Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!mailrus!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!gem.mps.ohio-state.edu!wuarchive!kuhub.cc.ukans.edu!anu-news!list From: munnari!csc.anu.oz.au!gih900@UUNET.UU.NET (Geoff Huston) Newsgroups: news.software.anu-news Subject: Re: RE: Information needed Message-ID: <8909260021.AA11199@uunet.uu.net> Date: 26 Sep 89 15:09:02 GMT Sender: ANU-NEWS DiscussionReply-To: Geoff Huston Lines: 61 X-cc: GIH900@uunet.UU.NET Following on with this topic about the differences between the USENET NEWS model and that used by VAXnotes:... Mats Sundvall writes: >This also make it similar to Usenet News in the sens that you hook up postings >to a linear list that was sampled some time ago. All other users that may reply >to the same item may or may not have your replies in their list. If they >sampled the database BEFORE you updated the database they will not have them >available. The only difference is the amount of time it will take until you >get the "complete" reply list. but you will NEVER get a "complete" reply list (unless the newsgroup is very inactive) - new postings are being added continually. >Is it possible to use the timestamp to order entries? If you assume that >all nodes have a valid timestamp and a valid timezone header line you >could use this to order entries. Have you looked at the timestamp fields in the headers? They are a mess!!!! Even if a program could make some sensible effort at translating the ascii timestamps into a binary post date, the information doesn't help - the asychronous nature of USENET postings makes efforts at linearizing a conversation of limited value. > Sure DEC has to do something similar >with postings into VAX Notes. I have never used VAX Notes but as you describe >it they rebuild a tree into a linear list. The information you lose may not >be that big in a small conferense but in a worldwide VAX Notes conference >you would loose a lot. VAXnotes does not have to rebuild a tree into a list: as all postings within a conference occur on the node hosting that conference there is a unique time order of postings into the conference. USENET does not have that ability. >> So in answer to the original question - no - NEWS is not going to do much more >> than it does at present in the topic/reply area. If thats what you are after - >> then buy VAXnotes! > >I hope you are wrong. If Usenet News is going to survive it will have to evolve. >This is one of the areas where it need improvements. Its a big problem - part of the assets of the USENET network is the ability to use a wide range of network tools to distribute news - mail, ip connections, DECnet, X.25, and anything else at hand. The diversity of NEWS platforms and the diversity of systems and networks certainly presents challenges - the task for each NEWS implementation is to be able to correctly interpret data that is fed to it, and feed data to adjacent NEWS sites in a format which is as reasonable as possible (this implies adherance to the RFC, certainly, but also the conservative use of additional functions in other implementations (e.g. the Supersedes: header interpretation). Any topic/reply tree construction implementated by a NEWS system is going to have to fit within this USENET environment. By camparison Digital's VAXnotes was easy - one platform - one implementation - one network architecture. USENET NEWS faces a much more significant set of challenges! Geoff Huston