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From: rdh@sun.uucp (Robert Hartman)
Newsgroups: net.women
Subject: Re: Rape (A Solution?!) Response to Miche
Message-ID: <2670@sun.uucp>
Date: Mon, 19-Aug-85 17:47:47 EDT
Article-I.D.: sun.2670
Posted: Mon Aug 19 17:47:47 1985
Date-Received: Fri, 23-Aug-85 06:30:33 EDT
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Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
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I've been through three sets of reactions to Miche's posting, and
I'd like you to know about them.  Then, I'm going to shut up and listen.

> Robert Hartman writes:
> > 
> >                      When women decide that they won't tolerate rape, and
> >are themselves willing to do whatever it takes to prevent/avenge it, rape 
> >will stop -- perhaps with the help of technology.  But, much as I regret 
> >saying it, I don't think rape will stop until then.  
> 
> The above paragraph is very loaded.  It says, if you read it backwards,
> that women want to be raped:  If they didn't, they would stop it, right?
> This is obviously wrong, as I'm sure Robert would agree.  Women do NOT

1st Reaction:  This is a cheap shot.  I didn't write it backwards, and my 
intent is being deliberately misconstrued.  I feel angry and defensive.
There is a difference between wanting something, and tolerating what you
don't want.  

2nd Reaction:  She has a point.  Perhaps people will see this as an excuse
not to help, or as a rationale to blame the victim.

3rd Reaction:  If women don't take steps to make rape alot more painful for
the rapist, who will?  If all men benefit from a climate in which rape can
occur, or if all men are latent rapists, men won't.  I hope that this isn't 
the case, but I'm not sure that it isn't.  Often men who don't
like rape don't know about it in time, or aren't on hand to stop it.  So, I
STILL stand by what I said, although I'll be VERY careful about how I word it.
I am aware that this places the responsibility for a woman's personal
safety on HER.  

There is a course given in Palo Alto called "model mugging."  In it, women
are encouraged to feel powerful.  Then, a man in a padded suit simulates
progressively heavy attacks on each woman.  The women are cheered on by their
classmates to defend themselves, and are taught techniques for doing so.
Of the 17 women who subsequently were attacked for real, 15 or so knocked
the attacker out COLD.  The others found less intense ways to get out of
the situation.  I encourage every woman to take a course like this.

> [paraphrase (vi bit me):  Women can't stop rape.]

All 3: I won't disempower you if you won't.  I won't be responsible for you if
you do.

> [paraphrase (vi bit me):  There are a hell of a lot of men who are unaware
> of how their actions] foster an environment in which rape is normal.  
> Ok, women, too.

1st:  I'm not one of those jerks.
2nd:  I am one of those jerks.
3rd:  Who will tell me about my behavior if I alienate all the women on the net?

> Men rape.  It is the RAPIST's problem that he rapes.  There is nothing
> wrong with a woman who is raped, or women because women are raped.  

1st:  There is nothing wrong with a woman who survives rape.  I didn't mean
to imply that there was, and I'm not sure that I did.
2nd:  There is nothing wrong with a woman who survives rape.
3rd:   "

> is not reasonable to expect women to stop rape.  

1st:  It isn't FAIR.  But rape isn't fair, and there is no Superman.
2nd:  If all men are latent rapists, it doesn't do you much good to hire one
to protect you. If I were a woman, I'd sure as hell protect myself.
3rd:  No, but you can make it alot harder on a rapist, before, during, and
after.

> Let's not give responsibility for the crime to the victim.

All 3:  OK.  But lets not give responsibility for stopping it to its 
(potential) perpetrators.  

> Does this remind anyone of the scene in 'Games Mother Never Taught You'
> where the new women employee was told that she was responsible for the
> comfort of the seasoned, experienced males?

All 3:  No, and I feel trashed by this, despite catching the irony.  I felt that
the irony was misplaced a bit.  I said up front that I was a male, and that I 
felt somewhat unqualified to speak to the issue.  I don't THINK I believe that 
women are here for my comfort without the converse also being true. If you 
would be more comfortable with my silence, you can say so directly.  I promise 
that I'll try to hear what you say, not what I think you have said.  I wish I 
could say that for my brothers.  -bob.