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From: hollombe@ttidcc.UUCP (Jerry Hollombe)
Newsgroups: net.flame
Subject: Re: Heinlein's arguments in _Starship Troopers_
Message-ID: <187@ttidcc.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 16-Jan-85 15:18:45 EST
Article-I.D.: ttidcc.187
Posted: Wed Jan 16 15:18:45 1985
Date-Received: Sun, 20-Jan-85 05:33:23 EST
Organization: TTI, Santa Monica, CA.
Lines: 61

>From: david@ukma.UUCP (David Herron, NPR Lover)
>Subject: Re: Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!!
>Message-ID: <491@ukma.UUCP>
>
>This recent discussion on Bernhard Goetz is strange.  I just saw this
>argument in _Starship_Troopers_ (For you uncivilized types, this is a
>book by Robert Heinlein) when I was re-reading it today.  Here is his
>argument (in a nutshell):
>
   [I'll spare the net the full quote.  You've seen it by now.]
>

Sigh.  Yet another Heinlein fanatic.  And what a book to  quote  from!  His
greatest  "glorification  of  war  and violence" novel ever.  I've read it,
several times in fact (ah, youth).  The punishment proposed in it for  most
misdemeanors  and  minor  felonies  is public flogging (e.g.: 50 lashes for
drunk driving), to give you an idea of where he's coming from. (Citizenship
and  the  right  to  vote are based on military service, but that's another
issue.) In fairness to Heinlein I must say that this is one  of  his  older
novels  and  most of the psychological research on violence and the effects
of punishment hadn't been done at the time he wrote it.

Well, the psychological research has been  done  now.  The  psych  journals
contain  scores  of  experimental  studies  on  the effects of violence and
punishment.  The common results:

		1) Violence breeds violence.
		2) Punishment has a quick but short lived effect on
		   behavior patterns.

For references see almost any study on child and/or spousal abuse  and  the
work of B.F. Skinner, just for a start.

The question really is, do we want to  punish  the  offenders  (i.e.:  take
revenge),  or  protect  society  from them?  If the former, then Heinlein's
methods may be appropriate.  If the latter, the next question is do we lock
them  away, kill them, or modify their behavior patterns?  The first two is
what we're doing now.

Given points 1)  and  2)  above  punishment/revenge  is  counter-productive
(sorry,  Heinlein).  Locking away is expensive and impermanent.  Killing is
unpopular and irreversable (we do make  mistakes).  Modifying  behavior  is
expensive,  uncertain,  and  unpopular.  Solution?  I  don't  have one, but
public flogging probably isn't it.

>I guess it is like any relationship.  The way it ends up has a lot to
>do with the way it started.  If it starts off bad then it is hard
>to correct later.  And it gets worse the longer you wait.

I couldn't have put it better myself.

-- 
==============================================================================
   ... sitting in a pile of junk on the runway, wondering what happened ...

The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe)
Citicorp TTI                               If thy CRT offend thee, pluck
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.                      it out and cast it from thee.
Santa Monica, California  90405
(213) 450-9111, ext. 2483
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