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From: pez@pyuxn.UUCP (Paul Zimmerman)
Newsgroups: net.religion,net.religion.christian
Subject: The Damager God: A response (to Craig Stanfill)
Message-ID: <390@pyuxn.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 25-Oct-85 08:23:37 EDT
Article-I.D.: pyuxn.390
Posted: Fri Oct 25 08:23:37 1985
Date-Received: Sat, 26-Oct-85 07:50:29 EDT
References: <8508172148.AA02946@sdcc6.ARPA> <308@pyuxn.UUCP>
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Piscataway, N.J.
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Xref: linus net.religion:7654 net.religion.christian:1464

Craig,

	You are essentially correct when you state the following dichotomy
between my beliefs and the beliefs of God whorshipers as follows:

> 1. God created the universe and man.            2. God is benevolent.
					(versus)
> 3. God did NOT create the universe and man.     4. God is malevolent.

	Then you say the following:

> The Judeo-Christian belief is based on the Bible and on our individual
> relationships with God in prayer.  We believe what it says about God.
> And we feel His presence when we pray, and we hear His voice when he
> talks to us.  The two agree; when God tells me something, it is
> understandable in terms of the scriptures.

	And that sums it all up. You BELIEVE what it says. You BELIEVE
what God says. How many times does God have to lie and deceive and damage
and interfere before you will stop believing his filthy lies? You say
``God could not possibly be part of the universe'' because ``the acts of
God in the scripture make it clear that God is above physical laws.''
I beg to differ on two counts. First, the preponderance of evidence
supporting belief in the actions of God as described in the Bible (the
flood, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, the parting of the Red Sea)
shows archeological evidence of explainable physical events occurring at
these times, thus proving that this God works WITHIN existing physical laws,
although obviously exercising great (though far from omnipotent) power.
Second, even if you could prove that God transcends the laws of THIS
universe, does He transcend the laws of His own universe? And how was that
universe (and of course God) created?

	Then you claim that ``suffering is evil'' is just my opinion,
that each person's relationship to God (in suffering) is ``an individual
thing.'' You say that YOU do not attribute your own suffering ``to ill
will on His part.'' Well, that's all well and good, that YOU don't
attribute it to Him, but the fact remains that He is responsible for
direct interference in nature that causes damage in our lives. If not
Him, who? Us? Are you claiming that evil (instead of good) is part of
the natural flow (within us and within nature) and that God infuses
good into it all? That sounds a little backwards to me. Doesn't it sound
that way to you? You conclude that particular paragraph by saying ``It
is not for us to look at the suffering God visits on our fellow man
and judge God as good or evil.'' HOW DARE YOU make this claim! If it is
not our place to do this, then whose place is it? Certainly you are making
this claim based on you assumptions about anything God does and says being
good. I claim not only that it is appropriate to judge God in this way,
that it is a prerequisite for real fellowship with the human race (instead
of fellowship with an alien despicable filthy God).

	Finally, you say ``it is dangerous to take the Bible as partially
true. If you accept accounts of God drowning the Pharaoh's army and
destroying Sodom but do not accept God as the benevolent creator of the
universe, you are doing just this.'' I find this sort of odd, because when
you claim that God is good, you blithely ignore all these things you mention
here. And you forget that God's word in the Bible is no better than an account
of Watergate written by Richard Nixon. Why believe it in light of all He has
done and all He stands for?

Be well,
-- 
Paul Zimmerman - AT&T Bell Laboratories
pyuxn!pez