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From: mason@tmsoft.UUCP
Newsgroups: news.admin,can.general,news.misc
Subject: Re: uunet access from Canada (a response from /usr/group/cdn)
Message-ID: <156@tmsoft.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 6-Jul-87 02:25:36 EDT
Article-I.D.: tmsoft.156
Posted: Mon Jul  6 02:25:36 1987
Date-Received: Mon, 6-Jul-87 05:35:33 EDT
References: <954@van-bc.UUCP> <1477@ncc.UUCP> <959@van-bc.UUCP> <1480@ncc.UUCP> <787@sask.UUCP>
Reply-To: mason@tmsoft.UUCP (Dave Mason)
Followup-To: news.admin
Distribution: can
Organization: TM Software Associates, Toronto/ President, /usr/group/cdn
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(Note that followups are directed to news.admin)

Rayan Zachariassen (rayan@utai), Peter Renzland (peter@ontmoh / usrgroup@utgpu),
Tom Molnar (molnar@utgpu) and I have discussed ways that /usr/group/cdn can
help and support the Canadian Usenet.  Peter, Tom and myself are Directors on
the "Technical Services" committee.  We have not reached any conclusions, but
we have already discussed all the options proposed in this discussion so far.
Let me try to address some of the questions/comments, and then suggest a useful
course of action.

% From: sl@van-bc.UUCP
% Is anyone out there interested in hooking into UUNET?
Yes. This does seem desirable.  More for the access to 'FTPable' software
and mail than for news.

# From: lyndon@ncc.UUCP
# WHY do we have to bend over and grovel to the almighty americans?
More or less my feeling.
# WHAT is to stop us from setting up a Canadian uunet?
# Is anyone from /usr/group/cdn listening?
Yes, we are discussing this.  But some other people make valid points:

$ From: brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton)
$ One answer here is to put a UUNET relay in Canada, connected to datapac.
$ ...
$ UUNET is an effort of U.S. user groups, why not have /usr/group/cdn or
$ whoever fund a node.  In theory, the hardware and X.25 software can
$ be had from the US UUNET site.  SMOP, perhaps.
$ 
$ Based on phone bills of hundreds per month over Canadian links, such hardware
$ could be paid for quickly enough.
This is the question I want to address at the end of all this.

% From: sl@van-bc.UUCP (Stuart Lynne)
% Datapac inside of Canda is still fairly expensive. For me to access Toronto
% is still $1.38 / KP using Datapac 3000. This will give me an effective
% transfer cost of about $5.52. This compares to $4 CDN for UUNET if we can get
% the same rate that is charged in the US. This assumes that I have also got
% X.25 hardware and software. And ignores the fact that the sign up fee for
% UUNET is about $40 CDN as compared to $90 for off net Datapac 3000 service.
Possibly we can get the same kind of bulk discount that UUNET is getting
from TYMNET from Datapac

% Personally I'll take the increased connectivity of UUNET. Why introduce and
% extra delay.
There are 2 issues here.  Some people just want to be connected to UUNET, and
others want to improve connectivity in Canada in general.  There is no reason
that a delay of more than a few minutes should be introduced between UUNET and
the Canadian equivalent.

% That's the whole point. There is no current "cheapest" way.
There is a "cheapest", but maybe not a "cheap".
% >sense to put the Canadian uunet relay in T.O.)
%                                        ^^^^^^
% Unfortunately your right. Maybe I should move back home to Ontario ...  
Being from the east coast, I concur with the "unfortunately", but it
does appear to make the most economic sense (that's what "they" always say :-)

% Actually /usr/group/cdn might be able to play a role in just getting us a
% better hookup to UUNET. The possibility exists to setup a separate billing
% account from Canada for Canadian customers. This would have the rate set by
% the Canadain side of Tymnet who may be more interested in trying to get our
% business. This would require some responsible party who would guarantee the
% payment, and invoice and collect the money. Actually I suspect you could get
% UUNET to actually issue the invoices.
This is a possibility if a Canadian hub doesn't work out economically, but it
sounds like a lot of headaches for small potential gains.

% Anyway I am not convinced that we could offer a cheaper service from a site
% in Canada.
Nor am I, but I think it's worth exploring.
% ... Given the above example of Vancouver to Toronto, this would
% put the billed cost up to something in the order of $6.50 per hour.
Unless we can get a bulk rate.

% Of course there is a place for this service in providing A Canadian mail
% system that is extremely inexpensive and not sensitive to when it is used.
% That is being proved every day. But for low cost news, and low cost
% overnight mail, I don't think we can beat UUNET.
Actually the price competitor to a Canadian hub is probably the status quo.
(at least as long as the sites that are currently carrying the load continue)

% From: sl@van-bc.UUCP (Stuart Lynne)
% I don't consider it grovelling. The fact is if you want to restrict yourself
% to the can. groups, or only articles generated in Canada, you'll get pretty
% bored (Brad Templeton, David Sherman and Henry Spencer aside).
The net itself is interesting because it is approaching global, I think the
grovelling comment was addressed to connecting to UUNET.

