Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site sdcc3.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!allegra!mit-eddie!genrad!decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdcc3!87064023 From: 87064023@sdcc3.UUCP ({|lit) Newsgroups: net.politics,net.philosophy Subject: Re: Libertarianism Message-ID: <2585@sdcc3.UUCP> Date: Fri, 21-Dec-84 03:21:37 EST Article-I.D.: sdcc3.2585 Posted: Fri Dec 21 03:21:37 1984 Date-Received: Sun, 23-Dec-84 00:20:13 EST References: <395@ptsfa.UUCP> <12@ucbcad.UUCP> Distribution: net Organization: U.C. San Diego, Academic Computer Center Lines: 89 Xref: watmath net.politics:6442 net.philosophy:1325 > > I'm a bit confused by the phrase "collective goods". I can't see > > defining a collective good as something that's good for society as a > > whole... > > What is good for society as a whole is what is good for most of the members. I think you should be careful about this. Killing welfare recepients (instead of feeding them) could be construed as being good for most of "society's" members. And again, who determines what is "good" for whom? Government? > People who value ignorance as a virtue are, fortunately, a minority. If > you don't believe what's being taught, that's no reason to say that you > shouldn't be taught anything. Should these people be forced to be educated? Should I be forced to provide their education (thru taxes, etc.)? The idea that the initial use of force should be utilized to solve problems is exactly what libertarians are arguing against. Force should only be used to respond to attempts to infringe on an individuals rights to life, liberty, and property. > > > I can't think of a single example of something that would be good for > > EVERYBODY, at least not if each person were permitted to decide for > > him/herself what's good for her/him. > > Well, neither can I, but just because people don't always know what's good > for them doesn't mean that they are right. > Say what?!! Government should decide what is best for me? Because I *CAN'T* ?! The final judge of what is good for an individual IS THAT INDIVIDUAL. I especially resent this argument that my liberty is being infringed upon "for my own good". > > Under a libertarian system, all > > schools would be private schools. Parents would be free to send their > > children to the school of their choice. The children of the poor would go > > to schools operated by private charities, or would be taught by their > > parents. > > Parents would also be free no completely neglect their children's > educations, which I think would be more common. Do you think that a > poor unmaried mother would have the time and motivation (not to > mention education) to teach her children herself? You have to consider > the rights of the children to an education also, not only the rights > of the parents to do whatever they want with their children. > Yes, parents would be free to neglect their children's education, just like it is now. Your solution to this problem is to use force to coerce children into schools. The solution proposed by libertarians is to realize that individuals do and should have the ultimate responsibility to act in their own interest, and if this includes not going to school (or not sending your children to school) then it is nobody else's business. As for the rights of children to an education, you might note that libertarians believe that human rights also extend to children, and we make no distinction between "people" and "children". Hence, the ultimate responsibility for a person's educations rests with that person, not with his or her parents. > > I think that most of the people who have been defending libertarianism > are really defending anarchism, including Mr. Bashinsk. As I understand > it, libertarians (real Libertarians, that is) don't believe in a society > with no government at all, but rather one with a minimal government. If > people want to argue that all government is evil, they should identify > themselves as anarchists, not libertarians. > > Wayne Libertarianism is not anarchism. We Libertarians stress that government is formed to protect the lives, liberty, and property of its citizenry, and that governments are properly judged on the extent to which they do so. As such, government is a necessary institution. (Legitimate functions of government include a police force, a national defense, and a judicial system. These are all necessary to protect lives, liberty, and property.) When a government starts to INFRINGE on individual rights instead of PROTECTING them, then that government becomes evil. Since governments rule only by consent of the governed, any individual or group of individuals has the right to rescind the consent to be governed. John Wallner