Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site dciem.UUCP Path: utzoo!dciem!mmt From: mmt@dciem.UUCP (Martin Taylor) Newsgroups: net.politics.theory Subject: Re: Newsflash! [Subsidized Education] Message-ID: <1660@dciem.UUCP> Date: Sun, 18-Aug-85 16:03:05 EDT Article-I.D.: dciem.1660 Posted: Sun Aug 18 16:03:05 1985 Date-Received: Sun, 18-Aug-85 20:19:13 EDT References: <955@umcp-cs.UUCP> <1110@umcp-cs.UUCP> <1680@psuvax1.UUCP> <292@ubvax.UUCP>Reply-To: mmt@dciem.UUCP (Martin Taylor) Distribution: na Organization: D.C.I.E.M., Toronto, Canada Lines: 53 Summary: >>I agree with Piotr. I'd rather believe in people than believe in >>libertaria anytime. >>Tony Wuersch > >You don't believe in people. You believe in the dehumanizing State. >You believe in feeding people like animals in cages. You believe in >denying them the economic rights they need to care for their own >physical needs; and denying them the responsibilities to themselves >and others, that they must have to develop into complete moral >human beings. I believe in trading; you believe in stealing. >I believe in cooperation; you believe in force. I believe in >voluntarism; you believe in conscription. I believe in freedom; >you believe in slavery. > >--JoSH An extraordinary response to a compassionate and reasoned article! Without (this time) commenting on libertarian theory or rationality, I would like to make a sociological observation. The USA, generally speaking, is probably the country that most strongly advocates freedom of economic choice. It also seems to be the country that breeds people who fanatically distrust state activities. In Europe, the state is more deeply involved in welfare and other activities that might be called "control". Workers frequently have part-ownership in the places where they work, and their representatives are on the Boards of Directors. People there, do NOT seem to want to move to a more libertarian condition. Is this because they are brainwashed and cannot see where their own interests lie (No, of course not: Libertarians deny this possibility), or is it because their situation is preferable to the more laissez-faire conditions here? Perhaps ease of cooperation, based on social and governmental structures, outweighs the *feeling* of freedom that would be available to a few people in a Libertaria. To parallel JoSH's peroration: >I do believe in people. I believe in the humanizing State. >I believe in feeding people rather than letting them starve. I believe in >allowing them the economic rights they need to care for their own >physical needs; and allowing them the responsibilities to themselves >and others, that they must have to develop into complete moral >human beings. I believe in trading; no-one believes in stealing. >I believe in cooperation; I believe that force must sometimes be used. I believe in >voluntarism; I believe we owe something to each other. I believe in freedom; >I believe in enslaving machines, not people. I believe that JoSH's Libertaria would lead directly to all the things he claims not to believe in. -- Martin Taylor {allegra,linus,ihnp4,floyd,ubc-vision}!utzoo!dciem!mmt {uw-beaver,qucis,watmath}!utcsri!dciem!mmt