Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/5/84; site cvl.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!allegra!bellcore!decvax!genrad!panda!talcott!harvard!seismo!umcp-cs!cvl!david From: david@cvl.UUCP (David Harwood) Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: reply to Teitz Message-ID: <141@cvl.UUCP> Date: Thu, 7-Mar-85 03:11:21 EST Article-I.D.: cvl.141 Posted: Thu Mar 7 03:11:21 1985 Date-Received: Sun, 10-Mar-85 06:46:25 EST Distribution: net Organization: Computer Vision Lab, U. of Maryland, College Park Lines: 138 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >From: teitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz) Message-ID: <1206@aecom.UUCP> Date: 5 Mar 85 17:42:21 GMT The Jewish perspective is much easier to follow. Jesus was a man like any other person, and died just as others die. His death was in no way an atonement more than any other person's death is. One doesn't need the idea of trinity. Eliyahu Teitz. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It is said that Jesus asked his disciples, "Who do you say I am?" And they gave various popular and personal opinions, likening him to the teachers or the prophets of the past, until, finally, Simon Peter said, "You are the Christ." But, then, Jesus replied that no man, but God alone, had revealed this to Peter, and that upon this "rock" would the church stand, prevailing forever, even against the greatest forces of destruction. Clearly, he was not referring literally to Peter, as some would have it. What this means is that the knowledge that "Jesus is the Christ" ultimately is given by the revelation of God. (I would say that it is certainly known by the "self-revelation" of God, the so-called "Name" of God, which has been given to Jesus so that Christ may be known in every generation by those who are called by this Name. A sort of "Good Housekeeping Seal of approval", if you like. This is my own experience, before I became a "Christian"; however, you should read the last discourse attributed to Jesus before his death -- John 17 -- even if you would disregard my testimony. Also, there is what was considered to be the most important Gospel account by the early church, which immediately follows this episode in the Gospels, the "transfiguration" of Jesus as Christ, in which he appears with the glory of God before his intimate apostles -- Peter, John, and his brother James. Once again, Jesus is revealed by God to be uniguely distinguished, from Moses and Elijah, representative of the Law and the Prophets. This is, perhaps, a preposing of the experience of Christ's resurrection, in which the thoroughly discouraged disciples unexpectedly found that they were wrong about Jesus -- for he did live, as the eternal Christ. For this reason the Gospels were written, so that others might remember the life of Jesus and its significance to the first of those who were called to be Christians. Also, we may understand the conversion of Paul in this light, the only psychological account of a conversion in the NT, and an experience which he identifies with that of "the risen Christ." For Paul then gave up his old life, that the spirit of Christ might live in him. (This does not mean Paul was not Paul -- but that he was spiritually changed, in the twinkling of the eye -- a much better man who made Christ known to all the world -- one who wanted others to know the grace of God.) It was this, his experience of "the risen Christ", which was the seal of his apostleship, to which he refers again and again in his letters. He never was acquainted with Jesus before his death. If his experience was different from that of the Peter and James, the chief apostles in Jerusalem, who were intimately acquainted with Jesus, who were "witnesses" to the resurrection, then they never would have approved his calling to evangelize to the Gentiles (of all things for a Jew to do.) But they did, and it is not Moses who has made the name of God known to all the world, but it is the light of Christ revealed in the hearts of men. What about the "second coming" of Christ -- when He shall be made known to all? Actually, the expression never occurs in the NT. Rather, it says he will come again, on the so-called Day of the Lord. The Greek word "parousia" does not mean second coming, as such; it means "royal appearance", as of a distinguished visitor. The earliest NT writings are those by Paul, not those of the Gospels. He does not say that he and the other apostles "saw" the "risen Christ"; he says that He did "appear" to them at various times. The Day of the Lord comes unexpectedly. As the Quaker George Fox has said, any day may be that Day, when we are found out by God, and, by the grace of God, called to live another life. For this reason, the man Jesus is said to be glorified by God, raised up to the eternal "heaven", given the authority of God, so that we, in his spirit, may live. In this sense, Jesus is uniquely of God, for God has made him known to us, so that he has made God known to us. Therefore, he is not, as you say, an ordinary man, like me, or you even, because he has been uniquely "glorified" by God. There remains the question -- Why does not God make known Christ here and now to all? I don't think it matters to God whether we profess to be a "Jew" or a "Christian", so long as we faithfully reflect the true nature of God -- we are to be faithful and merciful to others, without prejudice, as He is; no one wins points for believing theological formulae. As it is said, even Satan is a monotheist. On the other hand, who will test God? Could we coerce Him so that He proves Himself in a series of replicable experiments? Hardly. It is we who are to be tested. Everyone who first sincerely seeks to know the truth about himself, and to change his life, and calls upon God to help him -- that one will found out the truth. Of course,if you believe you already know the truth, and that Christ has nothing to offer you. Well then, what do you expect? After all, is this some sort of intellectual challenge, like that by Russell, of God to prove Himself? What sort of autonomous existence, as moral beings, would we have if God browbeat us? What sort of God would be challenged by intellectual twits who are full of themselves? No, I think things are just so. (As for why there is suffering -- again, that seems a test of mankind rather than of God.) Why do the Jews not acknowledge Jesus as the Christ? Well, there are three important historical reasons I can think of. For one thing, in the beginning, he infuriated many of the contemp- orary religious leaders. (I'm sure he would do the same thing today.) Also, Jesus was not what they expected, a temporal king of Israel (as opposed to an eternal Christ, whose Presence is with us in every generation). But I suppose the main reason that they have not accepted Jesus as the Christ is because "Christians" have not been very much like Jesus -- their history is short on charity and justice, very long on hypocrisy and violence. But, again, I would say -- Is this a test of Jesus, as the Christ? Or, is this, rather, a judgment of us who have betrayed him? The Gospels attribute an unconsciously prophetic remark to the high priest of Israel, made before the arrest of Jesus by the authorities. He said that it was better for one man to die than for all the people to perish. (Of course, the literal meaning was that it was better to be rid of Jesus than to have him stir up trouble with the Romans -- who eventually destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple later when Israel was become ungovernable.) There is no question but that Jesus believed that he was the Christ, but also that he would die so that others might live. How many of us will give up our lives so that others may live? It isn't a matter of sacrifice to God, since He does not want our deaths -- he wants us to be merciful to others. But if mankind is destroyed tomorrow, it will be because we have betrayed Christ. And if mankind is to live on the day after, will the others have died in vain, or will the spirit of Christ be received at last? I would say that it is better that one has died, so unjustly that we may know it, for the justice of God, so that not all the people would perish in the darkness. But he has given his life so that we may know how to live, and if we are to live, we shall live even as He does. Let us give thanks to the Lord, for His mercy, in Christ, endures forever. David Harwood