Path: utzoo!utgpu!watmath!ubc-cs!alberta!ncc!apss!jhp
From: jhp@apss.ab.ca (Herb Presley, Emergency Planning Officer)
Newsgroups: can.general
Subject: Re: Scene at a Roman Catholic cathedral near you a few years ago.
Summary: What did you expect?
Message-ID: <1482@apss.apss.ab.ca>
Date: 16 Aug 89 15:54:06 GMT
References: <3984@looking.on.ca> <1479@apss.apss.ab.ca> <619057392.19843@telly.on.ca>
Organization: Alberta Public Safety Services
Lines: 143

In article <619057392.19843@telly.on.ca>, evan@telly.on.ca (Evan Leibovitch) writes:
 
> And I was waiting for someone to come to the Church's defence, feeble
> defence that it is...

Why is it whenever you try to have an open discussion on a subject involving
the christian faith, someone always has to start talking like a nerd.  "Look, a
CHURCH lover!  Spank, spank, spank.  Ooohhh!"

"Thank goodness for the RIGHT WING POLICE.  They will make sure that NOONE gets
to defend anything to do with that....that....that....(sputter,
choke)...CHURCH!
 
> >Your implied assumption that somehow the church is responsible for a priest's
> >behavior simply perpetrates the myth which fuels pedophilic bahavior.
> 
> Church leaders are granted special standing in their community, in some
> cases wielding more power than politicians. And unlike any politician,
> they also are respected because of their ethical judgement.

So are parents.  So are teachers.  So are social workers.  So are the police,
in fact.  So are emus.  When's the last time you saw an emu in the national 
headlines?  Or a parent?  Or a teacher?  Or a social worker?  Or a cop?
Pedophiles come from EVERY walk of life.  Or didn't you know?  Huh?

> The Church has decreed that its priests are indeed morally superior to
> the common man, and are capable of such self control that they are

DO YOU HAVE A COPY OF THAT DECREE?  (Definition - Decree - Something WRITTEN
DOWN as a law, tradition or rule).

> expected to maintain the unnatural state of forced celibacy for the rest
> of their chuch careers.

Baloney says I.  The priesthood is like any other vocation in one respect.  You
can leave it if you so choose not to be celibate.  No, I think you are treating
this issue with as much superficiallity as the rest of the issues we are
discussing here.
 
> >The fact is neither the community, the family, the church, the school, the law,
> >has yet figured out how to deal with this problem.
> 
> I was under the impression that there is still a kind of statutory rape
> law, that it is illegal to have sex with someone younger than N years
> regardless of the circumstances or consent. Certainly pornography

Now isn't that interesting.  The law!  Well, there was a law against abortion
also until several months ago when the Supreme Court of Canada struck it down
and left the country in one mell of a hess regarding the issue.  The law, sir,
is not infallible.  In fact, many times it is dead wrong!

> 2) Because the Roman Catholic Church, more than other religions,
> believes that sexual union is only for the purpose of procreation, and
> still believes homosexuality (sodomy) to be a sin against God;

Sorry, homosexuality and sodomy are not the same thing.  You can have sodomy
between a male and a female.  Homosexuality is a sin against your own life.  A
sin in which you put your own life at risk, (and the live of others whom you
may never see, may never know).
 
If we follow the thinking that has been going on in this discussion, LET'S PUT
GAYS (who engage in sexual activity) IN JAIL!  Now there's a solution!  In
fact, since you might spread herpes by heterosexual contact, let's PUT THEM IN
JAIL TOO!  In fact, LET'S PUT EVERYBODY IN JAIL!  Just think of the money you'd
save society.  No more trials!  No more lawyers!  No more juries!  Wow.
Whaddya think of that solution?  Forward thinking, eh?

Pretty soon most of our society will be in jail anyhow if we continue to treat
social problems as criminal matters.  Then we can give up medicare, defence,
unemployment insurance, and ice cream cones!  We can send all our money to the
jails!  We can raise funds to support our jails!  We can form "Friends of the
Jail System" Societies.  We can drop all educational support for children.  But
it won't matter, because WE'LL ALL BE IN JAIL!

> 3) Because the Roman Catholic Church, more than any other religion,
> loves to instruct the world on such proper sexual conduct;
 
Yes, and from what I see of the world's current sexual conduct, it appears that
nobody has been listening anyhow, so why make such a big deal about it?

> >Brad, this is not only a crime, it is also a SOCIAL PROBLEM.
> 
> In this situation, it is even more than that. It is a matter of
> corruption. Not financial, but moral corruption of leaders who are given
> special responsibility, such as running schools, because of
> their perceived moral judgement.

A John Bircher.  Gawd, I thought you guys were extinct now.

> >It is also a VALUE PROBLEM that
> >arises from our incapacity to discipline (O, O, a bad word!) ouselves in our
> >endless searching for sensual gratification and our insistence that children,
> >from the time time they are conceived in a mother's womb, are disposable pieces
> >of property, to be aborted at will and to use to satisfy our own needs whenever
> >we, in society, see fit.
> 
> Oh, brother. Please give more detail about the connection between the
> abortion issue and these priests' actions, or their church's subsequent
> conduct regarding them.

Read this article.  It starts ten lines above this point!

> If so many of the leaders can crack, how are laypeople expected to
> follow the discipline, or even believe it useful? If anything, the
> church's lack of response to this issue may *hurt* its moral credibility
> in the future when dealing with unrelated issues like abortion.

In fact, what has happened makes me believe in the church even more!  It's
filled with HUMAN BEANS!  Struggling, hurting, masses of humanity.  Just the
people who belong there!  Mind you, there are those who don't belong there -
these are the self-righteous, the strong, those "who have no need of a
physician..."  Like us, y'know!  :-)
 
> The media loves this for the same reason it loves the Pete Rose gambling
> scandal, the tribulations of Jim Bakker, or the current revolving door
> of politics in Japan. Popular heroes and leaders are given special moral
> status (and sometimes paid handsomely) because of what they represent.
> People love to watch the fall of those who don't live up to the
> expectations - especially those whose position exists *because* of
> their morals.
 
The media loves this because it sells papers, period!  

> Pete Rose also has a sickness, which and has (in the minds of some)
> tarnished the reputation of his entire sport. That hasn't kept the Johnny
> Carsons of the world from getting lots of monologue mileage out of it.
 
Oh yeah.  The Reverend Jimmy Carson.  Pastor of the late night television
evangelists.  Listen to him!  He'll not lead you astray.  Two broken marriages
and earnings in the six figure range.  But he speaks the truth!  The church
doesn't, but HE IS INFALLIBLE!  Wow!

> These priests have embarassed their church and humiliated their
> communities. They deserve whatever they get - maybe more.

If you don't like the church, why do you care?  Don't you think they have
humiliated themselves also, just a little bit?  Don't you think that if they
could stop their bahavior, they would?  Instead of speaking from the back of a
very high horse, why don't you go down to your local prison - they have one in
your community.  Go in and meet some of the inmates.  In fact, go into the
protective custody unit.  MAYBE YOU'LL MEET A SEX OFFENDER!  Sit down and talk
to him/her.  The first thing that will strike you is the fact they are human!
Just maybe you'll come out of there a little more informed.