Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site pyuxd.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!gamma!pyuxww!pyuxd!rlr From: rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Rich Rosen) Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: Re: Response to Ken Nichols' article on Tim Maroney (part 3) Message-ID: <192@pyuxd.UUCP> Date: Thu, 18-Oct-84 10:55:40 EDT Article-I.D.: pyuxd.192 Posted: Thu Oct 18 10:55:40 1984 Date-Received: Sun, 21-Oct-84 09:50:17 EDT References: <239@qantel.UUCP> Organization: Bell Communications Research, Piscataway N.J. Lines: 58 Keywords: rationalization, logical contradiction Ken also rationalizes away things that don't make sense in his world view by adding in other variables: man is evil because he is created in sin, and anything bad in the world is not god's fault, but rather Satan's fault. But these capricious additions to the picture still result in major contradictions within the belief system. > Until Tim understands the hatred of sin by God, he will never understand > these passages. When God looks upon a man, He wants to love him. But He > can't see beyond man's sin because of His holiness. (AN IMPERFECTION OF GOD?) > Sin has tainted this world that God created in perfection, and it will not > be restored until Christ comes back to reign. As Tim said, if god created a perfect universe, where did sin come from? Doesn't this imply that god is imperfect? Or is sin a part of god's plan, created by god because god deemed it necessary? If so, what is the "blame" borne by each human for god's having given him/her sin? The fact that there is simply NO cohesive logic in these notions makes it clear to me that they are rooted in what someone would WISH to believe, with feeble attempts to "rationalize" the holes in the notions. On the other hand, as Tim said, if the god you describe does exist, we have a pretty poorly run universe, run by a rather inept but despotic god. You might say "So what? He's god, he MUST be worshipped." People who think this way react very well to fascistic manipulation: "This is our leader. He is all powerful. Thus he should be obeyed." (In fact, religious thought is a form of fascistic manipulation! Actually that's historically inaccurate---religion and its ways of manipulating minds came *before* fascism arrived to make use of those same techniques.) As long as you ALREADY accept the "divine right of kings/despots/gods", then you'll be a good sheep. Thinking people can hopefully see beyond this. > Until then, the earth is under Satan's authority, and he can do with it as he > pleases (with God's permission). Another example of rationalizing to make things fit. God makes a perfect world. We've discussed why sin might exist as a part of god's plan, but wait, there are other things that have no bearing on sin that are simply horrible things that evolved as part of the natural process of the universe. How do we explain that in our god model? SIMPLE! It's Satan's fault. > I beleive that diseases were created when the earth was cursed because of > man's sin. Amazing how every evil thing comes back around to man's sin, isn't > it? Yes, isn't it? Says something about Ken's view of the universe. Is it based on reality, or simply on WHAT KEN WOULD LIKE TO BELIEVE? Yet another example of rationalizing by adding arbitrary facets to the belief system. "Every evil thing comes back to man's sin". Because that capricious arbitrary addition makes it all clearer, it therefore is so. Having corresponded with Ken before, I have some idea how he might respond to the discovery of such logical contradictions and presuppositions in his belief system: I don't care if it's unsupported by logic, I don't care about logic, that's the way it really is! I would hope that Ken can explain his reasons for thinking that "that's the way it really is" beyond the presuppositions and contradictions. -- "If we took the bones out, it wouldn't be crunchy!" Rich Rosen pyuxd!rlr