Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/5/84; site tove.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!bonnie!akgua!sdcsvax!sdcrdcf!hplabs!hao!seismo!umcp-cs!tove!liz From: liz@tove.UUCP (Liz Allen) Newsgroups: net.abortion Subject: Re: An abortion story Message-ID: <46@tove.UUCP> Date: Wed, 28-Nov-84 00:21:03 EST Article-I.D.: tove.46 Posted: Wed Nov 28 00:21:03 1984 Date-Received: Fri, 30-Nov-84 07:44:54 EST References: <44@tove.UUCP> <1092@ut-ngp.UUCP> Reply-To: liz@tove.UUCP (Liz Allen) Organization: U of Maryland, Laboratory for Parallel Computation, C.P., MD Lines: 131 In article <1092@ut-ngp.UUCP> kjm@ut-ngp.UUCP (Ken Montgomery) writes: >The degree of development of the child is irrelevant. It probably is irrelevant to you, but the humanity of the unborn child is an important issue for many and one way to measure that is by how well formed it is. I have talked to women considering getting an abortion to whom this fact was both relevant and suprising -- our media has not been very fair in presenting this side of the issue. Women considering whether or not to get an abortion usually speak about whether or not they "will have a baby". They don't seem to realize that they already have one... > Why does an >unborn child (or any child) have the right to have its life supported >by its mother? Why does it even have the right to remain inside her >body against her will? By what principle? Why is this principle valid? Its right to remain in the mother's body against the mother's will is dependant on whether or not its life is valued more than mother's inconvenience to carry the baby to term. >> = Liz Allen >>2. The child is animated -- he doesn't just sleep unaware of >>anything but seems quite active. > >So what? It is relevant if you are trying to determine the humanity of the child. >>3. The child is aware of the attack -- he moves away from the >>instrument and as far away as possible. > >Or was he merely pushed away by it? No, the amnionic sac broke as soon as the instrument made contact with it. >>4. The child reacts to pain and seems aware of his death -- the >>silent scream... > >Cats also react to pain. However, the evidence given in no way shows >that the child "seems aware of his death". How can you tell what is >going on in the child's brain, such of it as there is at 10 weeks? That's why I said "seems". Though I think if you saw an adult react the same way, you'd think that they were aware of their death... I would also like to point out that here you do think the development of the child's brain is relevant and the actions of the child throughout the narrative would indicate a fairly high amount of brain activity (relative to the typical picture of next to none which is argued by the pro-choice side). >>I didn't post this to be gross or emotional -- even though this >>narrative is both these things. I posted it because if there was >>a window to the womb, abortion would be as unthinkable as murder. > >Why would abortion necessarily be unthinkable? I don't see any >causal link here. If it causes you to grant a high degree of humanity to the unborn and if you value humanity, then abortion does become unthinkable. >>I think it says a lot (negative) about our society that at a time >>in which we know so much more about fetal development than ever >>before, we still don't consider abortion unequivocally wrong... > >Why does society even have a role in the decision? Because if society decides it has a vested interest in its unborn (as it has decided for the born), then it may decide that that the unborn's life is more important than the woman's resultant inconvenience and make abortion illegal. >Tell me, Ms. Allen, are you willing to carry any and all children >that you might conceive? Yes, I am willing to carry any and all children I might conceive. > Either way, why do you think you have >the right to force other women to carry unwanted children? I'm not sure that I have the right, but I do believe society does. I don't mean that society doesn't have any responsibilities towards the woman, but I do believe it has a responsibility to protect the life of the unborn. The reasons a woman may want to get an abortion are many and varied. From the women I've talked to, most would rather carry the baby to term (given that they are now pregnant) or would definitely carry to term if the pregnancy had occurred at some other more convenient time. However, they find some of the circumstances of their life such that carrying to full term seems too hard. I think that our society would be much better off helping the women solve their problems and carry the baby than to provide the "easy" solution of abortion. I also think that option of adoption is rejected too quickly. I know that it is difficult to give up a baby for adoption, but in the long run it could well be a better solution both for the woman and the child in the cases where the woman knows she is not ready to take on the responsibility of raising a child. Providing alternatives to abortion requires more commitment and more love, but isn't it worth it? (I know, I know, this is an emotional appeal... but isn't it better to support life than to kill it???) Some of you who weren't on the net way back before net.abortion was even created won't know how it is I know as much as I do about why women consider abortion, so I'll explain that. I worked in a crisis pregnancy center near my home (in the Maryland suburbs of Washington DC) running pregnancy tests and counseling women for about a year and a half. During that time, I talked to a lot of women who were considering getting an abortion -- their reasons and their situations. Gerald Owens is right, by the way, in saying that the pro-life movement is waking up to providing help to women in crisis due to pregnancy. I work on a coalition for Pregnancy Assistance which will be placing women in the private homes of people willing to open their homes in order to help a woman. This is very important to me because merely telling a woman that she should not get an abortion is *not* enough! -- -Liz Allen Univ of Maryland, College Park MD Usenet: ...!seismo!umcp-cs!liz Arpanet: liz@tove (or liz@maryland) "This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all" -- 1 John 1:5