Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site akgua.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!bonnie!akgua!rjb From: rjb@akgua.UUCP (R.J. Brown [Bob]) Newsgroups: net.religion.christian Subject: Church Discipline and Gay Christians Message-ID: <1292@akgua.UUCP> Date: Mon, 4-Mar-85 16:55:25 EST Article-I.D.: akgua.1292 Posted: Mon Mar 4 16:55:25 1985 Date-Received: Thu, 7-Mar-85 03:55:07 EST Organization: AT&T Technologies/Bell Labs, Atlanta Lines: 80 Re: Judgement Part II - Church Discipline and Gay Christians Whether one is or is not truly a Christian is known only absolutely by the Absolute Himself. However, those people who claim to be Christians and flout the obvious moral imperatives provided for us in Scripture are to be educated (gently) in their error first. The plan is shown to us very clearly in the Word that if they cannot be persuaded, by one brother or sister then two or three should attempt to persuade him or her. Then you take it to the church at large. The Scriptures teach us that this discipline belongs in the church for our betterment and that there is such a thing as Spiritual Authority. Notice the assumption implicit to my remarks is that the believer belongs to a local congregation or assembly. Again the scriptures teach us "Forsake not the assembling of yourselves together..". There is no such thing (he says dogmatically) as a Lone Ranger Christian (by choice) who is not headed for a hard fall or at the very least severely retarded spiritual growth. I mean...how can I find out how much I am growing in love if I don't have your abrasive personality to get Grace for several times per week (Sunday twice and perhaps Wedsnesday)?? :-) Everything I've said so far is perhaps a little foreign to us 20 th century Western types. Perhaps a typical reaction from your basic mainline Protestant male upon receiving a visit from an Elder or Pastor who, ever so gently, would dare bring a corrective word would be.. "You self-righteous bastard ! Who died and appointed you God !?" Or, if the individual were a woman( who tend to be more polite) or a polite man, he or she might sit in stunned silence during the correction and then after the event just split with that local church. Basically church discipline is non-existent because we think the unBiblical thought that we are ONLY accountable to God when it is abundantly clear we have accountability to our brothers and sisters as well. But I digress,...Gay lifestyles are clearly sinful for Christians. The New Testament Scripture references (especially Romans 1) have been cited repeatedly. Even if homosexuality were not prohibited in and of itself, we could make an argument against it on the basis of sex outside of marriage is either fornication or adultery. Since marriage is never spoken of in the Scriptures in the context of man/man or woman/woman....... How this ties in with Church Discipline is that when Gays are corrected they react with arguments about bigotry and narrowness. The corner- stone of their argumentation is that gayness is genetically determined. I would concede without argument that this could be the case that there are predispositions in some make-ups toward gayness, alcoholism, etc. The Gay theological error in my opinion is "God made me this way". We are born into a fallen world which produces these kinds of aberrations (sp?) but that does not relieve us from our responsibility as Christians. I have heard the testimony of many ex-gay people who have been delivered from homosexuality to the point that I suspect that it is a learned behavior perhaps in some cases abetted by natural predisposition. Loving someone in the Christian sense does not mean eternal silence in the face of a brother or sister Christian continuing to lead a clearly sinful lifestyle of whatever description. In line with my earlier article, the degree to which we judge unbelievers who happen to be gay or living in any other sinful lifestyles is somewhat problematic since theologically these folks have more serious problems than their behavior. For a lot of Christians the operational understanding of Man is that he sins because he is a sinner,...not the other way around. Bob Brown {...ihnp4!akgua!rjb} P.S. I KNOW MY POSITION LABELS ME AS A BIGOT AMONGST A BUNCH OF PEOPLE. SAVE YOUR FLAMES ON THAT PARTICULAR POINT.