Xref: utzoo comp.edu:1517 sci.math:5063 sci.physics:5095
Path: utzoo!utgpu!watmath!clyde!att!whuts!homxb!homxc!bgt
From: bgt@homxc.UUCP (B.TONGUE)
Newsgroups: comp.edu,sci.math,sci.physics
Subject: Re: Student and Course Integrity  (was Rising cost of textbooks)
Summary: apathy
Message-ID: <4526@homxc.UUCP>
Date: 9 Dec 88 20:53:45 GMT
References: <1131@osupyr.mast.ohio-state.edu> <1887@sun.soe.clarkson.edu>
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Holmdel
Lines: 77

In article <1887@sun.soe.clarkson.edu>, jk0@clutx.clarkson.edu (Jason Coughlin,221 Rey,,) writes:
> 
> 	Enough professors now (like try to find one who hasn't!) have stated
>   that they feel their courses and the books that they use have degenerated,
>   and they attribute this degeneration to their students. 

Before I add my 2 cents' worth of opinion, I'd like to give a bit of 
background on myself and my career.  I was a math major from Rutgers
University, class of '86, founded the Rutgers University Math Club,
and obtained gainful employment from Tandy/Radio Shack (computer marketer,
lasted 3 months 2 days - I can't sell my way out of a wet paper bag,)
The Prudential (financial consultant - read "insurance marketer,") back
to the Shack as a Senior Systems Engineer/Educational Support Specialist,
to my current (and hopefully last!) position as a systems designer for
AT&T Bell Labs.  The article to which I'm replying contains issues that
the Rutgers Math Club tried to address, some with success and some
woefully without.


>  So what's really
>   happening here?  Are all the professors wrong?  Do the professors expect too
>   much of us today?  Or is it really the students?  And if it IS the students,
>   what's happened?  Is it a loss of motivation (, and just what are we
>   motivated to do these days)?  I think this is a VERY important issue which
>   needs to be addressed, and maybe solved?
> 

I was of the opinion then, and I am still of the opinion now, that the
majority of students in the general sciences courses are for the most
part just plain apathetic.  Many students approach mathematics as a 
subject to be passed and buried as quickly as possible; after all,
corporations today aren't exactly beating down the doors of math
majors, thus not giving an incentive for proficiency to the graduates
of tomorrow.  This is wrong, for I've discovered that it wasn't the
formulas I memorized which helped me in my career today, but instead
the patterns of logical deduction upon which mathematics is
built.  But is that aspect emphasized to the students?

This brings up another question.  *Should* it be emphasized?
If a student lacks motivation to learn for the sheer joy of education,
why should professors extend themselves pointlessly?  One of the
major complaints from students is the eons-old adage, "Publish
or Perish" - often this happens at the expense of the students.
I think we will all agree that both teaching and research is
important, but has there ever been a case of a professor obtaining
tenure because he makes mathematics come alive for the students
while at the same time publishing nil?  On the other hand, has
a tremendous researcher ever *failed* to obtain tenure, even
when his students suffer from his lack of commitment in the
area of education?

This is a double-edged sword.  The potential is there, but it
cannot be solely the professor's duty to offer support - students 
must be receptive as well.  I remember one of my professors
offering extended office hours after 1/2 half of the class 
failed the first hourly (senior-level course) - not one person
showed up!  Great incentive for a continued interest in "reaching"
the students!  One of my meetings concerned "Departmental Policies -
voice your concerns!"  Six students showed up, and four of us
were the officers!  With those kind of conditions, it's under-
standable that professors at times believe the students couldn't
care less - it's admirably demonstrated time and time again.

There has to be a time when a student takes responsibility for
their own education; they have to give as much as does the
professor.  But how can that be communicated?  And when will
universities place upon student education the same emphasis
that is bestowed upon research?
 



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