Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site utcsrgv.UUCP Path: utzoo!utcsrgv!vassos From: vassos@utcsrgv.UUCP (Vassos Hadzilacos) Newsgroups: net.politics Subject: Re: Re: A statistic on poverty Message-ID: <610@utcsrgv.UUCP> Date: Fri, 21-Dec-84 19:20:37 EST Article-I.D.: utcsrgv.610 Posted: Fri Dec 21 19:20:37 1984 Date-Received: Fri, 21-Dec-84 20:45:51 EST Organization: CSRI, University of Toronto Lines: 124 > RACISM and SEXISM are thoughts, deeds, and perceptions that one group of people > have toward another group of people that they consider *different*. Taking a > look at a set of statistics about the economic welfare of groups of people and > saying that it shows various ISM's is an absurd (though popular) abuse of > statistics. The use of statistics about the economic welfare of Black people and women to make the point that racism and sexism exists in society, is perfectly legitimate. It serves the important purpose of showing that racism and sexism, in addition to (and more importantly than) being "thoughts, deeds and perceptions" of individuals against individuals, are _social_ problems with far-reaching and dire implications on their victims' lives. > Now, I won't deny that there IS still racism and sexism around. I would be > either a fool or blind if I did. But let me point out some other factors > which influence the higher black poverty level: > - The higher incidence of single parenthood > - The higher percentage of school drop-outs > - The larger percentage of poor parents (with all the boot-strapping > problems that entails) > - The larger families "Factor" 1 is actually a consequence of sexism ("single parenthood" almost always means "female-headed family"). "Factor" 2 is a consequence of racism: poor neighbourhoods (and Black neighbourhoods in their majority _are_ poor) get bad schools. "Factor" 3 is also a consequence of racism: many Black people have poor parents because their parents were discriminated against. This leaves us with "factor" 4: I don't know the demographics, so I don't even know that it is true; in any case, if it was a significant factor, it would imply Catholics are, as a group, poorer than Blacks, clearly untrue. Therefore, if "factor" 4 is a factor at all, it is insignificant. > Another point, a group which has clearly suffered from much discrimination in > the US is the Jewish community. But yet, their demographics are better than > national average. Why were they able to climb above the obstacles? Not to negate in the slightest the fact that the Jewish community has suffered a lot of discrimination and persecution, it is nonetheless a fact that Jewish people (along with the East and South European immigrants, also discrimiated against) were not brought in the U.S. in the chains of chattel slavery. If you don't understand the significance of this fact, you'll excuse me but you don't understand jack shit about the history and culture of Black people in the U.S. > Now, I am hardly going to characterize blacks as shiftless and lazy. As with > any other group, some are and some aren't. [...] However, STATISTICALLY, the > black culture does not put as much of an emphesis on basic education as > the population as a whole does. (I am basing this statement on results of > standardized tests, high school drop-out rates, literacy rates.) The results of "standardized tests, high school drop-out rates, literacy rates" are themselves a measure of racism: yes, if a group of people only has access to poor schools, it won't do as well in tests, it will tend to drop out of the (poor) schools more often and its literacy rate may be lower. What's that got to do with "black culture"? The fact is that you're basing your statements on standardized racist propaganda. > Now, there was a growing sentiment in the 60s that this was OK, > that the black culture had different values than the white culture > does and trying to use the same standards for the two groups > was wrong, that blacks were doing an injustice to their heritage > if they strived toward white ideals. If you are trying to say that a good education is "a white ideal" (as opposed to a "black ideal"), then I'll say that you are not only basing your statements on racist propaganda, but are spewing such yourself. If that's not what you are saying then _what_ are you saying? Check out the people who are struggling the hardest for quality education in your town (or place of employment? I mean Cambridge and Boston both of which I know first hand) -- you'll find the Black politicians in the front lines. > Go tell that to the employer who just isn't interested in hiring a functional > illiterate. More racist garbage. The problem with racism in employment is not that "the employer just isn't interested in hiring a functional illiterate"; the problem is that the employer "just isn't interested" in hiring a person because of his/her colour. > [...] the problem is cyclical and reinforcing. A group doesn't consider basic > education important, so the children don't apply themselves at school. The > school collapses because the kids spend more effort avoiding work than learning. > The kids can't learn, because the school is no good. Everyone gets the idea > that education is unimportant because the kids don't learn anything from it ... You're starting the circle from the wrong point. The starting point isn't that "a group" doesn't consider basic education important (in fact, that's not a point in the circle at all). The starting point is that "the group" has only access to the worst kind of education. > [...] There are only two things that can break a chain like this: > 1) Somehow have the group in question uniformly adopt a set of values > which are strongly economically oriented. Some things that would help: > * Stable families, low divorce rate, no single parents > * Small families > * Education and hard work strongly valued > * Entire life of parents geared toward childrens future A bit patronizing, don't you think? I know plenty of lilly white upper middle class suburbs with very unstable families and high divorce rates. How about delivering your sermons there? Regarding "education and hard work [being] stronly valued", they already are (by Blacks and by any other group I know of), thank you very much. Ditto for parents caring about their children's future. > 2) Eliminate racism to the point where the concept of race disappears, > to the point that skin color is like hair color. Finally, something I can agree with... > This would, of course, mean > the disappearance of blacks, hispanics, etc as distinct ethnic groups with any > form of separate values or heritage. Why should elimination of racism imply all this? Why shouldn't instead people learn to respect and learn from others' values, heritage, culture? Vassos Hadzilacos.