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From: allenm@ittvax.UUCP (Allen Matsumoto)
Newsgroups: net.kids
Subject: Re: How to discipline short of spanking
Message-ID: <1587@ittvax.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 8-Jan-85 15:46:02 EST
Article-I.D.: ittvax.1587
Posted: Tue Jan  8 15:46:02 1985
Date-Received: Fri, 11-Jan-85 06:46:02 EST
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Organization: ITT-ATC, Stratford Ct.
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I think discipline is very much a matter of personal choice.  There is
certainly no agreement on cause/effect relationships for types of
punishments or rewards.  But there is a lot in this article which
bothers me, so I am trying to respond to this calmly.

To make my position explicit, I am opposed to spanking.  I don't believe
spanking is good for raising children.  I don't see how it could avoid
encouraging violence.  The occasional use of spanking must be tempered
with copious amounts of love (if violence has to be resorted to at all).

> I have to come out in favor of spanking.  We resort to this only
> rarely (every month or two) -- and it is usually in response to
> some obviously defiant behavior.  

I don't consider "every month or two" to be even close to "rarely."  I
have hit my eldest once when she was 3 and was about to run into the
street without looking.  The one spanking was a quick swat, and it
achieved more surprise than pain; she was really astounded that I
actually hit her.  The surprise was the most effective part of the
entire affair.  I haven't spanked either of our other children (yet?).

It seems to me that anyone who thinks monthly is rare, must have a
frightening belief of what "normal spanking" would be.  Obviously we
aren't talking about child abuse, but that's still a lot more spanking
than I would have imagined parents have to resort to.  Am I completely
unrealistic in this?  I don't think once a year would bother me (much),
but once a month?

> Since our first line of discipline is sending our daughter to bed,
> spanking usually happens there, too.  We try to overcome the bad
> associations of bed by reading stories, etc. there.

This makes sense to me.  What about the bad associations of being hit at
all, though?  Don't all kids display "obviously defiant behavior"?
Isn't that just part of growing up?  You, the adult, are supposed to
do better than she.  Don't just react to her behavior.

> Someone mentioned that screaming was their daughter's right.  I think
> there is merit to this idea, but when I want to sleep, I cannot
> allow our daughter to scream on and on.  Besides which, I really
> think that she sometimes is crying out of meanness.

Doesn't this tell you something?  (You imply below you don't think kids
are inherently "mean".)  You think there is meanness in screaming in bed.
Doesn't your child think there is meanness in your hitting her?  What
are her choices in this kind of situation?  She can do exactly what you
tell her meekly, or she can oppose you in the only way she currently
knows.  What will happen when she grows up?  She'll have learned to do
what she is told, or she'll learn more extreme ways of opposing you.
Would you like either of those?

> My wife was until recently a preschool teacher, and she is convinced
> that one of the things that would have been most helpful for the
> kids is an occasional spanking!  Really, the things she told me would
> make you want to spank the kids too -- like when they come to her and
> kick her on the shins.  If you knew my wife, you would know that she
> is sinfully meek, so that I am sure she does not provoke such attacks.

I agree all kids need firm discipline.  This does not necessarily mean
spanking, though.  Again, adults have other ways of dealing with kids
than resorting to physical punishment.  We are not just bigger than
they, are we?

> I agree with the parent who said that discipline should be used
> sparingly.  For us, usually an explanation or a warning will be all
> that is required.  But (and this has been a surprise of sorts for me)
> kids AREN'T always rational!  And, I really agree with everyone who
> mentioned that empty threats (of whatever nature) are damaging to
> the parent-child relationship.
> 
> My mind is still open though.  I'd really like to hear about methods
> of discipline that REALLY work as alternatives to spanking.  I would
> much prefer to remove that technique from my repertoire.  I cannot help
> but believe that children build up resentment somewhere after they
> have been spanked -- or else that they think they are intrinsically
> bad.

Two good points here.  The issue is control, not punishment.  Don't lose
control of your kids, or of yourself.  What kind of people so you want
your children to become?  It's easy to do the simplest reaction that you
think of first.  If you think kids need to be hit every month or two to
acquiesce to your rules, you will be more likely to spank.  

I think that kids are eager to please their parents, when they know what
to do.  They sometimes don't think about what they are doing.  They
sometimes test the limits of the rules.  They sometimes think only of
themselves.  Our most frequent response is a request to be more
civilized, i.e., to think of the effects of their actions on the others
around them.  Our most frequent punishment is quick, but short,
deprivation of whatever seems to be the immediate cause of the problem.
Lastly, we send them to their rooms for a fixed length of time - 10
minutes, or "until you stop ".  It really never occurs to me
to hit my kids.

> Charlie Perkins, IBM T.J. Watson Research
> philabs!v1!charliep,  perk%YKTVMX.BITNET@berkeley,  perk.yktvmx.ibm@csnet-relay

Not hopeful,
Allen
-- 
			Allen Matsumoto
			ITT Adv. Tech. Center, Stratford, CT 06497
			203-385-7218       
			(decvax!ittvax!allenm)