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From: cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: net.politics
Subject: Re: Congratulations to the NRA
Message-ID: <268@kontron.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 24-Jun-85 19:27:44 EDT
Article-I.D.: kontron.268
Posted: Mon Jun 24 19:27:44 1985
Date-Received: Wed, 26-Jun-85 05:46:49 EDT
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Organization: Kontron Electronics, Irvine, CA
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> >> me
> > C. Cramer
> >> 
> >>     The hail of bullets was responsible for 16,575 suicides, 13,841 murders,
> >>  1,756 accidental deaths, 540 undetermined deaths and 276 killing by
> >>  law enforcement agents. (In 1982)
> >>  
> >
> >Tell me how eliminating guns is going to stop the 16,575 suicides from
> >taking their lives with the other dangerous instruments that are available.
> 
> A good question, Mr. Cramer, and one worth discussing in detail.
> 
> In a report from the Public Policy department of the University of California,
> Berkeley entitled "Handgun Violence:  Biting the Bullet on Effective Controls",
> the authors discuss a study of suicides in Great Britain.  A significant
> portion of the suicides there occurred by suffocation with gas.  This method
> was particularly effective because the particular gas supplied to most of
> Great Britain was very high in monoxides.
> 
> However, when the source of gas ran out and Britain was forced to buy gas
> elsewhere, the suicide rate dropped dramatically (more than 35%) and
> STAYED DOWN.  That's because the new gas had a much lower monoxide content;
> people were LESS SUCCESSFUL in their attempted suicides.  The fact that the
> rate stayed down indicates they did not switch to more effective means of
> suicide.
> 
> A less dramatic example is afforded by the suicide statistics in the US.
> Although men and women attempt suicide in roughly equal numbers, men are
> much more successful.  Why?  Because the instrument of choice for men is
> usually a handgun--and attempted suicide with a handgun is generally much
> more successful.
> 
> Do you know anyone who's attempted suicide?  If so, then you know that
> frequently suicidal impulses are temporary; counseling is often very
> effective in preventing suicides.  You might as well ask, Mr. Cramer, why
> isn't everyone who ever attempted suicide dead know.  By your reasoning,
> they would continue using more and more violent and successful methods
> until they succeeded.
> 
> The truth is that decreased availability of handguns would cut the suicide
> rate, especially among males.  
> 
> Jeff Shallit

Question 1: Did the suicide rate and attempted suicide rate drop by the
same amount?  Did the greater number of botched suicides result in a larger
number of people who were permanently crippled or brain damaged?  (A lot
of failed suicides --- as most suicide attempts fail --- result in people
who spend years suffering from their clumsy attempt.)

Question 2: Why wouldn't men turn from suicide with one macho device --- a
gun --- to another macho device --- a car?  The car is far more dangerous
of a device to others if you try to use it for suicide.