| Re: The Windows 95 chime was created on a Mac [message #356712 is a reply to message #356711] |
Tue, 14 November 2017 11:35   |
pechter
Messages: 452
Registered: July 2012
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In article <87d14kx1ua.fsf@example.com>, Nuwen <nuwen@example.com> wrote:
> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
>>> Of course we love nostalgia (wouldn't otherwise read and write here) we
>>> might have old 16Bit or 8Bit hardware, or emulate that.
>>
>> What about old computers used by the military? Atomic bombs must have
>> old gear.
>>
>> /BAH
>
> Keeping the stockpile up to date is a massive undertaking by the NNSA;
> components that are suitable for upgrading are upgraded to modern CPUs
> etc., although of course something which just checks a sensor every
> second and sends an alert if something's "off" can just as well stay
> 8-bit.
>
> nuwen
Some of the stuff I worked on in the 90's has (according to rumors)
moved from hardware to emulation under faster, smaller, lighter
hardware.
Emulating a Vax or Perkin-Elmer/Concurrent 3250 can probably move to
something the size of a Raspberry Pi -- or custom built module with no
loss of speed or function. Realistically, porting the software can
often be more expensive than using an emulator, since testing the
emulator and software is less labor intensive than rewriting, debugging
and building a new system and verifying it against the existing system.
Running the emulated system and current production box in parallel
with the same data may be less debugging.
Bill
--
Digital had it then. Don't you wish you could buy it now!
pechter-at-gmail.com http://xkcd.com/705/
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| Re: The Windows 95 chime was created on a Mac [message #356713 is a reply to message #356590] |
Tue, 14 November 2017 11:41 |
Anssi Saari
Messages: 327
Registered: January 2012
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Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> writes:
> On Mon, 2017-10-23, Peter Flass wrote:
>> 64-bit Linux runs 32-bit programs just fine, [...]
>
> Although, running with such a mismatch indicates you're either running
> badly broken software (which, for some reason, after decades of 64-bit
> Unix still isn't portable to a modern system) or you're running
> non-free software produced by a really backwards company and you're a
> sucker.
Yes, such as Android dev tools from Google or a game management system
like Valve's Steam. I guess there are others but those are the ones I've
used.
And how exactly did that make me a sucker?
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| Re: The Windows 95 chime was created on a Mac [message #356714 is a reply to message #354475] |
Tue, 14 November 2017 13:02 |
Alan Bowler
Messages: 185
Registered: July 2012
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On 2017-10-19 6:57 AM, Huge wrote:
> On 2017-10-19, Joe Makowiec <makowiec@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 18 Oct 2017 in alt.folklore.computers, wrote:
>>
>>> books just filled with various function tables.
>>
>> Chemical Rubber Company (CRC)'s "Handbook of Chemistry and Physics",
>
> Which we always called "the rubber handbook".
I knew it as the "rubber bible". I got mine for free as a
prize when I graduated highschool. However, being a math student
it did not get too much use. The lower level chem and physics courses
I took as electives just didn't get into areas that needed it much.
Over the years I have looked at it for information about
stuff that had come up in conversations, but these days
Wikipedia is often easier to check.
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| Re: The Windows 95 chime was created on a Mac [message #356720 is a reply to message #356601] |
Wed, 15 November 2017 00:13 |
usenet
Messages: 556
Registered: May 2013
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On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 21:12:55 -0600, Osmium <r124c4u102@comcast.net> wrote:
> On 11/13/2017 8:46 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>> On 2017-11-13, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>
>>> The problem with 32Bit (any OS) will show in about 21 years (Y2K38
>>> bug). If course by then it's not too likely anyone still runs 32Bit
>>> software. Like today almost no one runs 16Bit or even 8Bit on productive
>>> systems.
>>>
>>> Of course we love nostalgia (wouldn't otherwise read and write here) we
>>> might have old 16Bit or 8Bit hardware, or emulate that.
>> I still build MS-DOS and Win16 versions of my stuff, although it's
>> mostly because it'd be more trouble to remove the routines from my
>> system. As for the 2038 problem, it's conceivable that you could
>> define time_t as 64-bit even on 32-bit systems...
>
> The notion that hardware design should be related in any way whatsoever
> to the time it takes the earth to revolve around the sun makes me sick
> to my stomach.
What other regular, periodic, natural event would you suggest ancient mankind
have used to mark and measure time? They didn't know about cesium atoms.
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| Re: The Windows 95 chime was created on a Mac [message #356721 is a reply to message #356596] |
Wed, 15 November 2017 00:14 |
usenet
Messages: 556
Registered: May 2013
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On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 17:18:32 -0500, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 19:28:08 GMT, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> writes:
>>> On Mon, 2017-10-23, Peter Flass wrote:
>>
>>>> 64-bit Linux runs 32-bit programs just fine, [...]
>>>
>>> Although, running with such a mismatch indicates you're either running
>>> badly broken software (which, for some reason, after decades of 64-bit
>>> Unix still isn't portable to a modern system) or you're running
>>> non-free software produced by a really backwards company and you're a
>>> sucker.
