Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!mnetor!uunet!seismo!columbia!rutgers!sri-spam!ames!sdcsvax!ucbvax!FINGATE.BITNET!MAILER-DAEMON From: MAILER-DAEMON@FINGATE.BITNET (Mail Delivery Subsystem) Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st Subject: Returned mail: Unable to deliver mail Message-ID: <8707151532.AA26276@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> Date: Wed, 15-Jul-87 11:32:58 EDT Article-I.D.: ucbvax.8707151532.AA26276 Posted: Wed Jul 15 11:32:58 1987 Date-Received: Fri, 17-Jul-87 06:19:22 EDT Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU Distribution: world Organization: The ARPA Internet Lines: 462 ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 554... Unknown fudec host name : sampo ----- Unsent message follows ----- Received: by santra.UUCP (5.51/6.4.TeKoLa) id AA12301; Wed, 15 Jul 87 13:02:05 +0300 From: Message-Id: <8707151002.AA12301@santra.UUCP> Received: by fingate Wed Jul 15 13:01:59 from MAILER@FINHUTC.BITNET via rscs BSMTP. Received: by FINHUTC (Mailer X1.24) id 7348; Wed, 15 Jul 87 05:20:43 FIN Date: Mon 13 Jul 87 19:34:27 PDT Reply-To: Info-Atari16@Score.Stanford.edu Sender: "Atari ST users forum (INFO-ATARI16)" Original-From: Info-Atari16 Digest Subject: Info-Atari16 Digest V87 #274 To: , Original-To: , Info-Atari16 Digest Monday, July 13, 1987 Volume 87 : Issue 274 This weeks Editor: Bill Westfield Today's Topics: Re: Smalltalk on ST Hidden and System Files Re: Lost disk sectors Re: What's the latest version of the Sac? Aegis Animator and GDOS.PRG Re: Supra 20Meg HD Quirks Re: Disk R/W times for large files Re: Bug in Alcyon C v4.14 (not a bug) (yes, a bug!) HOTSHOT CHeckers UW? Re: Query on Magic Sac status... Formatting options question Gemboot and MWC 2.0 :-( SCSI drives--how do you connect them to the DMA port? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 Jul 87 10:06:19 GMT From: mcvax!unido!laura!hmm@seismo.css.gov (Martin Mosner) Subject: Re: Smalltalk on ST To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu (this has been in comp.sys.atari.st, but I think it's of interest for comp.lang.smalltalk readers, too) In article <3987@utai.UUCP> jpierre@utai.UUCP writes: > > >I asked a couple of weeks ago whether or not Smalltalk was available for >the ST. It turns out that some people at a university in Germany have >ported Smalltalk 80 to a 4meg ST. BUT... the software is not ready for >release and will probably be expensive. Alternatives at this time include >trying to run Smalltalk 80 on the Magic Sac and Smalltalk/V on the vaporous >IBM emulator. I haven't tried it yet... Basically, that's right. However... 1. the software will be released in July for Germany. I will post the prices as soon as I know them. 2. As far as I know, Apple Smalltalk does not run on the Sac. Even if it does, it's a rather old version of the image and known to be quite slow. I don't know if the ParcPlace Systems version for the Mac will run on the Sac, but it will be comparable to the Atari version in terms of speed and price, so what ? 3. Iff you have that vaporous IBM emulator, feel free to run Smalltalk/V on it... But I don't believe that this emulator will be more than an 8088 with 4.77 MHz clock, and those machines are painfully slow. :-) > >Finally, Smalltalk/V seems to be the choice of many with IBM ATs but I >don't expect Digitalk to bother implementing for the st when the more >attractive market of Suns and Mac2s is completly open to them (to the best >of my knowledge). From our experience with the Atari port I can say that it's normally quite easy to move such a program between various 68K machines. Iff Digitalk does a 68K implementation at all, it probably will be done for the Atari, too. After all, the Atari is the machine where the hardware cost matches the software cost best. >Jean-Pierre Corriveau >Dept. of Computer Science >University of Toronto, Toronto >CANADA M5S 1A4 As I said, I will keep the net informed about that stuff... Hans-Martin Mosner hmm@unido.uucp, hmm@unido.bitnet D ------------------------------ Date: 2 Jul 87 14:42:41 GMT From: mcvax!philmds!prle!nvpna1!dorrestn@seismo.css.gov (Frans Dorrestein ) Subject: Hidden and System Files To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu