was a catalog item for the manufacturer
>>> in question (I *seem* to recall Ball Bros, but that's a very fuzzy
>>> memory), or he was able to get them to make a one-off. The former seems
>>> more likely, but the latter is certainly not impossible.
>>>
>>
>> The LSI ADM-3A was available with a white phospher that had a blueish tint.
>>
>> Ball Bros supplied their CRTs
>
> I had *MANY* different ball monitors over the years, and I am fairly
> certain that the ten-pin keyed-edge-connector interface was their
> devising that took hold in other vendors'.
>
> The CRT I'm referring to above was not a "blueish tint white" -- It was
> brilliant blue.
>
Blue on its own is a really bad choice.

You know how human eyes are basically really rubbish? Very limited field
of view with any detail, poor colour detection, etc?

One of the "features" is that there are fewer blue sensors than the red,
green or grey. Which means we can't resolve blue so easily.

Andy
Re: Best dumb terminal for serial connections [message #414622 is a reply to message #414621] Tue, 31 May 2022 17:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
Messages: 4089
Registered: February 2012
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Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> writes:
> On 31/05/2022 03:03, Lawrence Statton (NK1G) wrote:
>> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
>>
>>> lawrenabe@abaluon.abaom (Lawrence Statton (NK1G)) writes:
>>>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>>>> > There was a cyan phosphor that was really nice but *very* rare I
>>>> > think, at least I only saw it in one place (on *every* terminal), I don't
>>>> > recall the make of terminal.
>>>>
>>>> A Friend-of-a-friend worked in an industry that required him to have a
>>>> close working relationship with CRT manufacturers. He was able to
>>>> finagle a common 12-inch monochrome CRT with the 'blue from RGB'
>>>> phosphor. I do not know if this was a catalog item for the manufacturer
>>>> in question (I *seem* to recall Ball Bros, but that's a very fuzzy
>>>> memory), or he was able to get them to make a one-off. The former seems
>>>> more likely, but the latter is certainly not impossible.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The LSI ADM-3A was available with a white phospher that had a blueish tint.
>>>
>>> Ball Bros supplied their CRTs
>>
>> I had *MANY* different ball monitors over the years, and I am fairly
>> certain that the ten-pin keyed-edge-connector interface was their
>> devising that took hold in other vendors'.
>>
>> The CRT I'm referring to above was not a "blueish tint white" -- It was
>> brilliant blue.
>>
> Blue on its own is a really bad choice.
>
> You know how human eyes are basically really rubbish? Very limited field
> of view with any detail, poor colour detection, etc?
>
> One of the "features" is that there are fewer blue sensors than the red,
> green or grey. Which means we can't resolve blue so easily.

Back when I was designing theatrical lighting for shows, one of the first
things I was taught when working with the set/costume designers on the lighting
color schemes was to avoid pure blue scenes for the reasons you state
(even though they can be evocative for storm scenes).

The rule of thumb was to light one side warm and one side cool when
using the traditional area lighting plan.

I wish modern cinematographers would have learned that lesson about
avoiding blues - so many films/TV today are way too dark for old eyes :-)
Re: Best dumb terminal for serial connections [message #414623 is a reply to message #414622] Tue, 31 May 2022 18:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5158
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
On 2022-05-31, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:

> Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> writes:
>
>> On 31/05/2022 03:03, Lawrence Statton (NK1G) wrote:
>>
>>> The CRT I'm referring to above was not a "blueish tint white" -- It was
>>> brilliant blue.
>>
>> Blue on its own is a really bad choice.
>>
>> You know how human eyes are basically really rubbish? Very limited field
>> of view with any detail, poor colour detection, etc?
>>
>> One of the "features" is that there are fewer blue sensors than the red,
>> green or grey. Which means we can't resolve blue so easily.
>
> Back when I was designing theatrical lighting for shows, one of the first
> things I was taught when working with the set/costume designers on the
> lighting color schemes was to avoid pure blue scenes for the reasons you
> state (even though they can be evocative for storm scenes).
>
> The rule of thumb was to light one side warm and one side cool when
> using the traditional area lighting plan.
>
> I wish modern cinematographers would have learned that lesson about
> avoiding blues - so many films/TV today are way too dark for old eyes :-)

Try blue - it's the new red!
-- Wall-E

I'm tired of this blue fad, and wish we could move on - especially from
our obsession with bright blue LEDs.

