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From: jchapman@watcgl.UUCP (john chapman)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: The state is NOT the people ... Re: paying plumbers
Message-ID: <2223@watcgl.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 17-Jul-85 09:19:03 EDT
Article-I.D.: watcgl.2223
Posted: Wed Jul 17 09:19:03 1985
Date-Received: Thu, 18-Jul-85 02:35:47 EDT
References: <533@ttidcc.UUCP> <302@looking.UUCP> <2210@watcgl.UUCP> <304@looking.UUCP>
Organization: U of Waterloo, Ontario
Lines: 57

.
.
> >> To suggest that the value of a human being's work is based on some tables
> >> in the government is demeaning.  It reduces us to cogs.  Deciding value
> >> is (* surprise *) a value judgement, and it should be subjective.
> >
> > I know some clerical staff who would *love* to be demeaned by having
> > an independant authority decide how much they should be paid in
> > general; their pay/conditions could not get much worse than they
> > are now.  I'm surprised you think it less demeaning for the value
> > of a human being's work to be based on random market forces or a
> > hiring criterion based on getting the most for the least.
> >
> 
> So what if the clerical staff don't find it demeaning to have somebody
> else come in, uninvited, and evaluate their worth.  Many do find it demeaning
> and they are not provided with any option in the matter under EPFWOEV laws.

 The point was that many people would find it no more (probably less)
 demeaning to have an independent body decide on their renumeration than
 a "boss" whose motivations are hardly what is fair but rather how to
 maximize profit.  Maximizing profit does not include considerations
 like human dignity, allowing people (employees) to lead reasonable
 lifestyles etc.  There are many people who are consistently demeaned
 by our system.  I expect people who plan to "come out on top" in our
 society to resist things like EPFWOEV since it would likely reduce
 the gap between them and those below but to attack it on the grounds
 that it is demeaning is hardly credible.
 

> Also, what are "random" market forces?  Market forces are the forces of
> people, REAL people whom you seem very unconcerned about.  I suspect they
> rather resent being called random factors.  Most kinda think they have free
> will.

 Market forces consist of a lot more than "people";  want an example?
 weather and oranges and demand for pickers (and therefore probably the
 wages for pickers).

> 
> > 
> > Not at all necessary; what is necessary is that the decision be made
> > people/persons who can make such a determination independently and
> > without prejudice. Also it is possible that  people == state can be
> > true you know.
> 
> Well, you're not going to get away with this one.  I have yet to see a

Well I'm not trying to "get away" with anything at all.  To make the
point more verbosely: at times the actions of the state accurately
reflect the wishes of the people.

.
. 
> Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. - Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473

John Chapman