Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site voder.UUCP
Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!cbosgd!ihnp4!zehntel!dual!amd!pesnta!hplabs!nsc!voder!kathy
From: kathy@voder.UUCP (Kathy Hale)
Newsgroups: net.taxes
Subject: Re: VAT
Message-ID: <538@voder.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 30-Nov-84 13:36:49 EST
Article-I.D.: voder.538
Posted: Fri Nov 30 13:36:49 1984
Date-Received: Tue, 4-Dec-84 04:40:46 EST
References: <700@oliven.UUCP>
Organization: National Semiconductor, Santa Clara
Lines: 253

> []
> GIVEN: 1   Our income tax system stinks. (other than CPA' & IRS 
> 		agents NO one has a good word to say about it )
> GIVEN: 2   The shoe store sells shoes
> GIVEN: 3   Congress sells loopholes (the current tax mess IS the
>            aggregate of all the past loop-holes congress has sold)
> GIVEN: 4   No social institution, least of all the US congress ever
> 		voluntarily gives up political power.
> GIVEN: 5   People who babble on about congress passing a 'flat rate
> 		income tax' are hoplessly naive.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> Anyone can point out the obvious, what is the answer? 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> 	
> 	A grass-roots movement to pass a constitutional amendment that
> will make all forms of income tax illegal - and replace it dollar for
> dollar with a Value Added Tax (VAT).
> 	PROVISIONS:
> 	1 It is illegal for any state, federal or local government in
> the US to tax corporate or individual income in any way.
> 	2 The VAT maximum total percentage tax is set by a referendum
> constitutional amendment and can ONLY be changed by the same process.
> This total percentage is the total of all state , federal & local VAT's .
> This will have the effect of a NATIONAL prop. 13
> 	3 Loophole no.1 staple food items are exempt. (It is legally impossible
> to 'add value to' food.
> 	4 Loophole no.2 items for export are exempt. US VAT is only applied
> to items sold in the US.
> 	5 THERE ARE NO OTHER LOOPHOLES.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 	It is essential that this be done as a constitutional amendment,
> effectively bypassing the congress. Otherwise the entire exercise will
> become counter productive. They will KEEP income tax AND add the VAT !
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ->QUESTION: 	Isn't VAT just a sales tax? 
> ANSWER: 	NO. With a 10% sales tax $2.00 pair of socks cost $2.20
> 		    With VAT a $2.00 pair of socks costs $2.00
> ADVANTAGES TO: 
> 	Left  of center stateists.   VAT retains the one redeeming feature
> 		of personal income tax withholding , it is invisible to the
> 		user. (people are much more enthusiasm about redistribution 
> 		of wealth if they don't realize it is THEIR wealth that is
> 		being reassigned.)
> 	Liberterians	Anything is better than the current system. 
> 	Right of center stateists.	A taxpayers revolt is brewing ,
> 		there is the ever present danger that the peasants will
> 		turn to the easy answers of socialism if given a chance.
> 		Lock in the status quo with a VAT.
> 		     
> ->QUESTION: 	So who pays the tax?
> ANSWER:         Business (non export or non food) If VAT is 10% and a
> 		business increases the value of its product by $2.00
> 		then it must send the government 20 cents.
> ADVANTAGES TO: 
> 	Left of center stateists. 	It will appear to the people that
> 		they pay nothing, and the greedy capitalists get stuck.
> 	Liberterians	Those of you who own businesses know that you
> 		send checks to the government all of the time. Nothing
> 		changes.
> 	Right of center stateists.	Businessmen will love it. They
> 		get to pass the cost of the VAT directly on to the consumer.
> 		Exports are indirectly subsidized, allowing them to compete
> 		unfairly in the export markets.
> 
> ->QUESTION: 	Who decides that a business has added value and how much? 
> ANSWER: 	The same people you are now dealing with at the IRS .
> 		We just change the name of IRS to something else.   VAS??
