Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.3 alpha 4/15/85; site ubvax.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!bonnie!akgua!whuxlm!harpo!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!timeinc!phri!pesnta!amd!amdcad!cae780!ubvax!tonyw From: tonyw@ubvax.UUCP (Tony Wuersch) Newsgroups: net.politics.theory Subject: Re: What is "capitalism"? Message-ID: <230@ubvax.UUCP> Date: Mon, 24-Jun-85 22:10:30 EDT Article-I.D.: ubvax.230 Posted: Mon Jun 24 22:10:30 1985 Date-Received: Mon, 1-Jul-85 06:05:30 EDT References: <2876@sdcc3.UUCP> <2380026@acf4.UUCP> <197@ubvax.UUCP> <72@denelvx.UUCP> Organization: Ungermann-Bass, Inc., Santa Clara, CA Lines: 53 In article <72@denelvx.UUCP>, neal@denelvx.UUCP (Neal Weidenhofer) writes: > ****************************************************************************** > > > > What does "arrogance and presumption" have to do with TRUTH? Certainly > > people who don't know others and make critical suggestions are arrogant by > > assumption, because they're too uninformed to hit the mark enough. They > > arrogate knowledge to themselves which they don't have. > > > > But people who do know others and criticize based on that knowledge often > > do others a service. And if they are wrong, they get feedback to that > > effect and learn thereby. > > > > Tony Wuersch > > Speaking of "strawmen"!!! No one is talking about criticizing--the > subject of discussion that I recall was (heavily paraphrased) forcing people > to do "what's good for them". If you merely criticize, I can at least > ignore your arrogance; if you (as the government) tell me that I will > contribute to social security for my own good or risk going to prison, > that's quite another matter. Tony wasn't responding to a strawman. He was responding to Mike Sykora's blanket statement about criticism in general which Mike wanted to use to indict governments in particular. But the blanket statement, about the arrogance of giving advice as to what is "best" for people, was directed at anyone giving advice, not just governments. In a response to Tony's response, Mike rephrased his blanket statement in a more reasonable way and apologized for his initial broad brush. So Tony's response was appropriate. > (Second point): Who gave you an inside track on "TRUTH"? If my > concern is "what's good for me" and I'm wrong, noone is damaaged but myself > (and a few people close to me). If my concern is "what's good for > everybody" and I have the right ("power" if you prefer) to enforce my > conclusions, then everybody is hurt if I am wrong. There are good laws against people who do what's "good" for themselves and damage others. Each person's life and experiences gives them an inside track to some truths and not to others. Some of those truths can be about other people. Most people don't see giving and taking advice as coercion or submission to same. > (Third point): What makes you think that the average government > official has any interest in learning anything from the feedback? The history of political movements. Hope this helps. Tony Wuersch {amd,amdcad}!cae780!ubvax!tonyw