| Re: Christmas 1989 [message #417848 is a reply to message #417844] |
Sat, 19 November 2022 12:57   |
|
|
Originally posted by: Carlos E.R.
On 2022-11-19 15:40, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Nov 2022 15:02:15 +0100
> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Where did you get that UTF-8-demo.txt file?
>
> It originated with Markus Kuhn at Cambridge (dated 2002). I'm not
> sure now where I found it (some unicode info site possibly belonging to
> the consortium), but you can find it here if you want:
>
> http://www.sohara.org/Misc/UTF-8-demo.txt
>
I cut a bit of it to another file, not wanting to waste a lot of paper,
and tried: it only printed a single line.
I guess the printer want CR·LF terminated lines.
cer@Telcontar:~/samples> unix2dos -n p p1
unix2dos: converting file p to file p1 in DOS format...
cer@Telcontar:~/samples> file p p1
p: UTF-8 Unicode text
p1: UTF-8 Unicode text, with CRLF line terminators
cer@Telcontar:~/samples>
cer@Telcontar:~/samples> lpr -o raw p1
cer@Telcontar:~/samples>
And it printed garbage, as I expected.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Christmas 1989 [message #417860 is a reply to message #417735] |
Mon, 21 November 2022 11:24 |
D.J.
Messages: 821
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Wed, 16 Nov 2022 18:53:25 -0500, Andreas Kohlbach
<ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Nov 2022 17:15:38 -0000 (UTC), Ben Collver wrote:
>>
>> On 2022-11-15, greymaus <greymaus@dmaus.org> wrote:
>>> On 2022-11-15, Ben Collver <bencollver@tilde.pink> wrote:
>>>> Nice question. Do you mean the me of the present, or me as i was in
>>>> 1989? On the exotic front, i'd consider the MSX2+
>>>>
>>>> https://www.msx.org/wiki/Panasonic_FS-A1WSX
>>>
>>> That was the one, made by several companies, but with the same OS..Nice
>>> keyboard?.. I have one regret, buying a spectrum instead of a C64.
>>> The Amiga was whole generation ahead of the MSX.
>>
>> I like that the MSX had an open specification.
>>
>> An uncle of a friend used an Amiga for video production in the early
>> 90's. The Amiga was definitely ahead. OTOH, the Amiga and MSX game
>> lists are both about 2,000 games long.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_MSX_games
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Amiga_games
>
> Amazing the Amiga didn't really kick off in the US. From 1985 to may be
> 1988 (which was a "generation" or two back then) it blew everything out
> of the water, especially at that price. Like the IBM PC and its clones. And
> the Macintosh only just got color and couldn't even do preemptive
> multitasking.
>
> Amazing the Amiga didn't really caught on in the US.
I had an Amiga then. Most people wanted to know why it didn't run
ms-dos programs. One person tried to tell me if it didn't run ms-dos,
it was illegal. Many claimed, as they saw me using an Amiga computer,
that such machines didn't exist. All in the US.
--
Jim
|
|
|
|
| Re: Christmas 1989 [message #417861 is a reply to message #417825] |
Mon, 21 November 2022 11:31 |
D.J.
Messages: 821
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Fri, 18 Nov 2022 18:47:01 +0000, "Kerr-Mudd, John"
<admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Nov 2022 18:01:51 GMT
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 2022-11-18, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>
>>> However IBM published every detail of the PC (and AT) and the
>>> market for a cheap IBM workalike was so obvious that it exploded almost
>>> instantly and became brutally competitive.
>>
>> IBM realized their error and tried to reverse it with MicroChannel,
>> but it was too late; as with Pandora, the box had been opened and
>> couldn't be closed again.
>>
>>> Notice that IBM no longer play in the market they created,
>>> they've retreated to their comfort zone of high support mainframes.
>>
>> They don't like to play in areas they can't control, and they
>> realized they had lost control of the PC.
>>
> They also tried with Token Ring to get into the PC networking market;
> another fail. (more proprietry h/w and worse of all, slower).
For a very short time my university had Token Ring in the admin
building and the student lab.
More than once, "What is this for ?" and the student unplugs the
cable.
--
Jim
|
|
|
|
| Re: Christmas 1989 [message #417862 is a reply to message #417861] |
Mon, 21 November 2022 12:43 |
Harry Vaderchi
Messages: 719
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Mon, 21 Nov 2022 10:31:42 -0600
D.J. <chucktheouch@gmnol.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Nov 2022 18:47:01 +0000, "Kerr-Mudd, John"
> <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Nov 2022 18:01:51 GMT
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2022-11-18, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> However IBM published every detail of the PC (and AT) and the
>>>> market for a cheap IBM workalike was so obvious that it exploded almost
>>>> instantly and became brutally competitive.
>>>
>>> IBM realized their error and tried to reverse it with MicroChannel,
>>> but it was too late; as with Pandora, the box had been opened and
>>> couldn't be closed again.
>>>
>>>> Notice that IBM no longer play in the market they created,
>>>> they've retreated to their comfort zone of high support mainframes.
>>>
>>> They don't like to play in areas they can't control, and they
>>> realized they had lost control of the PC.
>>>
>> They also tried with Token Ring to get into the PC networking market;
>> another fail. (more proprietry h/w and worse of all, slower).
>
> For a very short time my university had Token Ring in the admin
> building and the student lab.
>
> More than once, "What is this for ?" and the student unplugs the
> cable.
