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Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!bonnie!akgua!sdcsvax!sdcrdcf!hplabs!hao!seismo!umcp-cs!tove!liz
From: liz@tove.UUCP (Liz Allen)
Newsgroups: net.abortion
Subject: Re: An abortion story
Message-ID: <46@tove.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 28-Nov-84 00:21:03 EST
Article-I.D.: tove.46
Posted: Wed Nov 28 00:21:03 1984
Date-Received: Fri, 30-Nov-84 07:44:54 EST
References: <44@tove.UUCP> <1092@ut-ngp.UUCP>
Reply-To: liz@tove.UUCP (Liz Allen)
Organization: U of Maryland, Laboratory for Parallel Computation, C.P., MD
Lines: 131

In article <1092@ut-ngp.UUCP> kjm@ut-ngp.UUCP (Ken Montgomery) writes:

>The degree of development of the child is irrelevant.

It probably is irrelevant to you, but the humanity of the unborn
child is an important issue for many and one way to measure that
is by how well formed it is.  I have talked to women considering
getting an abortion to whom this fact was both relevant and suprising
-- our media has not been very fair in presenting this side of the
issue.  Women considering whether or not to get an abortion usually
speak about whether or not they "will have a baby".  They don't
seem to realize that they already have one...

>						        Why does an
>unborn child (or any child) have the right to have its life supported
>by its mother?  Why does it even have the right to remain inside her
>body against her will?  By what principle?  Why is this principle valid?

Its right to remain in the mother's body against the mother's will is
dependant on whether or not its life is valued more than mother's
inconvenience to carry the baby to term.

>> = Liz Allen
>>2.  The child is animated -- he doesn't just sleep unaware of
>>anything but seems quite active.
>
>So what?

It is relevant if you are trying to determine the humanity of the
child.

>>3.  The child is aware of the attack -- he moves away from the
>>instrument and as far away as possible.
>
>Or was he merely pushed away by it?

No, the amnionic sac broke as soon as the instrument made contact with
it.

>>4.  The child reacts to pain and seems aware of his death -- the
>>silent scream...
>
>Cats also react to pain.  However, the evidence given in no way shows
>that the child "seems aware of his death".  How can you tell what is
>going on in the child's brain, such of it as there is at 10 weeks?

That's why I said "seems".  Though I think if you saw an adult react
the same way, you'd think that they were aware of their death...

I would also like to point out that here you do think the development
of the child's brain is relevant and the actions of the child throughout
the narrative would indicate a fairly high amount of brain activity
(relative to the typical picture of next to none which is argued by
the pro-choice side).

>>I didn't post this to be gross or emotional -- even though this
>>narrative is both these things.  I posted it because if there was
>>a window to the womb, abortion would be as unthinkable as murder.
>
>Why would abortion necessarily be unthinkable?  I don't see any
>causal link here.

If it causes you to grant a high degree of humanity to the unborn
and if you value humanity, then abortion does become unthinkable.

>>I think it says a lot (negative) about our society that at a time
>>in which we know so much more about fetal development than ever
>>before, we still don't consider abortion unequivocally wrong...
>
>Why does society even have a role in the decision?

Because if society decides it has a vested interest in its unborn (as
it has decided for the born), then it may decide that that the
unborn's life is more important than the woman's resultant
inconvenience and make abortion illegal.

>Tell me, Ms. Allen, are you willing to carry any and all children
>that you might conceive?

Yes, I am willing to carry any and all children I might conceive.

>			   Either way, why do you think you have
>the right to force other women to carry unwanted children?

I'm not sure that I have the right, but I do believe society does.  I
don't mean that society doesn't have any responsibilities towards the
woman, but I do believe it has a responsibility to protect the life of
the unborn.

The reasons a woman may want to get an abortion are many and varied.
From the women I've talked to, most would rather carry the baby to
term (given that they are now pregnant) or would definitely carry to
term if the pregnancy had occurred at some other more convenient time.
However, they find some of the circumstances of their life such that
carrying to full term seems too hard.  I think that our society would
be much better off helping the women solve their problems and carry
the baby than to provide the "easy" solution of abortion.  I also
think that option of adoption is rejected too quickly.  I know that it
is difficult to give up a baby for adoption, but in the long run it
could well be a better solution both for the woman and the child in
the cases where the woman knows she is not ready to take on the
responsibility of raising a child.  

Providing alternatives to abortion requires more commitment and more
love, but isn't it worth it?  (I know, I know, this is an emotional
appeal... but isn't it better to support life than to kill it???)

Some of you who weren't on the net way back before net.abortion was
even created won't know how it is I know as much as I do about why
women consider abortion, so I'll explain that.  I worked in a crisis
pregnancy center near my home (in the Maryland suburbs of Washington
DC) running pregnancy tests and counseling women for about a year and
a half.  During that time, I talked to a lot of women who were
considering getting an abortion -- their reasons and their situations.

Gerald Owens is right, by the way, in saying that the pro-life
movement is waking up to providing help to women in crisis due to
pregnancy.  I work on a coalition for Pregnancy Assistance which
will be placing women in the private homes of people willing to open
their homes in order to help a woman.  This is very important to me
because merely telling a woman that she should not get an abortion is
*not* enough!
-- 
				-Liz Allen

Univ of Maryland, College Park MD	
Usenet:   ...!seismo!umcp-cs!liz
Arpanet:  liz@tove (or liz@maryland)

"This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you:  God
 is light; in him there is no darkness at all" -- 1 John 1:5