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From: rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Professor Wagstaff)
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Response to Laura - what is a religion? (off the topic)
Message-ID: <641@pyuxd.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 8-Mar-85 09:33:51 EST
Article-I.D.: pyuxd.641
Posted: Fri Mar  8 09:33:51 1985
Date-Received: Sun, 10-Mar-85 04:40:39 EST
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Organization: Huxley College
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> Rich,
> your personal definition of ``religion'' implies a worship of a deity,
> and your personal definition of ``worship'' implies the existence
> of a deity -- or deities, I suppose.   [LAURA CREIGHTON]

It would be "my personal definition" if I took it from "my personal
dictionary".  Sorry, but I haven't published "The English Language According
to Rich Rosen" yet.  (Hell, I haven't even finished writing... uh, I mean
TRANSLATING!!! (whew!) the Book of Ubizmo!!!)  I would think that the
dictionaries I utilized do not contain "personal" definitions.

> Unfortunately, you are in Humpty Dumpty mode again. Everybody else
> (yes, I am sure you could drag up people who agree with you, that
> wasn't meant to be taken literally) just doesn't use words that way.

I could (and with more substantiation, given the dictionaries) say the
same thing back to you, Laura.

> This definition of religon is true for Judaism, Christianity and Islam --
> though I know Gnostics who consider themselves Christian and who don't
> ``worship God'' (according to them, Jesus was *not* God, and worshipping the
> Demiurge [sp?] is a mistake) (as opposed to the Yezidees who have a similar
> world view and who are proclaimed Satanists) and I am not sure how to
> characterise Sufism.  You seem to have left out Hinduism (though some Hindus
> do ``worship'' as you understand the term) Buddhism, Taoism, and a great many
> ``primative religions'' found in Malasia, Africa, and the Americas.
> The european pagan tradition (assuming that you believe that there 
> was one, and that it is connected to current paganism, the point
> being hotly debated in anthropological circles today) would be very
> divided into worshippers and non-worshippers by your standard -- all
> depending on what and how one takes to be symbols.
> 
> That is a lot of people who consider themsleves ``religious'' and who
> have designed ceremonies, and build statues, frescos and temples
> and in general gathered together to express a common belief and
> practice which they considered religious whom you are not recognising.

There are also a lot of people who consider themselves "scientists", who
hardly fit any reasonable definition of the term.  Must we adhere to their
self-labelling just because THEY say so?  If the definition of religion
implies worship of a deity (as I think I've shown that it does imply), then
the philosophies/belief systems you mention simply do not fall into the
category of "religion", and another word would have to be used to describe
them.

> Why must we all adopt your definitions? It seems that you are only
> willing to discuss what are called ``Judeao-Christian religions''
> (the authority centred, God creator ones) and, at that, I can't
> remember you discussing Islam ever, or Judaism much. If what you
> want to discuss is Christianity, then, you are in the wrong newsgroup,
> even if ``religion'' is synonymous with ``christianity'' to you.

Gee, Laura, are you now back to telling me TO post to n.r.c?  I'm confused.
Religion, by definition, implies worship of a deity.  Other belief systems
or philosophies that do not engage in such worship are thus not religions.
This does not make them "bad" (certainly not in my eyes), rather it simply
means that another word should be used to describe them.  Again, these are
not MY definitions:  there are commonly accepted definitions.  The fact that
a movement runs around calling itself a religion (or a science) does not
make it so.  Why such a movement would WANT to get lumped in with belief
systems it is fundamentally different from in that regard is beyond me.
-- 
"It's a lot like life..."			 Rich Rosen  ihnp4!pyuxd!rlr