Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/17/84; site ittvax.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!allegra!bellcore!decvax!ittvax!allenm From: allenm@ittvax.UUCP (Allen Matsumoto) Newsgroups: net.kids Subject: Re: How to discipline short of spanking Message-ID: <1587@ittvax.UUCP> Date: Tue, 8-Jan-85 15:46:02 EST Article-I.D.: ittvax.1587 Posted: Tue Jan 8 15:46:02 1985 Date-Received: Fri, 11-Jan-85 06:46:02 EST References: <286@ho95b.UUCP> <911@ihuxb.UUCP> <121@v1.UUCP> Organization: ITT-ATC, Stratford Ct. Lines: 104 I think discipline is very much a matter of personal choice. There is certainly no agreement on cause/effect relationships for types of punishments or rewards. But there is a lot in this article which bothers me, so I am trying to respond to this calmly. To make my position explicit, I am opposed to spanking. I don't believe spanking is good for raising children. I don't see how it could avoid encouraging violence. The occasional use of spanking must be tempered with copious amounts of love (if violence has to be resorted to at all). > I have to come out in favor of spanking. We resort to this only > rarely (every month or two) -- and it is usually in response to > some obviously defiant behavior. I don't consider "every month or two" to be even close to "rarely." I have hit my eldest once when she was 3 and was about to run into the street without looking. The one spanking was a quick swat, and it achieved more surprise than pain; she was really astounded that I actually hit her. The surprise was the most effective part of the entire affair. I haven't spanked either of our other children (yet?). It seems to me that anyone who thinks monthly is rare, must have a frightening belief of what "normal spanking" would be. Obviously we aren't talking about child abuse, but that's still a lot more spanking than I would have imagined parents have to resort to. Am I completely unrealistic in this? I don't think once a year would bother me (much), but once a month? > Since our first line of discipline is sending our daughter to bed, > spanking usually happens there, too. We try to overcome the bad > associations of bed by reading stories, etc. there. This makes sense to me. What about the bad associations of being hit at all, though? Don't all kids display "obviously defiant behavior"? Isn't that just part of growing up? You, the adult, are supposed to do better than she. Don't just react to her behavior. > Someone mentioned that screaming was their daughter's right. I think > there is merit to this idea, but when I want to sleep, I cannot > allow our daughter to scream on and on. Besides which, I really > think that she sometimes is crying out of meanness. Doesn't this tell you something? (You imply below you don't think kids are inherently "mean".) You think there is meanness in screaming in bed. Doesn't your child think there is meanness in your hitting her? What are her choices in this kind of situation? She can do exactly what you tell her meekly, or she can oppose you in the only way she currently knows. What will happen when she grows up? She'll have learned to do what she is told, or she'll learn more extreme ways of opposing you. Would you like either of those? > My wife was until recently a preschool teacher, and she is convinced > that one of the things that would have been most helpful for the > kids is an occasional spanking! Really, the things she told me would > make you want to spank the kids too -- like when they come to her and > kick her on the shins. If you knew my wife, you would know that she > is sinfully meek, so that I am sure she does not provoke such attacks. I agree all kids need firm discipline. This does not necessarily mean spanking, though. Again, adults have other ways of dealing with kids than resorting to physical punishment. We are not just bigger than they, are we? > I agree with the parent who said that discipline should be used > sparingly. For us, usually an explanation or a warning will be all > that is required. But (and this has been a surprise of sorts for me) > kids AREN'T always rational! And, I really agree with everyone who > mentioned that empty threats (of whatever nature) are damaging to > the parent-child relationship. > > My mind is still open though. I'd really like to hear about methods > of discipline that REALLY work as alternatives to spanking. I would > much prefer to remove that technique from my repertoire. I cannot help > but believe that children build up resentment somewhere after they > have been spanked -- or else that they think they are intrinsically > bad. Two good points here. The issue is control, not punishment. Don't lose control of your kids, or of yourself. What kind of people so you want your children to become? It's easy to do the simplest reaction that you think of first. If you think kids need to be hit every month or two to acquiesce to your rules, you will be more likely to spank. I think that kids are eager to please their parents, when they know what to do. They sometimes don't think about what they are doing. They sometimes test the limits of the rules. They sometimes think only of themselves. Our most frequent response is a request to be more civilized, i.e., to think of the effects of their actions on the others around them. Our most frequent punishment is quick, but short, deprivation of whatever seems to be the immediate cause of the problem. Lastly, we send them to their rooms for a fixed length of time - 10 minutes, or "until you stop". It really never occurs to me to hit my kids. > Charlie Perkins, IBM T.J. Watson Research > philabs!v1!charliep, perk%YKTVMX.BITNET@berkeley, perk.yktvmx.ibm@csnet-relay Not hopeful, Allen -- Allen Matsumoto ITT Adv. Tech. 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