Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site ptsfa.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!bonnie!akgua!sdcsvax!sdcrdcf!hplabs!hpda!fortune!amdcad!amd!dual!ptsfa!bdp From: bdp@ptsfa.UUCP (Barbara Petersen) Newsgroups: net.politics,net.philosophy Subject: Re: Re: Comments on Libertarianism Message-ID: <394@ptsfa.UUCP> Date: Fri, 7-Dec-84 19:46:28 EST Article-I.D.: ptsfa.394 Posted: Fri Dec 7 19:46:28 1984 Date-Received: Mon, 10-Dec-84 02:12:33 EST Distribution: net Organization: Pacific Bell, San Francisco Lines: 78 Xref: watmath net.politics:6202 net.philosophy:1285 [Actually from J. Bashinski] > From: baba@flairvax.UUCP (Baba ROM DOS) > > > A key point, however, is that individuals interact, not with society > >as a whole, but with other individuals. They may interact with many > >large numbers of others, even with enormous organized groups- but they > >never interact with the whole. If I incur a debt to every other person > >alive, one may rightfully say that I owe everyone something, but not > >that I owe SOCIETY anything... > > > > ...People do not interact with the aggregate that forms society. > > How then can they owe it a debt? Even more importantly, if they do > > owe it a debt, how can government claim payment of that debt in > > the name of the whole? > > J. Bashinski > > ...ucbvax!bashinsk%ucbcory > > Wow! What a neat trick! Let me try a different application. PG&E has had > the audacity to present me with a bill for my utilities last month. Now, it > may be true that I owe a debt to *some* PG&E employees, those who actually had > a hand in delivering gas and electricity to me, and to *some* PG&E shareholders, > those who actually paid for the resources that were used on my behalf, but I > owe *nothing* to the aggregate of PG&E! Even more importantly, if I *do* owe > it a debt, how can the collections department claim payment of that debt in the > name of the whole? This is going to save me hundreds of dollars a year! > > Thanks, > Baba > > ---------- There's an obvious difference between the case of PG&E and that of society as a whole: when you ordered your gas and electric services, you ordered them from an aggregate- the Pacific Gas and Electric Company. The person to whom you gave the order was acting as the agent of that aggregate. You agreed to purchase utilities FROM THE AGGREGATE. The employees who actually provided the services did so as AGENTS of that aggregate, under their own contracts with it. The collections department is acting as the agent of the aggregate in demanding payment. PG&E stockholders are even further removed from the picture; the aggregate is THEIR agent. On the other hand, when I go to the local grocery to buy food, which undeniably could not have been produced without the existence of human cooperation, and therefore of society, I do NOT buy that food from society, but from the grocer. If I buy the food on credit, I incur a debt to the grocer, not to society. In fact, the only way I could incur a debt to SOCIETY would be to interact directly with it or with its duly appointed agent. It is obviously impossible for me to interact directly with society in the aggregate; therefore I would have to interact with an agent. WHO IS THAT AGENT? In the case of PG&E, a process for appointing an agent can be exhibited; when the stockholders brought the corporation into being, they agreed on how its business was to be conducted. By purchasing stock in the corporation, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM agreed to be bound by its charter. In the case of society, no such process can be exhibited. Certainly when I helped to bring society into being by trading with the corner grocer, I did not implicitly agree to a method for appointing agents to collect debts due that society. Even if an agent for society (say, for the sake of argument, the government) could be found, that agent could have no claim on me, either in the name of society or in its own name; I have incurred no debt to society by trading with the grocer, and I have certainly not incurred any debt to the government. I suggest you save the money for legal defense; you'll need it. J. Bashinski ...!ucbvax!bashinsk%ucbcory Please send mail to this account rather than to the posting account