Path: utzoo!utgpu!watmath!clyde!att!osu-cis!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!sm.unisys.com!mlogic!marcel From: marcel@mlogic.UUCP (Marcel Samek) Newsgroups: comp.misc Subject: Re: I'm pro Russian Summary: yet another flame Keywords: soviet, usenet Message-ID: <133@mlogic.UUCP> Date: 30 Nov 88 03:01:25 GMT References: <5569@sdcsvax.UCSD.EDU> Reply-To: marcel@mlogic.UUCP (Marcel Samek) Organization: Media Logic, Inc., Santa Monica, CA Lines: 94 In article <5569@sdcsvax.UCSD.EDU> nschraudolph@ucsd.edu (Nici Schraudolph) writes: >Here are my 2c as a European who has been following this discussion: More specifically you are a Western European. I am an American who originally comes from Eastern Europe, and with all due respect I think that your posting illustrates that simply being from Europe, as you are, does not spare you from exhibiting the same 'glorious ignorance' which you accuse Americans of having a monopoly on. > [miscellaneous ramblings on 'propaganda machines' deleted] >The proof is right here in the enormous volume of preconceived, biased, >even naive views of life in the Soviet Union that that have been voiced >in this discussion. Yes, I agree with you perfectly. Many (if not most) Americans have frustratingly naive notions of what life behind the iron curtain is really like. Their ideas, however, are not naive because they have biased and negative preconceptions; their ideas are naive because they are clueless as to how opressive and dehumanizing life behind the iron curtain really is. In this resepect, as a 'European' who considers himself as liberated from the ignorance which blinds Americans, I find that you a lot more naive and blind than those you complain about. > >I admit I am not immune to infiltration by the media - there is an antidote, >however, that I like to use: frequent exposure to other cultures - travel! >The more places I've been to, the more I realise that people are people, >politicians are mostly corrupt, and military should be dumped in outer space >wherever you find them, including both in the U.S. and the S.U.! I think that maybe you ought to try living in Czechoslovakia, for example, for a while. If, after that, you still judge politicians on both sides of the iron curtain by the same scale then I think that your naivete springs not from ignorance but rather an insitence on seeing the world the way you want to see it. > >All you have to do is travel to Europe, and the distinction between OUR >rockets and THEIR rockets is meaningless: my West German hometown, for Yes, and during WWII, as far as any soldier caught in a crossfire was concerned, the difference between German bullets and American bullets was also meaningless; he would get killed by either. The situation then, however, was more important than can be judged by which bullet took one soldiers life, and the situation now is more complicated than whose bomb destroys your hometown, or all of Germany for that matter. If you really believe what you write here, then your arrogance and ignorance is a poor reflection on the intellectual and moral attitudes of those 'Europeans' who consider themselves untarnished by American naivete. >Have you ever thought about how YOU (sorry about the generalisation) could >benefit from this link? Like, getting some better idea about how life in Yes I am sure that many Westerners would benefit by direct contact with those behind the iron curtain. I am also sure that many individuals behind the iron curtain would benefit by direct contacts with Westerners. I have no quarrel with either. I do, however, vehemently oppose the legitimization of tyrannical regimes by continued normal relations. The Soviets and their puppet states wish desperately to be recognized as legitimate players in western life; the tearing down of communication barriers by the free world is an indication of such acceptance. Whether it benefits 'us', or 'them', until the totalitarian regimes in the Eastern block grant some basic human rights to the citizens of those countries, I consider it very naive and short sighted to pretend that 'they' are just like 'us'. > >Sorry about the length and semi-flame nature of this, but I have silently >endured the glorious ignorance the majority of Americans exhibit when it >comes to international affairs for half a year now: ever since I moved >here. I just had to get this off my chest now. I honestly sympathize with you since I feel the same frustration as you do, just from a different viewpoint. At the risk of being accused of generalizing as grossly as you did, I will conclude with this blatant flame. My frustration at the general ignorance of Americans when it comes to international affairs is only exceeded by my frustration at the arrogance which Western Europeans exhibit when it comes to the same topic. My general impression is that many do not care what kind of squalor or oppression the rest of the world lives in as long as they themselves are not threatened in any manner. It is sad to see such pervasive self centerdness and short sightedness in countries which I feel close ties to and feel very fond of. -- Marcel A. Samek | Media Logic Incorporated | 2501 Colorado Blvd. Suite 350 ARPA: mlogic!marcel@unisys.sm.com | Santa Monica, CA 90404 UUCP: ...sdcrdcf!mlogic!marcel | (213) 453-7744