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Bmp2DHR General DHGR Demo available for download [message #265368] Wed, 27 August 2014 08:40 Go to next message
Bill Buckels is currently offline  Bill Buckels
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Download it here:

http://www.appleoldies.ca/cc65/programs/dhgr/generaldemo.zip

I am wondering if this is something the Apple II Community wants to
pursue... this is a demo of a cross-section of the DHGR images I have been
processing with Bmp2DHR. Some good, bad,ugly.

To slow down or speed-up the slideshow use the numeric keys. 0 will wait for
keypresses.

But since I am getting no feedback I haven't updated the utility on-line
etc. In no rush to do so. I also haven't updated my cc65 stuff for awhile. I
don't hear much about that either.

If nobody is interested then that's fine.

This seems a little like Harry Potter's fields, so I am wondering if anyone
does anything with this besides me and Sheldon Simms.

If that's the case then who are we advancing this for? I'm having more fun
using this than writing about it... or uploading it for anyone else.

David Shmidt, I know it sounds dumb... but seriously. Is there anyone left
who is going to work with DHGR graphics?

Bill
Re: Bmp2DHR General DHGR Demo available for download [message #265373 is a reply to message #265368] Wed, 27 August 2014 09:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Schmidt is currently offline  David Schmidt
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On 8/27/2014 8:40 AM, Bill Buckels wrote:
> David Shmidt, I know it sounds dumb... but seriously. Is there anyone left
> who is going to work with DHGR graphics?

I've said what I have to say on the subject. I have only this to add.
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/061/297/nic kcage.jpeg
Re: Bmp2DHR General DHGR Demo available for download [message #265376 is a reply to message #265368] Wed, 27 August 2014 11:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anton Treuenfels is currently offline  Anton Treuenfels
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"Bill Buckels" <bbuckels@mts.net> wrote in message
news:ltkjkj$u7q$1@speranza.aioe.org...
>
> This seems a little like Harry Potter's fields

Ouch! :-)

- Anton Treuenfels
Re: Bmp2DHR General DHGR Demo available for download [message #265379 is a reply to message #265373] Wed, 27 August 2014 11:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
STYNX is currently offline  STYNX
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On Wednesday, August 27, 2014 3:56:32 PM UTC+2, schmidtd wrote:
> I've said what I have to say on the subject. I have only this to add.

I don't know what that means, but i like the results Bill has produced. Sadly i cannot split myself into 2 or more pieces to do all the stuff i want to do. Currently i have too much to do already and stupidly hope that christmas vacation will give me some more time ;-)

-Jonas
Re: Bmp2DHR General DHGR Demo available for download [message #265391 is a reply to message #265368] Wed, 27 August 2014 12:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
olivier.zardini is currently offline  olivier.zardini
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Le mercredi 27 août 2014 14:40:56 UTC+2, Bill Buckels a écrit :
> Is there anyone left who is going to work with DHGR graphics?

You work for future generations, in several years from now. Don't expect any return soon.

BTW where is the interest to TAG all pictures with a big Bmp2DHR ?

What is nice with Error Diffusion pictures is they look gorgeous if you are watching them from the neighbour's house... Sadly, at 15 inches of the screen, 160*200 pictures look like sometimes like Impressionist paints. Full of color but a little bit too grainy.

Olivier
Re: Bmp2DHR General DHGR Demo available for download [message #265392 is a reply to message #265379] Wed, 27 August 2014 12:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Schmidt is currently offline  David Schmidt
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On 8/27/2014 11:51 AM, STYNX wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 27, 2014 3:56:32 PM UTC+2, schmidtd wrote:
>> I've said what I have to say on the subject. I have only this to add.
>> http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/061/297/nic kcage.jpeg

> I don't know what that means [...]

It's an internet meme:
http://knowyourmeme.com/photos/61297-your-argument-is-invali d

It simply means I think Bill's restricting access to something solely
based on popularity (or lack thereof) is nonsensical. Just because mass
support isn't materializing today doesn't mean no one will ever be
interested. It's the same advice I gave Harry Potter when he was
lamenting the fate of Fields. Do what you love. Who cares what anyone
else thinks?

I simply find it bewildering that someone like Bill who is so prolific,
so skilled, and so free with absolutely everything else he does for the
community would suddenly take this petulant stance (sorry, Bill).

Just think of how this will look a year or six from now. Some kid picks
up a GS at a garage sale, has Schmenk-like intelligence with regard to
graphics, and starts exploring DHGR. She looks on comp.sys.apple2.* for
DHGR stuff - and finds Bill's posts: "Does anyone care? No? Ok then!
No DHGR for you!" "But wait!" she pleads. "I care! Bill - come back!"
But Bill has taken his code and gone fishing. He dangled it in front
of her, but then snapped it away. It's just sad.
Re: Bmp2DHR General DHGR Demo available for download [message #265394 is a reply to message #265368] Wed, 27 August 2014 13:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
STYNX is currently offline  STYNX
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On Wednesday, August 27, 2014 2:40:56 PM UTC+2, Bill Buckels wrote:
> ... but seriously. Is there anyone left who is going to work with DHGR graphics?
>
> Bill

The demos you have uploaded are perfectly usable on retro-meetings. I have one of these meetings from 12.09-14.09. SHR, DHGR and DLGR are nice things that get attention from folks not into Apple II-stuff (until now). Imagine your demos running on e IIgs, IIe and Iic there for 80-100 computer freaks to see.