Even back in my teens, before those newfangled LEDs were invented,
my eyes couldn't focus on blue (e.g. Christmas lights) - even some
green lights gave them trouble.

Speaking of theatre, one time I was doing sound in a darkened
auditorium, and the blue LED pilot light on the sound board
was so bright that I had to cover it with three layers of
masking tape before I could see anything else.

Who comes up with this stuff?

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.
Re: Best dumb terminal for serial connections [message #414627 is a reply to message #414623] Wed, 01 June 2022 00:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Spencer is currently offline  Mike Spencer
Messages: 966
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:

> Try blue - it's the new red!
> -- Wall-E

()()()()()()


--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
Re: Best dumb terminal for serial connections [message #414632 is a reply to message #414622] Wed, 01 June 2022 04:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Harry Vaderchi is currently offline  Harry Vaderchi
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Senior Member
On Tue, 31 May 2022 21:30:14 GMT
scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:

> Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> writes:
[]
>> One of the "features" is that there are fewer blue sensors than the red,
>> green or grey. Which means we can't resolve blue so easily.
>
> Back when I was designing theatrical lighting for shows, one of the first
> things I was taught when working with the set/costume designers on the lighting
> color schemes was to avoid pure blue scenes for the reasons you state
> (even though they can be evocative for storm scenes).
>
> The rule of thumb was to light one side warm and one side cool when
> using the traditional area lighting plan.
>
> I wish modern cinematographers would have learned that lesson about
> avoiding blues - so many films/TV today are way too dark for old eyes :-)

Orange & Teal - urgh.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
Re: Best dumb terminal for serial connections [message #414635 is a reply to message #414623] Wed, 01 June 2022 09:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
D.J. is currently offline  D.J.
Messages: 688
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Tue, 31 May 2022 22:15:01 GMT, Charlie Gibbs
<cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2022-05-31, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>
>> Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>
>>> On 31/05/2022 03:03, Lawrence Statton (NK1G) wrote:
>>>
>>>> The CRT I'm referring to above was not a "blueish tint white" -- It was
>>>> brilliant blue.
>>>
>>> Blue on its own is a really bad choice.
>>>
>>> You know how human eyes are basically really rubbish? Very limited field
>>> of view with any detail, poor colour detection, etc?
>>>
>>> One of the "features" is that there are fewer blue sensors than the red,
>>> green or grey. Which means we can't resolve blue so easily.
>>
>> Back when I was designing theatrical lighting for shows, one of the first
>> things I was taught when working with the set/costume designers on the
>> lighting color schemes was to avoid pure blue scenes for the reasons you
>> state (even though they can be evocative for storm scenes).
>>
>> The rule of thumb was to light one side warm and one side cool when
>> using the traditional area lighting plan.
>>
>> I wish modern cinematographers would have learned that lesson about
>> avoiding blues - so many films/TV today are way too dark for old eyes :-)
>
> Try blue - it's the new red!
> -- Wall-E
>
> I'm tired of this blue fad, and wish we could move on - especially from
> our obsession with bright blue LEDs.
>
> Even back in my teens, before those newfangled LEDs were invented,
> my eyes couldn't focus on blue (e.g. Christmas lights) - even some
> green lights gave them trouble.
>
> Speaking of theatre, one time I was doing sound in a darkened
> auditorium, and the blue LED pilot light on the sound board
> was so bright that I had to cover it with three layers of
> masking tape before I could see anything else.
>
> Who comes up with this stuff?

Most likely by people who don't have to use it.
--
Jim
Re: Best dumb terminal for serial connections [message #414637 is a reply to message #414621] Wed, 01 June 2022 12:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: lawrenabae

Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> writes:
> Blue on its own is a really bad choice.

De gustibus non est disputandum.

I probably would not have chosen it for serious work, but it was not my
decision to make.
Re: Best dumb terminal for serial connections [message #414638 is a reply to message #414509] Wed, 01 June 2022 18:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: John Goerzen

On 2022-05-17, Jason Evans <jsevans@mailfence.com> wrote:
> I'm going to be moving soon and after I get settled in, I would like to find an
> dumb terminal that I can use with a serial connection to a raspberry pi. I'd
> like any suggestions you might have for such a machine.

