Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site voder.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!cbosgd!ihnp4!zehntel!dual!amd!pesnta!hplabs!nsc!voder!kathy From: kathy@voder.UUCP (Kathy Hale) Newsgroups: net.taxes Subject: Re: VAT Message-ID: <538@voder.UUCP> Date: Fri, 30-Nov-84 13:36:49 EST Article-I.D.: voder.538 Posted: Fri Nov 30 13:36:49 1984 Date-Received: Tue, 4-Dec-84 04:40:46 EST References: <700@oliven.UUCP> Organization: National Semiconductor, Santa Clara Lines: 253 > [] > GIVEN: 1 Our income tax system stinks. (other than CPA' & IRS > agents NO one has a good word to say about it ) > GIVEN: 2 The shoe store sells shoes > GIVEN: 3 Congress sells loopholes (the current tax mess IS the > aggregate of all the past loop-holes congress has sold) > GIVEN: 4 No social institution, least of all the US congress ever > voluntarily gives up political power. > GIVEN: 5 People who babble on about congress passing a 'flat rate > income tax' are hoplessly naive. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Anyone can point out the obvious, what is the answer? > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A grass-roots movement to pass a constitutional amendment that > will make all forms of income tax illegal - and replace it dollar for > dollar with a Value Added Tax (VAT). > PROVISIONS: > 1 It is illegal for any state, federal or local government in > the US to tax corporate or individual income in any way. > 2 The VAT maximum total percentage tax is set by a referendum > constitutional amendment and can ONLY be changed by the same process. > This total percentage is the total of all state , federal & local VAT's . > This will have the effect of a NATIONAL prop. 13 > 3 Loophole no.1 staple food items are exempt. (It is legally impossible > to 'add value to' food. > 4 Loophole no.2 items for export are exempt. US VAT is only applied > to items sold in the US. > 5 THERE ARE NO OTHER LOOPHOLES. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > It is essential that this be done as a constitutional amendment, > effectively bypassing the congress. Otherwise the entire exercise will > become counter productive. They will KEEP income tax AND add the VAT ! > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ->QUESTION: Isn't VAT just a sales tax? > ANSWER: NO. With a 10% sales tax $2.00 pair of socks cost $2.20 > With VAT a $2.00 pair of socks costs $2.00 > ADVANTAGES TO: > Left of center stateists. VAT retains the one redeeming feature > of personal income tax withholding , it is invisible to the > user. (people are much more enthusiasm about redistribution > of wealth if they don't realize it is THEIR wealth that is > being reassigned.) > Liberterians Anything is better than the current system. > Right of center stateists. A taxpayers revolt is brewing , > there is the ever present danger that the peasants will > turn to the easy answers of socialism if given a chance. > Lock in the status quo with a VAT. > > ->QUESTION: So who pays the tax? > ANSWER: Business (non export or non food) If VAT is 10% and a > business increases the value of its product by $2.00 > then it must send the government 20 cents. > ADVANTAGES TO: > Left of center stateists. It will appear to the people that > they pay nothing, and the greedy capitalists get stuck. > Liberterians Those of you who own businesses know that you > send checks to the government all of the time. Nothing > changes. > Right of center stateists. Businessmen will love it. They > get to pass the cost of the VAT directly on to the consumer. > Exports are indirectly subsidized, allowing them to compete > unfairly in the export markets. > > ->QUESTION: Who decides that a business has added value and how much? > ANSWER: The same people you are now dealing with at the IRS . > We just change the name of IRS to something else. VAS?? > ADVANTAGES TO: > Left of center stateists. Democrats have been changing the names of > bankrupt social programs for years. Make > it appear that IRS is being abolished. > Reassure IRS agents , CPA's etc. that they > have job security with the new VAT bureau. > (accept lots of money from their PACs) > Liberterians Gradualism is the buzz word , our time will come later. see > below for advantages. > Right of center stateists. This is business as usual. > > ->QUESTION: Who decides what the maximum amount VAT will be? > ANSWER: The people do , with a constitutional amendment. > If it is decided that a fair flat rate tax rate is > 18% then the MAX VAT total tax rate will be 18% > (for example a 100% total VAT would double the cost > of items as seen by the consumer) > ADVANTAGES TO: > Left of center stateists. Fairness, hit 'm with fairness , ALL > business appear to pay the same VAT. > Liberterians The government is a gigantic rabid dog that is running > loose and growing in size and ferocity. > A maximum tax rate cast in granite,(by a constitutional > amendment) will fix for all time, the length of the leash > that this dog will be shackled to. > Right of center stateists. Actually they don't , the TOTAL is > fixed by law , what share of the total > any given business will pay is subject > to negotiation.