I can understand your thoughts about the way people say there like or don't like something. Getting approval is very rare whereas getting rejection is somewhat more common but the most common 'reaction' is the lack of response ;-)

As a programmer i like to get bug reports and 'bad reviews' because this means people have used my programs and found these things. If none says anything it could mean the software is not in use or it works flawlessly.

Anyways, i hope you keep up your work with cc65. I know of at least 1 person from Germany who is very interested in your demos. He uses them in a "workshop" kinda way to get familiar with the Apple II.

-Jonas
Re: Bmp2DHR General DHGR Demo available for download [message #265396 is a reply to message #265368] Wed, 27 August 2014 13:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kevin is currently offline  Kevin
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On Wednesday, August 27, 2014 7:40:56 AM UTC-5, Bill Buckels wrote:
> Download it here:
>
>
>
> http://www.appleoldies.ca/cc65/programs/dhgr/generaldemo.zip
>
>
>
> I am wondering if this is something the Apple II Community wants to
>
> pursue... this is a demo of a cross-section of the DHGR images I have been
>
> processing with Bmp2DHR. Some good, bad,ugly.
>
>
>
> To slow down or speed-up the slideshow use the numeric keys. 0 will wait for
>
> keypresses.
>
>
>
> But since I am getting no feedback I haven't updated the utility on-line
>
> etc. In no rush to do so. I also haven't updated my cc65 stuff for awhile. I
>
> don't hear much about that either.
>
>
>
> If nobody is interested then that's fine.
>
>
>
> This seems a little like Harry Potter's fields, so I am wondering if anyone
>
> does anything with this besides me and Sheldon Simms.
>
>
>
> If that's the case then who are we advancing this for? I'm having more fun
>
> using this than writing about it... or uploading it for anyone else.
>
>
>
> David Shmidt, I know it sounds dumb... but seriously. Is there anyone left
>
> who is going to work with DHGR graphics?
>
>
>
> Bill

Im interested, but always swamped tween life and work to do much with DHGR at this moment, though I am constantly fiddling around with it making images to see what kind of "quality" image I can get out of an apple II
Re: Bmp2DHR General DHGR Demo available for download [message #265420 is a reply to message #265391] Wed, 27 August 2014 18:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Buckels is currently offline  Bill Buckels
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<olivier.zardini@itn-group.eu> wrote:

> BTW where is the interest to TAG all pictures with a big Bmp2DHR ?

This is done using the overlay feature of this converter. It is an exercise
for the reader to produce his own tagged or untagged images. Also it is an
exercise for the reader to choose whether they will use any of the 8
error-diffusion dithers provided, or one of the 3 cross-hatches provided or
if they will simply produce a pixel by pixel verbatim rendering.

It very much interests me to follow the tradition of the Apple II image
producers like PC Paradies or Pixel Joint when they attached their logo to
their images. I consider what I produced here of better quality and also it
makes more sense to sign a demo with the program or programmer's name that
produced the imgae than some company.

> Sadly, at 15 inches of the screen, 160*200 pictures look like sometimes
> like Impressionist paints. Full of color but a little bit too grainy.

The IIgs is very coarse as well. By my standards I was already working with
32,768 true-color images in RGB in 1989 and the following year in 16.7
million colors first with the Everex VGA and then with the pre-release
versions of the ATI Wonder XL.

DHGR as an expression medium is fasconating despite its large pixel size.
These diffused images are Art today... but not grainy when viewed on my RGB
monitor on my Apple IIe. Just gigass beautiful pixels:)

I think Olivier beauty is sometimes just our moods and not what we really
see which is the point in exploring pyschovisual.

These are not merely dithers but dithers with options liek what some of the
other guys were doing around the time. Atkinson is what Apple did and in my
opinion was very poor. The worst.

Bill
Re: Bmp2DHR General DHGR Demo available for download [message #265421 is a reply to message #265379] Wed, 27 August 2014 19:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Buckels is currently offline  Bill Buckels
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"STYNX" <Jonas.Groenhagen@gmx.de> wrote:
> I don't know what that means, but i like the results Bill has produced.

The best part is that this converter will take a 320 x 200 bmp output by
Simplify and produce a dithered DHGR file from the same bmp that the M2S
converter accepts as input. In other words, you now have SHR and DHGR output
capabiilities in Simplifly.

> Sadly i cannot split myself into 2 or more pieces to do all the stuff i
> want to do. Currently i have too much to do already and stupidly hope that
> christmas vacation will give me some more time ;-)

My wish is that someday I can clone myself into two or more parts but I
haven't been able to find the algorithm... yet.

Bill
Re: Bmp2DHR General DHGR Demo available for download [message #265422 is a reply to message #265396] Wed, 27 August 2014 19:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Buckels is currently offline  Bill Buckels
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"osgeld" <kevin@hackaday.com> wrote:

> Im interested, but always swamped tween life and work to do much with DHGR
> at this moment, though I am constantly fiddling around with it making
> images to see what kind of "quality" image I can get out of an apple II

This converter also accepts GIMP palettes *but* your ghetto converter used a
really crappy conversion palette (AppleWin) for LGR... The Wikipedia palette
works the best.

Bill
Re: Bmp2DHR General DHGR Demo available for download [message #265427 is a reply to message #265391] Wed, 27 August 2014 20:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Buckels is currently offline  Bill Buckels
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<olivier.zardini@itn-group.eu> wrote:
>160*200 pictures

These are DHGR pictures *NOT* SHR pictures. They are only 140 x 192 and have
a fixed palette of only the 15 lo-res colors. Did you take a look? Can you
do better?

