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From: dsg@mhuxi.UUCP (David S. Green)
Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish
Subject: Re: Women's participation (MCP ?)
Message-ID: <366@mhuxi.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 29-Oct-85 13:21:54 EST
Article-I.D.: mhuxi.366
Posted: Tue Oct 29 13:21:54 1985
Date-Received: Thu, 31-Oct-85 08:03:15 EST
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Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill
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> David Green writes:
> > I often wonder if MEN realize the obligations they attempt to take on
> > vis-a-vis orthodoxy.  Most of what I have read in favor of excluding women
> > from participation is baloney, at best.  Many orthopracts are of the "do as
> > I say, not as I do" school.
> 
> Since Mr Green considers himself in a position 
> to judge . . .

Mr. Green used phrases and words such as "I often wonder, most and many" in
the posting; merely an observation, not a "judgement." [Side note: You
call me "Mr" (sic), how do you know it is not Dr. Green or Master Green
or Dovid HaMelech or Senor Green . . .]
 
> At the present time, women are not obligated to perform mitzvot that are
> fixed in time, such as praying with a minyon.  ASSUME that this restriction
> is lifted and they must pray with a minyon.  It is the first Shabbat after
> the restriction is lifted and it is time to go.  But, there is a baby
> who can not walk.  If the family can not afford or find a baby sitter
> what should they do?  Should they carry the baby (and everything that goes with
> one!) to services and break the rule that one can not carry on Shabbat?  

Assuming the family is as frum as you would like to believe, they would of
course live in an area with an "Eruv" and therefore be quite able to
wheel the baby.  [Another note: I would prefer to hear the sound of a
baby in shul than the "orthodox" men discussing the latest line on the
Jets or the relative merits of Gary Carter vs. Keith Hernandez . . .]

> Or, should one person stay at home and not fulfill her or his obligation?
> Remember, we are asking women to take on additional obligations, not asking
> men to give up current obligations.

If I recall, a minyan is only needed to recite Kaddish and the Kedushah during
the repetition of the Amidah, etc.  One can still have services without a minyan.
Again, would a "frum" couple live in an area where a shabbos minyan is
hard to come by?  *WE*  ARE NOT ASKING WOMEN TO TAKE ON ADDITIONAL OBLIGATIONS,
*SOME*  ARE ASKING TRADITIONAL ORTHODOXY (AND OTHER BRANCHES) FOR MORE EQUITABLE
PARTICIPATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
> Most Orthodox men pray with a minyon on Shabbat if they are able to
> do so.
> Michael L. Schneider

Before I say "bullfeathers" to the above statement, one must define
orthodox; something *I* am not about to do.  It has been my experience
that most members of orthodox shuls in the NY-tristate area attend
services twice per year, at best.

The point that I am trying to make is that orthodoxy has succeeded in
alienating a large percentage of Jewish women and men.  I am not
advocating breach of Halakha;  I am just looking for a little realism
and perspective.  Somebody once said something about "He who is free from
sin should cast the first stone", sounds like good advice to me!

But then again, maybe the orthodox establishment has alienating Jewish
women and men as a goal.  Sometimes I wonder.
David S. Green, noted computer scientist [noted by whom?]