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From: cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: net.women,net.politics
Subject: Re: Discrimination and Affirmative Action
Message-ID: <263@kontron.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 24-Jun-85 12:32:47 EDT
Article-I.D.: kontron.263
Posted: Mon Jun 24 12:32:47 1985
Date-Received: Wed, 26-Jun-85 13:04:36 EDT
References: <338@unc.UUCP><><475@gargoyle.UChicago.UUCP><220@kontron.UUCP><669@fisher.UUCP><246@kontron.UUCP>
Organization: Kontron Electronics, Irvine, CA
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Xref: watmath net.women:6062 net.politics:9564

> [">>>>" = Carnes, ">>>" & ">" = Clayton, ">>" & "" = Rubin]
> 
> >>>>In my everyday encounters with people, I treat women and blacks
> >>>>somewhat differently from white males, that is, my knowledge of a
> >>>>person's race or sex can and usually does affect my actions in some
> >>>>way.  Part of the reason for this difference is my knowledge that
> >>>>both groups suffer from deep-rooted and tenacious prejudices in our
> >>>>society, and that this is an important factor in the life of each
> >>>>individual woman or black.  This does not mean that I have judged the
> >>>>individual to be better or worse merely because he or she is black or
> >>>>female, and I don't see how it makes me a racist or sexist.
> 
> >>>This used to be called "patronizing".  *I* treat everyone as an individual;
> >>>if I don't know someone, I treat them dependent on the circumstances.  In
> >>>a dark alley, everyone, regardless of race or national origin, is a potential
> >>>danger.
> 
> >>Congratulations!  You ARE the perfect person.  Now, us mere mortals
> >>who are honest enough to admit it realize that we are all prejudiced.
> >>We may rationalize our biases (as a racist does), pretend our biases
> >>don't exist (the "who, me?" bigot), or try to correct or surpress
> >>them.  Pretending they don't exist makes them more potent.
> 
> >A frightening thought: maybe I really don't have racism built in to me.
> >Why do you assume that everyone is racially prejudiced?  Is it because
> >*you* have a problem with racial prejudice?
> 
> I frankly admit to being instinctually prejudiced (prejudice does NOT
> neceassarily imply racism or any other ism; see below).  I am aware of
> this, and endeavor to firmly surpress it.
> 
> W. H. Auden once said something to the effect that all Christians 
> possessed anti-Semitic feelings, but the tragedy was that so few of them
> were ashamed of it.  It is my firm belief that ALL of us tend to
> prejudge those who are "like" us in a better manner than those who are
> "unlike", and I am shamed by my frailty.  However, knowledge must
> precede shame.
> 
"All Christians possessed anti-Semitic feelings"?  What?  That is the 
most absurd nonsense I've ever heard (in addition to being highly
prejudiced).  Please don't speak for me when you claim "ALL of us tend to
prejudge".  Some of us were raised to view prejudice as an uneqivocal
evil.

> >>Now maybe you do treat EVERYONE as an individual ALL the time; for me
> >>(and those such as Carnes who are honest enough to understand their own
> >>feelings), justness is something that must be striven for.  Frankly,
> >>those who err and atone are far more credible than those who claim
> >>never to have erred at all.
> 
> >>Now if you only would treat Carnes as an individual and stop rushing
> >>to apply a label to him so you can treat him as part of some group...
> 
> >Mr. Carnes applied the label to himself by admitting that he treats
> >blacks differently from whites.
> 
> If Carnes is a racist or sexist, than we all are.  There is a grave
> leap from acknowledged prejudice (what Carnes is guilty of) to the
> adoption of the intellectual belief in the inferiority of another race
> or sex.  Your haste to blur that distinction appears to me an attempt
> to prejudge Carnes.  If you were to acknowledge your own human 
> tendency to prejudge, you might have first determined Carnes's motives
> and his reaction to his own prejudice before you began attempting
> application of scarlet letters.
> 
> 					David Rubin
> 			{allegra|astrovax|princeton}!fisher!david

Mr. Carnes leaps from prejudice to an intellectual belief in the
inferiority of another race or sex by acknowledging that he has to 
treat blacks and women with kid gloves, rather than treating them like
anyone else.