>>
>> Or you care about icache/dcache footprint. If an application doesn't
>> require a large memory footprint, what's wrong with compiling it
>> for 32-bit on an intel 64-bit host?
>
> I think he was talking about running 32Bit programs on a 64Bit Linux OS.
>
> I have a 64Bit CPU but run 32Bit Linux just fine.
>
> The problem with 32Bit (any OS) will show in about 21 years (Y2K38
> bug). If course by then it's not too likely anyone still runs 32Bit
> software. Like today almost no one runs 16Bit or even 8Bit on productive
> systems.
Are you excluding embedded systems? I have read that 8-bit processors like the
Z80 still vastly outnumber everything else.
> Of course we love nostalgia (wouldn't otherwise read and write here) we
> might have old 16Bit or 8Bit hardware, or emulate that.
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| Re: The Windows 95 chime was created on a Mac [message #356726 is a reply to message #356720] |
Wed, 15 November 2017 11:42 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
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On Wed, 15 Nov 2017 05:13:58 GMT
usenet@only.tnx (Questor) wrote:
> What other regular, periodic, natural event would you suggest ancient
> mankind have used to mark and measure time? They didn't know about
> cesium atoms.
Heartbeats and breaths have both been used.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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| Re: The Windows 95 chime was created on a Mac [message #356728 is a reply to message #356726] |
Wed, 15 November 2017 12:10 |
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Originally posted by: Nuwen
Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
> On Wed, 15 Nov 2017 05:13:58 GMT
> usenet@only.tnx (Questor) wrote:
>
>> What other regular, periodic, natural event would you suggest ancient
>> mankind have used to mark and measure time? They didn't know about
>> cesium atoms.
>
> Heartbeats and breaths have both been used.
Two methods which will allow me to walk a mile faster than I can run
it... the faster I go, the quicker the time-units come! Of course to a
stationary observer, that's not true. If we used heartbeats or breaths
to measure time, I therefore propose we would have developed the theory
of relativity much, much earlier!
nuwen
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| Re: The Windows 95 chime was created on a Mac [message #356731 is a reply to message #356721] |
Wed, 15 November 2017 12:41 |
Charles Richmond
Messages: 2754
Registered: December 2011
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On 11/14/2017 11:14 PM, Questor wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 17:18:32 -0500, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>> On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 19:28:08 GMT, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>> Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> writes:
>>>> On Mon, 2017-10-23, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>
>>>> > 64-bit Linux runs 32-bit programs just fine, [...]
>>>>
>>>> Although, running with such a mismatch indicates you're either running
>>>> badly broken software (which, for some reason, after decades of 64-bit
>>>> Unix still isn't portable to a modern system) or you're running
>>>> non-free software produced by a really backwards company and you're a
>>>> sucker.
>>>
>>> Or you care about icache/dcache footprint. If an application doesn't
>>> require a large memory footprint, what's wrong with compiling it
>>> for 32-bit on an intel 64-bit host?
>>
>> I think he was talking about running 32Bit programs on a 64Bit Linux OS.
>>
>> I have a 64Bit CPU but run 32Bit Linux just fine.
>>
>> The problem with 32Bit (any OS) will show in about 21 years (Y2K38
>> bug). If course by then it's not too likely anyone still runs 32Bit
>> software. Like today almost no one runs 16Bit or even 8Bit on productive
>> systems.
>
> Are you excluding embedded systems? I have read that 8-bit processors like the
> Z80 still vastly outnumber everything else.
>
>
>> Of course we love nostalgia (wouldn't otherwise read and write here) we
>> might have old 16Bit or 8Bit hardware, or emulate that.
>
ISTM that many embedded systems with minimal requirements... may be
using 4-bit processors similar to the Texas Instruments TMS1000:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Instruments_TMS1000
Back 20 years ago a "full featured" home phone was build around such
4-bit processors. The processor could even be used to generate the
DTMF dialing tones. Such phones typically had a memory that the
processor could use to store and recall phone numbers... attached to
certain buttons on the front of the phone.
ISTM that many simple kitchen appliances could ge adequately served by
such 4-bit processors.
--
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
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| Re: The Windows 95 chime was created on a Mac [message #356733 is a reply to message #356726] |
Wed, 15 November 2017 12:44 |
usenet
Messages: 556
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
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On Wed, 15 Nov 2017 16:42:09 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Nov 2017 05:13:58 GMT
> usenet@only.tnx (Questor) wrote:
>
>> What other regular, periodic, natural event would you suggest ancient
>> mankind have used to mark and measure time? They didn't know about
>> cesium atoms.
>
> Heartbeats and breaths have both been used.
As noted elsewhere, these aren't truly regular. They are also too impractical
to use for any extended period.
I am imagining pairs of monks: one to sit quietly and breathe, the other to
count and record the number of breaths.