That was another thing; really clunky connectors (even if it was
hermaphroditic):
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_WibILqsOlLg/TERCVsQsw0I/AAAAAAAAAu 0/3Keynxh6YMU/s320/tokenring.jpg
--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Christmas 1989 [message #417863 is a reply to message #417860] |
Mon, 21 November 2022 14:18 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On 2022-11-21, D.J <chucktheouch@gmnol.com> wrote:
> I had an Amiga then. Most people wanted to know why it didn't run
> ms-dos programs.
Because you didn't put a bridge board in it. :-)
I did a lot of MS-DOS development work on my Amiga,
first with a 286 bridge board, later a 386SX bridge board.
> One person tried to tell me if it didn't run ms-dos,
> it was illegal.
Well, "PC" also stands for Politically Correct...
> Many claimed, as they saw me using an Amiga computer,
> that such machines didn't exist. All in the US.
That reminds me of the 1984 lightbulb joke:
Q: How many thought police does it take to change a light bulb?
A: There never was a light bulb.
See my .sig.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Christmas 1989 [message #417864 is a reply to message #417863] |
Mon, 21 November 2022 15:27 |
|
|
Originally posted by: greymaus
On 2022-11-21, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2022-11-21, D.J <chucktheouch@gmnol.com> wrote:
>
>> I had an Amiga then. Most people wanted to know why it didn't run
>> ms-dos programs.
>
> Because you didn't put a bridge board in it. :-)
> I did a lot of MS-DOS development work on my Amiga,
> first with a 286 bridge board, later a 386SX bridge board.
>
>> One person tried to tell me if it didn't run ms-dos,
>> it was illegal.
>
> Well, "PC" also stands for Politically Correct...
>
>> Many claimed, as they saw me using an Amiga computer,
>> that such machines didn't exist. All in the US.
>
> That reminds me of the 1984 lightbulb joke:
>
> Q: How many thought police does it take to change a light bulb?
> A: There never was a light bulb.
>
> See my .sig.
>
I had a bridgeboard for ms.dos. I had decided to get a PC and have it
boot to either Linux or Windows (The first one, I think), so I had that
working, when Xmas week arrived, and a present was required for someone
that I couldn't be bothered to visit, and the enhanced Amiga was sent on
to amuse the people at the party. It came back later with the board
removed, and a cigarette burn where it had been. Never again. The PC was
a quality built machine, that crowd that had cows as an advertisement.
My daughter told me recently that _her_ daughter had asked her to be
absent for the girls Xmas party. Do things ever change?.
Happy thanksgiving to all USAians.
--
greymausg@mail.com
Fe, Fi, Fo, Fum, I smell the stench of an Influencer.
Where is our money gone, Dude?
|
|
|
|
| Re: Christmas 1989 [message #417868 is a reply to message #417863] |
Tue, 22 November 2022 02:01 |
Andreas Kohlbach
Messages: 1456
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Mon, 21 Nov 2022 19:18:28 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
> On 2022-11-21, D.J <chucktheouch@gmnol.com> wrote:
>
>> I had an Amiga then. Most people wanted to know why it didn't run
>> ms-dos programs.
>
> Because you didn't put a bridge board in it. :-)
> I did a lot of MS-DOS development work on my Amiga,
> first with a 286 bridge board, later a 386SX bridge board.
I remember on the Amiga's introduction at Lincoln Center in NYC in 1985
they showed an MS-DOS emulator booted from floppy IIRC towards the end of
the show. Almost like it would had been Steve Jobs almost leaving the
stage and saying: "Oh, one more thing".
This show is available on Youtube (probably elsewhere) and not only Amiga
fans should have watched it.
There are also some rumors that when Andy Warhol digitized Debbie Harry
and did some "art" on the Amiga he was told before not to use the
bucket-fill function of Deluxe Paint, as the program was still alpha and
that function buggy. But he did, and because it was a life show the
producers started shitting bricks. Luckily the program did not crash.
Awesome presentation!
--
Andreas
https://news-commentaries.blogspot.com/
|
|
|
|
| Re: Christmas 1989 [message #417872 is a reply to message #417864] |
Tue, 22 November 2022 11:22 |
|
|
Originally posted by: Ching Chang Chong
On 11/21/22 14:27, greymaus wrote:
> On 2022-11-21, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2022-11-21, D.J <chucktheouch@gmnol.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I had an Amiga then. Most people wanted to know why it didn't run
>>> ms-dos programs.
>>
>> Because you didn't put a bridge board in it. :-)
>> I did a lot of MS-DOS development work on my Amiga,
>> first with a 286 bridge board, later a 386SX bridge board.
>>
>>> One person tried to tell me if it didn't run ms-dos,
>>> it was illegal.
>>
>> Well, "PC" also stands for Politically Correct...
>>
>>> Many claimed, as they saw me using an Amiga computer,
>>> that such machines didn't exist. All in the US.
>>
>> That reminds me of the 1984 lightbulb joke:
>>
>> Q: How many thought police does it take to change a light bulb?
>> A: There never was a light bulb.
>>
>> See my .sig.
>>
>
> I had a bridgeboard for ms.dos. I had decided to get a PC and have it
> boot to either Linux or Windows (The first one, I think), so I had that
> working, when Xmas week arrived, and a present was required for someone
> that I couldn't be bothered to visit, and the enhanced Amiga was sent on
> to amuse the people at the party. It came back later with the board
> removed, and a cigarette burn where it had been. Never again. The PC was
> a quality built machine, that crowd that had cows as an advertisement.