Bill
Re: Bmp2DHR General DHGR Demo available for download [message #265431 is a reply to message #265368] Wed, 27 August 2014 21:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
datawiz is currently offline  datawiz
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I've been enjoying your work, Bill, and it is very much appreciated -- albeit silently in most cases. I'm sure there are others so please, keep on going as far as you have interest and there will be those of us who have an interest in looking at it and learning from it, now and in the future.

That being said, you've sparked an interest in me to investigate the Apple 64k RGB/Video-7 RGB card's 16 color 160x196 special RGB mode. I don't own one yet, but I guess some of the emulators may support it. Have you done any work with this yet? I'd love to read some more technical detail on it, as anything I've seen written doesn't go into it all that much.

It would seem to me to be a really interesting and novel way to utilize the IIe, especially if someone wanted to port games over to the platform-- graphics would be easier to map over, and the animation/game code would be a lot more straightforward, if I understand it correctly.

Of course, there's the challenge of the fact that these cards are a bit scarce, as well as the monitors to use them with, which takes a small general audience of interested Apple II owners to an even smaller pool of Apple IIe owners with this specific card.

This might also present an opportunity to create a new hardware spin of the Apple 64k RGB/Video-7 RGB card with touches like output to VGA/DVI/HDMI, ability to upload alternative character sets and toggle them on/off from code running on the apple, programmable color palette that can be set/toggled from apple code, RAM beyond 64k with some sort of fast/direct access from the video card's firmware, potentially even support for sprites?

It would seem to me that having a card like that, plus a Mockingboard (or even better: a respin/updated version of a Mockingboard) would make a VERY interesting and fun platform for new and old coders alike, perhaps even bring some retro coders in from other platforms to see how far they could go with it.

It's still and Apple II at its heart and remains backwards compatible, but has some bolt ons that help push it past where it was.

The question is, how feasible is this? Could a new Carte Blanche provide the basis for this kind of video card? Would anyone be interested in creating something like this, and an updated sound card? I'd love to hear from folks, if so, and I'd be interested in helping any way I can.

Until then, I'll play around in an emulator until I hunt down a 64k RGB card and a monitor that it will work with.

And Bill, if you feel properly compelled to document this mode, you'll at least have one incredibly interested reader.

Rich
Re: Bmp2DHR General DHGR Demo available for download [message #265440 is a reply to message #265373] Thu, 28 August 2014 00:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Buckels is currently offline  Bill Buckels
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"David Schmidt" <schmidtd@my-deja.com> wrote:
> I've said what I have to say on the subject. I have only this to add.
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/061/297/nic kcage.jpeg

And to that I say:
http://www.appleoldies.ca/cc65/docs/dhgr/MyHairIsABirdDHGR.p df

Bill
Re: Bmp2DHR General DHGR Demo available for download [message #265441 is a reply to message #265420] Thu, 28 August 2014 01:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Buckels is currently offline  Bill Buckels
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"Bill Buckels" <bbuckels@mts.net> wrote:
>> BTW where is the interest to TAG all pictures with a big Bmp2DHR ?
> This is done using the overlay feature of this converter. It is an exercise
> for the reader to produce his own tagged or untagged images.

This explains how the overlay feature is used:

http://www.appleoldies.ca/cc65/docs/dhgr/MyHairIsABirdDHGR.p df

Bill
Re: Bmp2DHR General DHGR Demo available for download [message #265451 is a reply to message #265441] Thu, 28 August 2014 07:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
olivier.zardini is currently offline  olivier.zardini
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Le jeudi 28 août 2014 07:00:49 UTC+2, Bill Buckels a écrit :

> These are DHGR pictures *NOT* SHR pictures. They are only 140 x 192 and
> have a fixed palette of only the 15 lo-res colors. Did you take a look?
> Can you do better?

160*200 or 140*192, that does not change the fact that the pixel are big & rectangle and the effect of dithering is de facto limited.

BTW, why only use 15 colors and not the 16 ?

I guess any modern graphic utility on Windows is capable, based on a fixed palette, to convert a 140*192 256 colors picture into a 140*192 16 colors pictures applying dithering.

Could you provide also your source pictures to see what Paint Shop Pro is doing ?

> This explains how the overlay feature is used:
> http://www.appleoldies.ca/cc65/docs/dhgr/MyHairIsABirdDHGR.p df
>
> Overlaying a dithered and rendered file with discrete pixel to pixel text from a
> separate image (as shown above) is the best way to present clear and readable
> titling on the Apple II DHGR display' coarse resolution of 160 x 192.

Hum, I though it was 140*192... I'm lost now. :-)

Olivier
Re: Bmp2DHR General DHGR Demo available for download [message #265452 is a reply to message #265440] Thu, 28 August 2014 08:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Schmidt is currently offline  David Schmidt
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On 8/28/2014 12:33 AM, Bill Buckels wrote:
> "David Schmidt" <schmidtd@my-deja.com> wrote:
>> I've said what I have to say on the subject. I have only this to add.
> http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/061/297/nic kcage.jpeg
>
> And to that I say:
> http://www.appleoldies.ca/cc65/docs/dhgr/MyHairIsABirdDHGR.p df

Bravo, my fisherman friend. Bravo.
Re: Bmp2DHR General DHGR Demo available for download [message #265457 is a reply to message #265452] Thu, 28 August 2014 08:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Buckels is currently offline  Bill Buckels
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"David Schmidt" <schmidtd@my-deja.com> wrote:
>Bravo, my fisherman friend. Bravo.

The use case is poorly worded, distracted, and editorial. The layout of the
pdf is draft. So your feeling is that any documentation is better than none
at all:) Tom De Marco in PeopleWare had a similar perspective on the
Capability Maturity Model (CMM) and Chaos; paraphrased ... "Any process is
better than none at all."

