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From: jah@philabs.UUCP (Julie Harazduk)
Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish
Subject: Re: Re: Jews for Jesus
Message-ID: <210@philabs.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 11-Jan-85 16:31:54 EST
Article-I.D.: philabs.210
Posted: Fri Jan 11 16:31:54 1985
Date-Received: Mon, 14-Jan-85 04:38:33 EST
References: <186@teklds.UUCP> <246@whuxi.UUCP>
Organization: Philips Labs, Briarcliff Manor, NY
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>>Karen asks:
>> "Why the fear of such an organization?"

> Ken Wolman answers: 
> 
> First of all, Jesus is generally regarded by believing Christians
> as the fulfillment of the Davidic prophecies supposedly peppered
> throughout the Tanach, especially in Isaiah.  He is believed to be
> the messiah.  No Jew accepts this.  NO Jew: and I include here not
> only the Orthodox voices that are the majority on this net, but
> also Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionist-identifying Jews.

Wrong.  What about Jews for Jesus.  Are they not Jews. Or are they not
because you and other Jews on the net (now the ultimate authority, huh?:-)
decide they're not?  Who's the judge anyway?  Is not G-d the Judge of 
His own people?  It is probably your responsibility to inform and/or warn
fellow Jews of their misunderstanding (in YOUR opinion) just as it is
ours to warn you (of OUR opinion). I know...I've been warned and
have warned and I realize the validity of this action from both sides.

> At some point in the so-called Middle Ages, probably around the
> fifth or sixth centuries CE (I rely on historians for corrections
> here), the Jews attained pariah status in Western civilization.  No
> need to recount the restrictive laws passed in the Teutonic states,
> in France, in England, in the Byzantine empire.  No need to give
> ghastly details of the persecutions, murders, "trials of the
> Talmud," and expulsions from country to country.  Jews were an on-
> going source of horror to believing Christians because their in-
> sistence on holding to their faith and ways undercut the essential
> Christian belief that the life of "Jesus Christ" ended the "old
> law" and obviated the need for the Jews to remain Jews.  Here was
> a nation of men and women who said "No.  It wasn't him." 

Jesus never "ended the old law."  As has been discussed in net.religion.
christian, Jesus not only came to fullfill the law (every letter), He
came to reveal G-d, the Father, to both Jews and Gentiles.  He never
said that Jews should not obey the law.  This is something that is left
for the Jews to decide.  However, it was revealed through the Spirit to
Paul that the Gentiles did not have to become Jews first before accepting
the teachings of Jesus.  Paul states that if a Jew chooses to observe
the law (as to G-d and not men, i.e. for the purpose of enhancing his
relationship with G-d) we should not stumble him in any way but respect
this and observe also in his presence.

> So why our fear of Jew for Jesus?  Why our disgust?  Why do you
> have to ask?  Do you believe that there are Christian sects that
> have given up on us, officially or unofficially?  

You haven't truly answered these first two questions.  Why the "fear"?
Are Jews afraid of being persecuted by Jews?  Is it the teachings of
Jesus that necessitate the persecution of Jews?  Or do you think maybe
it's more the nature of the people involved.  Not all persecution has
been Christian to Jew and, for that matter, not all persecution has been 
religious in nature.  Disgust of persecution is understandable; but for
the teachings of a man who was an observant Jew and may very well have
fullfilled the prophesies of the "awaited messiah" is not understandable.
If you have deemed Him not the messiah for some reason, then it is more
understandable indeed.  

Christians are just responsible for telling people the good news
as given to them by Jesus (a Jewish Prophet) and His apostles (given
authority by Jesus).  They will not stop doing that, I guarantee.
Christ is preached for every conceivable reason and not all of them
(the reasons) are upright or sincere.  It is from this insincerity
(probably jealousy, envy or some other foolish emotion) that such
persecutions as you have mentioned arise.  And this insincerity is
the anti-thesis of Jesus' teaching (just read Proverbs and then
the accounts of the gospel).

>Do you believe that
> the supposed "friends" of the Jews such as Revs. Falwell and
> Robertson support the state of Israel from altruistic motives, or
> because they believe that the restoration of the Jews to their
> land is the first step toward the CONVERSION of those same Jews to
> acceptance of "Jesus Christ" as the messiah?  

As stated above, there are many motives involved in preaching Christ,
not all of them are upright and in line with His teachings.  I am not
here to judge the Falwells et al. but rather, I judge my own relation-
ship with G-d and ask Him to show Mercy on me as King David did.

>Do you believe that
> if they fail--as they will--their wrath at the Jews' "stubborness"
> will be any less palpable than that of a Medieval Bishop or
> Cardinal in Mainz, Paris, or Cologne?  Finally, do you believe that
> today's Jews--observant or not--can tolerate a group whose motives
> are at best suspect, and at worst directed toward our extinction?

It is questionable to say that the Jews will never accept Jesus as
their messiah.  He says they will.  I do not dispute that.  But I
know it may not (necessarily) be because of Christian evangelism,
for most it will be when He comes in all His glory.  There will be
no questions then.

Julie Harazduk
philabs!jah

"I didn't start it...I just saw it here and couldn't resist the
opportunity to discuss my faith."  - A Jew who knows Jesus.