>
> My daughter told me recently that _her_ daughter had asked her to be
> absent for the girls Xmas party. Do things ever change?.
>
> Happy thanksgiving to all USAians.
Let's stop Asian hate. Equally bad as hate speech is hate sight. There
are too many hateful white people in this country. These racist,
blue-eyed devils need to be reigned in from their hateful glaring at
minorities.
We need stronger hate speech laws. If a white devil even looks at a
Asian suspiciously, that is hate speech disguised as hate sight! The
white devils should go to prison for their hateful glaring. We should
impose mandatory minimum sentences for blue-eyed devil staring and
glaring. Blue-eyed juvenile devils should be tried as adults for their
hateful secret evil thoughts when they glare at minorities.
Just the way white people look at minorities is a crime worthy of death.
But we are not bloodthirsty like the white devils. We just want justice,
so life imprisonment for hate sight will be a necessary, but merciful
punishment. The sooner we rid ourselves of the white menace the sooner
we can have justice.
USAsians will have happy thanksgivings when they can be thankful that
all the blue-eyed devils are eliminated from society once and for all.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Christmas 1989 [message #417874 is a reply to message #417735] |
Tue, 22 November 2022 12:26 |
D.J.
Messages: 821
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Tue, 22 Nov 2022 01:55:21 -0500, Andreas Kohlbach
<ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Nov 2022 10:24:18 -0600, D.J. wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 16 Nov 2022 18:53:25 -0500, Andreas Kohlbach
>>>
>>> Amazing the Amiga didn't really kick off in the US. From 1985 to may be
>>> 1988 (which was a "generation" or two back then) it blew everything out
>>> of the water, especially at that price. Like the IBM PC and its clones. And
>>> the Macintosh only just got color and couldn't even do preemptive
>>> multitasking.
>>>
>>> Amazing the Amiga didn't really caught on in the US.
>>
>> I had an Amiga then. Most people wanted to know why it didn't run
>> ms-dos programs. One person tried to tell me if it didn't run ms-dos,
>> it was illegal.
>
> Holy sh*t!
I laughed at them. And said a few words to them. And then smiled. They
became gruntled and walked away.
>> Many claimed, as they saw me using an Amiga computer, that such
>> machines didn't exist. All in the US.
>
> They might even have thought you came from outer space. *g*
I was asked by a science fiction convention, that since I talked about
the Amiga so much, would I like to show it off ?
So I put together a floppy of demo programs, the bouncing ball, a
juggler, etc.
Two people went over to look at the New Macintosh computer ! They ran
away, when they realized it was an Amiga computer. They looked like
they didn't want to be contaminated. They complained to someone who
assured them their mistake was not anyone's problem but their own.
--
Jim
|
|
|
|
| Re: Christmas 1989 [message #417875 is a reply to message #417872] |
Tue, 22 November 2022 13:55 |
|
|
Originally posted by: greymaus
On 2022-11-22, Ching Chang Chong <ching@chang.chong> wrote:
> On 11/21/22 14:27, greymaus wrote:
>> On 2022-11-21, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 2022-11-21, D.J <chucktheouch@gmnol.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I had an Amiga then. Most people wanted to know why it didn't run
>>>> ms-dos programs.
>>>
>>> Because you didn't put a bridge board in it. :-)
>>> I did a lot of MS-DOS development work on my Amiga,
>>> first with a 286 bridge board, later a 386SX bridge board.
>>>
>>>> One person tried to tell me if it didn't run ms-dos,
>>>> it was illegal.
>>>
>>> Well, "PC" also stands for Politically Correct...
>>>
>>>> Many claimed, as they saw me using an Amiga computer,
>>>> that such machines didn't exist. All in the US.
>>>
>>> That reminds me of the 1984 lightbulb joke:
>>>
>>> Q: How many thought police does it take to change a light bulb?
>>> A: There never was a light bulb.
>>>
>>> See my .sig.
>>>
>>
> We need stronger hate speech laws. If a white devil even looks at a
> Asian suspiciously, that is hate speech disguised as hate sight! The
> white devils should go to prison for their hateful glaring. We should
> impose mandatory minimum sentences for blue-eyed devil staring and
> glaring. Blue-eyed juvenile devils should be tried as adults for their
> hateful secret evil thoughts when they glare at minorities.
>
> Just the way white people look at minorities is a crime worthy of death.
> But we are not bloodthirsty like the white devils. We just want justice,
> so life imprisonment for hate sight will be a necessary, but merciful
> punishment. The sooner we rid ourselves of the white menace the sooner
> we can have justice.
>
> USAsians will have happy thanksgivings when they can be thankful that
> all the blue-eyed devils are eliminated from society once and for all.
>
>
:)
--
greymausg@mail.com
Fe, Fi, Fo, Fum, I smell the stench of an Influencer.
Where is our money gone, Dude?
|
|
|
|
| Re: Christmas 1989 [message #417876 is a reply to message #417868] |
Tue, 22 November 2022 14:32 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On 2022-11-22, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Nov 2022 19:18:28 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> On 2022-11-21, D.J <chucktheouch@gmnol.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I had an Amiga then. Most people wanted to know why it didn't run
>>> ms-dos programs.