My first posture was that nobody will use any of this. The Harry Potter
position is deliberate of course. In DeMarco's book the girl who brought
coffee to the team was the most important of the Development Team's members.
In my work, the Windows User is the most important of my Virtual Team's
members.

Whether or not you wanted to read the tedious age-old lament of the
ShareWare/FreeWare author, it proves that there is no girl standing with
coffee in hand when it comes to any of this... my imaginary Windows User
does not exist. 5 years ago when I wote my BMPA2FC converter it was for the
young son of an Apple II enthusiast. My work will be waiting for his
grandson, but odds are that his grandson will have a better ipad and will
not care about Apple II's or DHGR.

The documentation for all of this will be rough but usable. And better than
what Apple Computer would have given any of us. And will be provided to the
sound of one hand clapping.

There was never really a question of whether this source code would be put
online. My budget for my websites far exceeds my ability to maintain them,
so they are a rat's nest of files without pages (like doctors without
borders). This stuff needs to go someplace.

Bill
Re: Bmp2DHR General DHGR Demo available for download [message #265458 is a reply to message #265451] Thu, 28 August 2014 09:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Buckels is currently offline  Bill Buckels
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Re: Bmp2DHR General DHGR Demo available for download [message #265486 is a reply to message #265458] Thu, 28 August 2014 11:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
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In article <ltnc6q$hob$1@speranza.aioe.org>,
Bill Buckels <bbuckels@mts.net> wrote:
> <olivier.zardini@itn-group.eu> wrote:
>> BTW, why only use 15 colors and not the 16 ?
>
> Because the default conversion palette is for the Apple IIe.
>
> "There are 16 colors available for use in this mode (actually 15 in most
> cases, since the two shades of gray are identical in brightness on original
> Apple hardware, except on the Apple IIgs). Note that six of the colors are
> identical to the colors available in High-Resolution (Hi-Res) mode."

I was always under the impression that Lo-Res colors 5 & 10 were the same.
I was testing my RGB-to-component converter on another TV last night,
though, and noticed that 5 was a fair bit darker than 10.

I'd expect that composite output from the IIGS would be identical to what
you'd get from the 8-bit IIs, under at least some Control Panel settings.
What possessed Apple to make the RGB rendering different?

_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( http://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?
Re: Bmp2DHR General DHGR Demo available for download [message #265489 is a reply to message #265486] Thu, 28 August 2014 12:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Buckels is currently offline  Bill Buckels
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"Scott Alfter" <scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us> wrote:
>I was always under the impression that Lo-Res colors 5 & 10 were the same.

I don't know what to believe which is why when I wrote this converter I
included the Wikipedia Palette, Sheldon Simm's palette from todhr, both
AppleWin Palettes (the newer one is also used by the ghetto converter), the
CiderPress Viewer Palette, the Kegs32 palette, and for good measure I also
included stock mapping from the Windows 3.1 16 color BMP and the Windows
XP/7 16 color Bmp, the standard VGA bios 16 color palette, and the Z-Soft
PCX version of the 16 color VGA palette. I stopped short of including the
kitchen sink. Of all these palettes, only Wikipedia and Sheldon's can be
considered as psycho-visually correct for color balancing.

I decided to be majorative and use the 15 color palette for the IIe knowing
full well that by eliminating one of 2 greys the other colors would still
map correctly, and people with a IIgs would still get a balanced image. This
seems to be common sense. However, if people with a IIgs use Sheldon's
palette it will result in dark artifacts on IIe's that don't have the
lighter grey.

Sheldon's renderings also suffer from clipping of errors and don't need any
help to get darker.

If you read the Wikipedia article with tongue-in-cheek it is like a shoe
salesman trying to sell you their theory based on a selected set of
criteria. But if you take it seriously like I did and actually write the
code, the 15 color model is the best. If you read a number of detailed
articles on dithering you will see as I did that at a certain point each one
falls apart based on cumulative error and color distance when you consider
only 16 colors.

I intervened by cancelling dithering when I hit a pure color area on some
variations of dithering and on some less-complex images the posterization
can run back to an ega-like cartoonish appearance, so unless an arbitray
palette is built for a a single area, this is where the whole notion of
dithering can break.

Back to perception, the best palette for the IIe is Wikipedia, and the best
one if that doesn't work is Sheldon's.

> I was testing my RGB-to-component converter on another TV last night,
> though, and noticed that 5 was a fair bit darker than 10.

I get the same sharpening on my RGB monitor on my IIe. But I think I am
right for composite.

> I'd expect that composite output from the IIGS would be identical to what
> you'd get from the 8-bit IIs, under at least some Control Panel settings.
> What possessed Apple to make the RGB rendering different?

That question and many other similar questions seem to have come forward
many times recently. I think the answer is that their shoe salesmen said one
thing and delivered something else, but if I strip-off that mask, they
needed to keep production costs down in order to stay in business so it was
for the greater good. At least in their minds.

Engineering in any business starts-off with a spec that changes when
production control tries to buy the parts, and obtains authorized
substitution. Compromising the implementation within allowable tolerances
does not always result in revised user documentation. In hardware, 3rd party
developers are generally the last to know.

This attitude of any computer company that they have the best standards is a
crock from my experience. We have never been guaranteed that a company like
Apple or IBM has better quality, and higher standards than oem and
third-party vendors. What we are guaranteed is that a company like Apple or
IBM will not be worse than the worst oem and third-party vendors. Not very
encouraging.

