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From: ted@imsvax.UUCP (Ted Holden)
Newsgroups: net.origins
Subject: Catastrophic Evolution/ more on large animals and extinction
Message-ID: <367@imsvax.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 9-Aug-85 09:48:29 EDT
Article-I.D.: imsvax.367
Posted: Fri Aug  9 09:48:29 1985
Date-Received: Mon, 12-Aug-85 05:52:56 EDT
Organization: IMS Inc, Rockville MD
Lines: 148


               In a recent article in net.origins, I wrote:

          >    In  recorded  history,  no  entire species has ever perished
          >from a major continent other than at the  hand of  man.  Ancient
          >man   was   not   capable   of   this,  especially  not  against
          >sabre-tooths, super-lions,  Pterotorns  etc.   ONLY VELIKOVSKIAN
          >EVOLUTION CAN  EXPLAIN EXTINCTION.  Whole species became extinct
          >not from being unfit, but from being at  the wrong  place at the
          >wrong time as tidal waves rolled over whole continents and other
          >unhealthy   events   occurred.    The   largest   animals   were
          >particularly  susceptible  to  extinction  since  they  had  the
          >hardest time getting to high ground or cover..... 

               Wm. Jefferys of the UT astronomy dept. replied:
           
          >It  is  well  established  that the first people in the 
          >Western hemisphere were responsible  for the extinction 
          >of  most  of  the  large  mammals  in  North  and South 
          >America.  They had nothing but stone weapons, but their 
          >methods were extremely effective. 
           
               I replied with an  admittedly  unfair  challenge  to  the UT
          astronomy  dept. to   actually  attempt  a  pteratorn  hunt  with
          spears.  Before replying to some of the howls of anguish this has
          aroused, I  would like  to go over several very sound reasons for
          sticking with my original thesis.

          1.   Several useful animal species  including  horses  and camels
               became extinct  in the  Americas several thousand years ago.
               No ancient tribe in its right mind would  exterminate all of
               the horses in it's local.

          2.   The natives which the first white men in America encountered
               were living in perfect harmony with nature, killing only for
               food.  Since  one mammoth would feed a large tribe for a hell
               of a  long  time,  there  is  no  chance  that  these people
               exterminated the mammoths.

          3.   There is  a hell  of a  difference between  trying to kill a
               lone elephant, a  straggler  or  lone  bull,  and  trying to
               exterminate elephants  generally.  The  latter would involve
               attacking HERDS of elephants in which  the females  would be
               attempting to protect the young, FAR more dangerous.

          4.   Attempting to  kill the PREDATERS of the archaic world would
               require modern weapons.  I just can't picture anyone killing
               a pteratorn or a north American super-lion (five feet at the
               shoulders) or an ice-age giant cave  bear with  spears.  The
               status of  archery in ancient north America is problematical
               at  best.   Consider  first  that  bows  only  became  truly
               significant in  warfare around 1200 AD or so with the advent
               of the British long bow and also of  the Mongolian laminated
               (wood and animal horn) recurve bow.  Consider also that Fred
               Bear, one of America's foremost  bow  hunters  and  owner of
               Bear Archery Co., made several attempts to kill a polar bear
               with a  modern  70  lb. hunting  bow  using  modern aluminum
               arrows with  steel tips.  He had a buddy backing him up with
               a 300 magnum rifle on each occasion and it was only on about
               the fifth  try that he didn't NEED that friend along.  After
               all of that, try to  picture  ancient  hunters  taking  on a
               pride  of  super-lions  with  reed  arrows, using stone tips
               fired from a bow carved with stone knives.  

          5.   Consider that rabbits and deer are tastier than elephants or
               super-bisons  etc.,  have  always  been  plentiful  in north
               America, and can be trapped and killed without  exposing the
               hunters to any extreme danger.  Enough said.



               Okay, so much for seriousness, now for the fun:



               Peter   DaSilva    didn't    believe      my      statements
          regarding Berkut eagles.  He writes:

          >11 Inch talons?  Have you ever seen an eagle?  Have you any idea
          >how ludicrous this is?

               Of course,  I meant  total span,  not eleven inches for each
          individual talon or claw which would  be ludicrous.   But I"m not
          making this  up, Peter,  honest.  Read  "Bird of Jove" by David
          Bruce,  Ballantine  Books,  1971,  Lib. of  Cong. cat  crd number
          70-136799.   Berkuts  are  found  in Khirgiz country in the USSR.
          They are  the  largest,  and  most  savage  and  powerful  of all
          eagles.   The  book  includes  photographs  of  the 24 lb.  eagle
          Mr. Bruce brought back  to  England  actually  killing  foxes and
          eye-witness accounts of Berkuts killing deer.  


               Don Heller of Shell D.C. writes:

          >Killing a mastodon is actually pretty easy.  Get about twenty
	  >people and throw rocks at it and eventually you can force it
	  >over the edge of a cliff.
          >

               I love  it!  Someone  from outer  space who heard this would
          naturally assume Mr. Heller  had killed LOTS of mastodons  and no
          longer regarded  it as  a challenge.  Being something of a Walter
          Mitty fan myself, I can't even  get riled  at this  one.  In real
          life, of  course, a  thirty lb. boulder  falling on  a Mammoth or
          Imperial elephants head MIGHT have gotten  his attention.  Twenty
          people throwing  rocks at  him would  undoubtedly have gotten him
          pissed off.

               People who know anything about Africa will tell you that the
          elephant is  the ONE  creature in the jungle that you do not EVER
          **** with, under any circumstances, for any reason.   A friend of
          mine  from  Rhodesia  described  an event which occured ten miles
          from his home in  which two  idiots from  New York  city blew the
          horn of  their little  Ford Cortina  at a herd of elephants which
          was crossing the road and taking their time  about it.   That, of
          course, to  a bull  elephant, is a challenge.  When the elephants
          finished with the Cortina,  it  looked  like  a  piece  of modern
          sculpture;    you  couldn't  tell  what  it  was.  The two idiots
          were luckier than they deserved to be, only cuts, bruises,  and a
          few broken  bones.  They  had to  be cut  out from under the dash
          with torches.


               In the original article, I wrote:

          >The problem for large birds is more appalling.  I  have actually
          >seen books which state that pterosaurs and pteratorns climbed up
          >mountains and then glided down again,  a hell  of a  hard way to
          >have to make a living. 

               Charles Forsythe of MIT writes:

          >That might explain why they died.

               Absolutely wrong.   You missed  the whole point.  Let us for
          the sake of argument assume a  uniformitarian world  in which the
          FELT EFFECT  of the  force of gravity had never varied from what
          we experience  now.  Given  that evolution  (whether Darwinian or
          Velikovskian) is  a process of adaptation to existing conditions,
          then this problem is not why they died, but why  they would never
          have evolved in the first place.

               I haven't got the time or energy to reply point by point to
          everybody  who  tries  to  refute  my  articles  point  by point.
          However, none  of  Mr. Forsythe's points  are  any closer on than
          this one;  I checked. 

//