Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site watdcsu.UUCP
Path: utzoo!watmath!watdcsu!dmcanzi
From: dmcanzi@watdcsu.UUCP (David Canzi)
Newsgroups: net.religion,net.flame
Subject: Re: Kulawiec on Sargent on speaking in tongues
Message-ID: <725@watdcsu.UUCP>
Date: Sat, 1-Dec-84 04:53:30 EST
Article-I.D.: watdcsu.725
Posted: Sat Dec  1 04:53:30 1984
Date-Received: Sun, 2-Dec-84 03:14:59 EST
References: <231@pyuxd.UUCP> <1469@pucc-h>, <184@stat-l> <1489@pucc-h>, <191@stat-l> <1503@pucc-h>, <198@stat-l>
Organization: U of Waterloo, Ontario
Lines: 38

> Jeff Sargent replying to Rich Kulawiec:

>Speaking in tongues happens.  That's a fact, regardless of the world view
>with which you interpret it.

Somebody may have asked you these questions before, but if so I missed it:
When you speak in tongues, are you just babbling meaninglessly, or are you
speaking some real language?  If you are babbling, what does it prove?  If
you claim to be speaking some actual language, has somebody who knows that
language ever heard you speaking it and been able to understand it?

>                              Your world view states that those who believe
>as I do are lying, as far as I can tell.  (It could be claiming that we
>don't know we're lying; but then how do you know you're not?  No double
>standards here.)

	

Look, there's this really simple idea, of being *mistaken*, and there's
this other simple idea, *lying*.  I'll try to explain the difference for
you, in simple words, so you can understand.  If you are saying something
that is false, and you believe what you are saying, then you are *mistaken*.
On the other hand, if you say something that you believe is false, then you
are *lying*.  You will notice, I hope, that if you are mistaken you can
say something false without lying.  Now, Rich has been saying that some of
the things you *believe* are wrong.  This means he doesn't think you are lying.

Now, what can you possibly mean by the phrase "we don't know we're lying",
above? You have to believe that what you are saying is false, in order to
be lying.  You can't lie without knowing that you are lying.  Can you say
"absurd"?  I knew you could.

	

Most normal people can understand the distinction between being mistaken
and lying by about the age of 5.  Christianoids, it seems, take a bit longer.

	David Canzi