> ADVANTAGES TO: 
> Left of center stateists. 	Democrats have been changing the names of
> 				bankrupt social programs for years. Make
> 				it appear that IRS is being abolished.
> 				Reassure IRS agents , CPA's etc. that they
> 				have job security with the new VAT bureau.
> 				(accept lots of money from their PACs)
> Liberterians	Gradualism is the buzz word , our time will come later. see
> 		below for advantages.
> Right of center stateists.	This is business as usual.
> 		     
> ->QUESTION: 	Who decides what the maximum amount VAT will be? 
> ANSWER: 	The people do , with a constitutional amendment.
> 		If it is decided that a fair flat rate tax rate is
> 		18% then the MAX VAT total tax rate will be 18%
> 		(for example a 100% total VAT would double the cost 
> 		of items as seen by the consumer)
> ADVANTAGES TO: 
> Left of center stateists. 	Fairness, hit 'm with fairness , ALL
> 				business appear to pay the same VAT.
> Liberterians	The government is a gigantic rabid dog that is running
> 		loose and growing in size and ferocity. 
> 		A maximum tax rate cast in granite,(by a constitutional
> 		amendment) will fix for all time, the length of the leash
> 		that this dog will be shackled to.
> Right of center stateists.	Actually they don't , the TOTAL is
> 				fixed by law , what share of the total
> 				any given business will pay is subject
> 				to negotiation.(Endless opportunity for
> 				campaign contributions.)
> 		     
> ->QUESTION:	You mean I get to keep 100% of my income?
> ANSWER: 	YES. 
> ADVANTAGES TO: 
> Left of center stateists. 	You can't win them all. But cheer up,
> 				people will sooner or later get tired
> 				of hiding their money in banks and buy
> 				something with it. At that point we can
> 				redistribute their wealth.
> Liberterians	With big brother out of the income business ,we can achieve
> 		a great measure of personal and financial privacy. There
> 		would be no barriers to passing Swiss style Banking security
> 		laws.
> Right of center stateists.	Is there an individual or a business man
> 				that won't jump for joy when you tell them
> 				that you have IRS off their back once and
> 				for all. Bankers will give massive campaign
> 				contributions for Banking security laws.
> 				(and a chance to compete for the billions
> 				the Swiss have hidden away)
> 		     
> ->QUESTION:    			Is VAT fair? 
> ANSWER: 			Yes. 
> ADVANTAGES TO: 
> Left of center stateists. 	Everyone pays the same VAT by purchasing
> 				goods in the USA. Everyone pays the same
> 				rate NO exceptions. It is the ultimate
> 				flat rate tax. It is inherently fair.
> Liberterians	This is better than dealing with the IRS. Lets not oppose
> 		it. With time people will see the advantage of having the
> 		dangerous dog of government on a leash. Then we can begin
> 		pointing out that an even shorter leash will be even better.
> Right of center stateists.	The VAT cost is hidden in the price of each
> 				item, the effect is the same as inflation.
> 				If the average take home pay is increased
> 				by the same amount as the cost of living
> 				increase, no change in average standard
> 				of living will result. No public outcry.
> 		     
> ->QUESTION:   			Can the VAT be evaded?
> ANSWER: 			By individuals, No. (it would be necessary
> 				to smuggle foreign goods to avoid paying
> 				the hidden VAT included in the cost of
> 				all goods for sale in the US)
> ADVANTAGES TO: 
> Left of center stateists. 	This is all pervasive big brotherism it
> 				will make socialists everywhere feel good
> 				to have thought of a tax that can't be
> 				evaded.
> Liberterians 	Give what is Ceasar's unto Caesar. 
> Right of center stateists.	Conservatives are going nuts trying to stop
> 				the drug industry. There are coke dealers
> 				driving around in Mercedes 450's who don't
> 				pay a dime of tax. It will make the
> 				conservatives feel good to realize they have
> 				thought of a way to tax the multi billion
> 				dollar drug industry.
> 		     
> ->QUESTION:    			Will anyone pay VAT who does not now pay tax? 