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| Re: The Windows 95 chime was created on a Mac [message #356735 is a reply to message #354871] |
Wed, 15 November 2017 12:52 |
Alan Bowler
Messages: 185
Registered: July 2012
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On 2017-10-21 3:17 PM, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>
> The Campbell-Kelly history says the 1401 sold very well because
> of its high quality and fast 1403 printer.
Wasn't it also sold as the unit record driver for the 7000 series
machines? I.e. cards of card jobs were written to tape by 1401s for
the "big" machines which produced printer tapes for the 1401s to print.
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| Re: The Windows 95 chime was created on a Mac [message #356737 is a reply to message #356731] |
Wed, 15 November 2017 16:18 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
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On Wed, 15 Nov 2017 11:41:08 -0600
Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
> ISTM that many embedded systems with minimal requirements... may be
> using 4-bit processors similar to the Texas Instruments TMS1000:
Very true but small 32 bit ARM SOCs are so cheap now that the
cost saving using a 4 bit processor is insignificant and overwhelmed by the
savings in software development costs.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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| Re: The Windows 95 chime was created on a Mac [message #356738 is a reply to message #356731] |
Wed, 15 November 2017 17:22 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
> On 11/14/2017 11:14 PM, Questor wrote:
>> On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 17:18:32 -0500, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 19:28:08 GMT, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>> Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> writes:
>>>> > On Mon, 2017-10-23, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >> 64-bit Linux runs 32-bit programs just fine, [...]
>>>> >
>>>> > Although, running with such a mismatch indicates you're either running
>>>> > badly broken software (which, for some reason, after decades of 64-bit
>>>> > Unix still isn't portable to a modern system) or you're running
>>>> > non-free software produced by a really backwards company and you're a
>>>> > sucker.
>>>>
>>>> Or you care about icache/dcache footprint. If an application doesn't
>>>> require a large memory footprint, what's wrong with compiling it
>>>> for 32-bit on an intel 64-bit host?
>>>
>>> I think he was talking about running 32Bit programs on a 64Bit Linux OS.
>>>
>>> I have a 64Bit CPU but run 32Bit Linux just fine.
>>>
>>> The problem with 32Bit (any OS) will show in about 21 years (Y2K38
>>> bug). If course by then it's not too likely anyone still runs 32Bit
>>> software. Like today almost no one runs 16Bit or even 8Bit on productive
>>> systems.
>>
>> Are you excluding embedded systems? I have read that 8-bit processors like the
>> Z80 still vastly outnumber everything else.
>>
>>
>>> Of course we love nostalgia (wouldn't otherwise read and write here) we
>>> might have old 16Bit or 8Bit hardware, or emulate that.
>>
>
> ISTM that many embedded systems with minimal requirements... may be
> using 4-bit processors similar to the Texas Instruments TMS1000:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Instruments_TMS1000
>
> Back 20 years ago a "full featured" home phone was build around such
> 4-bit processors. The processor could even be used to generate the
> DTMF dialing tones. Such phones typically had a memory that the
> processor could use to store and recall phone numbers... attached to
> certain buttons on the front of the phone.
>
> ISTM that many simple kitchen appliances could ge adequately served by
> such 4-bit processors.
>
Cost is a major factor in deciding what goes into imbedded systems. I can
believe 8-bit, but I can't see that there'd be much of a cost saving today
by using a 4-bit processor. Cost usually favors the most wifely used parts.
--
Pete
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| Re: The Windows 95 chime was created on a Mac [message #356739 is a reply to message #356735] |
Wed, 15 November 2017 17:22 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
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Alan Bowler <atbowler@thinkage.ca> wrote:
> On 2017-10-21 3:17 PM, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>
>> The Campbell-Kelly history says the 1401 sold very well because
>> of its high quality and fast 1403 printer.
>
> Wasn't it also sold as the unit record driver for the 7000 series
> machines? I.e. cards of card jobs were written to tape by 1401s for
> the "big" machines which produced printer tapes for the 1401s to print.
>
yes
--
Pete
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| Re: The Windows 95 chime was created on a Mac [message #356743 is a reply to message #354475] |
Wed, 15 November 2017 17:40 |
mausg
Messages: 2483
Registered: May 2013
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On 2017-11-15, Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> wrote:
> On 11/14/2017 11:13 PM, Questor wrote:
>> On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 21:12:55 -0600, Osmium <r124c4u102@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>> The notion that hardware design should be related in any way whatsoever
>>> to the time it takes the earth to revolve around the sun makes me sick
>>> to my stomach.
>>
>> What other regular, periodic, natural event would you suggest ancient mankind
>> have used to mark and measure time? They didn't know about cesium atoms.
>>
> Days, which could be subdivided by sundials, water clocks,
> hourglasses, etc. If desired, a "standard" day (e.g. at equinox) could
> be used, with any arbitrary number of subdivisions (just as seconds
> are an arbitrary subdivision). Pendulums.
