Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!bonnie!akgua!sdcsvax!sdcrdcf!hplabs!zehntel!ihnp4!drutx!houxe!hogpc!houxm!mhuxj!mhuxl!mhuxt!mhuxm!sftig!sftri!sfmag!eagle!ulysses!unc!mcnc!decvax!mit-athena!martillo From: martillo@mit-athena.UUCP Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish Subject: Re: Who is a Jew (Shame on [detractors of] Mr. Martillo!) Message-ID: <16@mit-athena.UUCP> Date: Thu, 11-Oct-84 01:02:05 EDT Article-I.D.: mit-athe.16 Posted: Thu Oct 11 01:02:05 1984 Date-Received: Wed, 10-Oct-84 05:18:19 EDT References: <1438@ittvax.UUCP>, <223@fisher.UUCP> <225@mit-athena.ARPA>, <253@fisher.UUCP> <255@mit-athena.ARPA>Re: Who is a Je Lines: 158 Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83 based; site houxm.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site mit-athena.ARPA Message-ID: <16@mit-athena.ARPA> Date: Fri, 5-Oct-84 01:02:05 EDT Date-Received: Fri, 5-Oct-84 22:39:44 EDT w (Shame on [detractors of] Mr. Martillo!) Organization: MIT, Project Athena, Cambridge, Ma. Lines: 149 > = David Rubin >> = Yirmiyahu ben David Anything Else = Yehoyaqim Martillo >The following is in response to an article by Yirmiyahu Ben-David. >>Exception must be taken to some overly simplistic views. To imagine >>that loyalties to the various stated entities are always in harmony is >>indeed most superficial and simplistic. Are the interests in American >>culture and Jewish culture always in harmony? >Nations have interests. Neighborhoods have interests. Communities have >interests. However, I don't see how a CULTURE can have an interest. I think Yirmiyahu ben David was simply careless in translating klal Yisrael which means the Jewish World. The Jewish Community has a culture. It is not merely a culture. In fact, as I understand some of the recent Teshubot from `Obadyah Yosef, a non-Jew who held David Rubin's view and claimed to wish to convert to Judaism could not validly convert to Judaism. > I >also do not see why any culture should be unavailable to anyone. If >you can only participate in one culture, then millions of liberal arts >majors have wasted their lives... There is a world of difference between participating in a culture and appreciating a culture. I appreciate Japanese culture and find it very attractive but as a Gaijin (non-Japanese) I could never truly participate in Japanese culture even if I went to live in Japan and succeeded in getting Japanese citizenship -- which is very hard. Historically, Jews have been excluded from tenured professorships in English literature because the current wisdom held that as oriental aliens Jews could neither truly participate or appreciate English literature. In fact, European Jews achieved incredible feats of assimilation in order to participate, but even had they not, they could have brought an especially new understanding of English literature because such Jewish scholars would have had a different perspective. >>Are the interests in >>American traditions always in harmony with Jewish traditions? >"Tradition" is a catch-all phrase, which just about covers everything. >It is also extremely imprecise, especially when discussing American >"tradition". If the Census asked each American to list the ten most >important aspects of American tradition, they'd probably get 180 >million different lists. Actually, from a European perspective there are some readily obvious American traditions which are inherently in conflict with Jewish traditions. Neither Yirmiyahu ben David nor David Rubin understand the distinction between official and civic religion but the USA has always had particluarly strong tradition of a civic religion which is a benign expression of Northern European Protestantism. This civic religion is in conflict with Jewish tradition. >>Are >>American interests always in harmony with Israel? >The implication here is that one cannot be a good Jew without >consistently supporting Israeli interests. I do not understand the logical transition. > However, as has been made >clear over the last few years, a majority of the Israeli political >body wishes to exercise national interests as every other state does >(something like wishing to have a King placed over them, like other >nations), and consequently Israel, like the U.S., often takes actions >which I consider to be misguided or immoral. I can be a good citizen in >the U.S. and still condemn my government's actions, and I can be a >good Jew and condemn some of Israel's actions. I am curious which actions of Israel David Rubin considers immoral. Most American Jewish critics of Israel consider Israeli actions immoral when the actions disturb Jewish assimilation. In such cases, condemnation of Israel is an expression of not being much of a Jew at all. This is the case for Noam Chomsky, Nat Hentoff, Philip Klutznik, Arnold J. Wolf, Leonard Fein, Arthur Hertzberg and many others. >A counter question, then: >Can I be a good Jew and accept Israel's policies unconditionally? >One final point: Jewish interests and Israeli interests may not >coincide all the time, either. Example: in this election, it may very >well be in Israeli interests to have friendly administration >reelected, and to increase the influence of the New Right (who are >strong supporters of Israel). However, Jewish interests may be that >the New Right be weakened (to prevent public action based on >peculiarly Christian principle), and thus to defeat Reagan. Jewish assimilationist are disturbed when the importance of religion is stressed. Actually, while I have a low opinion of Christianity in many of its aspects, some aspects of Christianity like some of Islam are praiseworthy. And making assimilating American Jews aware of the importance of religion may encourage them to alleviate their massive ignorance of their own religion. >>Certainly not. Like it >>or not, this country is becoming increasingly a Christian nation. Those >>who blend in and adapt just don't have such a keen awareness of the >>seriousness or scope of these problems. (I believe the other term for >>blending in and adapting is called assimilation.) >I have a keen awareness of being different. However, it does not >bother me in and of itself. In this country, one is free to be >different (that, by the way, would lead my list of things I consider >to be part of the American "tradition"). >The increasing "Christianity" of this nation is an illusion. >Fundamentalist Christians have become more vocal, not more numerous. >>Lest the reader try a simplistic reply again, please note that the >>questions listed are merely representative examples, and are in no way >>intended as an exhaustive listing of the myriad permutations of potential >>conflicts among the various interests vis-a-vis Israel, Jews and Judaism. >>In the event such a conflict arises, where will you stand? >As I have said before, I will stand with whoever is right. If both >parties positions are equally legitimate, then I support compromise. >My opinion is that it is those who cry "My ___ right or wrong!", who >equate loyalty with servitude, are the ones who are guilty of the >heinous crime (:-)) of oversimplification. Given the tendency of leftist assimilated American Jews to slobber sympathy over the suppression of Arab Muslim nationalism in the Land of Israel shows that many American Jews do not support Israel even when Israel is almost correct (the Israeli government dominated by non-Orientals probably errs in leniency). I increasingly admire Greeks who stand 100% behind Greece even when Greece is wrong as in the conflict over Cyprus. >>Unfortunately, I didn't see Mr. Martillo's original article - so I'm not >>defending it. I am taking issue with some of the criticisms raised. And >>I also suggest that he must have said something good - and described a >>shoe which fit and made some wearers mighty uncomfortable? Wherever the >>reader stands, at least give it some serious thought in formulating your >>stand. The issue of where you stand in these matters certainly merits >>that much. >Shoes which do not fit are the ones which are most uncomfortable. Best >not to assume.