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From: barry@ames.UUCP (Kenn Barry)
Newsgroups: net.politics,net.religion
Subject: Re: "Secular Humanism" banned in the US Schools.
Message-ID: <1137@ames.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 13-Sep-85 16:05:13 EDT
Article-I.D.: ames.1137
Posted: Fri Sep 13 16:05:13 1985
Date-Received: Wed, 18-Sep-85 03:31:17 EDT
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Organization: NASA-Ames Research Center, Mtn. View, CA
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Xref: watmath net.politics:11032 net.religion:7670

>Has it ever occured to any of us that this country really IS a religious/
>christian country and should be coined as such to the extent that Iran is
>considered a Muslim country, or Russia is considered an atheist country
 
	If you notice how Russia and Iran treat those who don't subscribe
to their respective state religions, I think no further answer is
necessary.

>Would it be religious tyranny for the federal government to take a stand on
>religious issues?

	It is religious tyranny for the government to support any particular
set of religious beliefs, or to show any special favor to particular
religious groups.

>Has religious tyranny existed in this country?

	The Mormons; the Ghost Dance religion; the Quakers; the Jews;
the Catholics; all, and many more, have suffered religious oppression
in this land. But we have done better in this regard than have most other
countries, particularly those with state religions.

>The seper-
>ation of church and state I believe originally meant that people would have
>the freedom to worship as they pleased without government oppression.  I
>don't believe it meant the exclusion of government in declaring itself to be
>of a religious faith if it thought itself as much.

	This is truly silly. A government doesn't "think of itself" as
anything; a government doesn't think. *People* think, and there are no
doubt people in government who think of the US as a "Christian" country.
Fine by me, as long as they don't try to give their opinions the force
of law.

>Some people would make the
>claim that if our government took a stand on religion that those who believed
>differently would be singled out or somehow alienated.  I don't think so.  The
>Constitution and the Bill of Rights protects all the people the same as it
>protects members of the Nazis or Communist party even though these people in
>principle don't agree with and in some cases would like to abolish our form
>of government.
 
	If you're advocating some sort of empty statement of principle
about the US being Christian, it is both untrue, and a totally fatuous
suggestion. If you're advocating something more than an empty statement,
then you're talking about giving some religious group special priveleges,
and that's discrimination. Either way it's a bad idea.

>One final thought, if the Government declared this country to be founded on
>the beliefs that upset some people, would those people have a legitimate right
>to claim that this declaration was unconstitutional because of a violation of
>their rights?

	The Constitution is, as always, what the Supreme Court says it
is. I would think that declaring the US Christian would be about as direct
a violation of the 1st Amendment as one could imagine, and fortunately
the 9 people whose job it is to decide such things seem likely to agree,
based on what they've decided in the past.
	I would consider people that authored such a law to be either
religious bigots, or terminally silly, depending on their intent. The
former is unfortunately more likely than the latter, which is why such
a declaration would cause me deep concern, and have my active opposition,
were it proposed seriously. The Thought Police already have most of the
world for their playground; let's not invite them into our homes.

-  From the Crow's Nest  -                      Kenn Barry
                                                NASA-Ames Research Center
                                                Moffett Field, CA
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