Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version nyu B notes v1.5 12/10/84; site csd2.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!gamma!epsilon!zeta!sabre!petrus!bellcore!decvax!genrad!panda!talcott!harvard!seismo!cmcl2!csd2!martillo From: martillo@csd2.UUCP (Joachim Martillo) Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish Subject: Re: Dvar Torah Project returns Message-ID: <3780068@csd2.UUCP> Date: Mon, 19-Aug-85 20:59:00 EDT Article-I.D.: csd2.3780068 Posted: Mon Aug 19 20:59:00 1985 Date-Received: Sat, 24-Aug-85 18:00:01 EDT References: <148@erc3ba.UUCP> Organization: New York University Lines: 57 Original article follows. Eliyahu Teitz is somewhat more correct than Bill Peters. Eliyahu is referring to the Hep!Hep! riots of 1819. Hep is a Crusader rallying-cry in Europe and later an accusation accusation of Jewish collaboration with Salah ad-Din and the Ottomans in general. HEP stands for Hierosolyma Est Perdita (Jerusalem is lost). The Hep!Hep! riots took place in Frankfurt, Darmstadt, Bayreuth, Karlsruhe, Duesseldorf, Heidelberg, Wurzburg and Copenhagen. Expulsions took place in Wurzburg and throughout Franken (Franconia), Schwaben (Swabia) and Bayern (Bavaria). Whether hip and hep are related is unclear. I have seen attempts to relate hip, hip, hurrah (earlier hip, hip, huzzah) to hep, hep oyez. Oyez is Norman French for hear ye (imperative plural) still used in some courts. Oyez is pronounced o-yez or o-yey (rhyming with they). The arguments are not incredibly persuasive. /* csd2:net.religion.jewish / wkp@lanl.ARPA / 12:46 pm Aug 16, 1985 */ > I heard in jewish history class a few years ago, that HIP stands for > Jeusalem is subjugated ( or something similar ) and that it was the Romans > victory cheer upon returning to Rome. Hardly a phrase to be used by Jews. > Eliyahu Teitz. References? Let's not scold someone else publicly until we make an attempt to investigate the etymological or philological sources. The word "hip" appears to be from Old English, where there are many variants of the word [Oxford English Dictionary], but the use of the exclamatory "hip" as in "hip-hip-horay" has an UNKNOWN etymology [e.g., Webster's 3rd international dictionary]. In addition, none of the Romance languages have this form, thereby indicating a non- Roman origin. According to Roman historians, the Roman soldiers came into Rome shouting "Iudaea capta!" [Judaea is conquered!]. This phrase was also coined on Roman coinage of that period. A misunderstanding might have arisen from the fact that many captive Jews died in the Roman "hippodrome". But in this case, the word has a Greek origin (ippo=horse, dromos=course) which is why many horse and chariot races were conducted in these ampitheatres. Another possibility is that the Roman greeting "eho, heus!" which Roman soldiers may have used upon returning to their friends may have been translated in some very old English books as "Hip!" which is equivalent to the modern English "Hey!" In any case, there is no evidence for Eliyahu's contention, and I believe that Jews can use the phrase "hip-hip-horay" with impunity. -- bill peter ihnp4!lanl!wkp /* ---------- */