Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.3 4.3bsd-beta 6/6/85; site sdcc7.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!decvax!ittatc!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdcc3!sdcc7!ln63fac From: ln63fac@sdcc7.UUCP (Rick Frey) Newsgroups: net.religion.christian Subject: Re: God and suffering Message-ID: <153@sdcc7.UUCP> Date: Mon, 4-Nov-85 16:14:11 EST Article-I.D.: sdcc7.153 Posted: Mon Nov 4 16:14:11 1985 Date-Received: Fri, 8-Nov-85 05:14:48 EST References: <134@sdcc7.UUCP> <803@cybvax0.UUCP> <2028@umcp-cs.UUCP> Organization: U.C. San Diego, Academic Computer Center Lines: 99 Summary: Out of hand dismissals Charli, The fact that you don't agree with me is fine. The fact that you simply dismiss what I said out of hand without discussing it or even thinking about it is not that good. Especially when it's a crucial, often misunderstood area of understanding what's going on in the Bible. I'm going to ignore Mike's comments :-) and have me be the >> and you be the single >'s. I don't want this to sound like I'm offended. I'm just bummed that you feel it's such a ridiculous idea that you don't even need to disprove it when, unfortunately, all the evidence is on my side. > >> Part 1 - Where does evil come from. While Genesis uses the word death, the >> Bible speaks of death (and I feel consequently evil) resulting from man's >> original choice to disobey God. Not to make this sound like beginning >> Sunday school, but that is traditional Christian doctrine. > > And anyway, this is an erroneous statement of "traditional" christian > doctrine (and I'll repeat for the n-teenth time that there has been a > plurality of doctrines since about AD 200). Tradition can mean pertaining to old customs and cultures but according to American Heritage Dictionary it also means a coherant body of precedents. The coherant body of precedent on the issue of the origin of sin says just what I said above. See any Bible dictionary if you still disagree. I'm not arguing that there haven't been many other views that are part of the past history and can therefor be considered 'traditional', but traditional has a more accepted meaning of a standard over time, and the standard over time is the paragraph above. > >> As hard as it is to understand, I feel that both God and man are >> responsible for evil. Man's part we've already looked at, but just to >> add one point, not only does the Bible say that Adam sinned, but Paul, >> in Romans, says that as Adam sinned, so do all men. To me this >> means that I'm not suffering unjustly for something Adam did, I'm a joint >> instigator and cause of the problem. > > Well, that is again a misstatement of any of the doctrines. The doctrines > generally have in common the theme that we have created human nature so that > we inevitably choose to sin. The fact that temptations enter into this is > irrelevant, as it is in shoplifting. > I'll assume the doctrines you were referring to are those concerning original sin. Two small things. What do you mean by saying that 'we have created human nature so that we inevitably choose to sin'? Did we create something? Is John 1:1-3 not true? Secondly, in many ways I think we don't understand fully the ideas behind original sin. Unfortunately I don't know the correct answer, but Paul says, "As Adam sinned". Adam sinned by choice and so do I. >> In John 1:3 it says, "And >> without Him (Christ) was not anything made that was made an all things were >> made by Him." God throughout Isaiah continually claims to be the sole >> creator of everything, so to some extent, God is the creator of evil. > > Evil is not a thing. Evil is an action that men do. > Ok, here is the crux of everything. In the beginning God ... There was nothing else. God preknew everything that would take place if He were to create the world and He did create it. Nothing would exist if God did not create it and anything that does exist, exists with God's knowledge and consent. Secondly, reread John 1:1-3. God isn't simply taking credit for things, John belabors the point that God has created everything and that nothing has come into being that was not created by God. You can try to say that that only means things, but nothing, no things, no ideas, no concepts no anything exists outside of God. That doesn't mean that God is evil, only that God knew before hand what would happen if He created the world the way He did, and that He DID choose to create the world, given all of that. C.S. Lewis talks alot about this in the Space Trilogy and while he doesn't come to any specific conclusions, he talks alot about God knowing that He created imperfection (or something that would lead to imperfection) so that He could then do something even greater than a creation that never fell (i.e. Malacandra). I'm not sure what the answer is, but if I know the outcome of an action that I am thinking about taking, and I take it, to some extent, I am responsible for the outcome. To me a clear distinction is that God is not the creator of evil or evil in Himself, but He is the producer of a play in which there is evil and He read the script ahead of time. He didn't edit it out of the script, or not produce the play, so if no play comes out without God's stamp on it and God read the script ahead of time and still chose to produce it (fund it, give it His time and energy) than explain to me how God is not to some extent responsible for evil. Now, to explain what I believe and what I feel the Bible teaches. A good example would be that of a hired assassin. If they both get caught, both will go to jail. The assassin, even though he was paid and wouldn't have done it if the other person hadn't of hired him is still responsible. The person who hired the assassin has the moral responsibility of being part of the cause of the action that took place since it would not have taken place if he hadn't have offered to pay money. To apply this to God, God is the hirer, but instead of offering us something simply wrong, He has put us in a world where evil can be chosen. He doesn't support it, it is not part of Him, but it is in His world. We (the assassins) while we are being forced to choose and forced to be accountable for our actions, are still responsible for our choices. God created the world that way and it's His world. But God is responsible for me being here, for me having to choose and for there being a world where evil is a choice. Rick Frey