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From: tim@unisoft.UUCP (Tim Bessie)
Newsgroups: net.women
Subject: Masculinity/Femininity, baths, and conforming
Message-ID: <574@unisoft.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 3-Oct-85 15:43:42 EDT
Article-I.D.: unisoft.574
Posted: Thu Oct  3 15:43:42 1985
Date-Received: Sun, 6-Oct-85 05:08:17 EDT
References: <248@ssc-vax.UUCP> <1944@reed.UUCP> <32@ubc-cs.UUCP>
Reply-To: tim@unisoft.UUCP (Tim Bessie)
Distribution: net
Organization: UniSoft Systems, Berkeley
Lines: 79
Keywords: masculine, feminine, bath, conform
Summary: 

In article <32@ubc-cs.UUCP> andrews@ubc-cs.UUCP (Jamie Andrews) writes:
>     I find this amazing, though not necessarily bad.  Here in 1985,
>on a newsgroup devoted to women's issues, women are still talking
>about pampering themselves, wearing traditionally women's things,
>and being irrationally emotional as the things which make them feel
>feminine.

I find it amazing, too.  You have to acknowledge, though, that only 2
women have responded to the query so far.  Hardly a good sample.  Maybe
the ones with very different views don't want to publicly state them,
or think it unnecessary or silly...?

>     This makes me frustrated.  I would love to do just these kinds
>of things too, and to feel as good about it as you women do.  (Yes,
>including wearing skirts.)  But when I do anything like this, I feel
>more or less of a sense of discomfort -- in part because of my
>upbringing, but in part because even the women of today think of
>these things as very feminine, and don't understand when I do them.
>     I also can't feel good about doing traditionally masculine
>things, because of the bad feelings I associate with "playing the
>role".  About the only time I feel really masculine in a positive way
>is when I look at myself in the mirror after a shower;

Really?  So do I!  Or a bath (I like baths better.  Baths appeal to
both masculine AND feminine sides (if there are such things) in
me).  Yet, I wouldn't say 'masculine' to mean anybody else's notion
of what that word means.  As far as I'm concerned, when I look at myself
in the mirror, being please with my MALE form -- as a woman would and
should be please with her FEMALE form -- is the feeling of masculinity
or femininity.  It doesn't have to fit any classic shape.  It just
says, "I am a man, and this is what I look like, and I like it."  It
doesn't preclude me from wanting to then go put on a light cotten
robe, light a candel, dab some sweet-smelling oil upon my various
parts (-:), etc. and recline on a soft bed, under the stars, with soft
music... all just by myself, for myself.  That feeling of LUXURIOUSNESS,
maybe, of *quiet power* within onesself... that is common to feeling
comfortable with whatever sex you are.  That's what I think of when I
think of masculinity/femininity.  It also has to do with a kind of
oneness with nature and your immediate world.

>and the only
>time I feel really heterosexual (not the same thing) in a positive
>way is when my body responds to a sexy woman.
>     Am I alone, or do other men feel like this too?  I tell myself
>that this is all I really need, but society has a big influence when
>it says there's more to masculinity than this.

If I stuck to what society said masculinity was, I'd be very unhappy.
I've allowed myself to conform a little, though.  I used to wear very
loose cloths... drawstring pants, peasant shirts, etc. all in very
striking/pastel colors/designs... things usually considered feminine...
I'd always thought it was unfair that women are allowed, in our society,
to dress so nicely, with such a wide range of color and pattern, while men
are pretty limited.  Even if you go with reletively recent historic
costume, men's clothes haven't changed to much.
I also had quite long and curly hair.  The women at work all said how
lovely it was, but it seemed like people I met didn't take me too seriously.
So I got a haircut (several, actually... wasn't satisfied the first few
times), bought some regular ol' jeans, long-sleeve shirts (all cotton,
when I could find 'em), belt, etc.  Not very comfortable at first,
but I'm getting used to it.  AND, people respond to me more positively,
and women I know say how much more handsome I look (they can see my face
now), etc.

What makes me feel masculine, though, hasn't changed at all.  I still
feel inside the same way.  The packaging has changed a little, is all,
and I'm pretty happy with it.

				- Tim

---

	     "Time is for dragonflies and angels.  The former live
	too little and the latter live too long."
	---------------------------------------------------------------

---> Tim Bessie ----- {ucbvax,dual}!unisoft!tim
---> Unisoft Systems; 739 Allston Way; Berkeley, CA 94710
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