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From: aeq@pucc-h (Jeff Sargent)
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Re: DuBois, Kulawiec
Message-ID: <1246@pucc-h>
Date: Sat, 22-Sep-84 11:57:53 EDT
Article-I.D.: pucc-h.1246
Posted: Sat Sep 22 11:57:53 1984
Date-Received: Wed, 26-Sep-84 05:41:58 EDT
References: <302@uwmacc.UUCP>, <1196@pucc-h> <1226@pucc-h>, <1227@pucc-h>
Organization: Tucumcari Divinity School
Lines: 79

>> = Sargent
>  = Kulawiec

>> Don't you like the idea of transformed lives?

> Well, I don't know, since I'm not sure what a "transformed life" is
> supposed to be.

It's what one sees when a person who is really messed up comes to Christ, and
his life gets straightened out.  (In some cases this is more gradual than
others, mine for instance.)

> I certainly don't like (my perception of) Paul's
> (and possibly your) heaven/afterlife.

You did not describe your perception of heaven.  I perceive it as, above all
else, incredibly (to us on earth) joyful.

> I don't like the idea that some
> bozo god-being is going to send some of us to eternal bliss, and some
> of us to eternal torment.  That's a really stupid way to run a universe.

You still have your choice as to where you end up.  What's stupid about that?
Anyway, C.S. Lewis has speculated that Hell might actually be "nothing but
yourself for all eternity."

> When the day comes that I die, and find myself standing before some cosmic
> entity in judgement, I hope to be able to deliver my complaint(s) in person.

Good luck...Paul [the apostle, not DuBois] predicts that every knee shall bow
and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

> We [Kulawiec et al.] bother [living] because we see things worth doing HERE,
> NOW.  Rather than wasting our time trying to get folks to believe in the
> hereafter, or fighting wars over whether our vision of afterlife is right,
> or the other folks', or pouring money into religious institutions, or {and
> so on}, we'd rather enjoy what we have now as WE want to enjoy it, and work
> on making this place better for us, the next generation, and anyone else
> who happens along.

It seems that your perception of Christians' activity is incomplete.  Many
Christians are quietly active "making this place better"; they just don't
inject themselves into the media.  And anyway, the hereafter is by no means
all Christianity is concerned about.  Jesus Himself said that he had come that
people might have life, and have it abundantly.  This has been one of the most
difficult things for me to internalize, but I'm beginning to see the truth of
it.  He wants us to have a joyous life on earth too.  Andrae Crouch did a song
including the lyrics, "If Heaven never was promised to me...it's been worth
just having the Lord in my life."

> If I wreck my health or kill myself at an early age, what possible concern
> is that of yours? If I drink, or smoke, or get high, or have sex (yes,
> please), or anything else that falls into your category of "self-destructive",
> why should YOU worry about it?  Look, I'm having a great time, and if I
> go out this way, well, ok, maybe I'd rather stick around a little longer,
> but I'll settle for the good times I've had in preference to cringing about
> and worrying about what some turkey up in the sky thinks.

It seems such a shame to blow away a good piece of God's handiwork.  God don't
make no junk, and you're no exception to that.  In some ways you actually seem
a better man than some on this campus (possibly even including Brother Max).
Of course, if you do "go out" early, according to you you won't even know or
care what kind of life you had; who, or what, will be around to actually
settle for those good times?  And finally, as I commented in another article,
despite the fact that a lot of Christians do take a fearful approach to God,
that's not what He intends.  I'm finally learning that I can call Him "Dad"
and treat Him, not as a strict disciplinarian who deliberately knocks me down
over and over in order to get me to give up my sins, but rather as a Father I
can just go to and tell my troubles to, who will gently and wisely show me a
way out.

You're free to believe and live any way you like (though why you would want
hangovers is beyond me).  You seem to think your present life is pretty good.
All I'm doing is showing a way that has the potential to be even better.

-- 
-- Jeff Sargent
{decvax|harpo|ihnp4|inuxc|seismo|ucbvax}!pur-ee!pucc-h:aeq
"Jesus looked Death in the eye, and Death blinked first."