Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/17/84; site erc3ba.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!bonnie!akgua!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!mhuxn!mhuxm!mhuxi!erc3ba!gth From: gth@erc3ba.UUCP (A.Y.Feldblum) Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish Subject: Re: Clarification indeed! Message-ID: <143@erc3ba.UUCP> Date: Mon, 1-Jul-85 13:04:09 EDT Article-I.D.: erc3ba.143 Posted: Mon Jul 1 13:04:09 1985 Date-Received: Wed, 3-Jul-85 07:36:39 EDT References: <277@ucdavis.UUCP> <329@mhuxi.UUCP> <611@sfmag.UUCP> <612@sfmag.UUCP> <1137@pyuxd.UUCP> <481@ihu1m.UUCP> Organization: AT&T Engineering Research Center Princeton, NJ Lines: 68 (references follow at bottom) While I cannot say what Samat's response to Hasan is, I will add my own. The Torah viewpoint on homosexuality remains the same, then (whenever then is) and now. However, it is important to understand that when one says that homosexuality is punishable by death, it does not mean that simply anyone can go over to a person who is homosexual and kill him. Punishment by death can only be ordered by a Bet Din (court) of 23 duly appointed judges, sitting in a time that the Sanhedrin (High Court of 71 judges) is in existence and located on the Temple grounds. Thus the possibility of actually carrying out such a penalty today is non-existant. Even during a period when the courts were in existence, in order for the death penalty to be imposed, the people involved would have to perform a punishable act before two witnesses who must inform them immediatly prior to such performance that the act they are about to do is prohibited by the Torah and that if they do perform it, they will be subject to the death penalty. Thus, I do not think that Orthodox Judaism and the Torah represent any physical danger to the USA homosexual population. This is quite different fron Nazism, which several posters in this discussion have tried to equate to the Torah viewpoint on various issues. A related point is my attitude and the Orthodox Jewish community's attitude (although there is no "single" "Orthodox Jewish community") toward people who proclaim themselves to be homosexual. While the following definition is purely arbitrary, I consider it to be reasonable. The Orthodox Jewish community is that subset of the Jewish people who strive to live their lives in accordance with the path defined by the Torah. The Torah tells us that homosexuality is an abomination. Anyone who wishes to make what the Torah views as an abomination an integral part of their lives, cannot in my view be considered part of the Orthodox Jewish community. In addition it is my right to try to have nothing to do with such a person. I do not claim that anyone should kill such a person. In my view, if he is Jewish he is throwing away his soul's entry into the World To Come. I grieve for him, for every soul is precious and part of the greater soul of the entire Jewish people. In addition, while I will not harm him, I believe that he is harming me (unlike Rich who states that his actions are totally private and do not harm me, but then Rich does not agree that his actions have the consequences I believe they do). First of all, there is the harm done to the soul of the Jewish people, second his actions delay the coming of the Meshiach (Messiah), and third (this applies to nonjewish homosexuals as well, but mainly in the land of Israel) acts of abomination cause retaliation by God against the land. I, and many other Orthodox Jews that I know, will do what we can to prevent homosexuality from being accepted within the Jewish community, but I am not a physical threat to any homosexual, nor do I believe that the Orthodox Jewish community is a physical threat to any homosexual. Avi Feldblum AT&T Tech. uucp: {allegra, ihnp4}!pruxa!ayf >> (Samet) > > 1) The sin of male homosexuality is punishable by death by skila > > (stoning). Of the 4 methods of execution, skila is the most > > severe. The only other sexual offenses punishable by skila are > > certain types of incest, and having sex with an animal. By > > contrast, adultery is punishable by lesser forms of execution. > > Samet tells us what the Torah view of homosexuality. The question is: > Is it Samet's wiew that homosexuals should be treated nowadays according > to the Torah? > > If is answer is yes then I would have to agree with Rich on the issue. > -- > Yosi Hoshen