Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site brl-tgr.ARPA
Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!cbosgd!ihnp4!zehntel!hplabs!hao!seismo!brl-tgr!jeffh
From: jeffh@brl-tgr.ARPA (Jeff Hanes )
Newsgroups: net.flame
Subject: Rebuttal to Canzi's Rebuttal
Message-ID: <6451@brl-tgr.ARPA>
Date: Fri, 7-Dec-84 08:27:04 EST
Article-I.D.: brl-tgr.6451
Posted: Fri Dec  7 08:27:04 1984
Date-Received: Mon, 10-Dec-84 01:39:48 EST
References: <1344@ihuxq.UUCP> <1515@pucc-h> <707@watdcsu.UUCP> <6220@brl-tgr.ARPA> <733@watdcsu.UUCP>
Reply-To: jeffh@brl-tgr.ARPA [ The Fantome Straynger ]
Organization: Ballistic Research Lab
Lines: 67
Summary: 

>> >	David Canzi
>>	Me
>	David again

Me again --
I admit it: I wrote in anger, without thinking clearly first.  Actually,
at that point in time, I was quite free from any pretense of an even
temper.  I do humbly apologize for personal insults, sleazy debate tac-
tics, etc.  I would start from a clean slate, but I don't want to look
for the original article.  Besides, the subject will probably come up
again, later.  Therefore, I will just mention a few points found in
your rebuttal to my flame.

>> >Believing falsehoods is not the same as believing lies, because not all
>> >falsehoods are lies.

This still seems like a strange statement to me.  After all, the listener
has no way of knowing whether an assertion is  a) true  b) unintended
falsehood or  c) deliberate lie.

>> Johnny, give this man a Doublespeak Award.
> (By the way, there is no doublespeak in my dictionary.
> Perhaps you meant doubletalk?)
I was refering to the Doublespeak Awards recently posted in net.jokes.

>> >  People *have* been known to make honest mistakes,
>> True.  You for instance (see above).
All right.  Me, for instance (see above). [ouch! that hurt]

>> >but I suppose this simple concept is beyond the intellectual grasp of the
>> >average christianoid.

I think that the average Christian has a very good grasp of that concept.
We make them all the time.  Anybody (Christian or otherwise) who claims
to be above making mistakes is truly a fool.

>> >  Believing lies is not the same as lying to oneself,
>> >if you have no way of knowing that you were told a lie.

Didn't I just make this point?  Are we secretly agreeing with each other?
Maybe I *will* go look at the original.

> The trouble with your truth is that the only evidence of it is
> somebody else's word.

Hmm.  I don't recall actually *saying* what I believe (not all Christians
believe alike, you know), but your assertion is wrong.  I have the evidence
of my own life to prove to me that my beliefs work.  I don't expect this
to convince you that they are true, although I hope you will at least
consider them as a possibility.  The only evidence of my truth is a
changed life.  Maybe you will meet such a person.  Sorry to be such a poor
example of Christianity in action.

> You do not appear to be a fool as much as you appear to be unusually free
> of the shackles of intellectual honesty.

This is a VERY strong accusation to make on the basis of one article,
especially when it contains only one statement of any semi-debatable
content (oh well, first impressions and all ... ).  I won't even bother
answering it directly.  Instead, I hope that this and other postings
will *show* that it is inaccurate.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  The  Fantome  Straynger  <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Second to the right,		UUCP:	{seismo,decvax,unc}!brl-bmd!jeffh
then straight on till morning.	ARPA:	
	-J.M. Barrie