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Eye of the Beholder for C64 ? [message #149588] Sat, 24 December 2005 04:20 Go to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Xanathar

X-No-Archive:yes

EOB 1 did work in EGA , even in CGA mode. In theory, the C64 could do
something similar to the EGA graphics
and something much better than the CGA mode.

Did anyone ever try to port this game? The MS DOS version works on rather
weak PCs, so the only
problem would be the number of disks?

I know there is Bloodwych for the C64, a somewhat similar game, but with
much simpler graphics.
Re: Eye of the Beholder for C64 ? [message #149590 is a reply to message #149588] Sat, 24 December 2005 04:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Damian  Caynes is currently offline  Damian Caynes
Messages: 295
Registered: February 2005
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Senior Member
Xanathar wrote:
> X-No-Archive:yes
>
> EOB 1 did work in EGA , even in CGA mode. In theory, the C64 could do
> something similar to the EGA graphics
> and something much better than the CGA mode.
>
> Did anyone ever try to port this game? The MS DOS version works on rather
> weak PCs, so the only
> problem would be the number of disks?
>
> I know there is Bloodwych for the C64, a somewhat similar game, but with
> much simpler graphics.

This post is some kind of joke, right?
Re: Eye of the Beholder for C64 ? [message #149617 is a reply to message #149590] Sat, 24 December 2005 12:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MagerValp is currently offline  MagerValp
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>>>> > "S" == Slartibartfast <idigital@gmail.com> writes:

X> EOB 1 did work in EGA , even in CGA mode. In theory, the C64 could
X> do something similar to the EGA graphics and something much better
X> than the CGA mode.

X> Did anyone ever try to port this game? The MS DOS version works on
X> rather weak PCs, so the only problem would be the number of disks?

X> I know there is Bloodwych for the C64, a somewhat similar game, but
X> with much simpler graphics.

S> This post is some kind of joke, right?

Why would it be? EotB is perfectly doable on the C64, albeit with
slightly cruder graphics and fewer animations. Still, better than the
CGA version as the OP says.

--
___ . . . . . + . . o
_|___|_ + . + . + . Per Olofsson, arkadspelare
o-o . . . o + MagerValp@cling.gu.se
- + + . http://www.cling.gu.se/~cl3polof/
Re: Eye of the Beholder for C64 ? [message #149635 is a reply to message #149617] Sat, 24 December 2005 15:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kiethl is currently offline  kiethl
Messages: 47
Registered: July 2003
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MagerValp wrote:
>>>> >> "S" == Slartibartfast <idigital@gmail.com> writes:
>
> X> EOB 1 did work in EGA , even in CGA mode. In theory, the C64 could
> X> do something similar to the EGA graphics and something much better
> X> than the CGA mode.
>
> X> Did anyone ever try to port this game? The MS DOS version works on
> X> rather weak PCs, so the only problem would be the number of disks?
>
> X> I know there is Bloodwych for the C64, a somewhat similar game, but
> X> with much simpler graphics.
>
> S> This post is some kind of joke, right?
>
> Why would it be? EotB is perfectly doable on the C64, albeit with
> slightly cruder graphics and fewer animations. Still, better than the
> CGA version as the OP says.
>
> someone here was working on a DUNGEONMASTER clone for the C64 a while back IIRC....I was working on a simular game for the C128.. I had a simple maze with E.O.B. type graphics ( just corridors though,no rooms ) that I could wander through.It looked pretty good ( just gray scale colors, i.e. BLACK,WHITE,LIGHT,MEDIUM and DARK GRAY) . Unfortunately I no longer have time to work on it,but IMHO E.O.B type games should be easily doable.
keith
Re: Eye of the Beholder for C64 ? [message #149636 is a reply to message #149635] Sat, 24 December 2005 15:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kiethl is currently offline  kiethl
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echh,last post looks odd,so here it is again
someone here was working on a DUNGEONMASTER clone for the C64 a while
back IIRC....I was working on a simular game for the C128.. I had a
simple maze with E.O.B. type graphics ( just corridors though,no rooms
) that I could wander through.It looked pretty good ( just gray scale
colors, i.e. BLACK,WHITE,LIGHT,MEDIUM and DARK GRAY) . Unfortunately I
no longer have time to work on it,but IMHO E.O.B type games should be
easily doable.
Keith
Re: Eye of the Beholder for C64 ? [message #149682 is a reply to message #149617] Sun, 25 December 2005 01:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Jack (www.villagebbs.com)

> Why would it be? EotB is perfectly doable on the C64, albeit with
> slightly cruder graphics and fewer animations. Still, better than the
> CGA version as the OP says.

No, the C=64 couldn't do Eye of the Beholder. There are many, many
reasons why. The graphics and resolution are only one of them. Look, I
love the little C=64, but it had its limitations. Eye of the Beholder
was something of a graphical show piece game for SSI at the time. The
whole point was to do really solid 3D graphics, etc. It was somewhat
impressive on the PCs of the day which were at that time were really
starting to outpace the ole C=64. Very few of the non-Gold Box AD&D
games got ported because the C=64 was starting to show its age by the
late 80s. The ports of the side scrolling Dragonlance arcade games for
example really suffered on the C=64 and those games were rather simple
compared to EOB.

= numsix
Re: Eye of the Beholder for C64 ? [message #151583 is a reply to message #149682] Tue, 03 January 2006 07:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lars Haugseth is currently offline  Lars Haugseth
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Registered: April 2012
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Senior Member
* "Jack (www.villagebbs.com)" <lupin3@planetjurai.com> wrote:
|
| > Why would it be? EotB is perfectly doable on the C64, albeit with
| > slightly cruder graphics and fewer animations. Still, better than the
| > CGA version as the OP says.
|
| No, the C=64 couldn't do Eye of the Beholder. There are many, many
| reasons why.

