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Path: utzoo!linus!philabs!cmcl2!seismo!lll-crg!gymble!speaker
From: speaker@gymble.UUCP (Speaker to Animals)
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Re: my belief
Message-ID: <232@gymble.UUCP>
Date: Sat, 10-Aug-85 14:39:28 EDT
Article-I.D.: gymble.232
Posted: Sat Aug 10 14:39:28 1985
Date-Received: Mon, 12-Aug-85 08:17:45 EDT
References: <8510@watarts.UUCP> <371@scgvaxd.UUCP>
Reply-To: speaker@gymble.UUCP (Speaker to Animals)
Organization: U of Maryland, Laboratory for Parallel Computation, C.P., MD
Lines: 76

>> In article <371@scgvaxd.UUCP> dan@scgvaxd.UUCP (PUT YOUR NAME HERE) writes:
> In article <8510@watarts.UUCP> jharman@watarts.UUCP (James Harman) writes:
>
>> The Bible teaches that all man is in rebellion against God. God will
>> not send you to Hell, you will go there by choice. When Adam sinned,
>> he seperated himself and his seed from God. We can be reconciled to God
>> through the sacrificial death of His Son in our place.

We've been through this before and like the fool that I am I feel compelled
to reply to it.  If you want to believe that mankind makes his own hell
for himself then yes I can agree with this.  Through his own choice man
creates quite a bit of suffering for himself.  But is it man's choice that
he should be physically thrown into an ever-eternal burning lake of fire?
Not at all!  Do ALL atheists actually believe that they are going to
suffer this fate?  If not... then how can they also be creating this fate
for themselves?  The answer is in that it is God... not man... who is
providing the mechanism for damnation and eternal punishment... not man.

It is man's choice perhaps to rebell... but not his choice that he die
in eternal torment.  That is a punishment exacted upon us by God and
only God.

>> It is impossible to lead a "good life" because we are self-centered.
>> The word "sin" means to "miss the mark"! It is an archery term. NO matter
>> how "good" we try to be, we will always miss the mark. That is why God
>> came down in human flesh to die in our place.

Yes... we will always miss the mark (although I hate using absolutes like
this).... BUT your jump from "man missing the mark" to "that is why God
came down in human flesh to die in our place" still fails to explain to
the atheist EXACTLY why this act in any way cleanses us of our sins.  It
really isn't an explanation at all, and because no one has yet freed themselves
of their own dogma it will continue to provide an unsatisfactory answer.

Perhaps no one really knows the true answer... only the outside superficial
history and purpose of Christ's coming.  If this is true then Christians are
doing themselves and others a disservice with lenghty diatribes labeled
"THE ANSWER TO MANKIND'S SIN" when they really are not clear on what the
truth is to begin with.

>>  [Dan]
>>  Torquemada was NOT a christian. Christian's do not execute people for
>>  their beliefs. Only people who call themself Christians but are not.
>>  The bible has plenty to say about people like that.

>> [Dan]
>> He gave the Promised Land to the Isrealites, and evicted the
>> original inhabitants.

>> The original inhabitants were evil people who sacrificed their own
>> children by fire to their pagan gods. God tried for 400 years to
>> bring these people to repentance, but they would not. God's act was to
>> served two purposes. One: Judgement upon an evil people. Two: Protect
>> the Isrealites from evil influence. This one failed because the Isrealites
>> didn't listen.

But you just said that Christians are NOT Christians if they execute
people!  I assume this pertains to Jews as well.  According to my
bible, the Isrealites commited quite a few barbarous and murderous acts
in the name of evicting the evil people from the promised land.  Does
this sound like the act of a righteous people or a righteous God?
Somehow I can't see it... no matter what the excuse or how evil the
then current tenants.

> He MURDERED EVERY first born Egyptian male, now c'mon,
> Everybody in Egypt was bad, that's like saying every German during
> world war II was a Nazi.
>
>>    It is amazing what God has to do to get some people's attention.
>>    Perhaps if they would have let the Isrealites go this would not
>>    have been necessary.

Necessary?  I don't see this rather bloody and excessive act as NECESSARY
to free the Isrealites at all.  An infinitly wise God could surely find
a bloodless means to free the his people.  Sounds to me like lip-service
once again.  We can't change history so we defend it with excuses.