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From: david@fisher.UUCP (David Rubin)
Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish,net.politics
Subject: Re: Tutu Makes a DooDoo
Message-ID: <483@fisher.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 16-Jan-85 09:25:00 EST
Article-I.D.: fisher.483
Posted: Wed Jan 16 09:25:00 1985
Date-Received: Thu, 17-Jan-85 04:47:03 EST
References: <95@mit-athena.ARPA> <466@fisher.UUCP>, <351@pyuxd.UUCP> <28@mit-athena.ARPA>
Organization: Princeton Univ. Statistics
Lines: 106
Xref: watmath net.religion.jewish:1278 net.politics:6909

>>> == Dave Rubin
>> == Richard Rosen
> == Joachim Martillo
 == David Rubin redux

>>> Regarding nationalism, I suggest Martillo not limit his diatribes to
>>> Moslems.  It seems almost all nationalistic movements, even if they
>>> begin constructively (preservation of culture, furthering of identity,
>>> advancement of education), assume malevolent form (supression of other
>>> nationalities).  It is not something peculiar to Arabs or Islam, nor
>>> something from which Jews are themselves immune.

>>HEAR HEAR!!!  Well said!  May Martillo call you a "cosmopolitan vus-vus".
>>(I consider that a high honor if ever there was one.  No smiley
>>intended.)

>Yet  another  example  of  Richard  Rosen's  fossilized  leftist Vus-Vus
>hypocrisy.   In  net.religion,  Rosen  will  dump  on  Christianity  and
>Christian  clerics  for  the tiniest possible reason.  Now Tutu, a major
>Christian cleric makes a statement which with inane generosity would  be
>called  ignorantly  insensitive  in  an  area  which Tutu as a bishop is
>supposed to be an expert.  Res ipsa loquitur. If Falwell  had  expressed
>similar  sentiments  Rubin  and  Rosen would have squealed.

Not necessarily.  It would not disturb my perceptions terribly to find
Falwell as ignorant of Judaism as Tutu. 

>Traditional
>Christian anti-Semitism is  avoided  nowadays  by  mainstream  Christian
>Churches  and  by  the Moral Majority.  But Tutu as a leftist is able to
>combine  traditional  Christian  anti-Semitism  and  radical  New   Left
>anti-Semitism.   Since  Rosen  and  Rubin  are grovelers who prize their
>connections to a non-Jewish community via leftist  movements  more  than
>any   tie   to  the  Jewish  community,  they will  make  apologies  and
>rationalizations for any leftist barbarism even  if  that  barbarism  is
>directed  at them themselves.  Their behavior is just like the Ashkenazi
>quislings in the Soviet Union who apologized for Soviet anti-Semitism as
>a way of mobilizing the masses for the good of the Marxist cause.

Me, a leftist?  Surely you jest. Unless, of course, you consider, say,
Howard Baker, a leftist...

Those who advocated the new order in the Soviet Union after the
revolution of 1917 believed that Russian anti-Semitism would die out
without the impetus it had been receiving from the government.  Their
thesis was never adequately tested, as Stalin rose to power less than
a generation after the revolution.  At worst, they MIGHT have been
mistaken.  That does not make them quislings.  

Christian anti-Semitism not practiced by the Fundamentalist Right? I
think that Martillo is mistaken (and thus as much of a "quisling" as
the Soviet Jews who sided with the 1917 revolution).  Perhaps he needs
to hear a Fundamentalist preacher denounce Jewish "control" of the
media and banking to be brought back to his senses.  The
Fundamentalists  are not as virulent as they once were (score one for
progress), but to state the Fundamentalist Right has been purged of
its anti-Semitism is an exercise in wishful thinking. As for Tutu's
supposed blending of Christian and leftist (the difference between the
two brands seems contrived to me), this diatribe serves only to 
distract the readers of this group from the lack of satisfactory
response from Martillo to challenges to demonstrate ANY
anti-Semitism on Tutu's part.  We're still waiting.  

>By  the way, if Rubin and Rosen bothered to read my articles, they would
>note that I constantly dump on Zionism not for what Zionism did to  Arab
>Muslims  about  whom  I  could  not care less but for the abuses Zionism
>committed on Sefardic and oriental Jews.  Members of my  family  are  of
>the  opinion  that  voting  in Israeli elections may be a violation of a
>mitswah mide'oraita' (commandment in the pentateuch).  I  personally  am
>strongly  anti-Nationalist and therefore recommend immediate subjugation
>of Muslim nations which would then  be  returned  to  European  colonial
>rule.

I have bothered, and am fully aware of such.  Perhaps it is time to
note, that however culturally arrogant Ashkenazic Zionists may have
been, 

	(1) Martillo exceeds them, and
	(2) Sephardic Jews would still be living in Muslim societies
	    but for their efforts.

>While I am perfectly willing to dump on apartheid, Castro's treatment of
>homosexuals, PRC mistreatment of peasants, or India's forced sterilation
>program, I concentrate my attacks on  Muslim  barbarism  because  Muslim
>barbarism  is  directed  against  me, my family, and my people.  This is
>simply the common  sense  of  self-preservation  which  self-destructive
>VusVusim  like  Rosen  and  Rubin would not understand.  They would have
>made good members of the Verband deutscher Nationaler Juden  (League  of
>German  National  Jews  --  Jews who voted for Hitler).  Statements that
>Rosen made on the impropriety of defining him as a Jew and as  a  member
>of  the  Jewish  community  via  Jewish  law  were  quite typical of the
>sentiments of members of this political organization.

Granted, Muslim barbarism is the most immediate threat to Jews in
the Near East.  Self-preservation (a moral necessity) does not compel
me to seek the utter annihilation of those who have persecuted me.
Else, I'd be demanding a world populated only by Jews.  Perhaps that
is what Martillo is driving at.

I'd suggest (so long as the mud is flying) that Martillo would have
made a better member of the Verband der Deutsche Nationale Juden, as
it would provide an excellent means to eliminate leftist influence on
effette Ashkenazi Jews.

					David Rubin
			{allegra|astrovax|princeton}!fisher!david