Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site dciem.UUCP Path: utzoo!dciem!mmt From: mmt@dciem.UUCP (Martin Taylor) Newsgroups: net.politics Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Criticism of Dutch Government Message-ID: <1280@dciem.UUCP> Date: Sat, 15-Dec-84 15:22:46 EST Article-I.D.: dciem.1280 Posted: Sat Dec 15 15:22:46 1984 Date-Received: Sat, 15-Dec-84 20:39:20 EST References: <1203@dciem.UUCP> <28100020@uicsl.UUCP> <6216@mcvax.UUCP> <172@talcott.UUCP> <151@ihu1m.UUCP>Reply-To: mmt@dciem.UUCP (Martin Taylor) Organization: D.C.I.E.M., Toronto, Canada Lines: 39 Summary: >Nobody is condemning anyone. The origonal criticism of Dutch prostitution >and drug use was only made to show how inappropriate the anti-American >attitude of one Dutch poster was. If other people think that there are >important issues of Dutch society to discuss, I hope that they will create >net.dutch and try to discuss them in a rational manner. I have a lot >of admiration for the Netherlands myself, and only regret that some >people on both sides of the Atlantic can get so caught up in nationalistic >self-righteousness that they lose sight of all the good things we could >be discussing about both the US and the Netherlands... > > Wayne It's not, and never was, clear how criticism of the Dutch attitude toward civil liberty showed "how inappropriate the anti-American attitude of one Dutch poster was. My interpretation of Piet's postings is that he is disappointed in the behaviour of the country that should be and has been the shining example for the world. At least, that's the way I feel, and I agree with the point -- if not the tone -- of most of Piet's postings. Yes, there are far more good things here (generic Western World) than bad. We should be discussing where they are in danger. But the bad things also exist, and it is more useful and more natural to try to right those bad things. Remember: one does not criticize what is beyond hope of correction, unless one is a sincere masochist. Many of us have been flamed on the net as anti-American (not usually by name), when in fact we are strongly pro-American but would like to see America behaving according to its professed ideals. We DON'T want to see the US converge with the USSR in its dealings with the world. What's the point of criticizing the USSR in a forum that doesn't reach kremvax? Even if they did listen, would they care what we said? (Does anyone?). If you can't take well-intentioned, if strong, criticism from your best friends, who can serve as your mirror? -- Martin Taylor {allegra,linus,ihnp4,floyd,ubc-vision}!utzoo!dciem!mmt {uw-beaver,qucis,watmath}!utcsrgv!dciem!mmt