Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84 exptools; site ihlpg.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxn!ihnp4!ihlpg!tan From: tan@ihlpg.UUCP (Bill Tanenbaum - AT&T Bell Labs - Naperville IL) Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish Subject: Re: Proof of Outlandish Propositions Message-ID: <1075@ihlpg.UUCP> Date: Tue, 13-Aug-85 13:44:46 EDT Article-I.D.: ihlpg.1075 Posted: Tue Aug 13 13:44:46 1985 Date-Received: Sat, 17-Aug-85 14:26:11 EDT References: <293@mit-athena.UUCP> <528@bu-cs.UUCP> <586@ihu1m.UUCP> <29280@lanl.ARPA> <612@ihu1m.UUCP> <29563@lanl.ARPA> Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories Lines: 24 > > [Yosi Hoshen] > > I didn't say that you can simultaneously determine the position and > > momentum of a particle. Quantum mechanics allows you to determine > > their expectation values. The issue is whether there is a mathematical > > model. I think mathematical model is possible. But such a model that > > considers all interactions is not solvable. > ------------------------------- > [Bill Peter] > The issue was whether or not it is possible to describe the universe > mathematically. The laws of physics themselves decree that > there exists a fundamental limitation to what is knowable. > Hence, there are phenomena in physics which are inherently > undecidable, and thus not describable by mathematics. --------------------------- The disagreement between Yosi Hoshen and Bill Peter is merely semantic, not substantive. Assume a mathematical equation which correctly models the behavior of the universe, but makes only statistical predictions. Yosi correctly states that we would have a mathematical model of the universe. Bill correctly states that such a model would not decide the result of specific experiments, and thus the universe is not completely describable by mathematics. End of discussion, I hope. If not, I suggest net.physics would be more appropriate. -- Bill Tanenbaum - AT&T Bell Labs - Naperville IL ihnp4!ihlpg!tan