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From: ix415@sdcc6.UUCP (Rick Frey)
Newsgroups: net.religion,net.religion.christian
Subject: Re: What constitutes proof of the existence of God?
Message-ID: <2204@sdcc6.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 12-Sep-85 03:34:09 EDT
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Posted: Thu Sep 12 03:34:09 1985
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Summary: proofs and more on the Bible

In article <330@pyuxn.UUCP>, pez@pyuxn.UUCP (Paul Zimmerman) writes:
> Rick,
> 	You repeatedly claim that I do not offer proof of the existence
> of God. I find this strange, since you have already mentioned to me that
> you are a believing Christian. Certainly it is not you I need to offer
> proof to. 

That would be true if we were talking about the same God.  But the one
to whom you refer evolved (??) and is evil and doesn't have the
properties of the one I believe so I'd be interested in hearing about
how this God came about.
 
> There are three possibilities for modeling the forces of good and evil.

Who said anything about modeling the forces of good and evil.  You don't
belive that God has existed eternally and you don't believe that He was
created so where did He come from?  Did He evolve?  Were there others that
evolved?  I asked this last time and this is the question that I want to hear
your proof of.  I don't claim to have 'proof' that God exists.  I believe
there is 'evidence' but that is significantly (and not just semantically)
different.  Or are just going to assume that a non-corporeal, way-powerful
deity evolved even when many scientists don't believe there was enough time
for human evolution to have gotten as far as it has?
> 
> 	Rick, you did make the simple statement that ``Jesus Christ WAS
> God.'' And I showed that that statement is simply an assertion that
> Christians make, believing what God has told them. Don't you see how
> His saying ``See? I have become human and suffered just like you.'' is
> a ruse and a sham? 

You showed?  There is alot more evidence supporting that a actual, human man
walked this earth 2000 years ago and did the miracles He is reported to have
done than there is evidence in anything you've said so far in this whole
discussion.  You simply made an assertion back.  Without going any further
about my belief, where do you get you evidence for Christ being a duped human
and a pawn of the damager-God?  From the Bible??  From your 'observations'?
Forgive the accusatory tone of this paragraph, but you keep stating that
you've done something that I don't ever seem to see you having done.
> 
> 	What else could you blame Hitler or Manson's abnormalities on?
> Are you falling for another of God's lies, about the fallenness of man?
> Is the reason that you ``just flat out refuse'' to admit that the evil
> done by men is God's fault because you are just afraid to admit this?

Forgive me for not remembering who said this, but in discussing how one would
act if free will didn't (or might not) exist, his conclusion was to go ahead
and think he had it anyway, because if he doesn't than it's some divine joke
and it was determined and there's no way out and if not, that's the way it
really is.  So I still say that evil is a volitional choice and that Manson,
Hitler were just as bad as Sister Therassa (sp??) was good.  Why is it that
only evil is controlled by God?  Doesn't it seem kind of convenient that
everything wrong gets blamed on God and all the good stuff comes only when God
is too lazy to really screw us or when we as people outsmart (outsmart a
omniscient God??) and sneak in some fun without His being able to do anything
about it.  Doesn't that just seem a little convenient?  Would you put up with
that excuse from your kids?  "Sorry Mom, I didn't clean my room because the
evil, damager-God made me be bad."
> 
> 	I know you refuse to accept a response that would contradict what you
> want to believe about God. And that, of course, is truly sad. You ``speak with
> forked tongue'' when you talk about the Bible as bringing joy and happiness.
> You offhandedly dismiss thousands of years of hatred in the name of God (as
> if saying ``that doesn't count''). Don't you see that that's part of the
> elegance of God's method of lying? Make it seem like He's written a book of
> love, when in reality He's written a textbook on death and hatred. 

But that's my question.  Show me some of the death and hatred that God wrote
down for us to follow.  Love your enemies?  Bless them that curse you and pray
for them who despitefully use you?  Are these the words that inspired the
inquisition?  How about, "all those who live by the sword will die by the
sword."  Did the Bible inspire the inquisition or did men?  And how about the
chruch's burning of Ptolemy at the stake because he didn't accept their
doctrine without thinking.  I can't find the reference right now, but Paul, in
one of his letters to a church commends them for searching the scriptures and
examining the apostles teaching to see if it is true.  Did the Church look at
this verse when they refused to allow dissenting opinions from thier
doctrines?  And how about the class set up the the church perpetuated, the
poor people continually being treated as if they weren't quite of the same
value as the church officials and the lords and nobles of the great houses (I
hate to use the word great here).  The Bible clearly says that in order to be
first you must be last for even the Son of Man didn not come to be served but
to serve.  Throughout the gospels, Christ commands us to love our neighbor as
ourself.  Name one 3rd century through 20th century political or religious
leader who lives even a small part of that.  Then think about how many
governments and people have come in the 'name' of Christ.  Where is the
conflict?  In the Bible or in the men?  The Bible defines its purpose and
nature quite clearly, "It is the Spririt who gives life; the flesh profits
nothing; the words that I (Christ) have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
But there are some here who do not believe."  (John 6:63,64)  "If you abide in
My word, then you are truly disciples of mine; and you shall know the truth
and the truth shall set you free." (John 8:31,32)

				Rick Frey