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Re: Chip shortage--use relays [message #409997 is a reply to message #409987] Fri, 16 July 2021 14:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
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On Friday, July 16, 2021 at 1:56:09 PM UTC-4, Peter Flass wrote:

> Of course, back then it probably had vent windows in the front. Worst thing
> that happened to cars was when they were eliminated.

+1
Re: Chip shortage--use relays [message #409998 is a reply to message #409984] Fri, 16 July 2021 14:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
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On Friday, July 16, 2021 at 12:33:35 PM UTC-4, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> One thing I really miss is vents that directed ram air into the cabin.
> If you're not stuck in a traffic jam, that took care of most of the
> cases where today you have no alternative but to use air conditioning.
> Some cars with that little extra pane at the front of the side window
> (I don't know the offical name, we called them "no-drafts") let you
> pivot it far enough that it directed air in as well. More natural,
> less thermal shock.

Unfortunately, it seems to much of driving today is in traffic or
stopped at long traffic lights. While I miss those vents, I ain't
giving up my car's a/c. I do not miss my youth sitting in
heavy traffic without a/c.

(Also, on my car, the HVAC can be set on vent mode, either fan
or natural, which will bring in some outside air. On mild days it
is adequate.
Re: Chip shortage--use relays [message #409999 is a reply to message #409987] Fri, 16 July 2021 15:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
usenet is currently offline  usenet
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On Fri, 16 Jul 2021 10:56:08 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>> On 16 Jul 2021 02:53:23 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote:
>>>
>>> He said that she'd call him and say, "I want to go to Florida
>>> tomorrow" and he'd drive her straight through to Florida from New
>>> England with no overnights. That's a hard slog on the interstates now,
>>> never mind on the roads of the '20s or '30s.
>>
>> Also if you just compare the 1980s to today.
>>
>> As mentioned I was going to Spain in the 1980s with my ex girlfriend. Was
>> talking to the brother of my ex a few years ago what an adventure it was
>> (some 1200 miles) and he didn't quite understand, because he recently
>> (2015) also did a similar trip. But his car was a modern Toyota with air
>> condition, GPS and all that modern s**t you have today. Back in 1985 my
>> Beetle had no AC, let alone GPS. Not even power brakes or steering. It
>> was hot (of course, summer in Spain) and the only cooing came from
>> lowering the windows.
>
> Of course, back then it probably had vent windows in the front. Worst thing
> that happened to cars was when they were eliminated.

Those vent windows were notoriously easy to force open, which in turn made it
easy to snake something through them and open the door. There's a good reason
why cars no longer have them -- they facilitated auto break-ins and theft.
Re: Chip shortage--use relays [message #410000 is a reply to message #409984] Fri, 16 July 2021 16:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Spencer is currently offline  Mike Spencer
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Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:

> One thing I really miss is vents that directed ram air into the cabin.
> If you're not stuck in a traffic jam, that took care of most of the
> cases where today you have no alternative but to use air conditioning.
> Some cars with that little extra pane at the front of the side window
> (I don't know the offical name, we called them "no-drafts") let you
> pivot it far enough that it directed air in as well. More natural,
> less thermal shock.

When I was in the trade, we called them vent-wings. Alleged
problem: they offered a way to break into locked cars relatively
inconspiuously. Real problem: rust in the channel and latch may make
them uncloseable.

My F250 is old enough to have that and I love it.

I miss even more the drip channel over the doors that allowed you to
keep the driver's window open in light rain. Now rain or even fog
condensation drips directly into the cabin.


--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
Re: Chip shortage--use relays [message #410004 is a reply to message #409988] Fri, 16 July 2021 17:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Fri, 16 Jul 2021 11:09:39 -0700 (PDT), undefined Hancock-4
<hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:

> On Wednesday, July 14, 2021 at 2:40:45 PM UTC-4, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>> Forget fuel economy and emissions requirements - they're trivial
>> compared to the real driver for chips - infotainment systems to
>> keep you distracted, backup cameras and lane drift detection and
>> automatic braking to save your ass now that you're distracted...
>
> Western Electric offers a line of CRTs to provide displays.
> https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Site-Technical/Enginee ring-General/Archive-Electronics-IDX/IDX/30s/Electronics-193 9-03-OCR-Page-0055.pdf#search=%22western%20electric%20cathod e%20ray%22

They only offer that line to people who have access to time machines.
Re: Chip shortage--use relays [message #410007 is a reply to message #409998] Fri, 16 July 2021 18:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
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On 2021-07-16, undefined Hancock-4 <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:

