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From: duncan@geppetto.ctt.bellcore.com (Scott Duncan)
Newsgroups: comp.edu,sci.math,sci.physics
Subject: Re: Student and Course Integrity  (was Rising cost of textbooks)
Message-ID: <12483@bellcore.bellcore.com>
Date: 9 Dec 88 21:37:09 GMT
References: <1131@osupyr.mast.ohio-state.edu> <1887@sun.soe.clarkson.edu> <1057@l.cc.purdue.edu>
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Reply-To: duncan@ctt.bellcore.com (Scott Duncan)
Organization: Computer Technology Transfer, Bellcore
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In article <1057@l.cc.purdue.edu> cik@l.cc.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:
>3.  It is not just a problem of mathematics, but the idea that one learns for
>the future, and not just for the grade in the current class, seems to have
>disappeared.

While I think I have a feeling for what is meant here, I must admit that, in
many ways, even 20+ years ago when I was in college, the purpose of learning
was pretty vague.  College faculty did not make a big deal of why you were
learning, except, of course, to go on to the next degree program.  So, if you
wanted to be critical, it was a self-serving image presented.  I never felt
it was that, as I loved to study and learn, and faculty encouraged me greatly
and life was great.  However, I did NOT sense any great direction from them
when I participated in general class situations, i.e., they were encouraging
to me personally but pretty vague about why you were there in an open class
situation.  Love of learning sort of came through, but no sense of future.

>5.  The teachers at the elementary and secondary levels can only teach
>plug-and-chug operations.  Even proofs are memorized.  The students expect
>such, and object to a teacher even mentioning anything else.  They consider
>it an intolerable imposition on them if an examination question is given 
>which cannot be done by following exactly the steps of a problem in class.
>There is resentment of taking class time to give an understanding of the
>material.  Any statement made by the teacher is at least implicitly 
>challenged by "Is this going to be on the final?"  Not whether it will
>help in doing the exams, but whether it will be explicitly on the exams.

This was true when I was a graduate assistant 20 years ago, too.

>6.  At the college level, it is politically difficult to require that the
>students have knowledge prerequisites.  That someone got A's in their high
>school mathematics courses is no guarantee that s/he know anything from 
>high school mathematics.  That someone got an A in last term's calculus
>course is no guarantee that the material of that course can be used in this
>one.  I have advocated that knowledge prerequisites be used, and that 
>remedial courses be provided, and even taught with the understanding that,
>while it may be on the students' records, some of the students may not even
>have seen the relevant material.

I tried to solve this by having my own standards for what had to be known.
If someone was lacking, as a teacher, I tried to help them make it up.  But
there were always limits, and I pointed this out to people.  I made it clear
to those supervising me (as a graduate assistant) what I expected and they
always felt comfortable with it.  If a student complained about the help I
was able to give, the supervising faculty checked it out.  I never had to
explain myself and the student ended up getting the message.

Perhaps I was just lucky, but I established what I expected and made the
faculty feel comfortable with that.  As I noted in another posting, I also
let people know at the very outset what they would have to know -- at least
as far as it was under my power to tell them -- for the end of term exam.  I
never suggested they not attend class.  No one ever tried to do so and just
show up for tests.  (Yes, I did have people drop-out, but nothing dramatic.
And it was usually over other problems.)

>8.  Encourage students to think, and to ask questions.  "The only stupid 
>question is the one which is not asked."  Encourage reasoning.  Encourage
>the recognition of structure; while it is sometimes necessary to look at
>the trees, it is important to see the forest.  This is not limited to
>mathematics.

I tried REALLY hard as a graduate assistant to do this.  Not having control
over some final and mid-term exams made this hard.  Even I didn't know what
might be asked, so it was hard to not "cover the material" in some sense.

>10.  We must fight the attempts to reduce out courses to what the badly-
>taught students want.  Can a student judge the quality of teaching in a
>course, especially if the student does not have the prerequisites?  Can
>a student steeped in plug-and-chug appreciate the importance of learning
>concepts?  Should the evaluations by such students be considered in
>deciding promotion, salary, and tenure?

This was a controversy years ago and it seems it has not changed.  I am
pretty ignorant about where this stands today.  What power do students
have over things?

>At least 10 more paragraphs can be written.  The situation is BAD.  Our
>Ph.D. programs are now dominated by foreign students, because the 
>American ones do not exist.  I have put forth some suggestions.

Is this suggesting something wrong with having good foreign students.  If the
point is to bemoan the state of public education in this country, I think a
better way to express it could have been found.  It sounds like the aim is to
be sure "foreign students" don't "dominate" us rather than to just worry
about improving our educational practices.  (sorry if I'm wrong but it sounds
like a condemnation of foreign students.)


Speaking only for myself, of course, I am...
Scott P. Duncan (duncan@ctt.bellcore.com OR ...!bellcore!ctt!duncan)
                (Bellcore, 444 Hoes Lane  RRC 1H-210, Piscataway, NJ  08854)
                (201-699-3910 (w)   201-463-3683 (h))