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From: holt@convex.UUCP
Newsgroups: net.women
Subject: Re: Only a few nuts rape?
Message-ID: <45000011@convex.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 10-Dec-84 12:48:00 EST
Article-I.D.: convex.45000011
Posted: Mon Dec 10 12:48:00 1984
Date-Received: Wed, 12-Dec-84 03:45:30 EST
References: <10011@watmath.UUCP>
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Nf-ID: #R:watmath:-1001100:convex:45000011:000:3278
Nf-From: convex!holt    Dec 10 11:48:00 1984

Ahem, let me clear the air a bit here...
from Ed Hall >
> Violence, my friend, is still violence, no matter what the reason why.

Agreed.

> Anyone who rapes *does* want to ``hurt another human being''!  Would
> my denying I want to hurt you make my pushing a knife into your chest
> any less of a crime?  Would it make my knifing you non-violent?  How
> insane would I actually have to be to ``not want to hurt another human
> being'' and still knife you?  Yet you seem to feel that the male attitude
> you talk about is simply misguided.

I was discussing motivation.  My point was that the motivation for rape
can be sexual in nature.  I don't think that motivation affects the
seriousness of this crime.  Rather, by trying to understand motivations
behind rape, we can work on decreasing its occurance.  I do feel that a 
male attitude which condones rape is misguided.  Don't you?  I don't
believe that the primary goal of all rapists is to hurt other human
beings.

> But rape doesn't cause physical injury the way knifing does, you say.
> That's not necessarily true, even when you restrict yourself to physical
> injuries.  But the emotional injury from rape can be absolutely life-
> shattering, with psychological wounds that never heal.

I didn't say anything about "knifing", and whether rape causes physical
injury.  I would suppose that the vast majority of rapes do cause physical
injury, no matter what the motivation of the rapist.  Rape is bad news.  I
would like for it to vanish from existance.  I know for a fact that rape
can cause psychological wounds.  I won't go into detail on that account.

> I'll admit that sex is a part of rape, as you claim it is.  But I think
> there is a key facet you are ignoring: the rapist is SEXUALLY AROUSED
> BY VIOLENCE.  He isn't just a guy who got a bit too horny and let things
> get out of control.  If he can't think of any non-violent ways of
> relieving sexual tension, even alone, then maybe he IS out of his mind.
> As it stands, the rapist is sick, but in a society where his sickness is
> considered somehow ``normal''.

Are you saying that a "guy who got a bit too horny and let things get out
of control" is not a rapist if he forces sex on another person?????
My point was that SOME rapists are motivated by sexual desire.  I believe that
this class of rapists is the easiest to eliminate, through better education
and a more enlightened socialization process.  We need to learn to treat other
humans with respect.

> I think you have a bit of insight into the problem: having ``males of
> the world...understand that woman are people'' certainly would reduce
> rape as well as injustices of all kind.  A first step is eliminating
> the mythology about rape, letting it be seen for the violence it is.
> 
> 		-Ed Hall
> 		decvax!randvax!edhall

Yes, that's my point.  Let's educate people, and try and change our
socialization process so that men and women are considered equal.  People
should not want to force their will on other people.  What Sophie's
original posting said to me was that there are still lots of men out there
who don't believe this.  As a famous person once said

"there's still a lot to be done".

				Dave Holt
				Convex Computer Corp.
				{allegra,ihnp4,uiucdcs,ctvax}!convex!holt