Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/5/84; site aecom.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!allegra!bellcore!decvax!genrad!teddy!panda!talcott!harvard!seismo!cmcl2!philabs!aecom!teitz From: teitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz) Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish Subject: Re: Re: Re: Jews for Jesus Message-ID: <1097@aecom.UUCP> Date: Tue, 15-Jan-85 13:24:31 EST Article-I.D.: aecom.1097 Posted: Tue Jan 15 13:24:31 1985 Date-Received: Sun, 20-Jan-85 05:34:15 EST References: <186@teklds.UUCP> <246@whuxi.UUCP> <210@philabs.UUCP> Organization: Albert Einstein Coll. of Med., NY Lines: 157 Very long quote at end. I have long wondered about the Jews for Jesus, and this article cleared many things up for me. I wondered why Jews believed in Jesus and how far this belief went. Do they think he was the messiah and that's it meaning they still observe all the mitzvot ( according to whomever you choose ) or do they go further and adopt christian beliefs? If the former is true then I have one thing to say: If we now are living in the times of the messiah then why do we not have the Temple? The Messiah is supposed to lead us out of our exile ( which we are still in, even if we control Israel ), and set up the monarchy of King David, along with the rebuilding of the Temple. Why has this not occurred? Why are Jews still being killed and persecuted for being Jews. Why ha G-D's kingdom not been recognized across the land? If you'll tell me that the messiah came and left because the world was messed up, well, all I can say is why didn't he fix the world? ( Which is a question I have in general of christianity, why did Jesus have to die to atone for our sins? If he was god why not correct the problems. Also why did he let himself get killed? Why not destroy those who wanted to kill him? ) Back to our discussion. Why do you say that there will be a second coming, something we were never told about. We were promised a redeemer, who will come, and it seems he will need come only once. It's just as easy to say the messiah hasn't come yet as it is to say he came, left, and will return. I fear though that Jews who assume that Jesus is more than just another Jew are taking a little more than just the fact that he was the messiah from christianity. You write of the father and the spirit, clearly christian ideas. In Judaism there is no father and there is no son. The Messiah is no more G-Dly than I am. Jesus was a Jew and I am too. In fact when people tell me he was a son of G-D, I say I am too, and I'm Jewish to boot, does that mean that I should be worshipped? The spirit of G-D is prophesy, something we haven't had since the beginning of the second Temple era, and Jesus came towards the end. So the Jews for Jesus aren't just accepting Jesus as the Jewish messiah. Rather they are accepting christian ideas and ideals. This is the problem with this group. They cloak missionising for christianity in Jewish terms. And they say that they are practicing Jews. This is truly the worst enemy of the Jews. Those who parade as Jews and would have us believe this while their intentions ( whether they realize this or not ) are otherwise. You might not believe that there is anything unjewish in Jews for Jesus but there are subtleties in their literature which you might not realize. Read their material carefully ( I can't bring examples off hand since I don't have my material here ). I have run out of time so I'll wait for the flames to toast me before my next article on the matter. Flame away, I'm prepared this time. Eliyahu Teitz. > >>Karen asks: > >> "Why the fear of such an organization?" > > > Ken Wolman answers: > > > > First of all, Jesus is generally regarded by believing Christians > > as the fulfillment of the Davidic prophecies supposedly peppered > > throughout the Tanach, especially in Isaiah. He is believed to be > > the messiah. No Jew accepts this. NO Jew: and I include here not > > only the Orthodox voices that are the majority on this net, but > > also Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionist-identifying Jews. > > Wrong. What about Jews for Jesus. Are they not Jews. Or are they not > because you and other Jews on the net (now the ultimate authority, huh?:-) > decide they're not? Who's the judge anyway? Is not G-d the Judge of > His own people? It is probably your responsibility to inform and/or warn > fellow Jews of their misunderstanding (in YOUR opinion) just as it is > ours to warn you (of OUR opinion). I know...I've been warned and > have warned and I realize the validity of this action from both sides. > > > At some point in the so-called Middle Ages, probably around the > > fifth or sixth centuries CE (I rely on historians for corrections > > here), the Jews attained pariah status in Western civilization. No > > need to recount the restrictive laws passed in the Teutonic states, > > in France, in England, in the Byzantine empire. No need to give > > ghastly details of the persecutions, murders, "trials of the > > Talmud," and expulsions from country to country. Jews were an on- > > going source of horror to believing Christians because their in- > > sistence on holding to their faith and ways undercut the essential > > Christian belief that the life of "Jesus Christ" ended the "old > > law" and obviated the need for the Jews to remain Jews. Here was > > a nation of men and women who said "No. It wasn't him." > > Jesus never "ended the old law." As has been discussed in net.religion. > christian, Jesus not only came to fullfill the law (every letter), He > came to reveal G-d, the Father, to both Jews and Gentiles. He never > said that Jews should not obey the law. This is something that is left > for the Jews to decide. However, it was revealed through the Spirit to > Paul that the Gentiles did not have to become Jews first before accepting > the teachings of Jesus. Paul states that if a Jew chooses to observe > the law (as to G-d and not men, i.e. for the purpose of enhancing his > relationship with G-d) we should not stumble him in any way but respect > this and observe also in his presence. > > > So why our fear of Jew for Jesus? Why our disgust? Why do you > > have to ask? Do you believe that there are Christian sects that > > have given up on us, officially or unofficially? > > You haven't truly answered these first two questions. Why the "fear"? > Are Jews afraid of being persecuted by Jews? Is it the teachings of > Jesus that necessitate the persecution of Jews? Or do you think maybe > it's more the nature of the people involved. Not all persecution has > been Christian to Jew and, for that matter, not all persecution has been > religious in nature. Disgust of persecution is understandable; but for > the teachings of a man who was an observant Jew and may very well have > fullfilled the prophesies of the "awaited messiah" is not understandable. > If you have deemed Him not the messiah for some reason, then it is more > understandable indeed. > > Christians are just responsible for telling people the good news > as given to them by Jesus (a Jewish Prophet) and His apostles (given > authority by Jesus). They will not stop doing that, I guarantee. > Christ is preached for every conceivable reason and not all of them > (the reasons) are upright or sincere. It is from this insincerity > (probably jealousy, envy or some other foolish emotion) that such > persecutions as you have mentioned arise. And this insincerity is > the anti-thesis of Jesus' teaching (just read Proverbs and then > the accounts of the gospel). > > >Do you believe that > > the supposed "friends" of the Jews such as Revs. Falwell and > > Robertson support the state of Israel from altruistic motives, or > > because they believe that the restoration of the Jews to their > > land is the first step toward the CONVERSION of those same Jews to > > acceptance of "Jesus Christ" as the messiah? > > As stated above, there are many motives involved in preaching Christ, > not all of them are upright and in line with His teachings. I am not > here to judge the Falwells et al. but rather, I judge my own relation- > ship with G-d and ask Him to show Mercy on me as King David did. > > >Do you believe that > > if they fail--as they will--their wrath at the Jews' "stubborness" > > will be any less palpable than that of a Medieval Bishop or > > Cardinal in Mainz, Paris, or Cologne? Finally, do you believe that > > today's Jews--observant or not--can tolerate a group whose motives > > are at best suspect, and at worst directed toward our extinction? > > It is questionable to say that the Jews will never accept Jesus as > their messiah. He says they will. I do not dispute that. But I > know it may not (necessarily) be because of Christian evangelism, > for most it will be when He comes in all His glory. There will be > no questions then. > > Julie Harazduk > philabs!jah > > "I didn't start it...I just saw it here and couldn't resist the > opportunity to discuss my faith." - A Jew who knows Jesus. *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE ***