Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site gcc-opus.ARPA Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!allegra!bellcore!decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!godot!harvard!gcc-opus!alien From: alien@gcc-opus.ARPA Newsgroups: net.politics Subject: Re: A statistic on poverty Message-ID: <170@gcc-opus.ARPA> Date: Sun, 16-Dec-84 20:26:44 EST Article-I.D.: gcc-opus.170 Posted: Sun Dec 16 20:26:44 1984 Date-Received: Thu, 20-Dec-84 02:55:11 EST References: <2780@ucbcad.UUCP> <1203@dciem.UUCP> <1341@ihuxq.UUCP> <369@klipper.UUCP> <161@gcc-opus.ARPA> <1132@ut-ngp.UUCP> Reply-To: alien@gcc-opus.UUCP (Alien Wells) Organization: General Computer Company, Cambridge Ma (creators of Ms. Pacman) Lines: 114 Summary: >issue associated with poverty in this country: The incidence >of poverty shows that RACISM and SEXISM is alive and well in >the United States! Thanks for posting the statistics, though I am pretty sure they are the ones that don't include food stamps as income in determining poverty. Of course, the disparity between black and white wouldn't be anywhere nearly as large if they did, since the percentage of blacks on food stamps is much larger than the percentage of blacks in the population as a whole. But that is not what I wanted to reply to. Your quote above is something that I hear quite often, particularily on TV news, and it galls me. RACISM and SEXISM are thoughts, deeds, and perceptions that one group of people have toward another group of people that they consider *different*. Taking a look at a set of statistics about the economic welfare of groups of people and saying that it shows various ISM's is an absurd (though popular) abuse of statistics. Let me give some extreme examples. Statistics show that the following groups of people are generally worse off than the average: - Married heads of households under 25 - Single heads of households - Households with over 5 children - Elderly - People with chronic health problems - Descendants of poor people Does this mean that discrimination against these groups of people is 'alive and well'? Now, I won't deny that there IS still racism and sexism around. I would be either a fool or blind if I did. But let me point out some other factors which influence the higher black poverty level: - The higher incidence of single parenthood - The higher percentage of school drop-outs - The larger percentage of poor parents (with all the boot-strapping problems that entails) - The larger families Another point, a group which has clearly suffered from much discrimination in the US is the Jewish community. But yet, their demographics are better than national average. Why were they able to climb above the obstacles? Probably the biggest factor is the Jewish culture's strong values of hard work and education. Contrast this with the over 50% high school drop-out rate of blacks in most urban cities. Now, I am hardly going to characterize blacks as shiftless and lazy. As with any other group, some are and some aren't. And a growing number of blacks do get ahead these days, which is good to see. However, STATISTICALLY, the black culture does not put as much of an emphesis on basic education as the population as a whole does. (I am basing this statement on results of standardized tests, high school drop-out rates, literacy rates.) Now, there was a growing sentiment in the 60s that this was OK, that the black culture had different values than the white culture does and trying to use the same standards for the two groups was wrong, that blacks were doing an injustice to their heritage if they strived toward white ideals. Go tell that to the employer who just isn't interested in hiring a functional illiterate. This is a very basic problem, and all of the good will, intentions, and social programs in the world are not going to help someone who won't help himself. And the problem is cyclical and reinforcing. A group doesn't consider basic education important, so the children don't apply themselves at school. The school collapses because the kids spend more effort avoiding work than learning. The kids can't learn, because the school is no good. Everyone gets the idea that education is unimportant because the kids don't learn anything from it ... So now, how about a pat solution? I don't have one. But it has to start from the bottom. Bussing typically doesn't help because the kids tend to segregate themselves, and get their values from their peers of the same group. I suspect that making private child-raising illegal and having everyone raised by the state would do wonders, but I would hardly recommend it (all the kids would end up fucked up, instead of most of them). There are only two things that can break a chain like this: 1) Somehow have the group in question uniformly adopt a set of values which are strongly economically oriented. Some things that would help: * Stable families, low divorce rate, no single parents * Small families * Education and hard work strongly valued * Entire life of parents geared toward childrens future How do you get a group of people to endorse values like these? Damn if I know, and I don't think it would be right to force it on them if I did. 2) Eliminate racism to the point where the concept of race disappears, to the point that skin color is like hair color. This would, of course, mean the disappearance of blacks, hispanics, etc as distinct ethnic groups with any form of separate values or heritage. This is what I think will eventually happen, as it did with the large Italian, Irish, German, English, etc minorities we used to have. Sure, there are still people who consider themselves of, say, Irish descent in the US, but their number pales compared with the number of people with some Irish blood that just consider themselves Americans. The key to seeing this happen is inter-racial marriages. They are on the rise, but they are still rare. Until then, what do you do? My suggestion is to try to help those really needy without creating programs which re-inforce a 'welfare state mentality'. Workfare is my favorite. Make any able bodied welfare recipient work for their check. Even if it is just make work. The benefits are three-fold: - You at least make them feel they are working for the benefit instead of the government 'owing' them the money. - You might, just might, give them some sort of job skill or work ethic. - Someone will think a lot harder about a minimum wage job at a fast food joint if their alternative is poorly paid work instead of a paid vacation. Up here in Nashua NH we have a pilot workfare program, but I don't know how long it will last. It seems the Democrats are all up in arms, saying that it is 'demeaning' and 'unjust' to those who are 'unfortunate enough' to require government aid. Since southern NH is pretty Democratic (probably the proximity and number of refugees from MA), I suspect its days are numbered. Oh well. Alien