Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site kontron.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxj!mhuxn!ihnp4!pesnta!pertec!kontron!cramer From: cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) Newsgroups: net.politics.theory Subject: Re: Explorations of "social-interest": Democracy-bashing:Re to JoSH Message-ID: <291@kontron.UUCP> Date: Thu, 27-Jun-85 17:03:03 EDT Article-I.D.: kontron.291 Posted: Thu Jun 27 17:03:03 1985 Date-Received: Sat, 29-Jun-85 03:31:22 EDT References: <298@spar.UUCP> <2380037@acf4.UUCP> <657@whuxl.UUCP> <2325@topaz.ARPA> <662@whuxl.UUCP> Organization: Kontron Electronics, Irvine, CA Lines: 47 > The abhorrence to democracy of most Libertarians is made explicit here by > JoSH. All will be solved by the "market" and competition. > Yet I would contend that this is precisely what we wish to *avoid*. > Let us take "competition" in traffic, to continue my mundane example of > social interaction. Essentially that is to some degree the system that > prevails in New Jersey - people go for their own self-interests with > little regulation of competition. I have seen a number of people go > right through a red light, after sitting stopped for it for at least > a minute. It was not then a case of having momentum and failing to stop, > but sheer disregard for the law and *others* in pursuit of their > own self-interest. In such a competitive situation those who win out > will be those with the biggest cars and those with the least qualms about > hurting their own car or *others*. Those who wish to consider others > rights will be left behind as well as those with special care for their > passengers such as those with children in the car. > A *democracy* ruled by law implies the opposite situation. > All will be treated equally by the law *regardless* of the size of their > car, their racing prowess, or their reckless disregard for others > safety. Such regulations not only protect *everyone* but also, > in fact, allow faster traffic than rampant and unregulated competition. > > > tim sevener whuxl!orb If traffic in New Jersey is libertarian in nature, it's the only thing about New Jersey that is. Seriously, my experience is that in the absence of operating traffic signals, and where the right of way is not clear, most people drive *very* cautiously, because they desire to avoid accidents in which they will be injured, or at a minimum, their car will be damaged. Perhaps New Jersey's problem is too many years of governmental control --- I refuse to believe that any significant chunk of the population of New Jersey is so completely incapable of thinking far enough ahead to avoid a potentially dangerous accident. Are there that many morons in New Jersey? This represents the most significant difference between the libertarian and leftist perception of "the masses". Libertarians maintain that most people are capable of making rational decisions in their *own* interest, or at least, better than the collective can do. We assume that most people, even if not well-educated, are at least rational most of the time, and are not actively seeking to damage themselves. The left seems to view individuals as hardly smarter than livestock, incapable of making decisions for themselves, so that they must turn over almost all decision making to an elected body of representatives who are presumably smarter and more rational.