Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site timeinc.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxt!houxm!vax135!timeinc!greenber From: greenber@timeinc.UUCP (Ross M. Greenberg) Newsgroups: net.women Subject: Re: men dominate net.women (flame-ish) Message-ID: <460@timeinc.UUCP> Date: Fri, 23-Aug-85 22:17:47 EDT Article-I.D.: timeinc.460 Posted: Fri Aug 23 22:17:47 1985 Date-Received: Sun, 25-Aug-85 00:12:33 EDT References: <175@drutx.UUCP> <231@whuts.UUCP> <2674@sun.uucp> <448@timeinc.UUCP> <5626@tektronix.UUCP> Reply-To: greenber@timeinc.UUCP (Ross M. Greenberg) Organization: Time Inc. (Edit Tech), New York Lines: 129 Summary: Moiram@tektronix.UUCP (Moira Mallison ) writes: > >Ross, of course, needs no provocation to attack Sunny. Any (every?) >article is provocation enough. > Nope. Only those that seem to generalize, that seem to be sexist, that say that everything that I am is wrong, and that everything that I am not is good. Lemme see....I'll examine Sunny's articles.....yep.....seems like each one fits the mold. Take anyone of Sunny's articles. Use your global replace and replace every "man" with "women", etc. Now read the little gem. Does it get you angry? Does it seem to over-generalize? Does it seem sexist? If *I* were to post some of her stuff, I'd get lambasted all the way to net.wobegon. Yet it seems that if a woman decides to attack men as a class, then it is okay. Oh, I forgot: this is a *women's* newsgroup: >> Besides, are you >> asking for any special privs due to women because they are women? > >What we asked for was a newsgroup where we could discuss what *we* >wanted to discuss without certain men twisting the discussions to >fit their interests, because our interests were too petty. A newsgroup >where we could express ourselves without being blasted to kingdom >come by the flames, without being told that our ideas are worthless. >But Sunny said all that and you didn't listen to her, so why would >you listen to me. > Well, I'm not all that unreasonable. You've posted some pretty thought provoking articles, you seem to be open minded, you can flame with the best of them, you have an exquisite Color Sense....so I can listen to you. I'm open minded, too, although I must admit that some of my more bone-headed pieces don't seem to show it. That still doesn't get around the idea that *you* are asking for special privs due to your genitalia: you want a place where you sit around and discuss things without the aweful interference of men. Well, the world is full of men. Doesn't it seem a little silly to insist upon equality, as long as you get a little special treatment. As I've said before and I'm forced to say again: "If you demand special treatment, due to your sex, then you may get special treatment due to your sex. It may not, however, be the special treatment you had in mind. But it will be just as sexist as what you demand. Just not always to your benefit." >What we asked for was the courtesy to allow us our space on the net. >But because of a few men like you, Ross, who would rather open our >doors (in the name of courtesy) than give us our space, we have >retreated to the mailing list. Because only in an atmosphere where >we could control submissions have we been able to avoid the domination >of power-mongering males. Whoops! Next thing you know, I'll be a "macho-asshole". Some already consider me one or the other, but not both. Oh, well. So when you sense something blatantly wrong posted to the net, and you decide to stand up and yell "HEY! That's bogus", then that makes you a power-mongering woman? Nah....as Sunny will tell you, only men are power-mongering. So what does it make you when you see something blatantly wrong posted on the net that makes you sit up and yell? Righteous? Holier-than-me? What kind of mood does it make you feel if some asshole on the net says "All women suffer from PMS!" (Nobody *I* know), or "Women are inferior to men!"? Probably makes you want to flame the asshole, as my mailbox is witness to. So how come it is wrong for me flame a sexist asshole myself? Oh.....this is net.women. The place where admitting to holding a door open for women is like admitting to a crime against Nature Herself. > >net.women.only did not collapse under its own contradictions! It >was flat-out abandoned because it didn't work. I did not see one >vote for net.women.only in the recent poll prior to its demise. >Where do you think all of those women went? Into the woodwork? > No. Into their own mailing list, where the nasty world won't bite. The reason that net.women.only didn't work (in my opinion) was that it was a public admission of women seeking special privs. So it wasn't posted to very frequently. So the mailing list was built. >I'm not sure where you get off calling net.women.only a special >privilege. It seems any time we want something for ourselves >you deem it a special privilege, and I guess that's the problem. >Equality is not a special privilege, dammit. IT IS OUR RIGHT. > Read the above for yourself. When there is a net.men, and a net.men.only, then it will be equality. Until then --- watch your contradictions. Utilizing the net as anyone else does is your right. Asking me to step down, based on my sex, from whatever position I hold is not your right. It is just sexist. >I never heard any votes about net.men.only. I can't imagine that >the women arguing for our space in net.women.only would have denied >the space for a net.men.only. There is a mens mailing list and I >haven't heard any women denigrating that. > Well, some have said there is no need for net.men.* because the whole net is overrun by men. I disagree --- we just don't seek any special treatment due to our sex. The mens' mailing list just got reborn, so I don't know how long it will last. >(just a hint, Ross. What you represent to me is quickly changing :-) > Hmmmmm. What am I to make of that? I dunno...what did I represent before? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Ross M. Greenberg @ Time Inc, New York --------->{vax135 | ihnp4}!timeinc!greenber<--------- I highly doubt that Time Inc. would make me their spokesperson. --- "You must never run from something immortal. It attracts their attention." -- The Last Unicorn