Such as?

| The graphics and resolution are only one of them.

It's pretty obvious that a port wouldn't contain a pixel by pixel copy of
the graphics from the PC or Amiga version. There's no reason the game
couldn't work with standard C64 multicolor graphics.

| Look, I
| love the little C=64, but it had its limitations. Eye of the Beholder
| was something of a graphical show piece game for SSI at the time. The

Only from an artistical and not from a technical viewpoint.

| whole point was to do really solid 3D graphics, etc.

Dungeon Master, Eye of the Beholder and similar games do not contain
any real time 3D graphics rendering. It's just a matter of pasting
several pre-rendered (or rather: hand drawn) rectangular blocks of
graphics on top of each other.

I'm not saying a C64 version would look as good or play as smoothly
as a PC or Amiga version, but it's certainly doable and it should be
playable.

--
Lars Haugseth
Re: Eye of the Beholder for C64 ? [message #151589 is a reply to message #151583] Tue, 03 January 2006 09:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Jack (www.villagebbs.com)

> | No, the C=64 couldn't do Eye of the Beholder. There are many, many
> | reasons why.
>
> Such as?

First off there's no way it could even begin to touch the graphics.
Best bet as far as '3D' graphics on the C=64 would have been something
similar to the view in the Gold Box games, but that's nothing like a
nearly full screen interactive full color 3-D environment that Eye of
the Beholder had. I'm sure if they could have even attempted a half-way
port of it to the C=64 they probably would have.. but they couldn't
even have done that.

> | The graphics and resolution are only one of them.
>
> It's pretty obvious that a port wouldn't contain a pixel by pixel copy of
> the graphics from the PC or Amiga version. There's no reason the game
> couldn't work with standard C64 multicolor graphics.

Pixel by Pixel? No. Similar even? No. You could have had a small
graphics window and a lot of text all at really low resolution. It
would have been so far from the actual experience as to not really be
worth it. SSI obviously agreed.

> | whole point was to do really solid 3D graphics, etc.
>
> Dungeon Master, Eye of the Beholder and similar games do not contain
> any real time 3D graphics rendering. It's just a matter of pasting
> several pre-rendered (or rather: hand drawn) rectangular blocks of
> graphics on top of each other.

Yeah and that C=64 port of Dungeon Master was pretty dead on as well --
oh wait.

> I'm not saying a C64 version would look as good or play as smoothly
> as a PC or Amiga version, but it's certainly doable and it should be
> playable.

Sure, and you make a side-scrolling adventure game with a little green
guy fighting aliens and call it 'Halo' but it doesn't mean that its
going to be anything like the actual game.

If anyone can think of a C=64 rpg with rich graphics that ran full
screen in 3-D mode or even 2/3rds screen, please point it out. The best
I can think of are all the RPGs with a very sparse '3D Windows' that
were less than 1/4th the screen ala Gold Box, the Interplay RPGs, etc.
I mean that -could- have done EoB that way, but it would have been like
playing a gold box game sans the strategy bits. I guess you can argue
thats all that EoB was, but like I said - the graphics on that one were
a large part of the experience.

= numsix
= http://813museum.villagebbs.com
Re: Eye of the Beholder for C64 ? [message #151592 is a reply to message #151589] Tue, 03 January 2006 11:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Mueller is currently offline  David Mueller
Messages: 89
Registered: July 2003
Karma: 0
Member
Hi there

Jack (www.villagebbs.com) wrote:

> First off there's no way it could even begin to touch the graphics.
> Best bet as far as '3D' graphics on the C=64 would have been something
> similar to the view in the Gold Box games, but that's nothing like a
> nearly full screen interactive full color 3-D environment that Eye of
> the Beholder had.

Well, EOB was never really "Full Screen". Dragon Wars on the c64 had a
quite big 3D View, maybe a little smaller than EOB, nut not much.

> I'm sure if they could have even attempted a half-way
> port of it to the C=64 they probably would have.. but they couldn't
> even have done that.

I think there just was no market justifying the efforts.

>> It's pretty obvious that a port wouldn't contain a pixel by pixel copy of
>> the graphics from the PC or Amiga version. There's no reason the game
>> couldn't work with standard C64 multicolor graphics.

> Pixel by Pixel? No. Similar even? No. You could have had a small
> graphics window and a lot of text all at really low resolution. It
> would have been so far from the actual experience as to not really be
> worth it. SSI obviously agreed.

I think SSI just thought "not much money (or none at all) to make out of
it, so screw it".


>> I'm not saying a C64 version would look as good or play as smoothly
>> as a PC or Amiga version, but it's certainly doable and it should be
>> playable.
>
>
> Sure, and you make a side-scrolling adventure game with a little green
> guy fighting aliens and call it 'Halo' but it doesn't mean that its
> going to be anything like the actual game.

Well good point. NOT. I think it's quite possible to port EOB just to
some older SSI Engine like Pool of Radiance or even Dragon Wars. And I
had tons of fun playing ye olde SSI-RPGs, I just went through Buck
Rogers Countdown to Doomsday. I had a lot more fun than playing EOB on
the PC. Mybe the Realtime Combat will have to be made to roundbased on
c64, but that would make EOB better (in my opinion).

> If anyone can think of a C=64 rpg with rich graphics that ran full
> screen in 3-D mode or even 2/3rds screen, please point it out.

Take a look at Dragon Wars or Newcomer.

> The best
> I can think of are all the RPGs with a very sparse '3D Windows' that
> were less than 1/4th the screen ala Gold Box, the Interplay RPGs, etc.

