Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site utai.UUCP
Path: utzoo!utcsri!utai!gkloker
From: gkloker@utai.UUCP (Geoff Loker)
Newsgroups: net.books
Subject: Re: Middle Earth (Tolkien) Questions
Message-ID: <852@utai.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 30-Oct-85 11:24:19 EST
Article-I.D.: utai.852
Posted: Wed Oct 30 11:24:19 1985
Date-Received: Wed, 30-Oct-85 12:51:36 EST
References: <1182@rayssd.UUCP>
Reply-To: gkloker@utai.UUCP (Geoff Loker)
Distribution: net
Organization: CSRI, University of Toronto
Lines: 110
Summary: 

In article <1182@rayssd.UUCP> djb@rayssd.UUCP (Douglas J. Bonn) writes:
>Question #1:
>Why did the Council of Elrond not seize upon the resistance of the race of
>dwarves to the Ring? In other words, should not Gimli, Gloin's son, have
>been chosen as Ringbearer? He could not have been turned into a wraith.
>	. . .  I already know that the "burden" could not be laid upon
>someone's shoulders, but it seems to me that JRRT overlooked this possibility.
>What would have happened had Gimli been the Ringbearer?

"The Dwarves indeed proved tough and hard to tame;  they ill endure the
domination of others ... nor can they be turned to shadows.  They used
their rings only for the getting of wealth;  but wealth and an over-
mastering greed of gold were kindled in their hearts, of which evil
enough after came to the profit of Sauron."
	     - 'Of the Rings of Power & the Third Age' in 'The Silmarillion'

Tolkien states that the Dwarves had a natural desire for gold and the
riches of the earth, and that the rings enhanced this vice in them.
Although he could not be controlled by the Nazgul or Sauron, Gimli
could have been perverted/diverted from his task by the power of the
Ring itself.  Especially upon finding himself in Moria or in the Caves
of Helm's Deep.  What Dwarf could resist the temptation to set up a
kingdom?

Besides, how would the council get the Ring away from Frodo?  He wouldn't
give it up willingly.

>Question #2:
> . . . "Which of the Rings of
>Power still existed in Middle Earth after the Sailing of the Keepers?"
>My answer was the chief of the Nine Rings, that of the Witchking of Angmar.
>Though powerless after the One had been destroyed, I assumed that it had
>been found on the Pelennor Fields during the clean-up, and preserved as
>an heirloom in Gondor, or in some museum somewhere.

"Now the Elves made many rings;  but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule
all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly
to it and to last only so long as it too should last."
		     - 'Of the Rings of Power & the Third Age'

So the rings were destroyed when the Ring was.  The Elven rings weren't
because Sauron never had any sort of contact with them or control over
them.  The others were too closely bound to the One Ring, though, to
survive its destruction.

>			. . .				 I assumed
>that each of the Nazgul wore his(/her?) ring since becoming enslaved to it.
>I assumed wrongly. JRRT makes it clear that (in the Silmarillion, I think,
>perhaps the Akalabeth) Sauron held all the Nine and the three of the Seven
>that survived.

The only reference I could find to Sauron collecting and holding the rings
was when the rings were first made, and before he passed them out.  In
fact, JRRT states that Sauron *held* the remaining rings of the Seven and
that he *controlled* the Nine.

> . . . Why did Sauron not use the Nine (and even the Seven)
>to enslave more powerful men: why not have an army of Nazguls? Why only Nine?
>As Frodo and Gollum could have been turned into wraiths by the One Ring,
>why could the Nine not have multiple "victims"?

First, the Seven were for the Dwarves who had proven relatively immune to
the rings and, so, probably wouldn't work on Men.  Secondly, all evidence
I could find pointed to the fact that the Nazgul wore the Nine -- if they
didn't, would they still have been wratihs?  Finally, Sauron was trying
to gather his power together so it could grow, rather than expend it in
creating more Nazgul.

>Question #3:
>Sauron went to great trouble in the middle of the Third Age to recover
>all of the Seven that survived. Why? What use were they to him? It didn't 
>seem that he used them at all.

As I said above, Sauron was in a stage of regathering his power.  After
his defeat at the end of the Second Age, he lost much of his power and
it was only after ~3000 years that he had enough to try to stage a
power play for control of Middle Earth.  The rings, when they were made,
had much of his power put into them so that he could control them with
the One Ring -- his gathering together of the Seven was an attempt on
his part (probably successful, too) to regain some of his former power.

>Question #4:
>How did Denethor keep from spilling the proverbial gruel to Sauron via
>palantir about the Quest of "the witless halfling"? He knew of the Quest and
>its mission before Faramir was wounded, and he used the palantir while he
>was wounded.

"He was too great to be subdued to the will of the Dark Power . . ."
			- 'Return of the King', Book V, chapter 7

In Appendix A under the section 'The Stewards', Tolkien states that
Denethor contested the will of Sauron for many years through the Palantir,
and that he eventually came to see the war as a struggle between himself
and Sauron.  He was, after all, a man descended from Numenorean stock
and had a strong mind.  It was strong enough to keep Sauron from gaining
much/any useful information from him, but it was not strong enough to
wrest control of the Stone from Sauron.  (However, Aragorn's was.)


Comments?
-- 
Geoff Loker
Department of Computer Science
University of Toronto
Toronto, ON
M5S 1A4

USENET:	{ihnp4 decwrl utzoo uw-beaver}!utcsri!utai!gkloker
CSNET:		gkloker@toronto
ARPANET:	gkloker.toronto@csnet-relay