Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 exptools 1/6/84; site ihuxm.UUCP
Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxj!ihnp4!ihuxm!jtc78
From: jtc78@ihuxm.UUCP (Mike Cherepov)
Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish
Subject: Re: Position, Rebuttal & Flame (around Martillo & Ashkenazim)
Message-ID: <1093@ihuxm.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 16-Oct-84 09:55:15 EDT
Article-I.D.: ihuxm.1093
Posted: Tue Oct 16 09:55:15 1984
Date-Received: Wed, 17-Oct-84 05:36:43 EDT
References: <1038@akgua.UUCP>
Organization: AT&T Bell Labs, Naperville, IL
Lines: 203


Oh well,
It's time to write a long one:

Using Martillo's logic one can decide that, say, earthquakes are
more anti-semitic then tidal waves because earthquakes kill more
Jews. But the truth is that earthquakes kill more people of all sorts.
Ridiculous as it may sound that almost exactly duplicates some of
Martillo's arguments (to be examined below).

There are two points I would like to make up front.
1) In determining what "being a Jew" means I put more (but not all) emphasis
   on self-awareness and origin then on practicing Judaism.
   I totally missed that discussion here and do not know what the
   majority thinks, but debating this is a huge issue all by 
   itself and should be treated separately.
2) I think that in deciding to what extend an individual
   or a society is anti-something (e.g. anti-semitic) the
   only meaningful method is to compare their attitude towards
   members of the group in question to their attitude towards
   other members of society. I assume that most people would
   agree.
   
**

Martillo totally ignored my position (not to mention some facts
I supplied). My premise was to show that 
under the Czars position of a Jew COMPARED to position of ethnic 
Slavs was even more subordinate and 
humiliating then it is under communist rule. 
It is not my intention to credit communists with any "improvements".
They made life more miserable for all the peoples inside the
USSR, but in the process some of the balances shifted. I feel
that gap between rights of Jews and non-Jews has narrowed during
the Soviet rule (although now it is quickly growing again). 

This is a meaningful way of comparison, more so then Martillo's
attempt to use numbers of victims because:---->

amount of anti-semitism is determined by deviation of standards applied
to Jews from the standards applied to the population in general.
                   what do we know about the latter!!?

Looking a bit further, we ultimately stumble into that same question. 
Is being the first man in a village better then second man in a city? 
Projecting that onto the situation in question I go along with
that statement. Improvements are valuable inasmuch as they put an
individual ahead of his/her peers. Would you prefer to have IQ
of 160 where 100 is average, or 200 where it is 310 (and therefore
be a moron)? Well, example is silly, but gives the drift:
"better" means to me "better if compared to 
how others are". There are limits to that too (being a foreman in 
concentration camp is worse then being a plain laborer at large).
But this is a arguable position and also should be discussed
separately.

Now to Martillo's arguments:

> I  showed  the  articles  on  Czarist versus Soviet treatment of Jews to
> members of the Russian Jewish community in New York and Boston.  If  any
> one wants phone numbers, I can give via private mail.
> The results:

I hope you have a statistically meaningful sample of those members.
I probably can give you a list of members of Russian Jewish community 
that is at least 20 times as big as yours (starting with myself), 
comes complete with phones, addresses, and shoe sizes, and contains
people who would agree with ME. Would you trust this VusVus horde?

> Czarist Pogroms versus Yevsektsia and Stalinist Executions.
> In a typical czarist pogrom order of 20 people died.
> Over a similar time period the Yevsektsias or Stalin would order several
> hundred executions.
> Drafting of Children versus Removing children from unfit parents
> (because of Jewish identification)
> About equal numbers except that the Soviets have been more likely to
> execute or exile the parents to Siberia.

This is amazing. Don't you know that Stalin is credited with
exterminating several millions of people - mainly Russians and
other Slavs? It was a part of generally anti-people campaign, 
not an anti-semitic campaign.
The drastic decline in the number of Rabbis was accompanied by 
drastic decline in the numbers of Christian Orthodox priests,
Mullahs, Catholic priests, monks, nuns, etc. That was a part
of a general crackdown on religion.
I understand that you consider that a greater blow for the Jews,
but I disagree with that (rf. Point 1.).

