Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site spar.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!bonnie!akgua!whuxlm!harpo!decvax!decwrl!spar!baba From: baba@spar.UUCP (Baba ROM DOS) Newsgroups: net.politics.theory Subject: Re: Libertarians in Space Message-ID: <384@spar.UUCP> Date: Fri, 5-Jul-85 18:41:29 EDT Article-I.D.: spar.384 Posted: Fri Jul 5 18:41:29 1985 Date-Received: Thu, 11-Jul-85 20:13:43 EDT References: <446@qantel.UUCP> <454@qantel.UUCP> <293@kontron.UUCP> <377@spar.UUCP> <322@kontron.UUCP> Organization: Schlumberger Palo Alto Research, CA Lines: 37 >>>There are many motivations besides self-interest and greed --- but there >>>are no so certain (sic) to be present in almost all people, almost all the >>>time. The socialists assume that most people will look out for the interests >>>of the society as a whole; libertarians assume that most people will >>>look out for their own interests. >>> >>> Clayton Cramer >> >> Not quite. The socialists assume that people will *not* look out >> for the interests of society as a whole, exactly what you ascribe to >> the libertarian position. The difference is that the socialists assume >> that the interests of society as a whole *should* be looked after, and >> since they think no one else will, they rightly or wrongly expect >> government to do so. >> >> Baba ROM DOS > > The non-competitive environment of a socialist system creates tremendous > opportunities for fraud and corruption, since a state-owned enterprise > is in no danger of going bankrupt. Socialists have long assumed that > under the influence of socialism, man will become less corrupt. The > Soviet Union, for example, talks a lot about creating a "True Socialist > Man", who is concerned first for the society, and secondarily for himself, > because they recognize that individual self-interest makes their whole > system collapse in corruption and bribery. > > Clayton Cramer This is a non-rebuttal. Even if the Soviet Union were a universally accepted paradigm of socialism, if socialists feel that "most people will look out for the interests of society as a whole", as you stated in your earlier posting excerpted above, why would they need to create a "True Socialist Man"? Wouldn't they already have one? Why would they worry about the effects of individual self-interest on their system? Why would they see a need to coerce anyone? Baba