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From: mrh@cybvax0.UUCP (Mike Huybensz)
Newsgroups: net.politics.theory
Subject: Re: Re: (micromotives & macrobehavior)
Message-ID: <755@cybvax0.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 16-Sep-85 15:50:17 EDT
Article-I.D.: cybvax0.755
Posted: Mon Sep 16 15:50:17 1985
Date-Received: Fri, 20-Sep-85 00:36:42 EDT
References: <3476@topaz.UUCP> <28200078@inmet.UUCP>
Reply-To: mrh@cybvax0.UUCP (Mike Huybensz)
Organization: Cybermation, Inc., Cambridge, MA
Lines: 78
Summary: 

In article <28200078@inmet.UUCP> janw@inmet.UUCP (Jan Wasilewsky) writes:
> > [Mike Huybenz]
> > The fact is that the wealth of a nation does not feed the poor.

Note that Jan has quoted me out of context.  The sentence following the above
was essentially "The distribution of wealth is what determines whether
the poor eat."

>  Omit the "not" to get a fact. In the USA, one can eat like a
> king off a garbage dump. One hour's work at McDonald's could feed
> a 3d world citizen for a week. 

Note that this argument was in criticism of libertaria.  In libertaria,
food refuse from McDonalds would probably be sold as feed for pigs or
chickens that would be raised nearby within city limits because of the
lack of zoning.  (One of the few ecologically sound aspects of libertaria.)
On the other hand, there would be no incentive to allow the poor to go
through the trash, and numerous disincentives ranging from liability to
sanitation to competition to poor image.

>  To prove his point, Mike would have to name a rich nation whose
> poor are *poor*  not by THAT country's standards, but *by poor
> country standards*. There's no such place. 

What a non-sequiteur.  All I need to demonstrate my complete point, is to
name a nation that has sufficient wealth to feed more of its citizens
than are fed, but doesn't feed them.

>  The poor of any nation know they profit by its wealth. Proof:
> they seldom or never migrate to poorer countries, at least for
> economic reasons.

They HOPE to profit.  The fact is that they often remain poor and starving
in other countries as well.

>  If "distribution of wealth" mattered more to the poor popula-
> tions than its abundance in society, you would observe them
> flocking from wealthier countries to poorer but more welfare-
> oriented countries  - e.g., from Hongkong to PRC. Or from USA
> to Great Britain. All economic migrations go the other way.

What about the settlement of the USA?  For centuries poor from GB and
other wealthier nations came here: for free land.  There was unused land
available in those nations, but it tended to be tied up in large private
estates because of the poor distribution of wealth.  There are similar
migrations today, from nations where a few large land owners own most of
the commercially and agriculturally productive land.

>  Even inside a poor country, refugees from a  famine area know
> that reaching a  prosperous province means life. Try telling
> *them* trickle-down does not work.

Try telling the starving in Ethiopia that the government is trickling
down the food for them sent by us, and not pilfering, reselling, and
otherwise keeping it out of their hands.  I hope they eat you.  :-(

>  The problem of poverty hinges on wealth creation, NOT on its
> distribution.  To verify this, list nations, first in the order of
> per capita GNP; then according to *per capita consumption of pro-
> tein*.  This is a  nice indicator because it tells you how the
> great mass of citizens live. The rich can only eat so much pro-
> tein, so they cannot distort the picture. I haven't done it be-
> cause I have no doubt of the result. Distribution takes care of
> itself, one way or another.

Distribution may take care of itself if there is enough wealth, but only if
the powerful and wealthy are willing to allow it or subsidize it.  There
are too many examples of export of food from famine areas by force of arms
or force of market.  The poor in a subsistance economy cannot outbid the
rich for foodstuffs, even if the rich wish to feed it to pigs.

Wealth creation too is dependent upon distribution of wealth.  Small private
farms tend to be much more productive than large communal farms or large
estates (depending on the agricultural conditions), and thus are the
goal of many types of land reform.
-- 

Mike Huybensz		...decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!cybvax0!mrh