Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Path: utzoo!utgpu!water!watmath!clyde!rutgers!topaz.rutgers.edu!brandx.rutgers.edu!webber
From: webber@brandx.rutgers.edu.UUCP
Newsgroups: comp.sources.d
Subject: EndOfSourcesList+AnnouncementOfNetOmbudsman
Message-ID: <267@brandx.rutgers.edu>
Date: Mon, 29-Jun-87 05:30:16 EDT
Article-I.D.: brandx.267
Posted: Mon Jun 29 05:30:16 1987
Date-Received: Tue, 30-Jun-87 01:54:11 EDT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 213
Keywords: solving the moderation bottleneck


[The following 200- lines announce the death of the sources mailing list
and the creation of a net ombudsman that indirectly handles the problem
of finding an outlet for unmoderated sources.  In particular, this message
gives a procedure for getting a message posted when you don't feel like
sending it to one of the Usenet moderators and you don't want to fake an
approval.]

Hi.  Over the past month, an attempt was made to find out if there was
sufficient justification for the creation of an unmoderated sources group
by the tried and true method of creating a mailing list and seeing if 
traffic justified it.  Well, traffic justified it.  Indeed with no traffic
at all, many backbone sites contacted me indicating that it was too much 
and that I couldn't send anymore through their sites.  Further, in spite
of the existance of things like netlib and the way sources get to moderated
groups, I was assured that mail cannot support such a list without getting
permission of all the intermediate sites.  So, it looks like creating a sources
mailing list just won't fly.  Sorry and much thanks to the 100+ who showed
support.  In the words of one backbone site, the list is now nuked.

According to a rumor posted to the net by gnu!gilmore and consistant with
a similar posting by hao!wood earlier, it would appear that the backbone
has been poised in favour of such a list for a number of weeks but can't
get its act together to actually create it.  The mailing list plus vote
of 100+ would justify it regardless of the question of the wisdom of
having done the moderation in the first place.  However, no replies have
resulted from any of the times I have notified spaf@gatech of the size
of the vote.

The interesting question is how could such a vote be ignored.  The answer
is that the backbone is not a governing agency of usenet, but is rather
the collection of sites that spaf@gatech tends to interact with regularly.
In turn, spaf@gatech is not the ruler of usenet, but is rather someone who
has done alot of good things for usenet and sends out alot of reliable 
information, to such an extent that by inertia and laziness of most of the
usenet sites, he is in effect administering most of the news on usenet.
This means that if you have a disagreement with the backbone sites, the
only way you are going to get them to change is if they decide they didn't
really want to do what happened in the first place.  If it was done
intentionally, you are just shouting down a well.

Sine the Usenet is an anarchy in which everyone can do whatever they want
one would presume the above was not a necessarily bad thing.  However,
since the vast majority of the net wish to appear reasonable and civilized
and fear any kind of united opposition from the net, this means that as
long as they are getting something from their connection to Usenet, they
won't squawk too loudly as they loose more and more bit by bit.  However,
these fears are groundless, since the backbone sites have neither the
time nor organization to actually control the entire Usenet in the face of
determined reasonable opposition.

Thus, what the net needs is a `net ombudsman' whose purpose is to minimize
the empact on the net of some of the more foolish actions we have seen 
recently.  Until others volunteer to cover this duty, I will be handling
it.  Just as in the case of the backbone, it is possible for any site to
go its own way and completely ignore what I do.  However, just as with
the backbone, I will try and make sure that it is easier for them to go
along. [Incidently, co-ombudspeople are also welcome.]

My first action is to address the problem of net moderation.

The problem is that for certain topics, there is no reasonable alternative
to posting to a moderated group.  Usenet has traditionally been unmoderated.
While the creation of moderated groups is plausible for certain low traffic
topics, the attempt to use them as replacements for previous large unmoderated
groups is unsupportable.  While there are clearly people who prefer moderation,
this does not justify taking away the unmoderated group from the mass of
people who were happy with what was going on, even though it may justify
the creation of parallel moderated groups on some topics.  Always remember
that no site is required to carry all groups (although most people seem to
carry as much as they can afford -- so it must be good stuff).

My solution:  if someone sends me a message that seems to me to be relevant
to a moderated group where there is no unmoderated alternative, I will post
it there.

Implementation:  Send your postings to:  rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!webber
                 Indicate which group you want them to go to and what subject
                 line you want.  Don't forget to sign your messages.  Anonymous
                 postings will be handled slower.  I reserve the right to 
                 reject postings without explanation.  I will acknowledge
                 requests for postings when the return mail paths work,
                 but keep your own copy as I will probably not return it
                 in toto.

Details: 1) The messages will be clearly marked as having been approved by me,
         both on the approved line and at the top of the message body.

         2) The message will not be edited, if it is below standard for the
         group I send it to, that is the author's problem.

         3) The message will be posted Distribution: usa .  The reason for this
         is that it has been brought to my attention by the gateway sites that
         places like Europe and Austrailia are not really on the Usenet due
         to economic problems with international communication at the rate of
         2 meg per day, but are instead closer to the status of BitNet, 
         ArpaNet, and various other nets that gateway into Usenet.

