Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site pyuxd.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!gamma!pyuxww!pyuxd!rlr From: rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Rich Rosen) Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish,net.politics Subject: Re: Tutu Makes a DooDoo Message-ID: <369@pyuxd.UUCP> Date: Wed, 9-Jan-85 15:59:32 EST Article-I.D.: pyuxd.369 Posted: Wed Jan 9 15:59:32 1985 Date-Received: Fri, 11-Jan-85 23:19:45 EST References: <95@mit-athena.ARPA> <466@fisher.UUCP> <18994@lanl.ARPA> Organization: Bell Communications Research, Piscataway N.J. Lines: 41 Xref: watmath net.religion.jewish:1228 net.politics:6705 > [David Rubin states:] > > Regarding nationalism, I suggest Martillo not limit his diatribes to > > Moslems. It seems almost all nationalistic movements, even if they > > begin constructively (preservation of culture, furthering of identity, > > advancement of education), assume malevolent form (supression of other > > nationalities). It is not something peculiar to Arabs or Islam, nor > > something from which Jews are themselves immune. > > > Now that David Rubin and Rich Rosen have again demonstrated their universal > love for all of mankind, maybe now we can discuss the facts. > [INSERT INVECTIVE ABOUT MUSLIMS HERE] ... [BILL PETER] Now that Bill Peter has "discussed the facts", perhaps he can uncover the fact that Muslims are not alone (as he and Martillo might be perceived to believe) in anti-human atrocities, and that sometimes those he wishes to defend are as guilty of such things themselves. Why is there always a response to requests for egalitarian, unprejudiced treatment of all human beings that goes something like: "Yeah, right, but we can only REALLY have world peace/brotherhood/etc. when we've gotten rid of the damn [INSERT SOME GROUP HERE] ..."? But then, not "pointing out" such things is tantamount to cosmopolitan vusvusism... (It's funny that the author thinks it's OK because Martillo wasn't "singling out" Arabs, but Muslims in general.) > Finally, we should ask how nationalist movements like Zionism, Gandhi-ism, > and the American civil rights movement managed to avoid including wholesale > murder as a basic policy. Islam is an historically mature movement, with an > age of over a thousand years, and yet still shows no willingess to accept > the basic tenets of civilized society. This is about as far from the truth as one can get, since all the movements described here have had their share of atrocities and repression by at least some subset of its adherents. ALL nationalistic movements hold the seeds of such activity, and these seeds ripen through the proliferation of notions of one group's superiority/inferiority to others. -- "So, it was all a dream!" --Mr. Pither "No, dear, this is the dream; you're still in the cell." --his mother Rich Rosen pyuxd!rlr