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From: david@fisher.UUCP (David Rubin)
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Re: School Prayer Amendment - reply to ??
Message-ID: <325@fisher.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 25-Sep-84 10:01:07 EDT
Article-I.D.: fisher.325
Posted: Tue Sep 25 10:01:07 1984
Date-Received: Wed, 26-Sep-84 19:47:53 EDT
References: <994@akgua.UUCP>
Organization: Princeton Univ. Statistics
Lines: 64

Bob Brown writes, in part:

>Again peer ridicule is exercise of free speech.  Ignorant
>and unkind as it can be it is part of the exercise of
>free speech.  Would you have the teachers or their
>assistants patrolling the school yard searching for 
>those ridiculers (?) of their peers and punishing them ?

				...

>Finally, the Constitution as implemented did not prohibit
>public exercise of religion (especially Christianity) in
>our public institutions.  It remains to be seen if your 
>view will carry the day legally but your view is certainly
>anti-historical in view of the continuous presence of
>God and religion (again usually Christianity) in the
>Government from the Continental Congress all the way
>down to the House and Senate today who continue to have
>invocations and chaplins.  In the beginning of our Republic
>this "flaw" was not evident to the Founding Fathers (and Mothers).

Schools are places for the education of minors. Any speech by them
which disrupts the classroom should be proscribed. I hope Bob Brown
does not believe that the first amendment to the Constitution protects
screaming tykes. It does not protect juvenile ridicule, either.

This is also true of adults. Consider such crimes as yelling "fire" in
a crowded theater, slander, harrassment, being a public nuisance,
perjury, public disordliness, etc. These are not protected rights,
even for adults. There is a difference between the Founding Fathers'
guarantee of Free Speech and Bob Brown's claim of Free Talk. 

Also, schools are NOT public places, though they may be publicly
owned. A public place is one open to someone off the street to enter,
such as a park or a movie theater (note this may be privately owned and
may charge a fee, but may not prohibit an individual from entering,
and is thus a public place). Since schools do have restricted access
("visitors must first report to the office" where they are or are not
approved), it is not a public place. If it were, then, say, Moonies
would have free run of the hallways.

The Constitution prohibits teacher-administered group prayer, as this
would necessarily involve the establishment of some religion or
religious tenets. Other vocal prayer is permitted only if it is not
disruptive. In school, I believe it would be permissable during a
period devoted to extra-curricular activities (such as an "activities"
period after school), but not during classroom hours, that is, periods
where attendance is mandatory. Vocal prayer deserves no more protection
during hours than any other expression of personal belief would receive.
Finally, silent, personal prayer has always been permitted, and it is
also guaranteed.


				A QUESTION:

My question to those who feel the status quo is insufficient: does 
your religion teach that God is less likely to hear silent prayer
than vocalized prayer? Does it teach that God listens more carefully
to group prayer that to individual prayer? If it does not, then your
ends are socially motivated rather than religously motivated, and you
ought to frankly concede that.
						
					David Rubin
			{allegra|astrovax|princeton}!fisher!david