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From: jho@ihu1m.UUCP (Yosi Hoshen)
Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish
Subject: Re: Clarification indeed!
Message-ID: <490@ihu1m.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 3-Jul-85 23:43:06 EDT
Article-I.D.: ihu1m.490
Posted: Wed Jul  3 23:43:06 1985
Date-Received: Fri, 5-Jul-85 06:40:01 EDT
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Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
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Avi Feldblum=>
>Thus, I do not think that Orthodox Judaism and the Torah represent any
>physical danger to the USA homosexual population. 
       What about the homosexual population in Israel?

>The Orthodox Jewish community is that subset of the Jewish people who strive
>to live their lives in accordance with the path defined by the Torah.

I have no problem with that.   Orthodox Jews Should live in accordance
with their beliefs.  Similarly, Orthodox Jews  should understand that
other people, such as homosexuals and secular Jews, have also the right
to live their life without interference from the orthodox.

In our attitudes towards others we have to separate the private issues
from the public issues.  Privately, a person has the right to like or
dislike others.  However, discrimination and persecution of a group of
people in the public domain is completely another matter.  An example
of such discrimination would be limiting the access of homosexuals
to the job market.

I am not suggesting that the orthodox should be forced to socialize with
homosexuals.  The fact that you don't want to invite a homosexual 
to your home is nobody's business. On the other hand, if you refuse 
to hire him because of his life style, it becomes  a public issue.  The
operation of a private or  a public business, requires a permit from 
the government.  A civilized government cannot allow discrimination 
against a group of people. (Today it is the gay person, tomorrow it 
could be you.)

>The Torah tells us that homosexuality is an abomination. Anyone who
>...
>...                                                   In addition, while
>I will not harm him, I believe that he is harming me (unlike Rich who
>states that his actions are totally private and do not harm me, but then
>Rich does not agree that his actions have the consequences I believe
>they do). First of all, there is the harm done to the soul of the Jewish
>people, second his actions delay the coming of the Meshiach (Messiah),
>and third (this applies to non-Jewish homosexuals as well, but mainly in
>the land of Israel) acts of abomination cause retaliation by God against
>the land.                                                              

Christians can use a logic similar to yours.  They can say that
since you as a Jew do not accept Jesus as your personal savior, you
delay the second coming of Christ, thus, causing a great harm to
all the inhabitants of this planet.  By not accepting Jesus you
may cause retaliation by God against the entire world, and not just 
against one country.

There are segments in the Jewish orthodox community that exhibit tolerance 
levels that can be  viewed as Khumenism Jewish style.  They tend
to forget a very important Jewish  principle of tolerance,
   "Al ta'a'se l'chavercha ma she'sanu aleicha",  
which can be translated to, "Don't do to your friend (implying
another person) what you detest"
-- 
Yosi Hoshen, AT&T Bell Laboratories
Naperville, Illinois,  Mail: ihnp4!ihu1m!jho