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From: crs@lanl.ARPA
Newsgroups: net.news
Subject: Re: Creating new groups (net.internat, net.os, et al)
Message-ID: <32531@lanl.ARPA>
Date: Mon, 28-Oct-85 18:19:21 EST
Article-I.D.: lanl.32531
Posted: Mon Oct 28 18:19:21 1985
Date-Received: Tue, 29-Oct-85 14:53:12 EST
Distribution: na
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory
Lines: 106

Yes, I do have a few thoughts, but first let me tell you enough about
me to put them into context.  Basically, I'm a hardware type (EE) with
latent software tendencies (:-).  I've done a little programming of
various types, etc. but I'm not very knowledgeable about how the net
works.

I do know, however, that the bandwidth required for an information
bearing newsgroup is no greater than that of a noise bearing group of
the same or lower volume.

> If we won't allow a net.bizarre to exist because it
> was created outside of established procedure, we cannot allow
> net.internat to be created either.  The purposes and nature of the
> groups are different, but the point remains the same.  Arguments about
> merit of a newsgroup really aren't appropriate here -- if the net is to

But shouldn't they be?  (I realize the difficulty; see below.)

> be judged based on the volume (=popularity?) of newsgroups, then Usenet
> is not primarily for technical or theoretical discussions.  Rather, the
> net is a forum for cranks and flamers with some technical content
> thrown in now and again.

While I understand the concepts of expediency and practicability, I
hope it will be possible to devise a scheme to address the problem of
allowing worthwhile but low volume groups to be formed and to exist.  I have
thought for a while now that there should be some mechanism for
handling this problem, but, no, I don't have any idea what it is.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy some of the high noise, high volume groups
(eg net.women) but I think, in an ideal world, there would be room for
groups on interesting topics even if present volume doesn't so indicate.
(Yes, I know this isn't an ideal world but it is something to think
about.) A case in point is net.analog.  For quite a long time after it was
formed, the volume was very low but there were a few of us who
faithfully followed what there was.  Now the group is moderately
active and often serves quite a useful purpose.

******
The main thing that I question is that volume *should* be the main or
only criterion for formation or existance of a group.
******

I agree that groups should be formed properly, with proper discussion
and that it makes sense that this discussion should take place in a
newsgroup designated for that purpose.  The fact that this doesn't
always take place is, I believe, an educational problem.  I have always
assumed that only a (relatively) few persons have the priveledge of
creating a newsgroup.  Is this true?  Are they an identifiable subset
of the user community?  Is there anyway that this subset can be
automatically reminded of correct procedure periodically?  I know that
I have trouble remembering things that I don't use often and I assume
that those able to form newsgroups are not widely different, in that
respect, from those of us who are not.

The problem with net.announce.newusers is that most of us unsubscribe
once we have read it (and then forget what it is called; I just had to
look it up :-().  Perhaps actual newsgroup *formation* should be "moderated"
analogously to submission to a moderated newsgroup.  Perhaps this could
be done through the backbone sites (but not necessarily *totally* under
their control).  Yes, I do realize that this is placing a further
burden on those who have been kind enough to act as backbone sites.

> Perhaps it is time we explored defining a new set of rules for creating

YES!

> and retaining newsgroups.  Volume of postings is not the best criterion

Correct!

> for measuring the utility of a group, but it certainly is the easiest
> to measure.

Also true.

> We probably need to come up with a new procedure for
> deciding whether to create a new group, and when to delete an old one.
> If you have any thoughts on these topics, post them as a followup to
> this article, only post them to "net.news".

I seem to recall that somewhere, probably in the part that I edited
out to make this more manageable in length, a comment was made to the
effect that it is time to create a new newsgroup when the volume on a
certain subtopic posted to an existing group exceeds a certain
threshold.  This is fine as *one* indicator that a new newsgroup
should exist.  But what if there is *NO* existing newsgroup to which
posting is appropriate?  What if there is a very interesting,
*technical* topic which some users would like to see explored on the
net but it doesn't fit any existing group at all?  Should one be rude
enough to post to a randomly selected group?  Is there no one who can
come up with a mechanism to address this problem?

What about creation of a temporary group with a mechanism to expire in
n months where n is a reasonably small number.  Then, if volume
warrants, before expiration the group can be made permanent, otherwise
it dies a natural death.  

Sorry this got so long.

-- 
All opinions are mine alone...

Charlie Sorsby
...!{cmcl2,ihnp4,...}!lanl!crs
crs@lanl.arpa