Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!wuarchive!gem.mps.ohio-state.edu!ginosko!uunet!ingr!phil
From: phil@ingr.com (Phil Johnson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Re: Well the rumor I heard....
Message-ID: <6699@ingr.com>
Date: 2 Oct 89 19:40:37 GMT
References: <6658@ingr.com> <8039@cbmvax.UUCP>
Reply-To: phil@ingr.UUCP (Phil Johnson)
Organization: Intergraph Corp. Huntsville, Al
Lines: 183

In article <8039@cbmvax.UUCP> daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) writes:
>> workstations like this.  Especially when Commodore and their people do not
>> want to consider the Amiga moving into the personal workstation market, such
>> as Macs and AT.  
>
>I still claim there's a difference between a Personal Computer and a 
>Workstation, though it's true that distinction is blurring.  For a large
>number of folks, a Personal Computer will serve the purpose of a Workstation,
>and for a small number the reverse is true.  But there are differences, both
>is the way they're sold and the way they're designed.  It currently looks
>something like this:

I specifically stated PERSONAL workstation.  The accepted industry definition 
of Personal workstation is the high-end, high performance personal computers 
such as 386 ATs and Mac IIs. I do agree that there is a difference between 
personal workstations and the traditional workstations.  I do disagree on many
points of difference that you stated between personal and traditional 
workstations.

>CPU		Standard CISC		CISC for low end, 
>					RISC everywhere else

I throught the Sparc and MIPS R2000 were RISC.  Take a look at the
Personal IRIS, DECstation 2100, and the SparcStation 1.  They are classified
as low-end workstations.

>CACHE		None to 16k		64k-256k
>MEMORY		1-3 Wait States		No Wait States
>COST		$1-$10k			$5k-$50k

The ATs that are classified as Personal Workstations (Compaq 386/33, AST 386/33
etc)  normally run 16-64K of cache, 0 wait state memory, and cost in a range
of $5-$15K.

>BOUGHT		In computer stores	From Manufacturer or OEM

Sun has signed a sales agreement with a computer store chain.

>LAN		Slow, optional		Ethernet or faster, required

Personal workstations are normally sold with an IEEE 802.3 Ethernet card.
This card IS an installed OPTION.  It normally cost $250-$400 per node.
To refesh your memory Ethernet runs at 10 megabits per second. SLOW?????

>DISPLAY		640x480x8		1280x1024 Monochome low end,
>					1280x1024x24 or so, high end
>		$750			up to $20,000

Most of the personal workstations are delivered with display pixel formats of
1280x1024, 1024x800, or 1024x 768.  This is either a 19 inch or 16 inch display
with 256 colors (16.2 millions color pallet).  The cost of the graphics 
controllers is from $1,200-$3,400 (Lundy - 1600x1200 = $10,500).

>SOFTWARE	Large Variety		Dedicated Applications
>		$25-$500		$5,000 on up
>		Pay for updates		Maintence contract $1000/year

                $25-$5,000
                software maintenance contracts are usually available on
                professional level software, some provide updates at no
                cost.

>Alot of it depends on what you really consider "Workstation".  When you say

It isn't what I consider, but what the industry has defined as personal
workstations and low-end workstations.

>the top of my head; I'm thinking Engineering Workstation for something like
>EE CAD, Mechanical CAD, PC Board layout, Circuit Simulation, etc.  That's what
>we have Workstations for here in West Chester.  Of those four tasks, I have
>software that'll do each one of them on my Amiga.  However, that software 
>doesn't even come CLOSE to what's available on real Engineering Workstations.

That is due to the lack of support of third-party developers by Commodore,
which is one of the problems!

The Calay router used to be an MC6809-based Q22 box.  Gee power in 8 bits. 8-{)

>There's nothing like Mentor's NetEd on any Clone, Amiga, or Macintosh. A really

There are a few that excede the functional and operational performance of 
NetEd and provides a friendly user environment.  I know of two AT-based shops 
that are generating 40 to 50 new designs per year with board densities up to 
15 EIC.  This with approx. 150 ecos per year.

>souped up Clone can probably do a fair shot at mechanical CAD, but by the

and geologic information, and tech. pubs, and AEC, and electronics design and
on-on-on.

