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From: hutch@shark.UUCP (Stephen Hutchison)
Newsgroups: net.games.frp
Subject: Re: changing alignment
Message-ID: <1453@shark.UUCP>
Date: Sat, 6-Jul-85 03:27:31 EDT
Article-I.D.: shark.1453
Posted: Sat Jul  6 03:27:31 1985
Date-Received: Sat, 13-Jul-85 08:46:44 EDT
References: <438@busch.UUCP>
Reply-To: hutch@shark.UUCP (Stephen Hutchison)
Organization: Tektronix, Wilsonville OR
Lines: 76
Summary: 

In article <438@busch.UUCP> mte@busch.UUCP (Moshe Eliovson) writes:
>
>	What?!  No news.  We should be ashamed of ourselves!  Well, here's
>	a question for you all:
>
>	I was in a situation where a little man in a flower was talking.
>	If I paid attention even a little, no saving throw.  The saving
>	throw was, now get this, 2d20 vs Int or change alignment to N.
>
>	Now the DM ruled a loss of 1 level.  To return through clerical
>	repentance etc no loss (to return to previous alignment that is).
>
>	Questions:
>	1) Should a level loss (xp) be charged in such a case - my knowledge
>	   is that the loss applies only to a pc changing his habits, NOT traps!
>	2) From N is there really a charge to go to LN, NG, CN or NE?
>
>		Ultrachaos Incarnate,
>		Moshe Eliovson
>		{allegra, ihnp4}!we53!busch!mte
>  	

Well, the answer to (1) depends on the DM's excuse for the powers of the
little bugger in the flower.  If it drew on negative material plane then
it was level-draining you as it talked, and the change in alignment is
a different power operating at the same time.   If it didn't draw on the
negative material, then it probably shouldn't have the level-drain effect
any more than a Helm of Opposite Alignment or some other magically enforced
change should have such an effect.  If the little bugger actually did
convert players to Neutral, then (as I understand the botched attempts in
AD&D to implement religions) the players would lose a level or more, as
dictated by whatever their deity did to them as punishment for changing.

HOWEVER:  IF they were converted, then WHY would they even WANT to change
back?  And the penalties imposed by the Restoration would depend on the
deity.  For instance, the adaptation of the Norse and Greeco-Roman deities
is thoroughly botched as far as attitude towards worshippers.  A worshipper
in these religions might have a primary patron, but no particular single
deity.  Around Roman times, there was great interest in the "mystery religions"
(of which Christianity was one).  These typically had several levels of
secrets, and you could be Initiate in many at once.  Only a few had any
kind of exclusion.  If your DM has a polytheistic world, and it is the
norm for people to believe in a pantheon rather than specific deities,
then it wouldn't be likely to really matter unless the conversion moved
you completely away from the pantheon.

As for (2), WHO KNOWS?  Your DM is the arbiter, and if the pantheons
and deities are jealous about worshippers, then changing alignment
without changing religion would just get you in trouble with your
deity.  Basically, your DM needs to have a good, clear explanation
and understanding of WHY alignments are there before inflicting them
on you players.  Most religions here in the surreal world don't have
a single, clearly definable alignment on the limited scales of Law-Chaos
and Good-Evil.  This is complicated by the fact that the majority teach
their doctrines, representing them as being, by definition, GOOD.  The
weakest of such assertions comes in the more esoteric Eastern religions,
such as the Tao, or Zen, which don't necessarily deal with concepts which
Wersterners would recognize as good and evil; such things are illusory or
undefinable, but they do teach that there are correct ways to act and
think, and (at least what I know of the Tao) they teach that to strive
for Good is a good thing.  Your DM needs to determine just how it is
that people are WILLING to worship "Evil" deities, and to similarly tell
what the role of Law-Chaos really is.  Note that few religions on Earth
Real-World have made a big deal out of these apparent opposites in any
practical way.  Some have made philosophic doctrines out of them but they
don't really have a lot of effect on how people acted.  (The Law of
Judaism is the terms of an agreement between God and Man, specifically
Jews, and doesn't suggest doctrinal conflict with some Chaos.  It just
says what to do, seldom why.)

Anyway, recall that in your own campaign you don't have to adhere to the
very letter of the AD&D rules, and that those rules in fact recommend
that you customize this very important part of your world, rather than
adopting ad-hoc a random collection of disjoint myth.

Hutch