Then you don't know what it's possible. So quit bragging about it.

> I mean that -could- have done EoB that way, but it would have been like
> playing a gold box game sans the strategy bits. I guess you can argue
> thats all that EoB was, but like I said - the graphics on that one were
> a large part of the experience.

For me, EOB was the realtime combat mostly. And that I did not like. GFX
s in RPGs is secondary to me.

Dave
Re: Eye of the Beholder for C64 ? [message #151593 is a reply to message #151592] Tue, 03 January 2006 12:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Jack (www.villagebbs.com)

> Well, EOB was never really "Full Screen". Dragon Wars on the c64 had a
> quite big 3D View, maybe a little smaller than EOB, nut not much.

I guess EOB was more of a Window as well, but still.. Dragon Wars was a
ways off from being on the same levels as Eye of the Beholder.

>> I'm sure if they could have even attempted a half-way
>> port of it to the C=64 they probably would have.. but they couldn't
>> even have done that.
>
> I think there just was no market justifying the efforts.

More than likely. Overall there were probably multiple reasons they
didn't port it.

> Well good point. NOT. I think it's quite possible to port EOB just to
> some older SSI Engine like Pool of Radiance or even Dragon Wars. And I
> had tons of fun playing ye olde SSI-RPGs, I just went through Buck
> Rogers Countdown to Doomsday. I had a lot more fun than playing EOB on
> the PC. Mybe the Realtime Combat will have to be made to roundbased on
> c64, but that would make EOB better (in my opinion).

I never said there was anything wrong with the Gold Box engine, i've
played through all of them on multiple systems and find it to be one of
the best RPG platforms of all time. Eye of the Beholder for better or
for worse is a different game. Making such changes to it is going back
to making Halo into a side scroller. You can do it, but its not really
the same game anymore. The C=64 god bless it, wasn't setup to do a
graphically rich, real time point and click RPG. No other game like it
exists and with reason.

>> If anyone can think of a C=64 rpg with rich graphics that ran full
>> screen in 3-D mode or even 2/3rds screen, please point it out.
>
> Take a look at Dragon Wars or Newcomer.

Yes, and its a long ways off from Eye of the Beholder. Also how would
the 'Point and Click' nature of games like EOB or Dungeon Master have
translated? Obviously you could use a joystick, but once again.. it
would be a far cry from the experience present on the other platforms.
Throwing a rock or picking up a key with the joystick in one fluid
motion.. not likely.

>> The best
>> I can think of are all the RPGs with a very sparse '3D Windows' that
>> were less than 1/4th the screen ala Gold Box, the Interplay RPGs, etc.
>
> Then you don't know what it's possible. So quit bragging about it.

Since I don't see any C=64 games remotely like Eye of the Beholder in
terms of graphics or control, I'll have to stick with that unless you
can point out something that disproves it. Dragon Wars is a cool game,
but its definitely more 'Bards Tale' than 'Eye of the Beholder'.

>> I mean that -could- have done EoB that way, but it would have been like
>> playing a gold box game sans the strategy bits. I guess you can argue
>> thats all that EoB was, but like I said - the graphics on that one were
>> a large part of the experience.
>
> For me, EOB was the realtime combat mostly. And that I did not like. GFX
> s in RPGs is secondary to me.

Then obviously they should have ported it as a text adventure and it
would have worked splendidly.

= numsix
= http://813museum.villagebbs.com
Re: Eye of the Beholder for C64 ? [message #151594 is a reply to message #151589] Tue, 03 January 2006 13:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lars Haugseth is currently offline  Lars Haugseth
Messages: 231
Registered: April 2012
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Senior Member
* "Jack (www.villagebbs.com)" <lupin3@planetjurai.com> wrote:
|
| > | No, the C=64 couldn't do Eye of the Beholder. There are many, many
| > | reasons why.
| >
| > Such as?
|
| First off there's no way it could even begin to touch the graphics.
| Best bet as far as '3D' graphics on the C=64 would have been something
| similar to the view in the Gold Box games, but that's nothing like a
| nearly full screen interactive full color 3-D environment that Eye of

Nearly full screen? Are we even talking about the same game here?

http://www.mobygames.com/game/eye-of-the-beholder/screenshot s

The size of the 3D view is 176x120 pixels -- almost exactly one third
of a standard 320x200 screen.


About 8 years ago I played around a bit with the EoB dungeon graphics
in a small Java applet:

http://skapulf.larshaugseth.com/dungeon/test.html

Use the arrow keys to move around. Never got around to do anything
fancy with it. (The web server directory is browseable, for those who
are curious.)

--
Lars Haugseth
Re: Eye of the Beholder for C64 ? [message #151596 is a reply to message #151594] Tue, 03 January 2006 14:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Jack (www.villagebbs.com)

> Nearly full screen? Are we even talking about the same game here?
>
> http://www.mobygames.com/game/eye-of-the-beholder/screenshot s
>
> The size of the 3D view is 176x120 pixels -- almost exactly one third
> of a standard 320x200 screen.

It's been almost 15 years, okay! :)

Still, I just don't think the C=64 could have pulled off anything near
to a 'close' port of EoB. The graphics and polish was the major selling
point of that game, even influencing the title. Get it, 'Eye of the
Beholder' kinda like a pun.. its not only referring to those damned gas
bags but the fact that your roaming around in a rich first person
perspective interface. The C= could have made a game would have been
pretty sparse and limited in comparison and would have lost most of the
games big 'gimmick' which was the graphics and interface.

= numsix
= http://813museum.villagebbs.com
Re: Eye of the Beholder for C64 ? [message #151678 is a reply to message #151593] Wed, 04 January 2006 16:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Mueller is currently offline  David Mueller
Messages: 89
Registered: July 2003
Karma: 0
Member
Hi there...

