Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site gargoyle.UChicago.UUCP
Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxn!ihnp4!gargoyle!shallit
From: shallit@gargoyle.UChicago.UUCP (Jeff Shallit)
Newsgroups: net.politics
Subject: Handgun control (again)
Message-ID: <503@gargoyle.UChicago.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 24-Jun-85 12:03:55 EDT
Article-I.D.: gargoyle.503
Posted: Mon Jun 24 12:03:55 1985
Date-Received: Tue, 25-Jun-85 08:03:27 EDT
References: <484@gargoyle.UChicago.UUCP> <> <493@gargoyle.UChicago.UUCP> <>
Reply-To: shallit@gargoyle.UUCP (Jeff )
Organization: U. Chicago - Computer Science
Lines: 50
Summary: 

In article <> steiny@idsvax.UUCP (Don Steiny) writes:
>
>	Jeff, I and others have posted the articles many times.  You
>are correct, they are by Kates.   The only comeback you ever have to 
>the articles is that you don't like Kates.  That is called an "ad homimum
>fallacy" and does not contribute to your side of the argument at all.

No, Don.  It's called an "ad hominem" argument.  We would be more impressed
with your knowledge of Latin if you consulted a dictionary before composing
your articles.

The point is that Kates *manufactures* statistics.  I have argued against
him in person in California--when confronted he could not produce the
names of half of the studies he quotes so enthusiastically.

>You somehow think that the number of handgun deaths is an argument
>against handguns, but you have never posted any material that
>addresses the issues he raises.   For instance, what are 
>people who live in rural areas without police protection
>supposed to do to defend themselves?

False, Don.  I *have* posted articles about this.  A handgun is not
an adequate means of defense.  People who live in rural areas would be
better advised to buy rifles and shotguns for self-protection, if they
want a gun.

>THE POLICE advise people
>around here to get guns and learn how to use them.  

That may be true, Don.  But the police chiefs I am acquainted with
do NOT recommend handguns.  They recommend shotguns.  See the book by
the police chief of San Jose.

>Don't forget that Kates has said that violent crime INCREASES
>in areas with strick gun control and he cites the statistics to
>back himself up.

Wrong again, Don.  Look at Washington, D. C., where both the murder
rate and crime rate went down by 25% after a strict gun control law
was enacted there.  Look at Massachusetts, where the homicide rate
decreased by 20% after a gun control law enacted there.  Look at
Morton Grove, where there have been NO murders and NO suicides since
the passage of its famous handgun ban (in the previous six years,
there were four suicides and three homicides).

Don, I don't doubt your sincerity.  However, I am skeptical of the
statistics cited by Kates, and you should be, too.

Jeff Shallit
University of Chicago