>
> We could and did deal with very small time increments long before
> anybody could peer at a cesium atom, though the "ancient" constraint
> skews toward standards that are easily observable. But if you're
> willing to use the king's foot as a standard of length, there are lots
> of possibilities. Most standards of measurement are arbitrary, anyhow.
Its kinda nice to remember ones that depended on something `real', as
in inch, foot, pace, acre (what a plough team could plough in a day)(
or a different definition, how much land that would keep a cow). I
never got there, but there is a town in scotland that has examples of
common length chiseled on the walls of its market place. I wonder
where the Sumerians got the idea of dividing time into sixtyieths.
--
greymaus.ireland.ie
Just_Another_Grumpy_Old_Man
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| Re: The Windows 95 chime was created on a Mac [message #356744 is a reply to message #356738] |
Wed, 15 November 2017 17:43 |
mausg
Messages: 2483
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2017-11-15, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>> On 11/14/2017 11:14 PM, Questor wrote:
>>> On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 17:18:32 -0500, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 19:28:08 GMT, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>> > Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> writes:
>>>> >> On Mon, 2017-10-23, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>> >
>> ISTM that many simple kitchen appliances could ge adequately served by
>> such 4-bit processors.
>>
>
> Cost is a major factor in deciding what goes into imbedded systems. I can
> believe 8-bit, but I can't see that there'd be much of a cost saving today
> by using a 4-bit processor. Cost usually favors the most wifely used parts.
a ^^^^^
Thoughts on other things ? :)
--
greymaus.ireland.ie
Just_Another_Grumpy_Old_Man
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| Re: The Windows 95 chime was created on a Mac [message #356748 is a reply to message #354475] |
Wed, 15 November 2017 21:44 |
Joe Pfeiffer
Messages: 764
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> writes:
> On 11/14/2017 11:13 PM, Questor wrote:
>> On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 21:12:55 -0600, Osmium <r124c4u102@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>> The notion that hardware design should be related in any way whatsoever
>>> to the time it takes the earth to revolve around the sun makes me sick
>>> to my stomach.
>>
>> What other regular, periodic, natural event would you suggest ancient mankind
>> have used to mark and measure time? They didn't know about cesium atoms.
>>
> Days, which could be subdivided by sundials, water clocks,
> hourglasses, etc. If desired, a "standard" day (e.g. at equinox) could
> be used, with any arbitrary number of subdivisions (just as seconds
> are an arbitrary subdivision). Pendulums.
>
> We could and did deal with very small time increments long before
> anybody could peer at a cesium atom, though the "ancient" constraint
> skews toward standards that are easily observable. But if you're
> willing to use the king's foot as a standard of length, there are lots
> of possibilities. Most standards of measurement are arbitrary, anyhow.
And why would the time it takes for the planet to make a rotation be any
more relevant than the time it takes to make a revolution?
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| Re: The Windows 95 chime was created on a Mac [message #356749 is a reply to message #356743] |
Wed, 15 November 2017 21:45 |
Joe Pfeiffer
Messages: 764
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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mausg@mail.com writes:
> On 2017-11-15, Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> wrote:
>> On 11/14/2017 11:13 PM, Questor wrote:
>>> On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 21:12:55 -0600, Osmium <r124c4u102@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>>> The notion that hardware design should be related in any way whatsoever
>>>> to the time it takes the earth to revolve around the sun makes me sick
>>>> to my stomach.
>>>
>>> What other regular, periodic, natural event would you suggest ancient mankind
>>> have used to mark and measure time? They didn't know about cesium atoms.
>>>
>> Days, which could be subdivided by sundials, water clocks,
>> hourglasses, etc. If desired, a "standard" day (e.g. at equinox) could
>> be used, with any arbitrary number of subdivisions (just as seconds
>> are an arbitrary subdivision). Pendulums.
>>
>> We could and did deal with very small time increments long before
>> anybody could peer at a cesium atom, though the "ancient" constraint
>> skews toward standards that are easily observable. But if you're
>> willing to use the king's foot as a standard of length, there are lots
>> of possibilities. Most standards of measurement are arbitrary, anyhow.
>
>
> Its kinda nice to remember ones that depended on something `real', as
> in inch, foot, pace, acre (what a plough team could plough in a day)(
> or a different definition, how much land that would keep a cow). I
> never got there, but there is a town in scotland that has examples of
> common length chiseled on the walls of its market place. I wonder
> where the Sumerians got the idea of dividing time into sixtyieths.
One of those brilliant ancient insights that we know happened, but are
unlikely to ever know how...
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| Re: The Windows 95 chime was created on a Mac [message #356750 is a reply to message #354475] |
Wed, 15 November 2017 23:42 |
Joe Pfeiffer
Messages: 764
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> writes:
> On 11/15/2017 8:44 PM, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>> Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 11/14/2017 11:13 PM, Questor wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 21:12:55 -0600, Osmium <r124c4u102@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> > The notion that hardware design should be related in any way whatsoever
>>>> > to the time it takes the earth to revolve around the sun makes me sick
>>>> > to my stomach.
