Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84 exptools; site ihu1m.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!bonnie!akgua!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!ihu1m!jho From: jho@ihu1m.UUCP (Yosi Hoshen) Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish Subject: Re: Clarification indeed! Message-ID: <490@ihu1m.UUCP> Date: Wed, 3-Jul-85 23:43:06 EDT Article-I.D.: ihu1m.490 Posted: Wed Jul 3 23:43:06 1985 Date-Received: Fri, 5-Jul-85 06:40:01 EDT References: <277@ucdavis.UUCP> <329@mhuxi.UUCP> <611@sfmag.UUCP> <612@sfmag.UUCP> <1137@pyuxd.UUCP> <481@ihu1m.UUCP> <143@erc3ba.UUCP> Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories Lines: 57 Avi Feldblum=> >Thus, I do not think that Orthodox Judaism and the Torah represent any >physical danger to the USA homosexual population. What about the homosexual population in Israel? >The Orthodox Jewish community is that subset of the Jewish people who strive >to live their lives in accordance with the path defined by the Torah. I have no problem with that. Orthodox Jews Should live in accordance with their beliefs. Similarly, Orthodox Jews should understand that other people, such as homosexuals and secular Jews, have also the right to live their life without interference from the orthodox. In our attitudes towards others we have to separate the private issues from the public issues. Privately, a person has the right to like or dislike others. However, discrimination and persecution of a group of people in the public domain is completely another matter. An example of such discrimination would be limiting the access of homosexuals to the job market. I am not suggesting that the orthodox should be forced to socialize with homosexuals. The fact that you don't want to invite a homosexual to your home is nobody's business. On the other hand, if you refuse to hire him because of his life style, it becomes a public issue. The operation of a private or a public business, requires a permit from the government. A civilized government cannot allow discrimination against a group of people. (Today it is the gay person, tomorrow it could be you.) >The Torah tells us that homosexuality is an abomination. Anyone who >... >... In addition, while >I will not harm him, I believe that he is harming me (unlike Rich who >states that his actions are totally private and do not harm me, but then >Rich does not agree that his actions have the consequences I believe >they do). First of all, there is the harm done to the soul of the Jewish >people, second his actions delay the coming of the Meshiach (Messiah), >and third (this applies to non-Jewish homosexuals as well, but mainly in >the land of Israel) acts of abomination cause retaliation by God against >the land. Christians can use a logic similar to yours. They can say that since you as a Jew do not accept Jesus as your personal savior, you delay the second coming of Christ, thus, causing a great harm to all the inhabitants of this planet. By not accepting Jesus you may cause retaliation by God against the entire world, and not just against one country. There are segments in the Jewish orthodox community that exhibit tolerance levels that can be viewed as Khumenism Jewish style. They tend to forget a very important Jewish principle of tolerance, "Al ta'a'se l'chavercha ma she'sanu aleicha", which can be translated to, "Don't do to your friend (implying another person) what you detest" -- Yosi Hoshen, AT&T Bell Laboratories Naperville, Illinois, Mail: ihnp4!ihu1m!jho