Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84 exptools; site ihuxn.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxr!ihnp4!ihuxn!jho From: jho@ihuxn.UUCP (Yosi Hoshen) Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish Subject: Re: Coercion or Democracy? Message-ID: <988@ihuxn.UUCP> Date: Thu, 7-Mar-85 13:08:50 EST Article-I.D.: ihuxn.988 Posted: Thu Mar 7 13:08:50 1985 Date-Received: Fri, 8-Mar-85 04:59:40 EST References: <146@pyuxww.UUCP> <979@ihuxn.UUCP> <515@sfmag.UUCP> Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories Lines: 104 Yitzchok Samet writes (responding to my posting): >An oft-cited, legitimate case of coercion in Israel would be >throwing rocks at cars on Shabbos. This is an irresponsible, >foolish, and forbidden act from the Torah viewpoint. This is sidetracking of the main issue. In my posting I did not even refer to throwing rocks at cars by religious thugs. The greater majority of religious people in Israel are not violent and do not practice the biblical skill of 'skila' (stoning). Such behavior becomes a problem only if it is condoned by the government, and this is not the case. Now lets get back to the issue of state legislated religious coercion. >The State proclaims itself to be Jewish and thereby legitimizes >things like the "law of return", which could be easily attacked >as racist in an American context........ Let me remind you that even if Israel is defined as a "Jewish State" (I prefer the term a State for the Jews) it does not imply a Jewish orthodox state according to halacha. T. Herzel who envisioned the modern "Jewish State" was not a religious person (possibly an atheist). Most of the Zionist founders of Israel were secular Jews who saw the state as a refuge from religious and other forms of coercion applied against Jews in the diaspora. What do we have now? Jews fleeing from oppression in other parts of the world (communist and Arab countries) find a new form of religious coercion imposed on them by the Jewish State. >Similarly, the rabbinate in Israel is duly empowered by law to >rule halachically on issues such as marriage, divorce, and >conversion, and to advise individuals according to those rulings. >That is the law, just like taxes. You may not like it, but it's >sidestepping the issue to chant the buzzword "coercion" every >time the rabbinate makes a halachic decision which upsets you. I guess personal matters such as marriage and divorce can be compared to taxes. Since Jews comprise <3% of the American population, I assume you would not complain If the US would require that all marriages should be performed by Christian clergy. Since Christians are the majority, they could democratically pass such a law. Would you like to undergo a Christian marriage ceremony. Obviously you would consider it as state mandated 'avoda zara', humiliation and coercion . This is what is happening in Israel. When I got married, I had no choice, but to be married by a Rabbi in a religious marriage ceremony. This was a deeply humiliating experience for me, as from my point of view religion is a form of superstition, just as Christianity is to you 'avoda zara'. If civil marriage was availble in Israel, I would not be faced with such a humiliating experience. So now, I hope you understand the difference between marriage and taxation. I am not concerned with the halachic decisions the rabbinate makes. I don't think anyone has the right to tell religious people how to interpret their religious laws. Doing so would be also religious coercion. The issue is not the rabinnate, but the state that follows the rabinnate. I will restate my point again. The state should not be in the religion business, trying to impose religious laws on those who do not practice the religion. In previous postings, I posted quotes from the former Israeli minister of religious affairs, Dr. Zerach Varhaftig. I think these quotes reflect the attitude of the religionists in Israel. I have not seen any response from any orthodox Jew to these quotes. Is this silence an agreement with Varhaftig's position? In case it did not get to you I will repost them again. Varhaftig said: "According the religious concept, every Jew is a religious Jew. The fact of him being a Jew makes him religious.... We think that every Jew has a Jewish affinity (zika), however, his negative desires* (itzro) destroy his mind. If a law comes, and restricts his (the Jew) susceptibility to his negative desires, his positive passion (regesh tov) will be awakened. And it will begin with coercion and end with desire (t'chilato b'o'nes v'sofo b'ratzon)." [Ha'aretz, February 1962] ____________________ * not accepting the Jewish law. Let's hypothesize that the Pope makes a similar statement on Christianity. If you replace in the above Jew -> person, religious Jew -> Chrisitian, Varhaftig -> Pope, Hebrew -> Latin, you would get: "According the religious concept, every person is a Christian. The fact of him being a person makes him a Christian.... We think that every person has a Christian affinity (zika), however, his negative desires* (itzro) destroy his mind. If a law comes, and restricts his (the person's) susceptibility to his negative desires, his positive passion (regesh tov) will be awakened. And it will begin with coercion and end with desire (t'chilato b'o'nes v'sofo b'ratzon)." ________________ * Not accepting Christ as your personal savior How would you feel about such statement? There is a Hebrew saying (which the religionists seem to forget): "Al ta'ase l'chavercha mah sh'sanu aleicha" "Don't do to your friend what you detest" -- Yosi Hoshen, Bell Laboratories Naperville, Illinois, (312)-979-7321, Mail: ihnp4!ihuxn!jho