Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!mnetor!uunet!seismo!rutgers!labrea!aurora!ames!lll-tis!ptsfa!well!adh From: adh@well.UUCP (Allen D. Hastings) Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga Subject: Re: VideoScape 3D Review (Sort Of) Message-ID: <3640@well.UUCP> Date: Mon, 27-Jul-87 20:18:49 EDT Article-I.D.: well.3640 Posted: Mon Jul 27 20:18:49 1987 Date-Received: Wed, 29-Jul-87 02:49:55 EDT References: <3613@well.UUCP> Reply-To: adh@well.UUCP (Allen D. Hastings) Distribution: world Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link, Sausalito, CA Lines: 207 ============================================================================= First of all I'd like to say how glad I am that VideoScape 3D is finally in stores (after 19 months of hard work) and is being received enthusiastically by the Amiga owners that I've spoken with, and by local dealers who tell me that sales are brisk. Even though it has only been out a few days, I know several people who have already created new 3D objects and animations, including several demos to be shown at SIGGRAPH (I had figured it would take most people about a week to get up to speed). The purpose of this posting is mainly to respond to recent messages about VideoScape by Leo Schwab and Carlos Smith. I agree with the main point of Leo's messages, which (I think) is that to get the most out of the program requires investing a lot of time. There is definitely a learning curve to climb, and setting up the data files for a complex scene does take some work. The program is not for casual users, and hopefully potentially buyers will read the note on the package: 'VideoScape 3D is a sophisticated script-file-based animation tool designed for producing special video effects. It is intended for the professional or advanced video hobbyist.' On the plus side, early buyers have told me that they like the manual and that it allows even those who haven't encountered 3D geometry before to climb that learning curve fairly painlessly (a careful reading of the manual is a must). I have been pleasantly surprised by how quickly beginners have caught on to the basic concepts. Several advanced users have also complimented me on the program, and some are creating sequences for fall network TV shows with VideoScape, which should give the Amiga some good (and much-needed) publicity. I will try now try to respond some of Leo's other observations: > Point: When you load an object file into the 3D program for >previewing, it hangs around only long enough for you to preview it ONCE. This is something I will definitely change in any future versions, since it seems to annoy some people (including myself sometimes). There is, however, a reason why the program works this way. Generating an animation is highly destructive to the variables used, so to be able to immediately return to the beginning of a scene would require keeping copies of the data structures lying around, which would reduce the amount of memory available for object storage. One of the goals was minimizing memory usage so that 512K Amiga owners could get the most out of the program (this also explains why IFF backgrounds are reloaded). Future versions won't be so stingy about using memory and will solve these problems. For the present, I recommend placing large objects and IFF backgrounds in the RAM disk. > Onward. The camera motion control is not general enough. You are >allowed to position the camera at any point in space. However, you *must* >supply camera direction as direction angles (heading, pitch, bank). You >cannot tell the camera to 'look at this coordinate.' This could be a major It is not difficult to keep the camera aimed at a particular point (there are many examples of this in the 'Infinite Loop' video). The tutorial in the manual provides another example, showing how to pan the camera to follow a spaceship that flies by. Since camera files are ASCII text, it wouldn't be hard to write a short utility to calculate direction angles for you based on 'from' and 'to' coordinates. I'll probably make a PD program to do just that. Also, I've heard rumors of interactive scene editors under development that would allow one to do this graphically. > Color restriction is restricted to 11 (count 'em) colors. They are: >Black, Dark Blue, Dark Red, Dark Green, Brown, Grey, Light Blue, Light >Green, Light Red, Yellow, White (you IBM people should recognize these >colors). There are also 'glossy' versions of these colors. If you're These are actually ranges of colors that can be assigned to polygons, and shouldn't be confused with the actual colors in the screen's color table. The program picks the actual shades during rendering, based on each polygon's shading model and it's orientation with respect to the light source and the camera. Thanks to dithering, there are actually 56 shades available in 352x220 and 352x440 resolutions and 26 shades in 704x220 and 704x440 modes. Just look at the ANIM file demos to see how colorful VideoScape scenes can be. HAM mode with 3DG2 files will be the ultimate solution. > The object generating tools are, while helpful, not ideal for >generating more complex objects. For example, the intersection of two I agree (especially about Designer 3D, which I never use). I prefer the complete flexibility of the graph paper method described in the tutorial. The Mayan Pyramid on the Objects disk, for example, was drawn and entered in about an hour. I also use EGG and OCT a lot. I believe that Designer 3D was included because full-blown object editors for VideoScape are still under development. I have recently played with a prototype editor and it's really neat, allowing you to zoom, pan, resize the three views, etc. (my little CLI utilities will become obsolete). I also like Leo's suggestion about making a translator program for VideoScape and Sculpt-3D objects. Expect to see lots of new premade VideoScape objects and fonts