> On Friday, July 16, 2021 at 12:33:35 PM UTC-4, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> One thing I really miss is vents that directed ram air into the cabin.
>> If you're not stuck in a traffic jam, that took care of most of the
>> cases where today you have no alternative but to use air conditioning.
>> Some cars with that little extra pane at the front of the side window
>> (I don't know the offical name, we called them "no-drafts") let you
>> pivot it far enough that it directed air in as well. More natural,
>> less thermal shock.
>
> Unfortunately, it seems to much of driving today is in traffic or
> stopped at long traffic lights. While I miss those vents, I ain't
> giving up my car's a/c. I do not miss my youth sitting in
> heavy traffic without a/c.

Not that I'm advocating getting rid of A/C, but it'd sure be nice
to have the option of naturally-fed air.

> (Also, on my car, the HVAC can be set on vent mode, either fan
> or natural, which will bring in some outside air. On mild days
> it is adequate.

I've yet to see a car that didn't require the fan to get a decent
amount of air into the cabin. Remember those old cars that had
a vent that popped up in front of the middle of the windshield?
Lots of air there. My '70s GMC Suburbans had a handle down by
my knee that I could pull to open a door that directed copious
volumes of air in.

Pet peeve: fans that can't be shut off, only slowed down.
Remember convection heating? The last thing I want is a
mandatory case of wind chill.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | They don't understand Microsoft
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | has stolen their car and parked
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | a taxi in their driveway.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Mayayana
Re: Chip shortage--use relays [message #410008 is a reply to message #410000] Fri, 16 July 2021 18:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
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On 2021-07-16, Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>
>> One thing I really miss is vents that directed ram air into the cabin.
>> If you're not stuck in a traffic jam, that took care of most of the
>> cases where today you have no alternative but to use air conditioning.
>> Some cars with that little extra pane at the front of the side window
>> (I don't know the offical name, we called them "no-drafts") let you
>> pivot it far enough that it directed air in as well. More natural,
>> less thermal shock.
>
> When I was in the trade, we called them vent-wings. Alleged
> problem: they offered a way to break into locked cars relatively
> inconspiuously. Real problem: rust in the channel and latch may make
> them uncloseable.
>
> My F250 is old enough to have that and I love it.
>
> I miss even more the drip channel over the doors that allowed you to
> keep the driver's window open in light rain. Now rain or even fog
> condensation drips directly into the cabin.

One of the few things I didn't like about our 1989 CR-V was that
the sides were angled somewhat inwards - enough that one day when
we encountered a sudden rainstorm and we had left the windows open,
a lot of water had gotten in by the time we got back.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | They don't understand Microsoft
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | has stolen their car and parked
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | a taxi in their driveway.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Mayayana
Re: Chip shortage--use relays [message #410009 is a reply to message #409985] Fri, 16 July 2021 19:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
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Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> writes:

> On Fri, 16 Jul 2021 16:32:49 +0000, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> Some cars with that little extra pane at the front of the side window (I
>> don't know the offical name, we called them "no-drafts")
>
> We called them 'quarter lights'.

Fly window.

--
Dan Espen
Re: Chip shortage--use relays [message #410025 is a reply to message #409999] Sat, 17 July 2021 10:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quadibloc is currently offline  Quadibloc
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On Friday, July 16, 2021 at 1:51:39 PM UTC-6, Questor wrote:

> Those vent windows were notoriously easy to force open, which in turn made it
> easy to snake something through them and open the door. There's a good reason
> why cars no longer have them -- they facilitated auto break-ins and theft.

Surely the design could have been modified so that it would be impossible to force
them open without either breaking the glass or ripping off the metal of the door?

But in any case, that's not a good reason. Surely the appropriate solution to a
problem like that, which imposes the costs where they belong - on dishonest
automobile thieves, not honest car owners - would be to increase penalties for
car theft so that those penalties would work as a successful deterrent.

We haven't had any nuclear wars, so what I mean by a "successful deterrent" is
one that results in us not having any car thefts for a similar length of time.

Of course, perhaps one stupid person will have to steal a car, so that people can
actually see the penalty carried out for it to have the required emotional impact
to achieve the desired result.

Of course, there's that pesky Eighth Amendment...

