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From: gth@erc3ba.UUCP (A.Y.Feldblum)
Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish
Subject: Re: Clarification indeed!
Message-ID: <143@erc3ba.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 1-Jul-85 13:04:09 EDT
Article-I.D.: erc3ba.143
Posted: Mon Jul  1 13:04:09 1985
Date-Received: Wed, 3-Jul-85 07:36:39 EDT
References: <277@ucdavis.UUCP> <329@mhuxi.UUCP> <611@sfmag.UUCP> <612@sfmag.UUCP> <1137@pyuxd.UUCP> <481@ihu1m.UUCP>
Organization: AT&T Engineering Research Center   Princeton, NJ
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(references follow at bottom)

While I cannot say what Samat's response to Hasan is, I will add my own. 
The Torah viewpoint on homosexuality remains the same, then (whenever
then is) and now. However, it is important to understand that when one
says that homosexuality is punishable by death, it does not mean that
simply anyone can go over to a person who is homosexual and kill him.
Punishment by death can only be ordered by a Bet Din (court) of 23 duly
appointed judges, sitting in a time that the Sanhedrin (High Court of 71
judges) is in existence and located on the Temple grounds. Thus the
possibility of actually carrying out such a penalty today is
non-existant. Even during a period when the courts were in existence, in
order for the death penalty to be imposed, the people involved would
have to perform a punishable act before two witnesses who must inform
them immediatly prior to such performance that the act they are about to
do is prohibited by the Torah and that if they do perform it, they will
be subject to the death penalty. 

Thus, I do not think that Orthodox Judaism and the Torah represent any
physical danger to the USA homosexual population. This is quite
different fron Nazism, which several posters in this discussion have
tried to equate to the Torah viewpoint on various issues. A related
point is my attitude and the Orthodox Jewish community's attitude
(although there is no "single" "Orthodox Jewish community") toward
people who proclaim themselves to be homosexual. While the following
definition is purely arbitrary, I consider it to be reasonable. The
Orthodox Jewish community is that subset of the Jewish people who strive
to live their lives in accordance with the path defined by the Torah.
The Torah tells us that homosexuality is an abomination. Anyone who
wishes to make what the Torah views as an abomination an integral part
of their lives, cannot in my view be considered part of the Orthodox
Jewish community. In addition it is my right to try to have nothing to
do with such a person. I do not claim that anyone should kill such a
person. In my view, if he is Jewish he is throwing away his soul's entry
into the World To Come. I grieve for him, for every soul is precious and
part of the greater soul of the entire Jewish people. In addition, while
I will not harm him, I believe that he is harming me (unlike Rich who
states that his actions are totally private and do not harm me, but then
Rich does not agree that his actions have the consequences I believe
they do). First of all, there is the harm done to the soul of the Jewish
people, second his actions delay the coming of the Meshiach (Messiah),
and third (this applies to nonjewish homosexuals as well, but mainly in
the land of Israel) acts of abomination cause retaliation by God against
the land. I, and many other Orthodox Jews that I know, will do what we
can to prevent homosexuality from being accepted within the Jewish
community, but I am not a physical threat to any homosexual, nor do I
believe that the Orthodox Jewish community is a physical threat to any
homosexual.

Avi Feldblum
AT&T Tech.
uucp: {allegra, ihnp4}!pruxa!ayf


>>     (Samet)
> >    1) The sin of male homosexuality is punishable by death  by skila
> >    (stoning).  Of  the  4  methods   of execution, skila is the most
> >    severe.  The only other sexual offenses punishable by  skila  are
> >    certain  types  of  incest, and  having  sex  with  an animal. By
> >    contrast, adultery is punishable by lesser forms of execution.
> 
> Samet tells us what the Torah view of homosexuality.  The question is:
> Is it Samet's wiew that homosexuals should be treated nowadays according
> to the Torah?  
> 
> If is answer is yes then I would have to agree with Rich on the issue.
> -- 
> Yosi Hoshen