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Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/17/84 chuqui version 1.7 9/23/84; site nsc.UUCP
Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxr!ihnp4!nsc!chuqui
From: chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Chuqui Q. Koala)
Newsgroups: net.news.group
Subject: Re: Divisions of net.unix*
Message-ID: <2164@nsc.UUCP>
Date: Sun, 6-Jan-85 12:25:36 EST
Article-I.D.: nsc.2164
Posted: Sun Jan  6 12:25:36 1985
Date-Received: Mon, 7-Jan-85 03:26:26 EST
References: <2157@nsc.UUCP> <870@amdahl.UUCP>
Reply-To: chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Chuqui Q. Koala)
Distribution: net
Organization: The Warlocks Cave
Lines: 87
Summary: 


 
>Well, here are a few problems that I'd like to see solved:
>
>	[1] Stuff in net.unix and net.unix-wizards that don't
>	    belong there; like what should be going to net.lang.c,
>	    or net.text ("how come nroff does thus and such ...?"),
>	    or to net.flame or net.politics.

Hey! I agree with Gordon (put away those silly trumpets!) In fact, I'll
generalize his comment-- "I want to see stuff anywhere that it doesn't
belong (net.general, net.singles. net.religion, net.foo, net.wobegon) moved
to where it DOES belong or taken out of distribution. 

>	[2] Stuff in net.unix-wizards that should be in net.unix
>	    ("I've noticed this peculiar behavior of the C-shell....")

See above. Another agreement (get away from me with that marching band!)

>	[3] And finally (here's the important part) stuff in
>	    net.unix-wizards that isn't so much about Unix as it is
>	    about hardware:  stuff about DEVICE DRIVERS for VAXES and
>	    PDP-11s  Presumably this is boring to each group oppositely,
>	    but it is particularly boring to those of us who don't use
>	    Vaxes and PDP-11's.  (This number is expected to rise...).

I don't really agree with this-- most of the hardware oriented can be
relevant to other implementations in theory, at least. I think if we take
care of the duplications and garbage this area is a small enough percentage
to not really matter...

>Now, this does boarder on flame (hey, but why break tradition?), and
>device drivers do have a place in Unix discussions, but considering
>the volume in net.unix and net.unix-wizards, a lot of the machine-
>specific stuff could be hearded off to one side and readers can
>unsubscribe to newsgroups refering to hardware that they never
>use.

I think if we heard off the chaff, the few kernels of wheat that aren't
appropriate to your own specific implementation shouldn't really bother
you. I'm not really interested in Pyramids, UTS, SYSVR99, PDP11's, UTS, or
anything basically non-berkeley, but I'd scream loudly at a suggestion of
net.unix-wizards.usg, net.unix-wizards.bsd, etc. because there IS USG stuff
that is interesting to keep an eye on. I don't want to see us split it up,
I do want to see us clean it up.

>So, that's the problem.  Now can I get a little cooperation here
>about solving the problem?  Thank you.

The basic problem is one of knowledge. The net has finally grown to the
point where not everyone on the net really understands the uses of the
groups. Part of it is because there isn't a commitment on the part of many
admins to make sure that new readers get a little tutoring, part of it is
because the large number of newsgroups out there have the net at a level of
complexity that cause new users confusion about what is really going on,
part of it is because the names of the topics aren't always clear (i.e.
net.general), and part of it is because we've never figured out how to
reach these new users and get them the information they need to use the net
intelligently. I can only think of two ways to fix the problem:

    1) figure out how to get all users to understand how to properly post
    to the net, educating them as to appropriate topics and appropriate
    ethics.

    2) Put someone between the posters and the readers that can help the
    posters when neccessary and protect the readers if required. This is
    called (*gasp*) a moderator.

We've tried education in a number of ways, including my rewrite of the
Emily-Post document, net.announce.newusers, screaming, yelling, writing
notes, frothing at the mouth, and generally trying to help people every way
we can think of. As far as I can tell, every time we help one new users
become a better poster on the net, three new naive people show up to
mispost in their place. That is not the kind of learning curve I like.

Moderators STILL have a lot of potential, but in many ways they haven't
proven themselves. I STILL want to see them work, and I'm still working on
getting them to work better, but I don't think we can rely on them yet.
Unfortunately, they are the only way I see to reliably remove the garbage
from an overused topic. 

chuq
-- 
From the ministry of silly talks:		Chuq Von Rospach
{allegra,cbosgd,decwrl,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui  nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA

Now look here Mister "I'm not just a word processor"...