Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site looking.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!looking!brad From: brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) Newsgroups: can.politics Subject: The state is NOT the people ... Re: paying plumbers Message-ID: <304@looking.UUCP> Date: Mon, 15-Jul-85 00:00:00 EDT Article-I.D.: looking.304 Posted: Mon Jul 15 00:00:00 1985 Date-Received: Wed, 17-Jul-85 04:09:08 EDT References: <533@ttidcc.UUCP> <302@looking.UUCP> <2210@watcgl.UUCP> Organization: Looking Glass Software, Waterloo, Ont Lines: 60 Summary: In article <2210@watcgl.UUCP> jchapman@watcgl.UUCP (john chapman) writes: >> (Moi:) >> To suggest that the value of a human being's work is based on some tables >> in the government is demeaning. It reduces us to cogs. Deciding value >> is (* surprise *) a value judgement, and it should be subjective. > > I know some clerical staff who would *love* to be demeaned by having > an independant authority decide how much they should be paid in > general; their pay/conditions could not get much worse than they > are now. I'm surprised you think it less demeaning for the value > of a human being's work to be based on random market forces or a > hiring criterion based on getting the most for the least. > So what if the clerical staff don't find it demeaning to have somebody else come in, uninvited, and evaluate their worth. Many do find it demeaning and they are not provided with any option in the matter under EPFWOEV laws. Also, what are "random" market forces? Market forces are the forces of people, REAL people whom you seem very unconcerned about. I suspect they rather resent being called random factors. Most kinda think they have free will. > > Not at all necessary; what is necessary is that the decision be made > people/persons who can make such a determination independently and > without prejudice. Also it is possible that people == state can be > true you know. Well, you're not going to get away with this one. I have yet to see a shred of evidence that the people and the state are the same in today's world. When they do become the same, through the use of computer networks (NOT particpatory democracy, btw) then almost all of my political goals will have been realized. Currently: Anarchy: No state Dictatorship: "L'etat, c'est moi", as a certain French king once said Theocracy: The state is the church Soviet Union: The state is the Kremlin Executive Representative Democracy: The state is ~ the cabinet (This is the one Canada is closest to most of the time) U.S.A. : the state is the President, Congress and Courts balancing one another. Representative democracy: The state is the legislature. Participatory democracy: The state is any given 51% of the people, varying from issue to issue. Computer Netonomic society: The state is the people. (You can guess which of the above is of my design!) -- Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. - Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473