So your guess as to why Apple was possesed to make RGB rendering different
probably had both parts procurement and look-and-feel considerations IIRC
'cause macophiles back in the day were always going on and on about
"pleasing colors" and other such, and on the IBM side I was already matching
dithers for printing with screen calibration and images for the very compnay
that printed all the color standard for Pantone. It was about money, but we
programmers never got rich here.

I suspect most programmers didn't:)

Bill
Re: Bmp2DHR General DHGR Demo available for download [message #265502 is a reply to message #265489] Thu, 28 August 2014 13:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Buckels is currently offline  Bill Buckels
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"Bill Buckels" <bbuckels@mts.net> wrote:

> I decided to be majorative and use the 15 color palette for the IIe knowing
> full well that by eliminating one of 2 greys the other colors would still
> map correctly, and people with a IIgs would still get a balanced image.

By mapping to only 1 grey, lighter greys will map to colors instead.

> However, if people with a IIgs use Sheldon's palette it will result in dark
> artifacts on IIe's that don't have the lighter grey.

1. On a IIgs Sheldon's palette will work great! Do not go by emulator
colors. They are not balanced properly for the Apple Display.

2. There is one palette that I included in the gimp and did not include
properly in PaintShop Pro, and that is my own palette from when I was just
starting working with double lo-res. It's more or less as bad as any
emulator palette.

> Sheldon's renderings also suffer from clipping of errors and don't need any
> help to get darker.

This is simply based of my bench-check of how his code works. His closest
color is somewhat different than mine as well. I am using double precision
floating point and converting or clipping to integers at the end of my
process based on several scaling factors. As it turns-out the 640 x 480
scaling to 140 x 192 survives better than 1 to 1 scaling.

> If you read the Wikipedia article with tongue-in-cheek it is like a shoe
> salesman trying to sell you their theory...

My theories are the same of course, since I bought Wikipedia's shoes. I
also sneaked-in a black of 0,0,0 and a white of 255,255,255 even on the
AppleWin palette to render pure black and white as undithered colors. This
gets rid of too many spotty black and white areas on images with large
chuncks of black and white and cleans-up dithers. It breaks-down when a
slightly off-white area creates a miniscule error that keeps accumulating.

It is valid to clip these tiny areas like some of the other guys do. My
rationale is that you accumulate the error until it is actually time to
write the pixel to disk. Then you clip the draned thing. If the error has
become too negative the darkness becomes 0. If the area has become wildly
bright, then the pixel is clipped at 255. This breaks down since I am not
adjusting for gamma correction, although I match on advanced luma. Gamma
Correction however is based on monitors.

So if your gamma needs to be adjusted during a dither, you need to track
your cumulative gamma on the way-in, tracxk your gama loss or gain for the
entire area and then adjust your gamma at the end of rendering to make sure
that your gama scales to the proportional values of the dither.

Since dither is redistribution of error the number of calculations for gamma
is far too great for me to bother with. So I simply use linear scaling for
the error and apply it forward either one or two lines. One works best on a
tight resolution which is why Floyd-Steinberg is the best dithering.

The gamma on an RGB monitor and a composite monitor are totally different to
an LCD or a VGA is my understanding thus far. So when I read that it is
generally considered ok for some error to be lost during dithering I decided
to avoid as much error loss as I can, but to ignore gamma which says that
there will always be more darker colors in a dithered image that is darker
than in a dithered image that is lighter. So I also provided a filter which
upscales the rgb brightness linearly by a threshold percentage, since it is
beyond my guess what it takes to balance an overall image for one monitor or
another, and for one card or another. Upscaling this brings the darker
colors forward into the lighter range, so if this isn't extreme canbe quite
corrective. But can also clip. It's a crap-shoot!

When we used kodak RGB monitors with a Targa Board clone we used a grey
calibration strip, much like the idea behind a white balance for an analog
TV camera. Today everything is different, but we could actually write a
calibration print-out routine that a person could use to balance a composite
monitor. However your printer would need to be calibrated first:) I am more
confident in the Wikipedia article than in all this other rigamorole.

> Back to perception, the best palette for the IIe is Wikipedia, and the best
> one if that doesn't work is Sheldon's.

That's the short answer. Some great minds have looked at all of this and
reached no conclusions that they would put their names on, so all I know for
sure is that error in dithering is not elliptical but color perception is
which greatly affects analog but is forgiven when it comes to the tolerances
of electronic parts.

Bill
Re: Bmp2DHR General DHGR Demo available for download [message #265503 is a reply to message #265486] Thu, 28 August 2014 14:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Buckels is currently offline  Bill Buckels
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"Scott Alfter" <scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us> wrote:
> I was always under the impression that Lo-Res colors 5 & 10 were the same.
> I was testing my RGB-to-component converter on another TV last
> night,though, and noticed that 5 was a fair bit darker than 10.

Scott, I wrote quite a bit on this, so didn't want this to get this lost in
the rest of it. There is one important piece of testing of colors that might
be useful to you in this bmp2dhr utility.

You can convert using one palette and preview using another.

What this means is that you can see what images converted using Sheldon's 16
color Palette will look like displayed in the Wikipedia 15 color palette,
and vice versa. According to my theory Sheldon's palette is for the IIgs and
video that has 2 levels of grey and the Wikipedia Palette is for the IIe
without 2 grey levels. Since this utility will also accept a user defined
palette for either previewing or converting or both, it is possible for the
thresholds for conversion to differ from the rendering colors.

Since the output of this is in Apple II format as well as in bmp format you
also can load this up on a real apple II and see how they look.

