Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/5/84; site psuvax1.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!bonnie!akgua!whuxlm!harpo!decvax!genrad!panda!talcott!harvard!seismo!rochester!cmu-cs-pt!cadre!psuvax1!berman From: berman@psuvax1.UUCP (Piotr Berman) Newsgroups: net.politics Subject: Re: America-bashing (use of atomic bomb) Message-ID: <1693@psuvax1.UUCP> Date: Wed, 21-Aug-85 17:41:27 EDT Article-I.D.: psuvax1.1693 Posted: Wed Aug 21 17:41:27 1985 Date-Received: Sat, 24-Aug-85 23:58:14 EDT References: <3268@drutx.UUCP> <10615@rochester.UUCP> <1733@mnetor.UUCP> <2326@watcgl.UUCP Organization: Pennsylvania State Univ. Lines: 69 > In article <1679@psuvax1.UUCP> berman@psuvax1.UUCP (Piotr Berman) writes: > > > > > > Tony ignores three facts. > > > 1. Pearl Harbor was not a Japanese port bombed by Americans. > > > 2. World War was a TOTAL war, which means (for sure in Japanese case) > > > that the ENTIRE countries were at war, not just an easy to isolate > > > groups of soldiers. Bombing cities was a method to diminish the > > > supply of enemy's war material. The noncombat population was > > > predominantly working for the war machine. > > > But they had effectively already been beaten when the first bomb > > was dropped and had been beaten for sure afterwards so why Nagasaki? > > > > > 3. Japanese leaders were promising to figth to the bitter (possibly > > > very bitter) end. The suicidal tactics of Japanese made this > > > promise credible. Now, change scale of the human destruction > > > from Iwo Jima and Okinawa to main islands of Japan. > > > > I think it might have been worth while to try a demonstration on > > an uninhabited area first. Sure, the chances may have been small of > > getting a surrender on that basis, but the other option would have > > still been open. > > The atom bomb was a whole new way to wage war. It would have been > > better to show the Japanese what they would be up against. Then, if > > they still wanted to continue, OK, what could you do? > > It is true that the numbers of people killed were probably fewer > > than if the war had dragged on, but it is possible that even these > > people need not have been killed. > > > I too think a demonstration would have been worth trying. I watched > documentary the other night where I learned two (at least) new bits > information. > apparently the US joint chiefs estimated US deaths at 50,000 if > the war was fought to a close with conventional weapons. Depending > on who you are saving 50,000 american lives in return for killing > 200,000 japanese lives might seem like a good trade but it is not > true that more lives would have been lost without the bomb. > targeting strategy for the bomb was begun two years before it was > actually dropped. Originally they weren't sure the bomb would work > and so wanted to drop it on a japanese naval harbour so that if > it failed the japanese would have a much harder time recovering it. > It was only after they were confident the bomb would work that > the target was switched to a civilian city. > > John Chapman > ...!watmath!watcgl!jchapman War arithmetic is a difficult bussiness. 1. John quotes US staff estimate that 50,000 Americans would be dead. However, the estimate of Japanese deaths was not there. Taking previous battles as the analogy, there would be many times more of those: Americans were by far superior in fire power, Japanese were usually killed in artillery barrages and aerial bombings. For sure, more than 200,000 casualties should be expected. 2. The fact that estimate of Japanese casualtes was not quoted, reflects the style of thinking of the time of war. THEY DID NOT MATTER that much. The cruelty of war took their toll also in the mind of American generals. It is good that ours is more compassionate time, but we should also understand the minds of people during the war. 3. My point is that humanity inevitably erodes during a war, and we should not judge the participants as easily as we sometimes do. However, this is yet another reason to avoid any military confrontation between the powers, be it "limited" or "conventional". Once the spiral of death and revenge, or "loosing human effectives and destroing manpower" is started, no one knows where it would stop. Piotr Berman