Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site utcsrgv.UUCP Path: utzoo!utcsrgv!west From: west@utcsrgv.UUCP (Thomas L. West) Newsgroups: net.women Subject: Re: More on crossing streets Message-ID: <619@utcsrgv.UUCP> Date: Wed, 2-Jan-85 04:21:07 EST Article-I.D.: utcsrgv.619 Posted: Wed Jan 2 04:21:07 1985 Date-Received: Wed, 2-Jan-85 04:41:47 EST References: <611@utcsrgv.UUCP> <1590@psuvax1.UUCP> Distribution: net Organization: CSRI, University of Toronto Lines: 114 [bug crossing a street] I feel I should reply to Daemon's attack on my article, so here goes... >> This bantering is getting a little overlong. Might we face some facts? > Perhaps it should (ideally) last until the problem is resolved, no? Er, yes. I guess it should. Point conceded. > Please keep in mind that the obviously racial remarks > below are *not* my own opinion. Thank you. And they CERTAINLY aren't mine. Just making that clear, thank you. The attack took the form of transforming what I considered the facts about the attitudes of a fair number of women towards strange males on deserted streets (fear) and what I thought that could be *immediately* done to allay this fear (not a whole lot except leaving the general proximity) and converting it to what could be considered facts on racial integration (some parents fear it) and what could be done to allay this fear (not a whole lot except stopping integration). The analogy was cute (I certainly did a double take) but quite incorrect. It is quite accurate to assume that there are certainly some parents who fear racial integration in the school system, and whose fears would only be laid to rest by a desegregated school system. This *is* fact. BUT (and it'sa BIG but) in the second case, the fear is worth putting up with because the results of integration are an enhanced view of those of other races. Hence nothing should be done to reduce those parents fears in the only way they could be. They are going to have to suffer. In the first case, however, I can't see the advantage in having the women suffer the fear any longer than is necessary. There appears to be only one solution, and that is to leave the close proximity. Since there is no advantage forgone by crossing the street, there is no reason not to do so, since there *is* and advantage (=reducing the woman's fear) in crossing the street. As for finding a better solution, if you find a short-term solution, please post it *immediately*. You'll be highly regarded in many people's books. (Well in mine, at least.) Of course, this street crossing business is no long term solution (I hope that's intinsically obvious to everyone) but *I* haven't heard of any more effective short term solution. Let me make it clear, however, that I don't accept it as the only solution, just the only short term one. Long term solutions are being worked on at the same time. This stop-gap *is* functional for short time periods, however. Tom West { allegra cornell decvax ihnp4 linus utzoo }!utcsrgv!west The posting being replied to follows: >> = me (west@utcsrgv) > = daemon (dae@psuvax1) >> (1) A fair number of women *do* view a strange male as a *potential* threat. >> There is *nothing* that can be done about it in the short run. Whether it >> can be construed as paranoia, natural caution, or whatever is totally >> irrelevant. The fact is that in certain settings, (eg deserted streets) >> we males DO cause fear in a large number of women by our very appearance. >> This is fact. >A fair number of "white" people view blacks in their school systems >as a threat to their children (NOT ME). Whether or not is can be >construed as paranoia, natural caution, or whatever is totally >irrelevant. The fact is ... This is fact. >> (2) There is no way that we can allay this fear with a smile or >> phrase. Our physical presence is the cause of fear, and in fact, a >> smile or phrase is likely to *increase* what fear exists. This is >> fact. >There is no way we can allay this fear with integration of the schools >(let alone smiling). It's been tried. Note the lack of lack of racial >tension in the South. >> (3) The only means of relieving the fear is to remove ourselves from the >> close physical proximity. This usually entails crossing a street. >> This (appears to be) fact. (Nobody has come up with an acceptable >> (to the women) alternative.) >The only means of relieving this fear is segregated school systems. >This (appears to be) fact. Nobody has come up with an acceptable >(to some whites) alternative. >> Given these facts, the outrage of various males about being viewed >> as *potential* assailants is pretty pathetic. They ARE viewed a >> potential assailants and there is nothing that can be done about it (in >> the short term). They can rant all they like, it's NOT going to change >> the fact. >Here's the real cutter. "Given these facts, the outrage of various >blacks about being viewed as potentially detrimental to white education >is pretty pathetic...They can rant all they like, it's NOT going to >change the fact." >> What it comes down to is this. In the face of these facts, we are >> *requested* to cross the road. NOT demanded. NOT expected. Just >> requested. >Julia Harper (jdh@hou5g.uucp -- where *did* that article go?) >asked very nicely. Patty (pardon me if I don't go look you up?) >said (tell me if I'm wrong) that she didn't feel it incumbent upon >men to cater to her (possible) paranoia. There are quite a few >others (won't mention by name, and will *not* say "the rest") >who *have* been demanding, expecting, and downright rude. >I might add that it's not just a request if, when you answer >"no", you are berated. >> The original posting was well merited. I was unaware of this fear >> that existed (yes, and dismayed that it exists). I thank the poster >> for the (albeit unpleasant) insight into one aspect of women's lives. >I do, too. It bothers me that I (I am told I look somewhat more >fearsome than the norm) am likely to be feared by random women I meet >on the street. I'd like to dispell whatever of this feeling I can, and >that is why I'm so bothered that Tom feels that I should just accept >that I'm terrifying instead of trying to do something about it. >Women: is there anything I *can* do? I'll adopt street-crossing >if there's not, but I don't see that as a permanent solution.