If color theory is based on perception and images are created using LCD
perception but displayed using RGB or composite perception, it seems to make
sense that substituting a digital equivalent to the theoretical value would
result in the best value for displaying an image on an rgb montor, but that
using a rendering palette that shows the actual results would allow a color
match comparison on a target display.

Does that make sense to anyone else?

Bill
Re: Bmp2DHR General DHGR Demo available for download [message #265519 is a reply to message #265503] Thu, 28 August 2014 15:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
STYNX is currently offline  STYNX
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On Thursday, August 28, 2014 8:51:40 PM UTC+2, Bill Buckels wrote:
> Does that make sense to anyone else?
> Bill
Most of it ;-)

I have had done some tests for different monitors with the Apple //e
(a few months ago).
I used:
"Le Chat Mauve EVE" -> Apple //e RGB-Card
"Le Chat Mauve FELINE" -> Apple //e RGB-Card
Apple //e 64k digital -> Apple //e RGB-Card
Apple //e with VOC -> Apple IIgs, //e RGB-Card
no-name composite -> VGA converter
no-name composite -> HDMI converter
unmarked SONY composite -> RGB converter and amplifier

Monitors: several... i think at least 5 different manufacturers and some TFTs

Results (not scientific): Every card has slightly different colors :-P

The 'best' RGB result in my opinion was from the chat mauve FELINE card but it has died on me (some custom made chip also used in the //c RGB-converter) when i last tested it :-(.

The best composite image was displayed on a JVC universal input monitor (i could look up the model number ... later ;-P). It accepts RGB from about 14khz-66khz but is very bulky and extremely heavy. Several settings regarding white-level and color-temperature are possible with this monster. I should make some photos of the actual color displayed ... if i find the time ...

The HDMI- and VGA-converters produced a very unstable NTSC image with wrong and smeared colors.
The PAL-Image was (strangely) acceptable although the flickering of the blues and greens was unnerving.

The SONY converter was ... bad. it could not display anything from either the NTSC nor the PAL signal.

My personal result: stick with you old CC-TV or CC-Monitor to get the correct display :-D
To get a smooth image of the dithered DHGR graphics, set the CRT to slightly out of focus...
(might need some tinkering with CRT HV)

-Jonas
Re: Bmp2DHR General DHGR Demo available for download [message #265521 is a reply to message #265519] Thu, 28 August 2014 16:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Payton Byrd is currently offline  Payton Byrd
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May I suggest adding the Commodore 1701 monitor to your test regimen? There may never have been a better display ever made.
Re: Bmp2DHR General DHGR Demo available for download [message #265523 is a reply to message #265521] Thu, 28 August 2014 16:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Buckels is currently offline  Bill Buckels
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"Payton Byrd" <plbyrd@gmail.com> wrote:
> May I suggest adding the Commodore 1701 monitor to your test regimen?
> There may never have been a better display ever made.

I have a 1084 right here. How does that stack-up?

Bill
Re: Bmp2DHR General DHGR Demo available for download [message #265524 is a reply to message #265486] Thu, 28 August 2014 16:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jeff Blakeney is currently offline  Jeff Blakeney
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On 28/08/2014 11:30 AM, Scott Alfter wrote:
> I was always under the impression that Lo-Res colors 5 & 10 were the same.
> I was testing my RGB-to-component converter on another TV last night,
> though, and noticed that 5 was a fair bit darker than 10.

If I remember correctly, the only difference between the two greys is
that they use opposite bit patterns. They are both composed of
alternating bit patterns and one is 0101 and the other is 1010. So the
only real difference would be in how it affects the pixels next to it
because it can alter the one to the right or left of it with the "1" bit
that is on the edge.
Re: Bmp2DHR General DHGR Demo available for download [message #265551 is a reply to message #265523] Thu, 28 August 2014 23:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Buckels is currently offline  Bill Buckels
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"Bill Buckels" <bbuckels@mts.net> wrote:
> I have a 1084 right here. How does that stack-up?

The csa2 FAQ covers the pinout for a 1084:

http://apple2.org.za/gswv/a2zine/faqs/Csa2MONITOR.html

The FAQ also contains some important information on the IIgs, IIe, and
Double Hi-Res:

038- When I play old hires games on my GS the RGB monitor display does not
look as good as my old Amdek Color-1 connected to the II+. What's wrong?
Most hires displays look better on a composite color monitor, such as the
Amdek Color-1, than they do on the GS's RGB monitor. The difference is even
more striking for double-hires displays. (King's Quest and Air Heart look
much better on a Color-1 connected to a IIc+ than on an RGB monitor
connected to the GS.)

What's wrong is that the GS's display circuits do just a passable job of
translating hires and double-hires into RGB form.

x--- snip ---x

This says that the IIe is the standard, and the IIgs does its own thing:)
What it does not tell me is how the RGB card on my IIe stacks-up against the
RGB card on my IIgs.

Bill
Re: Bmp2DHR General DHGR Demo available for download [message #265556 is a reply to message #265551] Fri, 29 August 2014 08:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Payton Byrd is currently offline  Payton Byrd
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Given that the 1084 was intended for three different computers (64, 128 8-columns, and Amiga 500/2000), it stands to reason that Commodore spent significant time and effort optimizing the monitor for each scenario. Indeed, in my experience the 1084 provides an excellent display of each system, though for pure composite or luma/chroma video, the 1701 is considered the gold standard.
Re: Bmp2DHR General DHGR Demo available for download [message #265623 is a reply to message #265524] Fri, 29 August 2014 14:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
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In article <lto4rs$q22$1@dont-email.me>,
Jeff Blakeney <CUTjeffrey_blakeney@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> On 28/08/2014 11:30 AM, Scott Alfter wrote:
>> I was always under the impression that Lo-Res colors 5 & 10 were the same.
>> I was testing my RGB-to-component converter on another TV last night,
>> though, and noticed that 5 was a fair bit darker than 10.
>
> If I remember correctly, the only difference between the two greys is
> that they use opposite bit patterns. They are both composed of
> alternating bit patterns and one is 0101 and the other is 1010.

