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From: mmt@dciem.UUCP (Martin Taylor)
Newsgroups: net.politics.theory
Subject: Re: Re: Newsflash! [JoSH on Socialists]
Message-ID: <1688@dciem.UUCP>
Date: Sat, 21-Sep-85 14:08:29 EDT
Article-I.D.: dciem.1688
Posted: Sat Sep 21 14:08:29 1985
Date-Received: Sat, 21-Sep-85 20:17:03 EDT
References: <389@drutx.UUCP> <1674@dciem.UUCP> <10430@ucbvax.ARPA>
Reply-To: mmt@dciem.UUCP (PUT YOUR NAME HERE)
Organization: D.C.I.E.M., Toronto, Canada
Lines: 70
Summary: 


>>>"political reality"  Isn't that an oxymoron? :-)  Besides, government is not
>>>a source of wealth.  Unlike uncles, government cannot generate wealth; it can
>>>give only what it takes from people who produce.
>>
>>That is false.  Wealth is created by the re-organization of things
>>(the reduction of entropy, if you like).
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>When I took physics, I was taught that entropy always increased.
Then you misunderstood your physics.  Entropy increases over a closed
system.  Here we are talking about a system fueled by energy mostly obtained
from the sun (yes, a "free lunch").  In the presence of energy flows,
entropy in a subsystem can and often does decrease (organization increases).
That's what life is all about, whether of biological or social orgainisms.
>When I took
>economics, I was taught that the only way to increase wealth was to produce:
>and that generally takes labor.  Oh, economists will argue that one can get
>some factors to produce more than they did before, but the way to do this is
>to remove artificial barriers to production.  Hint: what is the most prominent
>barrier to production or exchange?

"Production" is the organization of raw materials or smaller parts into
a coherent entity (entropy reduction).  It is only the development of
such organization that creates wealth, and the organization that forms
"production" is often aided by social orgainization, whether private
or public.

The most prominent barrier to production or exchange is lack of mutually
agreed information.  I think both "libertarians" and "socialists" will
agree on this one, but thanks for bringing it up.
>
>>Government most definitely
>>can aid in such organization.
>
>A Canadian says this?  After 15 years of Trudeau?  TO see how government --
>your government, formerly mine -- "aids" such a reorganization, read "The
>Sorcerer's Apprentice", or how Trudeau and Jack Austin together bankrupted
>Calgary in the midst of an oil boom.

I do agree to some extent about Trudeau.  His governmental style became
increasingly capitalistic, and depressing to the economy.  I confess to
having become quite annoyed with his policies from time to time, because
of it.  But now I look back on those times with some nostalgia.
At least Trudeau had a set of principles to guide him, and a reasonably
well developed knowledge of the world and its interactions.  He certainly
put effort into an unpopular but essential cause -- the North-South
dialogue, and attempts to improve the prosperity of the Third World,
without which Northern prosperity will be hard pressed to endure.
>
>>Whether it is the most efficient way
>>of doing so is a different story, but to regard government as only
>>a transfer medium for existing wealth is like seeing a painting as
>>a transfer medium for oil and pigment.
>
>No one regards government as a transfer medium for existing wealth, unless
>you think of a black hole as a "transfer medium".
>
>                                Socialism Delenda Est,
>                                        Rick.
This is unclear, unless you think that civil servants dump their paychecks
into the sewers -- no, that wouldn't do it, because it would reduce only
the money, not the wealth.  Perhaps it must be that people don't buy things
with money passed through taxes?  No, that hardly seems right.  I give up.
What DO you mean?
-- 

Martin Taylor
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