Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site ttidcc.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!allegra!bellcore!decvax!genrad!teddy!panda!talcott!harvard!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe From: hollombe@ttidcc.UUCP (Jerry Hollombe) Newsgroups: net.flame Subject: Re: Heinlein's arguments in _Starship Troopers_ Message-ID: <187@ttidcc.UUCP> Date: Wed, 16-Jan-85 15:18:45 EST Article-I.D.: ttidcc.187 Posted: Wed Jan 16 15:18:45 1985 Date-Received: Sun, 20-Jan-85 05:33:23 EST Organization: TTI, Santa Monica, CA. Lines: 61 >From: david@ukma.UUCP (David Herron, NPR Lover) >Subject: Re: Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!! >Message-ID: <491@ukma.UUCP> > >This recent discussion on Bernhard Goetz is strange. I just saw this >argument in _Starship_Troopers_ (For you uncivilized types, this is a >book by Robert Heinlein) when I was re-reading it today. Here is his >argument (in a nutshell): > [I'll spare the net the full quote. You've seen it by now.] > Sigh. Yet another Heinlein fanatic. And what a book to quote from! His greatest "glorification of war and violence" novel ever. I've read it, several times in fact (ah, youth). The punishment proposed in it for most misdemeanors and minor felonies is public flogging (e.g.: 50 lashes for drunk driving), to give you an idea of where he's coming from. (Citizenship and the right to vote are based on military service, but that's another issue.) In fairness to Heinlein I must say that this is one of his older novels and most of the psychological research on violence and the effects of punishment hadn't been done at the time he wrote it. Well, the psychological research has been done now. The psych journals contain scores of experimental studies on the effects of violence and punishment. The common results: 1) Violence breeds violence. 2) Punishment has a quick but short lived effect on behavior patterns. For references see almost any study on child and/or spousal abuse and the work of B.F. Skinner, just for a start. The question really is, do we want to punish the offenders (i.e.: take revenge), or protect society from them? If the former, then Heinlein's methods may be appropriate. If the latter, the next question is do we lock them away, kill them, or modify their behavior patterns? The first two is what we're doing now. Given points 1) and 2) above punishment/revenge is counter-productive (sorry, Heinlein). Locking away is expensive and impermanent. Killing is unpopular and irreversable (we do make mistakes). Modifying behavior is expensive, uncertain, and unpopular. Solution? I don't have one, but public flogging probably isn't it. >I guess it is like any relationship. The way it ends up has a lot to >do with the way it started. If it starts off bad then it is hard >to correct later. And it gets worse the longer you wait. I couldn't have put it better myself. -- ============================================================================== ... sitting in a pile of junk on the runway, wondering what happened ... The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe) Citicorp TTI If thy CRT offend thee, pluck 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. it out and cast it from thee. Santa Monica, California 90405 (213) 450-9111, ext. 2483 {vortex,philabs}!ttidca!ttidcc!hollombe