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From: lab@qubix.UUCP (Q-Bick)
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Re: Bick's Babblings
Message-ID: <1571@qubix.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 7-Dec-84 02:02:38 EST
Article-I.D.: qubix.1571
Posted: Fri Dec  7 02:02:38 1984
Date-Received: Sun, 9-Dec-84 02:22:52 EST
References: <1762@ucf-cs.UUCP>
Organization: Quadratix ... Quartix
Lines: 106

[Due to a recent Qubix policy statement regarding non-technical
newsgroups, this may be my last posting for a while. My failure to
respond to anything later from Yiri or others is not to be seen as a
concession of any point. I will still be available by e-mail.]

In thinking over Yiri's points, I almost came to the conclusion that he
was just trying straighten out Gentiles much as I would try to straighten
out someone who was following Mormonism. It was just that his message was
hidden by the tone of his articles. --- Then I re-read his articles.

His position is not one of strength, but of inaccessibility. When
someone would counter him in a particular area, he would close that off
with "No,no, you gotta do it this way." Well, foo on that. He still
hasn't made his case to me.  His latest epithet said nothing that
supported it. He continues to focus on the leaves of the tree of his
argument rather than letting someone check the roots and branches.

> Parkes has been a widely respected Oxford scholar...

I mentioned something about being in a class with Union Theological or
Chicago...

> ...and Bagatti was written up in the Biblical Archaeological Review.

Surely you can do better than that. Credentials, please. Further, I can
only presume you mean Biblical Archaeology Review.

> Why don't you get off your duff and obtain a little learning...

Why don't you go to those who already have the learning? Oh, excuse me,
"they have an axe to grind." Double foo. Why don't *you* get off *your*
duff and find out a little more about Feinberg & Rosenthal? While you're
at it, do some research on the Bar Cochba revolt of A.D.132 and Rabbi
Akiba's declaration of Bar Cochba as Messiah - something the Hebrew
Christians would not take.

With all the time that Yiri devotes to this, he supposes that those of
us working 60 hours a week and having another primary concentration off
work should be able to give the same amount of time. Why doesn't Yiri
take up his case directly with someone from, say, Dallas or Grace
Theological Seminary? Perhaps he should try to contact Charles Feinberg
directly at Biola University, La Mirada, CA. That should also take care
of Yiri's flippant dismissal of Feinberg's credentials as an orthodox
rabbi and one who understands Judaism (I note that Yiri dropped similar
comments about Feinberg's understanding of Christianity. BTW, don't
forget Feinberg is also an archeologist). Rosenthal can be reached at
Friends of Israel, Box 123, West Collingswood, NJ 08107. Sar Shalom
Publications (Box 1331, Englewood Cliffs, NJ 07632) is another resource.

> Just evaluating what you have written (even though I strongly suspect
> that, like your other assertions, it is heavily 'colored'),...

And Yiri was complaining and accusing others of judging *his* heart?
You accuse yourself, O hypocrite!

> You must offer more than your babbling to show that the NASB people
> had no axe to grind.

You must offer more than your babbling to show that they *do*. Your
case thus far is totally inadequate. Besides, someone else having
an *alleged* axe 2000 years ago is no indication of an axe now.

> > ...to get the New Testament anywhere close to what Yiri claims it to
> > be would require more than a mere "redaction" - it would entail a
> > COMPLETE REWRITING.
> Provide some basis for your babblings other than the babblings
> themselves.

Maybe if you'd stop with the insults, you might find better results.
Anyway, start with Acts
7 Stephen vs. the *Jewish* Council
8 the Jews wouldn't normally deal with Samaritans
9 the change in Saul and his preaching to the Jews
10-11 Peter went to the *uncircumcised*, and defended it before those
   who chastised him
12 killing James and imprisoning Peter would be nothing to the Gentiles
13-14 opposition springing from the Jews, not the Gentiles
15 the entire question of keeping the Law
16 the jailer was told nothing about keeping the Law
17 the Bereans *searched the scriptures*, plus more Jewish
   opposition, plus Paul's specific address to the Athenians
18 more Jewish opposition, plus still more preaching by Jews about Messiah
19 Paul vs. the synagogue, and withdrawing therefrom
20 Paul's message not one of obeying the Law
21 Paul seized by the *Jews* for allegedly bringing a Gentile beyond
    the Court of the Gentiles
22 defense before the Jews, who then rioted
23 defense before the *Jewish* Council
28 more preaching to the Jews, again nothing about keeping the Law

then you can chuck all of Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, and Hebrews, plus
all of John's writings. Oh yes, and Philippians 3:2-11, particularly 7
	"But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have
	counted as loss for the sake of Christ" (NASB)
What things? His Hebrew credentials that he lists in the preceding verses!

Yiri fudges on direct questions as to whether or not he keeps Torah, yet
he insists that Christians should bear such a yoke, one which neither he
nor his fathers was able to bear (cf. Acts 15:10 - go ahead, Yiri, tell
us how it *should* be translated :-). In Galatians, Paul blasts such
people (6:12-16 for example).
-- 
		The Ice Floe of Larry Bickford
		{amd,decwrl,sun,idi,ittvax}!qubix!lab

You can't settle the issue until you've settled how to settle the issue.