>>
>> Because you didn't put a bridge board in it. :-)
>> I did a lot of MS-DOS development work on my Amiga,
>> first with a 286 bridge board, later a 386SX bridge board.
>
> I remember on the Amiga's introduction at Lincoln Center in NYC in 1985
> they showed an MS-DOS emulator booted from floppy IIRC towards the end of
> the show. Almost like it would had been Steve Jobs almost leaving the
> stage and saying: "Oh, one more thing".
Ah yes, the Transformer. I bought it - it came with a free 5 1/4"
floppy drive :-) - and played with it a bit. Since it did a software
emulation of 8088 instructions, it ran at 1/8 to 1/10 the speed of
a 4.77-MHz 8088 on the Amiga's 7.16-MHz 68000. But it did work.
Once for giggles I ran Z80MU (an emulation of a Z-80 CP/M system
for MS-DOS) under the Transformer. I fired up BASIC-80 and typed
PRINT SIN(<something or other>)
It took 7 seconds to come back [1] - but the answer was right.
An interpreter running under two levels of software emulation
is a great way to thrash a CPU.
[1] About the same time as it took a Wang 300 series calculator
to perform a trig function, with its Nixie tubes rolling the
full time.
https://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/wang360.html
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Christmas 1989 [message #417879 is a reply to message #417789] |
Tue, 22 November 2022 17:21 |
Jorgen Grahn
Messages: 606
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Thu, 2022-11-17, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Nov 2022 04:05:23 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>> On 2022-11-16, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Amazing the Amiga didn't really kick off in the US. From 1985 to may be
>>> 1988 (which was a "generation" or two back then) it blew everything out
>>> of the water, especially at that price. Like the IBM PC and its clones. And
>>> the Macintosh only just got color and couldn't even do preemptive
>>> multitasking.
>>>
>>> Amazing the Amiga didn't really caught on in the US.
>>
>> Part of that was poor marketing. The president and chairman of the
>> board, Mehdi Ali and Irving Gould, were pulling down bigger salaries
>> than their counterparts at IBM, while running the company into the
>> ground. Stockholder meetings were held in the Bahamas to minimize
>> the number of pesky shareholders asking embarrassing questions.
>
> I know (Mr. Gould messed up). But why was the Amiga so highly successful
> in Europe, but not in the US?
It wasn't that succesful in Europe -- it was an underground thing.
Kids knew other kids who had an Amiga or an Atari, but to adults and
to the public, a "computer" was a PC[1]. Workplaces had PCs,
mainstream computer stores only sold PC stuff, and mainstream media
only covered PCs.
That's in Sweden. The situation might have been a bit better in
e.g. Germany, but I bet it was basically the same.
/Jorgen
[1] A Macintosh was a computer too, but for arty people with too much
money.
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
|
|
|
|
| Re: Christmas 1989 [message #417884 is a reply to message #417879] |
Wed, 23 November 2022 01:24 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On 22 Nov 2022 22:21:35 GMT
Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
> It wasn't that succesful in Europe -- it was an underground thing.
> Kids knew other kids who had an Amiga or an Atari, but to adults and
> to the public, a "computer" was a PC[1]. Workplaces had PCs,
> mainstream computer stores only sold PC stuff, and mainstream media
> only covered PCs.
All of this is true, the Amiga was seen as the most desirable geek
kid toy but *real* computers were PCs and Macs or Unix boxes looking like
beer fridges with a QIC slot for a handle for the few who saw such things.
Well I suspect that in many minds a *real* computer involved a large bank of
tape drives with vacuum columns twitching madly, but PCs and Macs were what
they saw.
That being said, a little later in 1995 I was running an ISP booth
at a trade show, so to ram the point home that the internet was for
everybody I had a BSD box running as the router (modem dialled in all day),
with a Windows PC, a Mac and an Amiga hooked up to the ethernet. Over the
way there was an outfit making a big deal out of connecting PCs and Unix
systems - we tried not to laugh too much.
About half way through the first day the guy with the Amiga decided
to pep the demo up a bit and added a virtual Windows PC and a virtual Mac
running on his Amiga to the network. They were *good* geek kid toys!
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
|
|
|
|
| Re: Christmas 1989 [message #417885 is a reply to message #417735] |
Wed, 23 November 2022 01:53 |
|
|
Originally posted by: Thomas Koenig
Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> schrieb:
> On 22 Nov 2022 22:21:35 GMT, Jorgen Grahn wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 2022-11-17, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>>
>>> I know (Mr. Gould messed up). But why was the Amiga so highly successful
>>> in Europe, but not in the US?
>>
>> It wasn't that succesful in Europe -- it was an underground thing.
>> Kids knew other kids who had an Amiga or an Atari, but to adults and
>> to the public, a "computer" was a PC[1]. Workplaces had PCs,
>> mainstream computer stores only sold PC stuff, and mainstream media
>> only covered PCs.
>>
>> That's in Sweden. The situation might have been a bit better in
>> e.g. Germany, but I bet it was basically the same.
>
> Yes, referring to Germany. Most of my friends who owned a C64 before
> then got an Amiga, if they could afford.
There was also a sizable Atari ST fraction, which led to one
of the holy wars of the 1980s. In the end, neither won, the PC
smothered all, with the Macs holding on.
>> [1] A Macintosh was a computer too, but for arty people with too much
>> money.
