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From: rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Rich Rosen)
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Re: Pots and Pans
Message-ID: <334@pyuxd.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 12-Dec-84 15:58:23 EST
Article-I.D.: pyuxd.334
Posted: Wed Dec 12 15:58:23 1984
Date-Received: Thu, 13-Dec-84 02:40:46 EST
References: <548@uwmacc.UUCP>
Organization: Bell Communications Research, Piscataway N.J.
Lines: 218

> Rich Rosen has demonstrated to my satisfaction that he disagrees
> with me, and that's all.  However, he has also demonstrated, to his
> *own* satisfaction, that he has shown the complete lack of basis in
> reality of my beliefs.  The magnitude of this accomplishment should
> not be underestimated.  It is, in general, very difficult to
> convince Rich of anything.  :-)  [DUBOIS]

On the other hand, it is, in general, very easy to convince some people of
anything :-( .  Which is my point here.

> Concerning wishful thinking and presuppositions:  Rich continually
> brings these up, wishfully presupposing that my beliefs are based on
> the way I wishfully presuppose the way I would like the world to be.
> Such an argument must *always* fail in my case:  Before I became a
> Christian, I was content.  (At least I thought I was - I found out
> afterward that my "contentment" was a poor substitute for the peace
> of God - but I certainly had no motivation to change my beliefs
> because of any thoughts about the way I wished the world to be.)  I
> have state this in previous articles.  Since Rich seems not to be a
> careless reader, I am not sure why this argument is directed my way.
> Perhaps the postings never made it to his site. [DUBOIS]

Without getting into the fallacy "I 'thought' I was happy, but now I've
been indoctrinated into something else and I 'realize' that I wasn't happy
even though that's how I felt", let me reiterate.  Paul is consistently
claiming that *he* is not like other religious converts we've witnessed
in that his conversion wasn't based on fear or negative self-worth or ...
Thus, one must assume that, if Paul was indeed "content", he must have
either been shown significant evidence that led him to radically alter his
beliefs, or else he had a (perhaps latent) prior alignment (through societal
indoctrination perhaps) to the newfound doctrines.  In either case, he
accepted whatever evidence he found.  If he was truly content (and truly
inquisitive) he would have asked the same questions and brought up the same
issues that others in the newsgroup have.  The fact that he was apparently
satisfied with the answers means either:  1) he is as stringent as the rest
of us, and he had to have gotten answers that impressed him, 2) he is not
very stringent in his analysis, because he is gullible/stupid/etc., or 3) he
is not stringent in his analysis, because he had a vested interest in believing
the outcome to be a certain way.  Since we've heard no incredible unheard of
answers reiterated by Paul, we can rule out (1).  Assuming he's not gullible
or stupid or whatever, that means (3).  I hope I'm not making assumptions based
on wishful thinking here... :-)

> Notice also how Rich shoots himself in the foot here where he starts
> talking about "unreliability stemming from faulty patterning":  one
> of the bases for reliability of a phenomenon, in Rich's thinking, is
> that it be repeatable.  But a pattern is, after all, highly
> repetitive.  How then can it be faulty?  If it can't be, there are no faulty
> patterns.  If it can be, repeatability is no criterion for reliability.

There's a difference between introspective repeatability ("I looked up at the
moon and saw it wink at me three nights in a row.") and more objective
repeatability---which is attempted through the dreaded scientific method that
some seem to dread.  The goal of which is to attempt to make sure it's not
just your own unique faulty patterning.

>>>There's a rather loud assumption in that last statment.  See previous
>>>comment. [DUBOIS]
 
>>Needless to say, Paul feels he is NOT making "loud" assumptions.  He knows
>>the facts.  Just look at the rigorous analysis he did to get them. [ROSEN]

> Needless to say, Rich can set up a straw man with the best of us.  I
> didn't deny making assumptions (even loud ones).  Nor do I deny it
> now.  Rich's comments here are gratuitous - simply rattling pots and
> pans in the kitchen to make noise.  My point was that certain
> questions were being answered by begging them.  That point was, and
> remains, true. [DUBOIS]

And *my* point is Paul is just one of those pots calling a kettle black.
Problem is, Andy's kettle seems a lot cleaner than Paul's pot.  It makes
less assumptions for one thing.  (The basis of which are ... )

> I'm devastated.
> The path through which I obtain my knowledge can be shown to have
> been contested by one Rich Rosen.  That's all. [DUBOIS]

I guess that makes the numerous others in this newsgroup who have pointed out
holes in your belief system to be either; 1) non-existent, 2) unimportant,
3) me writing under another name, or 4) secret agents of Satan.  I'm aware
that some people don't think highly of what I have to say.  But don't think
you can tar the logic of what is being said by claiming it to be the product
of "one Rich Rosen".

>>>Can you prove your own position?  Hardly. [DUBOIS]

>>Thus, Paul's is right. [ROSEN]

> Twist and shout.  I didn't say that, now did I?

Shake it up, baby.  :-)  No, you just provided another example of pots
making erroneous statements about kettles.

> Anyway, if a wish for order is childish, then Rich has again
> destroyed the very basis upon which he determines reliability of
> evidence.  There goes the other foot.  Better get the crutches out,
> Rich?  (How about religion - that's a good "crutch", right?)

Again, there's a major difference between seeking to find the workings of
the universe through evidence and objective observation (without some
particular desired order in mind---take a look at modern physics) and
predefining a particular brand of order, involving benevolent control,
just because you'd like it.  If that's not wishful thinking, I don't
know what is.  (And stop taking potshots at my feet!!!  If I did need a
crutch, I'd use a wooden one, not a spiritual one.)

