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From: mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate)
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Re: Yiri's Last Stand
Message-ID: <203@umcp-cs.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 2-Oct-84 18:36:28 EDT
Article-I.D.: umcp-cs.203
Posted: Tue Oct  2 18:36:28 1984
Date-Received: Thu, 4-Oct-84 04:41:29 EDT
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Organization: U of Maryland, Computer Science Dept., College Park, MD
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As few comments on Yirmiyahu's last pronouncement as I can restrain myself
to:

   The significant protestant translations use the Sinaiticus, Vaticanus,
Alexandrius Codices primarily (they tend also to the the Washington Codex
because of its availability).  While Sinaiticus is the oldest now existing,
it is still at least 40 to a hundred years after the likeliest initial
writings.  There is no evidence whatsoever for any Hebrew text at all.
Most translations do in fact rely primarily on Sinaiticus, whose place of
origin is, incidentally, unknown (the names generally refer to discovery
sites or to where the codex is now kept).  From what I can tell, 
Yirmiyahu's textual recostruction technique consists of rejecting any
ideas which are identifiably Christian; it is no wonder that the
remainder is very jewish.

The etemology of "Easter" provided is only relevant to English.  English
is in fact the only language that uses different words for "Easter" and
"Passover".

Since I view Judaism as a religion, my comment concerning Yirmiyahu's
jewishness should be correctly read to mean that I expect people who
subscribe to a particular position to argue as if they actually believed
in it.  I should hardly expect Yirmiyahu to suddenly come out and say that
christianity is right and judaism is wrong-- and it would take all the fun
out of it :->.

Textual reconstruction is no more immune to slanting than translation is.
The method that Yirmiyahu has chosen is guaranteed to strip the
christianity from christianity.  If I were to apply the same method to
the torah, stripping away Sumerian ideas, for instance, there would be
little left of Genesis.  One could just as well attempt to strip the
so-called pagan ideas from the NT.

And a couple of key things are quite constant, such as the ressurection.
Is someone prepared to tell me that "He who has seen me, has seen the
Father" is jewish?  It's much more like blasphemy.

THe question of the spelling of the words traditionally rendered
"Nazareth" and "Nararene" is a ripe field of speculation, but without some
outside references, signifies nothing concrete.  My "ludicrous suggestion"
was made on the spur of the moment, and was labelled as such; I suggest
that a little tolerance on Yirmiyahu's part would make others a lot more
receptive to his arguments....

I am aware that not all references in the Talmud to a Y'shua are to Jesus.
I too can read things in context.  The context of the passage I cited was
quite clear (unless Soncino can be accused of distorting the Talmud!).

At the end of this debacle, I must take offense at Yirmiyahu's rather
abusive language.  My comment concerning Jeremiah versus Yirmiyahu was
intended to reinforce the point that almost nobody can read hebrew or is
familiar with the hebrew names of things.  Yirmiyahu's persistence in
giving things their hebrew names may be (from a certain point of view)
more accurate, but its effect can only be to conceal what he is talking
about.  He is very smug about the fact we cannot understand what he is
talking about, when all he has to do is speak English.  Hebrew name magic
aside, there is no difference between the prophet Jeremiah and the
prophet Yirmiyahu.  I respect Yirmiyahu's right to his name; I expect him
to respect my right to spoken to in a language I understand.

And finally, about my age:  no man my age should be subservient to another
for his religious views.  I would not have learned as much as I have if
I had let people browbeat me with their age.  Most probably, I have
studied religion more than most college graduates.  Yirmiyahu makes it
sound as if he has had the analogue of 20 years of fundamentalist
instruction.

My last word on this subject:

Absolutely.

Charley Wingate

"My wings are like a sheild of steel."