Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84 exptools; site ihu1m.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!philabs!cmcl2!seismo!lll-crg!dual!qantel!ihnp4!ihu1m!jho From: jho@ihu1m.UUCP (Yosi Hoshen) Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish Subject: Re: Rosen, "bug off"! Message-ID: <616@ihu1m.UUCP> Date: Fri, 9-Aug-85 19:36:23 EDT Article-I.D.: ihu1m.616 Posted: Fri Aug 9 19:36:23 1985 Date-Received: Tue, 13-Aug-85 02:34:33 EDT References: <164@vilya.UUCP> <658@cvl.UUCP><39@unc.UUCP> <604@ihu1m.UUCP> <252@sesame.UUCP> Distribution: net Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories Lines: 59 > Yosi Hoshen writes: > > > As a general rule, I would agree to the preposition that there is no > > point in attacking religious beliefs. However, when the religion is > > applied to those who do not accept its premise, it is then becomes > > open to attack. Since the orthodox aim is to impose their religion > > on non-orthodox Jews, it is only resonable that those of us who > > object to coercion would point out its flaws and shortcomings. > > I don't know where you get the impression that "the orthodox aim is to > impose their religion on non-orthodox...", but it is far from > truth. Orthodox Jews fall into on of a few chatagories (pardon me > for generalizing, while there are exceptions, I want to keep this short): > >[Simcha-Yitzchak Lerner] There are orthodox Jews who don't want to impose their religion on other Jews, but they seem to be the silent minority. In the United States the opportunity to impose Jewish religious laws does not exist. However, in Israel this opportunity exists, and the result is religious coercion. Regretfully, there are few orthodox Jews in Israel or in the US who oppose this coercion. Let me give you examples from my previous posting: If one looks at the record of the religionists in Israel, one can observe a relentless effort of the orthodox to impose the religious law on the secular Jewish society. Examples of these efforts are: the imposition of the marital laws, the law to prevent the sale of pork and the the attempts to shut down movies on Friday evening. The former minister of religious affairs Dr. Zerach Varhaftig spelled out the religionist program of religious coercion in 1962. He said: ` According to the [Jewish] religious concept, every Jew is a religious Jew, the fact that he is a Jew makes him religious...' He then continues: `Every Jew has a Jewish spot, but his desires overpowers his mind. If the law comes and restricts his freedom to yield to his [negative] desires, his positive feelings will be awakened, and it will begin with coercion and end with a want.' ( t'chilato b'ones v'sofo b'ratzon) These quotes are taken from a special supplement to the Ha'aretz newspaper provided by the ministry of religious affairs in February, 1962. > Being relatively new to the net, I don't know what is bringing on this > accusation, but I do feel that it is an extream exagaration. Are the facts that I cannot eat pork in Israel, or that I am coerced to be married by a rabi, or that the religionists are trying to shut down the entertainment for secular Jews on Saturday, are cases of extreme exagaration of the religious coercion situation in Israel? -- Yosi Hoshen, AT&T Bell Laboratories Naperville, Illinois, Mail: ihnp4!ihu1m!jho