>>>>
>>>> What other regular, periodic, natural event would you suggest ancient mankind
>>>> have used to mark and measure time? They didn't know about cesium atoms.
>>>>
>>> Days, which could be subdivided by sundials, water clocks,
>>> hourglasses, etc. If desired, a "standard" day (e.g. at equinox) could
>>> be used, with any arbitrary number of subdivisions (just as seconds
>>> are an arbitrary subdivision). Pendulums.
>>>
>>> We could and did deal with very small time increments long before
>>> anybody could peer at a cesium atom, though the "ancient" constraint
>>> skews toward standards that are easily observable. But if you're
>>> willing to use the king's foot as a standard of length, there are lots
>>> of possibilities. Most standards of measurement are arbitrary, anyhow.
>>
>> And why would the time it takes for the planet to make a rotation be any
>> more relevant than the time it takes to make a revolution?
>>
> Relevant? They're all arbitrary. They just have to be repeatable.
Osmium seemed to take offense to the idea that we should use years as a
unit of measure (he also seemed to think this had something to do with
architecture, when of course the real question is just having a variable
size big enough to fit whatever we use as the basic time increment).
Questor asked what else might be suggested, and you responded with
days. So I asked why days would be any better than years.
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| Re: The Windows 95 chime was created on a Mac [message #356751 is a reply to message #356738] |
Thu, 16 November 2017 02:07 |
Andrew Swallow
Messages: 1705
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 15/11/2017 22:22, Peter Flass wrote:
{snip}
>
> Cost is a major factor in deciding what goes into imbedded systems. I can
> believe 8-bit, but I can't see that there'd be much of a cost saving today
> by using a 4-bit processor. Cost usually favors the most wifely used parts.
>
Calculators used to use 4-bit processor chips. Good for decimal
arithmetic. I do not know what they use nowadays.
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| Re: The Windows 95 chime was created on a Mac [message #356752 is a reply to message #356748] |
Thu, 16 November 2017 02:15 |
Andrew Swallow
Messages: 1705
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 16/11/2017 02:44, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
{snip}
>
> And why would the time it takes for the planet to make a rotation be any
> more relevant than the time it takes to make a revolution?
>
A day and a year are both time measures used by animals and plants.
Therefore farmers have to use them to know when to feed their animals
and sow the seeds.
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| Re: The Windows 95 chime was created on a Mac [message #356753 is a reply to message #356749] |
Thu, 16 November 2017 03:41 |
mausg
Messages: 2483
Registered: May 2013
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On 2017-11-16, Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote:
> mausg@mail.com writes:
>
>> On 2017-11-15, Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> wrote:
>>> On 11/14/2017 11:13 PM, Questor wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 21:12:55 -0600, Osmium <r124c4u102@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> > The notion that hardware design should be related in any way whatsoever
>>>> > to the time it takes the earth to revolve around the sun makes me sick
>>>> > to my stomach.
>>>>
>>>> What other regular, periodic, natural event would you suggest ancient mankind
>>>> have used to mark and measure time? They didn't know about cesium atoms.
>>>>
>>> Days, which could be subdivided by sundials, water clocks,
>>> hourglasses, etc. If desired, a "standard" day (e.g. at equinox) could
>>> be used, with any arbitrary number of subdivisions (just as seconds
>>> are an arbitrary subdivision). Pendulums.
>>>
>>> We could and did deal with very small time increments long before
>>> anybody could peer at a cesium atom, though the "ancient" constraint
>>> skews toward standards that are easily observable. But if you're
>>> willing to use the king's foot as a standard of length, there are lots
>>> of possibilities. Most standards of measurement are arbitrary, anyhow.
>>
>>
>> Its kinda nice to remember ones that depended on something `real', as
>> in inch, foot, pace, acre (what a plough team could plough in a day)(
>> or a different definition, how much land that would keep a cow). I
>> never got there, but there is a town in scotland that has examples of
>> common length chiseled on the walls of its market place. I wonder
>> where the Sumerians got the idea of dividing time into sixtyieths.
>
> One of those brilliant ancient insights that we know happened, but are
> unlikely to ever know how...
Hopefully, the aliens will come back to see how we are getting on.
--
greymaus.ireland.ie
Just_Another_Grumpy_Old_Man
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| Re: The Windows 95 chime was created on a Mac [message #356754 is a reply to message #356747] |
Thu, 16 November 2017 03:43 |
mausg
Messages: 2483
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2017-11-16, Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote:
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>
>> On Wed, 15 Nov 2017 05:13:58 GMT
>> usenet@only.tnx (Questor) wrote:
>>
>>> What other regular, periodic, natural event would you suggest ancient
>>> mankind have used to mark and measure time? They didn't know about
>>> cesium atoms.
>>
>> Heartbeats and breaths have both been used.
>
> Regular?
Heisenberg, heartbeat would be increased when it is being checked.