I'm fond of the DEC vt510. Unlike many dumb terminals, it accepts a standard PC
PS/2 keyboard and also supports key remapping, so you can finally get Ctrl where
it should be - left of A.

The downside is that it uses DTR/DTS instead of CTR/CTS for hardware flow
control, which isn't supported on Linux. So, you can either wire your own
serial cable or use software flow control. Somewhat to my surprise, I've found
that these old dumb terminals can't keep up with line rate very well. I run my
vt510 at 57600bps but definitely need the flow control for things with heavy
escape sequences.

- John
Re: Best dumb terminal for serial connections [message #414639 is a reply to message #414550] Wed, 01 June 2022 19:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: John Goerzen

On 2022-05-19, Chris Adams <cmadams@cmadams.net> wrote:
> One additional thought: using a traditional hardware terminal for
> something modern like a Pi could be problematic - newer stuff like that
> pretty much assumes full ANSI plus Unicode. ANSI is (more or less) a
> superset of VT102/VT220, so most escape sequences will work on a classic
> terminal, but Unicode definitely won't.

GNU screen can do this kind of conversion. I use it with my vt510 and it works
perfectly. My .screenrc:

defflow on
defencoding UTF-8
vbell off
termcapinfo * XC=B%,‐-,

# From https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/8439/gnu-screen-mak es-vim-esc-key-slow
# Could also try maptimeout 0
maptimeout 5

# https://stackoverflow.com/questions/4548106/screen-somehow-u nmaps-my-arrow-keys-in-emacs-after-a-z
# to try to resolve arrow key issues in less and others
bindkey -k ku stuff ^[OA
bindkey -k kd stuff ^[OB
bindkey -k kr stuff ^[OC
bindkey -k kl stuff ^[OD
Re: Best dumb terminal for serial connections [message #414640 is a reply to message #414616] Tue, 31 May 2022 10:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Kurt Weiske

To: Ahem A Rivet's Shot
-=> Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote to alt.folklore.computers <=-

AAS> Must have been about the same time I was using Televideo and
AAS> Wyse 50 terminals on a Televideo MMMOST setup (hybrid MP/M CP/M with
AAS> RS422 based star network).

AAS> I missed out on encountering Pick, it looked like an
AAS> interesting system.

It was - the file system was a data dictionary, and access was through a
version of BASIC or a relational DB language called REALITY that was pretty
close to structured SQL.

That was a fun gig - working at a university bookstore, writing full-screen
inventory query tools, a rudimentary email system, a chat system and
tweaking all sorts of "glue" apps to connect the POS system with accounting
and inventory, writing systems to translate book orders into EDI format, and
more - all in BASIC and SQL as a 22 year-old student.

kurt weiske | kweiske at realitycheckbbs dot org
| http://realitycheckbbs.org
| 1:218/700@fidonet








.... Make a blank valuable by putting it in an exquisite frame
--- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
--- Synchronet 3.19c-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
* realitycheckBBS - Aptos, CA - telnet://realitycheckbbs.org
Re: Best dumb terminal for serial connections [message #414641 is a reply to message #414509] Wed, 01 June 2022 23:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Chris Hanson is currently offline  Chris Hanson
Messages: 26
Registered: September 2017
Karma: 0
Junior Member
For a generic terminal to use with pretty much anything, it's hard to go
wrong with an HP 700/96 or 700/98. They have great DEC emulation, full
HP blockmode/forms support (required if you ever want to connect it to
an ancient HP system running a non-UNIX operating system), and unlike
DEC terminals—which are all seen as "desirable"—the "modern" HP
terminals are on the inexpensive side.

The downside is that, unlike the very last models of DEC terminal
(VT510/VT520/VT525), they still use a custom keyboard, but there are
both PC-101 and HP-ITF layouts and the keyboards aren't that "desirable"
so, again, they tend to be inexpensive. And personally I like the HP-ITF
layout if I ever need to use vi since the escape key is in a pretty
convenient place.

