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From: jamesa@amadeus.la.tek.com (James Akiyama)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: thoughts on the recent exchange
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Date: 12 Aug 89 01:46:56 GMT
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Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu



Dave Mielke writes:

> One of the major trends these days, a time when the Scriptures teach
> that more and more congregations will become apostate, is to
> concentrate on the love of God, to minimize, if not ignore, the wrath
> of God, and to start philosophizzing that a loving God would not really
> sentence people to eternal damnation in a place as horrifying as hell.

I once heard an interesting discussion on this.  Basically it asks what
attribute comes the closest to describing God.  Most of the people answered
"Love".  The professor (from Western Seminaries here in Portland who was giving
the lecture) indicated that he believed the single most important attribute
is God's holiness.  Some of his reasonings were as follows:

    a.	Holiness is by far, the attribute most often attributed to God in
	Scriptures; attributed far more times than His love (he gave the
	exact number of times each were attributed to God, but I don't
	remember).

    b.	Holiness was the underlying premise for why Christ had to die in the
	first place.  The penalty for sin had to be paid.  God's love for man
	resulted in the sacrifice, but it is God's holiness which required
	the payment in the first place.

    c.	One of the ways, in both Hebrew and Greek, that something is
	emphasized, is to repeat it.  Scripture never says God is "love, love,
	love".  Scripture does make such a statement to His holiness, as
	shown below:

	ISA 6:3  And they were calling to one another: "Holy, holy, holy is
	  the Lord Almighty; the whole earth is full of his glory."

	REV 4:8  Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was
	  covered with eyes all around, even under his wings. Day and night
	  they never stop saying: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty,
	  who was, and is, and is to come."

There were many other reasons; these are the ones I remember.  

Dave Mielke writes:

> If anyone can find it in his heart to willingly sin just because he believes
> that it has been forgiven then I would strongly suggest that he have serious
> doubts regarding whether he had really and truly accepted Christ as his
> saviour.

I can not buy this one.  I believe there are those who may make a conscious
effort to "believe" they are saved, but will know, deep inside, that they are
not; that they have fallen short of God's glory, and know they are not covered
by His grace.  However, I believe that those who truly believe that they are
saved, are.

As far as people "willing" sinning not being saved, I also have a problem here.
David "willing sinned" with Bathsheba.  How long does "fornication" or any
other sin constitute "unsavable sin"; one day, a week, month.  I believe that
it is possible for a believer to "live in sin"; he'll be miserable, but still
is saved.

Salvation is thru faith, not works.  Of course this has to be contrasted to
James 2:17:

	In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action,
 	is dead.

My belief here is that faith is always accompanied by good works.  But good
works does not imply freedom from sin.  A believer can show good works in some
parts of his life, and yet remain sinful in other parts.  Faith without any
works is an unbelieving faith.  But I believe that the person will know that he
was not saved.  One argument oftentimes used against this point is Mat 7:21-23:

	MAT 7:21  "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the
	  kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is
	  in heaven.

	MAT 7:22  Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not
	  prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform
	  many miracles?'

	MAT 7:23  Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from
	  me, you evildoers!'

Note that in this example the person tries to justify his salvation thru works,
not faith.  He knew that his works was short of God; but attempted
justification thru works because he knew there was no faith.

Dave Mielke writes:

> Asking someone I know to engage in a sin worthy of hell just so that I can
> experience a few short-term pleasures is extremely selfish and uncaring, and
> is in no way acting in the best interests of the other person.

Most sin is extremely selfish and uncaring, even to the unbeliever.

Dave Mielke writes:

> As you are probably aware from other postings, I have come to realize that
> God actually hates those whom He has not elected to save. You may find this
> controvercial and difficult to believe, but I urge you to research it
> carefully, looking at the Scriptures that I have quoted in those other
> postings.
>
> If nothing whatsoever can separate us from the love of God, and if we agree
> that those whom God loves must be saved, then how would you rationalize the
> fact that most of the people in this world die unsaved? The Scriptures teach
> that many are on the broad way to destruction and only a few are on the
> narrow way to eternal life.  God could not have loved those numerous people
> who have died unsaved because hell will separate them from His love.

Again, this is a place where I have to disagree with Dave.  I believe that God
hates the sin but loves the sinner.

I believe that Dave's statement that nothing can separate us from the love of
God is only applicable to believers.  God is extending His love to all of
mankind, but only some will respond.  Those who do, God promises to never
leave, while those who don't have, themselves, turned away from His love;
He does not turn away from them.

I oftentimes look at the book of Genesis, after Adam and Eve sinned.  It was
not God who "hid" or left Adam, but rather Adam who hid from God.  I believe
that sin does not actually keep God from reaching out towards us, but rather
keeps us from reaching out towards God.

	GEN 3:8  Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as
	  he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid
	  from the Lord God among the trees of the garden.

	GEN 3:9  But the Lord God called to the man, "Where are you?"

	GEN 3:10  He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid
	  because I was naked; so I hid."

	GEN 3:11  And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you
	  eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"

I believe that in some sense, God's concept of love is different than ours.
We tend to think of love in spite of all other attributes (as an example,
"white lies", etc.).  God's view of love remains consistent with His other
attributes.  At some point our vision of His holiness, which is in perfect
harmony with His love (but perhaps uncomprehensibly so in light of our finite
minds) comes into play.  God must have justice.  Some (the Jehovah Witness is
an example) believes that unbelievers fall into a state of unconciousness or
non-existence.  This, in my opinion, undermines His justice.

These verses bring up another point that Dave makes:

> No, I am not saying that I believe that someone who has truly accepted
> Christ as his saviour will be turned away. Jesus is telling us that
> there will be many who think they have even though they haven't. I can
> only truly accept Jesus as my saviour if I have truly faced exactly
> what I need to be saved from and why. If, for example, God says that I
> deserve to suffer eternally in hell for my sins and that that is what I
> need to be saved from, yet I deny the existence of hell and thereby
> deny the fact that I deserve to suffer it, then I have not really
> accepted Him as my saviour. If God teaches that Jesus is God Himself
> become a man to personally endure the penalty for my sins, yet I do not
> believe that Jesus is God, then I have not truly accepted Him as my
> saviour because I have not accepted Him for who He really is.

The problem I have here is what about those who died not fully knowing
Christ?  What happens if they wanted to follow Christ but had not yet fully
grasped His glory?  I believe (this is really starting to become opinionated)
that you are only accountable for what you know.  Adam had not sinned from
his nakedness until he ate of the fruit and noticed he was naked.  He was
always naked; but did not become afraid until after eating from the tree of
knowledge.

This reasoning is further shown when Paul talks about eating meat:

	ROM 14:14  As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that
	  no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as
	  unclean, then for him it is unclean.
	
	ROM 14:15  If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you
	  are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your
	  brother for whom Christ died.

It comes down to the fact that God judges us by our heart; we are taught in
1 Corinthians that knowledge, prosphesy, and tongues will pass away; they are
not the measures God judges us; if he did we would all fall short.  Only love
(our heart) continues, and it is thru our love that we are judged.

This is rather long winded, and I apologize for that.

James E. Akiyama
jamesa@amadeus.LA.TEK.COM
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