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From: ted@imsvax.UUCP (Ted Holden)
Newsgroups: net.origins
Subject: catastrophic evolution - reply to Bill Jefferys
Message-ID: <365@imsvax.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 6-Aug-85 13:28:02 EDT
Article-I.D.: imsvax.365
Posted: Tue Aug  6 13:28:02 1985
Date-Received: Fri, 9-Aug-85 02:22:30 EDT
Organization: IMS Inc, Rockville MD
Lines: 283


     I  don't  normally  reply  to  responses  to my own
articles on the net; they are too many and varied  and I
don't have  the time.   In this  case it seems necessary
because someone who didn't know any better could get the
impression that  the article  had been  refuted point by
point.  Let's  examine some  of  the  highlights  of Mr.
Jefferys article.


>These    days,   debates   between   Creationists   and
>Evolutionists are regularly won by evolutionists.

     Where?  When?  I mean in a reasonably well attended
     setting ,  not  Rhetoric 101  at UT.  Like I say, I
     haven't heard about it.  My  own  training  was  in
     science (math) and  not  religion.  I wouldn't feel 
     good about publishing in  a  journal "refereed"  by
     "scientists" in the  case of the creation-evolution
     debate.  I would  prefer well attended debates with
     members of the press  present  as  was  the case in
     Roanoke. I know "scientists" a little bit too well.

>    The probability  that  any  of  Ron's  arguments is
>valid is precisely 0.  In science, it is not the number
>of arguments but their correctness that counts. 

     This one speaks for itself.  It obviously tells an
     impartial   observer  more about  the author  than 
     about the subject matter.

>Groups of humans with six fingers are known.  The trait
>breeds true.   There is  one such  group in (I believe)
>Appalachia.

     Like I  said,  these  people  are  fortunate  to be
     living in  the 20'th  century.  Being burned at the
     stake was never much fun.  But  six-fingered humans
     seems  to  have  been  the  wrong  example  to use.
     Mr. Jefferys seems to have missed the logical point
     because the  example.  Six and five-fingered humans
     could interbreed.  A  change  from  one  species to
     another with  no possability of interbreeding could
     only happen if more than  one  of  the  new species
     appeared   at   one  time  i.e. under  catastrophic
     circumstances as I described.  

>Finally,  mutation   is   probably   a   minor  (though
>important)  mechanism  in  evolution.   Duplication and
>rearrangement of genetic  material  are  thought  to be
>much more  important, and  they are experimentally well
>documented.

     Duplication  and  rearrangement  by   who  or  what
     agency?   Dr. Frankenstein?   My  understanding  is
     that when this occurs naturally, the  clinical term
     is "cancer".

>It  is  well  established  that the first people in the
>Western hemisphere were responsible  for the extinction
>of  most  of  the  large  mammals  in  North  and South
>America.  They had nothing but stone weapons, but their
>methods were extremely effective.

     I love this one!  The creatures Mr. Jefferys has in
     mind include several which I wouldn't  want to face
     with anything  less than  a 50 caliber machine gun.
     My favorite ancient animal  is  the  pteratorn, not
     really a  mammal, but  why be strict?  Mr. Jefferys
     will  sooner  or  later  have  to  account  for the
     pteratorn's extinction  as well.  The pteratorn was
     a 200 lb. golden eagle with a 30 foot wingspan.  An
     eagle's ability  to kill  things is  grossly out of
     proportion to its size.  20 Pound  Berkut eagles on
     the USSR  kill foxes  and wolves  by crushing their
     skulls  in  their  11  inch  talons  and  deers  by
     DRIVING THEIR TALONS IN AROUND THE DEER'S SPINE AND
     SNAPPING IT.  In a way, it's a shame pteratorns are
     extinct.   I   really  feel  the  guys  at  the  UT
     astronomy department deserve a  shot  at  trying to
     kill one  with their  spears.  I am morally certain
     that the pteratorn would enjoy the meal as  much as
     I would  enjoy the  (brief) spectacle.  It wouldn't
     be quite fair to  say that  the guys  from UT would
     fare  as  badly  or  worse than the Neanderthals of
     10,000 years  ago;    the  Neanderthals  would know
     better than to try it.  Since  the only  danger  to 
     the pteratorn would be indigestion, the SPCA  would
     probably not object to the event being staged.


>Really?  And  what mechanism  do you  propose to change
>the force of gravity on the earth?