The more important thing is to set up a decent RS-232 port on the
Raspberry Pi (or whatever else you use it with). Three-wire serial
(transmit/receive/ground) will work just fine with XON/XOFF in-band flow
control as long as you adjust the levels between TTL and RS-232, such as
with an MC1488/MC1489 pair or something like that, but to really fly
you'll want full hardware flow control at proper RS-232 voltage levels.
(The latter is something I've heard some USB-serial adapters fail at.)
This guide has a lot of good and detailed information:
<http://www.deater.net/weave/vmwprod/hardware/pi-rts/>

-- Chris
Re: Best dumb terminal for serial connections [message #414712 is a reply to message #414623] Thu, 09 June 2022 17:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charles Richmond is currently offline  Charles Richmond
Messages: 2681
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 5/31/2022 5:15 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2022-05-31, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>
>
]... snip ...] ]... snip ...] ]... snip ...]
>
> Speaking of theatre, one time I was doing sound in a darkened
> auditorium, and the blue LED pilot light on the sound board
> was so bright that I had to cover it with three layers of
> masking tape before I could see anything else.
>
> Who comes up with this stuff?
>

"I used to criticize bad decisions... until I realized that someone was
making money from doing it this way."

-- Paraphrased from Charlie Gibbs

--

Charles Richmond

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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Re: Best dumb terminal for serial connections [message #414713 is a reply to message #414712] Fri, 10 June 2022 02:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Spencer is currently offline  Mike Spencer
Messages: 966
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Charles Richmond <codescott@aquaporin4.com> writes:

> On 5/31/2022 5:15 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> On 2022-05-31, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>>
>>
> ]... snip ...] ]... snip ...] ]... snip ...]
>>
>> Speaking of theatre, one time I was doing sound in a darkened
>> auditorium, and the blue LED pilot light on the sound board
>> was so bright that I had to cover it with three layers of
>> masking tape before I could see anything else.
>>
>> Who comes up with this stuff?
>
> "I used to criticize bad decisions... until I realized that someone was
> making money from doing it this way."
>
> -- Paraphrased from Charlie Gibbs


You have meddled with the primal forces of nature, Mr. Beale,
and I won't have it! Is that clear?....There are no
nations. There are no peoples. There are no Russians. There are
no Arabs. There are no third worlds. There is no West. There is
only one holistic system of systems, one vast and immane,
interwoven, interacting, multivariate, multinational dominion
of dollars.
-- Arthur Jensen, in _Network_


--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
Re: Best dumb terminal for serial connections [message #414770 is a reply to message #414509] Wed, 15 June 2022 16:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jan van den Broek is currently offline  Jan van den Broek
Messages: 59
Registered: April 2012
Karma: 0
Member
Tue, 17 May 2022 12:57:02 +0200
Jason Evans <jsevans@mailfence.com> schrieb:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm going to be moving soon and after I get settled in, I would like to find an
> dumb terminal that I can use with a serial connection to a raspberry pi. I'd
> like any suggestions you might have for such a machine.
>
> The only thing that I ask is that it has a serial port that doesn't require a
> lot of modifications to get going, isn't too rare and therefore expensive, and
> I am partial to amber screens instead of green screens.
>
> Like I said, I'm not looking to buy anything yet but if you have any
> suggestions on what to keep an eye out for, please let me know.

Not a dumb terminal, I'm using a 386sx (MS-DOS 5.0) with Telix.
--
A tuna is a way of Liff

Jan v/d Broek
balglaas@xs4all.nl
Re: Best dumb terminal for serial connections [message #414771 is a reply to message #414770] Wed, 15 June 2022 16:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: John Goerzen

On 2022-06-15, Jan van den Broek <fortytwo@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>> Like I said, I'm not looking to buy anything yet but if you have any
>> suggestions on what to keep an eye out for, please let me know.
>
> Not a dumb terminal, I'm using a 386sx (MS-DOS 5.0) with Telix.

How's its performance?

I've been somewhat astonished at how horribly slow the real dumb terminals are.

Even my vt510, which seems to be the fastest, has to use XOFF when I start emacs
because it can't keep up with the escape sequences at that point and drops them,
unless I set it all the way down to 9600bps (it will support line rates up to
115200bps). Something of an additional annoyance is that these real dumb
terminals support hardware flow control, but using the DTR pin, not RTS/CTS, and
that isn't supported on Linux (though it is on FreeBSD).

