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From: ken@qantel.UUCP (Ken Nichols@ex6193)
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Re: morals, and the low correlation with religion
Message-ID: <248@qantel.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 18-Oct-84 14:42:15 EDT
Article-I.D.: qantel.248
Posted: Thu Oct 18 14:42:15 1984
Date-Received: Sat, 20-Oct-84 08:08:00 EDT
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Laurie writes,

> About five years back (when I was a much nicer person than I am now), a friend
> of mine who had recently 'seen the light' came to visit.  In between playing
> rather loud Swedish gospel music on my stereo, she tried to, ahem, convert me.
> Among her arguments were; even though I had the 'strongest set of morals she
> had ever seen' (I told you it was a long time ago) I would most certainly
> burn in hell because I had not accepted jesus christ as my personal saviour.
 
She was right.

> Now, my first response was that since she was a guest at my place, I really
> didn't need the hassle.  Also, I thought that the christian group has a
> rather bizarre set of criterion for saving people.  When I asked her if a 
> child in India who had never heard of her saviour, and died without ever having
> heard of her saviour, would burn in hell, she said yes.  When I asked her if
> a Buddhist monk, never having harmed anyone in his life would burn in hell,
> she said yes.  Amazing.  You can burn in hell for not being in the right place
> at the right time....

You burn in hell for your rebellion against God.  The rebellion you were born
with.  God, in His omnipotence will take care of the child and the monk.  If
they are searching for God, they will be rewarded in finding Christ (the only
way to heaven).

> A long, long time back (when I was even nicer), the kids in the neighborhood
> and I would play games in the street at night (kick the can, four-square).
> Anyway, about every May, we would be deluged with students from the local
> baptist high school.  They apparently had to 'save' x number of people to
> graduate from the high school.  These people didn't even have any concept of
> what they were doing.  They just wandered up, asked if we knew that when we
> died, it we were going to hell or heaven, and if we had accepted jesus christ
> in our lives.  It got to be a game to see how many times we were going to be
> saved in a given month.

That was not a very good approach to use on a child, to be sure.  But they
were basically right in there motives for doing it.  They didn't want to 
see little children live without the joy of accepting Christ.

> Then again, this church was known for giving away shetland ponies to the 
> children who brought in the most friends for sunday school.

That is strange!!

> Well, the jist of this is that the fundamentalist movement appears to have
> a rather odd idea of what you need to be a *good* person.  Apparently 
> inherent morality isn't worth anything.  

That is absolutely right.  Why should you get to make the standards that you
live by.  The Bible says, "There is a way that seemeth right to a man, and 
the end thereof is death."  Your 'good' deeds are nothing but dirty rags in
the sight of a holy God.  Nothing you do is going to make you deserving of
anything from God but death and punishment in hell forever and ever.

> It is the acceptance of *their*
> god into your life which makes all the difference.  

Right again.  At least you know what we beleive.  Since there is no way that
we can reach God's standards on our own, and the result of this is punishment
in Hell, God sent His son, Jesus Christ to satisfy the anger of God towards
our sin.  However, in order to become justified in God's sight, we must first
accept the gift that God gave in the form of Jesus.  Doing this involves:

1.  Admiting you are a sinner by birth and by choice, and that you can nothing
    to get rid of your sin.   Then you repent (turn from) that sin and ask
    God to forgive that attitude of rebellion against God that you were born
    with.

2.  You must beleive that Jesus Christ was who He said He was, God's son.  He
    was 100% man and 100% God (not logical, but true).  This means beleiving
    that Jesus Christ is deity.

3.  Accept the fact that Jesus Christ came and died because of YOUR sin.  His
    death satisfied the debt that you owed to God because of your rebellion
    against Him.  Recongnize that there is absolutely no other means to reach
    God or to be saved.

4.  Receive Christ into your life.  This means that because you beleive 3 above
    you want Christ to become a real part of your life.  You thank Him
    because of the price He paid for your sin, and you want Him to control your
    life in return.  This is the difference between Christianity and other
    religions.  We are given the opportunity to have a relationship with the
    God of the universe in the person of Jesus Christ.  A friendship, if you
    will, with the Saviour of the world.

5.  Make Jesus the Lord of your life.  You express the desire for Him to be
    the ruler of your life instead of yourself.  This does not come easy.
    You will gradually turn different areas of your life other to the Lord as
    you continue in your Christian walk, but you should start at salvation by
    relinquishing your pride in yourself with the joy of your new relationship
    with God.

This is the meaning of the phrase 'receive Christ as your personal saviour.'

> They qualify this 
> arguement by the supposition that those who are 'saved' will naturally act
> better and nicer than those who haven't been saved (holy albeginsian, batman!)

Because of Christ involvement in your life, and your williness to let Him have
control, you will naturally (supernaturally?) become 'better' and 'nicer'.
Something I'd like to point out here is now that you are saved, the 'good'
deeds you did in the past, will now be *GOOD* deeds if you do them now.  Now
they are done for the right reasons (out of love for God, and His gift to
you).

> It appears, in their frenzy to 'save' souls (is that like plaid stamps?), they
> have gotten their own morality distilled into a mere meaningless chanting of
> words.

Man's morality is worth nothing in the sight of a holy and just God.

> maybe instead, to try and prove what a difference it has made in their lives,
> they might try following the tenets of Zoroaster (a well known non-christian),
> 'good thoughts, good words, good deeds'.

All this follows after you have become saved.  Having turned your life over to
the Lord will cause the good thoughts about Him to be expressed in good words
and deeds. 

> Think about it......
> 
> Laurie Sefton
> {decvax,ihnp4,harpo,allegra}!pur-ee!pucc-k!afo
> But honey, I need something I can use around the office

I hope you will think about it again.  Being saved, that is.

"...holding forth the                       Ken Nichols
 word of life..." Phil. 2:16                ...!ucbvax!dual!qantel!ken
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