John Savard
Re: Chip shortage--use relays [message #410026 is a reply to message #410004] Sat, 17 July 2021 10:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quadibloc is currently offline  Quadibloc
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On Friday, July 16, 2021 at 3:26:00 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Jul 2021 11:09:39 -0700 (PDT), undefined Hancock-4
> <hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:

>> Western Electric offers a line of CRTs to provide displays.
>> https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Site-Technical/Enginee ring-General/Archive-Electronics-IDX/IDX/30s/Electronics-193 9-03-OCR-Page-0055.pdf#search=%22western%20electric%20cathod e%20ray%22

> They only offer that line to people who have access to time machines.

In another newsgroup, this same poster offered advertisements in Electronics
magazine in 1945 and 1946 as evidence that Keufell and Esser were still selling
slide rules in 1995 and 1996.

Apparently he has some difficulty in navigating the World Radio History web
page.

John Savard
Re: Chip shortage--use relays [message #410027 is a reply to message #410026] Sat, 17 July 2021 10:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quadibloc is currently offline  Quadibloc
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On Saturday, July 17, 2021 at 8:09:18 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:

> In another newsgroup,

Oh, no, that was another thread in this newsgroup, and you had also
replied to that post of his.

John Savard
Re: Chip shortage--use relays [message #410029 is a reply to message #410025] Sat, 17 July 2021 10:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
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Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
> On Friday, July 16, 2021 at 1:51:39 PM UTC-6, Questor wrote:
>
>> Those vent windows were notoriously easy to force open, which in turn made it
>> easy to snake something through them and open the door. There's a good reason
>> why cars no longer have them -- they facilitated auto break-ins and theft.

The main reasons that they were no longer included on cars is twofold:

1 - With the introduction of air-conditioners to automobiles,
they were no longer necessary.

2 - With the push for higher fleet mileage, it was found that the
quarter lights were detrimental to airflow and the removal of
them helped improve gas mileage.
Re: Chip shortage--use relays [message #410030 is a reply to message #410000] Sat, 17 July 2021 10:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Kurt Weiske

To: Mike Spencer
-=> Mike Spencer wrote to alt.folklore.computers <=-


MS> When I was in the trade, we called them vent-wings. Alleged
MS> problem: they offered a way to break into locked cars relatively
MS> inconspiuously. Real problem: rust in the channel and latch may make
MS> them uncloseable.

I drove a 1977 VW Rabbit diesel for many years, and had to buy 3 or 4
replacements over the years. The pick-a-part places started running out of
them, so I wasn't the only one getting broken into.

At least they were easy to replace, with rear view mirror adhesive.

kurt weiske | kweiske at realitycheckbbs dot org
| http://realitycheckbbs.org
| 1:218/700@fidonet





.... Move towards the unimportant
--- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
--- Synchronet 3.19a-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
* realitycheckBBS - Aptos, CA - telnet://realitycheckbbs.org
Re: Chip shortage--use relays [message #410031 is a reply to message #410026] Sat, 17 July 2021 11:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Sat, 17 Jul 2021 07:09:17 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

> On Friday, July 16, 2021 at 3:26:00 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Fri, 16 Jul 2021 11:09:39 -0700 (PDT), undefined Hancock-4
>> <hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>
>>> Western Electric offers a line of CRTs to provide displays.
>>> https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Site-Technical/Enginee ring-General/Archive-Electronics-IDX/IDX/30s/Electronics-193 9-03-OCR-Page-0055.pdf#search=%22western%20electric%20cathod e%20ray%22
>
>> They only offer that line to people who have access to time machines.
>
> In another newsgroup, this same poster offered advertisements in Electronics
> magazine in 1945 and 1946 as evidence that Keufell and Esser were still selling
> slide rules in 1995 and 1996.
>
> Apparently he has some difficulty in navigating the World Radio History web
> page.

My experience of Hancock is that he just has some difficulty.
Re: Chip shortage--use relays [message #410032 is a reply to message #410029] Sat, 17 July 2021 12:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On Sat, 17 Jul 2021 14:42:46 GMT
scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:

> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>> On Friday, July 16, 2021 at 1:51:39 PM UTC-6, Questor wrote:
>>
>>> Those vent windows were notoriously easy to force open, which in turn
>>> made it easy to snake something through them and open the door.
>>> There's a good reason why cars no longer have them -- they facilitated
>>> auto break-ins and theft.
>
> The main reasons that they were no longer included on cars is twofold:
>
> 1 - With the introduction of air-conditioners to automobiles,
> they were no longer necessary.

They were removed on this side of the pond too where air
conditioners are not universal even now, and were rare and expensive when
the quarterlights went away.

> 2 - With the push for higher fleet mileage, it was found that the
> quarter lights were detrimental to airflow and the removal of
> them helped improve gas mileage.

