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From: cooper@pbsvax.DEC (Topher Cooper HLO2-3/M08 DTN225-5819)
Newsgroups: net.physics
Subject: Why net.physics might be a forum for some psi discussion.
Message-ID: <3131@decwrl.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 16-Jul-85 13:12:23 EDT
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Posted: Tue Jul 16 13:12:23 1985
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>From:  Mayank Prakash 
> 
>The point is not whether these "odd phenomena" are interesting or not, but
>is this the appropriate bboard for such discussion. If you are interested in
>discussing them, go to the proper forums, such as net.scifi or net.religion or
>something. The net is already crowded with messages, and let us at least work
>towards keeping things organised so that people don't have to waste time going
>thru messages that do not interest them.
> 
>- mayank.
 
I am certainly sympathetic with this viewpoint: parapsychology is a field in
its own right and no more a part of physics than it is a branch of psychology
(though there are people in the field who will argue for each of these).  I
would like to point out that most of the discussion so far has been as
scientific as most discussions in this newsgroup, a blend of unsophisticated
speculation, misconceptions and some more or less knowledgeable discussion.
No one has come on and claimed that their spirit guide has revealed to them
that Uri Geller really has supernatural powers (though some people have come
pretty close to the opposite statement :-)).

There are, however, two reasons why I think people interested in physics should
be interested in parapsychology.  One of these reasons is independent of the
"reality" of the phenomena in question.

There is an underlying collection of facts on which modern parapsychology rests.
These facts are frequently ignored but never knowledgeably denied.  Only their
interpretation is in contention.  The facts are: in a significant fraction
(roughly one-third) of experiments in which:

	1) The outcome depends on sensitive statistical tests of large numbers
	   of trials;

	2) There is an "agent" (e.g., the experimenter) who has a particular
	   outcome they would prefer;

	3) All known ways that the outcome could be biased have been removed
	   at, or more commonly, well above, the standards one usually finds
	   in experimental science;

the experiment ends up showing a statistically significant effect.  It is
irrelevant to my point whether or not this is due to "normal" or supposed
"paranormal" influences.

Of interest to this newsgroup are those classed as PK experiments by
parapsychologists, i.e., those in which the data to which the statistical tests
are being applied are produced by a "random" physical system, rather than by
a human trying to "match" some set of targets.  Note that I am not particularly
talking about experiments done with entertainers of questionable ethics but
those done with "unselected" people or the experimenter him/herself as the
agent.

What is the difference between this type of experiment and many modern physics
experiments?  The interpretation given to positive results; the amount of
funding; the number of people involved; and the degree to which attempts are
made to exclude fraud.  I see no reason to assume that whatever causes the
anomalies in PK experiments are not equally likely to effect physics
experiments.

You can certainly claim that the standards for excluding sources of error are
higher in physics than in parapsychology, but I think you will have trouble
backing up that assertion.  If anything, the opposite is the truth, which is
why the physicists who come into parapsychology to "put it on a firm, scientific
footing" frequently make fools of themselves.

You can also recite the oft made complaints about the absence of
"replicatability" in parapsychology.  The truth seems to be that
parapsychological experiments are subject to the same 1-in-3 rule in
replication as for the original experiment.  This means that when conditions
are as described above, there is a 1-in-9 chance that you will get both a
spurious result and a spurious replication.

I am aware of the fact that the picture of the evidence for PK is not what the
Martin Gardner's and the James Randi's of the world would lead you to think it
is.  It is much easier to announce that a particular experiment (or frequently
a set of informal observations) are THE case for psi and then present scenarios
(frequently without proof) of how the observations could have occurred
"naturally."  If people are interested I can post citations to surveys of the
evidence for you to examine.

I will not belabor the second reason that people who are interested in physics
might be interested in parapsychology.  It is simply the implications to physics
IF psychic phenomena, both PK and ESP, are accepted; and I doubt that anyone
reading this who doesn't already accept that possibility will do so without
examining some of the primary source material themselves.  Most people agree,
however, that, almost by definition, the consequences to physics would be
profound.  As an example, a physicist by the name of Evan Harris Walker claims
that the properties implied for any "hidden variables" by the Aspect
experiments are, if we assume that at least some of those variables are
coupled with brain states, exactly what is needed to explain psi phenomena.
This ties in directly with recent discussions in the newsgroup about the
"completeness" of the Copenhagen interpretation of QM.

		Topher Cooper

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Disclaimer:  This contains my own opinions, and I am solely responsible for
them.