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From: cycy@isl1.ri.cmu.edu (Christopher Young)
Newsgroups: sci.research,sci.med,talk.rumors,misc.headlines
Subject: Re: A quick restatement for Chris.
Message-ID: <1207@isl1.ri.cmu.edu>
Date: Fri, 26-Jun-87 18:51:29 EDT
Article-I.D.: isl1.1207
Posted: Fri Jun 26 18:51:29 1987
Date-Received: Sun, 5-Jul-87 20:00:51 EDT
References: <6693@allegra.UUCP> <1664@tekcrl.TEK.COM> <1084@aecom.YU.EDU> <291@chemstor.UUCP>
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I'm not a very frequent reader of the net anymore (especially since I've been
deluged with other committments lately), so please forgive the  slow response.

In article <291@chemstor.UUCP>, bob@chemstor.UUCP (Robert Weigel) writes:
>      Thanks Chris.  I appreciate this more explicit response.  It is rather
> interesting that I did graduate as a science teacher.

That's interesting. I was a history major with an emphasis in science and
technology.

> It is important that we realize that people
> with faults just like us write definitions, but science demands that nobody will
> pre-define science for me.  I explained in a response to another recent article,
> my reasons for defining science as I do.  The discrepency between my definition
> and the "accepted" one is fundementally that theirs limits observations data
> to "physical" sensors. (ie. ears, eyes, etc.).  Such science denies information
> that can totally change the "experimental output".  If our "science" is correct,
> then it cannot examine questions such as "what is the meaning of life", because
> there is none!

I will respond to this section on the net since it may be of interest to others.
I will not comment any further on this subject in these groups. I reccomend
redirecting this to the philosophy group.

First of all, if we all have different definitions of science, then the
term becomes much too semantically ambiguous to be useful. It's a like
having the standard definition of a fork (a pronged eating utensil), and
somebody coming along and saying "no! it's a smooth, bowl-like utensil with
a handle on it (spoon)!" It doesn't work. And nobody just sat down and
said "This is what science is from now on". It's been the work and observation
for many philosphers and scientists for centuries from Bacon to Kuhn.
Not only that, if I understand you correctly, you say that science demands
that it cannot be defined for you. However, if it demands that, then it must
already be to some extent defined. Now, perhaps my suggestion that science is
completey defined is extreme (but it got my basic point across). However,
I can think of nobody in the field who will deny my assertion that the domain
of science is natural phenomena. God is by definition supernatural. He
(or She) therefore fall outside of the realm of science. The supernatural is
the realm of theology and philosophy. Similarly, the meaning of life is
also a philosophical question.

Furthermore, science does not purport to be the method by which all questions
can be answered. As I mentioned before, it works within the realm of nature,
and that means observable phenomena. Recall that one of the basic requirements
of science is falsifiability. Your definition could allow anything. What
kind of reliable information can you gain from non-sensory data? I submit, none.
I have bunches of theological disputes with fundemantalist Christians. However,
there is no way to really prove or disprove either side of a theological
dispute. Can you imagine somebody claiming "well, God told me so" as support
for a scientific theory? I would not want the medicine I rely on to heal me
when I'm sick to be based on that type of research. Not only that, what if
somebody said "Well, God told me this other thing"? You can get stuck in
a sort of Oral Roberts Syndrome ("God is going to call me home if you don't
accept my paper in JAMA" :-)).

Sceince and religion don't have to clash; indeed, since they cover mutually
exclusive territory, they shouldn't. Religion may provide ethics which
will guide the scientist in as much as what areas to experiement in, what
projects to get involved in, etc. (work in genetics, or chemical weapons
development, for example). It may even suggest that more compassionate
methods of running experiements on animals be attempted if possible (a
very hairy issue which I will avoid now). However, that does not make
it permissible to inject religion (read supernatural, non-falisifiable
concepts) into scientific methodolgy and interpretation.

I hope this describes satisfactorly my position. Religious beliefs injected
into "the experimental output" will damage the integrity of the scientific
method, and complete throw off the accuracy of the results. The two domains
(sceince and religion) are separate, and that is as it should be.
-- 

					-- Chris. (cycy@isl1.ri.cmu.edu)