Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/5/84; site aecom.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!bonnie!akgua!mcnc!philabs!aecom!teitz From: teitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz) Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish Subject: Re: Re: flame! etc. Message-ID: <1056@aecom.UUCP> Date: Wed, 26-Dec-84 14:50:17 EST Article-I.D.: aecom.1056 Posted: Wed Dec 26 14:50:17 1984 Date-Received: Fri, 28-Dec-84 08:08:25 EST References: <1050@aecom.UUCP> <271@moscom.UUCP> Distribution: net Organization: Albert Einstein Coll. of Med., NY Lines: 72 ( I, too, will leave the quotes at the end [ when I remember ]) Concerning lighting candles, yes, those who lit according to Beit Shammai, once the law was set according to Beit Hillel were less observant. Not less Jewish ( in the sense that they are Jews ) but less Jewish in the sense of not following the laws. Specific examples in this situation are not very good, because one can bring very minor points of argument and say that it is ridiculous to call someone less Jewish because of it. My point is, as you seem to agree, against Conservative and Reform Jews who think they are practicing Judaism, when in fact they are disregarding most of it. If you disagree with my definition, fine. On that we can talk. However, some of the responses that I have seen have been attacks on me personally. Since none of those who attacked me knows me personally, I find it upsetting, to say the least, that some people resort to these tactics to bolster their own opinions. Degrading me does not make the other person's argument any better. So stick to discussing my points and not me. In general I enjoy writing to the net, and I was taken aback at the venom in the attacks on my articles. I quite obviously touched on a point which is dear to many on the net ( as it is to me ). However, people must realize, that while Israel is a great thing to have, it is not anywhere near what is could and should be. I said what I did because I want Israel to be at the forefront of Judaism, but in its present state it isn't. Whether one says hallel on Yom Ha'atzmaut or not is not really the issue. The issue is Israel's position in the religious world. Take what I have said to heart. If you look beyond the words, into the ideas, I think you will for the most part agree with me. Wishing everyone all the best, and the speedy rebuilding of the Beit Hamikdash, Eliyahu Teitz. > (Quote at the end. Good idea in general that.) > > The crux of your argument is that a person who does not follow the Torah is > does not follow the Jewish religion, although he remains Jewish. I disagree. > I cannot see how you can seperate the two. A Jew is enjoin by birth to follow > the Torah, but is endowed with a will to choose if he/she wishes to follow the > precepts as written and interpeted over the years. Choosing not to follow a > precept or a group of precepts is as concious an act as choosing to follow. > One man's Judaism is not necessarily the next one's. > > Now it is Chanukkah. Beit Hillel said we should light increasing number of > candles. Beit Shammai said that we should light decreasing number of candles. > Were the followers of Beit Shammai not observant Jews because their actions > were not "correct" according to Beit Hillel. Is the Jew who occasionally eats > at McDonalds less Jewish than one who eats only glatt? (Better yet is a person > who eats kosher, but not glatt, not Jewish?) > > By saying that an observance of Jewish that is not in keeping with your views > makes the Jew not religious, and therefore an ethnic-Jew not a religious-ethnic- > Jew will splinter our religion/ethnic group. > > For the record, I do not think that reform and conservative Judaism are > viable paths for Jewish religious/ethnic group survival. But, they exist, > they are ethnic Jews, and they in their own way are religious Jews. > > David Esan > > > > What I was trying to say was something totally different. My point is this: > > The state, in its present status, is not a Jewish state. Before you blow up, > > let me explain. A person born to a Jew is a Jew, no matter what the level of > > his observance. However, a person who is not observant does not follow the > > Jewish religion. Reform "Judaism" is not Judaism. Judaism assumes that a > > person abide by the Torah. To say that the Torah is an historical record, > > and that the laws can be ignored, is NOT practicing Judaism. He is still > > Jewish, though.