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From: sunny@sun.uucp (Sunny Kirsten)
Newsgroups: net.singles
Subject: Re: The end of it
Message-ID: <1839@sun.uucp>
Date: Tue, 4-Dec-84 03:03:27 EST
Article-I.D.: sun.1839
Posted: Tue Dec  4 03:03:27 1984
Date-Received: Wed, 5-Dec-84 01:02:49 EST
References: <127@decwrl.UUCP>
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Lines: 130

Q:	How many shrinks does it take to change a light bulb?

A:	Only one, but the light bulb has to really want to change.

>if you aren't ----{ john williams }---- skip to "HERE'S THE BEEF"
> 	I have a friend at work who likes to use a particular 
> quote on occasion. I will present it to you now. The more you 
> stir, the more it stinks. I have been overwhelmed by the activity 
> that surrounds this newsgroup. Sunny once asked me whether or not 
> this was a psyche experiment. I'm afraid it's a case of psyche 
> overkill.
	Why drag me into this?  Why mis-quote me out of context?
	I asked you in PRIVATE mail whether YOUR postings were a
psyche experiment you were conducting {against,about,with,re:}
net.singles.  That should have had nothing to do with the subject
at hand.  You have been really outstanding at posting to the net
things which were directed to you privately, so much so, that I
hesitate to send you anything I don't want to see posted, so I hope
net.people will excuse this violation of the principle:
Praise publicly, criticize privately.

HERE'S THE BEEF:

> I think that alot of psychological crap has been 
> stuffed down Jeff's throat, that the motivation was not 
> necessarily in his best interest.

	Jeff, too, is capable of unsubscribing to net.singles.
	Nobody is stuffing anything down his throat.

> ...Small wonder he is unwilling to 
> subject himself further into any sort of therapy. The primary 
> focus of therapy is to provide an environment where the client is 
> able to gain some form of emotional experience with minimal risk.
> I think that all the manure people have been feeding him is only 
> serving to reinforce a foundational belief that psychology is 
> some kind of fucking game, rather than a practice of science. I 
> think the best possible thing to do would be for all those 
> involved to stay away from Jeff, until such time as you find 
> yourself more in agreement. If he indeed has a problem, and I am 
> not as of yet convinced, he will seek help himself.
> ...What you 
> are doing, whether you realize it or not, is saying that he needs 
> some kind of help because he has an opinion that is inconsistent 
> with your own.

	As I recall it, Jeff started getting advice to seek therapy
after several attempts of several net.singles subscribers to stop
him from trying to ram religion down the throats of net.singles readers.
I also recall a great deal of tolerance applied to him.  It's not that
his opinion was inconsistent, it's that it had little place in net.singles.
I recall him being asked to move to net.religion.  Now I'll be the first
to admit my memory is far from perfect, and I'd be glad to see corrections.
heck, I may even be remembering the wrong person!  I'm sure I'll get flamed,
if so.  If not...

> Something I think Jeff should know, is that if he wishes 
> emotional counseling, with people more tolerant, he should 
> remember that psychological therapists are PROFESSIONALS. They 
> are very careful not to submit their clients to anything they 
> don't want. Their success depends on your success. There is kind 
> of a falsehood that manifests itself with many people, that is 
> that a therapist performs some kind of `` surgery '' to your 
> mind. On the contrary, it is the amateurs that slice up all sorts 
> of things that are better off left alone. A professional 
> therapist is not there as a doctor as much as he's there as a 
> teacher, to teach you about yourself. To give you a little 
> starting experience in identifying your emotions. He is not there 
> to change you in any way. He will give you the tools you need to 
> work on your own problems. And he has the experience to do so.
> He will try to make sure your mind comes through intact.
> ...A really good 
> therapist makes the session fun. And that's what it should be.

Ummm, it may have it's fun moments, but mostly it's work.  And if you
expect to accomplish anything from that work, it's probably going to
be painful also, as you find yourself looking at aspects of yourself
you'd rather believe aren't.

> It is primarily an educational experience, no one puts you under a 
> fucking microscope. The relationships you have should be 
> recognized as constructive or destructive. Only you know enough 
> to decide. Jeff needs amateur counseling like another hole in the 
> head.

amateur counselling may be better than no counselling.  One way of
looking at a shrink is this:  A shrink is merely a friend whom you
pay to remain neutral, and to have no vested interest in you being
any particular way, or (not) doing any particular thing.

> 	In any case, I see no reason to attack. From what I have 
> read in this newsgroup, without the supposed benefit of meeting 
> him personally, I see no malicious intent.

	As I recall, you joined this group *after* most of Jeff's
controversial articles had passed, and *after* he'd mellowed out a 
bit from being pounced on by the net.people.

> Perhaps it is to my 
> benefit in not knowing him that I can give an objective opinion.
> I only know what I have seen posted, and what I have received in 
> the mail, and think that this whole thing is getting blown way 
> out of proportion. Myself included.

	So, control yourself first.  Not that I shouldn't take the
same advice?

	I heartily recommend the book "The Road Less Travelled" by
M. Scott Peck, M.D., especially for anyone who thinks they've found
a rationalization why they don't belong in therapy.  You may not
need it, and you may not benefit from it (see opening Q,A), but you
can't have a valid reason to avoid it.  

	The process of therapy is a very personal one, and one which
requires an excellent working rapport with your therapist.  You could
go to the first therapist listed in the yellow pages and succeed.  You
could go to one recommended by a friend and have a worse time of it,
because you won't have the same relationship with your therapist that
your friend does.  There are also several flavors of therapists...
and unless you're trying to deal with an oedipus or electra complex,
I would recommend one who has some Jungian background, rather than only
Freudian.  Psychologists trained in the Eastern US schools tend to be
a bit more formal, distant, and a little more traditionally Freudian.
Then there are those who bring into their work entirely different
approaches... 	
				Sunny
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