soon, both in the public domain and as 'art disks' from various companies. Also, there are lots of existing 3D object databases out there for more expensive systems, and it wouldn't be hard to translate them (I have already downloaded a complex object from a Macintosh 3D program, for example). This should further alleviate object description difficulties. > Limitations of the animation system appear to be hard-coded. The >limits are as follows: > > o 30,000 points, 30,000 polygons, 30,000 surface polygons. > o 1000 of each of the above for a 512K system. > o Up to 200 verticies per polygon (larger polygons can be simulated > by attaching two co-planar polygons). > o Up to 25 objects in one scene, with motion description for each > (note that 'objects' can be multiple polyhedra on-screen; but > they are a single object to the program, and are moved as such). > o Up to 25 key frames per scene (24 tweens). > o Up to 30,000 frames per scene. > > (Didn't this guy ever hear of linked lists?) Having graduated with Honors in Computer Science from UC, I have heard a lot about about linked lists. In fact, a form a linked list is used to store polygon information (so as not to waste memory). In some other places linked lists were replaced with arrays which resulted in a significant speed improvements. To be fair, I think the limits are pretty high for a micro-based package (it's hard to imagine 30,000 frames in a single scene), and if they aren't high enough for a particular scene, there are many ways of working around them. None of the scenes in the 'Infinite Loop' video use more than 10% of the object data capacity. Other 3D programs have limits, too: Forms in Flight, which requires a megabyte to run, has a default limit of 600 points, and Sculpt-3D limits polygons to three vertices instead of 200 (I am not trying to knock these programs at all). > Incidentally, the ShowAnim player doesn't appear to have any >graceful way of exiting it; you seem to have to reboot (ack!). The main tool for displaying ANIM files is the PlayANIM program included with VideoScape, which also you to play an animation any number of times, tinker with frame timing, etc. The reason that ShowANIM is also included is because it is freely distributable and doesn't require any prompts. Other messages on the net indicate that an 'exitable' ShowANIM is now being distributed. Carlos Smith posted a message recently describing his experience with VideoScape 3D at a dealer. Apparently, the program would crash with the simplest operations on the single machine that he tried it on. Leo replied: > Based on your description, I would say that the hardware was flakey. >I've had minimal crashes with both systems I've used it on (A1000's with >2Meg ASDG racks (stop snickering, Perry :-) )). After trying many variations on the sequence of actions Carlos describes, I have been unable to cause a single crash. I have to agree with Leo that there is something strange about that particular machine or disk. I spent a lot of time fortifying the program against attacking Gurus, and any bugs reported by the beta testers were ruthlessly hunted down and squashed. All the reports I've heard state that the program works fine with multitasking, extra memory, hard disks, and the new models (500 and 2000). I have tested all these things myself (except for the 2000 - Aegis tried that), and there have been several beta testers working with the program since March. If anyone does find a repeatable bug, mail me an exact sequence I can follow to reproduce it and I'll fix it. > OCT has also seen a lot of use from me. Something you should watch >out for: If you apply a rotation to an object, all rotations seem to happen >'at once', not in a sequence. That is, if you ask for both heading and The sequence of rotations is spelled out in the manual: rotation about the Z axis (bank) is applied first, then rotation about the X axis (pitch), and finally rotation about the Y axis (heading). This is the most logical order when dealing with vehicles (imagine an airplane flying along the Z axis). > You *NEED* two megs. At least. The way I've been working, I 'run' >VideoScape, and load EGG and OCT when I need them. I run out of Perry's >Sooper Dooper VD0:, and keep progressive object files in it, updating to >floppy when they're done. VS3D works nicely out of VD0:. I also keep my C This is probably the best way to use VideoScape. However, two megs is not really necessary (I only have one myself, allowing about 5000 points and polygons to be loaded), and both the space battle film 'Verx' and the original 'Infinite Loop' were generated on a 512K Amiga. I suspect that Leo must be making some pretty humongous objects (I can't wait to see what he creates). More memory definitely helps, especially for making ANIM files. > In summary, VideoScape does provide useful tools for the creation >and recording of 3D animation sequences. However, be prepared to put in a >*lot* of work to get up to speed on the system, and even more work into As I said before, it can be time-consuming, but for me, seeing the Red Baron flying again or walking around an imaginary house makes it all worthwhile (and I've had fun showing my films to amazed Amiga owners and even-more-amazed Mac and ST owners). If you are really serious about making 'Infinite Loop' style animations, then I'm sure you can create great new films with VideoScape 3D (I hope that didn't sound too corny - I'm trying to be serious here). As a 3D graphics junkie, I'm looking forward to seeing some really impressive stuff done with VideoScape. >Leo L. Schwab -- The Guy in The Cape ihnp4!ptsfa -\ > \_ -_ Bike shrunk by popular demand, dual ---> !{well,unicom}!ewhac >O---- But it's still the only way to fly. hplabs / (pronounced 'AE-wack') >'Work FOR? I don't work FOR anybody! I'm just having fun.' -- The Doctor - Allen Hastings ============================================================================= w