Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site rtech.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!bonnie!akgua!mcnc!philabs!cmcl2!seismo!umcp-cs!gymble!lll-crg!dual!unisoft!mtxinu!rtech!jeff From: jeff@rtech.UUCP (Jeff Lichtman) Newsgroups: net.women,net.flame Subject: Re: Women/men and the consumption of toilet paper Message-ID: <503@rtech.UUCP> Date: Fri, 21-Jun-85 03:25:16 EDT Article-I.D.: rtech.503 Posted: Fri Jun 21 03:25:16 1985 Date-Received: Sat, 29-Jun-85 23:56:16 EDT References: <464@ttidcc.UUCP> <465@gitpyr.UUCP> Organization: Relational Technology, Alameda CA Lines: 61 Xref: watmath net.women:6153 net.flame:10879 > > Well, maybe you ought to try wearing the shoe for a little while before > you condemn it. Maybe you ought to try understanding what it's like > to have your gonads poke you in the ribs and say "Hey! Check out the > babe over there, she isn't wearing a bra! Very nice." before you > insist on your right to let it all hang out and then blame what happens > next on the man. It takes two to tango, and none of us are mind-readers. > Perhaps if we all treated each other as people with strengths AND > weaknesses (instead of I've got all the weaknesses and you've got all > the strength) we could reach a common understanding. > > Roy J. Mongiovi. Office of Computing Services. User Services. I can only assume that by "what happens next," you mean rape. I assume this because the connection between rape and clothing has been a heated topic of conversation here for quite a while. If this is what you mean, then I strongly disagree with you. If a woman is raped, it is not her fault, regardless of what she looks like, what she wears, or how she acts. A woman should be able to walk naked down Main Street without being raped. Too many men believe that their sex drive absolves them from responsibility. You have probably heard the expression, "a stiff prick has no conscience". I say that the conscience is usually in another part of the body, and that sexual excitement is no excuse for violence. The above assumes that rape is motivated by sexual excitement. I know that in many cases of rape, sex is not the primary factor. However, Mr. Mongiovi was implying that sexual excitement could justify rape, and I felt that it was worthwhile arguing against the moral side of his statements as opposed to the objective factual side. What I have said about rape goes for less violent behavior. Some men feel that, if they think a woman is sexy, they have the right to come on to her in all sorts of obnoxious ways, and persistently at that. And the more scantily the woman is dressed, the more obvious it is to them that she wants their attention. Such men think they have the right to make suggestive, lewd comments, to grab "feels", to follow the woman down the street, all because she looks sexy to them. You have to realize that women are in a double bind. They are expected to make themselves physically attractive (within narrowly defined societal standards), and end up objects of scorn if they don't. I have heard both men and women make nasty comments about women who don't do enough to "look good". But if a woman makes herself look too good, then some men take this as a signal that she is "open for business", and won't take no for an answer. If she makes the "no" strong enough, then she becomes a "bitch", "prick-tease", or "ball buster". And usually, the men who assume that they have rights to any woman who looks good to them are the same ones who despise women whom they think don't do enough to make themselves sexy. It's true that not all men act like this, but enough of them do to make many women fearful and apprehensive of all men. Mr. Mongiovi, I suggest that you follow your own advice, and wear the woman's shoe for a while. -- Jeff Lichtman at rtech (Relational Technology, Inc.) aka Swazoo Koolak {amdahl, sun}!rtech!jeff {ucbvax, decvax}!mtxinu!rtech!jeff