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From: root@trwatf.UUCP (Lord Frith)
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Reply to Rich Rosen (beating dead Ethiopian horses)...
Message-ID: <1031@trwatf.UUCP>
Date: Sat, 6-Jul-85 11:32:37 EDT
Article-I.D.: trwatf.1031
Posted: Sat Jul  6 11:32:37 1985
Date-Received: Mon, 8-Jul-85 00:59:47 EDT
Reply-To: root@trwatf.UUCP (Lord Frith)
Organization: TRW Advanced Technology Facility, Merrifield VA.
Lines: 198


In article <1154@pyuxd.UUCP> rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Rich Rosen) writes:
>>
>> If I were one of those people myself, Rich, then why did I go out of my
>> way to expose this particular prejudice in people?  How could I
>> possibly succumb to this prejudice and condemn it all in the same
>> sentence?  This obvious contradiction should have been a red flag to
>> you, Rich, but instead you insisted on interpreting my statements in
>> the light that best suited you.  Go back and read the excerpt again.
>> There is no reference to you or Brower as being Jewish.
>
> As I read this, I hear a man so desperate to "clear his name" that he will
> twist and shout till he's blue in the face.  You keep doing that if you like.
> It's almost fun to watch you try it.

I didn't know you could see me through the terminal, Rich.  "Twist and
shout?" "Turn blue in the face?"  Your claims do not become reality
simply because you utter them, yet you continue to utter such distortions.
There is no evidence of "a desperate attempt to clear my name."  I've
told you the truth.  If you don't like it then that's your funeral,
not mine.

As for "twisting and shouting,"  it's quite obvious that I'm cool and
collected and not really concerned at all with what your view of my
name is.  You're the one shouting at the top of his lungs about my
supposed prejudices.

> But I wasn't alone.  Brower noticed it himself.  David Harwood, one of
> the few real Christians I've come across on this net, noticed it, too,
> as did others.

And do you see them obsessivly ranting and raving like you, Rich?  No.
What can we conclude from this?  Perhaps that Richard Brower and David Harwood
know when it is advantageous to speak their piece and when it is also
advantageous to keep silent.  Let them speak for themselves Rich.... you
cannot use their voices to sanction your behavior.

Besides, considering the many dissagreements that David Harwood and I
have had in the past, I'm not surprised that he would make such a
comment.  But then David Harwood has misinterpreted MANY statements
made by people (Mike Huybensz and others).  Calling me "dishonest" and
"cowardly" and additionally labeling what I've said as "scurrilous,"
without substantiation or attempt at Christian-style communication
doesn't strike me as the attitude of a "fine Christian" anyway.

So don't try to substantiate your claims by affiliating yourself with
"good righteous Christians" in the way that Ronald Raygun enjoys doing.
Complimenting others so as to add their voices to yours is only one
more example of the Rich Rosen style of sophistry.

>> The truth of the matter is that I did not assume you or Brower were
>> Jewish.  You can rant and rave and arrogantly insist that I am
>> prejudiced against you all you like but the truth still remains.  If
>> you don't like this, then call me a liar but you still have no proof
>> that I am and the truth remains.
>
> Proof?  Like having read your mind?  Well, they say actions speak louder
> than words.  On the net, though, one's actions ARE one's words, and your
> words speak for themselves.  From the beginning your purpose was to complain
> that the level of criticism about neo-Nazism was too much for your taste.

This simply is not true Rich.  Go back and read the original article.
Only ONCE did I mention that the volume of criticsm was becoming
counterproductive.  I did not condemn the concept of opposing such
hate baiting, but rather offered a possible alternative.  But since you
prefer your own little world I guess you'd rather not see what articles
mean on face-value.

Besides, you go on as if my original statement was the most heinous
crime of the century.  Of course you could have very tersly commented
on my postings as Richard Brower and Eliyahu Teitz did, but instead you
decided to make it a federal issue so as to promote your own little
ideas.  This is no longer a matter of exposing wrong-doing.  You've
turned it into a witch-hunt.

> When you complained that Brower and me "whining" about it would give a bad
> image to Jews, how could you make that claim unless you yourself believed
> we were both Jewish.  "Because OTHER people would mistake Brower as Jewish?"
> Who the f**k do you think you're kidding?  After the fact excuse making of
> the shoddiest kind.  Who on earth would you expect to believe such a story?

Notice how Rich simply denies the truth with sarcasm and no
substantiation.  Why do you find it so difficult to believe that such
prejudices exist, Rich?  Are you telling me that EVERYONE on the net is
intelligent enough to not make such prejudicial mistakes?  If "large
numbers" of people were unable to see Don Black's postings for what
they truly were, as you claim, then why shouldn't they also be able to
make prejudicial assumptions as I've suggested?

