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From: rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Rich Rosen)
Newsgroups: net.philosophy
Subject: Re: OK, that's enough.
Message-ID: <1528@pyuxd.UUCP>
Date: Sat, 17-Aug-85 08:35:13 EDT
Article-I.D.: pyuxd.1528
Posted: Sat Aug 17 08:35:13 1985
Date-Received: Fri, 23-Aug-85 07:07:49 EDT
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Organization: Whatever we're calling ourselves this week
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> 	Well, Rich, I guess you *CAN* argue your way out of a paper bag.
> 
> However, I'm afraid I'm not interested in discovering you intellectual
> superiority. You can argue and assure yourself that none of what we
> have been trying to tell you for months exists, and you can feel
> confident in your own mind that you understand and can describe
> objective reality, but from what I can see, you have learned nothing.

Maybe I have a good reason for not being convinced:  maybe your arguments
just aren't that good.  Or maybe mine aren't.  But if *that's* true, why
has this discussion been reduced to twenty articles talking about ME rather
than about the issues and answering the open questions?

> 	I was not questioning the theories you presented, and as a matter
> of fact, I think that they hold a certain amount of validity, I UNDERSTAND
> WHAT YOU THINK. I just think you're trying to alter the language to
> promote YOURSELF.

In what way am I "altering the language"?  By saying "now, instead of its old
definition, free will now means this: ..."?  That wudn't me who said that.

> 	In other words, you represent someone with a small idea,
> 
> 			AND A BIG MOUTH.

This statement having come from John Williams, I'm not sure whether I should
cower in fear or say "It takes one to know one".  Again, I'm sorry for typing
fast.  One of my deepest faults.  I'll correct it by chopping my fingers
off, if it pleases you.  That's what I'm here for.

> 	I guess that any sort of concession is just too hard a blow
> to your ego.

What would you like me to concede?  For what reason?

> We were not discussing ideals or theories anymore, we
> were talking about the fundamental limits of communication, and you
> are a prime example of someone who has allowed communication to
> break down.

Yeah, by insisting that words be used in the way defined by the users of
the language and not altered for convenience.  Did you all read the excerpt
I posted from Gardner's "Annotated Alice"?  Did you care to state a
contrary opinion?  I thought not.  It's not just MY opinion.  If you don't
like it, don't get off saying "it's Rosen's 'intransigence' we don't like".

> One of your disclaimers states that public consensus
> dictates what reality is, well, try this one, PUBLIC CONSENSUS DETERMINES
> LANGUAGE.

I thought I just said that.  Are the free will fanatics staging a coup
on the English language without telling the rest of us who use words in
a particular way?  (By the way, that signature line about popular
consensus was a paradoxical joke of sorts.)

> 	All you have really accomplished is to isolate yourself from
> everyone else. I no longer know what you're talking about.

YOU don't know what I'm talking about, therefore *I've* isolated myself?
If you really don't know what I'm talking about, then why are you
telling me how wrong my position is?  Why aren't you asking questions for
clarification?  Could it be that those who want free will (not exactly
a scientific way to go about learning, but then...) don't want clarification?

> I try to be
> flexible, and you try to exploit it. My patience has run out.

YOUR patience?  Imagine this article written to you twenty times by
twenty people.  Then tell me about patience.
-- 
"to be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing its best night and day
 to make you like everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human
 being can fight and never stop fighting."  - e. e. cummings
	Rich Rosen	ihnp4!pyuxd!rlr