Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!mnetor!seismo!rutgers!topaz!christian From: mberkley@watdcsu.UUCP Newsgroups: mod.religion.christian Subject: Re: Romans 9 Message-ID: <7386@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU> Date: Sat, 29-Nov-86 07:39:17 EST Article-I.D.: topaz.7386 Posted: Sat Nov 29 07:39:17 1986 Date-Received: Sat, 29-Nov-86 20:55:31 EST Sender: hedrick@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J. Lines: 37 Approved: christian@topaz.UUCP >I therefore agree with Tom that the >principle point of the passage is that the children of Israel cannot rely on >the blessing given to their forefathers for salvation, yet I think that Paul >goes off the rails right at the end and asserts a universal lack of freedom >which to my mind runs counter to the rest of scripture. I don't think that Paul is saying that God would harden our hearts to keep us from salvation. I think that God is saying that He would harden our hearts if we rejected salvation. God knows our hearts and He knows when we love Him and when we are buying fire insurance. Take Pharaoh for example. In Exodus 5, Pharoah refuses to listen to Moses and he states, "Who is the Lord, that I should obey him and let Israel go? I do not know the Lord and I will not let Israel go." Pharaoh clearly states that he will not let the Israelites go, and also he doesn't believe in the Hebrew God, in spite of all that Joseph did for Egypt (in God's name). Thus, after Pharaoh has made his choice, God hardens his heart against the Israelites. God knows the hearts of men, and he knew that Pharaoh's heart was decided irrevocably. Then and only then did the potter turn to make another use of the clay, for His glory. If God had not hardened Pharaoh's heart, who knows what would have happened. Perhaps Pharaoh would have let the Israelites go, but I believe that it would have been out of fear of the plagues, not submission to the Lord. Mike Berkley, Department of Computing Services, University of Waterloo EAN: mberkley@dcsu.waterloo.cdn UUCP: {allegra,ihnp4,utcsri,utzoo}!watmath!watdcsu!mberkley [I think we're beginning to exhaust this topic. If any theologians would like to grace us with new formulations of the doctrine of election, I'd be only too happy, but I think we have seen this passage from most of the common viewpoints now. --clh]