That's it. On a composite display, big blocks of the two will look the
same. On the RGB output from a IIGS, however, one is darker than the other.

Just tried KEGSWin...it mimics the latter behavior.

_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( http://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?
Re: Bmp2DHR General DHGR Demo available for download [message #265636 is a reply to message #265623] Fri, 29 August 2014 15:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Vladimir Ivanov

On Fri, 29 Aug 2014, Scott Alfter wrote:

> In article <lto4rs$q22$1@dont-email.me>,
> Jeff Blakeney <CUTjeffrey_blakeney@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>> On 28/08/2014 11:30 AM, Scott Alfter wrote:
>>> I was always under the impression that Lo-Res colors 5 & 10 were the same.
>>> I was testing my RGB-to-component converter on another TV last night,
>>> though, and noticed that 5 was a fair bit darker than 10.
>>
>> If I remember correctly, the only difference between the two greys is
>> that they use opposite bit patterns. They are both composed of
>> alternating bit patterns and one is 0101 and the other is 1010.
>
> That's it. On a composite display, big blocks of the two will look the
> same. On the RGB output from a IIGS, however, one is darker than the other.
>
> Just tried KEGSWin...it mimics the latter behavior.

The two grays are the same if they're the only color. When interacting
with neighboring "pixels" - they're not. Check out King's Quest castle how
they create nice artifacts even between themselves.

IIgs's output does non-linear processing of the bitstream, and perhaps
that's what makes the two slightly different. Again, surrounding pixels
might affect this.
Re: Bmp2DHR General DHGR Demo available for download [message #265781 is a reply to message #265368] Sat, 30 August 2014 22:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Buckels is currently offline  Bill Buckels
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"Bill Buckels" <bbuckels@mts.net> wrote:
> So this utility is restricted to conversion only, and it does not dither.
> Not yet anyway.

The new version dithers rabidly but is not yet online. The documentation
continues. These little documents are just side-bars... the User's Manual is
the main thing... and is also not yet online but here's one doc that should
tickle someone's interest:

http://www.appleoldies.ca/cc65/docs/dhgr/TomThumbDHGR.pdf

Bill
Re: Bmp2DHR General DHGR Demo available for download [message #265946 is a reply to message #265368] Mon, 01 September 2014 04:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Buckels is currently offline  Bill Buckels
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"Bill Buckels" <bbuckels@mts.net> wrote:
> David Shmidt, I know it sounds dumb... but seriously. Is there anyone left
> who is going to work with DHGR graphics?

In case there is, what I consider is the best DHGR converter on the planet
is now available:

http://www.appleoldies.ca/cc65/programs/dhgr/bmp2dhr.zip

Updated with dithering etc.

Documentation still being finished and more demos to follow, but this gives
you the source, and working executable.

Bill
Re: Bmp2DHR General DHGR Demo available for download [message #265987 is a reply to message #265421] Mon, 01 September 2014 10:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gids.rs is currently offline  gids.rs
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> My wish is that someday I can clone myself into two or more parts but I
> haven't been able to find the algorithm... yet.

> Bill


Why clone yourself? Just program your Apple II computer to think like you do then it will be able to do hundreds of times faster than even 2 of you can do. :)
Re: Bmp2DHR General DHGR Demo available for download [message #266029 is a reply to message #265987] Mon, 01 September 2014 14:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Buckels is currently offline  Bill Buckels
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<gids.rs@sasktel.net> wrote:
> Just program your Apple II computer to think like you do then it will be
> able to do hundreds of times faster than even 2 of you can do. :)

My Apple II already thinks like I do. That's why I get anything done at
all:) I might get more done if I thought like Steve Wozniak, but being only
average and MS-DOSsy I would think that somewhere in the neighborhood of
1000 or so clones might do it...

Bill
Re: Bmp2DHR General DHGR Demo available for download [message #266386 is a reply to message #265946] Wed, 03 September 2014 21:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Buckels is currently offline  Bill Buckels
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"Bill Buckels" <bbuckels@mts.net> wrote:
> what I consider is the best DHGR converter on the planet is now available:

http://www.appleoldies.ca/cc65/programs/dhgr/bmp2dhr.zip

> Updated with dithering etc.

So far its not just the best DHGR converter...

Preliminary tests indicate that the Floyd-Steinberg dithering in Bmp2DHR
does a far better job than the FS dithering in the GIMP 2.8.

Also Bmp2DHR supports 8 dithering algorithms and the GIMP has only FS.

The GIMP seems to do a much poorer job all around. Windows Paint's scaling
is superior to the GIMP's... even the 14 year old XP version. Exporting an
unaddorned BMP in the GIMP is a chore. It's still doable if you don't have
Windows and if you like messy interfaces with tool palettes scattered all
over the desktop.

I will be publishing a short case study showing the superior results of
using my dithering and plain old Windows Paint as opposed to what the GIMP
has to offer for DHGR conversion (i.e. palette matching, scaling)

I wonder if PhotoShop is also inferior. Since I am not going to buy it to
find out, and Windows Paint is free, PhotoShop is not on my radar.

