Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site kontron.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxt!houxm!mtuxo!mtunh!mtung!mtunf!ariel!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!tektronix!hplabs!pesnta!pertec!kontron!cramer From: cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) Newsgroups: net.politics.theory Subject: Re: Decisions in the Social Interest and Libertarians: re to Cramer Message-ID: <351@kontron.UUCP> Date: Mon, 8-Jul-85 20:06:32 EDT Article-I.D.: kontron.351 Posted: Mon Jul 8 20:06:32 1985 Date-Received: Sat, 13-Jul-85 12:16:01 EDT References: <298@spar.UUCP> <2380037@acf4.UUCP> <657@whuxl.UUCP> <2325@topaz.ARPA> <662@whuxl.UUCP> <291@kontron.UUCP> <675@whuxl.UUCP> Organization: Kontron Electronics, Irvine, CA Lines: 34 > Libertarians assume that the stupidity of selfishly considering only > oneself, even when such a value leads to harm for *all*, is some sort of > "moral virtue". They also assume that somehow people will be stupid enough > to agree with such a system even as it leads to chaos and a situation > in which each must battle all to get anywhere. > Fortunately, while people have been stupid and immoral enough to support > such institutions as slavery and war, they have never been so stupid > that they cannot see that many of their self-interests are best served by > acting together so that all will benefit. > People have been stupid and immoral enough to support slavery and war, and you have confidence that they are smart enough (collectively) to do other things sensibly! There are no fundamentalists with a faith as blind as yours. > Fortunately as well more and more people through history have been able to > see that they should have a voice and an influence in such decisions which > benefit everyone in the society. Hence the gradual rise of democracy from > Athens, in which slaves, women and those without property were unable to vote > on public decisions, to revolutionary America in which only propertied > men could vote, to modern America in which slavery has been abolished, > women can vote (and even begin to hold high elective offices) and on to > the future when those who work will be able to vote to help make decisions > instead of having them imposed by autocratic managers. > Of course Libertarians will argue that such worker democracy would be > another "interference with property"...... > tim sevener whuxl!orb Your knowledge of history is showing --- and it's deficient. Immediately after the American Revolution, the voting qualification varied substantially, but ownership of property was not a requirement in all places --- some states allowed voting if you could demonstrate a certain level of income, not just ownership of real estate. Second, some states allowed women to vote (briefly).