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From: moiram@tektronix.UUCP (Moira Mallison )
Newsgroups: net.women
Subject: Changing Roles
Message-ID: <5467@tektronix.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 2-Jul-85 15:36:34 EDT
Article-I.D.: tektroni.5467
Posted: Tue Jul  2 15:36:34 1985
Date-Received: Thu, 4-Jul-85 04:22:51 EDT
References: <251@timeinc.UUCP> <448@tymix.UUCP> <257@timeinc.UUCP>
Reply-To: moiram@tektronix.UUCP (Moira Mallison )
Distribution: net
Organization: Tektronix, Beaverton OR
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In article <257@timeinc.UUCP> Ross M. Greenberg writes:

>
>Certainly the items that I brought up do not qualify as legitimate
>major concerns --- when each is considered by itself.  However when
>they are all taken as a package, it means that I (for example) still
>haven't figured out how to deal with the  *new* women, and still
>be me.

Don't worry about figuring anything out, just be you.  Because you
can't win by trying to figure us out (no smiley-face here!).  
There's nothing to figure.  We've all had different experiences and 
will have different reactions to your actions. (eg.  Pam and I have
the same attitude about opening doors: a laissez-faire, not something
to make a big deal of, kind of attitude.  Some women would imperiously
wait for you to open the door.  Some women would give you a tongue
lashing for presuming they were not capable of opening a door for 
themselves.  Pam and I react differently to some of the other 
situations).  So, the only way you can win is to *be you*.  Then, if
a woman reacts negatively to who you are and/or how you are, you 
can choose to discuss the situation openly with her (or not), and 
choose to change (or not, depending on how it fits for you). 

>There is a portion of me that says that I should treat women as total
>equals in the home, at the job site, and in bed. Then there is
>another portion of me that keeps on wondering how I can do that
>when women (or at least the ones on the net) keep on talking about
>womens' superior this and that (i.e.  who says women are more
>closely in tune with their emotions?). 

There is no getting around the fact that the differences between
men and women go beyond the anatomical to the social.  To say
that women are more closely in tune with their emotions is not
to say that they are superior, just different.  If it sometimes
seems there is a higher than average emphasis placed on that trait
in this forum, perhaps it is to compensate for the lower value 
placed on it out there in the real world. 

> Or the other portion that
>says that women do not have a need to be protected  (as they
>can protect themselves), and then the women on the net tell me that *I*
>must educate my fellow *men* to the idea that (as example) rape is
>wrong.

I don't see a contradiction here, Ross.  Some women do not feel a need
to be protected.  Some women would rather risk walking alone than risk
putting themselves in a situation (with a man they don't know well) that
may turn dangerous.  It *is* prejudice, but you know, it is also called
learning from experience.  I have less of a victim attitude about my
experiences than some others, but only someone who has been in peril of
his/her life can know what terror that brings, and how the feeling haunts.
I have been in situations where I felt warm and open and trustful one
moment and fearful the next, not because of the way the man was, but
because those feelings came up.  Don't you see that it is not *you* I
don't trust.  It is ME.  I don't trust myself to make correct character 
analysis in a short period of time.  And the stakes are too high to take 
the risk.   So, instead of taking it as a personal affront and feeling 
misunderstood, use it as an opportunity to express your appreciation for 
her concern.  

None of this negates the need for education about rape in this society.

>There is a whole bunch of contradictions that men must now deal with
>for the first time.  

Welcome to the real world.  What is really at the crux of all this
is that it ain't the way they always said it would be.  We are *all*
at the effect of this to some degree.  That's hard, and it's
painful, because the illusions carry the rosy glow of happy-ever-after.

>Since I am male, I can legitimately only tell you of the feelings
>that I attribute to my maleness.  We have a choice:allow the attribution
>as sex dependant, which indicates that there are differences
>between the sexes, or reject the idea that feelings and/or thoughts are
>sex dependant, in which case we're all the same (I'm not :-)).

No, there is a third choice: to attribute feelings and thoughts to 
decisions you made because of the experiences you, AS AN INDIVIDUAL,
have had.  If some of them seem sex dependant, it is because boys have 
been treated differently than girls; there have been different expecta-
tions of boys than of girls.  Those of us who have interactions with 
children can work to change the early conditioning;  we can all choose
to change our own reactions.

>It is wonderfull to discuss the idea of education in the future solving 
>all the problems that we consider sex based.  But I have to live today. So
>when I see a pretty women crossing the street, and I wouldn't mind
>getting to know her better (she "appeals to me"), I would
>love to say: "I'd like to buy you a cup of coffee", and expect her to 
>think "What the hell", instead of me saying to myself "She might 
>take that as a sexual come on. I wonder what I should say to her instead".

The problem is with the expectation.  Expect her to act genuinely, and
you have a lesser chance of being disappointed.  Deal with others as
individuals, not as occupants of pigeon holes.  Yes, it is a lot more
work, because you can't put yourself on automatic pilot.  So, go ahead.
Invite the attractive woman out for a cup of coffee.  And take what you
get at face value.  If  she declines, for whatever reason, know that it
has so much more to do with her than to do with you.  


So, Ross, I leave you with this quote: 
"Don't take any of this personally.  I'm only reacting to you the way 
I'd react to ANYBODY who represents to me what you represent to me."  

Moira Mallison
tektronix!moiram