In the 1920's and 30's there were universities, schools,newspapers, 
magazines for Yiddish speaking Jews. All of that was to be squelched
later. This is not Martillo' idea of Jewish identity, but it was
about as much as any people in USSR could get. Now there are 2-3 
pro-government's Yiddish publications sustained and subsidized for
propaganda purposes, which no one reads. That is a clear indication
of current anti-Jewish policy trends. I could say a lot more, 
but that would bury the chances that someone
would read this monster posting.
> Attending Universities
> 
> Czarists and Soviets place restrictions on Jewish attendance at
> University.

Despite the glaring discrimination (which I experienced first-hand)
the percentage of Jews who have university education is the highest 
of any ethnic group in USSR. It is around 30%, is growing as older
people die, is used by Soviet propaganda to "prove" that no inequalities
exist, and might be higher in reality (judging by encounters I've had).
Some universities do not accept Jews 
at all, others seem to have almost no restrictions. Of course, 
there are highly unofficial "policy adjustments", and these days no 
change is for the better.

> Soviet -- total destruction of the Jewish community by forbidding and
> making illegal any sort of Jewish education or Jewish observance.

This is bull. Although Judaism is more severely persecuted the any
other religion, there is a small number of synagogues (in some big
cities). Their activities are pretty much controlled, but so is
everything else. Have you heard about the story of several Pentecost
baptists who spent several years inside American embassy in Moscow
hoping to be allowed to leave the country so that they can
practice their faith?.

> Emigration
> Under the Czarists Jews were always free to leave.
> Under the Soviets even when some Jews were permitted to leave, there
> were massive restrictions.

I am almost running out of patience. NO ONE is free to leave the
USSR! In the past years some exceptions were made for Jews, Armenians, 
and Germans who could show (primarily forged) invitations
from their relatives abroad. This is not an example of anti-semitism!
I knew Russians who expressed envy and bitterness about the fact
that Jews were granted such an unheard-of privilege!

> Why do Mike Musing and David Rubin believe Ignorant VusVus Fairy Tales
> about the Czarists?

I believe no tales, son, I talked to people (some of them fairly educated)
who experienced what you heard and read about Czarist Russia, I probably 
read much more about it then you did, I compared that to what I know
and made my judgement.

> Assimilated Ashkenazim consider restrictions on admittance to non-Jewish
> society a most terrible form of anti-semitism.  In Czarist society a Jew
> was always a Jew even after conversion.  The Soviets pay lip service  to
> ideas  of  equality  and  universality of human society.  The low common
> vulgar VusVus, who came to the USA before the 20s who knew nothing about
> Yahadut  and therefore grovelled and had no pride, psychologically found
> czarist restrictions unbearable.

Is not that what I said? Jews even were not allowed to settle in or enter
many areas of the country including all major cities. Also, see flame.

> Just a note  on  general  (not  related  to  Jews)  Czarist  and  Soviet
> brutality.   In  the  19th  century the Czarist empire was primitive and
> barabic yet less than 30 were executed by  the  government.   Since  the
> beginning  of the Soviet Regime (less than one hundred years ago) on the
> order of 20 million people are estimated to have been  murdered  by  the
> government.

See my understanding of anti-semitism. 
I feel that it is a reasonable one and would hold on to it unless
shown something better.
This brutality was, just like you said, NOT RELATED TO JEWS,
therefore, not specifically anti-semitic. 
There is no way in the world I could give anyone the idea that I
defend any of these atrocities, if only that person would bother
to listen to me.

> The hallmark of the VusVus is not letting  reality  interfere  with  his
> world view.

**************************** Promised Flame:
     
Annoying: Martillo defined VusVus as a derogatory epithet for
  an Yiddish speaker or a DESCENDANT (italicized by me, M.C.) 
  of Yiddish speakers.  
  Frankly, I think that there is nothing disgraceful in being 
  a descendant of anybody, even if that ancestor was a bigoted snob
  of a kind we see on the net. 

  But if somebody told me a derogatory epithet for a Sefardi Jew
  or a descendant of Sefardi Jews I would gladly reserve it to label
  Mr. Martillo and his opinions the way he labels me and my thoughts
  without bothering to look.

******************  conclusion

I feel very uncomfortable about trying to write about this as
some people could still be misguided enough to interpret this
as a piece in support of Soviet something-or-other.
But I think I expressed my point well enough (although too
loquaciously).

It is just that I hate prejudice and pesumptuous misrepresentations,
whether they are generated by elders in Kremlin or Torah-sages
in Massachusetts.

                      Mike Cherepov (musing no more)

                   flames and kudos to - ihlpm!cher