Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/5/84; site cadovax.UUCP
Path: utzoo!linus!philabs!cmcl2!seismo!lll-crg!dual!qantel!hplabs!sdcrdcf!trwrb!trwrba!cadovax!keithd
From: keithd@cadovax.UUCP (Keith Doyle)
Newsgroups: net.abortion
Subject: Re: Fetuses, Rights, & Responsibilities
Message-ID: <770@cadovax.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 8-Aug-85 15:12:50 EDT
Article-I.D.: cadovax.770
Posted: Thu Aug  8 15:12:50 1985
Date-Received: Tue, 13-Aug-85 02:29:26 EDT
References: <14936@mgwess.UUCP>
Organization: CONTEL CADO Systems, Torrance, CA
Lines: 60

> 
> 	All these arguments about a fetus not being 'alive', not a
> member of the species, etc., seem to be going against current biological
> knowledge concerning the life cycle of our species. The above is my

I think the problem we are experiencing here, is that there *may* be
varying definitions of the term 'alive'.  I would think no one would
argue that the cells making up a fetus are *alive*.  I think the issue
here, is whether or not the entire fetus is *independently* alive
(independent of the mother).  I would think that the *aliveness* of
an amoeba, a wart, an arm, a plant, a monkey, or a human being (after
*birth* of course) might vary somewhat.  If you decide to have your
leg amputated (for good reason I hope) are you *killing* something?
If so, what?  I would think that some other factor, or some means
of determining relative *aliveness* is required here.  Perhaps
sentience is involved, or experience, or???  I don't attempt to
make a case either way on this one, but I do think that there's more
to it than a black/white alive/not-alive type of argument.

Note: I am not attempting to address whether or not the 
aliveness argument is even valid, just that it is not so
cut and dried.

> human race. Arguments could be made on whether or not a fetus is a
> member of a society and is entitled to the priviledges of that society.

This brings up another point.  At present in our society, persons
before the age of 18 are not entitled to full priviledges.  Perhaps
a case could be made that at an earlier age even fewer priviledges
are granted.  Perhaps that is exactly what we have (though not expressed
in so many words) with the present abortion laws.

> birth control. The best I can do is encourage a sense of respect for
> the life of the fetus and a sense of responsibility for one's own
> actions. The two are not mutually exclusive.
> 
> 	Pete Wilson

With this, I certainly agree.

In addition, I am inclined to agree with a previous posters statment
that women should make the decision.  I would prefer though that each
woman make the decision for her, rather than women in general making
the decision for women in general (I think they should maintain individual
choice).

I think that Pete's comment about encouraging a sense of respect for the
fetus etc. is the best way to minimize abortions.  If the pro-life
community spent more time concentrating on this point, and less time
sensationalizing the issue to the point of losing much of the credibility
they have, I think we would finally be making progress.

> P.S. Was I equivocal enough? Did I cover my ass well enough and still
>      manage to say something of importance?

I thought you did ok, (probably better than I did)

Keith Doyle
#  {ucbvax,ihnp4,decvax}!trwrb!cadovax!keithd