     I can forgive Mr. Jefferys for this  one.  This one
     involves   a   radical   departure   from   present
     thinking.  Immanuel Velikovsky  was  aware  of this
     but  refrained  from  including  it  in  "Worlds in
     Collision, Vol  I"  specifically  because  it would
     seem  too  weird  to  most  people.   Every book on
     dinosaurs  I  have  read  mentions  the  problem of
     weight   for   these   animals;   most  state  that
     brontosaurs lived in water even though their bodies
     show  no  adaptation  for  an  aquatic life, simply
     because rudimentary calculations showed  that their
     legs would  not support  them on land.  The problem
     for large birds is more appalling.  I have actually
     seen   books   which   state  that  pterosaurs  and
     pteratorns climbed  up  mountains  and  then glided
     down again,  a hell of a hard way to have to make a
     living.  The authors  were  admitting  that  200 lb
     birds can't  fly in  our world.   The evidence from
     ancient life forms is that the force of  gravity on
     earth changed  somewhere along  the line.  I posted
     an  article  on  this  about  a  month  ago     and
     Mr. Jefferys apparently missed it.  For his sake, I
     will repeat  some of  the arguments  involved.  The 
     best recommendation I can make to someone who wants
     to understand  this  phenomenon  is  to read  David
     Talbott's "The Saturn Myth",  still  available from
     Doubleday.  The following brief  description of the
     archaic world will sound  strange;  remember, there
     was a time when cars and trains seemed strange, and
     a time when forks  seemed  strange  to the  English
     nobility.
.........................................................

     Velikovsky's long  promised  "Worlds  in Collision,
Chapter II",  dealing with the nature of the world prior
to the flood, was essentially published  in 1980  in the
form of  "The Saturn  Myth" by  David Talbott, available
from DoubleDay.  Articles on the same and similar topics
appear  regularly  in  the Kronos Journal, subscriptions
($15/year) from:

               Kronos
               P.O. Box 343
               Wynnewood, PA 19096

     The ancients believed that  Jupiter and  Saturn had
been live  stars within  the memory  of man.  Greeks and
Romans described the planetary  systems  of  Jupiter and
Saturn  as  the  dual  systems of dieties, Olympian gods
under Zeus (Jupiter), and Titans under  Kronos (Saturn).
Egyptians described the same thing as a "double Ennead",
the systems of Set and Horus.   They believed  there had
been an  ORBITING mantel of water, not clouds, high over
the world; that one hadn't needed  be but  so much  of a
prophet to know it was going to fall some day.  

     They  described  the  sky  as  the  primeval watery
abyss.  The first paragraph of Genesis refers to the sky
as a  firmamemt built  to seperate the waters above from
the waters below.  The  great  hymns  to  Osiris  in the
Egyptian  Book  of  the  Dead  refer to Osiris as having
fashioned man and the primeval watery abyss of  the sky.
Nearly  identical  language  concerning  the  sky can be
found in Snorri Sturleson's  Prose Edda,  not because of
any  early  contacts  between Skandanavia and Egypt, but
because these peoples obviously saw the  same sky. These
stories are  fragments of racial memory, bits and pieces
of a picture which  can  be  put  together  with  just a
little bit of effort.

     Prior to  the flood,  we were  a planet of Saturns.
This sounds crazy at first, but the pictures  inside the
pyramids  depict  this  repeatedly.  The idea definitely
didn't sound  crazy to  Akhnaten.  The  North pole faced
Saturn  directly,  and  we  hung perilously close to the
small star.   The gravitational  interaction between the
star and  planet was intense;  particals and debris were
trapped in between permanently and picked up the glow of
the  star,  resembling  a great mountain rising straight
from the North Pole to the star, the myth of  the god on
the  mountain,  Zeus  on  Olympus,  Jahveh  on Zion etc.
Creatures living in the  gravitational tug  of war which <------
existed then got big, 200 pound birds which couldn't fly
today, Brontosaurs and  Ultrasaurs  which  couldn't even
walk today,  even in  water since  their feet, having no
adaptation for water, would sink hopelessly into the mud
on river bottoms.   You haven't heard of the  ultrasaur,
you say?   The  people  at  Penn  State  apparently have
acquired  him  rather  recently.   He  could  swallow  a
brontosaur.  The brontosaur's problem  with weight would
have seemed minor compared to his.


