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From: rsk@pucc-h (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Re: DuBois, Kulawiec (the flames grow)
Message-ID: <1267@pucc-h>
Date: Thu, 27-Sep-84 11:48:22 EDT
Article-I.D.: pucc-h.1267
Posted: Thu Sep 27 11:48:22 1984
Date-Received: Fri, 28-Sep-84 07:32:31 EDT
References: <302@uwmacc.UUCP>, <1196@pucc-h> <1226@pucc-h>, <1227@pucc-h> <1246@pucc-h>
Organization: Purdue, THE Indiana University
Lines: 95

>>   = Kulawiec
>   = Sargent

>> [In response to Jeff's query about whether I liked the idea of "transformed lives"]
>> Well, I don't know, since I'm not sure what a "transformed life" is
>> supposed to be.

> It's what one sees when a person who is really messed up comes to Christ, and
> his life gets straightened out.  (In some cases this is more gradual than
> others, mine for instance.)

	Okay, now I can answer:  No, I don't like it.

>> I certainly don't like (my perception of) Paul's
>> (and possibly your) heaven/afterlife.

> You did not describe your perception of heaven.  I perceive it as, above all
> else, incredibly (to us on earth) joyful.

	Did you read my bloody article?  I said that personally, I don't
	think there is such a place; now, after that, why the hell would
	you complain because I didn't describe it?

>> I don't like the idea that some
>> bozo god-being is going to send some of us to eternal bliss, and some
>> of us to eternal torment.  That's a really stupid way to run a universe.

> You still have your choice as to where you end up.  What's stupid about that?
> Anyway, C.S. Lewis has speculated that Hell might actually be "nothing but
> yourself for all eternity."

	What the hell has C.S. Lewis got to do with this discussion?  For
	that matter, what the hell has free will got to do with it?  I'm talking
	about the utter idiocy of the eternal-niceness/eternal-torment scheme.

>> When the day comes that I die, and find myself standing before some cosmic
>> entity in judgement, I hope to be able to deliver my complaint(s) in person.

> Good luck...Paul [the apostle, not DuBois] predicts that every knee shall bow
> and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

	Yeah, bit fat hairy deal.  Sure, if ol' omnipotent god-being decides
	to modify my brain-circuits, then I just might say or do whatever
	it wants.  Come to think of it, the biblical god is just about enough
	of an asshole to do that, just for his own "glory".

>> If I wreck my health or kill myself at an early age, what possible concern
>> is that of yours? If I drink, or smoke, or get high, or have sex (yes,
>> please), or anything else that falls into your category of "self-destructive",
>> why should YOU worry about it?  Look, I'm having a great time, and if I
>> go out this way, well, ok, maybe I'd rather stick around a little longer,
>> but I'll settle for the good times I've had in preference to cringing about
>> and worrying about what some turkey up in the sky thinks.

> It seems such a shame to blow away a good piece of God's handiwork.  God don't
> make no junk, and you're no exception to that.  In some ways you actually seem
> a better man than some on this campus (possibly even including Brother Max).
> Of course, if you do "go out" early, according to you you won't even know or
> care what kind of life you had; who, or what, will be around to actually
> settle for those good times?

	*You* think it's god's handiwork; I think it's a large collection
	of molecules that happens to be self-aware.  Do you think I have
	to "know or care what kind of life (I) had"?  Why?

> And finally, as I commented in another article,
> despite the fact that a lot of Christians do take a fearful approach to God,
> that's not what He intends.  I'm finally learning that I can call Him "Dad"
> and treat Him, not as a strict disciplinarian who deliberately knocks me down
> over and over in order to get me to give up my sins, but rather as a Father I
> can just go to and tell my troubles to, who will gently and wisely show me a
> way out.

	Yeah, so what?  What has this got to do with any of the rest of this?

> You're free to believe and live any way you like (though why you would want
> hangovers is beyond me).  You seem to think your present life is pretty good.
> All I'm doing is showing a way that has the potential to be even better.

	I don't want hangovers; I accept as a consequence of getting drunk.

	I do think my present life is pretty good; one of the only bad spots
	is that certain people keep insisting that it's not, and that they
	can make it better.  You entirely missed the point of my little
	story about the shoes, and who needs them--and who doesn't.
-- 
---Rsk

UUCP: { decvax, icalqa, ihnp4, inuxc, sequent, uiucdcs  } !pur-ee!rsk
      { decwrl, hplabs, icase, psuvax1, siemens, ucbvax } !purdue!rsk

And in all your pomp and glory,
You're a poorer man than me,
As you lick the boots of death,
Born out of fear.