Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site fisher.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!allegra!princeton!astrovax!fisher!david From: david@fisher.UUCP (David Rubin) Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish,net.politics Subject: Re: Tutu Makes a DooDoo Message-ID: <483@fisher.UUCP> Date: Wed, 16-Jan-85 09:25:00 EST Article-I.D.: fisher.483 Posted: Wed Jan 16 09:25:00 1985 Date-Received: Thu, 17-Jan-85 04:47:03 EST References: <95@mit-athena.ARPA> <466@fisher.UUCP>, <351@pyuxd.UUCP> <28@mit-athena.ARPA> Organization: Princeton Univ. Statistics Lines: 106 Xref: watmath net.religion.jewish:1278 net.politics:6909 >>> == Dave Rubin >> == Richard Rosen > == Joachim Martillo == David Rubin redux >>> Regarding nationalism, I suggest Martillo not limit his diatribes to >>> Moslems. It seems almost all nationalistic movements, even if they >>> begin constructively (preservation of culture, furthering of identity, >>> advancement of education), assume malevolent form (supression of other >>> nationalities). It is not something peculiar to Arabs or Islam, nor >>> something from which Jews are themselves immune. >>HEAR HEAR!!! Well said! May Martillo call you a "cosmopolitan vus-vus". >>(I consider that a high honor if ever there was one. No smiley >>intended.) >Yet another example of Richard Rosen's fossilized leftist Vus-Vus >hypocrisy. In net.religion, Rosen will dump on Christianity and >Christian clerics for the tiniest possible reason. Now Tutu, a major >Christian cleric makes a statement which with inane generosity would be >called ignorantly insensitive in an area which Tutu as a bishop is >supposed to be an expert. Res ipsa loquitur. If Falwell had expressed >similar sentiments Rubin and Rosen would have squealed. Not necessarily. It would not disturb my perceptions terribly to find Falwell as ignorant of Judaism as Tutu. >Traditional >Christian anti-Semitism is avoided nowadays by mainstream Christian >Churches and by the Moral Majority. But Tutu as a leftist is able to >combine traditional Christian anti-Semitism and radical New Left >anti-Semitism. Since Rosen and Rubin are grovelers who prize their >connections to a non-Jewish community via leftist movements more than >any tie to the Jewish community, they will make apologies and >rationalizations for any leftist barbarism even if that barbarism is >directed at them themselves. Their behavior is just like the Ashkenazi >quislings in the Soviet Union who apologized for Soviet anti-Semitism as >a way of mobilizing the masses for the good of the Marxist cause. Me, a leftist? Surely you jest. Unless, of course, you consider, say, Howard Baker, a leftist... Those who advocated the new order in the Soviet Union after the revolution of 1917 believed that Russian anti-Semitism would die out without the impetus it had been receiving from the government. Their thesis was never adequately tested, as Stalin rose to power less than a generation after the revolution. At worst, they MIGHT have been mistaken. That does not make them quislings. Christian anti-Semitism not practiced by the Fundamentalist Right? I think that Martillo is mistaken (and thus as much of a "quisling" as the Soviet Jews who sided with the 1917 revolution). Perhaps he needs to hear a Fundamentalist preacher denounce Jewish "control" of the media and banking to be brought back to his senses. The Fundamentalists are not as virulent as they once were (score one for progress), but to state the Fundamentalist Right has been purged of its anti-Semitism is an exercise in wishful thinking. As for Tutu's supposed blending of Christian and leftist (the difference between the two brands seems contrived to me), this diatribe serves only to distract the readers of this group from the lack of satisfactory response from Martillo to challenges to demonstrate ANY anti-Semitism on Tutu's part. We're still waiting. >By the way, if Rubin and Rosen bothered to read my articles, they would >note that I constantly dump on Zionism not for what Zionism did to Arab >Muslims about whom I could not care less but for the abuses Zionism >committed on Sefardic and oriental Jews. Members of my family are of >the opinion that voting in Israeli elections may be a violation of a >mitswah mide'oraita' (commandment in the pentateuch). I personally am >strongly anti-Nationalist and therefore recommend immediate subjugation >of Muslim nations which would then be returned to European colonial >rule. I have bothered, and am fully aware of such. Perhaps it is time to note, that however culturally arrogant Ashkenazic Zionists may have been, (1) Martillo exceeds them, and (2) Sephardic Jews would still be living in Muslim societies but for their efforts. >While I am perfectly willing to dump on apartheid, Castro's treatment of >homosexuals, PRC mistreatment of peasants, or India's forced sterilation >program, I concentrate my attacks on Muslim barbarism because Muslim >barbarism is directed against me, my family, and my people. This is >simply the common sense of self-preservation which self-destructive >VusVusim like Rosen and Rubin would not understand. They would have >made good members of the Verband deutscher Nationaler Juden (League of >German National Jews -- Jews who voted for Hitler). Statements that >Rosen made on the impropriety of defining him as a Jew and as a member >of the Jewish community via Jewish law were quite typical of the >sentiments of members of this political organization. Granted, Muslim barbarism is the most immediate threat to Jews in the Near East. Self-preservation (a moral necessity) does not compel me to seek the utter annihilation of those who have persecuted me. Else, I'd be demanding a world populated only by Jews. Perhaps that is what Martillo is driving at. I'd suggest (so long as the mud is flying) that Martillo would have made a better member of the Verband der Deutsche Nationale Juden, as it would provide an excellent means to eliminate leftist influence on effette Ashkenazi Jews. David Rubin {allegra|astrovax|princeton}!fisher!david