Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/17/84; site mhuxr.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxr!mfs From: mfs@mhuxr.UUCP (Damballah Wedo) Newsgroups: net.women Subject: Re: what makes you feel feminine/masculine? Message-ID: <469@mhuxr.UUCP> Date: Sat, 26-Oct-85 00:17:59 EDT Article-I.D.: mhuxr.469 Posted: Sat Oct 26 00:17:59 1985 Date-Received: Sat, 26-Oct-85 08:27:56 EDT References: <248@ssc-vax.UUCP> <1944@reed.UUCP> <32@ubc-cs.UUCP> <848@homxb.UUCP> <37@ubc-cs.UUCP> <1246@mtgtzz.UUCP> <1305@mtgzz.UUCP> Organization: The Poto Mitan in the Houmfor Lines: 69 > Sharon Badian: > ...of course, I have to generalize! I can't name every man in > the world and say "Well, this one feels this way, and that one feels some- > thing totally different." I think the one's who have voiced complaints > lately know that I am talking about them. They are the only ones who can > answer my question since they feel that way. Your article was full of references to generic "men." If you meant by that the three or four men who have already agreed with you, you should have said so. > .... The reality is that in business women and minorities have > to follow the same rules that men follow. > .... But again I have to ask "If you, as a man, find the rules > unfair, and know that other men feel the same way, why don't you try to > change the rules?" ... > why after so many years of male dominination in business, are you complaining > about something that men, as a group, could change if they wanted to? > And don't ask me how! Groups of individuals have significant clout > in our society. And considering the power, money and influence that men, > as a group, have, it seems absurd to think that they can't change the > rules under which they operate. It seems obvious to me that most men > either like the current set of rules, are ambilivalent, or have given up > trying. First, a group's power is a in direct proportion to how unified the group is in support of specific issues. Such a consensus does not exist in favor of the changes you speak of. Second, recognition that something is not perfect does not imply that a proposed alternative is better. For example, capitalism is deeply flawed, founded as it is on greed canceling out greed. Considering the practice of proposed alternatives, however, I'll stick to it. Third, what is your alternative? Before you answer that question, ask *yourself* if *you* would vote for a male presidential candidate who wore earrings. Finally, the limited sample we have (Imelda Marcos, Margaret Thatcher, Michele Bennett Duvalier, Isabelita Peron, etc. among contemporaries; Catherine the Great, Messalina, Marie-Antoinette, etc. among historical figures) proves rather conclusively that women are as likely to be dictatorial, incompetent fuck-ups as any male. So what exactly would be gained by men "becoming more like women?" > .... Maybe I should take a survey > and see how many people actually thought the question meant "Well, I sure > wish men could be more like women. Why can't they??!!" instead of "Why > don't men feel free to do feminine things in our society?" That is precisely how I understood your comment. I still disagree. There is a Japanese proverb that goes "the nail that sticks out shall be hammered back in." Now EVERY society has similar priciples, even in ones, like that of the US, that nominally value individualism. If one wants to stick out, one must be prepared to get hammered. If one does not wish to get hammered, or one is not able to handle getting hammered, perhaps one should consider not sticking out quite so much. I don't mean to enforce homogeneity. I do mean that if one is not self-confident enough to be different, one should not be different. To say it yet another way, I don't consider it my problem if some guy does not feel free to do feminine things. I will not prevent him from doing them, but ultimately, *he* has to be comfortable enough with himself to do whatever it is he wants to do, and be proud of doing it. -- Marcel-Franck Simon ihnp4!{mhuxr, hl3b5b}!mfs " Sot pa touye'-ou, li fe`-ou sue' "