(Endless opportunity for > campaign contributions.) > > ->QUESTION: You mean I get to keep 100% of my income? > ANSWER: YES. > ADVANTAGES TO: > Left of center stateists. You can't win them all. But cheer up, > people will sooner or later get tired > of hiding their money in banks and buy > something with it. At that point we can > redistribute their wealth. > Liberterians With big brother out of the income business ,we can achieve > a great measure of personal and financial privacy. There > would be no barriers to passing Swiss style Banking security > laws. > Right of center stateists. Is there an individual or a business man > that won't jump for joy when you tell them > that you have IRS off their back once and > for all. Bankers will give massive campaign > contributions for Banking security laws. > (and a chance to compete for the billions > the Swiss have hidden away) > > ->QUESTION: Is VAT fair? > ANSWER: Yes. > ADVANTAGES TO: > Left of center stateists. Everyone pays the same VAT by purchasing > goods in the USA. Everyone pays the same > rate NO exceptions. It is the ultimate > flat rate tax. It is inherently fair. > Liberterians This is better than dealing with the IRS. Lets not oppose > it. With time people will see the advantage of having the > dangerous dog of government on a leash. Then we can begin > pointing out that an even shorter leash will be even better. > Right of center stateists. The VAT cost is hidden in the price of each > item, the effect is the same as inflation. > If the average take home pay is increased > by the same amount as the cost of living > increase, no change in average standard > of living will result. No public outcry. > > ->QUESTION: Can the VAT be evaded? > ANSWER: By individuals, No. (it would be necessary > to smuggle foreign goods to avoid paying > the hidden VAT included in the cost of > all goods for sale in the US) > ADVANTAGES TO: > Left of center stateists. This is all pervasive big brotherism it > will make socialists everywhere feel good > to have thought of a tax that can't be > evaded. > Liberterians Give what is Ceasar's unto Caesar. > Right of center stateists. Conservatives are going nuts trying to stop > the drug industry. There are coke dealers > driving around in Mercedes 450's who don't > pay a dime of tax. It will make the > conservatives feel good to realize they have > thought of a way to tax the multi billion > dollar drug industry. > > ->QUESTION: Will anyone pay VAT who does not now pay tax? > ANSWER: Yes. The entire underground economy will > be taxed at the same rate as everyone else. > ADVANTAGES TO: > Left of center stateists. Think of all that money just waiting to be > redistribute. > Liberterians The government will soon be unable to get along without this > 'new' money. Legalization is only possible after a wide spread > social acceptance of the 'necessity' of this kind of business. > Right of center stateists. Think of all that money just waiting to be > taxed. > > ->QUESTION: But will VAT feed the poor? > ANSWER: Yes. > ADVANTAGES TO: > Left of center stateists. Liberals will claim they were for it all > along. By exempting staple foods from > VAT , food will be held at an artificially > low price. The poor will be able to > feed themselves with much less difficulty. > Liberterians As Liberterians we can argue: Look at what a good deal food > is. If we have our way (eliminate government) all goods > will then become as cheap as food is now. > Right of center stateists. A good cheap way to feed the poor is good > politics.(they remain docile and apolitical) > > ->QUESTION: Will VAT increase exports (help deal with > the massive trade imbalance)? > ANSWER: Yes. > ADVANTAGES TO: > Left of center stateists. Liberals have long been crying about foreign > 'dumping' and crying for protectionist > measures. The 'dumping' is not the result > of foreign philanthropy , but rather the > result of foreign VAT's that exempt exported > goods. (a fact that has been kept from > most americans). Liberals will label > the VAT a protectionist measure that gives > 'those foreign capitalists' a dose of their > own medicine. > Liberterians Increased exports are a good thing. > Right of center stateists. American export business is hard hit by > the overvalued dollar. Republicans will > claim they support the VAT because it > is not protectionism but rather an > economic 'incentive' to export. > > ->QUESTION: Will VAT encourage savings and investments > and entrepreneurism? > ANSWER: Yes. > ADVANTAGES TO: > Left of center stateists. None. All of the above mentioned activities > are terrible and must be discouraged. > We will however support the > measure because of its other excellent > socialist features. > Liberterians 100% of your income is yours reguardless of its source. > Very liberterian. Interest, dividends ,capital gains ... > all yours, keep it all. Reinvest to your hearts content > this is capitalism for everyone. > Right of center stateists. People will quit chasing bizarre 'tax free' > investments and tax shelters and simply > put the money where it earns the best return > Reinvesting to earn more 'income' won't > be penalized. Large pools of investment > money will build up and drive interest rates > down. (conservatives claim to believe in suply > and demand). Lower interest rates are > good for General Motors and the Republican > party. > > ->QUESTION: Will the rich pay their fair share? > ANSWER: Yes. > ADVANTAGES TO: > Left of center stateists. The question was really 'how can we > make the rich pay more than I do'? > By having a rich life style (conspicuous > consumption) the wealthy will pay > much more in VAT as the result of > having bought more. > Liberterians This is a good start , in time we can work for > making all tax voluntary. > Right of center stateists. The wealthy enjoy being able to display > their ability to afford conspicuous > consumption. Nothing really changes. > Besides capital gains on investments > are now FREE of tax. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > Dan Wootan Dan, we don't need some new economic tax scheme or scheme scheme. We heed to return to sound money, sound government, and sound law, to wit: the Constitution. We had a new scheme in 1913 and 1914. *** REPLACE THIS LINE WITH YOUR MESSAGE ***