> He also destroys the basis upon which he wishes to criticize my
> position:  no absolute right/wrong means that there is no standard
> by which my position can be said to be better or worse than Rich's
> (or at least no standard which I can be expected to accept).
> Really, "better" and "worse" become meaningless.  

The use of absolute right/wrong was used in the context of absolute good/evil,
in a moral sense and not an observational sense.  And I'm sure Paul knew that
when he wrote what he did.  (Since many of recent articles addressed this
point.)  So why is *he* "twisting and shouting"?

> So why, Rich, do you bother to blast my statements?  Emotional release?  Do I
> threaten your beliefs? :-)

The notion that a group of people, duped into believing an incredulous series
of wishful thinking lies, can declare to me and other thinking individuals in
this country (and world) what is "morally" right and wrong, what we can and
cannot do (based, not on the notions I've put forth hundreds of times---
regarding minimal restrictions to provide maximal individual freedom---but
rather on arbitrary edicts that restrict people from doing things that these
"moral" people simply don't like), this notion is repugnant and dangerous.
If I can do one small thing to point out to just one person the fallacies in
the religious mindset, the dangers in allowing people with such mindsets to
formulate public policy for other innocent people, then I'd feel that the
"emotional release" (as Paul describes it) was worthwhile.  If doing this
requires showing that the basis by which these people seek to justify their
manipulation is erroneous, or pointing out how they are telling lies or
obscuring the truth to pursue their own ends, then so be it.  No, Paul,
you don't threaten my beliefs, much as you might like to think so. 
(Projection?)  The notion of millions like you deciding for me what my life
should be like threatens my very existence, and the existence of civilization.
Unless, of course, you preferred the Dark Ages...

>>>>Why can't we just say "I'm OK, You're OK", and leave it at that. [BANTA]

>>>Tell it to God.  He will say to you, just as He did to myself and
>>>Ken, "I'm OK, you're not."  [DUBOIS]

>>You must have a pretty low opinion of yourself to 1) say that to yourself and
>>2) believe that a deity would believe that too.  This negative Christian
>>mindset permeates our culture and reinforces these beliefs of unworthiness,
>>so it's no wonder people like Paul hear god saying those things---it's more
>>wishful thinking. [ROSEN]

> Rich speculates about my beliefs again.  Saying that man is lost and
> under God's judgment without Christ's redemption is not the same as
> saying that man is a zero.  I don't have a low opinion of myself.
> Man is made in the very image of God.  We are both, Rich and I,
> everlasting.  There is nothing trivial or low about that, in my
> view.  But one need not have a low opinion of oneself to recognize
> that the holiness of God and the sinfulness of man places man lower
> than God.  Even so, I don't go around in sackcloth and ashes,
> wailing and beating my breast.  Not *all* the time, anyway! :-)
> Praise God, the Lord Jesus Christ has set me free from sin and
> death!  [DUBOIS]

This clearly contradicts Paul's hearing god say "I'm OK, you're not".  He
has witnessed the sinfulness of man (i.e., man is not all "good", whatever
that means) and believes that there is a god who is not sinful, who is
miles above him in goodness.  Being less than a perfect god (which Paul deems
to exist) does not make one "not OK", yet this is what Paul has said, and
what he later contradicted.  Which is it?  Whatever is convenient?

> Also, I fail to understand how it is "wishful thinking" to make up a
> God who would say not "you're ok", but "you need to be changed."

It's wishful thinking to make up a god in any case.  (No, I don't expect
Paul to see that.  He doesn't engage in wishful thinking :-?)  If someone
needs to be changed, that judgment should be based on a careful evaluation
of what one is/does, and why one would need to change.

>>A rational minimal morality says one thing, in fact it says exactly what
>>Jesus is supposed to have said:  human beings are free to do anything that
>>doesn't harm another human being.  Why have anything on top of that?  Did god
>>say so, or do YOU want it to be so?  [ROSEN]

> "Why have anything on top of that?"  What!  Why have *even* that?
> (Rationally speaking, that is.)  Zero is less than one, so a
> rational minimal morality consists of zero propositions, i.e., does
> not exist.  To suppose it does is mere wishful thinking, Rich.
> Besides, those "billions of people with billions of personal
> interests" can hardly be expected to share your morality consisting
> of "one thing".  This follows from your *own* logic.

The one common interest of all the billions and billions of interests (and
people) is survival.  To ensure such survival in a world where there ARE
going to be conflicting interests, and to hopefully maximize the quality of
life as part of that ensured survival, one must make a compromise:  the minimum
set of rules to provide the maximum amount of freedom.  If your paragraph above
was supposed to debunk my notions of minimal rational morality, it didn't
do so.  I have stated that an established code is needed.  But you *could*
offer an explanation as to where my notion falls down and yours proves better.
(Beyond the assumption that your morality is god's morality; I would think
otherwise.  After all, which is the better way to raise children:  to establish
a set of rules and tell them "Obey or be punished", or to establish a set of
rules and encourage an understanding of their purpose and meaning, and why
adhering to them would improve their lives?  The real question being:  would
a truly benevolent almighty deity make rules FOR us, or would it give us the
faculties to understand what's in our best interest in the long-term?)

> "I will praise thee O Lord, in the midst of mine enemies"

Yipes!  Since this isn't a signature line (it was included within the body
of the article), I wonder if I was intended as the subject of this quotation.
Funny how religious people see anyone who seeks to encourage serious discussion
of the issues as "enemies".  Or liars.  Or "secret agents".

Since this discussion is starting to go far beyond the boundaries of general
interest (at least with respect to Paul's comments to me and vice versa) I
suggest that Paul and I continue any further communication offline.
-- 
When you're omniscient, everything's a tautology.      Rich Rosen    pyuxd!rlr