Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site oberon.UUCP Path: utzoo!lsuc!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!allegra!oliveb!hplabs!sdcrdcf!oberon!walker From: walker@oberon.UUCP (Mike Walker) Newsgroups: net.politics.theory Subject: Re: Re: Health Care, Wonderful Market fo Message-ID: <148@oberon.UUCP> Date: Mon, 28-Oct-85 00:31:32 EST Article-I.D.: oberon.148 Posted: Mon Oct 28 00:31:32 1985 Date-Received: Thu, 31-Oct-85 19:11:43 EST References: <1764@psuvax1.UUCP> <10300@ucbvax.ARPA> <1774@psuvax1.UUCP> <10355@ucbvax.ARPA> <1231@ihlpg.UUCP> Reply-To: walker@oberon.UUCP (Mike Walker) Organization: U. of So. Calif., Los Angeles Lines: 46 Summary: >Unbelievabe. First, there is the unwarranted ad-hominem characterization >of Piotr Berman as a leftwinger, because he thinks there are social needs. >By that standard, even Ronald Reagan is a left-winger. If leftwinger means the same as collectivist then RR is leftwing. Generally the left to right political scale is irrational; what is the scale graduated in? > Now, about "social needs". How about starting with adequate food, >clothing and shelter for all? Almost every non-libertarian would agree with >these. Conservatives might stop there, liberals might add a few more, while >social democrats would add a lot more. Who decides? Why, the electorate, >through its elected representatives, of course. Since social needs >are not defined in Libertarian economics, they clearly don't exist. Many libertarians (small l for nonparty) would say they don't other than as the sum of all individual needs. This abstracts the needs (desires, ends) from their owners. This way the politically powerful can walk all over the needs of the politically weak while they persue the common (Read 'their own') welfare. First, abstract interests from the individual so as to destroy the idea that individual needs (desires, ends) are significant. Second, define the common good to be the ends that the power elite want to persue. Its a beautiful of hiding the fact that they're harming one person to benefit another person. > Market demand may very well be an adequate reflection of the demands >of the society. But my demand for food won't give me a supply in >Libertaria if I have no money and no job. Guess I will have to hit you >over the head and steal yours. Such is Libertaria. >-- >Bill Tanenbaum - AT&T Bell Labs - Naperville IL ihnp4!ihlpg!tan Ah! But in social-democracia you don't have to hit someone over the head to take their money; the government does it for you and people "hardly feel it." No need to get your hands dirty with theft, just send a letter to your representative and he will see that IRS goons do the rest. At least most robbers have the self honesty to admit they're hurting their victims but only a politician has the nerve to tell his victims that its for their own good. :-( -- Michael D. Walker (Mike) Arpa: walker@oberon.ARPA Uucp: {the (mostly unknown) world}!ihnp4!sdcrdcf!oberon!walker {several select chunks}!sdcrdcf!oberon!walker