Jack (www.villagebbs.com) wrote:

>> Well, EOB was never really "Full Screen". Dragon Wars on the c64 had a
>> quite big 3D View, maybe a little smaller than EOB, nut not much.

> I guess EOB was more of a Window as well, but still.. Dragon Wars was a
> ways off from being on the same levels as Eye of the Beholder.

Not from the Window-Size-Issue. And that was one of your major points. I
just mentioned it because it shows that a larger 3D-Window is possible
(and already has been done) on the C. And I'm pretty sure that there can
be done way better graphics for the tiles than in DW.

>> Well good point. NOT. I think it's quite possible to port EOB just to
>> some older SSI Engine like Pool of Radiance or even Dragon Wars. And I
>> had tons of fun playing ye olde SSI-RPGs, I just went through Buck
>> Rogers Countdown to Doomsday. I had a lot more fun than playing EOB on
>> the PC. Mybe the Realtime Combat will have to be made to roundbased on
>> c64, but that would make EOB better (in my opinion).
>
>
> I never said there was anything wrong with the Gold Box engine, i've
> played through all of them on multiple systems and find it to be one of
> the best RPG platforms of all time. Eye of the Beholder for better or
> for worse is a different game. Making such changes to it is going back
> to making Halo into a side scroller. You can do it, but its not really
> the same game anymore. The C=64 god bless it, wasn't setup to do a
> graphically rich, real time point and click RPG. No other game like it
> exists and with reason.

Ok, now I see. Maybe this is why I did not share all the enthusiasm
about EOB back then. If you are saying that The wohole EOB-Feeling came
from its polished looks, then I agree, this would not be possible on the
C (obviously).
But I still think it would be possible to make a playable (and somewhat
enjoyable) EOB for the C. But maybe then people would see how thin the
story of EOB was, maybe that's the reason why they did not port it :)?

>>> If anyone can think of a C=64 rpg with rich graphics that ran full
>>> screen in 3-D mode or even 2/3rds screen, please point it out.
>>
>> Take a look at Dragon Wars or Newcomer.

> Yes, and its a long ways off from Eye of the Beholder. Also how would
> the 'Point and Click' nature of games like EOB or Dungeon Master have
> translated? Obviously you could use a joystick, but once again.. it
> would be a far cry from the experience present on the other platforms.
> Throwing a rock or picking up a key with the joystick in one fluid
> motion.. not likely.

OK, agreed on that. Now that you mention it, that was some of the major
improvements of EOB (the real interaction with the 3d screen). I just
took another approach on what is the "soul" of EOB.

>>> The best
>>> I can think of are all the RPGs with a very sparse '3D Windows' that
>>> were less than 1/4th the screen ala Gold Box, the Interplay RPGs, etc.
>>
>> Then you don't know what it's possible. So quit bragging about it.

> Since I don't see any C=64 games remotely like Eye of the Beholder in
> terms of graphics or control, I'll have to stick with that unless you
> can point out something that disproves it. Dragon Wars is a cool game,
> but its definitely more 'Bards Tale' than 'Eye of the Beholder'.

As above, we were talking about different things. For me the gfx is one
of the last point making a good RPG. But I agree that the EOB feeling
would be lost if you'd convert it into some "old style" RPG, even with
bigger 3d and smoother gfx.

>>> I mean that -could- have done EoB that way, but it would have been like
>>> playing a gold box game sans the strategy bits. I guess you can argue
>>> thats all that EoB was, but like I said - the graphics on that one were
>>> a large part of the experience.
>>
>> For me, EOB was the realtime combat mostly. And that I did not like. GFX
>> s in RPGs is secondary to me.
>
>
> Then obviously they should have ported it as a text adventure and it
> would have worked splendidly.

Hehehe, maybe. No, seriously, I think I would enjoy EOB ported to the
c64 as much as I did on PC, since I did not care about all that
real-time combat and throw things into the corridors and the nice gfx.

Maybe we can agree that it would be possible to make an EOB with very
similar playing but completely different interface and worse gfx.

So next question: Would it be possible to port Wizardry 6 to the c64? I
think it would be perfectly possible, it was EGA-gfx, keyboard interface.
Wiz7 might be a different thing.

Dave

--
www.ea31.com -> your place for wanton interrupts, finally being updated
soon!
Re: Eye of the Beholder for C64 ? [message #151691 is a reply to message #151678] Wed, 04 January 2006 18:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kiethl is currently offline  kiethl
Messages: 47
Registered: July 2003
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Member
as for the interface,there IS a mouse for the C64 &C128.The whole sword
play/magic thing is quite doable.Yes the graphics wouldn't be as good
as E.O.B. , but pretty good.As for 3D games for the C64,weren't LEGEND
OF BLACKSILVER (I think that was the name,something like that anyway)
and LEGACY OF THE ANCHIENTS (I know I mispelled that!! ) 3D?
keith
Re: Eye of the Beholder for C64 ? [message #151692 is a reply to message #151691] Wed, 04 January 2006 18:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Mueller is currently offline  David Mueller
Messages: 89
Registered: July 2003
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Member
Hi there...

kiethl@theriver.com wrote:

> as for the interface,there IS a mouse for the C64 &C128.The whole sword
> play/magic thing is quite doable.

Am I wrong, or ist it that even with a mouse only 8 directions ar
coverd? Seems like a pain in the a... to my for such a purpose.