Files on the ST can have the attributes "System" and "Hidden" set. What exactly imply these attributes, when do you use them and what for? Are there any packages known which make use of hidden or system files? Does TOS treat system files in a special way? Just curious, Frans Dorrestein ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 87 15:51:05 GMT From: oliveb!dragon@ames.arpa (Give me a quarter or I'll touch you) Subject: Re: Lost disk sectors To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu in article <8707071803.AA02575@yale-eli.arpa>, fischer-michael@YALE.ARPA (Michael Fischer) says: > I wrote a little program to display the FAT (File Allocation Table) > on a disk that appeared to be completely full and was surprised > to see the last two clusters (= 4 sectors) free. Looking at the > data itself confirmed that they were unused. Doing a little > ... > Has anybody else noticed this before? Is it a TOS bug? If so, > has it been fixed in the newer ROMs? > > --Mike Fischer I've sort of noticed this, in the sense that when a disk is formatted under MS-DOS it gives more space available (~361,000 bytes) than a TOS disk which is 'supposedly' formatted in a compatible way. Now why this is done, I don't know, but imagine it would be explained in the Abacus book about ST drives and disks. Anyone else have a clue? -- Dean Brunette {ucbvax,etc.}!hplabs!oliveb!olivej!dragon Olivetti Advanced Technology Center _____ _____ __|__ _____ 20300 Stevens Creek Blvd. | | _____| | | Cupertino, CA 95014 |_____| |_____| |__ |_____ ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 87 15:56:03 GMT From: oliveb!dragon@ames.arpa (Give me a quarter or I'll touch you) Subject: Re: What's the latest version of the Sac? To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu in article <2045@trwrb.UUCP>, sansom@trwrb.UUCP (Richard Sansom) says: > Can anyone out there tell me what the latest version should be? Also, does > anyone know of a place in the L.A. area where I can get some Mac ROMs? > Thanks a bundle in advance. > -Rich > /////////////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ > /// Richard E. Sansom TRW Electronics & Defense Sector \\ > \\\ {decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!trwrb!sansom Redondo Beach, CA // > \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\///////////////////////////////////// The latest version that I have seen (updates are posted regularly on GEnie) is 4.35. To use it one needs the 4.2 distribution disk from Data Pacific, as only the driver is replaced in the last few updates. For ROMs outside of L.A., San Jose Computer and B & C Computervisions both carry the Mac ROMs. A bit expensive, but if you GOTTA have them... -- Dean Brunette {ucbvax,etc.}!hplabs!oliveb!olivej!dragon Olivetti Advanced Technology Center _____ _____ __|__ _____ 20300 Stevens Creek Blvd. | | _____| | | Cupertino, CA 95014 |_____| |_____| |__ |_____ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jul 87 20:27:19 EDT From: Mark L. Starner To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu Subject: Aegis Animator and GDOS.PRG Well, i got a copy of GDOS when I bought DEGAS Elite --- and I thought it would be great to put NEOchrome, DEGAS and Aegis Animator all on the same disk for graphics programs --- No dice! NEOchrome and DEGAS work fine w/GDOS loaded , however the Animator leaves splotches and peice of menus and mouse blocks all over the place. Am i missing something? Has anyone else seen this? HELP!!! I hate rebooting just to move between DEGAS and the Animator --- and I will be upgrading to Hard Disk in the next few days, and I hate to try to figure out a good way around it then! Anybody have ANY ideas for me? Thanks Mark Starner (215) 648-7382 Unisys Corporation Paoli Research Center/Computing Resources Paoli, PA ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 87 19:16:04 GMT From: braner@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu (braner) Subject: Re: Supra 20Meg HD Quirks To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu [] My personal impression is that the current day hard disks are _unreliable_. As a group. Now could somebody out there arrange an Atari ST <--> Micro