     Why couldn't  a 200 lb. bird fly?  When animals get
bigger, their weight goes up in proportion to  volumn, a
cubed figure.   Strength only  goes up  in proportion to
cross sections of bones  and muscles,  a squared figure;
that is  why you  never see 200 lb. gymnists even though
you do see splendid athletes over  200 lbs,  they simply
don't  have  the  power-to-weight  ratio.   Every  other
measure of the bodies  efficiency goes  up in proportion
to other  squared figures:  your ability to breathe goes
up in proportion  to  surface  area  of  lungs,  to cool
yourself in  portion to total body surface area, and, of
course, surface area of  wings is  vital to  birds.  The
largest birds  which fly  in OUR world hang in around 12
to  25  pounds  and  all  have  major  difficulties with
takeoffs and  landings, the worst case being albatrosses
which sailors call goonie-birds for that reason.

     The heiroglyphs for Ra, Atum, Osiris etc., names at
various  time  periods  for  the elder god of Egypt, are
basically  just  pictures  of  a  star  inside  a  ring,
pictures  of  Saturn.   Usually  the ringed star sits on
either a pyramid shaped mound or, as in the case  of the
loop at  the top  of the  ankh symbol, atop the Egyptian
symbol  for  a  pillar   or   structural   support.   In
E. A. Wallis Budge's  The Book of the Dead (1895), Dover
paperback version available  cheaply,  several different
versions of  these pictures  can be seen.  One symbol is
nearly exactly what I have  described,  a  dot  inside a
circle supported by three lightning forks in the form of
a  triangle  which  appears  in  any  word  meaning  "to
brighten" or "illuminate".  

     The glyph  for Ra takes the form of a humanized god
sitting on his haunches and either a dot inside a circle
or a  hoop snake  with a  dot inside the coil.  The word
Khut (mound of glory) is a circle atop a mound.   A five
point star  inside a circle appears on page 10, the word
tuat.  Often these pictures  take  the  form  of  a star
inside a  half-circle or  crescent, all  atop a pyramid,
indicating that Saturn's ring  showed phases,  since the
crescent is variously to one or the other side, or above
or below the star.  The term "paut neteru" (substance of
the gods)  recurs in the book;  it is pictured as a ring
with one side widened,  the  other  side  narrowed  to a
point.  The Moslem symbol of a star inside a crescent is
basically this picture, not a picture of the  sun inside
a crescent moon (which no one has ever seen).


     Hesiod,  in  "Works  and  Days"  and  Ovid, in "The
Metamorphoses" use identical  language  in  describing a
"Golden  Age  of  Man"  when Kronos (Saturn) was king of
heaven (the sun).  The ancient world was of  one mind in
believing that  age to  have been  a far better one than
theirs.  However, that age  came  crashing  down  with a
stellar blowout  INSIDE our solar system followed, seven
days later, by the Noachian deluge.  

     Twice in Genesis in the story of Noah  (Genesis 7-4
and  7-10)  the  seven  days  prior  to  the  flood  are
mentioned.  The  only other  reference to  these days in
the old  testament occurs  in Isiah  30:26 "Moreover the
light of the moon shall be as the light of  the sun, and
the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of
the seven days...".  This  was the  basis for  the seven
day light  festivals of the ancient world, Hannukah, the
Roman Saturnalia etc.  

The solar system  was  a  long  time  settling  into its
present  state  after  the  flood.  Part of the story of
these times is told in Velikovsky's  major book, "Worlds
in Collision"  which is worth reading.  Saturn was still
visible for a long time afterwards and was worshipped as
Osiris,  god   of  the   dead,  by  the  Egyptians,  the
prototypical ressurection  story.  Lest  anyone have any
doubts  that  these  Egyptians  saw a different sky than
ours, the following are  direct quotes  from the various
hymns  to  Osiris  in  the  Dover  paperback  version of
Budge's "Egyptian Book of the Dead":

page 250  "..thou risest, coming forth from the  god Nu.
          Thou  hast  come  with  thy splendors and thou
          hast made heaven  and  earth  bright  with thy
          rays of PURE EMERALD LIGHT"

page 251  "...thou dost  arise in  the horizen of heaven
          and  shed  upon  the  world  beams  of emerald
          light;..."

page 254  "..Through thee  the world waxeth green before
          the might of Neb-er  tcher.... Thy body  is of
          gold,  thy  head  of  azure, and emerald light
          encircleth thee.."

     The pictures of Osiris in human form on the pyramid
walls were, of course, green.