This is likely the main reason - there was a huge push for
efficiency starting in the 1970s.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Chip shortage--use relays [message #410037 is a reply to message #410025] Sat, 17 July 2021 16:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
usenet is currently offline  usenet
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On Sat, 17 Jul 2021 07:06:17 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> On Friday, July 16, 2021 at 1:51:39 PM UTC-6, Questor wrote:
>> Those vent windows were notoriously easy to force open, which in turn made it
>> easy to snake something through them and open the door. There's a good reason
>> why cars no longer have them -- they facilitated auto break-ins and theft.
>
> Surely the design could have been modified so that it would be impossible to force
> them open without either breaking the glass or ripping off the metal of the door?

Perhaps. I'm not a mechanical engineer, so I don't know much about what would
be cheap and easy to do. (And if it's not cheap and easy, it's not going to be
done across many thousands of cars.) It seems to me that the nature of the
vent -- the vertical pivot, a short and simple mechanism -- lends itself to this
kind of exploit.


> But in any case, that's not a good reason. Surely the appropriate solution to a
> problem like that, which imposes the costs where they belong - on dishonest
> automobile thieves, not honest car owners - would be to increase penalties for
> car theft so that those penalties would work as a successful deterrent.

What a naive, idealistic -- and punitive point of view. You seem to be unaware
of just how quickly and easily a reasonably skilled thief can break into a car
through a vent window. The correct unit of time to use is seconds, not minutes.
Couple that with the obvious impossibility of patrolling or monitoring even a
majority of cars. Unless they get caught in the act, thieves breaking into cars
rarely get caught, so the risk/reward ratio for them is generally favorable.

We should be able to leave our doors unlocked too -- but we don't, because
simply locking a door is a more effective deterrent than raising the penalties
for burglary. If vent windows are a serious vulnerability, then eliminating
them will prevent more break-ins than harsher penalties. This goes along with
other common sense precautions, such as not leaving any valuables in your car.

Aside: Years ago I had a old, bulky Telefunken portable multi-band radio that I
kept in my car so I could listen to FM stations, as the car was not so equipped.
One night thieves broke into my car, ostensibly to steal it, but when they got
their hands on it they realized it wasn't worth taking. In the morning I found
my car had been broken into, but nothing was taken -- they left the radio on the
front seat.


> We haven't had any nuclear wars, so what I mean by a "successful deterrent" is
> one that results in us not having any car thefts for a similar length of time.
>
> Of course, perhaps one stupid person will have to steal a car, so that people can
> actually see the penalty carried out for it to have the required emotional impact
> to achieve the desired result.
>
> Of course, there's that pesky Eighth Amendment...

If increasing the penalties for crimes was truly effective, then we could simply
assign the death penalty to every infraction and presto, crime would virtually
stop overnight. At some point increased penalties have no appreciable effect.
Rather than incurring the time and expense of grinding through the judicial
system, reducing or eliminating the opportunity for a crime to occur is cheaper
and often easier. This has been the trend in car design, but there is always a
new wrinkle: a big problem these days is catalytic converter thefts.
Re: Chip shortage--use relays [message #410046 is a reply to message #410037] Sun, 18 July 2021 01:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On Sat, 17 Jul 2021 20:39:25 GMT
usenet@only.tnx (Questor) wrote:

> If increasing the penalties for crimes was truly effective, then we could
> simply assign the death penalty to every infraction and presto, crime
> would virtually stop overnight.

This used to be the case, at least for peasants. The result was to
encourage murder - if you can get hanged for stealing a loaf of bread
you'll kill anyone who catches you if you can, you might get away and if you
don't you're no worse off.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Chip shortage--use relays [message #410049 is a reply to message #410032] Sun, 18 July 2021 03:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: greymaus

On 2021-07-17, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Jul 2021 14:42:46 GMT
> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
>
>> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>>> On Friday, July 16, 2021 at 1:51:39 PM UTC-6, Questor wrote:
>>>
>>>> Those vent windows were notoriously easy to force open, which in turn
>>>> made it easy to snake something through them and open the door.
>>>> There's a good reason why cars no longer have them -- they facilitated
>>>> auto break-ins and theft.
>>
>> The main reasons that they were no longer included on cars is twofold:
>>
>> 1 - With the introduction of air-conditioners to automobiles,
>> they were no longer necessary.
>
> They were removed on this side of the pond too where air
> conditioners are not universal even now, and were rare and expensive when
> the quarterlights went away.
>
>> 2 - With the push for higher fleet mileage, it was found that the
>> quarter lights were detrimental to airflow and the removal of
>> them helped improve gas mileage.
>
> This is likely the main reason - there was a huge push for
> efficiency starting in the 1970s.
>

I remember that time, the car companies went in a lot for reducing
everything that could be reduced. I was visiting somewhere and had to
bring a dog that was inclined to get car sick if he saw the road passing
by, so it wasput in the booot(trunk). When I arrived and checked, the dog had
chewed the wires, and I had to reconnect them. Minimum length.