>time you've added the extra stuff to make it do that reasonably (fast '386
>with cache, large color display) you're well into the Workstation column, and
>you still have piss-poor disk I/O.  No Clone, Mac, or Amiga can make much more

The personal workstations are configured with either SCSI or ESDI and that 
AIN'T slow,  but you called it right.  The cost will run $7k-$15k.  BUT a lot
of people are buying them.

>or Simulation station, they're just too slow (we use

I agree that unless a personal workstation is specially configured, such as the
Sun 386i-IKOS simulator, it will not standup to a dedicated simulation server.
But, I am not talking about a $100K platform.

>
>So, basically, even though to some degree PC and Workstations have overlapped
>(for instance, I've been using an '030 based Amiga for over 1.5 years that's
>considerably faster than any Apollo we have in house), there's no Amiga 
>software that even comes close to the Mentor software we use for CAD.  We've

Again, due to lack of support of third-party developers by Commodore.  Why
does Commodore have a machine that has higher performance than what you design
it on, but refuses to entice development of software for it?  VERY STRANGE!

There are packages such as FutureNet, P-CAD, Protel, Design Engineer-PC that
perform very well in a production environment.

>
>The one area where PCs have replaced Workstations around here has been for
>software development.  Nearly every one of our software people, for both
>Amiga and UNIX software development, is running native on an Amiga.  By
>choice, not mandate (there are Suns available).  The Assemblers and the
>programming environment has been much better on the Amiga for some time
>for Amiga OS work, and '030 based Amiga so this job significantly faster than
>Sun 2s.  Fortunately, an assembler or compiler is a relatively small and
>simple program with reasonably wide appeal, so there are good ones for the
>Amiga, and lots of competition to keep up.  Here's an advantage of being a
>PC rather than a workstation.  But I still see a difference.

I totally agree.  In fact, the prime application areas for personal and 
tradition low-end workstation are software development, CASE, econometric
modeling, and desktop publication.  Also, you have the leader (self-
proclaimed nightly on TV) of desktop media; the MAC.

There is indeed a bounty of native development tools for developing Amiga
software.  I'm not sure the John Toebes would agree with you on a compiler 
being a relatively small and simple program. 8-{(  BUT, where are the 
cross-tools for developing code for embedded systems etc.  Avocet offers the 
Quelo 68K cross-assembler, but I have yet to find a C, Modula-2, or Ada (
cross or otherwise -- what Ada on an Amiga 8-{) cross-compiler that is hosted
on the Amiga.

Scenario: embedded controller attached to a zorro-based cross-development 
card (Write Control Store RAM/ROM for debugging and EPROM programmer 
controller).  Download control code into WCS, start the control 
program and debug it's operation online because you are connected to the
controller console through a terminal-emulator window.  Find a problem, edit
the code and reload WCS and run again.  This is just a fantasy you say.
I do this using the Quelo cross-assembler and the Amiga 1000 expansion port 
for connecting the WCS.

Where are the CASE tools that are available on the Clones?
Where is the SAS package for the Amiga? (The Clones have one).
Where is Adobe Illustrator?  Where is WordPerfect 5.0?

The "where is" list goes on and on with only one answer. 

-- The Amiga is different --  
YUP! THEY have 'um - We don't.

Why? Lack of support of third-party developers by Commodore and a molassa-
like speed at keeping up with technology.  In reality the 2000 should have
been the 1500 and the 2000 should have been an 020-based 32-bit machine.
The 2000HD and the 2500 should cost less as a bundled system than it does to
put it together as bits-n-pieces.

I understand the Politik Corporate and where the decisions are made. All of
you do a hell of a job, so don't think that I am taking shots at the
technical groups.  My bore is elevated much higher. 8-{)

We have burned enough of the bandwidth with this, maybe someday we can continue
the discussion over an Irish wiskey (can you get an Amiga conference scheduled
for St. Pat's day?)  Until then we can email.


 



-- 
Philip E. Johnson                    UUCP:  usenet!ingr!b3!sys_7a!phil
MY words,                           VOICE:  (205) 772-2497
MY opinion!