I'll tell you why... because you would prefer to believe that I'm prejudiced,
and you'll twist and shout and turn blue in the face until you've proved
that I'm every anti-semetic daemon that you would like me to be.

> This joke has gone far enough.

You keep saying that over and over again... as if you believed that your
words alone could somehow silence me and this bad dream would end.  Sorry
Rich.  You have no such power over me.  Apparently you have very little
reign over yourself as well.

>> [Lord Frith]
>> Just because YOU don't think it sounds Jewish, doesn't mean it doesn't
>> sound Jewish to someone else.  Actually Brower is a very Germanic sounding
>> name to me.  Probably because I once worked with one of the old-timers in
>> the space industry named Brower.  This guy had a very thick German accent
>> and was very aryan looking too with wire-rimmed glasses....
>
> So now he changing his tune, claiming that his view is that it did sound
> Jewish.  I don't know what point you're trying to make.  It sounds like you're
> trying to cover your ass with as much protective shields as possible, even
> though you've only got two buttocks.

Rich you are indeed inept.  Let me spell it all out for you....

I did not claim that the name Brower was Jewish or Jewish sounding.  Do
you see such words above?  No.  Good.  What you see is my claim that the
name Brower sounds like a German name.  That's it.  If ANYTHING I would
equate the name Brower with an Aryan image and not with a stereotypically
Jewish one as you have asserted.

And how odd that you should equate "German" with "Jewish," Rich.  Look
at your above statement again.  You're claiming that because I think
Brower is a very Germanic name, that I also believe it is a JEWISH
name.  Since when are all Germans necessarily German Jews?  That's
exactly the sort of prejiduce that YOU were condemning ME of and now
you blithely parade such thinking before everyone as if you were immune
to any such prejudices.

Rich... you're not only inept.  You're a hypocrite as well.

>> [Lord Frith]
>> No... I believe that "others" are prejudiced because they have TOLD me they
>> recognize this particular trait and interpret it as a Jewish one.  And guess
>> what Rich... SOME OF THESE PEOPLE ARE JEWISH.
>>
> Oh, please!  Your "best friends"?  Another buttock-coverer that's made of
> tissue-paper.

They are NOT my "best friends."  These are your words Rich.  Can't you
carry on an argument without distorting and twisting the facts into
some bizzare surrealist sculpture?

Interestingly enough, my Jewish friends are the ones that are most keenly
aware of such prejudices because they live with them all the time.  You
should have seen them rolling in the aisles during the opening song in
"March of the Falssetos."

These stereotypes are not only the mythos of the Jewish culture but they
also reflect reality in many cases.  Maybe you don't want to recognize this
Rich for your own personal reasons, but don't try and manipulate the facts
simply because you cannot accept them.

>> Again more distortions on your part Rich.  This is just the sort of
>> typical "Rich Rosen pin-the-meter" attitude that I object to.  I DID
>> NOT say speaking out against bigotry is excessive and counterproductive.
>> I said excessive and irresponsible flaming, no matter what it's
>> proposed intent, can be counterproductive.  There's a big difference.
>
> When repeatedly asked what is called "excessive and irresponsible", you
> just refer to my postings and say "there".  Why are they "excessive and
> irresponsible"?  You never bother to say, as if the lord's opinion was
> gospel.  And I doubt that you ever will.  Since at bottom you have offered
> nothing of substance throughout.

Take a look at your current behavior.  How many articles have you
posted, thus far, in retaliation against my original posting?  To what
end?  Are you serving some good purpose with this ridicule?  Are you
sure that you're following altruistic motives... or are you perhaps
being driven by some darker obsession?  Have you actually bothered to
find out what effect your postings have?  Have you considered talking
with people via UUCP-mail instead of beating them in public?

If you'd like to discuss something with more substance then start
such a conversation.  How about the current situation in Ethiopia.
We haven't hear much from that lately.

Here's my current problem... it seems that much of what we send over to
Ehtiopia is wasted due to the lack of adequate transportation and spoilage.
The grain that we send over is simply going down the drain because the
containers open up and expose the grain to moisture letting it ferment.

What can we do about this?  Political pressure seems somewhat ineffective.
It would be a shame to cut off aid, yet I don't really wish to seem my
hard-earned dollars wasted because some Marxist regime doesn't care about
it's own people enough to feed them or to distribute food that we make
readily available.

> Thank you.  And goodbye.  Don't call me, and I won't call you.

He keeps saying that.

Yet like Herpes... he keeps coming back again and again and again...
-- 

UUCP: ...{decvax,ihnp4,allegra}!seismo!trwatf!root	- Lord Frith
ARPA: trwatf!root@SEISMO

"Money for you from the Buddah"