Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site kontron.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxt!houxm!mtuxo!mtunh!mtung!mtunf!ariel!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!tektronix!hplabs!pesnta!pertec!kontron!cramer From: cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) Newsgroups: net.politics.theory Subject: Re: Libertarians in Space Message-ID: <344@kontron.UUCP> Date: Mon, 8-Jul-85 18:26:17 EDT Article-I.D.: kontron.344 Posted: Mon Jul 8 18:26:17 1985 Date-Received: Sat, 13-Jul-85 11:19:02 EDT References: <446@qantel.UUCP> <454@qantel.UUCP> <293@kontron.UUCP> <377@spar.UUCP> <322@kontron.UUCP> <384@spar.UUCP> Organization: Kontron Electronics, Irvine, CA Lines: 71 > >>>There are many motivations besides self-interest and greed --- but there > >>>are no so certain (sic) to be present in almost all people, almost all the > >>>time. The socialists assume that most people will look out for the interests > >>>of the society as a whole; libertarians assume that most people will > >>>look out for their own interests. > >>> > >>> Clayton Cramer > >> > >> Not quite. The socialists assume that people will *not* look out > >> for the interests of society as a whole, exactly what you ascribe to > >> the libertarian position. The difference is that the socialists assume > >> that the interests of society as a whole *should* be looked after, and > >> since they think no one else will, they rightly or wrongly expect > >> government to do so. > >> > >> Baba ROM DOS > > > > The non-competitive environment of a socialist system creates tremendous > > opportunities for fraud and corruption, since a state-owned enterprise > > is in no danger of going bankrupt. Socialists have long assumed that > > under the influence of socialism, man will become less corrupt. The > > Soviet Union, for example, talks a lot about creating a "True Socialist > > Man", who is concerned first for the society, and secondarily for himself, > > because they recognize that individual self-interest makes their whole > > system collapse in corruption and bribery. > > > > Clayton Cramer > > This is a non-rebuttal. Even if the Soviet Union were a universally > accepted paradigm of socialism, if socialists feel that "most people > will look out for the interests of society as a whole", as you stated in > your earlier posting excerpted above, why would they need to create a > "True Socialist Man"? Wouldn't they already have one? Why would they > worry about the effects of individual self-interest on their system? > Why would they see a need to coerce anyone? > > Baba Good point. Let me clarify. The Soviet Union (and a lot of other socialists, including the ones who find the Soviet Union embarrassing) maintain that the capitalist system has created self-interested individuals, rather than a True Socialist Man. They believe that by creating a society in which self-interest in not rewarded, that people will become less self-interested, and more collective-interested. While they acknowledge that there still people with "bourgeois" & "decadent" attitudes, they believe that progress is being made towards this ideal, in much the same way that they assert that the Soviet Union is a socialist society striving to become a communist society. When it becomes communist (and everyone is collective-interested, rather than self-interested) the government will wither away, because it will be unnecessary. This might be a plausible line of reasoning, except that self-interest is the result of a couple billion years of evolution, which has fostered self-interest (or at least clan-interest) rather than collective interest. Consider a chimpanzee. If the chimpanzee carries genes that encourage behavior in the interest of the species, this will further the species. If that same behavior is detrimental to the interests of the individual chimpanzee, and it has no offspring, that behavior (if genetic) will not be passed on. Clearly, collective-interest will be selected against, unless all members of the species benefit each other more by that behavior than individuals benefit by *not* having that behavior. In the long run, the species will be selected for collective-interest only if self-interest does not conflict. If the Soviet Union still prevented self-interested people from reproducing in the manner that was done in the 1920s and 1930s (i.e. de-kulakization), the goal of the True Socialist Man might be achieved in another 40,000 generations. In fact, the current arrangement they have doesn't even do this, and their goal of the True Socialist Man is doomed to failure.