--
greymausg@mail.com
Down the wrong maushole.
Re: Chip shortage--use relays [message #410054 is a reply to message #409685] Sun, 18 July 2021 10:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joe Pfeiffer is currently offline  Joe Pfeiffer
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Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> writes:

> On 7/17/2021 9:06 AM, Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Friday, July 16, 2021 at 1:51:39 PM UTC-6, Questor wrote:
>>
>>> Those vent windows were notoriously easy to force open, which in turn made it
>>> easy to snake something through them and open the door. There's a good reason
>>> why cars no longer have them -- they facilitated auto break-ins and
>>> theft.

There were enough easy ways to break in to a vehicle in those days (my
late lamented 1978 Newport, a four door hardtop, had no frames around
the windows...) that I doubt it was a serious factor in getting rid of
vent windows.

>> Surely the design could have been modified so that it would be
>> impossible to force
>> them open without either breaking the glass or ripping off the metal of the door?
>> But in any case, that's not a good reason. Surely the appropriate
>> solution to a
>> problem like that, which imposes the costs where they belong - on dishonest
>> automobile thieves, not honest car owners - would be to increase penalties for
>> car theft so that those penalties would work as a successful deterrent.
>> We haven't had any nuclear wars, so what I mean by a "successful
>> deterrent" is
>> one that results in us not having any car thefts for a similar length of time.
>> Of course, perhaps one stupid person will have to steal a car, so
>> that people can
>> actually see the penalty carried out for it to have the required emotional impact
>> to achieve the desired result.
>> Of course, there's that pesky Eighth Amendment...
>> John Savard
>>
> I expect the real reason was to save the manufacturer money. Several
> parts (divider strip, weatherstripping, glass, hinges) plus the labor
> to install them, all at a cost beyond just having a slightly bigger
> piece of window glass. There is probably a tiny aerodynamic
> disadvantage to vent windows as well (less smooth), for that extra
> 0.01 mpg gain..

Also, I expect demand for them has dropped to near zero with the decline
of smoking. Just as the cigaret lighters are now "power outlets" with
no lighter and ashtrays are extra cost options, the cost of engineering
and tooling for vent windows wouldn't come close to breaking even.
Re: Chip shortage--use relays [message #410055 is a reply to message #410037] Sun, 18 July 2021 10:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quadibloc is currently offline  Quadibloc
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On Saturday, July 17, 2021 at 2:39:44 PM UTC-6, Questor wrote:
> a big problem these days is catalytic converter thefts.

Yes. We had a rash of them here in Edmonton.

Of course, catalytic converters are totally unnecessary, except in
a few areas vulnerable to smog. So this is the fault of inane
government regulation.

John Savard
Re: Chip shortage--use relays [message #410056 is a reply to message #410046] Sun, 18 July 2021 10:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quadibloc is currently offline  Quadibloc
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On Saturday, July 17, 2021 at 11:30:11 PM UTC-6, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Jul 2021 20:39:25 GMT
> use...@only.tnx (Questor) wrote:

>> If increasing the penalties for crimes was truly effective, then we could
>> simply assign the death penalty to every infraction and presto, crime
>> would virtually stop overnight.

> This used to be the case, at least for peasants. The result was to
> encourage murder - if you can get hanged for stealing a loaf of bread
> you'll kill anyone who catches you if you can, you might get away and if you
> don't you're no worse off.

Indeed, and, as I've noted, Blackstone's _Commentaries_ references the
issue.

John Savard
Re: Chip shortage--use relays [message #410061 is a reply to message #410055] Sun, 18 July 2021 11:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 07:45:07 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

> On Saturday, July 17, 2021 at 2:39:44 PM UTC-6, Questor wrote:
>> a big problem these days is catalytic converter thefts.
>
> Yes. We had a rash of them here in Edmonton.
>
> Of course, catalytic converters are totally unnecessary, except in
> a few areas vulnerable to smog. So this is the fault of inane
> government regulation.

