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Path: utzoo!linus!philabs!jah
From: jah@philabs.UUCP (Julie Harazduk)
Newsgroups: net.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Re: Is General Goodness just a moral principle?
Message-ID: <402@philabs.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 6-Aug-85 14:29:11 EDT
Article-I.D.: philabs.402
Posted: Tue Aug  6 14:29:11 1985
Date-Received: Wed, 7-Aug-85 04:10:18 EDT
References: <852@umcp-cs.UUCP> <360@utastro.UUCP> <879@umcp-cs.UUCP>, <1235@pyuxd.UUCP> <2134@pucc-h> <2147@pucc-h> <1321@pyuxd.UUCP>
Organization: Philips Labs, Briarcliff Manor, NY
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> 
> It is also supported by archaeology, paleontology, cosmology, ...  Not an
> assumption, no, it is the converse (that it DID [yes, it DID, DID, DID and
> DID!] ), that a creator deliberately caused it to exist, that is the
> assumption. [RR]
 
Archeology winds up supporting Biblical accounts.  Cosmology doesn't pose
too many definite answers as to the origins of things (from nothing...BANG...
dream on!!!!)
 
> 
> >Actually it's the other way around:  The Bible opposes certain things because
> >they are not what anyone really wants, what are in anyone's best interests.
> [SARGENT] 

> Funny, there are plenty of people I know (myself included) that really and
> truly want to do things that this book considers wrong, and we have yet to
> see any reason for labelling these things as wrong (they don't harm other
> people or themselves).  Are you SURE it's the "other" way around??

Maybe you haven't gotten hurt yet, but I tend to doubt that.  Everybody gets
hurt, eventually, from intimate relationships that don't last.  And often
the things that hurt are actually done to us so that we will hurt.  If you
haven't been hurt, then maybe you've been doing all the lashing out.  At
some point it always comes down to the same thing.  Relationships end and
people get hurt.  Marriage, on the other hand, when done with the right
reasons with the right two people, should not end..until death do you
part.  Chew on that for a while.  

The sexual life style is not all as glamorous as you make it out to be.
Those things you say you want to do are filling some emptiness (need)
inside of you.  God fills it too, if you let Him.  And without the hurt
that numerous intimate relationships wind up inflicting on everybody
involved.  And if not the mental anguish...what about the physical diseases
going around.  Fool around with the wrong person these days and you may not
be around to tell the story a couple of years from now or so.

> 
> >>Oh?  Care to elaborate on why?  Seriously, beyond the words of a book, what
> >>makes it WRONG?  In what way is sex (outside marriage or even outside
> >>"conventional" norms!!!) hurting oneself?  PLEASE elaborate!!!!!

Sex is not the thing that hurts.  It's the relationship that does.  Sex creates
an intimacy that is an illusion when there is no love between two people.  And
if there is love, true love...why not marriage.  The only way sex can hurt
is physically...by disease, partners being inconsiderate (why bother if it's
only tonight), force, unwanted pregnancy.  Mentally, it's not the sex that
hurts but the mirrage it creates.

> 
> Sure add in enough guilt ("this is WRONG!  this is WRONG!  this is...") and
> it's sure to be painful. 

I never felt a guilty moment in bed, but I got hurt.  Expectations are built
on the intimacy that sex creates.  If both people don't live up to those
expectations, someone will get hurt.  And it's usually pretty messy.  Most
people don't remain friends (socially) after sharing an intimate relationship.

> Working from assumptions again.  Since you have no
> experience with such "solemn trust" in the context you mention, you are in
> no position to judge.  I'm sure many married Christians might support Jeff's
> view, but the fact that others may not, and that married and unmarried non-
> Christians can offer a completely different perspective shows that the
> blanket classification that this is ONLY right in marriage is bogus. [RR]

If your not Christian, nobody's telling you to change your way of life.  If
you become Christian, it's just a matter of time before you will, with God's
help.
 
> >>Loved and accepted by what?  Feeling that way may make you feel better,
> >>but if you're talking about love and acceptance from some mythical deity
> >>your basis may be flawed, and that's no foundation worth standing on.
> >>Human beings don't love and accept unconditionally, they offer such things
> >>in response to good actions and a feeling of companionship stemming from
> >>those actions.  To want this "unconditional love and acceptance" you've often
> >>spoken of (from a deity) strikes me as a wish to fulfill that need without
> >>interacting with humans to get it.  You may live on the illusion, but the
> >>real thing is out here amongst us people. [RR]

Usually, parents (good parents that is) exhibit this king of love for a child.
Eventually, their patience runs thin sometimes.  God's patience is forever,
He's just waiting for us to ask for help, and He's there to help.  My mom
and dad have often had to have this same attitude.

Jesus loves you! (even if you don't care)

Julie Harazduk