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From: elg@killer.UUCP (Eric Green)
Newsgroups: comp.misc,misc.headlines
Subject: Re: Hacker Scholarship
Message-ID: <1152@killer.UUCP>
Date: Sat, 18-Jul-87 02:05:26 EDT
Article-I.D.: killer.1152
Posted: Sat Jul 18 02:05:26 1987
Date-Received: Sun, 19-Jul-87 08:49:46 EDT
References: <225@ddsw1.UUCP>
Organization: Bayou Telecommunications
Lines: 69
Xref: mnetor comp.misc:855 misc.headlines:1141

in article <225@ddsw1.UUCP>, karl@ddsw1.UUCP (Karl Denninger) says:
> In article <555@agora.UUCP>, batie@agora.UUCP (Alan Batie) writes:
>> In article <1063@killer.UUCP> robertl@killer.UUCP (Robert Lord) writes:
>> > (Dissertation comparing hacking to joyriding deleted)
>> >
>> 2.  It's false.  There are public access Unix systems all over the place
>> now where one can get free access to do everything you're trying to accomplish
>> (except cracking the system).  I run one myself (agora, 503-640-4262) --
>> there's absolutely no need to crack a system to expand your horizons, unless
>> you're such a twit that no one will give you an account (and I doubt that).
>> -- 
> 
> True -- in the Chicago area, there are at least five public-access Unix
> systems I know of, and probably a few I don't know about. Nice, inexpensive
> systems like the 7300 and Microport's proliferation have been largely
> responsible for this (heck, we run it here).

Free public-access systems are a recent innovation, driven by the declining
price of hardware. Until recently, the only available public access systems
were "for-pay" systems like Compuserve or The Source, due to the high cost of
the necessary hardware.  For example, a friend has some '70s vintage 80-meg
hard drives designed for a DEC minicomputer... the size of a washing machine,
consumes 1000 watts of power. Cost probably in the 10s of thousands originally
(altho he didn't pay that much, of course, since it was being scrapped... he's
STILL trying to figure out what he's going to do with those three PDP-8's that
he salvaged!). Needless to say, if you've got 10 or 15 of those on-line, you
have a pretty hefty A/C system, and a lot of free space (like,
WASHATERIA-size!). Ain't no way someone would run such a system as a hobby.

Nowadays, I could get an 80 meg drive for a Pee-Cee for $900 (and the AT clone
with Microport Unix for less than $3,000).

I would venture to say that for-pay on-line systems are the most common
victims of "hacking" (in the news-media sense of the word, not in MY sense of
the word!). For example, one popular gambit on Quantum Link (a Commodore
on-line system) is for people to log on with a forged certificate number and
fake credit card number... a month later, the account is deleted, upon which
they log in under yet another forged number....

Also needless to say, until the recent proliferation of powerful
microcomputers such as the Commodore Amiga, or the IBM AT clone running
Microport, the only way that a high schooler could get access to a "real"
system would be to get it illegally. Most schools still have an Apple ][ as
their most powerful computer (suburban schools, that is -- inner-city schools
don't have computers, because they don't have enough money, because school
systems are funded by sick racists).  What would YOU say if you're Joe Public,
and your kid says "Hi, Dad, I'd like you to give me $400/month to use The
Source, so I can learn how to program"? 
   Hell, most people won't even give their kids money to buy programming books
or any OTHER educational book! I can't count the number of times that I've
answered chat on my BBS, to find it's a kid asking simple programming
questions... and when I recommend that they get some particular book (e.g., if
they're trying to program in assembler, the SAMS book _C-64 Assembly Language
Programming_), "uh, how much is it?  I don't have the money right now..." and
when I tell'em "why don't you ask your parents, they'll probably be glad that
you want to learn something" but usually their parent's answer is "no! Now go
back to your room, I don't want to be bothered with miserable little snivelly
kids underfoot while I'm watching nighttime soap operas!". It's amazing how
little time and money that most modern parents spend on their children's
growth, development, and education... usually, "here, here's $400 worth of
toys, get to your room out of sight because I don't want to be bothered with
the sight of you while I'm conspicuously consuming." (cut to boxed C-64 with
1541 and disk drive and modem). 

--
Eric Green   elg%usl.CSNET     Ron Headrest: A President
{cbosgd,ihnp4}!killer!elg      for the Electronic Age!
Snail Mail P.O. Box 92191      
Lafayette, LA 70509            BBS phone #: 318-984-3854  300/12 fli fli