Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site pucc-k
Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxj!ihnp4!inuxc!pur-ee!CS-Mordred!Pucc-H:Pucc-I:Pucc-K:agz
From: agz@pucc-k (Andrew Banta)
Newsgroups: net.motss,net.religion
Subject: Re: Atheism and Tolerance
Message-ID: <397@pucc-k>
Date: Fri, 5-Oct-84 04:53:52 EDT
Article-I.D.: pucc-k.397
Posted: Fri Oct  5 04:53:52 1984
Date-Received: Sat, 6-Oct-84 04:48:18 EDT
References: <191@usfbobo.UUCP>
Organization: Alcohol Design and Application Corp.
Lines: 112

[]

Whoa! Hold on! It seems to me that we (or should I say YOU) have a
serious problem with your thought process:

>>> Your characterization of homosexuals (remember! "homosexuals"
>>> is shorthand for "persons who practice homosexuality") as an
>>> oppressed group is laughable.  What about other "oppressed groups":
>>> murderers, thieves, drug addicts, atheists.  In some cases the
>>> oppression is entirely self-imposed; in others the oppression is
>>> directly inflicted by other people as a reaction to *objectionable
>>> behavior*.
>>
>>When I first read this paragraph I intended publishing an angry flame. After
>>thinking about it for a day, I am sending you this private appeal instead.
>>Please think carefully before you commit to your reaction.

I'm not sure what my reaction to someone printing a personal letter of
mine would be, but I won't be as kind as to send you private mail only.
I won't argue what "oppressed group(s)" means. But you sure as hell have
some nerve grouping people together in the sense of "murderers,
homosexuals, thieves, drug addicts, atheists"!!! Here, let me give you a
brief rundown of what each of these groups does:
Murderers: kill other human beings.
Homosexuals: Prefer companionship of members of the same sex (put
delicately)
Thieves: Take possesions from other people, causing finacial harm.
Drug addicts: Have habits which require them to use illegal substances.
(Note: often leads to also becoming thieves, not always, though)
Atheists: People who don't believe in the existance of a God.
And just for the hell of it, I'll throw in
"Christians" (quotes intended, this does not imply all people who
believe in a God): Feel neccesity to condemn other people or groups with
word of a "being" that these other groups or people don't beileve in.

Now, excluding the final one, do I hear any complaints? The final one
uses a term that is often defined another way. I will use the definition
I stated hear for argument purposes.

Now, note any similarities between some of these groups? Note any
differences? Good! You're brighter than I thought. We take the
murderers, the thieves, and the "Christians" (please remember what
definition I'm using here). These three groups have very little regard
for the rights of others. They feel that people are put on this earth so
they can do physical and/or emotional and psychological harm. They do
not regard the rights of other people. In essence, they INJURE other
people.

Now, we take the atheists, homosexuals, and drug addicts. These people
don't neccesarily violate the rights of other human beings. There are
many other groups which fit into this classification which aren't
listed. They may do physical harm to themselves. They probably should be
persuaded not to. In spite of this, they do not INJURE other human
beings. They should be left to do as they please, without being
discriminated against.

Now, please, once again note, that the "Christians" I am talking about
are the ones who are POSITIVE they are right. There is nothing that they
can do that is wrong, and if anybody disagrees, they get lambasted with
the worst the "Christian" can do. In most cases, this is being condemned
to hell. Not a pleasent thing to say to someone, but reasonably
harmless. If you get a group of these people together, it gets to the
point where they won't associate with the person who doesn't agree with
them.

What I have said so far can probably be summed up as: If the person or
people are going to injure other people, in one way or another, they
should be punished. If they are not out to injure other people, but
simply live as they want to, that should be their right. Nobody should
be allowed to interfere.

> Atheists certainly should not be
> elected to public office or appointed to judgeships as they have no
> basis for making good judgements but then, neither do many "Christians".

BULLSH*T!  Religious judgement is not always the right judgement. I
suppose that if you feel this way, there are numerous theocracies you
can move to in this world. Just because and atheist doesn't believe that
there is some big omnipotent, super-natural fruitcake in the sky doesn't
mean that he can't make judgements that are in the interest of other
human beings or the society as a whole. It has always been my feeling
that we live in a country where the individual in association with his
society is the most important thing. The individual should not be able
to govern what the society does and the society should not be able to
govern what the individual does.

> In fact, many atheists, because of proper religious instruction at an
> early age, make better judgement than many religious fanatics.  For the
> present distress I am satisfied with the election process.

I think I just went thru the point that religious judgement is not what
society needs. Simply judgemnet that allows the society and individual
to function happily with each other.

> Guess what?  My own father is an atheist!  We get along fine!  I just
> point out that abortion as a means of controlling population is an
> abomination, he disagrees and goes on to say that legislation against
> pornography is an abomination.  Then he buys me dinner and we talk about
> the dog, my brothers, an upcoming fishing trip and have a swell time!

I'm glad to hear this. It sounds like you're on the way the seeing
things the way they ought to be. I won't touch on abortion or
pornography now. Look at this article and see if you can figure out for
yourself. I'm just glad we had this conversation.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Banta			{decvax!allegra!inhp4}!pucc-k!agz
Alcohol Design and Application Corp. --- Serving people over 21 years.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Who was found dead on the phone?
 Who was dragged down by the stone?"