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From: jhull@spp2.UUCP
Newsgroups: net.politics
Subject: Re: A statistic on poverty [2]
Message-ID: <325@spp2.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 18-Dec-84 14:41:01 EST
Article-I.D.: spp2.325
Posted: Tue Dec 18 14:41:01 1984
Date-Received: Fri, 21-Dec-84 00:38:43 EST
References: <251@gargoyle.UChicago.UUCP>
Reply-To: jhull@spp2.UUCP (Jeff Hull)
Organization: TRW, Redondo Beach  CA
Lines: 103
Summary: 

In article <251@gargoyle.UChicago.UUCP> carnes@gargoyle.UUCP 
(Richard Carnes) writes:
>Continuing my dissection of Alien's article:
>>Usually the main reason was vice.  
>
>Cigarettes are an addiction, not a vice.  Obviously, the poor should give up
>smoking while the affluent continue to puff away.  Alcoholism is a serious
>and tragic illness, not a vice.  Eating junk food is the result of poor
>education, bombardment with advertising, and various factors which together
>can be called the "culture of poverty" (see below), but it is not a vice.
>You forgot to mention gambling.  Chronic gambling is an addiction, not a
>vice.  Lots of poor people throw away their money on state lotteries.  This
>is not a vice; it is seen by them as perhaps the only way to escape their
>dreary world.  Don't get me started on lotteries.  Well, I suppose they're
>better than playing the numbers rackets.
>
This kind of apology makes me nauseous.  Everyone is responsible for
his/her actions and irresponsible people like you telling the poor or
anyone else they are not responsible for their situation does more
harm than anything else.  Yes, I acknowledge the societal factors that
put the poor in their situation; they need correction.  Yes, I
acknowledge the addictive properties of nicotine and alcohol; people
kick their habits every day.  No, I am not advocating abandoning the
poor to their current situation; but they have to want out enough to
do their part of the process.  Alien has done so.  While I donot know
your history, in your articles do not indicate that you have lived
this situation.  You might try to learn something from someone who
has.

>>I've had some rather enlightening talks with social workers.  One family
>>that spent their entire allowance of Food Stamps on soda and potato chips.
>>That's all they ate.  The rest of their money went to support their father's
>>4 pack a day habit and alcoholism.  
>
>Yes, the familiar and comforting image of the shiftless, irresponsible poor.

All your rantings will not change the truth.  While many in America
may use such an image to justify their non-participation and lack of
support for efforts to improve the lot of Americans less well off than
themselves, that doesn't change the fact that many of the poor are
poor today because they are not willing to be anything else.  My
personal experience includes donating my time to build a housing
project for low income people near Ga Tech .  My
income as a full time student was significantly below the poverty line
[about $3600/year in 1973] and significantly below that of many of the
people who moved into the project.  The dorms and apartments occupied
by many Ga Tech students were significantly worse than the newly
finished project.  Less than 4 years from the time the project was
turned over to the poor it was intended for, it was a slum.  The
people who moved in were not willing to live a middle America
lifestyle, EVEN WHEN IT WAS GIVEN TO THEM FOR FREE.

The facts are the current giveaway programs DO NOT WORK.  I am not
against poor people but I am against helping people be poor.  And that
is what the current programs do.  We need to create assistance
programs that support people in saving themselves, that show people
how they can support themselves, not programs that tell people, "You
poor schmuck.  Of course you can't take care of yourself.  Here.  Let
me pay your way for you."


>Most non-poor Americans simply don't have the faintest idea of what life is
>like for most of the poor population.  From Michael Harrington:
This description is very accurate.  So let's develop programs that
break the cycle while building up the self-esteem of the people
involved.  That's what will get them out of their situation.

>"Poverty in the US is a culture, an institution, a way of life....
This is what I am talking about.  What is needed is the destruction of
poverty as a way of life.  And the key is building up self-esteem
followed by education and training.

>
>Richard Carnes, ihnp4!gargoyle!carnes

There is a very serious moral and political issue here: should
government [especially the federal government] be involved in
anti-poverty programs at all?  What justification is there for
forcibly taking my property and giving it to someone else?  Voluntary
charity programs, for example, those administered by various churches
and temples, are a totally different thing.  No.  I don't know how to
ensure that they are funded at the level needed to take over the load.
But I think there are enough creative people out there who could
figure it out.  I'm sure that some combination of tax protection for
donations and advertising and soliciting [or other things I haven't
even considered] can be found that will do the job.

I absolutely agree, with no reservations, that we, as a society, have
a duty to our poorer citizens.  We must find a way to allow them to
participate in the American dream.  But what we are doing today DOES
NOT WORK.  And increasing the amount of money we pour into existing
programs will not change that.  We've tried that for 20 years and we
are no closer to a solution than when we started.

Let me repeat my main point:  I am not against poor people.  I am
against helping people be poor.

-- 
					Blessed Be,

 jhull@spp2.UUCP			Jeff Hull
 trwspp!spp2!jhull@trwrb.UUCP		13817 Yukon Ave.
					Hawthorne, CA 90250