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From: ln63fac@sdcc7.UUCP (Rick Frey)
Newsgroups: net.religion.christian
Subject: Re: God and suffering
Message-ID: <153@sdcc7.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 4-Nov-85 16:14:11 EST
Article-I.D.: sdcc7.153
Posted: Mon Nov  4 16:14:11 1985
Date-Received: Fri, 8-Nov-85 05:14:48 EST
References: <134@sdcc7.UUCP> <803@cybvax0.UUCP> <2028@umcp-cs.UUCP>
Organization: U.C. San Diego, Academic Computer Center
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Summary: Out of hand dismissals

Charli,

The fact that you don't agree with me is fine.  The fact that you simply 
dismiss what I said out of hand without discussing it or even thinking about
it is not that good.  Especially when it's a crucial, often misunderstood
area of understanding what's going on in the Bible.

I'm going to ignore Mike's comments  :-)  and have me be the >> and you be
the single >'s.  I don't want this to sound like I'm offended.  I'm just
bummed that you feel it's such a ridiculous idea that you don't even need to
disprove it when, unfortunately, all the evidence is on my side.
> 
>> Part 1 - Where does evil come from.  While Genesis uses the word death, the
>> Bible speaks of death (and I feel consequently evil) resulting from man's
>> original choice to disobey God.  Not to make this sound like beginning
>> Sunday school, but that is traditional Christian doctrine.
> 
> And anyway, this is an erroneous statement of "traditional" christian
> doctrine (and I'll repeat for the n-teenth time that there has been a
> plurality of doctrines since about AD 200).  

Tradition can mean pertaining to old customs and cultures but according to
American Heritage Dictionary it also means a coherant body of precedents.
The coherant body of precedent on the issue of the origin of sin says just
what I said above.  See any Bible dictionary if you still disagree.  I'm not
arguing that there haven't been many other views that are part of the past
history and can therefor be considered 'traditional', but traditional has a
more accepted meaning of a standard over time, and the standard over time is
the paragraph above.
> 
>> As hard as it is to understand, I feel that both God and man are
>> responsible for evil.  Man's part we've already looked at, but just to
>> add one point, not only does the Bible say that Adam sinned, but Paul,
>> in Romans, says that as Adam sinned, so do all men.  To me this
>> means that I'm not suffering unjustly for something Adam did, I'm a joint
>> instigator and cause of the problem.
> 
> Well, that is again a misstatement of any of the doctrines.  The doctrines
> generally have in common the theme that we have created human nature so that
> we inevitably choose to sin.  The fact that temptations enter into this is
> irrelevant, as it is in shoplifting.
> 
I'll assume the doctrines you were referring to are those concerning original
sin.  Two small things.  What do you mean by saying that 'we have created
human nature so that we inevitably choose to sin'?  Did we create something?
Is John 1:1-3 not true?  Secondly, in many ways I think we don't understand
fully the ideas behind original sin.  Unfortunately I don't know the correct
answer, but Paul says, "As Adam sinned".  Adam sinned by choice and so do I.

>> In John 1:3 it says, "And
>> without Him (Christ) was not anything made that was made an all things were
>> made by Him."  God throughout Isaiah continually claims to be the sole
>> creator of everything, so to some extent, God is the creator of evil.
> 
> Evil is not a thing.  Evil is an action that men do.
> 
Ok, here is the crux of everything.  In the beginning God ...  There was
nothing else.  God preknew everything that would take place if He were to
create the world and He did create it.  Nothing would exist if God did not
create it and anything that does exist, exists with God's knowledge and
consent.

Secondly, reread John 1:1-3.  God isn't simply taking credit for things, John
belabors the point that God has created everything and that nothing has come
into being that was not created by God.  You can try to say that that only
means things, but nothing, no things, no ideas, no concepts no anything
exists outside of God.  That doesn't mean that God is evil, only that God
knew before hand what would happen if He created the world the way He did,
and that He DID choose to create the world, given all of that.  C.S. Lewis
talks alot about this in the Space Trilogy and while he doesn't come to any
specific conclusions, he talks alot about God knowing that He created
imperfection (or something that would lead to imperfection) so that He could
then do something even greater than a creation that never fell (i.e.
Malacandra).  I'm not sure what the answer is, but if I know the outcome of
an action that I am thinking about taking, and I take it, to some extent, I
am responsible for the outcome.  To me a clear distinction is that God is not
the creator of evil or evil in Himself, but He is the producer of a play in
which there is evil and He read the script ahead of time.  He didn't edit it
out of the script, or not produce the play, so if no play comes out without
God's stamp on it and God read the script ahead of time and still chose to
produce it (fund it, give it His time and energy) than explain to me how God
is not to some extent responsible for evil.

Now, to explain what I believe and what I feel the Bible teaches.  A good
example would be that of a hired assassin.  If they both get caught, both will
go to jail.  The assassin, even though he was paid and wouldn't have done it
if the other person hadn't of hired him is still responsible.  The person who
hired the assassin has the moral responsibility of being part of the cause of
the action that took place since it would not have taken place if he hadn't
have offered to pay money.  To apply this to God, God is the hirer, but
instead of offering us something simply wrong, He has put us in a world where
evil can be chosen.  He doesn't support it, it is not part of Him, but it is
in His world.  We (the assassins) while we are being forced to choose and
forced to be accountable for our actions, are still responsible for our
choices.  God created the world that way and it's His world.  But God is
responsible for me being here, for me having to choose and for there being a
world where evil is a choice.

					Rick Frey