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From: tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney)
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Re: Science & Religion
Message-ID: <20980021@cmu-cs-k.ARPA>
Date: Mon, 10-Dec-84 06:11:07 EST
Article-I.D.: cmu-cs-k.20980021
Posted: Mon Dec 10 06:11:07 1984
Date-Received: Wed, 12-Dec-84 06:21:05 EST
References: <1418@umcp-cs.UUCP>
Organization: Carnegie-Mellon University, CS/RI
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> In article <20980005@cmu-cs-k.ARPA> tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney) writes:
> 
> >If a religion's benefits are not reproducible, that religion is a fraud.
> >You can only waste your time through membership.
> 
> I suppose this means that Judaism is a fraud, because God chose to part the
> Sea of Reeds only once.  It seems rather presumptious to me to claim that
> God has to produce miracles on demand-- which is all Tim's statement amounts
> to.  Since God is omnipotent, there is no reason to expect him to be bound
> to  some sort of rule which can be modelled scientifically.  I expect God
> to do lots of unreproducible things, unreproducible in the sense that we
> can't set up the proper situation and expect the miracle to be repeated.
> 
> Charley Wingate    umcp-cs!mangoe

In Judaism, the parting of the sea of reeds is typically considered a
metaphor with multiple levels of meaning, which may or may not correspond to
a historical event.  If someone claimed that Judaism conferred the benefit
that water would move out of your way when you had to get away from someone
then, yes, I would call that person a fraud.

Judaism is, as I understand it, supposedly the best way for a Jew to live.
It is up to each person doing the experiment to verify whether this is true.
I have not lived as a Jew nor am I Jewish, so I do not know.  I do know that
I consider the Noachian law to contain tribal prejudices which are
inaccurate, particularly the prohibition of polytheism.

(However, I don't think Charles was really very concerned with my answer;
the message smacks more of an attempt to discredit me by insinuating a form
of anti-Semitism.  Why Judaism in particular?)

If a religion claims that God will intervene in a variety of ways which
cannot be predicted to the benefit of the worshipper, and that does not
happen, then the religion is a fraud.  These tests are not hard to perform
if you are really unbiased about the issue, but impossible if you want to
believe one way or the other.  For instance, I was initiated into the O.T.O.
when I was 18; since then, my salary and lifestyle have improved to a truly
absurd extent.  I do not attribute this to my initiation, but if I had been
"born again" instead of initiated, a lot of people (praticularly on TV)
would be urging me to consider the lifestyle improvement a gift from God.
Wishful thinking is anathema to science.
-=-
Tim Maroney, Carnegie-Mellon University Computation Center
ARPA:	Tim.Maroney@CMU-CS-K	uucp:	seismo!cmu-cs-k!tim
CompuServe:	74176,1360	audio:	shout "Hey, Tim!"

"Remember all ye that existence is pure joy; that all the sorrows are
but as shadows; they pass & are done; but there is that which remains."
Liber AL, II:9.