Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/5/84; site uwmacc.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!allegra!bellcore!decvax!genrad!teddy!panda!talcott!harvard!seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!dubois From: dubois@uwmacc.UUCP (Paul DuBois) Newsgroups: net.religion.christian Subject: Jews for Jesus Message-ID: <655@uwmacc.UUCP> Date: Fri, 11-Jan-85 12:56:12 EST Article-I.D.: uwmacc.655 Posted: Fri Jan 11 12:56:12 1985 Date-Received: Sun, 13-Jan-85 08:10:43 EST Distribution: net Organization: UW-Madison Primate Center Lines: 72 I received the following message in the mail recently. I am posting it because I think it is a thoughtful response, certainly a level above some of the others that have appeared (that's not to put them ALL down, but some were just raving). Note at end that the author granted permission to post. ------ [DuBois] What about groups such as Jews for Jesus? I regard such groups as oxymoronic in name, and deceptive in practice. A rabbi I once knew felt that the name made as much sense as, say, "Hookers for Chastity". What about people such as Julie Harazduk? She's a Christian, who was once Jewish. How about Saul of Tarsus? Did he stop being Jewish when he became a Christian? A more complex question -- by today's standards, yes; by the standards of the time, he probably did not feel that way. Over the last 2000 years, Judaism and Christianity have in a sense co-evolved. That is, there are precepts and practices in Judaism that exist solely as a response to Christianity. For example, except in a very restricted fashion, Jews no longer kneel during prayer. Christianity has behaved in the same fashion; the best example is the rules for calculating the start of Easter, which were designed to prevent coincidence with Passover. (They're not perfect, incidentally.) One absolute precept of Judaism -- accepted by all branches of the religion -- is that Jesus of Nazareth was *not* the Messiah of Jewish tradition. One cannot believe that he was/is and still be a Jew -- it's that simple. A matter of definition, perhaps -- and I deny the right of non-Jews to define who is theologically a Jew. What is my opinion of former Jews who are now Christians of some sort? Well, that depends on why they converted. If they did it for social reasons -- being Jewish is *different*, hence bad -- I have nothing but contempt for them. If they find a spirituality in Christianity that they never looked for in Judaism, I feel sad. And if they honestly think that Christianity is the Truth and the Way -- well, they've chosen a different path, and I'm not competent to judge them. To some extent, the so-called Jewish Christians are just a Christian sect; they differ from others in both their ethnic heritage and in their theological attitude towards the laws of Judaism. But from my vantage point, their differences in ritual and belief are minor compared with, say, that between Catholics and modern "non-denominational Bible Christians". On the other hand, I do regard their names and their style of proselytizing as self-deceptive at best, often intellectually dishonest, and possibly fraudulent. There exists the widespread suspicion in the Jewish community that such groups are being deliberately led and exploited as a vehicle to convert Jews -- by people who know what they're doing. Is that true? I'm not saying it is. But at some point there is an absolute line between Judaism and Christianity, and acceptance of Jesus as the Christ is that line. --Steve Bellovin P.S. Out of courtesy, I've refrained from posting this to net.religion. christian; feel free to repost it if you'd like. ---- Thanks, Steve, for your reply. -- Paul DuBois {allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!dubois | "And the streets shall be full of boys and girls playing --+-- in the streets thereof..." | Zechariah 8:5 |