Bernoulli connection? (Removable, 5", 20Meg, flexible, durable cartridges!) Meanwhile, _please_ do not put any valuable data on a hard disk. Use it for work copies of programs that you already have on floppies. Put you data on two (or more) floppies and upload it to some mainframe too... - Moshe Braner ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 87 19:06:44 GMT From: braner@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu (braner) Subject: Re: Disk R/W times for large files To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu [] Greg didn't say what program copied the files. I _guess_ it's the Gulam 'cp' command. I don't know how it does it, but apparently not well. 500K in 36 seconds is about 14 Kbytes/sec. The theoretical max is 22.5 Kbytes/sec (one track per rev). My boot disks actually achieve that when copying into the RAMdisk using 'Autodisk' (and the floppy is 'fast' formatted). Autodisk copies with a _huge_ buffer (the whole RAMdisk). "Twister" formatted disks read about 80% as fast, and standard disks about half as fast (i.e., twice as slow). But my experiments (when modifying microEmacs, etc) show that, with typical text files (<50K), a buffer of 9K (one DS track) yields a performance that is very close to that of larger buffers. That is with standard ("slow") formatted disks. (The performance gradually levels off as you increase the buffer size through 4.5, 9 and 18K.) - Moshe Braner ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 87 16:35:15 GMT From: kodak!elmgate!jdg@cs.rochester.edu (Jeff Gortatowsky) Subject: Re: Bug in Alcyon C v4.14 (not a bug) (yes, a bug!) To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu In article <4716@utah-cs.UUCP> sandra@utah-cs.UUCP (Sandra J Loosemore) writes: >...... . . . . >a byte offset. However, THERE IS STILL A BUG IN ALCYON C!!!! Or does >...... . . . . >-Sandra Loosemore >sandra@cs.utah.edu, sandra@utah-cs.uucp Take heart! Your just beginning to find the bugs! 8^) As I understand it there are a few more, though I don't have Alcyon C. Did Atari give you a list of known bugs when you got your kit? BTW. Everyone has been bit by the pointer addition in C at least once..... On a different topic, thanks to all that replied about MWC. Based on those messages and some personal research, I ordered it through a local dealer. I specified 2.0 or >. Is there a ">"? Has anyone compiled a list of no-no's in MWC? -- Jeff Gortatowsky {seismo,allegra}!rochester!kodak!elmgate!jdg Eastman Kodak Company These comments are mine alone and not Eastman Kodak's. How's that for a simple and complete disclaimer? ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 87 12:15:23 GMT From: ihnp4!mhuxu!cbz@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Craig B. Ziemer) Subject: HOTSHOT CHeckers To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu Would someone who has a working copy of the recently posted HOTSHOT checkers program please mail a copy. It was munged when it arrived here. Thanks. C.B. Ziemer at AT&T-BL mhuxu!cbz ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 87 19:40:00 GMT From: mtune!codas!novavax!hcx1!brads@RUTGERS.EDU Subject: UW? To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu Is anybody {working on, in possession of} a spiffy version of UW? I have the one posted awhile back, but it is painfully slow. - Brad Staff USMAIL: Brad Staff Phone: (305) 973-5339 Harris Corporation Usenet: codas!novavax!hcx1!brads Computer Systems Division 2101 West Cypress Creek Road Fort Lauderdale, FL 33309 ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 87 02:55:24 GMT From: ravi@mcnc.org (Ravi Subrahmanyan) Subject: Re: Query on Magic Sac status... To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu > > (a) Software that will and will not run with Magic Sac; With the new release of the driver software, the compatibility problems are rapidly disappearing. I've found that most Mac PD stuff works just fine. Here's a short list of the more popular stuff that I or some friends use regularly (ie. programs that don't just fire up right, but work well under extensive usage): Versaterm (& Pro), Kermit, Freeterm, Termworks. Mac240 does not work. MacDraw, MacPaint, MacWrite (it's the shakiest of