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From: david@fisher.UUCP (David Rubin)
Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish,net.politics
Subject: Re: Tutu Makes a DooDoo
Message-ID: <473@fisher.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 8-Jan-85 09:04:41 EST
Article-I.D.: fisher.473
Posted: Tue Jan  8 09:04:41 1985
Date-Received: Wed, 9-Jan-85 05:37:14 EST
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Organization: Princeton Univ. Statistics
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Xref: watmath net.religion.jewish:1216 net.politics:6659

>[David Rubin states:]  
>> Regarding nationalism, I suggest Martillo not limit his diatribes to
>> Moslems.  It seems almost all nationalistic movements, even if they
>> begin constructively (preservation of culture, furthering of identity,
>> advancement of education), assume malevolent form (supression of other
>> nationalities).  It is not something peculiar to Arabs or Islam, nor
>> something from which Jews are themselves immune.
>> 

[Bill Peter states:]
>Now that David Rubin and Rich Rosen have again demonstrated their universal
>love for all of mankind, maybe now we can discuss the facts.              

See facts below.

>To call wholesale murder by Muslim governments of non-Muslim peoples 
>"supression" (sic) is a criminal understatement.  

Your critique of word choice is well-taken, though "criminal" is mite
too strong. 

>Martillo is definitely not singling out Arabs; Muslims in Indonesia and 
>Malaysia are especially well-known for their brutality and inhumanity.
>If you can find any ethnic Chinese left in these countries, just ask any
>one of them.

He has singled out both Arabs and Moslems in the past; I was just
covering all bases.

>Finally, we should ask how nationalist movements like Zionism, Gandhi-ism,
>and the American civil rights movement managed to avoid including wholesale
>murder as a basic policy.  Islam is an historically mature movement, with an
>age of over a thousand years, and yet still shows no willingess to accept
>the basic tenets of civilized society.

First, Ghandi-ism (Indian nationalism) did not avoid such murderous
tendancies.  Second, the American civil rights movement was not a
nationalistic movement.  Third, Zionism is the exception rather than
the rule in its success at avoiding a murderous stage.  However, it, too,
has moved into a supressive one.  Those are the facts.  Please note
that I did not say all nationalistic movements were murderous, and the
reference to one which is not murderous does not refute my claim that
most are and nearly all are surpressive (If criminal understatement may
be permitted here).

Also note that the "basic tenets" of civilized society are a concept
not observed by any nations until nuclear terror forced them upon
Europe following WWII.  If Christians arrived at the observance of
such tenets only in this century, after having half a millenium head
start on the Moslems, why should we consider it unusual that Islam still
lags?

>American Jews, more than any other people in this country, should be 
>especially and painfully aware of the treatment their brothers have had
>at the hands of these governments.
>					     bill peter
>					     !seismo!cmcl2!lanl!wkp

I am aware, and am more receptive to suffering by Jews than by any
other people.  However, Moslems do not have a monopoly on the
oppression of Jews and Jews do not have a monopoly on suffering
oppression.

					David Rubin
			{allegra|astrovax|princeton}!fisher!david