Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site pyuxd.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!gamma!pyuxww!pyuxd!rlr From: rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Rich Rosen) Newsgroups: net.philosophy,net.religion Subject: Re: Pfui Message-ID: <1582@pyuxd.UUCP> Date: Sat, 24-Aug-85 14:50:21 EDT Article-I.D.: pyuxd.1582 Posted: Sat Aug 24 14:50:21 1985 Date-Received: Sun, 25-Aug-85 03:29:44 EDT References: <1276@pyuxd.UUCP> <2145@pucc-h> <1313@pyuxd.UUCP> Organization: Whatever we're calling ourselves this week Lines: 44 Keywords: logic chopping Xref: watmath net.philosophy:2417 net.religion:7471 > Assuming that I have truly characterized your metaphysics: > > `acausal' spontaneous decay MUST have a cause. > `free will' cannot exist because, by definition, all things > are determined. > `external to physical reality' is bogus, by definition > > The above would clearly result by logical necessity. Indeed. > However, you'd have to also conclude, if everything has a cause, that: > > There is also a cause for `awareness'. (let's call it a `luos') > There is also a cause for the universe. (let's call it `Dog') Or let's not. Dog (or its reversal) has specific connotations of a consciousness in charge, and louses (or whatever) have a connotation of separateness from the physical entity. > Furthermore, the circular argument pro-free will you just presented is as > empty as the your favorite anti-freewill argument: > > If free will exists, then it must be a physical phenomenon > All physical phenomena are determined by causes > therefore free will is determined by causes > but if it is determined then it is not free > > This is not unreasonable; it logically flows from your axioms. But your first statement uses a word that makes no sense in the context. > But freedom, like love or beauty, is a real and irreducible state of > mind (for some of us), even should our universe be totally deterministic. Love and beauty are observable phenomena by individuals. > Can I exist now? No, stay in your cage. Outside of reality. Where there are no causes. -- Meanwhile, the Germans were engaging in their heavy cream experiments in Finland, where the results kept coming out like Swiss cheese... Rich Rosen ihnp4!pyuxd!rlr