My Wyse WY-55 is worse than the vt510, and my IBM 3151 won't even support a line
rate above 19200.

John
Re: Best dumb terminal for serial connections [message #414772 is a reply to message #414509] Wed, 15 June 2022 17:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cb is currently offline  cb
Messages: 298
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
In article <t5vv2a$8mf$1@dont-email.me>,
Jason Evans <jsevans@mailfence.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm going to be moving soon and after I get settled in, I would like to find an
> dumb terminal that I can use with a serial connection to a raspberry pi. I'd
> like any suggestions you might have for such a machine.
>
> The only thing that I ask is that it has a serial port that doesn't require a
> lot of modifications to get going, isn't too rare and therefore expensive, and
> I am partial to amber screens instead of green screens.
>
> Like I said, I'm not looking to buy anything yet but if you have any
> suggestions on what to keep an eye out for, please let me know.

There is the VT-69:

http://violence.works/
https://hackaday.io/project/163829-vt-69-handheld-terminal

> Jason

// Christian
Re: Best dumb terminal for serial connections [message #414773 is a reply to message #414771] Wed, 15 June 2022 17:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5158
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2022-06-15, John Goerzen <jgoerzen@complete.org> wrote:

> On 2022-06-15, Jan van den Broek <fortytwo@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>
>>> Like I said, I'm not looking to buy anything yet but if you have any
>>> suggestions on what to keep an eye out for, please let me know.
>>
>> Not a dumb terminal, I'm using a 386sx (MS-DOS 5.0) with Telix.
>
> How's its performance?
>
> I've been somewhat astonished at how horribly slow the real dumb
> terminals are.
>
> Even my vt510, which seems to be the fastest, has to use XOFF when I
> start emacs because it can't keep up with the escape sequences at that
> point and drops them, unless I set it all the way down to 9600bps (it
> will support line rates up to 115200bps).

C'mon, 9600 bps was blazingly fast in those days. That's as fast as my
Heath 19 would go prior to the Super 19 upgrade - and even then it would
struggle at 19200.

> Something of an additional annoyance is that these real dumb terminals
> support hardware flow control, but using the DTR pin, not RTS/CTS, and
> that isn't supported on Linux (though it is on FreeBSD).

Looks like it's time to wire up a custom RS-232 cable crossing DTR and
RTS...

> My Wyse WY-55 is worse than the vt510, and my IBM 3151 won't even
> support a line rate above 19200.

The Univac 90/30s I worked on in the late '70s offered an async option
if you really wanted it, although the standard was synchronous at up
to 9600 bps. (With modems costing about a dollar per bps, 9600 was
reserved to cable runs within the building unless you had _really_
deep pockets.) The async port wouldn't go any faster than 2400 bps -
async is a low-speed protocol, doncha know. :-)

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.
Re: Best dumb terminal for serial connections [message #414774 is a reply to message #414772] Wed, 15 June 2022 17:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5158
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2022-06-15, Christian Brunschen <cb@elaine.df.lth.se> wrote:

> In article <t5vv2a$8mf$1@dont-email.me>,
> Jason Evans <jsevans@mailfence.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I'm going to be moving soon and after I get settled in, I would like
>> to find an dumb terminal that I can use with a serial connection to
>> a raspberry pi. I'd like any suggestions you might have for such a
>> machine.
>>
>> The only thing that I ask is that it has a serial port that doesn't
>> require a lot of modifications to get going, isn't too rare and
>> therefore expensive, and I am partial to amber screens instead of
>> green screens.
>>
>> Like I said, I'm not looking to buy anything yet but if you have any
>> suggestions on what to keep an eye out for, please let me know.
>
> There is the VT-69:
>
> http://violence.works/
> https://hackaday.io/project/163829-vt-69-handheld-terminal

How delightfully perverse! I'm gratified to see that they spelled
"DE-9" correctly. I'm tired of correcting all the people who insist
on calling it "DB-9".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-subminiature

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.
Re: Best dumb terminal for serial connections [message #414779 is a reply to message #414771] Wed, 15 June 2022 23:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charles Richmond is currently offline  Charles Richmond
Messages: 2681
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 6/15/2022 3:55 PM, John Goerzen wrote:
> On 2022-06-15, Jan van den Broek <fortytwo@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>>> Like I said, I'm not looking to buy anything yet but if you have any
>>> suggestions on what to keep an eye out for, please let me know.
>>
>> Not a dumb terminal, I'm using a 386sx (MS-DOS 5.0) with Telix.
>
> How's its performance?
>
[... snip ...] [... snip ...] [... snip ...]

