Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site decwrl.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxj!ihnp4!zehntel!dual!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-kirk!williams From: williams@kirk.DEC (John Williams 223-3402) Newsgroups: net.singles Subject: I tot I taw a puddy tat ( bull's eye ) Message-ID: <110@decwrl.UUCP> Date: Fri, 30-Nov-84 17:23:56 EST Article-I.D.: decwrl.110 Posted: Fri Nov 30 17:23:56 1984 Date-Received: Sun, 2-Dec-84 03:55:19 EST Sender: daemon@decwrl.UUCP Organization: DEC Engineering Network Lines: 180 Now, for a few carefully chosen harsh words directed at chuq. I could not let this article go unnoticed. I feel you have made some pretty severe mistakes in judgment, and I would like to personally point them out for you. I know we have had some rather dramatic disagreements in the past, due mostly to your lack of humor, so I have painstakenly taken the time to express each and every little sentence as to avoid your misinterpretation. I am sure you will wish to comment on this at some point, and I would not wish you to miss this article, so I will send you your own copy. You may reply in any manner you feel is, to use your own terminology, appropriate. Jeff> Admittedly I haven't personal experience to back this up, Jeff> but have you Chuq> If you didn't admit this up front, your further comments Chuq> would make this fact painfully clear... *urg* Perhaps you have a suggestion as to how he could gain a little. My opinion is that he has what you might call a natural fear of the unknown. Perhaps you could elaborate as to how he might possibly want to face this risk, and why. I say this only because you seem to want to take the position of self appointed moderator. Why don't you just tell him that he should put aside any fears of making a fool of himself. That the only way he will learn is by trial and error, beginning, of course, with the errors? Jeff> It occurs to me that if you and your SO could successfully Jeff> deal with the stresses of sharing a residence, for an Jeff> extended period, *without* using sex to paper over Jeff> disagreements, then your friendship would be so solid that Jeff> you would greatly increase your Chuq> We HAVE been doing that, wonderfully enforced by distance Chuq> and the fact that sex is exceptionally unsatisfying when Chuq> carried out over a pair of computer terminals or a Chuq> telephone. We don't like that option now, why would we like Chuq> that option when we are actually in the same room? During my Chuq> recent visit to my SO we didn't bother with that celibacy Chuq> claptrap and got along rather splendidly, so why ruin a good Chuq> thing? If I wanted celibacy in my relationship I'd marry a Chuq> priest or something... Please tell me if it's only my imagination, but do I detect an ulterior motive for this newsgroup? Did I actually interpret correctly that you met your current lover though net.singles? Not that I am against something like that, but it does alter the picture a little. Jeff> chances of a successful marriage, should you decide to Jeff> exercise that option. Chuq> I just got OUT of that option (final 11/18, yippee, sigh). Chuq> I'm in no hurry to tie myself down again, if ever, until I'm Chuq> sure I'm going to want to stay tied down until I die (or Chuq> beyond). I'll not mince words with you. The spiraling divorce rate is history. If you understand statistics, you will understand that your past failure will not necessarily effect your future success. The only thing that might stand in the way are your preconceptions. There are many cases of successful marriage. The primary reason for the divorce rate is due to the fact that the classical authoritarian figures can't apply as much pressure to keep destructive relationships together. Human nature hasn't changed that much in recorded history. Jeff> Another way to look at it is: one thing at a time. Work out Jeff> the balances of plain vanilla daily life first; when they Jeff> are running reasonably swimmingly, *then* start working on Jeff> the adjustments of sex. Don't try to do everything at once. Chuq> Jeff, sex simply isn't that BIG of a problem. In fact, I'd Chuq> be willing to wager that most people wouldn't consider it a Chuq> problem at all (It's a feature, not a bug!). You ought to Chuq> try it sometime. Until you do, please don't give Chuq> illconceived advice based upon your own naive fears. People Chuq> have been fooling around for hundreds of years, at least, Chuq> and the world hasn't gone off it's axis yet. I would strongly disagree, friend. Sex is a form of communication. It is something that