--
greymaus.ireland.ie
Just_Another_Grumpy_Old_Man
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| Re: The Windows 95 chime was created on a Mac [message #356755 is a reply to message #356752] |
Thu, 16 November 2017 03:48 |
mausg
Messages: 2483
Registered: May 2013
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On 2017-11-16, Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On 16/11/2017 02:44, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
> {snip}
>
>>
>> And why would the time it takes for the planet to make a rotation be any
>> more relevant than the time it takes to make a revolution?
>>
>
> A day and a year are both time measures used by animals and plants.
> Therefore farmers have to use them to know when to feed their animals
> and sow the seeds.
It got to be a problem in England before they changed to Gregorian
calendar.
There was a time, I cannot remember where I read this, when there was
an 'empty'day between years, may have something to do with putting
out the fires on last day of the old year, and lighting from a
'blessed' fire on the first day of the new.
Often mentioned in fairy tales.
"The Gods are angry, they must be propiated(sp?)"
--
greymaus.ireland.ie
Just_Another_Grumpy_Old_Man
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| Re: The Windows 95 chime was created on a Mac [message #356756 is a reply to message #356752] |
Thu, 16 November 2017 05:12 |
Andy Burns
Messages: 416
Registered: June 2012
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Andrew Swallow wrote:
> Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>
>> And why would the time it takes for the planet to make a rotation be any
>> more relevant than the time it takes to make a revolution?
>
> A day and a year are both time measures used by animals and plants.
> Therefore farmers have to use them to know when to feed their animals
> and sow the seeds.
I know animals (plants too?) have circadian clocks so they do measure
days, the clock needs exposure to the actual effects of a day to keep
then synced.
But do they have a 'circaannian' calendar measuring years? Or do they
/only/ react to the actual effects of a season? e.g. lawns and pigeons
can often be fooled by a mild autumn into thinking it's spring.
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| Re: The Windows 95 chime was created on a Mac [message #356758 is a reply to message #356747] |
Thu, 16 November 2017 07:57 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote:
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>
>> On Wed, 15 Nov 2017 05:13:58 GMT
>> usenet@only.tnx (Questor) wrote:
>>
>>> What other regular, periodic, natural event would you suggest ancient
>>> mankind have used to mark and measure time? They didn't know about
>>> cesium atoms.
>>
>> Heartbeats and breaths have both been used.
>
> Regular?
>
In one of his famous experiments Galileo timed, (IIRC) the period of a
pendulum using his pulse.
Let's hope that as he began seeing the results he didn't get too excited.
--
Pete
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| Re: The Windows 95 chime was created on a Mac [message #356759 is a reply to message #356748] |
Thu, 16 November 2017 07:57 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote:
> Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> writes:
>
>> On 11/14/2017 11:13 PM, Questor wrote:
>>> On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 21:12:55 -0600, Osmium <r124c4u102@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>>> The notion that hardware design should be related in any way whatsoever
>>>> to the time it takes the earth to revolve around the sun makes me sick
>>>> to my stomach.
>>>
>>> What other regular, periodic, natural event would you suggest ancient mankind
>>> have used to mark and measure time? They didn't know about cesium atoms.
>>>
>> Days, which could be subdivided by sundials, water clocks,
>> hourglasses, etc. If desired, a "standard" day (e.g. at equinox) could
>> be used, with any arbitrary number of subdivisions (just as seconds
>> are an arbitrary subdivision). Pendulums.
>>
>> We could and did deal with very small time increments long before
>> anybody could peer at a cesium atom, though the "ancient" constraint
>> skews toward standards that are easily observable. But if you're
>> willing to use the king's foot as a standard of length, there are lots
>> of possibilities. Most standards of measurement are arbitrary, anyhow.
>
> And why would the time it takes for the planet to make a rotation be any
> more relevant than the time it takes to make a revolution?
>
Both are relevant because they're recurring events with a fixed period. I
believe the Maya also used the motion of the planet Venus, and/or Sirius.
--
Pete
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| Re: The Windows 95 chime was created on a Mac [message #356760 is a reply to message #356751] |
Thu, 16 November 2017 07:57 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On 15/11/2017 22:22, Peter Flass wrote:
> {snip}
>
>>
>> Cost is a major factor in deciding what goes into imbedded systems. I can
>> believe 8-bit, but I can't see that there'd be much of a cost saving today
>> by using a 4-bit processor. Cost usually favors the most wifely used parts.
>>
>
> Calculators used to use 4-bit processor chips. Good for decimal
> arithmetic. I do not know what they use nowadays.
>
Probably Pentiums, but don't try to use them for division ;-)
--
Pete
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| Re: The Windows 95 chime was created on a Mac [message #356762 is a reply to message #356756] |
Thu, 16 November 2017 07:26 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Thu, 16 Nov 2017 10:12:21 +0000
Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Andrew Swallow wrote:
>
>> Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>>
>>> And why would the time it takes for the planet to make a rotation be
>>> any more relevant than the time it takes to make a revolution?
>>
>> A day and a year are both time measures used by animals and plants.
