Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site gargoyle.UUCP Path: utzoo!lsuc!watmath!clyde!cbosgd!ihnp4!gargoyle!carnes From: carnes@gargoyle.UUCP (Richard Carnes) Newsgroups: net.politics.theory Subject: Re: Property,justice,freedom Message-ID: <239@gargoyle.UUCP> Date: Sat, 9-Nov-85 17:10:00 EST Article-I.D.: gargoyle.239 Posted: Sat Nov 9 17:10:00 1985 Date-Received: Sun, 10-Nov-85 06:33:31 EST References: <1099@mtuxo.UUCP> <238@gargoyle.UUCP> Reply-To: carnes@gargoyle.UUCP (Richard Carnes) Organization: U. of Chicago, Computer Science Dept. Lines: 46 Summary: Libertarians versus freedom In article <238@gargoyle.UUCP> carnes@gargoyle.UUCP (Richard Carnes) writes: >In Libertaria you would be forcibly prevented from driving someone >else's car without his or her permission. I neglected to add that you would not be free to drive on the streets without the permission of the owner of the streets or payment of his fee, at least in some versions of Libertaria. When libertarians figure out how air and sunlight (or the sun itself) can be privately owned, you will have to pay for these too (if the owners wish to sell). So much for the claim of libertarians to be defenders of freedom. "Libertaria," in fact, is a gross misnomer -- the concept of Libertaria (in its various versions) has no particularly close relation to liberty. But "liberty" is one of those doubleplusfeelgood words. The signs on the barbed-wire fences surrounding the hypothetical libertarian society should read something like: "Private Propertaria -- Keep Out." Turning from a hypothetical to a historical example, in the various enclosure movements in England, the ownership of the "commons" (the tracts of land that were available to all for the grazing of sheep, growing of crops, habitation, etc.) was transferred from joint ownership to private ownership. This was a significant diminution of the freedom of the commonfolk (as of course it still is), and was perceived as such. As a Norfolk laborer said: "You do as you like, you rob the poor of the Commons right, plough the grass up that God sends to grow, that a poor man may feed a Cow, Pig, Horse, or Ass; lay muck and stones on the road to prevent the grass growing." (Quoted in E.P. Thompson's great study, *The Making of the English Working Class* [pp. 230-231], which should be force-fed to libertarians; or alternatively they should be forced to read it.) "Libertarian" principles also diminish such civil liberties as freedom of speech and assembly, in that quote-unquote libertarians (let's call them "entitlement theorists") hold these freedoms to derive entirely from the rights of private property. Without a "public space" in which to speak or assemble, the proponents of views unpopular with large property-owners (like the abolition of capitalist private property) will find it difficult to publicize their views. If the owners of Usenet decide that Marxist ideas are a little too much to tolerate on their network, then it's hasta la vista for some of us. -- Richard Carnes, ihnp4!gargoyle!carnes