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From: teitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz)
Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Christmas {report} card
Message-ID: <1051@aecom.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 25-Dec-84 12:35:07 EST
Article-I.D.: aecom.1051
Posted: Tue Dec 25 12:35:07 1984
Date-Received: Fri, 28-Dec-84 08:07:18 EST
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Organization: Albert Einstein Coll. of Med., NY
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> >   Israel's independence day, as I have argued in the past ( and it was this 
> >  point that originally got me active on the net ), is not a holiday for a few
> >  reasons.
> > 
> > 		1. It does not celebrate the setting up of a Jewsih state but rather
> >  a state of Jews. My point is the state of Israel is not very Jewish at all.
> >  Okay, they give off for Jewish holidays, but the politicians and a percentage
> >  ( a large one at that ) don't give a damn about Judaism, as is evidenced
> >   by their lack of concern for the Sabbath.
> 
> Just because the politicians and the people of the country do not observe our(!)
> religion to your satisfaction makes them not-Jews in your opinion.  Does it
> follow that the Lubavitcher Rebbe should feel the same way about all mitnagdim?
> Since when do you decide the course of Jewish law?  Living in the land of
> Israel is a mitzvah in itself, something that all "good" Jews should consider
> doing (then why am I here -- another time).  I found in Israel the feeling
> of being Jewish was everywhere.  Sure, they violated Shabbes, but it was a
> day when no one worked, and that is the essense of Shabbes -- not when you
> can open the refrigerator door.
> 
> 

      I never said that the people who do not observe the Torah are not Jews.
 All I said is that they do not practice Judaism. And that to call a state 
 Jewish it must abide by the Torah. To this idea I remain faithful I cannot
 say how G-D will deal with any Jew. Also, not opening a refrigerator door is 
 as much a question of Shabbat and its essence as is not working. Actually, the
 essence of Shabbat according to the Ramban on the Torah ( Vayikra, I don't
 remember the exact location ) is to deal in spiritual endeavors, to learn
 Torah, and the such. He says that if a person sleeps all day on shabbat he
 has not desecrated it but he has not fulfilled the essence of shabbat ( I
 wrote this when we were discussing electricity and shabbat ). Another thing 
 about shabbat. The g'mara considers one who desecrates the shabbat publicly
 a non-Jew ( for certain laws ). A pretty strong statement. So violation
 of the shabbat cannot be brush off with a simple "and that is the essence of
 shabbes" .

> > 	2. The day itself was a cause for desecration of the sabbath, hardly
> >  a thing to celebrate ( the declaration of independence was signed on Shabbat)
> >   There are other, more political reasons, which I'd rather not discuss in 
> >  detail. Let me just say that you should read the book Perfidy by Ben Hecht to
> >  get a good idea of what the politicians were interested in when they set up 
> >  the state.
> 
> So what if the independance was declared on Shabbat.  In an earlier time 
> Jews died because they would not fight on Shabbat, and the enemy managed to
> breach their defenses and destroy them on Shabbat.  The concept of "pikuah
> nefesh" (protection of life) applied after that.  Or perhaps your one who
> chooses to stone firetrucks and ambulances that operate on Shabbes.  The
> first chief rabbi of Israel, Rav Kook, was reviled for that decision, even
> though today he is viewed as a "gdol hador", a giant of the generation.  The
> declaration of the state is cause to celebrate.  Whether the Masiach appeared
> or we help to bring his coming by our actions, the first independant Jewish
> state in ~2000 years is cause to celebrate, the politician's dreams not
> withstanding.
> 

      Pikuach nefesh only applies when there is a definite danger of losing 
 life. The signing of a piece of paper in no way saved anyone's life.  
 So pikuach nefesh does not apply in this case. 
      Another thing. I never said that I do not consider the establishment
 of a state in Israel something to thank G-D for. All I said is that 
 Israeli independence day is not a holiday. I personally feel that Yom
 Yerushalayim, the day Jerusalem was liberated from arab hands is a more
 appropriate day to celebrate. The g'mara ( as usual I don't remember the
 source) already discusses the day of liberation for Jerusalem a a holiday.


