Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site moscom.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!allegra!mit-eddie!godot!harvard!seismo!rochester!ritcv!moscom!de From: de@moscom.UUCP (Dave Esan) Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish Subject: Re: Re: Re: Christmas {report} card Message-ID: <270@moscom.UUCP> Date: Thu, 20-Dec-84 13:50:47 EST Article-I.D.: moscom.270 Posted: Thu Dec 20 13:50:47 1984 Date-Received: Sat, 22-Dec-84 02:18:47 EST References: <2028@nsc.UUCP> <2031@nsc.UUCP> <1014@aecom.UUCP> <18017@lanl.ARPA> <1031@aecom.UUCP> Distribution: net Organization: MOSCOM Corp, E Rochester, NY, USA Lines: 64 > Israel's independence day, as I have argued in the past ( and it was this > point that originally got me active on the net ), is not a holiday for a few > reasons. > > 1. It does not celebrate the setting up of a Jewsih state but rather > a state of Jews. My point is the state of Israel is not very Jewish at all. > Okay, they give off for Jewish holidays, but the politicians and a percentage > ( a large one at that ) don't give a damn about Judaism, as is evidenced > by their lack of concern for the Sabbath. Just because the politicians and the people of the country do not observe our(!) religion to your satisfaction makes them not-Jews in your opinion. Does it follow that the Lubavitcher Rebbe should feel the same way about all mitnagdim? Since when do you decide the course of Jewish law? Living in the land of Israel is a mitzvah in itself, something that all "good" Jews should consider doing (then why am I here -- another time). I found in Israel the feeling of being Jewish was everywhere. Sure, they violated Shabbes, but it was a day when no one worked, and that is the essense of Shabbes -- not when you can open the refrigerator door. > 2. The day itself was a cause for desecration of the sabbath, hardly > a thing to celebrate ( the declaration of independence was signed on Shabbat) > There are other, more political reasons, which I'd rather not discuss in > detail. Let me just say that you should read the book Perfidy by Ben Hecht to > get a good idea of what the politicians were interested in when they set up > the state. So what if the independance was declared on Shabbat. In an earlier time Jews died because they would not fight on Shabbat, and the enemy managed to breach their defenses and destroy them on Shabbat. The concept of "pikuah nefesh" (protection of life) applied after that. Or perhaps your one who chooses to stone firetrucks and ambulances that operate on Shabbes. The first chief rabbi of Israel, Rav Kook, was reviled for that decision, even though today he is viewed as a "gdol hador", a giant of the generation. The declaration of the state is cause to celebrate. Whether the Masiach appeared or we help to bring his coming by our actions, the first independant Jewish state in ~2000 years is cause to celebrate, the politician's dreams not withstanding. > The Jewish nation had survived for 2000 years without a country of their > own and I dare say they could have survived another 2000. Of course having > the state is very nice, but looking at it now, it has hardly been a religious > blessing. I really don't know if such an occurence should be celebrated. > > Eliyahu Teitz. This is the biggest crock I have ever heard. Can you sit there after six million people died in Europe, while three million Jews are destroyed in the USSR, while countless Jews in Arab lands would have suffered horrible degradation in the current fanatic Moslem climate, and tell me that we would have survived another 2000 years????? Perhaps, we would have as a small band living in Boro Park. But, as a group with any political or moral clout -- don't even think of it. (Let us not forget that assimilation in America might of increased had the Jews nothing to hold onto except memories of a fading and dead old country). In short, your arguments against the state are based on false logic, faulty assumptions. The existance of the state of Israel is cause for celebration, not questioning. The questioning may come on the politics of the state, bu not on its existance! David Esan *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE ***