Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site watdcsu.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!philabs!cmcl2!seismo!harvard!talcott!panda!genrad!decvax!harpo!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxr!ulysses!burl!clyde!watmath!watnot!watdcsu!dmcanzi From: dmcanzi@watdcsu.UUCP (David Canzi) Newsgroups: net.women Subject: Re: Rape (The nature of reality) Message-ID: <1599@watdcsu.UUCP> Date: Mon, 12-Aug-85 23:04:39 EDT Article-I.D.: watdcsu.1599 Posted: Mon Aug 12 23:04:39 1985 Date-Received: Sun, 18-Aug-85 23:18:42 EDT References: <25100002@smu> <25100003@smu> <2569@sun.uucp> <761@masscomp.UUCP> Reply-To: dmcanzi@watdcsu.UUCP (David Canzi) Organization: U of Waterloo, Ontario Lines: 68 Summary: Reality doesn't care. rdh@sun.uucp (Robert Hartman) writes: >> When women decide that they won't tolerate rape, and >>are themselves willing to do whatever it takes to prevent/avenge it, rape >>will stop -- perhaps with the help of technology. But, much as I regret >>saying it, I don't think rape will stop until then. Women, please do WHATEVER >>you must, and allow me to get the hell out of your way. miche@masscomp.UUCP (Miche Baker-Harvey) responds: >The above paragraph is very loaded. It says, if you read it backwards, >that women want to be raped: If they didn't, they would stop it, right? >This is obviously wrong, as I'm sure Robert would agree. This reasoning is bogus. What everybody does in response to a potential threat is to weigh the risk against the inconvenience of avoiding the risk, and make a choice. It does not follow that a person who doesn't do absolutely everything possible to avoid death *wants* to die. The same goes for rape. There are things women can do to reduce their chances of getting raped, such as being careful of where they choose to walk and when, or *openly* carrying a gun. I don't expect women to do absolutely everything possible to avoid rape; I only expect them to decide for themselves at what level they are willing to make their risk/inconvenience trade-off. Robert Hartman is wrong, I think, only in his implication that women can eliminate rape... short of rounding up and killing *all* men, there is no way to do this... risk reduction is the best you can do. > Women do NOT >have the power to stop rape; men do. Does this mean, since rape still >happens, that 'men want rape to happen'? We know for a fact that there >are men who do want rape to happen, and men who do not want rape to happen. ... >Men rape. It is the RAPIST's problem that he rapes. There is nothing >wrong with a woman who is raped, or women because women are raped. It >is not reasonable to expect women to stop rape. We can fight, we can >kill, we can scream, we can even discuss reasonably (occasionally ;-)), >but women can't 'not rape'. Let's not give responsibility for the >crime to the victim. Any statement to the effect that women can do something about rape is always automatically interpreted by somebody as "blaming the victim." Saying that women can do something about rape does in fact imply some responsibility on their part. This is not the same as saying that when a woman who has made some effort to avoid rape gets raped anyway, that it's her fault. The nature of reality is this: There are men who, given the opportunity, will commit rape. Women are able to do some things to avoid it, but avoidance tactics always involve some inconvenience. It does no good to object that it's the *men* who have the power to stop rape -- the men who have the power to stop rape are the rapists. Somehow I doubt that they want to. It does no good to object that the inconvenience to women of avoiding rape is unfair -- the inconveniences and risks are the same whether you feel it's fair or not. Reality is what it is. If you disapprove of reality, it will still be what it is. Reality doesn't need your approval. Reality doesn't care. Deal with it. -- David Canzi Ultimate tabloid headline: "Crazed by UFO radiation, pregnant man bites dog."