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From: sunny@sun.uucp (Ms. Sunny Kirsten)
Newsgroups: net.women
Subject: Re: men dominate net.women (flame-ish)
Message-ID: <2674@sun.uucp>
Date: Mon, 19-Aug-85 20:38:05 EDT
Article-I.D.: sun.2674
Posted: Mon Aug 19 20:38:05 1985
Date-Received: Fri, 23-Aug-85 06:33:12 EDT
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> Andy Cohill (A male of the species)
> Out of one side of your mouth you waiving the flag for equal
> treatment, freedom to compete with men, more power for women, etc.,
> and out of the other side you seem to be saying that you women just
> don't have what it takes to "dominate" this forum, so we men should
> "let" you dominate it.
> 
> If you want power, you have to make it. Yourself. Or in concert with
> other people who feel the way you do. You do *not* get it by asking
> others to give it to you, which is what you are suggesting here. If
> you have to ask for it, you don't deserve it. 
> 
> The only reason net.women is not dominated by women is because the
> women don't post articles--you admit this yourself. If you want to
> change the topic to breast cancer, don't ask the men to do it for
> you, do it yourself. Get all the women that you know to post an
> article about it along with you. 
> 
> Karla, I am never going to step aside and let someone have what I
> have worked for, *just* because they are female, or black, or have
> six toes. You will have to prove that you are equal to me on a 
> level playing field. Affirmative action is a sad excuse for
> equality; it merely makes discrimination legal. And note that I
> support fully whatever it takes to create a level playing field, for
> both of us! But affirmative action is not it, and I think you
> already have equal opportunity on the net.

Thank you, Andy, for providing the example I need to make a point:

Power is the domain of men.
Power is the ability to dominate, via physical force or via buying power.
Power is seldom used constructively, cooperatively, or for nurturing.

The entire net is dominated by men struggling for power.  The one area
where women *might* have had a chance to talk together, net.women, has
from its inception been dominated by men.  Not the kind of numerical
domination appropriate to equal opportunity... that of there being more
articles in the newsgroup submitted by men because there are more men
than women on the net.  Rather, it is the kind of domination reflective
of the male domain.. that of domination by most successful contention.
or, to use *YOUR* words:

"You will have to prove that you are equal to me on a level playing field"

You see, Andy... in this forum, women don't want to prove anything.  We
don't want to *have* to prove anything.  And everytime men enter the
forum, it becomes a game of domination, rightness, superiority, power.
And that is why there are so few women posting in this forum.  Because
the kind of communication which is cooperative and sharing, the kind
which comes naturally to women, is impossible whenever the men join in
too.

As for the quantity of articles, I think you'll find that the following is
true:
	Women DO submit most of the articles.
	Men      submit most of the rebuttals.
	and they submit most of the rebuttals to rebuttals, and all the
	contentious stuff that women don't really want to deal with here.

And that is why, after net.women failed for this reason, that
net.women.only was created.. to keep the men from "dominating" the
converstaion... from changing the nature of the conversation from
sharing to contention.  And when men again refused to respect the
charter of the newsgroup known as net.women.only... read by all, posted
to only by women... the women of the net gave up and left the net.
That is why there is a successful moderated mailing list being operated
whose main focus is feminist issues.  Approximately half of the mailing
list is composed of males.  They happen to be the warm nurturing
cooperative sensitive kind of males who don't dominate the discussion,
and become angry and contentious.  I love this kind of male.  It's the
macho assholes like you who have to turn everything into warfare or
games of dominace that I can't deal with, and who are destroying this
planet.

Once again, I'd like to point out that humankind is losing the battle
of life.  Mankind is becoming more violent and more hostile and more
warlike all the time.  Soon we will have nuclear winter.  Because so
many people are filled with hatred and the need to compete and dominate
and have power over other people.  And most of these people are men.
Ones with an overdose of testosterone.

POWER over other humans serves no constructive ends.
only COOPERATION can be constructive.

HATRED, ANGER, DOMINANCE will destroy this planet.
LOVE, CARING, NUTURING, SHARING, and LETTING GO of POWER
are the only pathways which will support or enhance life.

It's not that I hate men, or that there's something wrong with the male sex.
It's dominant and powerhungry individuals who are the problem... (Andy)
It's the males with an overdose of agression producing testosterone,
who are causing the biggest of problems in the world.

			Sunny
-- 
{ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!sun!sunny (Ms. Sunny Kirsten)