>
> :-)
The screens of the first Macs were tiny. Plus, the lack of
preemptive multitasking (which was defended by Mac zealots as a
feature, until Apple switched) was a pain.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Christmas 1989 [message #417887 is a reply to message #417885] |
Wed, 23 November 2022 11:59 |
D.J.
Messages: 821
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Wed, 23 Nov 2022 06:53:48 -0000 (UTC), Thomas Koenig
<tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
> Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> schrieb:
>> On 22 Nov 2022 22:21:35 GMT, Jorgen Grahn wrote:
>>>
>>> On Thu, 2022-11-17, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I know (Mr. Gould messed up). But why was the Amiga so highly successful
>>>> in Europe, but not in the US?
>>>
>>> It wasn't that succesful in Europe -- it was an underground thing.
>>> Kids knew other kids who had an Amiga or an Atari, but to adults and
>>> to the public, a "computer" was a PC[1]. Workplaces had PCs,
>>> mainstream computer stores only sold PC stuff, and mainstream media
>>> only covered PCs.
>>>
>>> That's in Sweden. The situation might have been a bit better in
>>> e.g. Germany, but I bet it was basically the same.
>>
>> Yes, referring to Germany. Most of my friends who owned a C64 before
>> then got an Amiga, if they could afford.
>
> There was also a sizable Atari ST fraction, which led to one
> of the holy wars of the 1980s. In the end, neither won, the PC
> smothered all, with the Macs holding on.
>
>>> [1] A Macintosh was a computer too, but for arty people with too much
>>> money.
>>
>> :-)
>
> The screens of the first Macs were tiny. Plus, the lack of
> preemptive multitasking (which was defended by Mac zealots as a
> feature, until Apple switched) was a pain.
I remember a science fiction author telling the Mac people, nobody
over 40 worked on this did they ? They asked how he knew, and he said
the words on the screen were too small. Arthur C. Clarke.
--
Jim
|
|
|
|
| Re: Christmas 1989 [message #417888 is a reply to message #417735] |
Wed, 23 November 2022 12:03 |
D.J.
Messages: 821
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Wed, 23 Nov 2022 01:44:22 -0500, Andreas Kohlbach
<ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Nov 2022 19:32:28 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>> On 2022-11-22, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> I remember on the Amiga's introduction at Lincoln Center in NYC in 1985
>>> they showed an MS-DOS emulator booted from floppy IIRC towards the end of
>>> the show. Almost like it would had been Steve Jobs almost leaving the
>>> stage and saying: "Oh, one more thing".
>>
>> Ah yes, the Transformer. I bought it - it came with a free 5 1/4"
>> floppy drive :-) - and played with it a bit. Since it did a software
>> emulation of 8088 instructions, it ran at 1/8 to 1/10 the speed of
>> a 4.77-MHz 8088 on the Amiga's 7.16-MHz 68000. But it did work.
>
> I probably found a copy and ran that emulator inside an Amiga emulator
> (UAE for Linux), but get a Guru Mediation. No prob. Would just has been
> nice though if it worked out of the box.
I used a pd program to set my external drive to ms-dos 720kb. And used
the Internal floppy drive for my Amiga Workbench.
The ms-dos drive came in handy when I used ftpmail to get Parts of an
Amiga program I got from the early ftp sites.
--
Jim
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Christmas 1989 [message #417900 is a reply to message #417735] |
Thu, 24 November 2022 12:05 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On 2022-11-24, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Nov 2022 06:53:48 -0000 (UTC), Thomas Koenig wrote:
>
>> Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> schrieb:
>>
>>>> [1] A Macintosh was a computer too, but for arty people with too much
>>>> money.
>>>
>>> :-)
>>
>> The screens of the first Macs were tiny. Plus, the lack of
>> preemptive multitasking (which was defended by Mac zealots as a
>> feature, until Apple switched) was a pain.
>
> But something (GUI) MS-DOS users had to wait until about Windows 3.11
> in 1992 (versions before were an insult or joke). So Mac or, Atari ST or
> Amiga it was in the mid 80s.
And even Windows 3 didn't use pre-emptive multitasking. If your program
didn't voluntarily relinquish the CPU, the entire machine ground to a halt.
Not until Windows 95 did Microsoft support pre-emptive multitasking, while
the Amiga had it in its first release in 1985.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Christmas 1989 [message #417901 is a reply to message #417900] |
Thu, 24 November 2022 12:13 |
|
|
Originally posted by: gareth evans
On 24/11/2022 17:05, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
> And even Windows 3 didn't use pre-emptive multitasking. If your program
> didn't voluntarily relinquish the CPU, the entire machine ground to a halt.
> Not until Windows 95 did Microsoft support pre-emptive multitasking, while
> the Amiga had it in its first release in 1985.
>
In Windows 3.11, "Windows for Playgroups :-) " using Visual Basic, you
used the "DoEvents" facility to let other processing get a look in.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Christmas 1989 [message #417903 is a reply to message #417900] |
Thu, 24 November 2022 13:27 |
|
|
Originally posted by: Carlos E.R.
On 2022-11-24 18:05, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2022-11-24, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 23 Nov 2022 06:53:48 -0000 (UTC), Thomas Koenig wrote:
>>
>>> Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> schrieb:
>>>
>>>> > [1] A Macintosh was a computer too, but for arty people with too much
>>>> > money.
>>>>
>>>> :-)
>>>
>>> The screens of the first Macs were tiny. Plus, the lack of
>>> preemptive multitasking (which was defended by Mac zealots as a
>>> feature, until Apple switched) was a pain.
