Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.3 alpha 4/15/85; site fear.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!bonnie!akgua!whuxlm!harpo!decvax!decwrl!greipa!pesnta!amd!amdcad!cae780!weitek!fear!robert From: robert@fear.UUCP (Robert Plamondon) Newsgroups: net.women Subject: Re: Discrimination and AA Message-ID: <215@fear.UUCP> Date: Mon, 1-Jul-85 20:02:56 EDT Article-I.D.: fear.215 Posted: Mon Jul 1 20:02:56 1985 Date-Received: Fri, 12-Jul-85 01:20:24 EDT References: <483@gargoyle.UChicago.UUCP>, <189@fear.UUCP> <364@mhuxr.UUCP> Organization: Weitek Corp. Sunnyvale Ca. Lines: 138 Preface: This is a long set of excerpts from my original posting and Marcel Simon's responses to it. I've added my own counter-arguments below, but there are a couple of points that should be made first: 1. It looks to me like Marcel believes that the only solution to the problem of discriminatory hiring against women is a bureaucratic one. I believe that an Affirmative Action bureaucracy isn't going to be effective, for the following reasons: a) Employers can be divided into three categories: Those who aren't bigots, those who strongly biased, and those who are weakly biased. Only those in the last category are going to change their hiring practices due to AA buraucracy -- those who aren't biased don't need the incentive, and those who are strongly biased will fight, weasel, and cheat. b) Bureaucratic solutions devolve into schemes that are easy to gather statistics on. In hiring practices, this usually means that, regardless of the intentions of the people who supported and drafted the legislation, it all comes down to tokenism in the end. c) Regulatory agencies seem to be drawn inevitably into the camp of those they regulate. After all, they have money, experience, and more money. d) Don't forget that the government itself was the cause of much of the trouble: racist and sexist legislation, bullshit paternalistic laws, ad nauseam. 2. Marcel seems to believe that bigots make up such an overwhelming majority of the employers that no one has any hope without a bureaucratic rescue. I believe that this is wildly wrong. If it were true, I wouldn't hold out much hope, since the government itself would ALSO be overwhelmingly stocked with bigots, giving fair enforcement no chance at all. 3. Marcel fails to draw the distinction between equal rights legislation (which make the legal rights of all individuals the same), and bureaucratic solutions (which involve lots of regulators running around telling people what they can and cannot do). I support equal rights for everybody. 4. Marcel trusts our government. You know -- Viet Nam, Watergate, Bay of Pigs, Prohibition, McCarthy's witch hunts -- *THAT* government. I think that the issues of minority hiring and the earnings gap are too complex for the government to handle well. On to the debate: Robert: > > I suggest the government do NOTHING about it, since its competence, > > sincerity, and immunity to the influence of the people it "regulates" > > are all suspect. Marcel Simon: > Under your system, women would not have the right to vote, and we would > still be under segragated public transportation, schools, etc. Robert again: Not at all! I support equal rights through equal rights legislation and court actions, but I oppose *BUREAUCRACIES* that try to regulate employment practices and attitudes. and again: > > I suggest that individuals can have a strong effect without invoking > > the government -- refuse to work for bigots. Refuse to buy from > > bigots. Don't associate with them. Marcel Simon: > If bigots are favored by the system, and government should do nothing about > the system, you are giving bigots quite an advantage in the competition for > jobs, advancement and power. Suggesting that those who are discriminated > against or those who disapprove of discrimination should go away > and leave the field to bigots strikes me as curious. Me again: The government is the tool of the status quo. Even if legislation is passed to change the status quo, the bureaucracy usually ends up in the pocket of the people it's supposed to be regulating. and again: > > If you can't seem to find any non-bigots, you're probably living in > > the wrong place. Pull up stakes and move to a more enlightened > > neigborhood. Marcel: > WHat if the "neighborhood" is the entire country? WHere should we move to? > And why should people be forced to leave the location they choose to live > in just because some bigot also decides to live there? Robert: But it ISN'T the whole country, or the fight for equal rights would be hopeless! > > Don't wait for the government to come up with a magic wand to make > > everything better. They'll never find one. All they have is > > bureaucracy and taxpayers' money. People have to live their own > > lives as best they can, in a world that will always be screwed up, > > one way or another. > > -- Robert Plamondon Marcel: > If I understand you correctly, the world is discriminatory, and the bigots > are in power, and the rest of us should suffer in silence, because > "that's the way it is" I will not comment on it, because I fear I would lapse > into incoherent anger. If I misunderstood you, please clarify. > > Marcel Simon And, of course, I'll give myself the last word: The world is screwed up. It always has been. *BUT*, that doesn't mean that you should either: a) hang yourself from the nearest tree, or b) become totally cynical, or c) pin all your hopes on a white knight that will come to the rescue. Even if everything goes perfectly, the problems we're talking about in net.women won't disappear entirely, since bigotry and ignorance are very, very stubborn. And we all know that things aren't going to go perfectly. So, what do we do in this interval between Chaos and Utopia? We do what we can to make things better, and live our lives as best we can. It's not a flashy attitude, and doing little things to make life better for ourselves and those around us doesn't have the macho appeal of laws and courts and guns. But people who just sit around waiting for the revolution to come aren't doing anyone any good, least of all themselves. -- -- Robert Plamondon {turtlevax, resonex, cae780}!weitek!robert