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From: aeq@pucc-h (Jeff Sargent)
Newsgroups: net.religion,net.flame
Subject: Re: Kulawiec on Sargent on speaking in tongues
Message-ID: <1525@pucc-h>
Date: Thu, 29-Nov-84 11:47:17 EST
Article-I.D.: pucc-h.1525
Posted: Thu Nov 29 11:47:17 1984
Date-Received: Sat, 1-Dec-84 05:50:50 EST
References: <231@pyuxd.UUCP> <1469@pucc-h>, <184@stat-l> <1489@pucc-h>, <191@stat-l> <1503@pucc-h>, <198@stat-l>
Organization: Purdue University Computing Crypt
Lines: 45

>>> = Rich Kulawiec
>>  = Jeff Sargent
>   = Rich Kulawiec

>	1. You *believe* you can repeat it [speaking in tongues].
>	2. You *believe* you've seen it before.
>	3. You *believe* it's not attributable to the laws of physics.

1.  Yes, I do believe.  Belief surpasses knowledge.  Of course, for that
    matter you could say I know I can repeat it, because I know God, and
    I know He doesn't fail.
2.  People who, from my general personal knowledge of them, had trustworthy
    characters, have said they experienced this phenomenon, sometimes in my
    presence.  I have no good reason to doubt that I've seen it before or
    that it has happened before.
3.  I find it hard to believe that the mere act of a man's laying his hands
    on my shoulders and saying a few words could possibly physically change
    me so that now, over 12 years later, I can still speak in tongues!  Your
    (apparent) assumption that this phenomenon is physically caused is more
    absurd than my belief that it is caused by God.

>	You also have a vested interest in *believing* 1-3 because it goes
> along with your world view; this is just fine by me, but don't expect to
> convince the rest of us (i.e. anyone who does not share your view of the
> way things work around here) by merely pointing out that "speaking in
> tongues" works in your world view.  As I thought I pointed out, the standard
> of proof is relative.

Speaking in tongues happens.  That's a fact, regardless of the world view
with which you interpret it.  Your world view states that those who believe
as I do are lying, as far as I can tell.  (It could be claiming that we
don't know we're lying; but then how do you know you're not?  No double
standards here.)

The last sentence is the real key.  Your standard of proof is limited, being
relative *only* to the physically perceptible world.  When we start talking
about God, things don't always work according to humanity's standards of
proof or logic.  (Both Testaments are full of examples.)

The lunch crew is about to leave; I'll finish this response later.

-- 
-- Jeff Sargent
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Clearing /tmp