Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/5/84; site spp1.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!allegra!bellcore!decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdcrdcf!trwrb!trwspp!spp2!spp1!johnston From: johnston@spp1.UUCP Newsgroups: net.abortion Subject: Re: Re: When does life begin? IT DOESN'T! Message-ID: <140@spp1.UUCP> Date: Mon, 17-Dec-84 18:35:27 EST Article-I.D.: spp1.140 Posted: Mon Dec 17 18:35:27 1984 Date-Received: Thu, 20-Dec-84 03:33:28 EST References: <1203@bbncca.ARPA>, <139@spp1.UUCP> <1191@shark.UUCP> Organization: TRW, Redondo Beach CA Lines: 79 > XY From: johnston@spp1.UUCP > XY > ... > XY > Given that, moral issues, like abortion, ought to be decided on criteria > XY > that are the most important & meaningful for human beings & their lives > XY > as we know them. Fetuses may be complex organisms & biologically alive, > XY > but it doesn't easily follow that, just because of that, they are human. > XY > Cheers, > XY > Ron Rizzo > XY > XY I'm a little confused. In the first sentence is a phrase "human beings & > XY their lives". I've always assummed that I was a member of this class. Yet > XY I find from the second sentence that while a fetus, though complex and > XY alive, I may not have been human. Since I don't recall passing an > XY acceptance test, I'm beginning to get worried. If there is criteria for > XY becoming a human from a complex, biologically alive organism of homo > XY sapiens, I'd better apply. After all, I've been lying on my resume. > XY Mike Johnston > > I think you are more than a little confused; you seem to have missed > the whole point. > If you metabolize, etc. then you are a life. > If you have the right type of DNA, you are of the species homo-sapiens. > Now, let us suppose that someone took a spoon and stirred your > cerebrum (or was it cerebelum?) and you were no MORE > than a metabolizing entity with the right type of DNA. I don't know how you define metabolism. To me it is the summation of all the processes in an organism by which material is input and energy is produced and that working together provide a coordinated working system ,ie. an organism. Your situation of destroyed brain cells doesn't fit my definition. You can continue to use your definition of metabolism of course, but you are also calling it life, giving no reason for the equation. > There is now something missing. > That something is what we (Ron Rizzo up there, and I, at least) > are talking about. > Life (metabolizing, etc) is no more relevant to what we are than > hardware is to a particular program being run. > A particular set of DNA is no more important than a random > molecule of oxygen, or a random configuration of a Rubik's cube, > simply because there are so many of them. They only are useful > as quantities. > What we are is something more abstract than life or DNA. > A fetus has nothing more than life and DNA, both of negligible > value as a particular instance. > I suppose nothing really can be discussed between us if at the basic premises, you believe life has no value. This alone explains all your statements. And you are consistent with your beliefs. > Now, this something that we are does not get given to us, > especially not at a marked point. If we have it all, yet it is not given to us, then we must have had it all along. My point precisely. >Neither are there > simpleton tests that make binary decisions on whether you > have this (intentionally left vague in this article) quality. > Yet it is obvious to all that there is this something, a > characteristic which sets us beyond most other animals > on this planet, and beyond those vegetables which happen > to still have homo-sapiens DNA in them. > It is this characteristic which is important, which > fetuses don't have, and which anti-abortionists seem > to have no concerns for. > > Brian Peterson {ucbvax, ihnp4, } !tektronix!shark!brianp > ^ ^ For something vague, with no tests as to whether you have it, with no one sure when we get it, not given to us, yet CONCLUSIVELY fetuses don't have it,... ????? Mike Johnston