Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site cmu-cs-cad.ARPA Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!bonnie!akgua!mcnc!philabs!cmcl2!seismo!rochester!cmu-cs-pt!cmu-cs-cad!mjc From: mjc@cmu-cs-cad.ARPA (Monica Cellio) Newsgroups: net.abortion Subject: Re*2: Good Fallout Message-ID: <202@cmu-cs-cad.ARPA> Date: Fri, 7-Dec-84 00:36:27 EST Article-I.D.: cmu-cs-c.202 Posted: Fri Dec 7 00:36:27 1984 Date-Received: Mon, 10-Dec-84 01:48:19 EST Organization: Carnegie-Mellon University, CS/RI Lines: 39 >From: tdn@cmu-cs-spice.ARPA (Thomas Newton) > >Unless the woman was raped, a fetus which is considered to be a "human being" >(we can definitely say that this happens sometime >= conception and <= birth) >has a legitimate claim on BOTH of its natural parents which far outweighs any >inconvenience on their parts. Birth control methods are KNOWN to be fallable, >so you can't say that a fetus is "trespassing" if the woman consented to sex. > If I install a burglar alarm system in my house which is almost foolproof (nothing stops a really determined burglar) and someone breaks in despite all my precautions, do I not have a right to use any reasonable means available to get him to leave? (Yes, I should start with non-lethal methods if I can and only kill him in self defense, but don't I have a right to use lethal force if I'm in danger?) I have argued in a previous post that a trespassing fetus (which is not by definition a "human being") causes potential and/or real harm to the mother. Also, only the mother is being abused, though the father was obviously involved. If you're going to have laws requiring women to lose big in favor of a trespasser of dubious status, make sure the men involved lose as much or don't discriminate against women to begin with. (Enforcement is the problem of the folks proposing the law.) >If you kill a three-year-old child who is trespassing in your back yard, I >suspect that the courts will not only reject your claim of "self-protection" >but will find you guilty of premeditated murder. Especially if you had set >out soda pop, cookies, etc. in your back yard just before the kid came over >(whether or not you closed the gate and put up a barbed wire fence). If, however, this three-year-old shows up and demands food, shelter, and lots of tender loving care, don't I have the right to turn him away, even if this means he might not find food, etc. anywhere else? Maybe heartless, maybe justified, but not immoral. -Dragon -- UUCP: ...seismo!ut-sally!ut-ngp!lll-crg!dragon ARPA: monica.cellio@cmu-cs-cad or dragon@lll-crg