is learned. There are problems that arise. For Jeff, I do think the best thing for him to do is to wait until the other aspects of his life are more or less stable before facing the educational experience of relating to a lover on a sexual level. I think perhaps he is mistaken in thinking that it should be the last thing a couple should explore, but then again, it is his choice. I think the experience would be good for him, and would probably make him more confident in his approach to relationships. I also feel that he will have trouble finding people willing to make the kind of strong commitments he speaks of with out exploring that aspect of his nature. The fact that `` everyone else '' does it doesn't make it wrong or right. If you're in it for more than just getting your rocks off, sex can present some significant problems. It can be awkward while you're still learning the language. O.K.? Jeff> The obvious difficulties in this arise from this not being Jeff> the best of all possible worlds: a) the temptation to go Jeff> ahead with sex would be there, and would probably be very Jeff> strong; Chuq> The word 'understatement' comes to mind. As a matter of Chuq> fact, we are both so weak in our vows that we've given into Chuq> the temptation. Repeatedly. I don't see any problem with Chuq> that, as long as we don't disturb the neighbors or do Chuq> terrible things to their dog with a fork or something. The important thing here is that, what ever you do, it is natural. I think that if he were ever in that situation, sex would occur much earlier than they would ever suspect. Once that happens, it is important how you respond to it. A really terrific relationship can be ruined beyond repair by sexual guilt transferral. If the feeling is that strong, it might be a better idea to bend to it, rather than waiting for it to break you. I will repeat, communication is important. Not only during, but afterwards. It is a process of getting to know your partner. Intimately. With a lack of experience, it can be clumsy, which means you have to work that much harder at it. Jeff> b) even if you didn't give in to that temptation, you'd have Jeff> a tough time convincing outsiders of your celibacy Jeff> (particularly parents, I suppose). Chuq> No, I could convince people of our celibacy, it's our sanity Chuq> they would wonder about... If I were you, I wouldn't talk so freely about sanity. I have this feeling you confuse sanity with conformity. I think it is important to remember that your relationship is between your partner and you. No one else. Nobody. Absolutely. Do what you feel is right. It really is no one else's business. You will have enough to deal with without peer pressure, believe me. Jeff> But the idea still seems to me to have some wisdom in it. Jeff> Perhaps you could try it, and let the net know how it works Jeff> out? Chuq> you've been working on the celibacy thing a lot longer than Chuq> we have, and have been reporting at great length about it. Chuq> Tell you what-- we'll try it our way, and if it works out Chuq> maybe you might be interested in joining the human race with Chuq> us sometime, too... I get the distinct feeling that you are attempting to stifle this person. If he is indeed having problems, you are succeeding only at making them worse. He appears to me to be fairly intelligent, and his postings make excellent food for thought. I think he is trying to open up to us. I would personally like to see more. The manner in which he expresses his opinions reveal a fairly open mind. I hope you don't confuse him with the other religious zealots that have been known to inhabit this newsgroup. For Jeff, I would like to recommend that you read a good book on psychology. And digest it. The longer you hold out, the stronger your fear of noncommittal relationships will manifest itself, the harder it will be to adjust to an experienced partner. You will have alot of catching up to do. You may hold out for someone with as little experience as yourself, but you will probably want to consider that these people become increasingly rare as you get older. The choice is up to you. And to you, Chuq, I would remind you that you are supposedly the self appointed law enforcement in this news group, and if you wish to remain so, should put your personal feelings a little more to the side. Let me give you a clue: Jeff is NOT your primary threat. ----{ john williams }---- < You remind me of someone from long ago > (DEC E-NET) KIRK::WILLIAMS (UUCP) {decvax, ucbvax, allegra}!decwrl!dec-rhea!dec-kirk!williams (ARPA) williams%kirk.DEC@decwrl.ARPA williams%kirk.DEC@Purdue-Merlin.ARPA