Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site cybvax0.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!cybvax0!mrh From: mrh@cybvax0.UUCP (Mike Huybensz) Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: Re: Evidence for Christianity Message-ID: <182@cybvax0.UUCP> Date: Thu, 11-Oct-84 11:56:48 EDT Article-I.D.: cybvax0.182 Posted: Thu Oct 11 11:56:48 1984 Date-Received: Sat, 13-Oct-84 01:58:09 EDT References: <1700039@iuvax.UUCP> <567@bunker.UUCP> Organization: Cybermation, Inc., Cambridge, MA Lines: 79 Samuelson rejects physical evidence as a justification for belief in Christianity, but then claims to have been convinced by historical evidence. I'll comment on his "evidence", and you can make up your own mind about how tight a case he presents. First, in order to BECOME convinced, you must start with the possibility that the bible may not be inerrant. This means that any part of it may be false. > So, I would pose the following as a debate topic: The historical > evidence supports the contention that Jesus of Nazareth was killed > by crucifixion and was subsequently raised from the dead. > ... > Crucifixion, when done right, and the Romans knew what they were > doing, is invariably fatal. A gratuitous spear in the side > confirmed that Jesus was really dead. There are several consistent ways to explain the above claim. 1) JC really didn't die. A) The soldiers involved were incompetent. B) The soldiers were bribed to bring him down before death. Additionally, the spear in the side could have been made up to enhance the story. 2) JC did die. > Later, the disciples believed and claimed that Jesus had risen from > the dead. Their own belief is shown by the fact that they were > transformed from insignificant fishermen, a tax collector, and > whatnot into some of the most influential characters of all time. > I therefore think it silly to claim that the disciples stole the > body, not even counting the fact that a guard of soldiers was posted > to ensure that exactly that did not take place. 1) Hitler was transformed from an insignificant paper-hanger to one of the most influential characters of all time. He claimed many things, but we can't say he really believed all the things he said. Neither must we believe the apostles' claims without better proof. 2) Assuming JC did die: A) The body dissapearing might have been made up. There is no corroborative evidence that the body was placed in a tomb at all. All we have is the agreement of a set of possible co-conspirators (the apostles). B) The body could have been stolen by the apostles or others. Guards can be bribed, tricked, off elsewhere, or active participants. 3) JC may have lived, and been moved by one of the above scenarios. > Now if the enemies of Christianity knew where the body was, they > would surely have produced it. They didn't; as far as I know, they > never even claimed to. They claimed only that the body was stolen > by the disciples while the guards slept. (How did the guards -- or > anyone else -- know what happened while they were asleep? How did > the disciples move a rather large rock without waking them up? > And how often did guards sleep during their watch, anyway? (never > more than once)). As far as you know. Cute attempt, but you can't use ignorance as proof. And who would the "enemies" have shown the body to? Television? They would have had to parade it around many villages, following in the footsteps of the rumormongers. And how could they convince people that the corpse was JC? Fingerprints? Fillings in the teeth? Blood tests? Prove to me that Jimmy Hoffa hasn't been resurrected from the dead. As for the rock, it may be just enhancement of the story, or one of the above explantions may suffice. > Gary Samuelson "When the impossible has been eliminated, > bunker!garys whatever remains, however improbable, must be > the truth." -- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle Sir Arthur Conan Doyle believed until his dying days that certain photographs were proof positive of the existence of fairies. The photographs have since been exposed as fakes by the discovery of the children's book from which they were cut out, and the confession of one of the girls (now 80) who took them. So much for the great defective and your attempt at his methods. The fact is that the evidence for JC's rising from the dead is worth nothing unless you ASSUME the inerrancy of the evidence. -- Mike Huybensz ...mit-eddie!cybvax0!mrh