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From: de@moscom.UUCP (Dave Esan)
Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish
Subject: Re: flame! etc.
Message-ID: <271@moscom.UUCP>
Date: Sun, 23-Dec-84 22:34:12 EST
Article-I.D.: moscom.271
Posted: Sun Dec 23 22:34:12 1984
Date-Received: Thu, 27-Dec-84 02:47:59 EST
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(Quote at the end.  Good idea in general that.)

The crux of your argument is that a person who does not follow the Torah is
does not follow the Jewish religion, although he remains Jewish.  I disagree.
I cannot see how you can seperate the two.  A Jew is enjoin by birth to follow
the Torah, but is endowed with a will to choose if he/she wishes to follow the
precepts as written and interpeted over the years.  Choosing not to follow a
precept or a group of precepts is as concious an act as choosing to follow.
One man's Judaism is not necessarily the next one's.  

Now it is Chanukkah.  Beit Hillel said we should light increasing number of 
candles.  Beit Shammai said that we should light decreasing number of candles.
Were the followers of Beit Shammai not observant Jews because their actions 
were not "correct" according to Beit Hillel.  Is the Jew who occasionally eats
at McDonalds less Jewish than one who eats only glatt? (Better yet is a person
who eats kosher, but not glatt, not Jewish?)  

By saying that an observance of Jewish that is not in keeping with your views
makes the Jew not religious, and therefore an ethnic-Jew not a religious-ethnic-
Jew will splinter our religion/ethnic group.

For the record, I do not think that reform and conservative Judaism are 
viable paths for Jewish religious/ethnic group survival.  But, they exist,
they are ethnic Jews, and they in their own way are religious Jews.

				      David Esan


>    What I was trying to say was something totally different. My point is this:
>  The state, in its present status, is not a Jewish state. Before you blow up,
>  let me explain. A person born to a Jew is a Jew, no matter what the level of
>  his observance. However, a person who is not observant does not follow the
>  Jewish religion. Reform "Judaism" is not Judaism. Judaism assumes that a 
>  person abide by the Torah. To say that the Torah is an historical record,
>  and that the laws can be ignored, is NOT practicing Judaism. He is still
>  Jewish, though.