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From: faustus@ucbcad.UUCP
Newsgroups: net.politics
Subject: Re: Re: More on justice
Message-ID: <58@ucbcad.UUCP>
Date: Sat, 12-Jan-85 02:51:23 EST
Article-I.D.: ucbcad.58
Posted: Sat Jan 12 02:51:23 1985
Date-Received: Mon, 14-Jan-85 02:44:44 EST
References: <283@gargoyle.UChicago.UUCP> <573@unmvax.UUCP>
Organization: UC Berkeley CAD Group, Berkeley, CA
Lines: 102

> > In Libertaria, a future libertarian society, Jack inherits $1 zillion.  He
> > spends his days playing tennis and polo, driving his Rolls, and sipping
> > Courvoisier by the poolside with the many women who wish to share his
> > wealth.  Whenever he gets into legal trouble (e.g., for paternity), he
> > engages the top legal talents of Gouge & Swindle to get him off the hook.
> 
> Surprise, since the legal code would be so much easier to understand it would
> be inconceivable that a lawyer's prowess would enter into the play.  Of course
> if there were sufficient corruption, then the wealthy would still be getting
> the freebies, but we are talking about a libertarian country with a minimalist
> government that is non prone to corruption; we are not talking about one of 
> the many socialist governments riddled with graft.

Don't imagine that all the corruption and injustice in the world come
about because of the government -- the point of this "story" is to provide
a scenario where injustice comes about because of the lack of government
regulation in society.

> > Across town lives Jill.  She works 12 hours a day, except when she's been
> > laid off, in the Acme Asbestos plant which Jack owns.  She never gets very
> > far ahead of poverty; her sons were killed in the war.  Since there is no
> > OSHA or EPA, she must rely on the cheapest lawyers in town, Torts-R-Us, to
> > represent her in her suit against Jack when she contracts cancer from
> > working in the plant (their record against G&S is zip-500)....
> 
> This is utter bullshit!
> How about Jill is constantly employed, since there is no unemployment.
> Jill doesn't have to worry about inflation and has had enough money to
> save up for her future years.  

No unemployment?? No inflation??  Where do you get these claims?

> Her sons both opted not to join the service
> since there was little incentive (think what the volunteer armed services
> would be like if there were 100% employment of civilians...).

Maybe they joined because it was the only job they could find, and they
felt duty-bound to help their dying mother. Where this figure of
100% employment comes from, I don't understand... But libertarian thought
moves in strange and wonderful ways, so I shouldn't presume to
question your logic.

> Why can't I write a similar paragraph:
> 
> Across town lives Jill.  She lives in an utter rat hole, since she and the
> other people in her project do not own the building they do not care for it
> and it is as poorly maintained as your average ghetto 
> government-funded project.
> She works 12 hours a day because the socialist society has determined that by
> doing so she would be optimally benefitting society. The only time she doesn't
> work is when there are shortages of products essential to her plant. She isn't
> included on the poverty list because it would not be optimal for the state to
> admit to the conditions of its workers. One of her sons was drafted and killed
> in war, the other after seeing the fate 
> of his brother turned to criticizing the
> government.  He was captured, put in an insane asylum, experimented upon and
> eventually died.  She has absolutely no recourse whatsover when she contracts
> cancer due to the working conditions; the government doesn't allow itself to
> be criticized much less sued.
>
> Oh, but I am being to kind.  Maybe a more succint story would be:
> Jill dies before she is even 10 years old, because the socialist government
> that she lives under did not allow its citizens to prepare adequately for
> the drought that has hit her nation.  Free market countries with sympathetic
> citizens rush food that their country has in abundance to her nations aid, but
> much of it arrives too late.

Sounds bad. But this is like saying, "If you don't think it would be good
to be poisoned, think what it would be like to be shot." I don't find
this sort of argument very convincing.

> > We see here how Jack's possession of property gives him dominance over Jill,
> > a situation that a socialist society would be designed to prevent (at least
> > in my concept of socialism).  Libertarians say that if Jack's heart bleeds
> > for Jill, he is free to donate some of his wealth to her or perhaps marry
> > her.  This is true, but entirely beside the point:  libertarians believe
> > that the distribution of wealth is just, WHETHER OR NOT Jack gives away any
> > of his bucks.  The ONLY criterion for justice, say they, is whether the
> > distribution of wealth is the result of free-market transactions in the
> > absence of force or fraud.  
> 
> You already knew that Jack was redistributing his wealth.  Every time he
> buys a Rolls Royce, money is transfered.  If his money is sitting in a bank
> then it is being used by some project that is transferring money.  If his
> money is sitting in gold bars in his basement it is keeping inflation down.

So the money is being transfered to Joe across town who is also rich and
builds Rolls Royces. Big deal.  Keeping inflation down by taking money
out of circulation isn't always the best economic policy, either...

> > Such a view seems hard to beat for sheer moral turpitude.  Is this truly
> > your idea of a decent society, libertarians?
> 
> Why of course it is, I wouldn't have typed it in if it weren't.  What?  I
> *didn't* type it in?  Who did?  Oh, then it must be *his* view of a decent
> society.  Duh.

You are right, libertarians do have a vastly different idea of their ideal
society than the one presented here. Of course, this one is much more likely
to come about...

	Wayne