Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 (Tek) 9/26/83; site shark.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!bonnie!akgua!whuxlm!harpo!decvax!tektronix!orca!shark!brianp From: brianp@shark.UUCP (Brian Peterson) Newsgroups: net.abortion Subject: Re: Society has already decided what a legal human being is Message-ID: <1192@shark.UUCP> Date: Sun, 16-Dec-84 21:46:03 EST Article-I.D.: shark.1192 Posted: Sun Dec 16 21:46:03 1984 Date-Received: Tue, 18-Dec-84 07:13:20 EST References: <181@faron.UUCP>, <21@epsilon.UUCP> Organization: Tektronix, Wilsonville OR Lines: 46 47 From: egs@epsilon.UUCP (Ed Sheppard) 47 In response to Paul Dubuc, Phillip Servita writes: 47 > As far as 47 > I am concerned, THAT WHICH HAS NO CONSCIOUSNESS HAS NO RIGHTS. If object 47 > "x" has no consciousness, then object "x" has no rights. whether or not 47 > object "x" WILL HAVE consciousness is of NO BEARING to the principle. 47 47 Ok Phil. Now if you'll only provide us with a test for consciousness. This 47 object can hardly wait. 47 Ed Sheppard Reality is not discrete. Reality is not simple. Conciousness is a very very abstract concept. It also is not a simple discrete thing. Conciousness is not like dollars or acres or numbers of votes or pounds of flesh. A test that would say "concious entity" or "not concious entity" is a silly thing to want. However, conciousness is a concept that just about everyone can understand, though they might have different names or perceptions of it, and their conception of it might be vague. A thing can be very very real and also be very vague or unknown. Conciousness is like that. We haven't managed to define it in precise measurable terms, so we can't provide a simple algorithm for calculating whether or when a given entity is concious. However, just about everyone has the notion of "more" and "less" conciousness. Rocks, frogs, and trees don't have much, if any. Dogs, cats, gorillas, dolphins, and other animals which act cleverly and seem to show emotions have more conciousness. We have the most. (naturally :-) We can apply the notion of conciousness to fetuses, also. All that we have to do is to compare fetuses to other entities which we consider to have various levels of conciousness. We just have to look for the characteristics which make us think of conciousness. These are things like intelligence, and emotions. (The ability to feel pain and jerk away is neither. Animals which we consider mindless beasts can feel pain.) A test that you can program into your computer just won't do. You will have to use your right brain. Brian Peterson ...! {ucbvax, ihnp4, } !tektronix!shark!brianp