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Path: utzoo!linus!philabs!prls!amdimage!amdcad!decwrl!sun!sunny
From: sunny@sun.uucp (Ms. Sunny Kirsten)
Newsgroups: net.women
Subject: Re: PMS, transexuals, and testosterone poisoning
Message-ID: <2646@sun.uucp>
Date: Thu, 15-Aug-85 19:20:40 EDT
Article-I.D.: sun.2646
Posted: Thu Aug 15 19:20:40 1985
Date-Received: Mon, 19-Aug-85 21:12:51 EDT
Distribution: net
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Lines: 102

> WHOA.  Hang on.  (mumble mumble)  Now look here.  Sunny, I haven't been in
> on this discussion before, but I've seen Phil's postings and he Doesn't
> seem to be a rabid asshole type.  I MAY be wrong, but I don't think that
> his observation was in any way personally degrading.  

never claimed he was.  In fact, as I have already explained to phil and others
in private mail, my response was not so much aimed at Phil, even though the
way I submitted my article was via followup to his, but in response to a
series of articles which preceeded and included his which all in one way
or another attempted to disprove there being any validity in my observations,
when, I can't see how anyone but myself or another who HAS experienced both
male and female hormones, can validly comment on the differences between
men and women which are hormonally based.
> 
> I'm writing this because a previous posting somewhere in the net referred
> to the stupendous amount of hostility that the poster perceived among
> network postings.  As one who has, er, been known send off postings in a
> half-cocked manner (albeit Snide postings, not hostile.  Honest.), I just 
> want to say this:  Sunny, don't feel persecuted.  NOT everyone is rejecting you.

Oh, no.  Persecuted?  Not at all.  Persecution is an active phenomena.
What I feel is rejected and ignored, invalidated, nonexistant, nonperson.
personna non grata.  I've seen too many articles here rejecting both my
ability to make observations about men, my ability to make observations
about women, and my ability to make observations unclouded by subjective
factors, to believe that my viewpoint can be accepted as objective.  AFter
all, I'm not a man, I'm not a woman, I'm not a person.  I'm invalid.  I
can't observe objectively.  If anyone can propose just who or how to better
observe the effects of hormones than by being under their influence, and
how better to objectively report on their differences, other than to
experience them first hand, I'd be glad to listen.  And, I'm happy to report,
(no, happy is NOT the right word), that there are no fewer than an even
half dozen people who are, were, or will be involved in the trans-gender
phenomena in some way or other such that we could easily classify them as
{potential,current,past} transsexuals, other than myself, who have USENET
addresses, and who will not come forth in this hostile forum (most of them
in ANY forum) simply because they know from experience the level of
persecution they will/have experience(d), and which they do not wish to be
subjected to.  I, myself, shall never again be so foolish as to try to
speak from my unique experience, simply because, to let it be known to
a public audience that one is or was a transsexual, is to invite total
invalidation as a human being.  Not that there aren't a signifigant number
of people who have privately supported me, but because there are so 
overwhelmingly many hostile, hateful, rejecting, closedminded, xenophobic
individuals that it is simply not practical in our "modern" "civilized"
society to present oneself as other than belonging to one or the other
of the two accepted possible stereotypes:  "masculine man" or "feminine woman".
I have learned my lesson the hard way.  I don't want to have to change my
name (again) in order to leave this behind me, after so foolishly having
exposed myself worldwide on USENET, but I have been thinking about it.
It has certainly NOT been worthwhile just to make some comments about
hormonal effects.  Mentioning I'd experienced both to support my validity
of observation backfired.  Being a transsexual IS invalid.  So you will
not be suprised to find my disappearing totally.  I shall never again
represent myself as other than the female I am becoming.  Bye y'all...

> Jeeez.  Why, 'though I lost interest in the PMS debate sevel weeks ago, I
> think that you've made several pertinent -- not to mention legible points.
> Which is more than I can say for many others.  Chin up.
> 
> And don't bother flaming me, anyone, Densa or not.  I'm leaving the country.
> 
> Catherine Mikkelsen
> decwrl!greipa!tommif!cat

*** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE ***
> > >Phil Ngai seems to have once written: 
> 
> > > Another interesting point in this discussion of testosterone poisoning
> > > is that Sunny is admittedly a pre-operative transexual and therefore still
> > > feels the effects of testosterone. Perhaps Sunny feels the effects of orally
> > > administered estrogen as well but it is curious for me to understand
> > > how someone still feeling the effects of testosterone can claim to know
> > > what its absence feels like.
> 
> 
> And:  In article <2614@sun.uucp>, sunny@sun.uucp (Ms. Sunny Kirsten) writes:
> > 
> > Sometimes, I just can't believe the hostility and rejection of me, both on a
> > human level, and as a valid data point.  I seriously doubt any of the other
> > transsexuals on the net who could substantiate or further enlighten on my
> > observations of the effects of hormones will be willing to do so.  Because
> > y'all are just too damned closed minded to listen, or to treat us as valid
> > humans.  i.e. it just isn't worth the personal sacrifice to try to get a
> > valid viewpoint heard and known.
> > 
> > So just go on rationalizing away everything I have to say.  After all...
> > I'm so messed up I couldn't possibly have anything valid to say.
> > Not when it threatens your preconceived notions, your closed minds, your
> > sexual and genderal roles, and your total lack of ability to validly refute
> > anything I have to say........  
> 
> > Just keep on rejecting me.  Just keep on rejecting what I've said about the
> > effects of hormones.  Just keep on saying to the world:
> > Don't bother me with the facts, My mind is made up.
> > I will go a way. I will shut up.  Because it is futile to cast pearls of
> > wisdom before swine.
> > 
> > 				Sunny
> 
-- 
{ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4}!sun!sunny (Ms. Sunny Kirsten)