Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10 beta 3/9/83; site uwmacc.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxj!houxm!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!tektronix!hplabs!hao!seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!dubois From: dubois@uwmacc.UUCP (Paul DuBois) Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: Re: Wishful thinking (religion) Message-ID: <321@uwmacc.UUCP> Date: Thu, 20-Sep-84 13:22:22 EDT Article-I.D.: uwmacc.321 Posted: Thu Sep 20 13:22:22 1984 Date-Received: Wed, 26-Sep-84 03:30:35 EDT References: <311@ihu1e.UUCP>, <954@trwrba.UUCP> Organization: UW Primate Center Lines: 105 > [Paul DuBois] > What about those of us who had no desire to be Christian, wanted > nothing to do with Christianity, in fact LOATHED the very idea, > and yet became Christians? Have we rushed headlong to the > conclusion we found most appealing? > > [Jerry Nowlin] > It's the abrupt instantaneous "miraculous" conversions that > I have questions about. Anybody got answers? > > [John Nelson] > There seem to be two issues here. First, what did the person > experience? Second, is that person's interpretation of what happened If you're asking what I felt like when I was converted: I didn't feel anything. No emotional experience, no bells and whistles, or choirs, or warm feelings. Nothing. > REALLY what happened (truth is so hard to pin down). Perhaps the Ah, yes! It's all so complicated and how are we to know... I've heard that one before. Question for you: is there an objective reality? If not, then your question doesn't make sense. > reaction to the experience all depends on the individual and the nature > of the experience. Some might discount a religious experience as some > natural or psychological phenomenom (two words I could never handle > without a dictionary). Others might believe that they have indeed > experience something unique and inspired by a supernatural divinity. My usual reaction to this sort of thing is to state that if one wishes to ascribe a naturalistic explanation to my experience, go right ahead. I don't, however. Nor do I make much attempt to justify my position. Pretty pigheaded, huh? Why am I that way? Something like this: I was an atheist. God turned me into a Christian. Now I'm not an atheist. Not much of an explanation, I guess. But I didn't do it, so I'm hard pressed to explain it. It's as much of a mystery to me as it is to anyone. All I know is WHO did it. (Which, after all, is quite sufficient) > It isn't uncommon for someone to turn his whole life around and become Before: After: Fornicator No more (read net.singles) Marriage? UGH!! Married. Kids? UGH!!! One daughter Drug user/seller Still drink coffee - everything else went out the window Pro-abortion Anti-abortion Pro-homosexuality Anti-homosexuality Filthy language Can't stand swearing Listened to secular music Can't stand it now all the time Pro-feminism Anti-feminism Completely cynical Can see the bright side of things Evolution Creation Blunt Still blunt! But I didn't turn my life around. I didn't TRY to do anything. So how come I'm different? (note: Some of you may not agree that particular changes reflect a distinctly *Christian* experience. Perhaps not, but all of them came about in relation to my conversion. Note also: anti-homosexual*ity*, not anti-homosexual, anti-femin*ism*, not anti-femin*ist*. There's a difference.) The above list could be taken to reflect only rejection of certain things, and in this sense is of course incomplete. > a wholly different person. Often this succeeds some sort of intensely > emotional experience. Such an experience does not prove the divine Emotional? Not in my case. > intervention of God yet many are quick to ascribe the most commonplace > events as signs from heaven. Others wouldn't believe even if the > clouds parted and choirs of heavenly voices (flanked by the Saints > and Apostles) beckoned them on to a greater truth. Well, of course. Some people see the all things in spiritual terms, others in entirely naturalistic terms. If one believes that all things must have a naturalistic explanation, then unusual events which cannot explained have suspension of judgment applied to them. "It's not supernatural, we just don't have an explanation for it yet." --- One more thing, which wasn't addressed in Mr. Nelson's posting but which has come up before, viz., making God in our image. This doesn't make much sense to me. Why in the world would I make up a God who's going to blow me into Hell forever if I don't wake up and realize that I'm an abomination before Him and had better get with it and start listening to Him? "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life?" We've all heard that one before. And His plan for those who refuse to give up their rebellion and disobedience is to remove them from before His presence forever. -- Paul DuBois {allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!dubois "Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight." Psalm 119:35