the lot), MacBillboard, one of the other '*paint' programs, MacDraft. ReadySetGo. PageMaker supposedly works, but I haven't seen it. Excel. Cricket Graph. Plus all the usual goodies like Binhex, Packit, the zillion or so DA's you find around to do everything except give you a backrub.. I've found that for most of the PD or shareware stuff, if something doesn't work, one can find another DA or whatever that does exactly the same things, and that works (this is really true). In short, anything written "properly" seems to work great. Things that address hardware directly fail (eg. Mac240 probably goes to the serial chip), but even there Dave Small seems to have put in some ingenious hacks. It's been so good lately that I'm often in Mac mode for a week or so at a stretch (frankly, the Mac grows on you; it's everything the ST could have been, and now is - I'm tickled as hell!) > (b) Estimated price and availability date for the rumored > Data Pacific Macintosh-compatible floppy drive for the ST? Dave said he'd hoped for May, then said he'd been foolish to say that because he hadn't anticipated some problems. But he's actually finished it I think, and it's in the pipeline; certainly before summer's end. >Is there any other source for an ST drive that can read/write Mac disks? I seriously doubt it. >Any other information on advantages or disadvantages of an ST with Magic Sac >would be appreciated. Well, it isn't a Mac, so it'll act up and die sometimes, but I'm very satisfied (especially now, with the newer releases). Don't use anything less than rev 4.2 of the driver software (4.32 is out, but it's beta, so wait for 4.5). If you have specific needs, like word processing or picture making etc. it's great. I have a small set of stuff I need it for, it works great for that; most people I know have found it to work for what they needed. You could always check first, but at $150 a shot, it's not bad at all.. -ravi ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 87 06:12:11 GMT From: atwell@cs.utah.edu (Bart L. Atwell) Subject: Formatting options question To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu On trying DCFORMAT(Thanks, Mike), I noticed a lot of options exist for formatting disks. You can get the most storage using 82 tracks with 10 sectors but there must be a catch. What is it? Can you get fast mode to work with 10 sectors or does fast depend on a 9 sector format? What about 82 tracks? Does FAST work? Can you damage the drive (are you using a bad part of the diskette) when addressing 82 tracks? Thanks, Bart ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jul 87 10:30:41 gmt To: INFO-ATARI16@SCORE.STANFORD.EDU From: Organisation: Institut Laue Langevin Postal-address: BP156x 38042 GRENOBLE, France Phone: (33)7648-7111 [switchboard] Subject: GULAM SHELL I've just got Gulam from Atarinet at UH-INFO. It seems quite a nice shell but since I have a german keyboard there are a lot of keys misplaced. Couldn't it be possible that there exists a new version which uses the keyboard as it is??? I think a lot of people would be gratefull. Victor Frank janet frank@frill51 ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 87 22:40:34 GMT From: mcvax!unido!laura!@@seismo.css.gov (Andreas Toenne) Subject: Gemboot and MWC 2.0 :-( To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu Hi ! I've run in a problem with MWC 2.0. When I use GEMBOOT 1.10, the MWC msh doesn't read it's profile. I think this subject has been discussed some weeks ago. Could a kind soul mail me the results ?? Andreas Toenne Dept. of CS U of Dortmund, W-Germany Mail to : toenne@unido.uucp or at@unido.bitnet D ------------------------------ Date: 7 Jul 87 19:55:24 GMT From: mnetor!utzoo!utgpu!water!watmath!watvlsi!rpfeifle@seismo.css.gov Subject: SCSI drives--how do you connect them to the DMA port? To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu What pins have to be connected to what lines, what pins have to be dropped etc... Ron -- Ron Pfeifle "What time is it?" {decvax,allegra,ihnp4}!watmath!watvlsi!rpfeifle "It's the dark ages." [better get your Oktoberfest tickets now] --the Frantics ------------------------------ End of Info-Atari16 Digest ************************** -------