Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/5/84; site spp2.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!allegra!bellcore!decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdcrdcf!trwrb!trwspp!spp2!jhull From: jhull@spp2.UUCP Newsgroups: net.politics Subject: Re: A statistic on poverty [2] Message-ID: <325@spp2.UUCP> Date: Tue, 18-Dec-84 14:41:01 EST Article-I.D.: spp2.325 Posted: Tue Dec 18 14:41:01 1984 Date-Received: Fri, 21-Dec-84 00:38:43 EST References: <251@gargoyle.UChicago.UUCP> Reply-To: jhull@spp2.UUCP (Jeff Hull) Organization: TRW, Redondo Beach CA Lines: 103 Summary: In article <251@gargoyle.UChicago.UUCP> carnes@gargoyle.UUCP (Richard Carnes) writes: >Continuing my dissection of Alien's article: >>Usually the main reason was vice. > >Cigarettes are an addiction, not a vice. Obviously, the poor should give up >smoking while the affluent continue to puff away. Alcoholism is a serious >and tragic illness, not a vice. Eating junk food is the result of poor >education, bombardment with advertising, and various factors which together >can be called the "culture of poverty" (see below), but it is not a vice. >You forgot to mention gambling. Chronic gambling is an addiction, not a >vice. Lots of poor people throw away their money on state lotteries. This >is not a vice; it is seen by them as perhaps the only way to escape their >dreary world. Don't get me started on lotteries. Well, I suppose they're >better than playing the numbers rackets. > This kind of apology makes me nauseous. Everyone is responsible for his/her actions and irresponsible people like you telling the poor or anyone else they are not responsible for their situation does more harm than anything else. Yes, I acknowledge the societal factors that put the poor in their situation; they need correction. Yes, I acknowledge the addictive properties of nicotine and alcohol; people kick their habits every day. No, I am not advocating abandoning the poor to their current situation; but they have to want out enough to do their part of the process. Alien has done so. While I donot know your history, in your articles do not indicate that you have lived this situation. You might try to learn something from someone who has. >>I've had some rather enlightening talks with social workers. One family >>that spent their entire allowance of Food Stamps on soda and potato chips. >>That's all they ate. The rest of their money went to support their father's >>4 pack a day habit and alcoholism. > >Yes, the familiar and comforting image of the shiftless, irresponsible poor. All your rantings will not change the truth. While many in America may use such an image to justify their non-participation and lack of support for efforts to improve the lot of Americans less well off than themselves, that doesn't change the fact that many of the poor are poor today because they are not willing to be anything else. My personal experience includes donating my time to build a housing project for low income people near Ga Tech . My income as a full time student was significantly below the poverty line [about $3600/year in 1973] and significantly below that of many of the people who moved into the project. The dorms and apartments occupied by many Ga Tech students were significantly worse than the newly finished project. Less than 4 years from the time the project was turned over to the poor it was intended for, it was a slum. The people who moved in were not willing to live a middle America lifestyle, EVEN WHEN IT WAS GIVEN TO THEM FOR FREE. The facts are the current giveaway programs DO NOT WORK. I am not against poor people but I am against helping people be poor. And that is what the current programs do. We need to create assistance programs that support people in saving themselves, that show people how they can support themselves, not programs that tell people, "You poor schmuck. Of course you can't take care of yourself. Here. Let me pay your way for you." >Most non-poor Americans simply don't have the faintest idea of what life is >like for most of the poor population. From Michael Harrington: This description is very accurate. So let's develop programs that break the cycle while building up the self-esteem of the people involved. That's what will get them out of their situation. >"Poverty in the US is a culture, an institution, a way of life.... This is what I am talking about. What is needed is the destruction of poverty as a way of life. And the key is building up self-esteem followed by education and training. > >Richard Carnes, ihnp4!gargoyle!carnes There is a very serious moral and political issue here: should government [especially the federal government] be involved in anti-poverty programs at all? What justification is there for forcibly taking my property and giving it to someone else? Voluntary charity programs, for example, those administered by various churches and temples, are a totally different thing. No. I don't know how to ensure that they are funded at the level needed to take over the load. But I think there are enough creative people out there who could figure it out. I'm sure that some combination of tax protection for donations and advertising and soliciting [or other things I haven't even considered] can be found that will do the job. I absolutely agree, with no reservations, that we, as a society, have a duty to our poorer citizens. We must find a way to allow them to participate in the American dream. But what we are doing today DOES NOT WORK. And increasing the amount of money we pour into existing programs will not change that. We've tried that for 20 years and we are no closer to a solution than when we started. Let me repeat my main point: I am not against poor people. I am against helping people be poor. -- Blessed Be, jhull@spp2.UUCP Jeff Hull trwspp!spp2!jhull@trwrb.UUCP 13817 Yukon Ave. Hawthorne, CA 90250