>>
>> But something (GUI) MS-DOS users had to wait until about Windows 3.11
>> in 1992 (versions before were an insult or joke). So Mac or, Atari ST or
>> Amiga it was in the mid 80s.
>
> And even Windows 3 didn't use pre-emptive multitasking. If your program
> didn't voluntarily relinquish the CPU, the entire machine ground to a halt.
> Not until Windows 95 did Microsoft support pre-emptive multitasking, while
> the Amiga had it in its first release in 1985.
MsDOS boxes in Windows got pre-emptive multitasking.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Christmas 1989 [message #417907 is a reply to message #417903] |
Thu, 24 November 2022 15:45 |
Niklas Karlsson
Messages: 265
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On 2022-11-24, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> On 2022-11-24 18:05, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>> And even Windows 3 didn't use pre-emptive multitasking. If your program
>> didn't voluntarily relinquish the CPU, the entire machine ground to a halt.
>> Not until Windows 95 did Microsoft support pre-emptive multitasking, while
>> the Amiga had it in its first release in 1985.
>
> MsDOS boxes in Windows got pre-emptive multitasking.
Even in Windows 3? Really?
Niklas
--
When you need a helpline for breakfast cereals, it's time to start
thinking about tearing down civilisation and giving the ants a go.
-- Chris King in asr
|
|
|
|
| Re: Christmas 1989 [message #417908 is a reply to message #417907] |
Thu, 24 November 2022 16:47 |
|
|
Originally posted by: Carlos E.R.
On 2022-11-24 21:45, Niklas Karlsson wrote:
> On 2022-11-24, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2022-11-24 18:05, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>
>>> And even Windows 3 didn't use pre-emptive multitasking. If your program
>>> didn't voluntarily relinquish the CPU, the entire machine ground to a halt.
>>> Not until Windows 95 did Microsoft support pre-emptive multitasking, while
>>> the Amiga had it in its first release in 1985.
>>
>> MsDOS boxes in Windows got pre-emptive multitasking.
>
> Even in Windows 3? Really?
That was a century ago, so I can't remember 100% sure, but I think that
yes. Win 95, certainly.
Consider that an MsDOS program running on Win 3 could not voluntarily
yield the processor as a native Win program could.
There was another consideration as in all MsDOS boxes sharing the
same... what was the word... slot? space?, or each program having its own.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Christmas 1989 [message #417910 is a reply to message #417901] |
Thu, 24 November 2022 18:04 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 24/11/2022 17:05, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>> And even Windows 3 didn't use pre-emptive multitasking. If your program
>> didn't voluntarily relinquish the CPU, the entire machine ground to a halt.
>> Not until Windows 95 did Microsoft support pre-emptive multitasking, while
>> the Amiga had it in its first release in 1985.
>>
>
> In Windows 3.11, "Windows for Playgroups :-) " using Visual Basic, you
> used the "DoEvents" facility to let other processing get a look in.
>
Still cooperative multitasking though? A buggy or poorly coded program can
still lock others out, if so. CICS used to work the same way, but most CICS
programmers were not amateurs, unlike people writing windows code.
--
Pete
|
|
|
|
| Re: Christmas 1989 [message #417913 is a reply to message #417908] |
Fri, 25 November 2022 07:09 |
Niklas Karlsson
Messages: 265
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On 2022-11-24, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> On 2022-11-24 21:45, Niklas Karlsson wrote:
>> On 2022-11-24, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 2022-11-24 18:05, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>>
>>>> And even Windows 3 didn't use pre-emptive multitasking. If your program
>>>> didn't voluntarily relinquish the CPU, the entire machine ground to a halt.
>>>> Not until Windows 95 did Microsoft support pre-emptive multitasking, while
>>>> the Amiga had it in its first release in 1985.
>>>
>>> MsDOS boxes in Windows got pre-emptive multitasking.
>>
>> Even in Windows 3? Really?
> That was a century ago, so I can't remember 100% sure, but I think that
> yes. Win 95, certainly.
95 I'll buy, that had pre-emptive multitasking across the board (but not
very good memory protection). 3.x would be surprising, but I suppose
it's possible. It'd be interesting if someone could dig up a reference
on that.
> Consider that an MsDOS program running on Win 3 could not voluntarily
> yield the processor as a native Win program could.
That's true. I suppose I'd just assumed it'd yield the processor when it made a
blocking system call, if such a thing existed in the MS-DOS world.
Niklas
--
Not to be daunted, we pulled out the heavy artillery, and one .45 caliber bullet
caused the swap drive to suddenly cease swapping, one more caused a large
flaring assembly of sparks as it hit the AC<->DC power supply and said system
ceased functioning in about a quarter of a second. -- Derek Balling, asr
|
|
|
|
| Re: Christmas 1989 [message #417914 is a reply to message #417825] |
Fri, 25 November 2022 11:50 |
|
|
Originally posted by: David Lesher
"Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> writes:
> They also tried with Token Ring to get into the PC networking market;
> another fail. (more proprietry h/w and worse of all, slower).
I worked for a USG agency, and it was all Broken err Token Ring.
Insanely expensive wire plant vs. CAT5.
But then they needed an optical link to cross a DC street to an overflow
building. That was Ethernet, so:
TR<->Ethernet->Optical[street]Optical->Ethernet<->TR
--
A host is a host from coast to coast...............wb8foz@panix.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close..........................