I am also running some tests with Photo Demon. I like it better than the
GIMP so far. Preliminary results are promising. And the price is the same as
Windows Paint and the GIMP.

Bill
Re: Bmp2DHR General DHGR Demo available for download [message #266398 is a reply to message #266386] Thu, 04 September 2014 00:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mmphosis is currently offline  mmphosis
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Bill Buckels wrote:
> "Bill Buckels" <bbuckels@mts.net> wrote:
>> what I consider is the best DHGR converter on the planet is now available:
>
> http://www.appleoldies.ca/cc65/programs/dhgr/bmp2dhr.zip
>
>> Updated with dithering etc.
>
> So far its not just the best DHGR converter...
>
> Preliminary tests indicate that the Floyd-Steinberg dithering in Bmp2DHR
> does a far better job than the FS dithering in the GIMP 2.8.
>
> Also Bmp2DHR supports 8 dithering algorithms and the GIMP has only FS.
>
> The GIMP seems to do a much poorer job all around. Windows Paint's scaling
>
> is superior to the GIMP's... even the 14 year old XP version. Exporting an
>
> unaddorned BMP in the GIMP is a chore. It's still doable if you don't
> have
>
> Windows and if you like messy interfaces with tool palettes scattered all
> over the desktop.
>
> I will be publishing a short case study showing the superior results of
> using my dithering and plain old Windows Paint as opposed to what the GIMP
>
> has to offer for DHGR conversion (i.e. palette matching, scaling)
>
> I wonder if PhotoShop is also inferior. Since I am not going to buy it to
> find out, and Windows Paint is free, PhotoShop is not on my radar.
>
> I am also running some tests with Photo Demon. I like it better than the
> GIMP so far. Preliminary results are promising. And the price is the same
> as
> Windows Paint and the GIMP.
>
> Bill
>

hmm. My PC was free, and downloading and installing Ubuntu for it was free.
In order to run MSPAINT.EXE, I would need to order a retail copy of say
Microsoft Windows 7 Professional with SP1 (32 bit & 64 bit) for US$119.95
which is not free.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6P6WfEIWFvE/T5q7od1JfgI/AAAAAAAAS4 Q/XfQpWvNEuUs/s320/article-2136075-12CB797D000005DC-141_634x 444.jpeg
Re: Bmp2DHR General DHGR Demo available for download [message #266410 is a reply to message #266386] Thu, 04 September 2014 04:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bpiltz is currently offline  bpiltz
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On Wednesday, September 3, 2014 6:32:45 PM UTC-7, Bill Buckels wrote:
> "Bill Buckels" <bbuckels@mts.net> wrote:
>
>> what I consider is the best DHGR converter on the planet is now available:
>
>
>
> http://www.appleoldies.ca/cc65/programs/dhgr/bmp2dhr.zip
>
>
>
>> Updated with dithering etc.
>
Bill, I'm very, very impressed with your DHGR converter, and feel your description as "the best on the planet" is apt.

However, are you able to provide an MS-DOS compile of your binary executable? I recall that you used to do this with your other converters. It would be very much appreciated, as I still work in DOS a lot with ApplePC and other programs, so having a native DOS 16-bit (or 32-bit DGJPP) compile would be quite wonderful. Thanks.
Re: Bmp2DHR General DHGR Demo available for download [message #266477 is a reply to message #266398] Thu, 04 September 2014 14:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Buckels is currently offline  Bill Buckels
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"mmphosis" <mmphosis@macgui.com> wrote:
> hmm. My PC was free, and downloading and installing Ubuntu for it was
> free.

I paid for my PC, but Windows XP was free for me... I think I still have 17
licences that I haven't used if I could find them in that pile opf crap from
Microsoft.

So was Windows 7 free for both my laptops, but again I paid for my laptops.

Windows Paint is part of the Windows Desktop.

I traded Catfish for my Apple IIe and paid for my Apple IIgs. My Commodore
64's were free, but I paid for my Commodore 128. Regardless, for Windows
Users (the majority of desktops worldwide) Windows Paint is free.

> In order to run MSPAINT.EXE, I would need to order a retail copy of say
> Microsoft Windows 7 Professional with SP1 (32 bit & 64 bit) for US$119.95
> which is not free.

Or you could do what most people do and buy a PC with a Windows bundle. Or
become a Microsoft Partner or purchase an MSDN membership and try all the
new Windows stuff before the rest of the planet gets to see it.

Well the GIMP does have superior scaling to Windows Paint, because the GIMP
is pixel level and Windows Paint is by percentage. The best scaling of all
is in Bmp2DHR but images need to be prescaled to sizes that make sense to
Bmp2DHR.

But comparative testing will likely reveal other oddities besides the GIMP's
dirty and inadequate dithering. Their Floyd Steinberg implementation looks
like a kid took a black crayon and scribbled over colors that aren't within
the lines. Could this be poorly implemented GAMMA correction, a poor
understanding of diffused error clipping, or implementation of a color
distance algorithm that is not psychovisual, or all of the above?

I think so.

Have a look at the code and tell me why I got it right and the army of gnats
didn't...

Bill






..
Re: Bmp2DHR General DHGR Demo available for download [message #266500 is a reply to message #266477] Thu, 04 September 2014 15:11 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Payton Byrd is currently offline  Payton Byrd
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On Thursday, September 4, 2014 1:55:45 PM UTC-5, Bill Buckels wrote:

> Have a look at the code and tell me why I got it right and the army of gnats didn't...

Be careful! If you view the GPL code and then coincidentally have something similar in your code, the GPL Nazi's could claim ownership of your code.
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