Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site kontron.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!bonnie!akgua!whuxlm!whuxl!houxm!ihnp4!pesnta!pertec!kontron!cramer From: cramer@kontron.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) Newsgroups: net.politics.theory Subject: Re: Libertarians in Space Message-ID: <322@kontron.UUCP> Date: Wed, 3-Jul-85 14:45:17 EDT Article-I.D.: kontron.322 Posted: Wed Jul 3 14:45:17 1985 Date-Received: Fri, 5-Jul-85 07:29:42 EDT References: <446@qantel.UUCP> <454@qantel.UUCP> <293@kontron.UUCP> <377@spar.UUCP> Organization: Kontron Electronics, Irvine, CA Lines: 49 > > There are many motivations besides self-interest and greed --- but there > > are no so certain (sic) to be present in almost all people, almost all the > > time. The socialists assume that most people will look out for the interests > > of the society as a whole; libertarians assume that most people will > > look out for their own interests. > > > > Clayton Cramer > > Not quite. The socialists assume that people will *not* look out > for the interests of society as a whole, exactly what you ascribe to > the libertarian position. The difference is that the socialists assume > that the interests of society as a whole *should* be looked after, and > since they think no one else will, they rightly or wrongly expect > government to do so. > The non-competitive environment of a socialist system creates tremendous opportunities for fraud and corruption, since a state-owned enterprise is in no danger of going bankrupt. Socialists have long assumed that under the influence of socialism, man will become less corrupt. The Soviet Union, for example, talks a lot about creating a "True Socialist Man", who is concerned first for the society, and secondarily for himself, because they recognize that individual self-interest makes their whole system collapse in corruption and bribery. (As Russians who have moved here tell me, lying and cheating are necessary to get some of the necessities of life, and most of the luxuries. In America, while lying and cheating are common, they aren't *necessary* for simple survival --- although some people persuade themselves this is so.) Study socialism more --- it *does* assume that man will become more perfect because of socialism. (This is also the assumption of the turn-of-the- century progressives in this country. The name is derived from a belief in human progess --- that people are getting better.) > > If the libertarian is wrong, and > > people are not entirely greedy, those positive attitudes will lead them > > to private social activity for the good of the less fortunate. > > And if your libertarian is *correct*, private social activity will *not* > replace the role of government, and the poor bastards will just starve in > the dark. > > Ergo your libertarianism only works if it is fundamentally in error. > > Baba ROM DOS Study libertarianism as well. The assumption is that people will work for a living. The example of history demonstrates that while free markets don't guarantee that everyone will be well off, few people have starved to death in free markets.