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
|
|
|
|
| Re: Christmas 1989 [message #417917 is a reply to message #417825] |
Fri, 25 November 2022 18:57 |
Andy Leighton
Messages: 203
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Fri, 18 Nov 2022 18:47:01 +0000, Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Nov 2022 18:01:51 GMT
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 2022-11-18, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>
>>> However IBM published every detail of the PC (and AT) and the
>>> market for a cheap IBM workalike was so obvious that it exploded almost
>>> instantly and became brutally competitive.
>>
>> IBM realized their error and tried to reverse it with MicroChannel,
>> but it was too late; as with Pandora, the box had been opened and
>> couldn't be closed again.
>>
>>> Notice that IBM no longer play in the market they created,
>>> they've retreated to their comfort zone of high support mainframes.
>>
>> They don't like to play in areas they can't control, and they
>> realized they had lost control of the PC.
>>
> They also tried with Token Ring to get into the PC networking market;
> another fail. (more proprietry h/w and worse of all, slower).
Yeah I worked at a place that was Token Ring for a while*. IIRC it was
running at 16 Mbps. At the time Ethernet was only 10 Mbps (and at my
previous job we were only 10Base2 as well). Also with a lot of early
Ethernet networks I think there were more collisions. However Ethernet
won out with the move to twisted pair and then the jump to Fast Ethernet
which sealed the slow death of Token Ring.
* We changed over to Ethernet sometime later whilst I worked there (when we
moved to a new site) which was somewhat exciting as for a while we had both
networks running as we couldn't physically swap out that many network
cards and reinstall drivers in a weekend.
--
Andy Leighton => andyl@azaal.plus.com
"We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
- Douglas Adams
|
|
|
|
| Re: Christmas 1989 [message #417918 is a reply to message #417735] |
Fri, 25 November 2022 19:30 |
|
|
Originally posted by: ant
486. I loved CC!
Jason Evans <jsevans@mailfence.com> wrote:
> I was watching this episode of The Computer Chronicles
> (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJ95IclntIY) which is the 1989 Holiday
> Buyer's Guide.
> Let's say you wake up on Christmas Day in 1989 and you can have any
> computer that you want that it available at that time. What do you choose?
> A shiny new 486? The latest Mac? A new Amiga? ...or maybe something more
> exotic?
--
"Whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him." ???Colossians 3:17. Slammy Thurs. & TGIBF?
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org.
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
\ _ /
( )
|
|
|
|
| Re: Christmas 1989 [message #417919 is a reply to message #417917] |
Fri, 25 November 2022 21:21 |
Anne & Lynn Wheel
Messages: 3156
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> writes:
> Yeah I worked at a place that was Token Ring for a while*. IIRC it was
> running at 16 Mbps. At the time Ethernet was only 10 Mbps (and at my
> previous job we were only 10Base2 as well). Also with a lot of early
> Ethernet networks I think there were more collisions. However Ethernet
> won out with the move to twisted pair and then the jump to Fast Ethernet
> which sealed the slow death of Token Ring.
>
> * We changed over to Ethernet sometime later whilst I worked there (when we
> moved to a new site) which was somewhat exciting as for a while we had both
> networks running as we couldn't physically swap out that many network
> cards and reinstall drivers in a weekend.
IBM AWD had built their own 4mbit token-ring card for the PC/RT
workstation (had a pc/at bus). For the RS/6000 workstation that had
microchannel, they were ordered to only use the heavily performance
kneecapped PS2 microchannel cards. It turned out that the PS2
microchannel 16mbit token-ring card had lower card throughput than PC/RT
4mbit token-ring card.
New IBM Almaden research center had been heavily provisioned with cat5
wiring, in theory for 16mbit token-ring ... but they found the 10mbit
ethernet cards had higher per card throughput than 16mbit microchannel
cards, also 10mbit ethernet LANs had higher aggregate LAN throughput and
lower LAN network latency than 16mbit token-ring LANs. At the same time
the high performance 10mbit ethernet cat5 cards were $69, while the
heavily performance kneecapped microchannel 16mbit token-ring cards were
$800 (i.e. heavily performance kneecapped microchannel cards was just a
little part of communication group fiercely fighting off client/server
and distributed computing).
About this time the IBM Dallas E&S center published paper showing 16mbit
token-ring having significantly higher throughput than ethernet ... I
could only think that they were comparing with the early experimental
3mbit ethernet cards before listen-before-transmit standard.
Summer 1988, ACM SIGCOMM had paper where they did an ethernet study with
30 stations all running low-level device driver loops, constantly
transmitting minimum sized packets ... finding effective aggregate
10mmbit ethernet LAN throughput dropping off to 8mbit/secs.
