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Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!cbosgd!ihnp4!ihlpl!zubbie
From: zubbie@ihlpl.UUCP (Jeanette Zobjeck)
Newsgroups: net.women
Subject: RE:Last Nite ( a LONG) letter to men
Message-ID: <177@ihlpl.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 25-Jun-85 14:37:01 EDT
Article-I.D.: ihlpl.177
Posted: Tue Jun 25 14:37:01 1985
Date-Received: Wed, 26-Jun-85 07:26:06 EDT
References: <569@usl.UUCP>
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Lines: 115

> 
> My feeling  is that 1),  positive reinforcement is  highly preferable
> to intensely negative strokes,  2) name calling  should  be saved  for
> net.flame  and avoided in   serious  discussions  between   supposedly
> intelligent  persons, 3) it  is insulting to  think that other  people
> (me in this  case)  must be  viciously treated  in order for  them to
> consider  some issue, and  finally   4), if Jeanette's  hostility  was
> merely a device, as she says, well, I think it's really  a bad idea to
> lay such an attack on someone unless one really mean it.
> 
> I think Jeanette's  attitude is wrong  and preclusive to  her espoused
> cause.

OK, My intent stands - I want men and women to rethink their attitudes on
the "women's place"
I have to admit that I was probably more caustic then I needed to be - 
I get wound up and engage my keyboard before engaging my brain fully
to wit I owe some people an apology. Since I may not be aware of 
all I'll make it here.
I am not backing off on my opinion but I do admit that my approach was
stronger and less amenable (sp) to acceptance than it could have been.


> 
> > The truth is there and you can feel it but you never thought about it that
> > way before.
> 
> It seems to me quite condescending to  assume that someone would never
> think of something unless it was pointed out to them.

The operative word is  WAY not meaning that it was an idea /concept which 
had not been noticed and given due thought but simply that perhaps the view-
point needed to be different. 

Each of the 3 blind men saw an elephant differently - only a sighted person
could tell that all 3 were correct ** as far as they went**. The 
same generic applies here.


> 
> 
> > Perhaps the hardest thing in the world to do on this net or via
> > a keyboard is to convey the depth of emotion which women must deal with 
> > which has no male analog. 
> 
> This is  bullshit of the most sexist  nature.  I  cannot  believe that
> women possess deeper emotions than men.
> 

I didnt say women have deeper emotions then men only different ie no 
male analog. I have never said nor implied that men do not have emotions
and very powerful ones at that only that by natural difference there are
emotional areas which are different for each and that it was very 
hard to convey these via the net. I do imply that the same set of difficulties
pertains to men and men's emotions as well.


> Perhaps the single most annoying part of Jeanette's article is
> excerpted here:
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
> Now it seems, from my vantage point, that Jeanette is suggesting  that
> I would rape a friend  in Ellen Eade's   position.   I think  this  is
> *MOST* revolting.  It is  hard for me   to imagine that  this  is just
> another device to get me to think about the issue.

No, I'm not suggesting that you would do such a thing (other men have but 
even that is not the issue here) What I am suggesting is that society as a 
whole presents very little compassion for the victim which leads to several
very bad ends:


	1) The woman presses charges, goes to trial and public
	opinion both supports her on the one hand and implies
	tacitly that perhaps she did bring the episode on herself.

	2) The woman refuses to go to court out of fear or something
	inside her and then she has to reconcile that feeling of fear
	of a return of the attacker and public sentiment that maybe
	she really wasn't raped at all - After all in practically
	any other crime the victim has all the laws and rules on their
	side why not prosecute. All to often with rape the victim 
	simply can not face the strain of a trial,

> 
> > I consider the day a total waste less I catch hell from someone.
> 
> I find this   a pretty shitty   attitude,  but what's  worse is   that
> Jeanette  is  apparently willing to  assume  that  everyone else feels
> that way.

Perhaps it is only shitty because only part of the concept is quoted here.
the rest of it goes something like this:

There is no reason to bother to pay any attention to the efforts of
someone you care nothing about, unless your the boss person. If someone takes
the trouble to correct me or even get upset with me it must be because
they see something of value being wasted in me and by me. Than I have 
a chance to change and hopefully improve myself or at least to evaluate myself
and my position to see if change is warranted.

Thanks for caring and helping me learn more about myself as others see me.
> 
Here's my answer Joe. I'm not the  "obscurant " person you  think I am
and hopefully someday I will learn to temper my toungue. I get mad
like anyone else, I just happen to be more vocal than most.



jeanette l. zobjeck
ihnp4!ihlpl!zubbie