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From: cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: net.women,net.politics
Subject: Re: Discrimination and AA
Message-ID: <336@kontron.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 5-Jul-85 14:50:08 EDT
Article-I.D.: kontron.336
Posted: Fri Jul  5 14:50:08 1985
Date-Received: Sat, 6-Jul-85 11:13:41 EDT
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Organization: Kontron Electronics, Irvine, CA
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Xref: utcs net.women:6314 net.politics:9597

> > I suggest the government do NOTHING about it, since its competence,
> > sincerity, and immunity to the influence of the people it "regulates"
> > are all suspect.
> > 
> Under your system, women would not have the right to vote, and we would
> still be under segragated public transportation, schools, etc.
> 
I think the original remark referred to affirmative action, as opposed to
equal employment opportunities.  Segregated public transportation, in much
of the South was because of governmental policies which *required* 
segregation.  Public schooling, ditto.  Women's suffrage is an unrelated
issue.  You are confusing affirmative action, where the government 
actively takes steps, with eliminating discriminatory practices by the
government.

> > I suggest that individuals can have a strong effect without invoking
> > the government -- refuse to work for bigots.  Refuse to buy from
> > bigots.  Don't associate with them.
> 
> If bigots are favored by the system, and government should do nothing about
> the system, you are giving bigots quite an advantage in the competition for
> jobs, advancement and power. Suggesting that those who are discriminated
> against or those who disapprove of discrimination should go away
> and leave the field to bigots strikes me as curious.
> 
Bigots are not favored by the system; read Thomas Sowell's _Markets_
_And_ _Minorities_ for an analysis of the effects of free markets on bigots.
Some of the interference with the free market in this country has been
done *for the purpose of protecting bigots*.

> > If you can't seem to find any non-bigots, you're probably living in
> > the wrong place.  Pull up stakes and move to a more enlightened
> > neigborhood.
> 
> WHat if the "neighborhood" is the entire country? WHere should we move to?
> And why should people be forced to leave the location they choose to live
> in just because some bigot also decides to live there?
> 
If the entire country is bigoted, and yet you want the country to stop 
bigotry, then you obviously are opposed to democracy.  That's OK, libertarians
are opposed to democracy as well, for precisely this reason.  If the whole
population is bigoted, only a dictatorship will eliminate bigotry by
law.  (It is interesting to note that during the medieval period, the
only protection Jews usually had from the people was the nobility.  I
hasten to add, this protection usually wasn't because of noble-mindedness
by the king, but economic necessity.)
 
> > Every time a talented individual refuses to work for a bigoted
> > employer, the employer's business suffers.  Ditto for when customers
> > stop buying from him.  Most industries are competitive enought that
> > it doesn't take a whole lot to tip the bozos into oblivion.
> > 
> If that were true, how come discrimination is so ingrained in our
> society? If discrimination is present in EVERY competitor in a
> given market, where do you suggest individuals go?
> 
Because free markets are an abstraction in this country, for the most
part.  Some parts of the economy are fairly free, but most of the 
economy is regulated --- some to protect established companies, some
to protect consumers, and some just because regulations, once put into
effect, don't go away, even when the need is gone.

> > Don't wait for the government to come up with a magic wand to make
> > everything better.  They'll never find one.  All they have is
> > bureaucracy and taxpayers' money.  People have to live their own
> > lives as best they can, in a world that will always be screwed up,
> > one way or another.
> > 		-- Robert Plamondon
> 
> If I understand you correctly, the world is discriminatory, and the bigots
> are in power, and the rest of us should suffer in silence, because
> "that's the way it is" I will not comment on it, because I fear I would lapse
> into incoherent anger. If I misunderstood you, please clarify.
> 
> Marcel Simon

You don't understand correctly.  Mr. Plamondon is saying that if the
bigots are in the minority, you can achieve a discrimination-free society
by private action.  If the bigots are in the majority, you need a 
dictatorship to achieve your goals.