% Nothing. I just don't think that it's a) neccessary or b) cost effective.
You may be right, but let's take a real look at it.
% What is stopping us from using UUNET? Perhaps you're falling prey to the
% Not Invented Here Syndrome.
See above.  There are 2 different issues at play here.

% Two questions: 
% 	a) does /usr/group/cdn have $39,000 US
Not at present.
% 	b) is there enough traffic in Canada to justify such an expenditure.
If there is, we may be able to raise the necessary money.  In particular
we probably don't need anywhere as large a system (at least in terms of CPU).

% Personally if someone wants to setup a UUNET in Canada with a similiar array
% of services at a similiar cost to what UUNET is charging in the US I'm all
% for it. It would also be nice if this was done sometime in the next couple
% of months, even this year. Think we can move that fast?
Possibly.  It depends how clear cut the results of my poll will be, see below.

# From: lyndon@ncc.UUCP
# Which is rather strange given that ubc-vision is a backbone site.
# When the ihnp4 link went down, a few of us went into "crisis mode"
# to figure out an alternative. Thus was born the link between alberta
# and mnetor (which is now working in both directions). Of the
# alternatives, the best all involved redundent X.25 links between
# major sites, with leaf sites coming in via dialup to this "mini-
# backbone."
This is part of why I think a Canadian hub may be workable.
# > I simply want to get the lowest cost access to the news, and mail.
# The X.25 scenario turned out to be much cheaper than LD.
The problem is that many sites get a free ride, & this skews their view of
the real costs involved.

# Uunet is a service that is long overdue. I would like to see it made
# more robust by having more than one "uunet" in the world. Don't forget
# 800 and 900 toll free and toll reduced calling are viable alternatives
# to X.25 as well.
Yes, we should look at all the alternatives.

# Has anyone investigated the new Datapac "dialout service" for setting up
# UUCP links. The idea is that entering a certain Datapac address will
# connect you to a modem in [Toronto, Vancouver, Edmonton] which then
# prompts you for a local telephone number to dial.Trouble is it only
# runs at 1200 baud (on the dialout), and only supports 7 bits even
# parity (can you believe it?) 
Hey, computer communications just means hanging terminals on remote
computers, doesn't it? :-)

# Oh come on! Why don't we all just move to Toronto and eliminate long
# distance completely.
Because it's a big city, and most of you have the good sense or good fortune
to not have to live here.  This has always been on of Canada's big problems,
(a relatively small population spread across a wide country (some would say
Toronto's always been one of Canada's big problems :-))
but it has led to opportunities in the past, and the trick here is to find
the opportunities & overcome the problems.  In particular making it so
everybody can participate more-or-less equally in the world usenet community.

# > UUNET is an effort of U.S. user groups, why not have /usr/group/cdn or
# > whoever fund a node.  In theory, the hardware and X.25 software can
# > be had from the US UUNET site.  SMOP, perhaps.
# 
# Whatever happened to "buy Canadian" :-)
I'm sure we will find much of what we need here.

* From: reid@sask.UUCP (I am NOT your Sweet Baboo)
* Do you have any hard data, or can you point me to anyone who might have hard
* data?  We currently get all our news over a 300 baud uncompressed leased
You should definitely compress it!

Well, this is already pretty long,so let me get to the point.

Lots of good ideas in the above, but they all make assumptions that *I* don't
know are valid (& I doubt anyone else does).  The time has come to try &
gather some hard data.  I will post to news.software.b a shar file that has
an anaylsis program to analyse your news and mail files.  It will gather
statistics on who brings you your mail and news (i.e. what Canadian sites
handle your traffic from outside the country).  It does this by scanning
through the Path: header checking each site for being in the can.sites.h
file (which I extracted from the most recent news.maps posting).  It also
tells you what the average delay for the news and mail is.

I am going to be away for a few weeks; but in early August I will ask
everyone to run this program, and send me the results along with an
approximation to how much you spend on uucp phone calls/month.  What I
hope to be able to figure out from this is whether a Canadian usenet hub
is feasible or not.  I will treat the numbers in confidence (i.e. you
don't have to worry about your boss finding out how much you really spend
bringing in news).  I also want to determine if it can provide significantly
improved service.

If you write me back real-soon (<2 days), I will try to respond.  Otherwise
feel free to mail the people at the top of this note with your ideas and
comments, & I'll talk to you again in August.

	../Dave Mason,	..!{utzoo seismo!mnetor utcsri utgpu lsuc}!tmsoft!mason
		TM Software Associates	(Compilers & System Consulting)
		Ryerson Polytechnical Institute, School of Computer Science
		/usr/group/cdn President (yah, IT's all my fault)