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From: 6243jae@whuts.UUCP (ELKINS)
Newsgroups: net.music
Subject: Re: Phil Collins sucks
Message-ID: <170@whuts.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 16-Jul-85 14:03:46 EDT
Article-I.D.: whuts.170
Posted: Tue Jul 16 14:03:46 1985
Date-Received: Thu, 18-Jul-85 04:35:44 EDT
Distribution: net.music
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Lines: 105

> ray charles, perhaps??  i see! if you are popular, then (by some strange
> definition) you can't be talented.  i realize i'm not supposed to
> be so "personal" and "attack," but the hypocrisy being displayed by
> doug all the time borders on (ok, i'll be honest, it IS) ridiculous.
> 
> doug, is there one area (muscially) where you can top ray charles?  (god, i
> can feel the flames, and i feel stupid for asking this type of
> question, but i'm driving at a point here, hang on!)  can you
> out play him?  out perform him? please an audience more?  be more creative?
> (and do it with your eyes shut?? :-)
> 
> doug, have you no appreciation for what an artist does?  i spent 12 years
> behind a saxophone (and a few behind a piano & flute).  after 12 years
> of playing all that high school stuff & jazz band & major marching college
> band & just goofing around, i learned a few things.  i was a good sax
> player, but far from great.  FAR!  even the "worst" of professional recording
> sax players (honest to god make their living off playing) could out-play 
> me.  so i can look at john klemmer and say "gheeez.  what a schmoe.  grover
> washington jr. would have to teach him to hold the horn before giving him
> his first lesson," but i don't.  because i know what it takes to play
> a sax.  just because i like g.w.jr over klemmer doesn't mean klemmer
> sucks sax.  he is still a *very* talented musician.  try picking up
> a sax and playing along with one of his albums.  i used to.
> 
> all of those people at USA_for_Africa ARE talented.  i don't listen
> to half of them, but i realize they are talented.  they wouldn't be
> there if they weren't.  no, madonna is not my idol.  but she can kinda' sorta'
> sing (in her own way) and she makes what many consider sexy videos,
> and if you ever get out in the real world doug and are at a hoppin'
> dance bar, you'll realize she doesn't make music to sit and contemplate,
> she makes music to *M*O*V*E* to.  there is some talent there.  if being
> a top-40 queen were as easy as you make it, how come those 103,231 other 
> madonna look-a-likes didn't make it?  you don't just stand up and
> say "i wanna' be a video queen."
> 
> lighten up, doug.  don't be some damn critical of top-40.  it's not
> the best, but it has its purpose.  ever listen to a song just because
> it has cute lyrics and makes you think of your girlfriend -- brings a big
> smile to your face?  ever like a song because you can't HELP but dance to it?
> could YOU write or produce or sing on or play on or edit or do just about
> anything on a top-40 album??  i doubt it.  and even if maybe you could
> you'd have to beat out the 543,201 others trying for the same spot.  don't 
> even consider a hot jazz album or other more "talented" areas.  now
> call up lionel richie and apologize right now.
> 
The issue of talent among "Top 40" musicians is an old sore
spot among homespun musicologists. Ron, I think you missed
out on some of the important issues in your musical upbringing
regarding success. Success in the recording industry is
reliant upon a number of ingredients. The part of this
success that involves musical skill is probably 20% or so, 
and the rest of the ingredients include luck, originality
(not necessarily involving musical innovativeness) of
material, stage prescence and studio-savvy.

I'm not discounting the years of sax playing you did in your
evaluation of talent in musicians, but if you had seen some
of the unsuccessful musicians I have you would wonder why
the talent has so little to do with the ability of someone
to sell a "Top 40" record. I have seen people who can play
absolutely phenomenal things on their instrument or with
voice, who end up teaching kindergarteners to play scales,
and conversely I've seen where a relatively useless musician
("a dime a dozen.....") like Herb Alpert (voted the least likely
to succeed by the horn section he used to play in) makes it
REALLY BIG because he can cater to the listening taste of
a whole lot of people. If success in muzak is what has you
classing all successful musicians together as a talented
bunch, you ought to go out there and play that sax. Play
the simplest thing you know and play it well, and someone
will say, "God, that guy can play!"

I was brought up in the recording industry. My parents
had a studio where I used to shoot rubber bands at
Bobby Darin  and Frankie Avalon from the sound boom
control. I went to music school when I got out of high
school, and some of the people I took classes with
are in groups like Chicago, New York Philharmonic,
Chicago Symphony Orchestra, Skyline (only mentioned
because I like them), and lots of others, but there
are a lot of people who I watched become wealthy as
"musicians" even though they could barely play an
instrument (I'm sorry, but Bob Dylan is among them,
because he is a brilliant lyricist with no regard for
the musical quality of his own playing and singing).
After a taste of touring with some groups and doing
some studio work I detested the recording industry,
and for that matter the music industry with it. The
field I had chosen was too corrupt and devoid of taste
to remain in, so here I am, a has-been (and damned
proud of it, too).

You see, the problem is that talent is not everything.
All top 40'ers don't have it. Among the top 40 people
of today, few of them are highly skilled musicians,
and few of them can play anything but the stuff they
have created themselves (did you see the miserable
performance that Dylan's accompanists did in Live
Aid? Those guys are big, too!). Take it from a fairly
reliable source. 

				Jay Elkins
				hou2g!whuts!6243jae

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