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From: barry@ames.UUCP (Kenn Barry)
Newsgroups: net.misc
Subject: Re: Mensa and elitism
Message-ID: <722@ames.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 24-Dec-84 16:51:37 EST
Article-I.D.: ames.722
Posted: Mon Dec 24 16:51:37 1984
Date-Received: Thu, 27-Dec-84 03:09:01 EST
References: <166@ttidcc.UUCP>
Organization: NASA-Ames Research Center, Mtn. View, CA
Lines: 53

[]

	From ttidcc!hollombe (Jerry Hollombe):
> As usual, the point has been raised that Mensa is an elitist  organization.
> This  is  true.  It  is  also  true  of highschool football teams, symphony
> orchestras, and the company you probably work for (do you  seriously  think
> they  hire  anyone  who walks in the door?).  Any organization which sets a
> standard for membership is an elitist organization.  I  don't  hear  anyone
> condemning the American Bar Association for being elitist (you have to pass
> a bar exam to join).  I've never been able to pass a  calculus  course.  Is
> the   American  Mathematical  Society  to  be  criticized  for  denying  me
> membership?
  
	The other organizations you mention could be called elitist,
but their standards for membership are based on *accomplishment*, not
innate ability.

> We live in an elitist society.  To claim anything else is  pure  hypocrisy.
> The  concept  "that  all  men  are  created equal" has a fine, high-minded,
> idealistic ring to it.  It is also utter nonsense.  The fact  is  that  all
> people  are not created equal and they certainly don't become equal as they
> grow older.
  
	My precise point. The premise of mensa seems to be that you qualify
for membership by what you *are*, not what you've done. Formally,
you could argue that you qualify by the accomplishment of scoring well
on certain tests, but, as you here imply, that is not the premise
of mensa. The premise is that these tests actually measure something
meaningful about you, something innate.
	I think there are two things about mensa that some people find
objectionable. One is the idea of a group which restricts membership
according to traits that are (at least supposedly) innate. Recall the
recent debate about the Association for Women in Computing (may be wrong
name). Some objected to it as sexist (form of elitism) if it only admits
women.
	The other problem is the tests, themselves. Do they measure *anything*
beyond the ability to do well on certain specific types of tests? Or
is it possible that mensa is not only elitist, but is based on a completely
arbitrary measurement, and is thus a false elitism? Having just read
Gould's THE MISMEASURE OF MAN, my doubts about the worth of IQ tests
are particularly acute at the moment.
	Actually, I don't object to mensa; even went to a mensa open
house, once, to check it out. But I do disagree with the implication
in your article that mensa members are an elite of any sort. The question
of what IQ tests actually measure (beyond one's skill at taking IQ tests)
is still far too open to permit that conclusion.

-  From the Crow's Nest  -                      Kenn Barry
                                                NASA-Ames Research Center
                                                Moffett Field, CA
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