Path: utzoo!utgpu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!psuvax1!ukma!xanth!mcnc!decvax!virgin!zinn!pulsar!gmd
From: gmd@pulsar.UUCP (George MacDonald)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Re: Minix, Unix on the Amiga, and flames - Extingushed - fizzle
Message-ID: <1201.AA1201@pulsar>
Date: 11 Aug 89 05:57:09 GMT
Followup-To: comp.sys.amiga
Lines: 151



>  *sigh*  Here I go again.

Geesh what a lot to respond too, I'll cut it down to just a couple of points

> Kevin> I'll agree with you that AmigaDOS is half way decent for the
> Kevin> user interface, although from a programmer's standpoint, the
> Kevin> operating system itself is about the buggiest thing I have ever
> Kevin> seen.  When my Amiga crashes CLI's for no apparent reason, I
> Kevin> would tend to think there must be something better out there,
> Kevin> especially since Minix comes with SOURCE CODE!!!!

Get Real!! My amiga runs for days/weeks on end without crashing. In
some ways it's been more reliable than my sun's at work with their
new major OS release 4.0/4.0.1/4.0.2/4.0.3 ...... It's not the OS that's
causing your problems.

I run all sorts of stuff i.e. DCRON/AmigaUUCP/pyro/backdrop/wicon/mclk/
virusx/ all the time!!

Then I run a lot of the following doing all sorts of business things -
Word processing, Accounting, mail, logging into various sites ....

Directory of Work:c
 14compress         AmigaCron          Anews              Anews-SetUp       
 Brun               Compress           Detab              Entab             
 ErrorLOG           From               GPrint             Head              
 IconImage          Mail               Man                More              
 New_Mail           New_News           OnePlane           Play8SVX          
 Pnews-E            Pnews-M            PostNews           Pyro              
 ReadMsg            Rmail              Rnews              RunBack           
 SetFont            Shar               ShowFont           TSnip             
 Tail               Tee                Trunc              UUCP              
 UUhosts            UUlog              UnBatcher          UnShar            
 ViewILBM           VirusX             arc                backdrop          
 booz               calls              csh                dcron             
 file               files              flow               fold              
 fts                ispell             less               lpr               
 mclk               news_filter.sh     newzap             nro               
 prnro              profile            qcat               qt                
 smush              stevie             strings            subj.bak          
 subj.sh            tar                tek                uls               
 unbatchfc          ushow              uuCICO             uuDECODE          
 uuENCODE           uuNAME             uuPOLL             uuX               
 uuXQT              vi                 vt100              warp              
 wc                 whatcpu            whereis            wicon             
 xicon              zoo               

Most of these are very reliable public domain programs that make life on
the Amiga a joy!!!  

> First, I think AmigaDOS's UI sucks.  But that depends to a degree on
> what you're used to.  I'm used to Unix, and I find AmigaDOS annoying
> and clumsy, and often frustratingly limiting.

What a load of absolute drivel!! AmigaDOS is not that much different than
unix sh, CLI is even better in some way's. More natural history than csh/ksh
and more consistent arguments than the multitude of unix programs.
If you miss *.?[0-9]funky.stuff then get the csh for the amiga. I use it
all the time now, it's reliable and I don't have to think about which
machine I'm on.

What IS poor is the BCPL shit showing up in the programming interface.
                         ^
						 |
Your point is well taken, your language is not!! Read NETTIQUETE AGAIN!!

>I don't see that Minix/Unix on an Amiga need be any more of a headache
>for system maintenance and administration than AmigaDOS itself is.
>Yes, Unix is multiuser, but that doesn't need to complicate things
>much.  Managing an AmigaDOS system well can be a lot of work as well.
>[unless you LIKE using only the stock configuration...]

Having just repaired my hard drive on the amiga and debugging a new disk
installation on some sun systems I would say the amiga is A LOT easier to 
deal with!! It is much better at fixing the file system, diskdoctor is
easier to use than fsck/fsdb.


> Bernie> There are also other disadvantages to Unix-like systems.  I've
> Bernie> not seen one yet that had decent real-time response.

> And how often do you run across Unix systems without MMUs?  Virtual
> memory can slow a system way down.  (So much easier on the Amiga, it
> just crashes.)  Real-time Unix systems DO exist.  Most are not.  The
> Amiga Exec OS achieves excellent response by not supporting VM,
> message-passing by reference, strict task prioritizing and other such
> little tricks.  They can work nicely and attain impressive speed and
> response time, but there ARE clear drawbacks.
                                     ^
									 |
You really mean good design decisions and clear tradeoffs. 
No system can give you everything, the amiga operating system gives perhaps
the best single user co-operative multitasking system available today.
Virtual Memory and protected systems are only really required in multi-user
systems when one needs protection from other users. I am willing to trade 
the advantage of VM on MY machine to achieve maximum response. The Amiga
has done a very good job at this, my 2500 FEELS very fast and very smooth.
I never run out of memory an IF the machine crashes I know instantly who
caused it, ME not some one else hacking on a device driver.

> The responsiveness of Exec is excellent.  AmigaDOS isn't always so
> hot.  Consider directory scans, a VERY common operation, which is
> slow as all hell.  [and don't bother to mention FFS -- it's
> backpatching to make the file system what it should've been to begin
> with.]

There is still room to improve FFS, perhaps caching the file names in a
fname block list. This would provide a quick dir at the exspense of more
work when adding/deleting files/dirs. Also the disk can be packed more 
efficently, without messing with the basic model of file system structure.
And FFS is not THAT different than the original file system.


> Bernie> There is also a more elegance of design to the AmigaDos
> Bernie> system.

> AmigaDOS?  More elegant than Unix?  Don't make me laugh.

The model of devices being dynamically loaded entities is just NOW 
being added to unix as is shared libaries and er um windows. Each OS
has some winning "features" and each has some things not to be proud of.


> Bernie> but it's the utilities!

Finally a meaningful comment!! But then spoiled by foul language again!!

> Bernie> Life is not worth living if I can't come in early in the morning
> Bernie> and grep a few files to start my day.  With make, diff, awk,
> Bernie> etc. etc. etc. life is so much easier.

Oh you mean like the make, diff, egrep, sed, tee, ... on MY amiga
Of course I just need to click on that cute little box in the upper right
and pop up my vt100 window which automatically logged into the Sun just
as I got up. Geesh and I haven't even finished eating breakfast yet!!!

> Yes.

See you knew I was right 8-).



Go ahead, make myday

--
      /\  George MacDonald, Pulsar Software Inc. - Unix Software Consultants
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