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From: ariels@orca.UUCP (Ariel Shattan)
Newsgroups: net.women,net.politics,net.social
Subject: Re: Discrimination against women and statistics
Message-ID: <1600@orca.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 3-Jul-85 16:18:32 EDT
Article-I.D.: orca.1600
Posted: Wed Jul  3 16:18:32 1985
Date-Received: Thu, 4-Jul-85 18:36:33 EDT
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Will Martin writes:

>In article <2566@randvax.UUCP> edhall@rand-unix.UUCP (Ed Hall) writes:
>>  Men benifit tremendously from marriage, both economically
>>and in terms of getting someone to take care of them.  Women benifit
>>far less, but if the other alternatives are restricted it won't seem as
>>bad.
>>
>Well, I think that *my* wife has gotten a LOT of economic benefits from
>our marriage. When we married, we both worked full time, at
>professional-level Army jobs. Her marriage has allowed her to still live
>comfortably, while at the same time:
>
[List of benifits that have come to his wife since she married him, 
including quitting her job, starting a short-lived business, not 
needing to work for a time, taking temporary positions so as to 
increase choice of work/not work, using her income as fun-money.]
>
>Now, I accept that the only reason this situation is at all possible is
>because we have chosen to have no children or automobiles, both of which
>are infinite money sinks. But nobody is *forcing* any of the poor
>downtrodden masses, or whoever else you are referring to, to behave
>differently than we do -- they act differently because they choose to do
>so. I think they are making the wrong choices, and we made the right
>ones, and I think the evidence supports my correctness.
>
>Will

Obviously you equate economic benefits with not having to work for a
living.  There are some who'd debate this, but I won't here.  I'd
rather attack that final paragraph:

I disagree, Will.  The only reason this is possible is not because
you don't have kids or cars, though that helps, it's because you make
enough money in your job that one of you doesn't *have* to work.  

To say "If I can do it, anyone can" is one of the American Myths.
It just ain't so.  Most people don't have the benifit of a decent
education; they couldn't afford it.  Most people are so busy trying
to feed and house themselves and their families that they can only
dream of something better. Many people aren't offered the choices
that most of us take for granted.  To say that they should *take*
the choices shows a real lack of understanding of how people work.
Only those who *really* overcame prejudice and adversity (not just 
setbacks and disappointments, we all have those) have any right to say 
such things, and most of them know better.  

Most families, childless or not, don't have the luxury of one person
not working.  Just to feed two mouths takes money.  To say that
they're making the *wrong* choices and you're making the *right*
ones is unrealistic and cruel, besides being elitist, narrow-minded,
and insulting.  

Kids: What do you say to the poor teenager who's been raped, or who's 
just been messing around and ended up pregnant (because no-one told
her about birth control).  Get an abortion? With what money?

Ok, so she has the baby.  Should she abuse it because it's in her way?
Murder it, maybe? Give it to her mother to care for? What about all the
scorn and hatred poured in her direction for being an unwed teenage
mother.  What about schools that don't let "showing" teenagers in
class? These are *public* schools.  There's no money for a private
education, the special schools for teenagers in trouble are full, or
have to close down for lack of funding.  What now?  Here's a girl
caught in the downward spiral of poverty and welfare.  What do you tell
her? Are *YOU* (yes, you, Will) prepared to take the time to talk with
her, and help her feel like a worthwhile human being? Are you going to
help her sort out her alternatives?  Help her to *see* her choices?

Cars:  I know more people who have clunkers than have new cars and
payments.  They need the transportation!  Out here in the West, the
public transportation is not nearly as good as it is in the East.  I
never drove when I lived in Illinois, but when I came to Oregon, I
found that my quality of life improved markedly when I got a car (after
9 months auto-less).  There are major employment areas without public
transportation of any sort, and if you live close enough to walk, you
can't get anywhere else (like the grocery store).

----

Where would you be if your parents had picked the *right* choices as
you define them?  

Until you live as someone else, stating that the choices that they make
are wrong is the ultimate in egotism.  Just because something is right
for you doesn't make it right for the world! (Besides, one data
point does not "evidence" make.)

And as to the benefits of marriage for men and women, Ed didn't say
that women didn't benefit (though I might if my fur were ruffled
enough), he said that marriage benefits men *more* than it
benefits women.  

This question has been studied by many researchers, and if happiness
is any indication of benefit, I'll give you the results that a
(female) friend's mother used to quote at her when she talked about
getting married (no details on the study, of course): Men are
happiest when married, women are happiest when single.  

It's only been very recently that the rule "A married couple is one
person, and that person is the man," has not been the basis for
legal decisions reguarding marriage.  There are some very
interesting histories of marriage laws around, and while I haven't
got titles and authors, it might be worth looking in the Women's
Studies section of your local progressive bookstore.  

Lately, laws have been getting better (e.g., more equal) WRT men,
women, and marriage, but we still have a long way to go.  You might
try reading Dear Abby or Ann Landers for some quick sketches of what
life is like for many wives.

Ariel (not really wife material, but I might consider it) Shattan
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