David
Re: Eye of the Beholder for C64 ? [message #151694 is a reply to message #151691] Wed, 04 January 2006 19:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lars Haugseth is currently offline  Lars Haugseth
Messages: 231
Registered: April 2012
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Senior Member
* kiethl@theriver.com wrote:
|
| as for the interface,there IS a mouse for the C64 &C128.The whole sword

It's also possible to write software to utilize an Amiga mouse
connected to one of the joystick ports of a C64.

| play/magic thing is quite doable.Yes the graphics wouldn't be as good
| as E.O.B. , but pretty good.As for 3D games for the C64,weren't LEGEND
| OF BLACKSILVER (I think that was the name,something like that anyway)
| and LEGACY OF THE ANCHIENTS (I know I mispelled that!! ) 3D?

The closest thing to an E.O.B. style 3D engine I can think of is BOOM:
http://www.gamebase64.com/game.php?id=972

--
Lars Haugseth
Re: Eye of the Beholder for C64 ? [message #151695 is a reply to message #151692] Wed, 04 January 2006 19:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lars Haugseth is currently offline  Lars Haugseth
Messages: 231
Registered: April 2012
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Senior Member
* David Mueller <spamspamspam@ea31.com> wrote:
|
| Hi there...
|
| kiethl@theriver.com wrote:
|
| > as for the interface,there IS a mouse for the C64 &C128.The whole sword
| > play/magic thing is quite doable.
|
| Am I wrong, or ist it that even with a mouse only 8 directions ar
| coverd? Seems like a pain in the a... to my for such a purpose.

That's correct for the C1350. The C1351 and Amiga mice were fully
proportional.

--
Lars Haugseth
Re: Eye of the Beholder for C64 ? [message #151696 is a reply to message #151695] Wed, 04 January 2006 19:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Mueller is currently offline  David Mueller
Messages: 89
Registered: July 2003
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Member
Hi there...

Lars Haugseth wrote:

> | Am I wrong, or ist it that even with a mouse only 8 directions ar
> | coverd? Seems like a pain in the a... to my for such a purpose.
>
> That's correct for the C1350. The C1351 and Amiga mice were fully
> proportional.

Hm, then I only have the C1350s. But I do have billions (well...) of
Amiga mice, I never knew you could use the on a c64? Any usefuls links
or something?

Dave
Re: Eye of the Beholder for C64 ? [message #151713 is a reply to message #151678] Thu, 05 January 2006 00:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anton Treuenfels is currently offline  Anton Treuenfels
Messages: 105
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
"David Mueller" <spamspamspam@ea31.com> wrote in message
news:422uq2F1gfg01U1@news.dfncis.de...
> Hi there...

> So next question: Would it be possible to port Wizardry 6 to the c64? I
> think it would be perfectly possible, it was EGA-gfx, keyboard interface.
> Wiz7 might be a different thing.

The Wiz ports to the C64/128 were done largely by creating an interpreter
for compiled UCSD Pascal p-code. Wiz5 was David Bradley's first Wiz game,
and he did not like UCSD Pascal, so that was the last Wiz game for the
C64/128 (and Apple II, I think).
Re: Eye of the Beholder for C64 ? [message #151721 is a reply to message #151696] Thu, 05 January 2006 02:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lars Haugseth is currently offline  Lars Haugseth
Messages: 231
Registered: April 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
* David Mueller <spamspamspam@ea31.com> wrote:
|
| Hi there...
|
| Lars Haugseth wrote:
|
| > | Am I wrong, or ist it that even with a mouse only 8 directions ar
| > | coverd? Seems like a pain in the a... to my for such a purpose.
| > That's correct for the C1350. The C1351 and Amiga mice were fully
| > proportional.
|
| Hm, then I only have the C1350s. But I do have billions (well...) of
| Amiga mice, I never knew you could use the on a c64? Any usefuls links
| or something?

I think there are a couple of drawing applications that supports it,
but I don't remember which, sorry. Back in the early 90s I did a little
fiddling with some code to read the mouse and got it to work just fine,
so I know for a certainty that it is possible. The best way is to use
timer interrupts, as the input values have to be read more than 1000
times a second for it to work smoothly.

--
Lars Haugseth
Re: Eye of the Beholder for C64 ? [message #151729 is a reply to message #151721] Thu, 05 January 2006 04:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lars Haugseth is currently offline  Lars Haugseth
Messages: 231
Registered: April 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
* Lars Haugseth <njus@larshaugseth.com> wrote:
|
| * David Mueller <spamspamspam@ea31.com> wrote:
| |
| | Hm, then I only have the C1350s. But I do have billions (well...) of
| | Amiga mice, I never knew you could use the on a c64? Any usefuls links
| | or something?
|
| I think there are a couple of drawing applications that supports it,
| but I don't remember which, sorry.

Here's a hacked version of the Advanced Art Studio that supports
input via the Amiga mouse:

http://mermaid.c64scene.org/download/c64gfxtools/FART.ZIP

--
Lars Haugseth
Re: Eye of the Beholder for C64 ? [message #151733 is a reply to message #151729] Thu, 05 January 2006 07:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Mueller is currently offline  David Mueller
Messages: 89
Registered: July 2003
Karma: 0
Member
Hi...

Lars Haugseth schrieb:

> | | Hm, then I only have the C1350s. But I do have billions (well...) of
> | | Amiga mice, I never knew you could use the on a c64? Any usefuls links
> | | or something?
> |
> | I think there are a couple of drawing applications that supports it,
> | but I don't remember which, sorry.
>
> Here's a hacked version of the Advanced Art Studio that supports
> input via the Amiga mouse:
>
> http://mermaid.c64scene.org/download/c64gfxtools/FART.ZIP

....thanks for the link!

Just dug out my old Amica-Paint Disc, and there is a file called
"AMIGAMOUSE", so maybe I can use one with my favorite Painting Programm.
Is the 1351 any different than the Amiga-Mouse?

