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From: cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: net.women
Subject: Re: Discrimination and Affirmative Action
Message-ID: <261@kontron.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 24-Jun-85 12:17:32 EDT
Article-I.D.: kontron.261
Posted: Mon Jun 24 12:17:32 1985
Date-Received: Wed, 26-Jun-85 05:43:29 EDT
References:  <338@unc.UUCP> <337@mhuxr.UUCP> <219@kontron.UUCP> <344@mhuxr.UUCP> <247@kontron.UUCP> <357@mhuxr.UUCP>
Organization: Kontron Electronics, Irvine, CA
Lines: 59

> > For reasons that have a lot to do with governmental discrimination in
> > schooling, and somewhat to do with social tendencies towards racism, there
> > is frequently a shortage of *qualified* female or black engineers.  I 
> > am sure that this problem will go away over the next few years.  Nonetheless,
> > it seems reasonable to me that an employer would, if they needed to hire
> > a minority or female engineer, would hire the best that they could find.
> > The alternative is to believe that the racism is *so* widespread that 
> > employers can afford to hire unqualified workers without fear that their
> > competitors (admittedly, few and far between in aerospace) will hire
> > qualified minority or female engineers.  I know few people who are that
> > racist.
> > 
> I have difficulty with believing that racism and sexism will "get better"
> without vigorous action, with government leading the way. We have heard that
> repeatedly throughout the century ('don't make waves, thigs will get better"
> sometime, always just after my life expectancy)
> 
Things *have* dramatically improved, mostly since the 1950s, and because 
the attitudes of many people in our society changed --- not because the
government started trying to force a change in the late 1960s and early
1970s.  I can see a dramatic reduction in racism just since 1962, when my
earliest memories of racism start.  I suspect that the belief that government
must intervene are reflective of your faith in government's power, rather
than a rational evaluation of recent social history in this country.

> > Saying that a company isn't "required" to implement affirmative action
> > is rather like saying, "Blacks weren't *required* to ride in the back of
> > the bus --- they could have walked."  When the government is redistributing
> > wealth from taxpayers to government contractors, it is reasonable, just,
> > and essential, to require that those contractors give everyone a fair shot
> > at employment, regardless of race or sex --- affirmative action is not a
> > fair shot.
> > 
> And given past history, it is "reasonable, just  and essential" to
> require that they demonstrate that they have given everyone a fair shot.
> 
Fair shot = everyone gets an equal chance to apply for a job --- that's not
the same as affirmative action.

> > I had to drop out of college do to funding problems; I did not graduate;
> > fortunately, college is only necessary for a good job in software if you
> > lack character or intelligence.  (Then, a degree is essential.)
> 
> You did have a tough road to travel. Consider, however, the chances of a woman
> or a black with no degree, compared to yours (I am assuming you are a
> white male; correct me if you are not) I am inclined to say they
> would have had a tougher time of finding a job. We can never know for sure,
> however.
> 
> Marcel Simon

At least in California, they would have had only slightly harder of a time
than I had --- perhaps back East, where the governments are further left,
(and the population more racist) a minority in the same position would have
had a much tougher time.  

(For those wondering about my comments above (which are out of context), my 
comments about my own situtation were originally in the context of 
discussing apparent racism in scholarships.)