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From: quint@topaz.ARPA (Amqueue)
Newsgroups: net.women,net.flame
Subject: Re: Women/men and the consumption of toilet paper
Message-ID: <2467@topaz.ARPA>
Date: Mon, 1-Jul-85 19:31:16 EDT
Article-I.D.: topaz.2467
Posted: Mon Jul  1 19:31:16 1985
Date-Received: Tue, 2-Jul-85 06:36:11 EDT
References: <464@ttidcc.UUCP> <465@gitpyr.UUCP> <2345@topaz.ARPA> <490@gitpyr.UUCP>
Reply-To: quint@topaz.UUCP (Amqueue)
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 92
Xref: watmath net.women:6197 net.flame:10924

In article <490@gitpyr.UUCP> roy@gitpyr.UUCP (Roy Mongiovi) writes:
   in reply to my message <2345@topaz.arpa>:
>> What makes you think that girls don't have strong physical reactions to the 
>> sight of aesthetically pleasing men? Girls get horny too, and just because 
>> dont have an obvious visible physical reaction doesnt mean we dont have the
>> same desires. But the excuse that your gonads made you do it is immature and
>> childish, and criminal if your subsequent actions are rape. Your horniness 
>> does not give you the right to tell me what I can and cannot wear. Nor does 
>> it give you the right or the privelege to relieve yourself with anyone who
>> isn't willing. Most men over the emotional age of 12 have the self-control
>> necessary to live from day to day. Why is sex assumed to be exempt from this?
>
>My credibility has been gone for years, why else would I be posting to this
>ridiculous female-chauvinist (to coin a phrase) newsgroup?  In the past I have
>been told (by this very newsgroup) that I cannot call a female a "girl" even
>though I find that term more attractive than "woman" because the female I
>call a girl might be offended and cannot take the time to realize that I am
>not being condescending about it.  Fine.  The moral of that story is that I
>am supposed to curb my speech because of the way other people might interpret
>it.  Now you turn right around and say that it isn't the woman's fault if a
>man misinterprets the way she dresses.  Am I the only one in the world that
>this seems inconsistant to?

Taking your analogy to its (seemingly) logical conclusion, I cannot dress the
way I want to look my best because you find it inconvenient to talk in a way
that makes you "look your best". I am not being inconsistent, YOU are. I may 
be wrong, but I beleive the promary definition of "girl" is a young human 
female, pre-adult. Young also has connotations of immature and incompetent,
and usually sounds condescending to a female person who has tried to be a 
mature, competent, respected person. Thus using "girl" generically is similar
to dressing up in grimy blue jeans and a tie-dyed t-shirt for an executive
meeting: it serves the same purpose, but is inadequate, in bad taste, and 
liable to get you in trouble. (not counting those companies which have *no*
dress code).

>When I go walking the streets of Atlanta at 11pm, I DO NOT dress up in my best
>clothes because that is a sign to muggers that I'm a good choice for a roll.
>Ignoring the fact that it is wrong for him to mug me, it is STUPID for me to
>dress in a fashion that invites a mugging.  The fact that I am more comfortable
>in those clothes has nothing to do with it.  Rape may be absolutely the worst
>crime on the earth (and you won't hear me argue about that), but if the woman
>dresses in a fashion that broadcasts that fact that she is desirable, she at
>least should accept that she attracted the rape by her manner of dress.  Your
>life is yours to live as you see fit, but if you play with knives you will get
>cut.
>-- 

So. what if the woman has a date with a man whom she wishes think that she
is desirable (i think that makes sense...)... must she bring a change of 
clothing with her so that when she is going home that night she does not 
invite a rape? Mugging and Rape are NOT comparable crimes!!!!!!!!! If you get
mugged, you will lose your money, and perhaps sustain physical injury. If
you live, you will most probably not have severe mental and emotional 
problems that would keep you from interacting normally with motas. If you 
try to bring the criminal to court, you will not hear moralizing from the
attorneys on how you were asking for it. You will not be mishandled in the
hospital because you are immoral. I know someone who was raped. She was
wearing jeans, a loose t-shirt, a loose woolen sweater, and a jacket tied 
around her waist. She is and was rather overwieght. She was approached in a 
lighted area of a park, at about 5am (a time when many people are awake and 
going to work). She received a slash on her neck, at which point she stopped 
struggling, so as not to pump blood out faster. The rapist removed the 
tampon and fucked her, and then proceeded to try to take care of the slash. 
She managed to get him to go away, and then called the cops. A car picked 
her up, and they found the guy on the way to the hospital. She had to have 
the stitches replaced twice, cause the original doctor mangled it. She has a 
scar on her neck, 6 years later. The attorney assigned to her case said he
didnt really think she had a good case cause of the time of day and the fact
that she wasnt a virgin, but she was in luck cause she wasnt wearing a dress.
The defender called her a liar, a prostitute, and various other names to
discredit her. The rapist finally went to jail cause the defender recommended
it... cause he lied about having vd.

If she had been mugged, she would NOT have had the harrassment, the 
maltreatment, and the slander. She would potentially have gotten her money
back. As it is, she had to pay to get rid of the VD that the rapist gave
her. She is not particularly attractive, she was not dressed attractively, 
and she wasnt even trying to draw attention to herself. She will now not 
walk more than 1/2 block alone at night, nor take mass transit, or talk to 
people at random even to give directions. a friendly outgoing person has
become frightened, paranoid, and withdrawn. And also dangerous, because she
now carries a pocket knife around constantly. 

>Roy J. Mongiovi.	Office of Computing Services.		User Services.
>Georgia Institute of Technology.	Atlanta GA  30332.	(404) 894-6163
> ...!{akgua, allegra, amd, hplabs, ihnp4, masscomp, ut-ngp}!gatech!gitpyr!roy

For yet another time: clothing does not determine rape. Babies, prepubescent
children, nuns, age-wrinkled grandmothers all get raped. Clothing does
not determine rape.

/amqueue