Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site cmu-cs-k.ARPA Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!cbosgd!ihnp4!zehntel!hplabs!hao!seismo!rochester!cmu-cs-pt!cmu-cs-k!tim From: tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney) Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: Re: Science & Religion Message-ID: <20980021@cmu-cs-k.ARPA> Date: Mon, 10-Dec-84 06:11:07 EST Article-I.D.: cmu-cs-k.20980021 Posted: Mon Dec 10 06:11:07 1984 Date-Received: Wed, 12-Dec-84 06:21:05 EST References: <1418@umcp-cs.UUCP> Organization: Carnegie-Mellon University, CS/RI Lines: 49 > In article <20980005@cmu-cs-k.ARPA> tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney) writes: > > >If a religion's benefits are not reproducible, that religion is a fraud. > >You can only waste your time through membership. > > I suppose this means that Judaism is a fraud, because God chose to part the > Sea of Reeds only once. It seems rather presumptious to me to claim that > God has to produce miracles on demand-- which is all Tim's statement amounts > to. Since God is omnipotent, there is no reason to expect him to be bound > to some sort of rule which can be modelled scientifically. I expect God > to do lots of unreproducible things, unreproducible in the sense that we > can't set up the proper situation and expect the miracle to be repeated. > > Charley Wingate umcp-cs!mangoe In Judaism, the parting of the sea of reeds is typically considered a metaphor with multiple levels of meaning, which may or may not correspond to a historical event. If someone claimed that Judaism conferred the benefit that water would move out of your way when you had to get away from someone then, yes, I would call that person a fraud. Judaism is, as I understand it, supposedly the best way for a Jew to live. It is up to each person doing the experiment to verify whether this is true. I have not lived as a Jew nor am I Jewish, so I do not know. I do know that I consider the Noachian law to contain tribal prejudices which are inaccurate, particularly the prohibition of polytheism. (However, I don't think Charles was really very concerned with my answer; the message smacks more of an attempt to discredit me by insinuating a form of anti-Semitism. Why Judaism in particular?) If a religion claims that God will intervene in a variety of ways which cannot be predicted to the benefit of the worshipper, and that does not happen, then the religion is a fraud. These tests are not hard to perform if you are really unbiased about the issue, but impossible if you want to believe one way or the other. For instance, I was initiated into the O.T.O. when I was 18; since then, my salary and lifestyle have improved to a truly absurd extent. I do not attribute this to my initiation, but if I had been "born again" instead of initiated, a lot of people (praticularly on TV) would be urging me to consider the lifestyle improvement a gift from God. Wishful thinking is anathema to science. -=- Tim Maroney, Carnegie-Mellon University Computation Center ARPA: Tim.Maroney@CMU-CS-K uucp: seismo!cmu-cs-k!tim CompuServe: 74176,1360 audio: shout "Hey, Tim!" "Remember all ye that existence is pure joy; that all the sorrows are but as shadows; they pass & are done; but there is that which remains." Liber AL, II:9.