My wife had been con'ed into co-authoring response to gov. agency
request for super-secure, large campus, network environment ... where
she included 3-tier network architecture. We were then out making
customer executive presentation on large, fast, secure, 3tier networks
with TCP/IP, high-performance routers, and ethernet ... and constantly
taking all sorts of barbs and arrows (with enormous amount of
misinformation) from the communication group, SNA, and SAA people.
trivia: communication group also fiercely fighting off release of
mainframe tcp/ip support ... when they lost that battle, they changed
and since they had corporate strategic ownership of everything that
crossed datacenter walls, it had to be shipped through them; what
shipped got aggregate 44kbytes/sec using nearly whole 3090 processor. I
then did the enhancements for RFC1044 and in some tuning tests at Cray
Research between Cray and 4341, got sustained 4341 channel throughput
using only modest amount of the 4341 processor (something like 500 times
improvement in bytes moved per instruction executed).
finally: late 80s, senior disk engineer got talk scheduled at annual,
internal, world-wide communication group conference, supposedly on 3174
performance ... put opened the talk with statement that the
communication group was going to be responsible for the demise of the
disk division ... they were seeing drop in disk sales with data fleeing
mainframes to more disributed computing friendly platforms. They had
come up with a number of (IBM) solutions, but were all being vetoed by
the communication group (with their corporate strategic ownership for
everything that crossed datacenter walls) ... note that the
communication group stranglehold on mainframe datacenters wasn't just
networking and DASD ... but extended to whole mainframe business ... and
it was just a couple years before IBM has one of the largest losses in
US company history and was being reorganized into the 13 "baby blues" in
preparation for breaking up the company (board eventually brings in new
CEO that reverses the breakup ... but wasn't enough to prevent the
demise of disk division).
topic drift; recent long winded tome on the bureaucrats and careerist
destroying the Watson legacy at IBM
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/john-boyd-ibm-wild-ducks-lynn -wheeler/
--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
|
|
|
|
| Re: Christmas 1989 [message #417925 is a reply to message #417917] |
Sat, 26 November 2022 12:10 |
Joe Pfeiffer
Messages: 764
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> writes:
>
> Yeah I worked at a place that was Token Ring for a while*. IIRC it was
> running at 16 Mbps. At the time Ethernet was only 10 Mbps (and at my
> previous job we were only 10Base2 as well). Also with a lot of early
> Ethernet networks I think there were more collisions. However Ethernet
> won out with the move to twisted pair and then the jump to Fast Ethernet
> which sealed the slow death of Token Ring.
>
> * We changed over to Ethernet sometime later whilst I worked there (when we
> moved to a new site) which was somewhat exciting as for a while we had both
> networks running as we couldn't physically swap out that many network
> cards and reinstall drivers in a weekend.
I was a student at UW when the question of networking first came up...
If I recall correctly, the choice of ethernet over token ring came down
to not needing that last segment connecting the last node back to the
first, and the myth that ethernet would be more reliable because if a
node went down with token ring it would take the ring down (it was
quickly learned that many ethernet failure nodes either put noise on the
line or shorted it which was equally successful at bringing down the
net, and the vampire taps introduced their own failures).
|
|
|
|
| Re: Christmas 1989 [message #417943 is a reply to message #417862] |
Sun, 27 November 2022 22:28 |
Quadibloc
Messages: 4399
Registered: June 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Monday, November 21, 2022 at 10:43:08 AM UTC-7, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> That was another thing; really clunky connectors (even if it was
> hermaphroditic):
I thought the term was androgynous.
John Savard
|
|
|
|
| Re: Christmas 1989 [message #417945 is a reply to message #417943] |
Mon, 28 November 2022 00:48 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On 2022-11-28, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> On Monday, November 21, 2022 at 10:43:08 AM UTC-7, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>
>> That was another thing; really clunky connectors (even if it was
>> hermaphroditic):
>
> I thought the term was androgynous.
I always heard the term "hermaphroditic" used in the context
of Token Ring connectors. Looking up both words, I see that
"androgynous" is sometimes considered synonymous with "hermaphroditic",
although the latter term tends to be more specific to genitals.
(What would be the computer equivalent of genitals?)
A lot of people say, "What's that?" It's Pat!
A lot of people ask, "Who's he? Or she?"
Madam or sir, accept him or her
For whatever it might be.
It's time for androgyny.
Here comes Pat!
-- Saturday Night Live
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Christmas 1989 [message #417948 is a reply to message #417945] |
Mon, 28 November 2022 07:36 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2022-11-28, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> On Monday, November 21, 2022 at 10:43:08 AM UTC-7, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>>
>>> That was another thing; really clunky connectors (even if it was
>>> hermaphroditic):
>>
>> I thought the term was androgynous.
>
> I always heard the term "hermaphroditic" used in the context
> of Token Ring connectors. Looking up both words, I see that
> "androgynous" is sometimes considered synonymous with "hermaphroditic",
> although the latter term tends to be more specific to genitals.
> (What would be the computer equivalent of genitals?)
Obviously the connectors. They come in male and female versions, unless
they’re .. whatever.
>
> A lot of people say, "What's that?" It's Pat!
> A lot of people ask, "Who's he? Or she?"
> Madam or sir, accept him or her
> For whatever it might be.
> It's time for androgyny.
> Here comes Pat!
> -- Saturday Night Live
>
--
Pete
|
|
|
|
| Re: Christmas 1989 [message #417960 is a reply to message #417735] |
Mon, 28 November 2022 21:50 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On 2022-11-28, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Nov 2022 05:36:58 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
>
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> I always heard the term "hermaphroditic" used in the context
>>> of Token Ring connectors. Looking up both words, I see that
>>> "androgynous" is sometimes considered synonymous with "hermaphroditic",
>>> although the latter term tends to be more specific to genitals.
>>> (What would be the computer equivalent of genitals?)
>>
>> Obviously the connectors. They come in male and female versions, unless
>> they’re .. whatever.
>
> Non-Binary entities? ;-)
You mean analog computers?
Or maybe biquinary if you're feeling kinky.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.
|
|
|
|
Members
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
