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From: mms1646@acf4.UUCP (Michael M. Sykora)
Newsgroups: net.politics.theory
Subject: Re: Decisions in the Social Interest and Libertarians: re to Cramer
Message-ID: <2380081@acf4.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 4-Jul-85 03:07:00 EDT
Article-I.D.: acf4.2380081
Posted: Thu Jul  4 03:07:00 1985
Date-Received: Sun, 7-Jul-85 06:23:08 EDT
References: <675@whuxl.UUCP>
Organization: New York University
Lines: 48

>/* orb@whuxl.UUCP (SEVENER) /  8:23 am  Jul  3, 1985 */

>Libertarians are unwilling to see that in fact everyone's self-interests
>are served by providing laws and just application of those laws to
>everyone.

Libertarians (none that I know) have never made such blanket claims.
You may be confusing us with Anarchists.

>Libertarians assume that the stupidity of selfishly considering only
>oneself, even when such a value leads to harm for *all*, is some sort of
>"moral virtue".

Libertarians don't believe this Tim, you must have dreamt it.
You may be confusing us with Objectivists, but if so you would be
misrepresenting them as anyway.

>They also assume that somehow people will be stupid enough
>to agree with such a system even as it leads to chaos and a situation
>in which each must battle all to get anywhere.

Such a viewpoint is not libertarianism.
You may be confusing us with Hobbesians or Social Darwinists.

>Fortunately, while people have been stupid and immoral enough to support
>such institutions as slavery and war, they have never been so stupid
>that they cannot see that many of their self-interests are best served by
>acting together so that all will benefit.

Spoken like a true Utilitarian, Tim.
 
Fortunately as well more and more people through history have been able to
see that they should have a voice and an influence in such decisions which
benefit everyone in the society.
>Hence the gradual rise of democracy from
>Athens, in which slaves, women and those without property were unable to vote
>on public decisions, . . .
>. . .  to modern America in which slavery has been abolished,

That's a hell of a gradual rise, a gradual rise with a tremendous nadir
in the middle.

>Of course Libertarians will argue that such worker democracy would be
>another "interference with property"......

Of course!

>                    tim sevener whuxl!orb