Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site cybvax0.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!cybvax0!mrh From: mrh@cybvax0.UUCP (Mike Huybensz) Newsgroups: net.politics.theory Subject: Re: Taxation is theft Message-ID: <762@cybvax0.UUCP> Date: Wed, 18-Sep-85 11:32:54 EDT Article-I.D.: cybvax0.762 Posted: Wed Sep 18 11:32:54 1985 Date-Received: Sun, 22-Sep-85 17:44:44 EDT References: <955@umcp-cs.UUCP> <1110@umcp-cs.UUCP> Reply-To: mrh@cybvax0.UUCP (Mike Huybensz) Organization: Cybermation, Inc., Cambridge, MA Lines: 78 Summary: In article <210@graffiti.UUCP> peter@graffiti.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes: > > Let's put aside (for the moment) the problem of new citizens (which > > hypothetical libertarias don't seem to handle well.) You are now an > > adult. You can come and go as you will. So why isn't the social > > contract entirely voluntary? > > In the absence of a libertaria to emigrate to you can't regard > the social contract as voluntary. There does not exist the option of > negotiating with your feet that you seem to assume. I have come to the > states because it is the nearest approach to a free society that I have > been able to find. One has no choice but to make SOME social contract, just as one has no choice but to eat. (The alternatives lead to the same result.) Your choice of which social contract is essentially free (sorry I wasn't clearer.) Libertaria would just be another form of social contract, putatively with lower overhead and simpler rules. > It is interesting to note that whenever a Libertaria attempts to form, for > example in southern California, it gets squashed by the state which insists > on enforcing the social contract on a group of people who have unanimously > rejected it. This happens to both left-wing and right-wing Libertaria. This is the same as the free-market monopolistic practice of underselling invaders of your local monopoly at the point of entry. The only difference is that power is the currency. In order to compete in the free market of government services, libertaria must be able to assert power: else it will be vulnerable to assimilation. The same as a small business forced to sell out to a too successful large competitor. > > Guess what: we already have most of that. I've seen quite a number of > > reports from many sources evaluating the relative merits of the 50 states > > (and numerous nations) in all the categories above. Moving between > > states is as effortless as you wish. Moving between many nations is only > > a little more difficult. > > Speaking as one who has recently moved between nations, let me just note that > moving between nations is an extremely difficult task even for a country as > free as this. I would like to suggest you try it some time. There are usually costs involved in changing providers of services. Uncoerced choice isn't necessarily free of cost. Take for example the replacement of one employee by another. Usual costs include departure costs (X weeks of notice, other contractual matters), costs of finding and interviewing new candidates, moving expenses, training time, and the learning curve. > > But keep in mind that the provider of services > > should not be coerced into accepting you as a customer for one of their > > social contracts. If they don't like your race or nationality or religion > > or language or job, they should be able to arbitrarily refuse to make a > > contract with you. So you mustn't complain if you cannot get to be a > > resident or citizen of any particular nation. > > And what happened to "free and equal" partners? Am I a free and equal partner of McDonalds when I go in for a hamburger? What if I ask them for a steak, and they refuse to cooperate? Are you suggesting that they should be coerced into the provision of steaks, when they have determined that they can maximize their profits with their current menu? So why should any state be coerced into granting you (as a voluntary immigrant) any status that it doesn't wish to grant you? > > In the US and a number of other nations, government effectively is a > > matter of voluntary contract (for adults.) You still haven't shown me > > any evidence to the contrary. > > Try renegotiating your social contract by any means, and see how voluntary it > really is. I could emigrate to another nation tomorrow. Upon changing my citizenship (by renunciation or accepting other citizenship), I can cut any claims to taxes on my future earnings, conscription, or other requirement by the US government. -- Mike Huybensz ...decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!cybvax0!mrh