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From: teitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz)
Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish
Subject: Re: Re: Stolen software & halakha.
Message-ID: <1856@aecom.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 15-Aug-85 14:13:08 EDT
Article-I.D.: aecom.1856
Posted: Thu Aug 15 14:13:08 1985
Date-Received: Mon, 19-Aug-85 06:59:00 EDT
References: <1768@reed.UUCP> <253@sesame.UUCP>
Organization: Albert Einstein Coll. of Med., NY
Lines: 86

> 
> While you don't want a responce of dina d'malchut dina, there are
> specific laws protecting intellectual property, and these laws
> specifically include software.  It is a theft not only in the eyes
> of the law, but you (not personal you) ARE taking away from someone's
> parnosa (mine!!).
> 

    I never knew it was robbery to limit someone else's parnasa ( income ).
 The Torah relates laws of 'hasagat g'vul', encroaching on someone's 
 boundary. If I have a store in a city, another person is not permitted to
 open an identical store in the town because he will be taking away my
 livelihood. This, I would imagine, ( I don't have my sources wit me now )
 does not restrict me from opening a store at all. If I were in New York
 I doubt there would be a prohibition against my opening another store in a 
 different neighborhood. Also, if my prices ae different than my competitor's
 then I might be able to stay in business. The laws are more complex than this,
 and I will have to research the question ( as I promised when the original 
 letter was sent me, I haven't forgotten yet ). In any case, the poblem of
 taking someone else's livelihood is not such a simple topic.


> Aditionaly, the licence agreement is a contract that you accept when
> you buy the package, and breaking the seal **in halacha** is an acceptable
> kinyan, obligating you to keep the agreement.  The dinim of vows would
> thereby aply.
> 

     Again, do you have sources as to why a contract is considered a vow? THe
 laws concening the two ae totally different. If I break a contract I can be
 brought to court. If I break a vow I have committed a grave sin, but there
 is really nothing else that can be done.


> Also, halacha does recognize copywrite concepts, and software is
> generaly deemed to fall under this type of restriction.  True, there
> is a time limit, but then, even a few years of protection is not the
> same as none.
> 

	Do you have proof that software is copyrightable under halacha? Also, 
 does halacha have a statute of limitations as far as copyrights ae concerned.
 When discussing halacha one must quote sources as accurately as possible. I
 try always to quote. Unfortunately my memory is not perfect and I forget 
 sources. However, I do not make blanket statements of halacha without at
 least mentioning that I remember seeing something comparable to what I am
 quoting. If I just want to give my opinion of what I think the halacha should 
 be I say it is my opinion. One must be vey careful when quoting halacha not to  
 misrepresent personal opinions as halacha.


> And finally, software vendors DO NOT ship with the expectation of being
> robbed (thereby implying they have already given up hope...).  They are
> activly fighting it, and are adapting new technology to make it almost
> impossible [hardware key/keyring proposal by ADAPSO - more info in
> net.micros.pc if you're interested].
> 

	While software vendors are trying hard to prevent future robbery they
 might well be selling programs knowing full well that they will be pirated.
 They might have resigned themselves to this fact, which would constitute yi'ush. 
 Howeve, in addition to yi'ush, one needs shinuy r'shut, changing of ownership
 in order to have no problem with g'neva ( see g'mara Bava Metsia, exact page
 escapes me now ). When I copy a program it is in my ownership. Therefore the
 copying itself is not a shinuy r'shut, and even though there was yi'ush 
 there might be a problem of g'neva ( robbery ) with my copying of the soft-
 ware. This is by no means meant to be a thorough discourse on the subject,
 but it should start some discussion.

> In summation, not only would it be a chilul hashem for a jew to steal
> software, but this halachic situation would be dubious at best...
> 


	Why a chilul hashem, unless someone else found out about it. We are
 discussing the problems of robbery, and not all the problems inherent in 
 commiting a sin.


> Peace
> 

	Well said.


			Eliyahu Teitz.