David
Re: Eye of the Beholder for C64 ? [message #151736 is a reply to message #151733] Thu, 05 January 2006 08:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lars Haugseth is currently offline  Lars Haugseth
Messages: 231
Registered: April 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
* David Mueller <spampampam@ea31.com> wrote:
|
| Just dug out my old Amica-Paint Disc, and there is a file called
| "AMIGAMOUSE", so maybe I can use one with my favorite Painting
| Programm.

Ah, Amica-Paint. There's a great piece of software. Let us know if
it works.

| Is the 1351 any different than the Amiga-Mouse?

If I remember correctly, they operate quite differently: with the 1351, you
only have to read x and y delta values once per frame, where as with the amiga
mouse you have to poll the ports constantly to check for movement.

--
Lars Haugseth
Re: Eye of the Beholder for C64 ? [message #151741 is a reply to message #151678] Thu, 05 January 2006 10:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Jack (www.villagebbs.com)

> Ok, now I see. Maybe this is why I did not share all the enthusiasm
> about EOB back then. If you are saying that The wohole EOB-Feeling came
> from its polished looks, then I agree, this would not be possible on the
> C (obviously).
> But I still think it would be possible to make a playable (and somewhat
> enjoyable) EOB for the C. But maybe then people would see how thin the
> story of EOB was, maybe that's the reason why they did not port it :)?

Well that was exactly my point. They couldn't have done a port of EoB
without losing all the glitzy graphics, interface, etc. which is what
EoB was all about. To be honest, it was never my favorite game either.
But you can make a 'version' of anything on the C=, but limitations in
hardware may make it so far from the original that its almost not the
same game anymore. If its still enjoyable or not, well thats a
different issue altogether. Still, I don't see how they could come
close to recreating the 'true' EoB experience on the C=. Bast case
scenerio would have been a stripped down Gold Box like game which would
have been pretty far from the mark.

> OK, agreed on that. Now that you mention it, that was some of the major
> improvements of EOB (the real interaction with the 3d screen). I just
> took another approach on what is the "soul" of EOB.

Yeah, to me the 'soul' was always the interface and the glitzy
graphics. If you take it down to its basics, its not that great of a
game. It was like those early CD-ROM games, sure we all were wowed by
the FMV, etc.. but looking back most of the games weren't that great.

> Maybe we can agree that it would be possible to make an EOB with very
> similar playing but completely different interface and worse gfx.

OK, fair enough. I think as-is though that game would have really
sucked and thats probably why we didn't see it.. well that and
shrinking C= market share was another big factor.

> So next question: Would it be possible to port Wizardry 6 to the c64? I
> think it would be perfectly possible, it was EGA-gfx, keyboard interface.
> Wiz7 might be a different thing.
>
> Dave

Haven't played Wizard VI in years, but if I remember it was a lot
'slower paced' so it probably could have been translated easier. You
don't have to worry about shoe-horning a GUI interface that relied on
heavy mouse support onto a computer that for all realistic purposes had
no way of doing that sort of thing other than using a joystick.

I think i was mostly dissapointed by the lack of a port of Dark Queen
of Krynn to the C=. I had my guys all ready for it. Fresh from Dave
Shelly challenge, levels all maxxed out. Ludicrous gold.. er steel..
then, nada. I eventually got a PC and DQK was one of the first PC games
I ever bought, but in a stroke of sheer irony the 'new characters' are
so weak its hard to get anywhere.. ended up having to restart the
series years later and build up a new party.

= numsix
= http://www.villagebbs.com
Re: Eye of the Beholder for C64 ? [message #151742 is a reply to message #151691] Thu, 05 January 2006 10:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Jack (www.villagebbs.com)

kiethl@theriver.com wrote:
> as for the interface,there IS a mouse for the C64 &C128.The whole sword
> play/magic thing is quite doable.Yes the graphics wouldn't be as good
> as E.O.B. , but pretty good.As for 3D games for the C64,weren't LEGEND
> OF BLACKSILVER (I think that was the name,something like that anyway)
> and LEGACY OF THE ANCHIENTS (I know I mispelled that!! ) 3D?
> keith

Of course there was a mouse for the C=64, but how many people actually
had it? I never bothered to get one. I doubt you'd see a game that late
in the C=64s life that required people to have a bit of hardware that
wasn't common to play. Talk about going after only a slice of a fairly
small pie to begin with.

Legend of Blacksilver had 3-D dungeons, but if i recall they were
-very- simple. Questron, etc. had a similar setup with dungeons.. but
we're talking line drawings here. You could draw a circle and say its a
Beholder.. but thats kinda pointless given the nature of the game.

= numsix
= http://813museum.villagebbs.com
Re: Eye of the Beholder for C64 ? [message #151743 is a reply to message #151694] Thu, 05 January 2006 10:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Jack (www.villagebbs.com)

> The closest thing to an E.O.B. style 3D engine I can think of is BOOM:
> http://www.gamebase64.com/game.php?id=972
>
> --
> Lars Haugseth

Now that looks pretty impressive. But we've seen some really cool stuff
'after the fact' from the C= homebrew community.

= numsix
= http://813museum.villagebbs.com
Re: Eye of the Beholder for C64 ? [message #151750 is a reply to message #151741] Thu, 05 January 2006 12:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Mueller is currently offline  David Mueller
Messages: 89
Registered: July 2003
Karma: 0
Member
Hi there...

