Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site watdcsu.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!watdcsu!dmcanzi From: dmcanzi@watdcsu.UUCP (David Canzi) Newsgroups: net.religion,net.flame Subject: Re: Kulawiec on Sargent on speaking in tongues Message-ID: <725@watdcsu.UUCP> Date: Sat, 1-Dec-84 04:53:30 EST Article-I.D.: watdcsu.725 Posted: Sat Dec 1 04:53:30 1984 Date-Received: Sun, 2-Dec-84 03:14:59 EST References: <231@pyuxd.UUCP> <1469@pucc-h>, <184@stat-l> <1489@pucc-h>, <191@stat-l> <1503@pucc-h>, <198@stat-l> Organization: U of Waterloo, Ontario Lines: 38 > Jeff Sargent replying to Rich Kulawiec: >Speaking in tongues happens. That's a fact, regardless of the world view >with which you interpret it. Somebody may have asked you these questions before, but if so I missed it: When you speak in tongues, are you just babbling meaninglessly, or are you speaking some real language? If you are babbling, what does it prove? If you claim to be speaking some actual language, has somebody who knows that language ever heard you speaking it and been able to understand it? > Your world view states that those who believe >as I do are lying, as far as I can tell. (It could be claiming that we >don't know we're lying; but then how do you know you're not? No double >standards here.)Look, there's this really simple idea, of being *mistaken*, and there's this other simple idea, *lying*. I'll try to explain the difference for you, in simple words, so you can understand. If you are saying something that is false, and you believe what you are saying, then you are *mistaken*. On the other hand, if you say something that you believe is false, then you are *lying*. You will notice, I hope, that if you are mistaken you can say something false without lying. Now, Rich has been saying that some of the things you *believe* are wrong. This means he doesn't think you are lying. Now, what can you possibly mean by the phrase "we don't know we're lying", above? You have to believe that what you are saying is false, in order to be lying. You can't lie without knowing that you are lying. Can you say "absurd"? I knew you could. Most normal people can understand the distinction between being mistaken and lying by about the age of 5. Christianoids, it seems, take a bit longer. David Canzi