         4) The moderators of groups I post to will not be contacted prior to
         the posting.  In order to determine what is appropriate for a given
         group I will use the comments in the List of Active News Groups in
         conjunction with whatever materials the moderators may choose to send
         me.

         5) The entire message will get posted, so don't send me justifications
         unless you want them posted also.  I am assuming that the authors
         do not object to posting in the group they indicate, but just would 
         prefer someone other than them had a look at the message first and
         handled the actual mechanics of posting.  It is not necessary for
         the posting to have been previously turned down in order for me to
         post it.

While the above may seem somewhat arbitrary, I have noticed that it works well
for the backbone and am not inclined to change until experience shows 
otherwise.  However, because I am a busy person, I will take the time to
actually go through the list of moderated groups and indicate which ones I
view as subject to postings from me in my role as Ombudsman and which groups
have legitimate unmoderated alternatives.  [Incidently, I personally encourage
people to contemplate the significance of posting to a Moderated Group versus
posting to Its Alternative.]

  Moderated Group with Reasonable Alternative    The Alternative
 --------------------------------------------     --------------
comp.ai.digest                                    comp.ai
comp.binaries.amiga                               talk.bizzare
comp.binaries.atari.st                            talk.bizzare
comp.binaries.ibm.pc                              talk.bizzare
comp.binaries.mac                                 talk.bizzare
comp.bugs.4bsd.ucb-fixes                          comp.bugs.4bsd
comp.compilers                                    comp.misc
comp.dcom.telecom                                 comp.dcom.modems
comp.doc.techreports                              sci.research
comp.graphics.digest                              comp.graphics
comp.hypercube                                    comp.arch
comp.laser-printers                               comp.text
comp.mail.elm                                     comp.mail.misc
comp.newprod                                      misc.forsale
comp.org.fidonet                                  comp.sys.ibm.pc
comp.os.os9                                       comp.os.misc
comp.os.research                                  comp.arch
comp.protocols.kermit                             comp.protocols.misc
comp.risks                                        comp.misc
comp.society                                      comp.misc
comp.std.c                                        comp.lang.c
comp.std.mumps                                    comp.std.misc
comp.std.unix                                     comp.unix.wizards
comp.sys.ibm.pc.digest                            comp.sys.ibm.pc
comp.sys.m68k.pc                                  comp.sys.misc
comp.sys.mac.digest                               comp.sys.mac
comp.sys.masscomp                                 comp.sys.misc
comp.sys.sequent                                  comp.sys.misc
comp.sys.sun                                      comp.sys.misc
comp.sys.workstations                             comp.sys.misc
comp.text.desktop                                 comp.text
comp.unix                                         comp.unix.wizards
misc.handicap                                     sci.med
misc.psi                                          talk.bizzare
news.announce.conferences                         sci.research
news.lists                                        news.misc
rec.arts.movies.reviews                           rec.arts.movies
rec.food.recipes                                  rec.food.cooking
rec.guns                                          rec.misc
rec.humor.spc                                     rec.humor
rec.mag.otherrealms                               rec.arts.sf-lovers
rec.music.gaffa                                   rec.music.misc
sci.med.aids                                      sci.med
soc.human-nets                                    news.misc
soc.politics                                      talk.politics.misc
soc.politics.arms-d                               talk.politics.misc
soc.religion.christian                            talk.religion.misc

  Moderated Group without Reasonable Alternative Plus Description
 -----------------------------------------------------------------
comp.doc                         Archived public-domain documentation
comp.mail.maps                   Various maps, including UUCP maps
comp.sources.amiga               Source code-only postings for the Amiga
comp.sources.atari.st            Source code-only postings for the Atari ST
comp.sources.games               Postings of recreational software
comp.sources.mac                 Software for the Apple Macintosh
comp.sources.misc                Posting of software
comp.sources.unix                Postings of public-domain sources
news.announce.important          General announcments of interest to all
news.announce.newusers           Explanatory postings for new users

Considering the nature of the above list, it is no real surprise that
sources was the first place where the problem was noticed.

Of course, as the participants in various groups changes, question of whether
or not some specific group has a reasonable alternative or not may change.

As with all things on usenet, the above is subject to change without notice.

Incidently, spaf@gatech (a moderator) has announced, in the list of moderators,
the policy of referring all disagreements with specific moderators to the 
moderators' mailing list.  This is akin to letting legislators set their own 
salaries.

A copy of this action is going to all the relevant parties, i.e.,
moderators@cbosgd.att.COM , backbone@gatech.edu , spaf@gatech.edu ,
news.admin , news.sysadmin, news.misc , news.groups , and news.stargate .
Incidently, it is going to the stargate group because stargate is in the
process of trying to replace the backbone and they are planning on carrying
only the moderated groups (and hence a rather lengthy discussion of moderation
has already occurred there).  It was not sent to news.announce.important 
because so few people are interested in the politics of the net, that it 
certainly isn't justified in being blasted at everyone.  It has not yet 
appeared on news.announce.newusers because policy isn't yet stable enough 
to be other than confusing to new users.  Due to a bug in postnews (which has 
been reported), it was separately posted to comp.sources.d .  As things settle
out, a revised copy will appear in those places where moderators are in 
control of the only reasonable outlet for a discussion.

---- BOB (webber@aramis.rutgers.edu ; rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!webber)