Jack (www.villagebbs.com) wrote:


> I think i was mostly dissapointed by the lack of a port of Dark Queen
> of Krynn to the C=. I had my guys all ready for it. Fresh from Dave
> Shelly challenge, levels all maxxed out. Ludicrous gold.. er steel..
> then, nada. I eventually got a PC and DQK was one of the first PC games
> I ever bought, but in a stroke of sheer irony the 'new characters' are
> so weak its hard to get anywhere.. ended up having to restart the
> series years later and build up a new party.

I felt the same about Buck Rogers. Made it through and spent points on
useless skills "because they will be needed in the sequel", but then it
never showed on the c64. BTW, wasn't BR planned as a Trilogy? I can only
remember two games of the series (Countdown to Doomsday and Matrix Cubed).

Dave
Re: Eye of the Beholder for C64 ? [message #151754 is a reply to message #151750] Thu, 05 January 2006 14:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Jack (www.villagebbs.com)

> I felt the same about Buck Rogers. Made it through and spent points on
> useless skills "because they will be needed in the sequel", but then it
> never showed on the c64. BTW, wasn't BR planned as a Trilogy? I can only
> remember two games of the series (Countdown to Doomsday and Matrix Cubed).

Ha, I remember that.. 'Note: this skill will be used in the sequel blah
blah' in the instruction manual. I remember one of the early missions
in that one was tough, with the 'Aliens' scenrio with your people
constantly dying and attacking you and such.

I never really played passed 'Countdown' because as you pointed out
Matrix Cubed never made it to the C=64. Don't recall if i heard
anything about a trilogy, its possible that more games were planned but
if you remember the whole 'Buck Rogers push' at TSR kinda fizzled. They
launched the P&P RPG, A Book Line and the Games all around the same
time but then it all kinda died. There were more books in the series
(although I don't recall which one came after Matrix Cubed, but there
was at least 4 or 5 books total) so its possible that a 3rd one might
have come out had the series done better. Also the Gold Box platform
itself died with what, Pool of Darkness being the last one (or was it
Dark Queen)? Which was a shame. Can't believe they never brought it
back. I was so happy when I heard about the 'new' Pool of Radiance that
came out a few years back but that game was eh.. so-so at best and very
buggy. I don't much care for the Balder's gate engine games.

The Savage frontier also only made it to two games as well. I can't
recall if that was by design or not. I think I remember the levels
being a bit higher in that one per game and its rather difficult to
keep the games going after you get into the high teen levels as the
AD&D universe was kinda designed to cap out around 18 or so, but I know
Pool of Darkness potientially allowed for higher -- i never finished
that one.

= numsix
= http://813museum.villagebbs.com
Re: Eye of the Beholder for C64 ? [message #151755 is a reply to message #151754] Thu, 05 January 2006 14:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Mueller is currently offline  David Mueller
Messages: 89
Registered: July 2003
Karma: 0
Member
Hi..

Jack (www.villagebbs.com) wrote:

>> I felt the same about Buck Rogers. Made it through and spent points on
>> useless skills "because they will be needed in the sequel", but then it
>> never showed on the c64. BTW, wasn't BR planned as a Trilogy? I can only
>> remember two games of the series (Countdown to Doomsday and Matrix Cubed).
>
>
> Ha, I remember that.. 'Note: this skill will be used in the sequel blah
> blah' in the instruction manual. I remember one of the early missions
> in that one was tough, with the 'Aliens' scenrio with your people
> constantly dying and attacking you and such.

Yeah, Buck Rogers was quite tough, I think you're talking about he
"Gennies" and the part, where your Partymembers get infected with
something and pass out or attack each other.

> I never really played passed 'Countdown' because as you pointed out
> Matrix Cubed never made it to the C=64. Don't recall if i heard
> anything about a trilogy, its possible that more games were planned but
> if you remember the whole 'Buck Rogers push' at TSR kinda fizzled. They
> launched the P&P RPG, A Book Line and the Games all around the same
> time but then it all kinda died. There were more books in the series
> (although I don't recall which one came after Matrix Cubed, but there
> was at least 4 or 5 books total) so its possible that a 3rd one might
> have come out had the series done better. Also the Gold Box platform
> itself died with what, Pool of Darkness being the last one (or was it
> Dark Queen)?

I think Dark Queen was later, but hasn't there been Curse of the Azure
Bonds for the c64, too? Has to be newer than Pool, since it's the sequel :).

> Which was a shame. Can't believe they never brought it
> back. I was so happy when I heard about the 'new' Pool of Radiance that
> came out a few years back but that game was eh.. so-so at best and very
> buggy. I don't much care for the Balder's gate engine games.

Yeah, well, that's how it always works. Buy a great name, and then don't
have the money to make a decent game.

> The Savage frontier also only made it to two games as well. I can't
> recall if that was by design or not. I think I remember the levels
> being a bit higher in that one per game and its rather difficult to
> keep the games going after you get into the high teen levels as the
> AD&D universe was kinda designed to cap out around 18 or so, but I know
> Pool of Darkness potientially allowed for higher -- i never finished
> that one.

Never came that far. Went through Pool of Radiance and started with
Curse. But there was one between Curse and Pools of Darkness? Secret of
the Silver Blades or something like that?

The Baldur's gate Engine I did not like, too. The buggy pathfinding
routines (and your people often being stuck behind something) kept me
from playing through this one.
I still hope that somehow there will be a Wizardry 9, 8 was great and 7
the best game I ever played.

