Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!lll-winken!lll-tis!helios.ee.lbl.gov!pasteur!ucbvax!pro-pac.cts.COM!tsouth From: tsouth@pro-pac.cts.COM (Todd South) Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple Subject: Re: Danger of IIgs+ Message-ID: <8806061536.AA11762@crash.cts.com> Date: 6 Jun 88 12:55:54 GMT Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU Reply-To: pnet01!pro-simasd!pro-pac!tsouth@nosc.mil Organization: The Internet Lines: 196 In Article: <8806052321.aa19345@SMOKE.BRL.ARPA> PGOETZ@LOYVAX.BITNET (Phil Goetz) writes: > The possible introduction of the IIgs+ poses a grave danger to > consumers. It lies in the well-known inverse relationship between computers > and owners: that the most ignorant users own the most powerful personal > computers, while the most experienced hackers often own systems that would > have been laughed at eight years ago. [Dribble about Timex computers] _|_ __ |_ In the interest of the world Apple community I feel that \ \____/ \_________________________________ this misguided perception \, ___ / / /\ truly needs to have a ) / \((((((______A.C.M.E._Flame_Gun___(/\) long and windy rebuttal. / < ON (((((( (\/) So, you have been warned ( o \___/ \____\___________________________\/ and if you wish to continue \ .......\ with this message I certainly )....... > hope that you consider the implications of some of the /....... / opinions, and the implications of the opinions from /....... / Phil. This is what a number of people at Apple, who control /....... / the marketting of the Apple //gs actually think is true. This <________/ *may* be one of the reasons that //gs owners are running at 2.8 Mhz! Read on. . . > The relation between users and machines is evident in the history of the > Apple II line. Owners of the original Apple II were hobbyists who often got > their Apple with the specific intentions of rewiring the motherboard to see > what would happen. Owners of the II+ were on the whole not as deeply > into electronics, but were not afraid to install various proven hacks > on their motherboard, or at least to do the shift-key mod and video EPROM > installation themselves. They still are hobbyist, but now they want something better than 1 Mhz. Unfortunately, they are not a couple of things though: - They are not rich, and since new motherboards do not come cheaply and are neither socketed nor have schematics published freely, it is rather hard to play with them in this fashion. But, there are a number of things that one can still do -- I like to play with the VGC a lot, but most would people don't want to screw with things which can screw up $2000+ systems that they have saved up for with long hard hours of work. - They are not people that have time to devote to large projects which will take over their lives. Unfortunately, unless you are in the 'business' of selling computers, or writing software for the computers, then you have a rather limited time scale to work with today. I truly feel that one of the worst things about society is growing up. When you are young (well most of us -- this doesn't include rich folks) you do not have a large amount of capital to work with. When you are older, you get the capital, but the time disappears. - Hacking? Well, I guess that all defines what you feel hacking is all about. I program on my system, figure out neat ways to do things faster and more efficiently, and sometimes even do a number of hardware projects with others. Contrary to magazines, A/D and visa versa are still very popular. At least five people I know are currently working on ways to control remote devices through their //gs's. I think this type of activity would constitute electronic hacking, since they are building the interfaces themselves. But, these individuals are unique. Two of them are full-time programmers (and both insane :-) who live to play with electronics and computer concepts. The other three are trying to do something that involves scientific research. The point is, they *are* using the //gs because it has more memory available and a large speedup increase over the previous Apple ][ models. If they could, I'm sure they would have done the same thing with Apple //e's, or ][+'s, or ]['s. But now that they are grown up and have jobs they can afford *better* equipment that runs faster and does more activities! Also, it would have been rather stupid not to buy a //gs since they are the same price (locally) as a //e, and include so much more in the system. > The regression of the users became more visibly apparent with the large > crop of IIe owners. Not only are most of them afraid to so much as change > ROMs, an unknown number of them have no programming ability at all. > Then came the IIc, which Apple specifically designed for the anticipated > next generation of users who would quake at the prospect of inserting a > card into a slot themselves. You are contradicting terms here, Phil. "USERS" are people that use a computer for games, management, and education. Hackers are people that play with computer guts, program on them, and generally stay up till 3 o' clock in the morning to post to the net! :-) :-) What is this regression crap? What is this programming requirement? Why can't people have laptops? That's what the //c was basically made for in the first place! People want laptops for portability. It is rather hard to carry a fully loaded Apple ][ on an airplane, or to a press session. The idea is to get computers to the masses, not keep them as yours or my private toy. Communications between the masses is something that has been lacking in the modern world (read since man has been able to speak). The fact that you and I and everyone else on this network has the ability to speak without someone intercepting our communications and altering them to their own purpose proves the point. The computer revolution