>> Therefore farmers have to use them to know when to feed their animals
>> and sow the seeds.
>
> I know animals (plants too?) have circadian clocks so they do measure
> days, the clock needs exposure to the actual effects of a day to keep
> then synced.
>
> But do they have a 'circaannian' calendar measuring years? Or do they
> /only/ react to the actual effects of a season? e.g. lawns and pigeons
> can often be fooled by a mild autumn into thinking it's spring.
Some plants respond to day length by starting to flower when the
days shorten, when grown under artificial light flowering can often be
induced or postponed indefinitely by adjusting the 'day' length.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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| Re: The Windows 95 chime was created on a Mac [message #356763 is a reply to message #356747] |
Thu, 16 November 2017 07:21 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Wed, 15 Nov 2017 19:43:17 -0700
Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote:
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>
>> On Wed, 15 Nov 2017 05:13:58 GMT
>> usenet@only.tnx (Questor) wrote:
>>
>>> What other regular, periodic, natural event would you suggest ancient
>>> mankind have used to mark and measure time? They didn't know about
>>> cesium atoms.
>>
>> Heartbeats and breaths have both been used.
>
> Regular?
Somewhat over short periods - they're only useful for measuring
short durations with low accuracy, a bit like thumbs and arms are useful
for measuring lengths.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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| Re: The Windows 95 chime was created on a Mac [message #356764 is a reply to message #356743] |
Thu, 16 November 2017 08:22 |
scott
Messages: 4237
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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mausg@mail.com writes:
> On 2017-11-15, Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> wrote:
>> On 11/14/2017 11:13 PM, Questor wrote:
>>> On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 21:12:55 -0600, Osmium <r124c4u102@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>>> The notion that hardware design should be related in any way whatsoever
>>>> to the time it takes the earth to revolve around the sun makes me sick
>>>> to my stomach.
>>>
>>> What other regular, periodic, natural event would you suggest ancient mankind
>>> have used to mark and measure time? They didn't know about cesium atoms.
>>>
>> Days, which could be subdivided by sundials, water clocks,
>> hourglasses, etc. If desired, a "standard" day (e.g. at equinox) could
>> be used, with any arbitrary number of subdivisions (just as seconds
>> are an arbitrary subdivision). Pendulums.
>>
>> We could and did deal with very small time increments long before
>> anybody could peer at a cesium atom, though the "ancient" constraint
>> skews toward standards that are easily observable. But if you're
>> willing to use the king's foot as a standard of length, there are lots
>> of possibilities. Most standards of measurement are arbitrary, anyhow.
>
>
> Its kinda nice to remember ones that depended on something `real', as
> in inch, foot, pace, acre (what a plough team could plough in a day)(
> or a different definition, how much land that would keep a cow). I
> never got there, but there is a town in scotland that has examples of
> common length chiseled on the walls of its market place. I wonder
> where the Sumerians got the idea of dividing time into sixtyieths.
Perhaps because 60 is evenly divisible by 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10 and 12?
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| Re: The Windows 95 chime was created on a Mac [message #356766 is a reply to message #356756] |
Thu, 16 November 2017 08:26 |
mausg
Messages: 2483
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2017-11-16, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Andrew Swallow wrote:
>
>> Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>>
>>> And why would the time it takes for the planet to make a rotation be any
>>> more relevant than the time it takes to make a revolution?
>>
>> A day and a year are both time measures used by animals and plants.
>> Therefore farmers have to use them to know when to feed their animals
>> and sow the seeds.
>
> I know animals (plants too?) have circadian clocks so they do measure
> days, the clock needs exposure to the actual effects of a day to keep
> then synced.
>
> But do they have a 'circaannian' calendar measuring years? Or do they
> /only/ react to the actual effects of a season? e.g. lawns and pigeons
> can often be fooled by a mild autumn into thinking it's spring.
>
gets really odd when you realize that tho=is works down to animals
that _never_ see the Sun, but must be affected by tides.
--
greymaus.ireland.ie
Just_Another_Grumpy_Old_Man
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| Re: The Windows 95 chime was created on a Mac [message #356767 is a reply to message #356762] |
Thu, 16 November 2017 08:28 |
mausg
Messages: 2483
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2017-11-16, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Nov 2017 10:12:21 +0000
> Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>
>> Andrew Swallow wrote:
>>
>>> Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>>>
>>>> And why would the time it takes for the planet to make a rotation be
>>>> any more relevant than the time it takes to make a revolution?
>>>
>>> A day and a year are both time measures used by animals and plants.
>>> Therefore farmers have to use them to know when to feed their animals
>>> and sow the seeds.
>>
>> I know animals (plants too?) have circadian clocks so they do measure
>> days, the clock needs exposure to the actual effects of a day to keep
>> then synced.
>>
>> But do they have a 'circaannian' calendar measuring years? Or do they
>> /only/ react to the actual effects of a season? e.g. lawns and pigeons
>> can often be fooled by a mild autumn into thinking it's spring.
