Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site trwrba.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxj!houxm!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!tektronix!hplabs!sdcrdcf!trwrba!jnelson From: jnelson@trwrba.UUCP (John T. Nelson) Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: Re: Wishful thinking (religion) Message-ID: <971@trwrba.UUCP> Date: Sat, 22-Sep-84 17:35:36 EDT Article-I.D.: trwrba.971 Posted: Sat Sep 22 17:35:36 1984 Date-Received: Wed, 26-Sep-84 04:38:13 EDT References: <311@ihu1e.UUCP>, <954@trwrba.UUCP>, <321@uwmacc.UUCP> Organization: TRW EDS, Redondo Beach, CA Lines: 88 Subject: Re: Wishful thinking (religion) There seem to be two issues here. First, what did the person experience? Second, is that person's interpretation of what happened If you're asking what I felt like when I was converted: I didn't feel anything. No emotional experience, no bells and whistles, or choirs, or warm feelings. Nothing. Come now! I'm surprised that you should interpret this to mean "physical experience." I mean, how were YOU changed as a person, not how your outward behavior changed. In what way did YOU become a different person inside? That's what the word "conversion" means you know... like Uncle Ben's rice. The point is... "Is your conversion REALLY attributable to God." REALLY what happened (truth is so hard to pin down). Ah, yes! It's all so complicated and how are we to know... I've heard that one before. Question for you: is there an objective reality? If not, then your question doesn't make sense. You've heard that one before... as if it were a cynical question. Consider what I am asking. How do you know that your conversion was indeed inspired by the hand of God? Why not convert to Ubizmitizm? Surely you aren't signing your life away to just ANY random deity. Converting to Christianity implies that you converted to that particular belief because...... (fill in the blank) My usual reaction to this sort of thing is to state that if one wishes to ascribe a naturalistic explanation to my experience, go right ahead. I don't, however. Nor do I make much attempt to justify my position. Pretty pigheaded, huh? No... actually sounds rather easy-going to me. Why am I that way? Something like this: I was an atheist. God turned me into a Christian. Now I'm not an atheist. Not much of an explanation, I guess. But I didn't do it, so I'm hard pressed to explain it. It's as much of a mystery to me as it is to anyone. All I know is WHO did it. (Which, after all, is quite sufficient) And how did you know it was God? That's why I ask, "what did you experience?" What is it that made you certain that it was God and not "The Great Ubizmo?" But I didn't turn my life around. I didn't TRY to do anything. Poor choice of words on my part. Emotional? Not in my case. Again poor choice of words on my part. Well, of course. Some people see the all things in spiritual terms, others in entirely naturalistic terms. If one believes that all things must have a naturalistic explanation, then unusual events which cannot explained have suspension of judgment applied to them. "It's not supernatural, we just don't have an explanation for it yet." Which harkens back to my original pair of statements. Sometimes, the reaction depends upon the person and not the experience. Had the naturalistic kind of guy been more of a Kingdom kind of guy he might claim to be in touch with God as opposed to suspending his belief in God. One more thing, which wasn't addressed in Mr. Nelson's posting but which has come up before, viz., making God in our image. This doesn't make much sense to me. Why in the world would I make up a God who's going to blow me into Hell forever if I don't wake up and realize that I'm an abomination before Him and had better get with it and start listening to Him? It wasn't addressed because it doesn't make much sense to me either. Who would be so foolish as to make up a God and then turn around and ignore it (note I said "it"). I guess you have to have a lot of confidence in yourself (or you secretly like punishment). ;-)