Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site kontron.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!cbosgd!ihnp4!pesnta!pertec!kontron!cramer From: cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) Newsgroups: net.politics Subject: Re: Congratulations to the NRA Message-ID: <268@kontron.UUCP> Date: Mon, 24-Jun-85 19:27:44 EDT Article-I.D.: kontron.268 Posted: Mon Jun 24 19:27:44 1985 Date-Received: Wed, 26-Jun-85 05:46:49 EDT References: <484@gargoyle.UChicago.UUCP> <166@idsvax.UUCP> <> <494@gargoyle.UChicago.UUCP> Organization: Kontron Electronics, Irvine, CA Lines: 54 > >> me > > C. Cramer > >> > >> The hail of bullets was responsible for 16,575 suicides, 13,841 murders, > >> 1,756 accidental deaths, 540 undetermined deaths and 276 killing by > >> law enforcement agents. (In 1982) > >> > > > >Tell me how eliminating guns is going to stop the 16,575 suicides from > >taking their lives with the other dangerous instruments that are available. > > A good question, Mr. Cramer, and one worth discussing in detail. > > In a report from the Public Policy department of the University of California, > Berkeley entitled "Handgun Violence: Biting the Bullet on Effective Controls", > the authors discuss a study of suicides in Great Britain. A significant > portion of the suicides there occurred by suffocation with gas. This method > was particularly effective because the particular gas supplied to most of > Great Britain was very high in monoxides. > > However, when the source of gas ran out and Britain was forced to buy gas > elsewhere, the suicide rate dropped dramatically (more than 35%) and > STAYED DOWN. That's because the new gas had a much lower monoxide content; > people were LESS SUCCESSFUL in their attempted suicides. The fact that the > rate stayed down indicates they did not switch to more effective means of > suicide. > > A less dramatic example is afforded by the suicide statistics in the US. > Although men and women attempt suicide in roughly equal numbers, men are > much more successful. Why? Because the instrument of choice for men is > usually a handgun--and attempted suicide with a handgun is generally much > more successful. > > Do you know anyone who's attempted suicide? If so, then you know that > frequently suicidal impulses are temporary; counseling is often very > effective in preventing suicides. You might as well ask, Mr. Cramer, why > isn't everyone who ever attempted suicide dead know. By your reasoning, > they would continue using more and more violent and successful methods > until they succeeded. > > The truth is that decreased availability of handguns would cut the suicide > rate, especially among males. > > Jeff Shallit Question 1: Did the suicide rate and attempted suicide rate drop by the same amount? Did the greater number of botched suicides result in a larger number of people who were permanently crippled or brain damaged? (A lot of failed suicides --- as most suicide attempts fail --- result in people who spend years suffering from their clumsy attempt.) Question 2: Why wouldn't men turn from suicide with one macho device --- a gun --- to another macho device --- a car? The car is far more dangerous of a device to others if you try to use it for suicide.