>
> Some plants respond to day length by starting to flower when the
> days shorten, when grown under artificial light flowering can often be
> induced or postponed indefinitely by adjusting the 'day' length.
>
Specially when grown in those `Japanese' type bunkers, where more
and more vegetables are now grown.
--
greymaus.ireland.ie
Just_Another_Grumpy_Old_Man
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| Re: The Windows 95 chime was created on a Mac [message #356769 is a reply to message #356752] |
Thu, 16 November 2017 08:39 |
Quadibloc
Messages: 4399
Registered: June 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 12:15:12 AM UTC-7, Andrew Swallow wrote:
> A day and a year are both time measures used by animals and plants.
> Therefore farmers have to use them to know when to feed their animals
> and sow the seeds.
I suppose the question isn't why we use the calendar and the clock that we do
in daily life, but why computers are geared to them.
Naturally, the SI second is also derived from them, but why shouldn't computers
just deal with, say, units of 2^n seconds for varying values of n?
Now, I think that an answer can be given. As just one example, timestamps on
files ought to relate to the time and date the people using computers use in
real life, so that when they look at a timestamp on a file, they can say, "oh,
yes, I downloaded this last Wednesday".
John Savard
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| Re: The Windows 95 chime was created on a Mac [message #356770 is a reply to message #356748] |
Thu, 16 November 2017 08:43 |
Quadibloc
Messages: 4399
Registered: June 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 7:44:52 PM UTC-7, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
> And why would the time it takes for the planet to make a rotation be any
> more relevant than the time it takes to make a revolution?
You should perhaps pay a visit to sci.astro.amateur.
There is a fellow there who rails against the tendency of astronomers to refer
to the period taken by the Earth for one rotation as being 23 hours, 56
minutes, and 4 seconds - as opposed to 24 hours.
I try to explain that this is done because the Earth's yearly revolution around
the Sun is at a varying speed, in an elliptical path, with a plane that differs
from that of the Earth's equator - leading to the "Equation of Time" - and so
the natural solar day is not of uniform length, but until the development of
atomic clocks, the apparent motion of the stars in the sky was more regular
than the time from any clock we could build.
John Savard
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| Re: The Windows 95 chime was created on a Mac [message #356771 is a reply to message #356720] |
Thu, 16 November 2017 08:57 |
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Originally posted by: JimP
On Wed, 15 Nov 2017 05:13:58 GMT, usenet@only.tnx (Questor) wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 21:12:55 -0600, Osmium <r124c4u102@comcast.net> wrote:
>> On 11/13/2017 8:46 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>> On 2017-11-13, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The problem with 32Bit (any OS) will show in about 21 years (Y2K38
>>>> bug). If course by then it's not too likely anyone still runs 32Bit
>>>> software. Like today almost no one runs 16Bit or even 8Bit on productive
>>>> systems.
>>>>
>>>> Of course we love nostalgia (wouldn't otherwise read and write here) we
>>>> might have old 16Bit or 8Bit hardware, or emulate that.
>>> I still build MS-DOS and Win16 versions of my stuff, although it's
>>> mostly because it'd be more trouble to remove the routines from my
>>> system. As for the 2038 problem, it's conceivable that you could
>>> define time_t as 64-bit even on 32-bit systems...
>>
>> The notion that hardware design should be related in any way whatsoever
>> to the time it takes the earth to revolve around the sun makes me sick
>> to my stomach.
>
> What other regular, periodic, natural event would you suggest ancient mankind
> have used to mark and measure time? They didn't know about cesium atoms.
Water clocks of various simple or complexity. Stone circles of various
types.
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| Re: The Windows 95 chime was created on a Mac [message #356773 is a reply to message #356758] |
Thu, 16 November 2017 09:33 |
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Originally posted by: Gareth's Downstairs Computer
On 16/11/2017 12:57, Peter Flass wrote:
> Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote:
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>>
>>> On Wed, 15 Nov 2017 05:13:58 GMT
>>> usenet@only.tnx (Questor) wrote:
>>>
>>>> What other regular, periodic, natural event would you suggest ancient
>>>> mankind have used to mark and measure time? They didn't know about
>>>> cesium atoms.
>>>
>>> Heartbeats and breaths have both been used.
>>
>> Regular?
>>
>
> In one of his famous experiments Galileo timed, (IIRC) the period of a
> pendulum using his pulse.
>
> Let's hope that as he began seeing the results he didn't get too excited.
>
With my latest amateur horologist's hat on, pendulums are notoriously
inaccurate, temperature sensitivity is well known; atmospheric pressure
sensitivity less well known, and circular error almost completely
unknown about.
The derivation for the period of a pendulum is for small angles where
sine(theta) equals theta in radians, but for such small angles, you
would not be able to perceive any motion at all!
The pendulum therefore moves in a circular path and only keeps good time
if the magnitude of theoscillation is constant.
The books by Philip Woodward are recommended, as well as any treatise
on the Shortt Clock.
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