>
> My Wyse WY-55 is worse than the vt510, and my IBM 3151 won't even support a line
> rate above 19200.
>

At a PPOE, I used a Digital Equipment VT-220 which was attached via a
termserver to an ethernet network to rlogin to one of the workstations.
This terminal could keep up with listing out a file at 19200 baud...
as long as all the lines had only 40 characters or less. If the file
had a grouping of lines with 70 or 80 characters, the speed of the
display would bog down...

I did *not* like the 220 for many reasons... not the least being that
the escape key was badly placed. We were running SVR4 Unix. But the
terminal had a monochrome amber display.


--

Charles Richmond

--
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Re: Best dumb terminal for serial connections [message #414781 is a reply to message #414779] Thu, 16 June 2022 01:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5158
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2022-06-16, Charles Richmond <codescott@aquaporin4.com> wrote:

> At a PPOE, I used a Digital Equipment VT-220 which was attached via a
> termserver to an ethernet network to rlogin to one of the workstations.
> This terminal could keep up with listing out a file at 19200 baud...
> as long as all the lines had only 40 characters or less. If the file
> had a grouping of lines with 70 or 80 characters, the speed of the
> display would bog down...

Interesting. I was thinking of overhead involved in scrolling the
screen, but this sounds different. Maybe it was smart enough to
recognize short lines and not bother shifting blank areas.

The Univac mainframe terminals I worked with had serious scrolling
overhead; they would take 20 milliseconds to scroll an entire screen
of data, and they were blind to incoming data during that time.
At 9600 bps you had to pad each scroll sequence with 20 NULs
to avoid data loss.

> I did *not* like the 220 for many reasons... not the least being that
> the escape key was badly placed. We were running SVR4 Unix. But the
> terminal had a monochrome amber display.

The escape key was the least of your worries. Although the VT-100
had quite a nice keyboard, the designers dropped the ball on the
VT-220 and successors, incorporating the worst misfeatures of the
original IBM Personal Computer keyboard: the extra key between Z
and shift, and the remotely-placed return key.

Fortunately I never had to use any of the later DEC terminals.
The horrors that Univac perpetrated on their later keyboards,
however, were even worse.

IBM has a lot to answer for: in this case, setting keyboard
design back 10 years.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.
Re: Best dumb terminal for serial connections [message #414786 is a reply to message #414771] Thu, 16 June 2022 17:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8181
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
John Goerzen <jgoerzen@complete.org> wrote:
> On 2022-06-15, Jan van den Broek <fortytwo@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>>> Like I said, I'm not looking to buy anything yet but if you have any
>>> suggestions on what to keep an eye out for, please let me know.
>>
>> Not a dumb terminal, I'm using a 386sx (MS-DOS 5.0) with Telix.
>
> How's its performance?
>
> I've been somewhat astonished at how horribly slow the real dumb terminals are.
>
> Even my vt510, which seems to be the fastest, has to use XOFF when I start emacs
> because it can't keep up with the escape sequences at that point and drops them,
> unless I set it all the way down to 9600bps (it will support line rates up to
> 115200bps). Something of an additional annoyance is that these real dumb
> terminals support hardware flow control, but using the DTR pin, not RTS/CTS, and
> that isn't supported on Linux (though it is on FreeBSD).
>
> My Wyse WY-55 is worse than the vt510, and my IBM 3151 won't even support a line
> rate above 19200.
>
> John
>

The escape sequences were a bit slower than just displaying data, but what
could you DO with a faster terminal? How fast can you read data as it
scrolls by on the screen?