They are advantageous in that they allow engines to be tuned for
performance instead of emissions. Try one of the wheezing invalids of
the late pre-catalytic-converter era to see how that works out.
Re: Chip shortage--use relays [message #410062 is a reply to message #410055] Sun, 18 July 2021 11:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
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Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> writes:

> On Saturday, July 17, 2021 at 2:39:44 PM UTC-6, Questor wrote:
>> a big problem these days is catalytic converter thefts.
>
> Yes. We had a rash of them here in Edmonton.
>
> Of course, catalytic converters are totally unnecessary, except in
> a few areas vulnerable to smog. So this is the fault of inane
> government regulation.

Those few areas should just learn to live with the problem.

Not that I give any credence to your claim.

--
Dan Espen
Re: Chip shortage--use relays [message #410065 is a reply to message #410062] Sun, 18 July 2021 14:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 11:18:28 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>
>> On Saturday, July 17, 2021 at 2:39:44 PM UTC-6, Questor wrote:
>>> a big problem these days is catalytic converter thefts.
>>
>> Yes. We had a rash of them here in Edmonton.
>>
>> Of course, catalytic converters are totally unnecessary, except in
>> a few areas vulnerable to smog. So this is the fault of inane
>> government regulation.
>
> Those few areas should just learn to live with the problem.
>
> Not that I give any credence to your claim.

The simplest solution to Los Angeles smog problem is to just warm the
globe enough to flood the place out.
Re: Chip shortage--use relays [message #410068 is a reply to message #410065] Sun, 18 July 2021 15:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
John Levine is currently offline  John Levine
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According to J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com>:
>>> Of course, catalytic converters are totally unnecessary, except in
>>> a few areas vulnerable to smog. So this is the fault of inane
>>> government regulation.
>>
>> Those few areas should just learn to live with the problem.
>>
>> Not that I give any credence to your claim.
>
> The simplest solution to Los Angeles smog problem is to just warm the
> globe enough to flood the place out.

It seems more likely it'll burn to the ground first.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
Re: Chip shortage--use relays [message #410069 is a reply to message #410068] Sun, 18 July 2021 16:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 19:41:12 -0000 (UTC), John Levine
<johnl@taugh.com> wrote:

> According to J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com>:
>>>> Of course, catalytic converters are totally unnecessary, except in
>>>> a few areas vulnerable to smog. So this is the fault of inane
>>>> government regulation.
>>>
>>> Those few areas should just learn to live with the problem.
>>>
>>> Not that I give any credence to your claim.
>>
>> The simplest solution to Los Angeles smog problem is to just warm the
>> globe enough to flood the place out.
>
> It seems more likely it'll burn to the ground first.

Yeah, but if it's flooded out it's a lot harder to rebuild.
Re: Chip shortage--use relays [message #410070 is a reply to message #410065] Sun, 18 July 2021 16:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
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J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:

> On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 11:18:28 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>>
>>> On Saturday, July 17, 2021 at 2:39:44 PM UTC-6, Questor wrote:
>>>> a big problem these days is catalytic converter thefts.
>>>
>>> Yes. We had a rash of them here in Edmonton.
>>>
>>> Of course, catalytic converters are totally unnecessary, except in
>>> a few areas vulnerable to smog. So this is the fault of inane
>>> government regulation.
>>
>> Those few areas should just learn to live with the problem.
>>
>> Not that I give any credence to your claim.
>
> The simplest solution to Los Angeles smog problem is to just warm the
> globe enough to flood the place out.

Average elevation 285ft. That kind of sea level rise might cause other
problems. Not sure how simple it would be.

--
Dan Espen
Re: Chip shortage--use relays [message #410078 is a reply to message #410065] Sun, 18 July 2021 19:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
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J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
> On Sun, 18 Jul 2021 11:18:28 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>>
>>> On Saturday, July 17, 2021 at 2:39:44 PM UTC-6, Questor wrote:
>>>> a big problem these days is catalytic converter thefts.
>>>
>>> Yes. We had a rash of them here in Edmonton.
>>>
>>> Of course, catalytic converters are totally unnecessary, except in
>>> a few areas vulnerable to smog. So this is the fault of inane
>>> government regulation.
>>
>> Those few areas should just learn to live with the problem.
>>
>> Not that I give any credence to your claim.
>
> The simplest solution to Los Angeles smog problem is to just warm the
> globe enough to flood the place out.

And you wonder why people don't like you.

