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From: johnston@spp1.UUCP
Newsgroups: net.abortion
Subject: Re: re: when does life begin
Message-ID: <122@spp1.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 28-Nov-84 12:21:28 EST
Article-I.D.: spp1.122
Posted: Wed Nov 28 12:21:28 1984
Date-Received: Fri, 30-Nov-84 19:17:41 EST
References: <2153@stolaf.UUCP>
Organization: TRW, Redondo Beach  CA
Lines: 87

> 
> This is a classic problem in the abortion debate.  It seems ridiculous to
> me to try and say that human life begins at the moment of conception.  I am
> unable (in my mind) to extend citizenship and rights to two cells.  

Are we talking about life or citizenship? It seems the basic protection of
a person's life should extend beyond citzenship. With regards to your
inability to extend rights, this is the basic problem in the issue. We
have set up ourselves to play with another's life just because we can't
comprehend it as such. In other words, another's life must measure up to a
standard. This is the basic premise of bigotry.

>I would
>rather say that such an entity is POTENTIAL life, i.e. it has the potential of
> developing into a human being, but it is not yet an autonomous, independent,
> relatively self sufficient creature.  But if we say that destroying potential
> life is illegal, then all other forms of potential life must fall under these
> rubricks.  IUD's (as discussed earlier) prevent potential life, other birth
> control forms do the same, male masturbation wastes thousands of potential
> lives every time (Hitler eat your heart out!), and for that matter, while
> we're outlawing the destruction of all this potential life, we better outlaw
> female ovulation because every woman murders 12 innocent potential people
> every year!

Please. You need a refresher course in biology. A male sperm or female egg
will sit forever, doing nothing, no matter what kind of environment you
provide. This is called potential??? Whereas, a fertilized egg will, if
provided with the proper environment, produce a human being. You have a
point with the IUD (no pun) since this does prevent a fretilized egg from
being implanted into the uterine wall and you might even mention that in
the case of twins, several days (4 or 5) elapse before the twos sets of
cells separate. To avoid useless arguments, I'm willing to give the
fetus a week before it can be said that there is an implanted set of cells
which left alone will develop into a human being. BUt remember, a woman
will not suspect she is pregnant for at least two weeks and what with
pregnancy tests and appointment schedules, she couldn't gat an abortion
until she is at least 4 weeks along. In fact, the average abortion is done
at ten weeks, a point past when all the vital organs have developed and
working. (References available)
> 
> [sarcasm off]
> 
> 	The point is that we must think very carefully before making 
> a purely emotive judgement on this subject.  We can't always follow what we
> think is the "ideal" path.  We must think realistically.  It is impossible
> for me to think of a zygote as a human being fully protected under the law,
> fully recognized as an independent entity, and one that can support its own
> existence.  Now of course some of you may argue that an infant is also 
> dependent and not autonomous.  Well, dependent on others for physical needs
> (food, protection, shelter, etc.) but it is not BIOLOGICALLY dependent on
> another's body for existence as a zygote is.   

Again, that refresher course. The human fetus is dependent on the mother
for the same needs as the infant you mentioned: food, protection, and
shelter. The fetus is NOT dependent biologically. A misconception you MAY
be working under is that the fetus and the mother share the same blood.
This simply is not true. The blood systems are not even connected. In
fact, the blood types are more than likely different. Also the immune
systems are independent.

A pregnant woman provides no more for a fetus than a new mother. Warmth
and protection are provided in one case by a house, crib, blankets, and
holding and in the other case by a sealed, cushioned sac filled with a
warm amniotic fluid. Food is provided for infants by a bottle or breast and
in uterine, by the woman's blood as a nutrient carrier. Oxygen is free for
infants since its in the air. Exposure to air would be detrimental to the
fetus, thus the enclosed sac, but again the mother's blood provides this
essential need.

>I would prefer (if I have to
> make a choice) to call an embryo a human when it is capable of existing
> outside the womb.  At this point it has ceased to be an attachment to the
> female and has achieved at least a modicum of independence.
> -- 
> 
> Tom Twiss @ St. Olaf College
> {decvax|ihnp4}!stolaf!twiss

You must be aware of the prematue deliveries that have taken place at
around the 5 month age satisfying your criteria of being a human. I don't
see how you also can't be aware of some of the ages of late term
abortions. Try around 7 to 8 months.

The problem with establishing a date when a fetus is viable is that it is
bound to be disproved with the advance of medical technology.

				Mike Johnston