will not make us all hackers, programmers, or nerds. But it will bring us all a lot closer and finally prove that we can be human, and not puppets. [Anyone in Russia that might be reading this? Hmmm!?!?!] > Data on IIgs owners is not available to this author, as I have never > met any. I can only say that I fear the worst. Thanks! Now I know that at least you can't demean the Apple ][ people that want a better system with some more theories on hacker ethics and/or lifestyles. > It is generally assumed that less capable users have a higher chance of ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ --- By whom? > buying more powerful machines for various reasons: they don't rush out and > get a machine because it excites them, they are business executives & hence > make more money, etc. But I propose that the machines themselves may > cause brain-damage to their owners. I bring forth this proposal after > repeated observation of rational people who, upon buying IIes or IIcs, > lose this rationality for a kind of pseudoreligon in which the computer > is treated as a holy object which is meant only to run precanned software, > and whose lid may be opened only by members of the Priesthood of Dealers > who have proved their right to work on the machines by successfuly charging > $40 to open the lid. If someone isn't going to install new ROMs on their Apple //gs or //e, it is most likely because most Apple dealers will not sell you the ROMs to install! Brain damage? Did you come over from talk-bizzare or what? Face facts, not everyone is cut out to be a hobbyist, but that doesn't mean that this precludes them from using computers in their everyday lives to help their education, business, and management of personal personal resources Although I don't like to see people go to dealers for simple things, I can't help every Apple ][ owner install something in their system. So, they go to their local dealer, who MAKES A LIVING doing this. What's funny is that your whole idea could be applied to almost any viable personal service market. (e.g., Travel Agents, Accountants, etc...) > I also support this assertion with the observation that Apple Computer > itself has supplied its management with new machines as they became > available, giving them the maximum exposure to powerful new machines. Well hells bells man! Don't you think that Apple deserves to make some money!?! If they can do this by seeding a market then more power to them! But if you are talking about Apple //gs's, I personally would like to see a list of people that Apple gave computers to on a seeding frenzy! > I must therefore caution anyone against buying a IIgs+ before data is > in on its effects on the user. I repeat:The IIgs+ is potentially DANGEROUS. > Due to its great power, even a test drive at a dealership may be hazardous. > Phil Goetz > PGOETZ@LOVAX.bitnet You really blow me away. This is just ridiculous. How can you assert that making a machine better, and selling it openly to the public is going to be dangerous? You sound like a member of a facist group of hackers who believe that if the logic circuit isn't made with full-scale resistors that it will eradicate the hackers of the world. Danger to consumers? A consumer is considered someone who buys a product. How can selling a better computer that does MORE WORK in LESS TIME be a danger? If you are taking the stance that consumers and hackers are in the same definition, then you are definitely somewhere in the stratosphere and I certainly am unable to follow your point. The Apple computer still is the best personal system for my money. It does every- thing I want, and more. But the one thing it definitely lacks is the speed which is standard in open-end computers of comparable value. Not to mention the fact that it has a very silly limitation of graphics modes, drive sizes, and a lack of multitasking capabilty. All in all, I think Apple could have done much better on the //gs than what was released. The problem (IMHO) is hidden in the fact that people want to keep it in a certain market instead of letting it grow into whatever needs it. This is why IBM has the corner on certain markets that Apple will never touch. At THAT critical time, IBM got down off of its pedistal and worked to craft a flexible system which would please both hackers, users, and business people. Apple? Well, they had to create a completely different system (Macs) and start all over again. If not for the services of MicroSoft and a lot of other people that liked the innovation, the Mac would have followed the Apple /// and the Lisa into history (or the trash can). Did you know that the Apple //gs was the best selling computer in 1987 in America? Pretty good, I would think, but Apple still keeps doing neat little things like making netwworking systems for Apple ][ computers which require Macs to facilitate fileserving. Apple still makes things like 1200 baud modems which cost $350 to $400 and do not do anything special (besides taking three months to repair). And now? Well, after looking at dollar signs it appears that the //gs may get an upgrade which should have been in the initial release. And you're bitching? If you truly feel that the //gs is the death of the Apple ][ then you just sit back and play with that original Apple ][ all day long while I am compiling newspapers, financial projections, 3 dimensional molecular models, animated presentations, and more. I (and others I hope) want an Apple ][ which can do all these things and more, while still keeping the hacker in the picture. But face facts, 1 and 2.8 Mhz system just don't hack the growing workload. Todd South -- UUCP: {nosc, ihnp4, cacilj, sdcsvax, hplabs!hp-sdd, sun!ihnp4} ...!crash!pnet01!pro-simasd!pro-pac!tsouth ARPA: crash!pnet01!pro-simasd!pro-pac!tsouth@nosc.MIL INET: tsouth@pro-pac.CTS.COM - BITNET: pro-pac.UUCP!tsouth@PSUVAX1