FYI, downtown LA is at 305 ft. ASL, with vast portions
of the basin at higher elevations, and the beach communities
(where all the wealthy folks live) closer to sea level.
Re: Chip shortage--use relays [message #410079 is a reply to message #410037] Sun, 18 July 2021 19:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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Questor <usenet@only.tnx> wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Jul 2021 07:06:17 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>> On Friday, July 16, 2021 at 1:51:39 PM UTC-6, Questor wrote:
>>> Those vent windows were notoriously easy to force open, which in turn made it
>>> easy to snake something through them and open the door. There's a good reason
>>> why cars no longer have them -- they facilitated auto break-ins and theft.
>>
>> Surely the design could have been modified so that it would be impossible to force
>> them open without either breaking the glass or ripping off the metal of the door?
>
> Perhaps. I'm not a mechanical engineer, so I don't know much about what would
> be cheap and easy to do. (And if it's not cheap and easy, it's not going to be
> done across many thousands of cars.) It seems to me that the nature of the
> vent -- the vertical pivot, a short and simple mechanism -- lends itself to this
> kind of exploit.
>
>
>> But in any case, that's not a good reason. Surely the appropriate solution to a
>> problem like that, which imposes the costs where they belong - on dishonest
>> automobile thieves, not honest car owners - would be to increase penalties for
>> car theft so that those penalties would work as a successful deterrent.
>
> What a naive, idealistic -- and punitive point of view. You seem to be unaware
> of just how quickly and easily a reasonably skilled thief can break into a car
> through a vent window. The correct unit of time to use is seconds, not minutes.
> Couple that with the obvious impossibility of patrolling or monitoring even a
> majority of cars. Unless they get caught in the act, thieves breaking into cars
> rarely get caught, so the risk/reward ratio for them is generally favorable.
>
> We should be able to leave our doors unlocked too -- but we don't, because
> simply locking a door is a more effective deterrent than raising the penalties
> for burglary. If vent windows are a serious vulnerability, then eliminating
> them will prevent more break-ins than harsher penalties. This goes along with
> other common sense precautions, such as not leaving any valuables in your car.
>
> Aside: Years ago I had a old, bulky Telefunken portable multi-band radio that I
> kept in my car so I could listen to FM stations, as the car was not so equipped.
> One night thieves broke into my car, ostensibly to steal it, but when they got
> their hands on it they realized it wasn't worth taking. In the morning I found
> my car had been broken into, but nothing was taken -- they left the radio on the
> front seat.
>

This happened to us last year. Papers taken out of the glove box, but
nothing worth stealing.

--
Pete
Re: Chip shortage--use relays [message #410094 is a reply to message #410065] Mon, 19 July 2021 11:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Kurt Weiske

To: J. Clarke
-=> J. Clarke wrote to alt.folklore.computers <=-

JC> The simplest solution to Los Angeles smog problem is to just warm the
JC> globe enough to flood the place out.

According to John Carpenter, the next big earthquake will separate LA from
the west coast. They could become their own country!

kurt weiske | kweiske at realitycheckbbs dot org
| http://realitycheckbbs.org
| 1:218/700@fidonet




.... Emphasize differences
--- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
--- Synchronet 3.19a-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
* realitycheckBBS - Aptos, CA - telnet://realitycheckbbs.org
Re: Chip shortage--use relays [message #410095 is a reply to message #410094] Mon, 19 July 2021 12:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
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"Kurt Weiske" <kurt.weiske@realitycheckbbs.org.remove-r25-this> writes:
> To: J. Clarke
> -=> J. Clarke wrote to alt.folklore.computers <=-
>
> JC> The simplest solution to Los Angeles smog problem is to just warm the
> JC> globe enough to flood the place out.
>
> According to John Carpenter, the next big earthquake will separate LA from
> the west coast. They could become their own country!
>

Of course, carpenter writes fiction.

The fault is a strike-slip fault, so LA will just move north a few
inches.
Re: Chip shortage--use relays [message #410097 is a reply to message #410095] Mon, 19 July 2021 13:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On Mon, 19 Jul 2021 16:50:39 GMT
scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:

> The fault is a strike-slip fault, so LA will just move north a few
> inches.

So all the stuff I heard years ago about it being poised to let go
completely making half of California fall off the continent was nonsense ?

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Chip shortage--use relays [message #410099 is a reply to message #410097] Mon, 19 July 2021 14:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
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Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
> On Mon, 19 Jul 2021 16:50:39 GMT
> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
>
>> The fault is a strike-slip fault, so LA will just move north a few
>> inches.
>
> So all the stuff I heard years ago about it being poised to let go
> completely making half of California fall off the continent was nonsense ?