Dave
Re: Eye of the Beholder for C64 ? [message #151758 is a reply to message #151694] Thu, 05 January 2006 15:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter van Merkerk is currently offline  Peter van Merkerk
Messages: 338
Registered: July 2003
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Lars Haugseth wrote:
> * kiethl@theriver.com wrote:
> |
> | as for the interface,there IS a mouse for the C64 &C128.The whole sword
>
> It's also possible to write software to utilize an Amiga mouse
> connected to one of the joystick ports of a C64.
>
> | play/magic thing is quite doable.Yes the graphics wouldn't be as good
> | as E.O.B. , but pretty good.As for 3D games for the C64,weren't LEGEND
> | OF BLACKSILVER (I think that was the name,something like that anyway)
> | and LEGACY OF THE ANCHIENTS (I know I mispelled that!! ) 3D?
>
> The closest thing to an E.O.B. style 3D engine I can think of is BOOM:
> http://www.gamebase64.com/game.php?id=972

Bloodwych:
http://www.lemon64.com/games/details.php?ID=306
Re: Eye of the Beholder for C64 ? [message #151763 is a reply to message #151755] Thu, 05 January 2006 15:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Jack (www.villagebbs.com)

> I think Dark Queen was later, but hasn't there been Curse of the Azure
> Bonds for the c64, too? Has to be newer than Pool, since it's the sequel :).

C=64 Got Pool of Radiance, Curse of the Azure Bonds and Silver Blades
on the Forgotten Realms games, it never got Pool of Darkness.

On the Dragonlance front it got Champions of Krynn and Death Knights of
Krynn.

I was saying that I think Pool of Darkness or Dark Queen (one or the
other) was the last 'Gold Box' game, cant remember which came last
though.

> Never came that far. Went through Pool of Radiance and started with
> Curse. But there was one between Curse and Pools of Darkness? Secret of
> the Silver Blades or something like that?

Yeah, Silver Blades was the 3rd and final one for the C=64.

> The Baldur's gate Engine I did not like, too. The buggy pathfinding
> routines (and your people often being stuck behind something) kept me
> from playing through this one.
> I still hope that somehow there will be a Wizardry 9, 8 was great and 7
> the best game I ever played.

I just don't like the 'real time' bit. I think what drew me to the Gold
Box games the most was the focus put on Battle Strategy. I guess it
wasn't suprising considering these games were coming from SSI and all,
but still.. it was neat. You had to actually plan out your battles in
much greater detail than in say something like the Bards Tale where you
just kinda issue commands and hope for the best.

Never really played Wizardry passed the first one. I enjoyed that 'this
game doesn't actually have a plot' part of it.. just hack and slash!

= numsix
= http://813museum.villagebbs.com
Re: Eye of the Beholder for C64 ? [message #151840 is a reply to message #151763] Fri, 06 January 2006 08:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Mueller is currently offline  David Mueller
Messages: 89
Registered: July 2003
Karma: 0
Member
>> The Baldur's gate Engine I did not like, too. The buggy pathfinding
>> routines (and your people often being stuck behind something) kept me
>> from playing through this one.
>> I still hope that somehow there will be a Wizardry 9, 8 was great and 7
>> the best game I ever played.
>
>
> I just don't like the 'real time' bit. I think what drew me to the Gold
> Box games the most was the focus put on Battle Strategy. I guess it
> wasn't suprising considering these games were coming from SSI and all,
> but still.. it was neat. You had to actually plan out your battles in
> much greater detail than in say something like the Bards Tale where you
> just kinda issue commands and hope for the best.

I found the combats (especially the ones with many foes) sometimes a bit
annoying in the SSI-Games, maybe it was because they took so long to
load :). The Combat in Wiz8 can be quite strategic to, of course not
that much because you cannot split your group (what was most unfair
about the comabt - alwyas your whole party is hit by fireballs 'n stuff).
The combat in the older Wizardries is of course mor straightforward,
like Bard's tale. I like this type a lot.

> Never really played Wizardry passed the first one. I enjoyed that 'this
> game doesn't actually have a plot' part of it.. just hack and slash!

Hehe, this is one of the major points of the later Wizes, the very good
story. And of course the nonlinearity.

Dave
Re: Eye of the Beholder for C64 ? [message #151842 is a reply to message #151840] Fri, 06 January 2006 09:05 Go to previous message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Jack (www.villagebbs.com)

> I found the combats (especially the ones with many foes) sometimes a bit
> annoying in the SSI-Games, maybe it was because they took so long to
> load :). The Combat in Wiz8 can be quite strategic to, of course not
> that much because you cannot split your group (what was most unfair
> about the comabt - alwyas your whole party is hit by fireballs 'n stuff).
> The combat in the older Wizardries is of course mor straightforward,
> like Bard's tale. I like this type a lot.

I guess the Gold Box combat system was a bit of a double edged sword.
The cool 'major' battles were really, well cool. Where do I stick my
Fighters, etc? But overall the battles did take awhile to muddle
through and the loading times on the C=64 were horrible at points. This
made 'random' battles tedius to the extreme. The minute you saw that
Kobold pop up on the screen and the 1541 spin up.. yeah good times. But
overall it was a fun game. One of the games that a Hard Drive made life
much easier on when I played them on the PC or later the Amiga as well.

The 'Bards Tale' engine was good too, but obviously the battles were a
lot less interactive, but I enjoyed the 'text descriptions' especially
on Wasteland. You'd be in the middle of a battle with some mutant bunny
and it would pop up something like 'Character hits Bunny with AK-47 for
89 damage exploding bunny like an old watermelon' and you'd just have
to laugh.

Too bad we never got 'legit' sequels to Wasteland or a Bard's Tale IV.
I've read stuff from Interplay (when it was still around in a major
way) and apparently EA still owns the rights to most of these games
they released early on and apparently they could come to an agreement
for a license. I think the original plan was to make a new Wasteland,
but because of that they did an 'original' game and the Fallout games
were born. They just released a new Bard's Tale, but its more a comedy
/ spoof game than anything else.

= numsix
= http://813museum.villagebbs.com
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