Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site psivax.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!philabs!cmcl2!seismo!lll-crg!ucdavis!ucbvax!decvax!ittatc!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdcrdcf!psivax!friesen From: friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) Newsgroups: net.religion.christian,net.religion Subject: Re: Reply to Charley Wingate - (Holy)GhostBusting the Christian Tradition Message-ID: <842@psivax.UUCP> Date: Wed, 6-Nov-85 19:17:31 EST Article-I.D.: psivax.842 Posted: Wed Nov 6 19:17:31 1985 Date-Received: Sun, 10-Nov-85 03:35:54 EST References: <1263@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP> Reply-To: friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) Organization: Pacesetter Systems Inc., Sylmar, CA Lines: 74 Xref: linus net.religion.christian:1580 net.religion:7789 In article <1263@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP> gary@sphinx.UChicago.UUCP (gary w buchholz) writes: > >Childs, Sanders and Charley all appeal to "apparition"(=Holy Spookery) >as operative in Christian tradition over against Koester et al and the >historical school who see no such specter at work... > > "Could not God in the Holy Spirit [Spook] so work with all the > individuals in the believing communities, at all the points along > with way of the canonical process, as to weave these texts to Gods > own purpose and truth ? " > >...it would be a simple matter to "ferret out" a number of the >immutable truths that have been delivered by the Holy Spook to "great >church theologians" through the centuries... > <<< A series of examples of church leaders such as Cyril of Alexandria, <<< Tertullian, Constantine, and Theodoret <<< who held extremely bigoted opinions. > >Basically, Charley, with this model of "Holy Spirit" and God's >providential work/action in history can theologically justify and >legitimate any and all of the above as "acts of divinity". > >Lets understand this. Sanders posits this as a rhetorical question. > > "Could not God in the Holy Spirit so work with all the > individuals in the believing communities, at all the points along > with way of the canonical process, as to weave these texts to Gods > own purpose and truth ? " > >If Sanders is right then we have learned Gods truth about jews (they >are deranged), about women (they are the source of all heresy) and >about Arian theology ("...consigned to the fire, so that not only his >corrupt teachings may vanish, but no memory of him at all may remain.") >and about the true gospel (two hundred copies of Tatians gospel revered by >"Christian" churches burned by Theodoret at the emperors orders). Except that noe of your examples come from the scriptures! They are all the individual actions of individual men. It is in fact remerkable that in spite of them the Bible is essentially free of their more extreme polemic. This can be viewed as evidence that perhaps the Holy Spirit really did have something to do with the origin of the scriptures! Certainly I do not believe that *all* actions by religious leaders are correct and holy, or even inspired. Thus I see no way to argue that the Holy Spirit must necessarily been involved in these actions. In fact these extreme positions have in general been *rejected* in the long run. >Here is where Sanders et al enlist the aid of a specter and the >"canonical method". Again, > > "The model canonical criticism sponsors AS MORE NEARLY TRUE to what > happened, and what happens, is that of the Holy Spirit at work all > along the path..." > >Thats a hard one indeed !! Does Sanders mean what he says in light of >church fathers such as Cyril, Tertullian and Jerome. The path to canon >included the "burnings" of Constantine and Theodoret. Does Sanders wish >to subsume under "Gods Truth" the action of the Roman Emperor and his >"systematic destruction" of texts ? The exclusion of women from the >clergy ? The denigration of the jewish people ? NO, but I would say that God was able to use these evil actions by fallen men to bring about the accomplishment of His goals, which is something quite different. It is saying that even if individual men, even powerful leaders, blow it and head the wrong way God's purposes are still accomplished. > -- Sarima (Stanley Friesen) UUCP: {ttidca|ihnp4|sdcrdcf|quad1|nrcvax|bellcore|logico}!psivax!friesen ARPA: ttidca!psivax!friesen@rand-unix.arpa