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From: martillo@csd2.UUCP (Joachim Martillo)
Newsgroups: net.politics
Subject: Re: Islamic Mystics - The Sufi
Message-ID: <3630020@csd2.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 23-Sep-85 10:56:00 EDT
Article-I.D.: csd2.3630020
Posted: Mon Sep 23 10:56:00 1985
Date-Received: Wed, 25-Sep-85 10:49:33 EDT
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Organization: New York University
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/* csd2:net.politics / tim@k.cs.cmu.edu.ARPA (Tim Maroney) / 12:26 am Sep 19, 1985 */


>None of the monotheistic religions are sexually egalitarian.  Judaism
>incorporates many discriminatory commandments and temple practices.
>Christianity also incorporates discriminatory temple practices and has
>historically been very sexist.  I don't see Moslems as being qualitatively
>different from Jews or Christians in this respect.

There  is a  major dispute which exists  among the  various schools of
Islamic  Jurisprudence.   The schools dispute  whether  cutting off  a
women's clitoris is wajib (required) or merely mustahab (commendable).
Clitoridectomies are  an anathema to  Judaism.  In the blessing  after
meals, men say:

	We thank you God, our Lord ... for your covenant (refers to
	circumcision) that you engraved in our flesh. 

Jewish law specifically prohibits Jewish  women from saying  this part
of the blessing so  that noone would ever make  the error  of thinking
clitoridectomy is either required or even permitted in Judaism.

>This goes for every criticism of Islam I have heard put forth; it always
>comes down to seeing the mote in your neighbor's eye while ignoring the
>plank in yours.  Can anyone put forth a criticism of Islam which cannot be
>paralleled in Judaism or Christianity?  I doubt it very much, but am willing
>to entertain (public) suggestions.

Judaism  neither   prosyletizes  nor  requires  war   upon  non-Jewish
populations (except  for a very    few specific cases)  nor   requires
humiliation  of  non-Jewish populations  nor  requires degradation  of
non-Jewish populations.

All of these rather disgusting behaviors are intrinsic parts of Islam
vis-a-vis non-Muslims and non-Muslim populations.  For this reason the
continued existence of Islam as a religious/political/social system is
unacceptable in the world today.  

Now Don Steiny has made some specific claims about Sufism which
require comment:

>I suggested in one posting that it might be 
>worthwhile to try to understand Islam before making statements
>about it.  

I in fact read `Arabic, come  from an `Arabic  speaking household, and
my  family had been  under Muslim subjugation for  ~1000 years.  I  am
somewhat more qualified than Steiny to make comments on Islam.

>	    I pointed out that it is a well developed world
>religion, and that there are variety of practices and beliefs
>that all are Islamic.   

The social system of ante-bellum South was well-developed and had many
features that recommended it (unless of  course was non-White).   I do
not understand Steiny's point.

>			 I pointed out that the Shiites and
>the Sunnites have had wars with each other, so one can
>not necessairly quote a Shiite like Khomeni to form
>opinions about the Sunnites.  

As  a non-Christian I  have  little understanding  of the  differences
between protestants and  catholics which seem  utterly  trivial to me.
The differences between Shiites and  Sunnis are even  less.  With only
minor  qualification most statements one  could make about Sunni Islam
are applicable to Shiite Islam.

>			       I pointed out that even 
>within the Shiites, there must be considerable divirisity,
>because the Sufi's originated in Persia from the Shiite
>branch of Islam.  It was whole heartedly adopted by
>the Sunnites too.

At the  early stage of development of  Sufism,  Persia was Sunni   but
Islamic mysticism   continued to be practiced in   Iran long after the
nation became Shiite.

>	I am stunned to the highest degree by the Sufi.  Their
>beliefs are so compatible with contemporary thought that 
>it is like a mystical revelation to just find out about their
>beliefs.   It confronted me with assumptions that I did not
>even know I had, and showed me plainly that the world
>is far more rich than I will ever know.

Outside of Math and Physics humans have  had almost  no new ideas over
the past 3000-4000 years.  No one  should be surprised  that some Sufi
ideas  sound similar to  modern   concepts.   As  for similarities  to
Buddhism, Hinduism,  Confucianism, Daoism  etc., Islam  conquered  and
absorbed many peoples who practiced these belief system. No one should
be surprised that some ideas from the earlier  religions reappeared in
Islam.

Since Steiny is unable  to read Sufic thought  in  original context or
language he must be  careful about the meaning he  ascribes to some of
the passages.

----------
	
	Ordinary human love is capable of raising man to  
	experience of real love.

			Hakim Jami (1414-1492)
			ibid. p. 95

----------

	Love becomes perfect only when it transcends itself--
	Becoming One with its object;
	Producing Unity of Being.

			Hakim Jami (1414-1492)
			ibid. p. 95


I  would  guess    the above refer   to  homosexuality   (specifically
catamitism and pederasty) but I do not have the original texts.

There have been so Muslims that no one should be surprised that  a few
have  been   magnanimous.   Some   have   been   well-disposed towards
non-Muslims and have conceded that non-Muslim approaches to  God might
be valid.  Likewise Jefferson, a southern slaveholder could right that
all men were created  equal.  As Jefferson never freed  his slaves nor
really took  any serious  action  against  slavery  even though he was
magnanimous, likewise  I know of no Sufi  who ever publically declared
that treatment accorded to non-Muslims under Islamic law was  improper
and should be changed.

In  fact in  many    places, uprisings and  pogroms directed   against
non-Muslims were  incited at the  Sufi lodges.  This  is  particularly
true in the case of the Sanussi in Libya who have been responsible for
slaughtering  many  non-Muslims in Libya  during  the  19th  and  20th
century.

The Ikhwan al-muslimun in Egypt which was responsible for assasinating
Sadat also has origins in the Sufi lodges.