--
Pete
Re: Best dumb terminal for serial connections [message #414787 is a reply to message #414786] Thu, 16 June 2022 17:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joe Pfeiffer is currently offline  Joe Pfeiffer
Messages: 750
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
I wrote a terminal emulator that ran on Datapoint workstations once...
it turned out there was an array of pointers, one for each line of
text to display (graphics? Surely you jest. This was a business
machine). Things like scrolling were much quicker than they'd have been
if I'd actually had to move the text around.
Re: Best dumb terminal for serial connections [message #414788 is a reply to message #414771] Thu, 16 June 2022 18:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4641
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Wed, 15 Jun 2022 20:55:19 -0000 (UTC)
John Goerzen <jgoerzen@complete.org> wrote:

> Something of an additional annoyance is that these real dumb
> terminals support hardware flow control, but using the DTR pin, not
> RTS/CTS, and that isn't supported on Linux (though it is on FreeBSD).

There's a reason so many of us carried RS232 break out boxes, patch
boxes, gender benders etc. Black Box did a very handy set back in the day,
I saw some bits of mine a couple of years ago.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Best dumb terminal for serial connections [message #414790 is a reply to message #414788] Thu, 16 June 2022 20:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joe Pfeiffer is currently offline  Joe Pfeiffer
Messages: 750
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:

> On Wed, 15 Jun 2022 20:55:19 -0000 (UTC)
> John Goerzen <jgoerzen@complete.org> wrote:
>
>> Something of an additional annoyance is that these real dumb
>> terminals support hardware flow control, but using the DTR pin, not
>> RTS/CTS, and that isn't supported on Linux (though it is on FreeBSD).
>
> There's a reason so many of us carried RS232 break out boxes, patch
> boxes, gender benders etc. Black Box did a very handy set back in the day,
> I saw some bits of mine a couple of years ago.

I think I still have mine... hmmm.... yep. Just found it. Made by
Inmac.
Re: Best dumb terminal for serial connections [message #414793 is a reply to message #414790] Fri, 17 June 2022 01:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4641
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Thu, 16 Jun 2022 18:30:11 -0600
Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote:

> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>
>> On Wed, 15 Jun 2022 20:55:19 -0000 (UTC)
>> John Goerzen <jgoerzen@complete.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Something of an additional annoyance is that these real dumb
>>> terminals support hardware flow control, but using the DTR pin, not
>>> RTS/CTS, and that isn't supported on Linux (though it is on FreeBSD).
>>
>> There's a reason so many of us carried RS232 break out boxes,
>> patch boxes, gender benders etc. Black Box did a very handy set back in
>> the day, I saw some bits of mine a couple of years ago.
>
> I think I still have mine... hmmm.... yep. Just found it. Made by
> Inmac.

Oh ye glods Inmac - for a while I got three of their catalogues at
a time because they hated to lose any circulation.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Best dumb terminal for serial connections [message #414794 is a reply to message #414781] Fri, 17 June 2022 03:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Michael Cardell Widerkrantz

Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>, 2022-06-16 05:00 (+0000):

> Although the VT-100 had quite a nice keyboard, the designers dropped
> the ball on the VT-220 and successors, incorporating the worst
> misfeatures of the original IBM Personal Computer keyboard: the extra
> key between Z and shift, and the remotely-placed return key.

There was the DEC LK421 "Unix keyboard", though:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:LK421.jpg

--
MC, https://hack.org/mc/
Re: Best dumb terminal for serial connections [message #414799 is a reply to message #414787] Sat, 18 June 2022 08:48 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Freddy1X is currently offline  Freddy1X
Messages: 59
Registered: August 2012
Karma: 0
Member
Joe Pfeiffer wrote:

> I wrote a terminal emulator that ran on Datapoint workstations once...
> it turned out there was an array of pointers, one for each line of
> text to display (graphics? Surely you jest. This was a business
> machine). Things like scrolling were much quicker than they'd have been
> if I'd actually had to move the text around.

Was that on a 2200/5500/6600 series, or a 1500, or an 1800/3800 series.
Maybe I forgot some of them.

--
Carefully cut along this line.

/|>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>\|
/| I may be demented \|
/| but I'm not crazy! \|
/|<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<\|
* SPAyM trap: there is no X in my address *
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