Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site cbscc.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!cbosgd!cbsck!cbscc!pmd From: pmd@cbscc.UUCP (Paul Dubuc) Newsgroups: net.abortion Subject: Re: Maternal Death from Abortion. Message-ID: <4314@cbscc.UUCP> Date: Mon, 10-Dec-84 14:52:09 EST Article-I.D.: cbscc.4314 Posted: Mon Dec 10 14:52:09 1984 Date-Received: Tue, 11-Dec-84 04:28:11 EST References: <215@looking.UUCP> <4230@cbscc.UUCP> <10134@watmath.UUCP>, <1550@pur-phy.UUCP> <4262@cbscc.UUCP> <2623@dartvax.UUCP> Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus Lines: 97 }> = me (Paul Dubuc) } = Betsy Hanes Perry }> Maternal death due to illegal abortions before Row vs. Wade were greatly }> exaggerated by groups like NARAL. Dr. Bernard Nathanson (NARAL cofounder) }> has said in "Aborting America" that they deliberately lied to the press }> and their claims were given wide and uncritical support. The Encylclopedia }> of Criminal Law and Justice gives an estimated figure of 8000 deaths per }> year in 1958 (I think) without citing any source. }> }> However, in Sept. 1967 the International Conference on Abortion was held }> in Wash. DC. Its participants included doctors, lawyers, theologans, }> sociologists, and ethicists representing different views. A book based }> on the proceedings was published called "The Terrible Choice: The }> Abortion Dilemma" (Bantam, 1968). It says the following about deaths from }> abortion (p. 43): }> }> If the number of abortions performed is difficult to come }> by, the number of deaths resulting form abortion is eaiser }> to obtain. As one conference participant, Dr. Christopher }> Tietze, pointed out, those who die from abortion do so mainly }> as a result of hemorrage or infection. In either circumstance }> they are likely to be seen in a hospital, where the condition }> will be diagnosed. Those who die on arrival in hospitals, }> or shortly thereafter, usually undergo autopsies. }> }The following is from "The Year of the Intern", a fictionalized account }of his internship year by Robin Cook, M.D., Harcourt Brace Jovanovitch, }copyright 1972. } }..."Most cases of Gram-negative sepsis that I had seen came from urinary-tract }infections. Criminal abortions were the not-so-rare exceptions. At the }end of my gynecology service in third-year med school, we had seen so many }septic criminal abortions that an epidemic seemed to be sweeping New York. }Young girls, mostly, who generally waited until the infection was roaring }until they came in, and even then they gave us no help with the diagnosis. }Never. Some of them died denying the abortion right up to the end. With }the legalization of abortion, I suppose the picture has changed, but many }times back then I saw Gram-negative sepsis set in, with the irreversible }combination of zero blood pressure, failing kidneys, and dying liver." } }(No, this book is NOT imaginative fiction; it's "names-changed-to-protect- }the-innocent" fiction. It's drawn from real experiences.) } }I don't know whether Dr. Nathanson was lying or not. Unfortunately, }the only sources of information on deaths from illegal abortion are }anecdotal. As my citation points out, women dying from illegal abortions }tend to deny the cause, both because of societal pressures and because }of fear of prosecution. As a result, *any* figures on the rate of }deaths from abortions must be guesses. Even autopsy reports are only }a rough indicator; many families still refuse to allow autopsies, }and the official cause of death has been known to be laundered to protect }a grieving family's pride. One clarification: Nathanson has said that he deliberately lied about maternal death rates, that he and the others at NARAL knew the figures they quoted (8000 - 10,000) were totally false. And that it was more likely to have been closer to 500 deaths per year (See his book "Aborting America"). It is interesting to note from my previous citation of the doctors at the conference that this is the figure that they agreed on. They more than doubled the reported figure to cover the margin of error. Those reported figures included deaths form *all* types of abortion not just illegal ones. This tells me that Nathanson (certainly someone at NARAL) knew of the conference results, but ignored them. Also, three of the fifteen doctors that reached that concensus at the conference were also from New York, as is Cook. Could an epidemic have happened between 1968 and 1972? Maybe. But what could possibly have caused it? For reference those doctors are: Christopher Tietze, M.D. (mentioned above in my excerpt) Bio-Medical div., The Population Council Sophia J. Kleegman, M.D. Professor of Ob. and Gyn., NYU College of Medicine Natalie Shainess, M.D. Lecturer, Columbia College of Physicians and Surgeons Betsy is not responding to the statistics cited from the conference just after she cut off the above quote. I don't fault her for using an anecdotal response. I do think they have value (as long as one takes into account that it is the perspective of one person). However, I would like to make one point. Whenever I have used anecdotes in my argument I have often been screamed at for not providing statistics to back them up. Which form of data is more useful, statistical studies or anecdotes? It's true that these kinds of statistics are inherently unreliable. I made that point myself. But my main point was that the data that did exist do not support deaths of epidemic proportions and that there was a lot of hype (admitted by Nathanson) that went into the media at the time from those pushing to legalize abortion on demand. The agrument that illegal abortion contributed as the No. 1 cause of death before 1973 is, to say the least, unsupported by any evidence. Can we put that argument to bed now? -- Paul Dubuc cbscc!pmd