Yup. LA will end up north of San Francisco sometime in the next
twenty million years. The Pacific plate is pushing up under
the North American plate (hence the coastal mountain ranges).
Re: Chip shortage--use relays [message #410102 is a reply to message #410094] Mon, 19 July 2021 16:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Bob Eager

On Mon, 19 Jul 2021 08:26:00 -0700, Kurt Weiske wrote:

> According to John Carpenter, the next big earthquake will separate LA
> from the west coast. They could become their own country!

Wouldn't that leave a dark scar?



--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Re: Chip shortage--use relays [message #410117 is a reply to message #410095] Tue, 20 July 2021 10:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Kurt Weiske

To: scott
-=> scott wrote to alt.folklore.computers <=-

sc> Of course, carpenter writes fiction.

sc> The fault is a strike-slip fault, so LA will just move north a few
sc> inches.

That'll shorten the drive to Disneyland.

kurt weiske | kweiske at realitycheckbbs dot org
| http://realitycheckbbs.org
| 1:218/700@fidonet


.... Powered By Celeron (Tualatin). Engineered for the future.
--- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
--- Synchronet 3.19a-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
* realitycheckBBS - Aptos, CA - telnet://realitycheckbbs.org
Re: Chip shortage--use relays [message #410120 is a reply to message #410117] Tue, 20 July 2021 12:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
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"Kurt Weiske" <kurt.weiske@realitycheckbbs.org.remove-f2b-this> writes:
> To: scott
> -=> scott wrote to alt.folklore.computers <=-
>
> sc> Of course, carpenter writes fiction.
>
> sc> The fault is a strike-slip fault, so LA will just move north a few
> sc> inches.
>
> That'll shorten the drive to Disneyland.
>
> kurt weiske | kweiske at realitycheckbbs dot org
> | http://realitycheckbbs.org
> | 1:218/700@fidonet

In a few million years, it will pass Aptos, which is just
over the hill from here.
Re: Chip shortage--use relays [message #410122 is a reply to message #410097] Tue, 20 July 2021 14:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
usenet is currently offline  usenet
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On Mon, 19 Jul 2021 18:13:31 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Jul 2021 16:50:39 GMT
> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
>
>> The fault is a strike-slip fault, so LA will just move north a few
>> inches.
>
> So all the stuff I heard years ago about it being poised to let go
> completely making half of California fall off the continent was nonsense ?

They'll get the last laugh when everything East of the San Andreas Fault falls
into the Atlantic Ocean.


Actually, the current geologic theory is something of the opposite. It is
believed that California is the result of several island chains being driven
into the North American continent, the edge of which was much farther East
millions of years ago. The resulting accretion eventually became Nevada and
then California; the geologic makeup of the latter is especially varied due to
its multiple sources.
Re: Chip shortage--use relays [message #410123 is a reply to message #410008] Tue, 20 July 2021 14:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
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On Friday, July 16, 2021 at 6:41:15 PM UTC-4, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> One of the few things I didn't like about our 1989 CR-V was that
> the sides were angled somewhat inwards - enough that one day when
> we encountered a sudden rainstorm and we had left the windows open,
> a lot of water had gotten in by the time we got back.

I think a lot of vehicles are like that nowadays. Mine sure is.

Maybe it has to do with maximizing streamlining to get better fuel economy.
Re: Chip shortage--use relays [message #410124 is a reply to message #410025] Tue, 20 July 2021 14:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
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On Saturday, July 17, 2021 at 10:06:18 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:


> Of course, perhaps one stupid person will have to steal a car, so that people can
> actually see the penalty carried out for it to have the required emotional impact
> to achieve the desired result.

Heavy deterrents don't work by themselves to discourage crime. First, thieves
need to know there's a high probability they'll be caught and sent to jail for a while.
At present, they know the odds are well in their favor.

Second, the underlying motivations must be addressed. A drug addict doesn't
think nor care, he needs to steal for his fix. Sadly, a lot of criminals today just
act on stupid impulse, not thinking.
Re: Chip shortage--use relays [message #410125 is a reply to message #410032] Tue, 20 July 2021 14:47 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
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On Saturday, July 17, 2021 at 12:30:02 PM UTC-4, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:


> This is likely the main reason - there was a huge push for
> efficiency starting in the 1970s.

Some say it's more fuel efficient to leave the windows closed and run the a/c.
Does it make a material difference for a motorist?

In my opinion, the vent windows were removed to save money for the mfrs.
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