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Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site gatech.UUCP
Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!gatech!spaf
From: spaf@gatech.UUCP (Gene Spafford)
Newsgroups: net.flame,net.news.group
Subject: Re: Duplication of The penalty of MindRape is NetDeath
Message-ID: <10574@gatech.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 29-Oct-84 01:31:41 EST
Article-I.D.: gatech.10574
Posted: Mon Oct 29 01:31:41 1984
Date-Received: Tue, 30-Oct-84 00:35:13 EST
References: <15137@lanl-a.UUCP>
Organization: The Clouds Project, School of ICS, Georgia Tech
Lines: 164
Xref: gatech net.flame:6083 net.news.group:1666

> Assuming that 70% of you found eating the dead cat to be reprehensible
> how do you feel about the punishment?  If it had been my posting that
> "Chuq" or R*** or D***** found reprehensible and they had complained
> to my management I could have been put on notice.  Is that true of
> yourselves also?

Nope, we can eat dead cats if we wish.  I happen to think that doing
so would be its own punishment.

> What happens to your life if someone from "somewhere else" calls your
> boss and complains that the things you've been saying on  Arpanet/
> Telnet/Bitnet/Usenet are obscene?

Well, I would hope that any intelligent, effective manager would try to
get copies of the postings involved and then make his/her own judgement
about the matter.  It shouldn't be any different from someone coming in
to the manager's office and complaining about the employee putting some
kind of disgusting posters up in the halls -- the manager should
investigate the charges, first.

If there were substance to the accusations, I would expect corrective
action to be taken.  If it were all rumor and hearsay, I would hope
that my boss would dismiss such charges.

> SIR... I was raised in a different world than you were, I have four
> kids ( twin 17 year old sons included ) and I'll bet that Your
> VERSION of OBSCENE is not mine!!!!

A different world?  I claim Vega -- what's yours? I'm sure my obscene
is different from yours  -- and probably would be even if I had four
kids.

> I didn't find the dead cat nearly as obscene as the discussion of
> whether we "should" have dropped the bomb on Nagasaki.  I haven't
> even heard any discussion of the puted use of "tactical Nuclear
> Weapons" in Campucia.  I'd find such a discussion very repulsive,
> but I wouldn't call someone's boss and complain.

I also don't consider "repulsive" synonymous with "obscene." There is a
difference.  There is also a difference between discussion and just
making noise to disturb others.

I would be rather upset if you had started talking about nuclear arms
in net.singles, unless it was related to how hard it might be to get a
date if one was radioactive.  (Hmmm, she gives me that certain
glow....)  If you had started such postings, I would have sent you
mail, I'm sure.  Postings about dead cats don't belong in net.singles,
unless:  a) you are a cat yourself, or b) you find yourself
attracted to demised felines.

> I find the lyrics to some of the songs my kids listen to very
> disturbing, but I still let them listen to them...

How enlightened of you....

> Note that the person who felt that he had to complain to someone
> else's boss about the obscene postings is now the "moderator"
> of one of the most volatile and previously interesting newsgroups.
> If I send him an article that he doesn't like, will he retaliate?

I doubt that Chuq would "retaliate."  He might send you an article
in return....  And "previously interesting"?  

I think you're missing some of the point, and a great deal of the
story.  The original postings by John Williams were not disturbing
because of the language, per se, but because he was purposely trying to
offend the readers of the group.  If the newsgroup had been net.flame
(or net.pets, perhaps), it might have been appropriate.  As it was, the
postings were inappropriate and rude.  It is disturbing to see trash
thrown into a "volatile and interesting newsgroup."

Chuq (and others) sent mail to Mr Williams, requesting either an
explanation or a change.  I've seen copies of the notes that a few
people sent.  They were not unusual or particularly hostile.  I've also
seen Mr. Williams' responses.  Those were quite vile.

Perhaps Chuq should have waited a while before talking to some people
at DEC about Mr. Williams.  As it was, he contacted some friends
who were NOT Mr. Williams' superiors, but who are long-time net
administrators and users.  They took the actions which followed
(whatever they may be).

Based on the letters I've seen, I don't think it was a case of
over-reacting.  Williams had his chance to at least respond politely to
the letters.  Knowing something of the people involved, I'm sure
they didn't just take Chuq at his word (although there is no reason
why they shouldn't -- Chuq appears pretty honest {I even entrusted
him with my MOTAS one evening}), but I bet they sought out the
indicated postings and made their own decisions.


> That's my opinion, this is sarcasm.
> 
> And Gene don't you really think that people would object to your
> cute little jokes, has anyone called your boss yet?  I'll bet
> his phone number is in one of the site reports in net.news somewhere.
> Lets start a round robin and see how many people we can get fired.

No one has registered a complaint about any of my jokes.  Yet.

I'm a PhD student here at Tech, and I don't have a boss, as such.  If
you look in the site listings, you'll find that I am the news
administrator for all of the Tech machines.  I also help out with some
of the other administration chores here.  They trust my judgement
around here, and I doubt you could convince them of much.  But, if you
want to complain about something I've posted, let me save you some
trouble:

	The system administrator for Gatech is Mark Johnson (gatech!mark)
	and his phone number is (404) 894-2746.

	The lab operations manager is Ed Coleman (gatech!ed) and his phone
	number is (404) 894-4465.

	If you really want to make a big deal of things, you can
	always call Lindsay Cleveland (akgua!glc) at (404) 447-3909.
	He's the administrator of our newsfeed -- akgua.  Maybe you
	can convince him to filter out everything I post.


> Just think where we'd be if we could get rid of reactionarys like
> Gene.

I've been called a lot of things, but reactionary is a new one on me.
Is it because you expected me to react to your posting?  Or am I just
another "flaming pig-dog reactionary imperialist Usenetter"?

Or is it because I know how to spell "reactionaries"?

> Please don't call my boss if you have problems with me, call me...

Collect?  Call you ... "irresponsible"?  "Fred"?


But seriously folk, the net is something to which anyone can post.
It's not a right, its a privilege granted by whomever maintains your
machine.  If you want to be a jerk, fine.  If you want to be a sage,
even better.  But no matter what you are, you need to take responsibility
for your postings.  Just as you can post anything you want, anyone
else on the net can mail to you or your boss.  I can even use the
real mail, if I wish.  That isn't being oppressive, that's just
exercising my right to free speech.

If you post a fresh version of vmunix to net.singles, you better
believe I'm going to complain.  Loudly.  Possibly by phone.  If you
drop your trash (dead cats included) into any group to which it is not
appropriate, I will complain.  First to you, and then to your boss if I
feel you're purposely trying to be a nuisance.  As a last resort, I'll
start complaining to the site administrators of your neighboring
machines.  If I'm a crank, I'll be ignored.  If I've got a valid point,
something will change.  That's what has helped to keep the net working
up to now.  We have a community and a community-defined set of standards.
Sociologists call them "mores," and they're what define appropriate
and inappropriate, obscene and proper.

Maybe I'm a reactionary because I believe in the weight of public
opinion and the collective ability to decide the content of our net?
If so, I'll continue to be one.

-- 
Off the Wall of Gene Spafford
The Clouds Project, School of ICS, Georgia Tech, Atlanta GA 30332
CSNet:	Spaf @ GATech		ARPA:	Spaf%GATech.CSNet @ CSNet-Relay.ARPA
uucp:	...!{akgua,allegra,amd,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo,ut-sally}!gatech!spaf