Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site spar.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!philabs!prls!amdimage!amdcad!decwrl!spar!ellis From: ellis@spar.UUCP (Michael Ellis) Newsgroups: net.politics.theory,net.politics Subject: Re: Extent of hunger in America Message-ID: <615@spar.UUCP> Date: Thu, 24-Oct-85 08:29:43 EST Article-I.D.: spar.615 Posted: Thu Oct 24 08:29:43 1985 Date-Received: Thu, 31-Oct-85 03:49:18 EST References: <4056@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU> Reply-To: ellis@spar.UUCP (Michael Ellis) Organization: Schlumberger Palo Alto Research, CA Lines: 57 Keywords: pigs Xref: linus net.politics.theory:1363 net.politics:11026 >We could provide, free for the asking, no questions, >a full-time diet, and even deliver it to their homes, for all the >people Richard claims are hungry, for less than half of one percent >of what we spend on socialist programs now. If it were as easy as you say, then by all means -- DO IT! >Why does Richard not >espouse this? Because he is *not interested in hunger per se*. >He is interested instead in *using* hunger to further his political ends >of increasing government control of the economy. He is, in a word, >EXPLOITING the hungry. -JoSH FLAME ON!! Why does JoSH complacently propose feudalistic rationales which benefit only those who are already well established? Because he is *NOT interested FREEDOM FOR ALL*, only *freedom of those conformist whities to permanently establish their hold of the stolen wealth of this continent.* Because he wishes *to create and become part of a permanent propertied gentry*, similar to that from which the founders of this nation fled (and, no doubt, intended to establish for themselves). He would, in 4 words, EXPLOIT the hungry -- FOREVER! Never mind that we stole this land from red peoples, EXACTLY as the South African slave-masters are attempting to do right now. Never mind that we stole from the black peoples, raping their descendents of all dignity and inheritance. Never mind that we bleached the minds and cultures of all who have succeeded here, erecting a new religion of mechanical sterility, material gain, and worship of the flimsy anglo-male image. FLAME OFF!! Sorry, JoSH -- but I feel your comments about Richard were totally off the mark. Not that I care much for Marxism or Big Bureaucratism, but Richard hardly deserves the kind of BS you dumped on him! Our social welfare systems in the past have indeed been ineffective. Like most socialist proposals, they have suffered from lack of accountability, and inability to motivate those whom they are helping to become self-reliant. Please remember, however, that the hungry people Richard referred to were those, in particular, who cannot possibly escape -- unemployables, like those who are very old or those who are very young. Maybe we can let the old people suffer and die. The young undernourished ones, however, will be with us for some time. Economically, they are an investment. There are also many who are mentally ill, retarded, and otherwise permanently unemployable. If we will not help these hidden people (our society has many such souls stashed away -- I have seen them), ideally, by providing creative and productive roles for them, we are not fit for the gift of rational consciousness we so fortuitously possess. -michael