Path: utzoo!utgpu!attcan!uunet!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: mls@mhuxu.att.com (Michael L Siemon) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: secondary causation Message-ID:Date: 12 Aug 89 01:42:41 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories Lines: 42 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu I'm picking up on the moderator's comment, rather than on Lance Beckner's questions: > The classic answer to 1 is that in predestination God uses secondary > causes. That is, when God decides that someone is going to be saved, > he also sets up the way that this will happen. I'm afraid my mind goes into a state of dissociation at about this point in the development. Assuming that God works through "secondary causes" it becomes totally unclear to me what sense "cause" has in the discussion. At that point, the doctrine of predestination seems to have as its only content an affirmation that there is no other (ultimate) power but God and that subsidiary causes must all be viewed as deriving from God's will. Which I don't dispute, but I don't see much point to it in that case. In other words, I can vaguely understand predestination as a sort of backhanded way to deny Manichean dualism. But I am at a loss to understand any positive signficance for the doctrine. Would anyone care to explain? (This is an open invitation to the moderator or anyone else who wants to take a stab at it.) -- Michael L. Siemon I say "You are gods, sons of the cucard!dasys1!mls Most High, all of you; nevertheless att!sfbat!mls you shall die like men, and fall standard disclaimer like any prince." Psalm 82:6-7 [I have a feeling this issue has already come up before, but maybe I'm remembering something in talk.religion.misc. I object to predestination when it is presented as intellectual speculation. So I am quite sympathetic with your concern to give it a positive significance. I think there are several. For Luther, the main importance of election seems to be its connection with grace. For him, it was good news because it means that his salvation is based, not on anything he did, but on a decision by God. Another concern, which I think is more evident in Calvin, is the connection with providence. Christians are asked to believe that everything that happens is under God's control. Thus we are to have confidence that whatever happens to us is meant by God for our good. (I admit that in many cases this is hard to see.) In order for this to be true, we must believe that every human action is part of God's plan. --clh]