Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!lll-winken!lll-tis!helios.ee.lbl.gov!pasteur!agate!booter%deimos@ads.com From: booter%deimos@ads.com (Elaine Richards) Newsgroups: comp.society.women Subject: Re: Women Wizards? Message-ID: <11844@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> Date: 8 Jul 88 21:55:26 GMT References: <11734@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> <11790@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> Sender: usenet@agate.BERKELEY.EDU Organization: The Trenches of CFG Lines: 87 Approved: skyler@violet.berkeley.edu (Moderator -- Trish Roberts) Comments-to: comp-women-request@cs.purdue.edu Submissions-to: comp-women@cs.purdue.edu In article <11790@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> sri-unix!maslak@decwrl.dec.com (Valerie Maslak) writes: > >Marcia, > >But look at how it works... > >The original hackers, the guys that PBS had the profile of, were >mostly men the average person would call "nerds," antisocial, >socially inept....that's why they were in their garage building >computers instead of out dancing, right? :-) I'm serious, I knew >some of them. The guys who talk Forth and sleep with their mother boards. That was the first Hackers Conference held about 2-3 years ago. > [in-club of dudes clustered together imagery] > >And that is NOT a woman. So there are no/few role models and an >in-club mentality that is the equivalent of an old-boys network... >rituals, even. And these fellows aren't comfortable with women by >and large, so a woman who tries to get in to the club, well, she's >an alien species. She may be tolerated, but she doesn't fit in, >belong. Probably she gets discouraged, leaves, quits. Not necessarily. Easygoing people are welcome anywhere. I was invited to, and attended the second Hackers Conference and did not feel like and alien or that I did not fit in. At worst, I felt a little star struck by some of the interesting people there. I joshed people around, came off in a non-threatening way (yes, many power hackers are shy) and did not walk around like a Bundle of Issues the way many women do in such circumstances. Also, I am pretty androgynous and a lot of bash- ful men feel a little threatened by super-fem women (and macho men I might add :-)) As for getting discouraged by hacking, that happens periodically where I feel like the asteroid among the stars. Every time I have admitted I feel ...well..inadequate, I get a big pep talk. I have had pep talks from John Gilmore, Don Hopkins, Erik Fair, half of UNIPRESS, etc. There are exclusionary types. When I have mentioned their names to Notables in the UNIX World, the word "asshole" usually passes wizardly lips. Old boy types are scorned and they more often than not do that exclusionary shit to novice male hackers too. They seem to think that hacking is a fraternity Hell Week where you haze the frosh. > >And besides, so many women get routed into support or applications >and NOT into the deep technical inner sanctum, anyway. Still. >Although that's changing, but slowly. Slowly. > It is changing, yes. It is visibly changing too. Support work in a tech company pays a hell of a lot better than support work in most other professions. I am pretty much a sysadmin type and the pay is twice what I was getting as a paralegal. Seeing a woman at the console is a good way of reminding the Old Boys that women can jockey a mainframe around, thakyouverymuch. >And you miss the point, you see, because the wizards aren't really >support types. Sure they give solutions, but they're not HELPERS, >not service oriented. The do what they do and if it helps you, fine. >But helping you is not the goal: solving the puzzle IS. >And they have to be gutsy and a demon and all those things women are >still just learning to be in pursuit of a goal that doesn't help >others. > Pull a wizard into your puzzle. If your puzzle is interesting, you will get all kinds of help. >Little girls and their dolls, little boys and their machine toys. >Erector sets. Computers. Gee, I had both :-) > >No, we're still a long way from breaking down all the barriers. >We're not excluded, maybe, but we're sure not included. > >Valerie Maslak Well, it ain't a picnic, but it is no Vale of Tears either. ER