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From: rsk@pucc-h (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Re: Saint DuBois, Sinner Kulawiec
Message-ID: <1227@pucc-h>
Date: Thu, 20-Sep-84 21:54:11 EDT
Article-I.D.: pucc-h.1227
Posted: Thu Sep 20 21:54:11 1984
Date-Received: Tue, 25-Sep-84 21:09:54 EDT
References: <302@uwmacc.UUCP>, <1196@pucc-h> <1226@pucc-h>
Organization: Purdue, THE Indiana University
Lines: 73

Well, now that you've identified the players for us, Jeff, maybe we
can get on with the game.

From: aeq@pucc-h (Jeff Sargent)

> Why?  Don't you like the idea of transformed lives?

Well, I don't know, since I'm not sure what a "transformed life" is
supposed to be.  I certainly don't like (my perception of) Paul's
(and possibly your) heaven/afterlife.  I don't like the idea that some
bozo god-being is going to send some of us to eternal bliss, and some
of us to eternal torment.  That's a really stupid way to run a universe.

When the day comes that I die, and find myself standing before some cosmic
entity in judgement, I hope to be able to deliver my complaint(s) in
person...if then, I'm relegated to the pits, well, at least my self-respect
and integrity will be intact.

> I have never understood why those who believe they are just going to die,
> and that'll be the end, bother living.  If all there is is experiencing
> various facets of life -- growth, pleasure, relating, whatever -- with nothing
> eternal to which these experiences can be added; if all there is is the 
> physical body; why do you people bother?

We bother because we see things worth doing HERE, NOW.  Rather than wasting
our time trying to get folks to believe in the hereafter, or fighting
wars over whether our vision of afterlife is right, or the other folks',
or pouring money into religious institutions, or {and so on}, we'd rather
enjoy what we have now as WE want to enjoy it, and work on making this
place better for us, the next generation, and anyone else who happens along.

Maybe life as it is NOW, HERE, isn't enough for you.  Fine.  You can
believe whatever you want to.  But for some of us, it's all we need,
and we do just fine with it--we don't need a religious security blanket
to get through our days.  We're fairly happy even with our imperfections,
real and imagined, and we manage to get through life without worrying
about it over much.

> Perhaps "the sinners have much more fun", as Billy Joel said in the song this
> is alluding to -- in the short term.  But how are you going to have fun if your
> "fun" is of the self-destructive nature that wrecks your health or kills you
> at an early age?
> 
> And anyway, I have seen that "saints" can have genuine fun without indulging
> in a lot of the actions usually associated with the "sinners".  It is possible
> to have a good time on earth and still go to Heaven; so what do you gain by
> refusing the second to concentrate on the first?

If I wreck my health or kill myself at an early age, what possible concern
is that of yours?  If I drink, or smoke, or get high, or have sex (yes, please),
or anything else that falls into your category of "self-destructive", why
should YOU worry about it?  Look, I'm having a great time, and if I go out
this way, well, ok, maybe I'd rather stick around a little longer, but I'll
settle for the good times I've had in preference to cringing about and worrying
about what some turkey up in the sky thinks.

I'm having "a good time on earth" in the way I see fit; if YOU don't like
it (and what do you *really* know about it, anyway?) and if YOU don't think
I'll get the goodies when I bite the big one, YOU are welcome to your opinion.

George Carlin once pointed out that religion is like a lift in your shoe;
it's nice if you need it...but let's not go around trying to nail lifts
on the native's feet.

Not having a good time, but struggling with 
fast fourier transforms instead...
-- 
---Rsk

UUCP: { decvax, icalqa, ihnp4, inuxc, sequent, uiucdcs  } !pur-ee!rsk
      { decwrl, hplabs, icase, psuvax1, siemens, ucbvax } !purdue!rsk

Not fade away...