Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 8/23/84; site ucbcad.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!bonnie!akgua!sdcsvax!dcdwest!ittvax!decvax!ucbvax!ucbcad!faustus From: faustus@ucbcad.UUCP Newsgroups: net.politics Subject: Re: Re: Re: Libertarianism Message-ID: <2834@ucbcad.UUCP> Date: Sat, 1-Dec-84 02:09:50 EST Article-I.D.: ucbcad.2834 Posted: Sat Dec 1 02:09:50 1984 Date-Received: Tue, 4-Dec-84 06:10:30 EST References: <1829@inmet.UUCP> <2812@ucbcad.UUCP> <2815@ucbcad.UUCP> <1597@Cascade.ARPA> Organization: UC Berkeley CAD Group, Berkeley, CA Lines: 50 > >> The mentality behind > >> it -- that property derives its legitimacy from one's compact with the > >> state -- was their target. > > From where does it derive its legitimacy then? Remember, there are NO rights > > in a state of nature, as you can see by looking at animal conceptions of > > rights. > > "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are endowed by > their creator certain unalienable rights ..." > > The Declaration of Independence Maybe the writers of the Declaration of Independence held them to be self-evident, but I don't. In the 18th century most philosophy, including political philisophy, was more inclined than now towards naturalism, in the sense that it assumed that all sorts of things like morals and rights existed in the world. I think that this notion dioesn't make sense -- we DEFINE morals and rights ourselves, and only in a society where there is agreement about them can they have any validity. > > ... anybody who is interested in both individual liberties > > and collective goods (like education) will take a long look at what > > he is considering eliminating from government. > > Why is education a collective good? The centralized control of distribution > of knowledge is a gigantic step away from freedom. Government control of > education is a step towards totalitarianism. Remember Newspeak and all that? I'm not talking about government control, I'm talking about the government providing free education to people who wouldn't get it otherwise. The sort of mind control you are talking about doesn't go on in public schools, and the sort of indoctrination that does occur (pledging allegance to the flag, etc) is definitely preferable to having a lot of poor, uneducated, illiterate people around. Better from the standpoint of "the good of society", that is, and certainly better from the educated individual's standpoint. > This view of education isn't only philosophical; it's practical, too. Has > the quality of public education in this country risen in recent years? NO! > Has its cost (per student, even after inflation (which is the government's > fault, by the way)) gone up? YES! I shall refrain from reiterating how a > private system could education EVERYONE better than a public system. Not exactly everyone, just those who could pay for it. You have to take a careful look at what you are advocating -- if public education were done away with, illiteracy would certainly increase dramatically, and centuries of progress in social welfare would be lost. Wayne