> ANSWER: 			Yes. The entire underground economy will
> 				be taxed at the same rate as everyone else.
> ADVANTAGES TO: 
> Left of center stateists. 	Think of all that money just waiting to be
> 				redistribute.
> Liberterians 	The government will soon be unable to get along without this
> 		'new' money. Legalization is only possible after a wide spread
> 		social acceptance of the 'necessity' of this kind of business.
> Right of center stateists. 	Think of all that money just waiting to be
> 				taxed.
> 		     
> ->QUESTION:    			But will VAT feed the poor? 
> ANSWER: 			Yes. 
> ADVANTAGES TO: 
> Left of center stateists. 	Liberals will claim they were for it all
> 				along. By exempting staple foods from
> 				VAT , food will be held at an artificially
> 				low price. The poor will be able to
> 				feed themselves with much less difficulty.
> Liberterians 	As Liberterians we can argue: Look at what a good deal food
> 		is. If we have our way (eliminate government) all goods
> 		will then become as cheap as food is now.
> Right of center stateists.	A good cheap way to feed the poor is good
> 				politics.(they remain docile and apolitical)
> 		     
> ->QUESTION:    			Will VAT increase exports (help deal with
> 				the massive trade imbalance)?
> ANSWER: 			Yes. 
> ADVANTAGES TO: 
> Left of center stateists. 	Liberals have long been crying about foreign
> 				'dumping' and crying for protectionist 
> 				measures. The 'dumping' is not the result
> 				of foreign philanthropy , but rather the
> 				result of foreign VAT's that exempt exported
> 				goods. (a fact that has been kept from
> 				most americans). Liberals will label
> 				the VAT a protectionist measure that gives
> 				'those foreign capitalists' a dose of their
> 				own medicine.
> Liberterians 	Increased exports are a good thing. 
> Right of center stateists.	American export business is hard hit by
> 				the overvalued dollar. Republicans will
> 				claim they support the VAT because it
> 				is not protectionism but rather an
> 				economic 'incentive' to export.
> 		     
> ->QUESTION:    			Will VAT encourage savings and investments
> 				and entrepreneurism?
> ANSWER: 			Yes. 
> ADVANTAGES TO: 
> Left of center stateists. 	None. All of the above mentioned activities 
> 				are terrible and must be discouraged. 
> 				We will however support the
> 				measure because of its other excellent
> 				socialist features.
> Liberterians 	100% of your income is yours reguardless of its source.
> 		Very liberterian. Interest, dividends ,capital gains ...
> 		all yours, keep it all. Reinvest to your hearts content
> 		this is capitalism for everyone.
> Right of center stateists.	People will quit chasing bizarre 'tax free'
> 				investments and tax shelters and simply
> 				put the money where it earns the best return
> 				Reinvesting to earn more 'income' won't
> 				be penalized. Large pools of investment
> 				money will build up and  drive interest rates
> 				down. (conservatives claim to believe in suply
> 				and demand). Lower interest rates are
> 				good for General Motors and the Republican
> 				party.
> 		     
> ->QUESTION:			Will the rich pay their fair share?
> ANSWER: 			Yes. 
> ADVANTAGES TO:
> Left of center stateists.	The question was really 'how can we
> 				make the rich pay more than I do'?
> 				By having a rich life style (conspicuous
> 				consumption) the wealthy will pay 
> 				much more in VAT as the result of
> 				having bought more.
> Liberterians		This is a good start , in time we can work for
> 			making all tax voluntary.
> Right of center stateists.	The wealthy enjoy being able to display 
> 				their ability to afford conspicuous
> 				consumption. Nothing really changes.
> 				Besides capital gains on investments
> 				are now FREE of tax.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 	
> 					Dan Wootan

Dan, we don't need some new economic tax scheme or scheme scheme.
We heed to return to sound money, sound government, and sound
law, to wit: the Constitution.  We had a new scheme in 1913 and
1914.

*** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE ***