Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 exptools 1/6/84; site ihnp4.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxr!ihnp4!tosca From: tosca@ihnp4.UUCP (lyn cole) Newsgroups: net.nlang Subject: Re: Re: Death for we who deserve it Message-ID: <698@ihnp4.UUCP> Date: Tue, 8-Jan-85 13:26:00 EST Article-I.D.: ihnp4.698 Posted: Tue Jan 8 13:26:00 1985 Date-Received: Wed, 9-Jan-85 05:34:13 EST References: <287@ho95b.UUCP> Organization: AT&T Bell Labs, Naperville, IL Lines: 46 Okay, i will perhaps concede the comma isn't needed in the construction: "My father objects to me[,] picking my nose," though that construction looks and sounds awkward to me with or without the comma. However, my statement that sentence 1 was incorrect referred only to that comma. Michael ellis' two counterexamples (noun + participle) sound awkward to me, also, though i'm prepared to admit that i have always enjoyed studying some of the fine points of grammar (though Latin and German do overdo it a bit!). My Strunk and White says: "The construction [of noun or pronoun plus participle] is occasionally found, and has its defenders. .... Any sentence in which the use of the possessive is awkward or impossible should of course be recast." Joe Fasel's good explanation of the relative clause involved may have answered Robert Neinast's latest question, but here's an additional comment. Robert asks: "Can the *we* in "1a" be considered correct, as the subject of the phrase *we who deserve it*, and then the whole phrase is the object of the main clause?" The answer is an emphatic "no". First, "who deserve it" is a clause, not a phrase, i.e., it has a subject and predicate. This is why "who", the subject, is in the nominative case. A phrase, e.g., a prepositional phrase, is, "a sequence of two or more words arranged grammatically and not having a subject and predicate, as a preposition and a noun or pronoun, an adjective and a noun, verb and an adverb, etc." (according to my Random House dictionary). The group "we who deserve it" is a phrase consisting of pronoun ("we") and adjective (clause: "who deserve it"). The pronoun must thus be in the case determined by its use (nominative "we" as subject or predicate nominative of sentence or clause, objective "us" for anything else). The gist of the matter is that a clause is a tight unit in which forms (including cases) of constituent parts are determined by their uses in the clause, while a phrase is a looser construction of words whose forms are determined by their uses in the enclosing clause (whew!). from the asymp S of lyn cole (ihnp4!tosca) tot T AT&T Bell Laboratories ic A Naperville, IL al B (312) 979-2729 l L y E