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From: dubois@uwmacc.UUCP (Paul DuBois)
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Re: Wishful thinking (religion)
Message-ID: <321@uwmacc.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 20-Sep-84 13:22:22 EDT
Article-I.D.: uwmacc.321
Posted: Thu Sep 20 13:22:22 1984
Date-Received: Wed, 26-Sep-84 03:30:35 EDT
References: <311@ihu1e.UUCP>, <954@trwrba.UUCP>
Organization: UW Primate Center
Lines: 105


> 	[Paul DuBois]
> 	What about those of us who had no desire to be Christian, wanted
> 	nothing to do with Christianity, in fact LOATHED the very idea,
> 	and yet became Christians?  Have we rushed headlong to the
> 	conclusion we found most appealing?
> 
> 	[Jerry Nowlin]
> 	It's the abrupt instantaneous "miraculous" conversions that
> 	I have questions about.  Anybody got answers?
> 
> [John Nelson]
> There seem to be two issues here.  First, what did the person
> experience?  Second, is that person's interpretation of what happened

If you're asking what I felt like when I was converted:  I didn't
feel anything.  No emotional experience, no bells and whistles,
or choirs, or warm feelings.  Nothing.

> REALLY what happened (truth is so hard to pin down).  Perhaps the

Ah, yes!  It's all so complicated and how are we to know...
I've heard that one before.  Question for you:  is there an objective
reality?  If not, then your question doesn't make sense.

> reaction to the experience all depends on the individual and the nature
> of the experience.  Some might discount a religious experience as some
> natural or psychological phenomenom (two words I could never handle
> without a dictionary).  Others might believe that they have indeed
> experience something unique and inspired by a supernatural divinity.

My usual reaction to this sort of thing is to state
that if one wishes to ascribe a naturalistic explanation to my
experience, go right ahead.  I don't, however.  Nor do I make
much attempt to justify my position.  Pretty pigheaded, huh?
Why am I that way? Something like this:  I was an atheist.
God turned me into a Christian.  Now I'm not an atheist.
Not much of an explanation, I guess.  But I didn't do it,
so I'm hard pressed to explain it.  It's as much of a mystery
to me as it is to anyone.  All I know is WHO did it.  (Which,
after all, is quite sufficient)

> It isn't uncommon for someone to turn his whole life around and become

Before:				After:

Fornicator			No more (read net.singles)
Marriage?  UGH!!		Married.
Kids?  UGH!!!			One daughter
Drug user/seller		Still drink coffee - everything else
				went out the window
Pro-abortion			Anti-abortion
Pro-homosexuality		Anti-homosexuality
Filthy language			Can't stand swearing
Listened to secular music	Can't stand it now
all the time
Pro-feminism			Anti-feminism
Completely cynical		Can see the bright side of things
Evolution			Creation
Blunt				Still blunt!

But I didn't turn my life around.  I didn't TRY to do anything.
So how come I'm different?  (note:  Some of you may not agree that
particular changes reflect a distinctly *Christian* experience.
Perhaps not, but all of them came about in relation to my conversion.
Note also: anti-homosexual*ity*, not anti-homosexual, anti-femin*ism*,
not anti-femin*ist*.  There's a difference.)

The above list could be taken to reflect only rejection of certain
things, and in this sense is of course incomplete.

> a wholly different person.  Often this succeeds some sort of intensely
> emotional experience.  Such an experience does not prove the divine

Emotional?  Not in my case.

> intervention of God yet many are quick to ascribe the most commonplace
> events as signs from heaven.  Others wouldn't believe even if the
> clouds parted and choirs of heavenly voices (flanked by the Saints
> and Apostles) beckoned them on to a greater truth.

Well, of course.  Some people see the all things in spiritual terms,
others in entirely naturalistic terms.  If one believes that all
things must have a naturalistic explanation, then unusual events
which cannot explained have suspension of judgment applied to them.
"It's not supernatural, we just don't have an explanation for it
yet."
---
One more thing, which wasn't addressed in Mr. Nelson's
posting but which has come up before, viz., making God
in our image.  This doesn't make much sense to me.  Why
in the world would I make up a God who's going to blow
me into Hell forever if I don't wake up and realize that
I'm an abomination before Him and had better get with it
and start listening to Him?  "God loves you and has a
wonderful plan for your life?"  We've all heard that one
before.  And His plan for those who refuse to give up
their rebellion and disobedience is to remove them from
before His presence forever.
-- 
Paul DuBois		{allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!dubois

"Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein
do I delight."
				Psalm 119:35