> >     The Jewish nation had survived for 2000 years without a country of their
> >  own and I dare say they could have survived another 2000. Of course having
> >  the state is very nice, but looking at it now, it has hardly been a religious
> >  blessing. I really don't know if such an occurence should be celebrated.
> > 
> > 				Eliyahu Teitz.
> 
> This is the biggest crock I have ever heard.  Can you sit there after six
> million people died in Europe, while three million Jews are destroyed in 
> the USSR, while countless Jews in Arab lands would have suffered horrible
> degradation in the current fanatic Moslem climate, and tell me that we
> would have survived another 2000 years?????  Perhaps, we would have as a
> small band living in Boro Park.  But, as a group with any political or
> moral clout -- don't even think of it.  (Let us not forget that assimilation
> in America might of increased had the Jews nothing to hold onto except
> memories of a fading and dead old country).

     This is the biggest crock I've ever heard ( to quote someone -)). Did
 the state of Israel exist during the Holocaust? No. So it has no bearing on
 the matter. Actually, it does. Quite a large bearing. Who prevented the
 people from getting out of Europe. As I said in the past, read the book 
 Perfidy, by Ben Hecht, then come back and tell me that Israel saved the 
 Jews. 

Also, the Jews in Russia have been there since 1917, 31 years before the
 state of Israel. So the state is really helping them. Another thing. People
 like to shout about Russian Jewry. Emigration from Russia has trickled down
 to next ot nothing and everyone is running about screaming. And if the 
 Russians let out a few thousand Jews everyone will be happy and pat themselves
 on the back about the great job they did saving Russian Jewry. How about
 the people who are stuck without a hope of getting out. What do all hese 
 groups do for them aside from ignore their plight. The condition of those 
 stuck inside only gets worse for every Jew they let out. How do I know? 
 I have a close relative who works with the Russian government to get siddurim
 machzorim, lulavim, t'fillin and the like into Russia for those stuck inside.

     Next peoblem. The Jews of Yemen weren't doing all that badly while they
 were in Yemen. The Jews of Syria weren't doing too badly either. So the 
 fanatical arab states weren't killing off their Jewish population and to this
 day they don't. So what is Israel doing for them?

     All I have to say to your arguments is that they don't hold very much 
 water. Israel is a great thing to have but it is not a religious state. To
 this you agreed. Therefore it is a state of Jews but not a Jewish state.

    Your comment about Boro Park was totally uncalled for. Who brought them
 into the picture. I dislike their brand of Judaism too ( to an extent ).
 As for asimilation, I don't know if Israel is really helping. The Jews of
 Yemen certainly didn't get anything from being moved to Israel. All they lost
 was their religious beliefs. Some favor. Intermarriage is on the rise in 
 Israel too. The problem with assimilation is that people are saying that they 
 are Jewish enough by supporting Israel and they don't stand up for the Jewishness
 any more. They are not forced to assert their Jewishness because they say they
 do enough by buying bonds or going on aliyah. That is not enough. The only
 way to stop assimilation is through education. Jewish education. The inter-
 marriage rate is presently 50%. Among those who had formal Jewish education
 through high school the rate is less than 2%. Tells you something. Also, the
 intermarriage rate has gone up since the founding of Israel. Think about it.
 Before you shoot off at the mouth ( or fingers ).
> 
> In short, your arguments against the state are based on false logic,
> faulty assumptions.  The existance of the state of Israel is cause for
> celebration, not questioning.  The questioning may come on the politics of
> the state, bu not on its existance!
> 
> 				     David Esan

     Fine. I'll celebrate the fact ( which I do ) but not the set-up and not
 on the day that others do. I originally said that the day is no cause for 
 celebration and what I wrote before, in the article you quoted was a slip and 
 I regretted it after I sent it. The state is something to celebrate but it is
 also something to be questioned. Why do we only look to see if we are moral
 when others get killed due to our inaction ( as in Sabra and Shatilla ). We
 have to be moral all the time. And morality as w know it is defined by the 
 Torah, so we have to constantly question the state to see if it is fulfilling
 its obligations.

				Eliyahu Teitz.