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From: eklhad@ihnet.UUCP (K. A. Dahlke)
Newsgroups: net.origins
Subject: Sorry Dan, but I don't have my barfbags handy
Message-ID: <244@ihnet.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 1-Jul-85 11:19:57 EDT
Article-I.D.: ihnet.244
Posted: Mon Jul  1 11:19:57 1985
Date-Received: Tue, 2-Jul-85 05:27:56 EDT
Distribution: net
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Lines: 74

< 143rew2qfdsrahgzcxvb679oiuyklljmn,.  9-0p[]l;//.mo   >
	Excuse me, just wiping off the keyboard.
As mentioned earlier, I don't have my barfbags handy.
Every time I see these desperate attempts to prove creationism using 
thermodynamics, the wretching urge is uncontrollable.
I will not mention the author's name, but his initials are Dan B.
(Not the only one, but the most recent)
> [The thermo "evidence" does not merit repeating.
> We have all read it over the last couple months. ]
First he digresses into cosmology.  The beginning of the universe (big bang)
violates the first and second law; fine.
Here we can select two mistakes; Dan usually adopts both.
Fallacy #1: therefore, God must have created the universe.
Fallacy #2: therefore, God must have created all life as well.
Neither conclusion stems from rational thought.
But it gets worse!!
Though we post 1,000 articles, explaining that the Earth is an open system,
we still keep hearing the same tired arguments about
"life on Earth violates the second law".
Hey Dan, the readers of this news group are tired as well.
It is our sun (and some radioactive decay)
that pays the price.  There is nothing unusual here.
Do you really think God specifically melts each ice crystal on Earth?
After all, it *is* a local increase in entropy.
Does entropy have anything to do with life?
Probably, but the link is quite tenuous,
especially since nobody can really define life.
Every second, cells in my body are driving sodium ions against a 
concentration gradient, increasing local entropy.
Shall I attribute this to constant divine intervention?  Hardly.
ATP molecules pay the entropy price.
Each step from stellar fusion to conscious thought transfers energy,
and reduces global entropy, although some steps increase local entropy.
Apparently, too many have read creationist pamphlets on "scientific evidence",
while too few have taken thermodynamics courses.
Please keep this trash out of scientific news groups.
I can understand an innocent mistake, but these arguments have been
thoroughly refuted so often, that their continued promulgation represents
mindless religious conviction, rather than scientific investigation.
We are very interested in evidence for creationism,
but please kick the thermo habit.
It only weakens your case, and discredits you (as a scientist).

	But the article gets even worse!!
I would appreciate it if you would keep the subjective
emotionalizing down to a dull roar.
> I can't believe that a scientist
> 	    who prides himself in being rational, intelligent, and
> 	    objective can look at a world that behaves according to certain
> 	    laws of nature and mathematics, at a race of individuals who
> 	    can reason, learn, experience a myriad of emotions and argue
> 	    that all of this can just as reasonably be explained by chance.
Now there's solid evidence :-).
Got any banners (or hands) to wave?
> 	    And, in light of this, you have the gall to ask for a reason
> 	    to believe in Creation.
The nerve of us :-).
I suppose we should accept every unsubstantiated claim you make?
> Give me a real solid
> 	    concrete reason to believe that you and I are accidents and
> 	    serve no real purpose.
This really bothers you, doesn't it?
Why should we have a purpose, or reason for being here?
Why do so many articles contain so much verbiage, and so little evidence.
At any rate, I cannot debate "purpose" because it is not well defined.
I can present evidence for biological evolution,
and I (and others) have done so repeatedly.
Please get off the emotional "purpose, reason, accident" track.
153245wYtgqweasdbvzcxv7899il;hjmm  n0p[[;;l/.,n
Excuse me again,  what a mess.
Any evidence for creationism?  We are still waiting.
-- 
Is it time to go home yet?
Karl Dahlke    ihnp4!ihnet!eklhad