Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site cybvax0.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!philabs!cmcl2!seismo!harvard!godot!mit-eddie!cybvax0!ptc From: ptc@cybvax0.UUCP (Peter Crames) Newsgroups: net.philosophy Subject: Re: Torek on Rosen on Torek on Skinner Message-ID: <161@cybvax0.UUCP> Date: Thu, 4-Oct-84 18:00:49 EDT Article-I.D.: cybvax0.161 Posted: Thu Oct 4 18:00:49 1984 Date-Received: Sat, 6-Oct-84 02:15:14 EDT References: <376@wucs.UUCP> Distribution: net Organization: Cybermation, Inc., Cambridge, MA Lines: 47 R> = Rich Rosen, in letter to Paul Torek PT> = Paul Torek from "Torek on Rosen on Torek on Skinner", Sep. 27, 1984 = my reply R> Free will requires an agent external to the chemical processes R> "governed" by the cause and effect of physical laws. PT> Again, that's dead wrong. NO EXTERNALITY IS REQUIRED. Here again the crucial PT> behaviorist fallacy comes into play ("fallacy" in the colloquial sense). It PT> is the "either/or" fallacy - the fallacy of assuming that two categories are PT> mutually exclusive. In this case, the categories are agents and physical PT> things; in my dispute with karl@dartmouth, minds and physical things. TO PT> REPEAT MY BASIC POINT ONCE MORE: THESE CATEGORIES ARE *NOT* EXCLUSIVE; THE PT> ASSUMPTION -- AND THAT'S WHAT IT IS -- THAT THEY ARE IS UNJUSTIFIED. R> What "willed" the chemicals in your brains to move in a certain way to R> cause movement/action? And what "willed" whatever process in your brain R> that caused that chemical movement to start? PT> Again, the agent and the chemicals are one and the same.Viewed on one level, PT> we have an agent (me) making a decision;viewed on a lower (component) level, PT> we have certain chemical processes. To deny that there is an agent on the PT> ground that it is "just" a bunch of chemicals makes about as much sense as PT> denying that there is warmth in the room on the ground that there is "just" PT> a bunch of molecules moving around, or denying that there is wetness to the PT> water on the ground that we have "just" a bunch of molecules, none of which PT> (considered individually) is wet. PT> Paul Torek, ihnp4!wucs!wucec1!pvt1047 There is an external agent or "I" who causes the chemicals to swirl in our brains (and in the universe). That agent is God. All movement, including our thoughts and actions, can be traced back to God's First Cause, also known as the Big Bang. We (and the universe) can be viewed as a machine programmed by God. A machine is a physical object which moves according to God's laws of cause and effect, with no will of its own. A machine can not cause itself to move. Since our brains are machines, we can not cause our own thoughts and actions. Our thoughts and actions are caused to us by God. THIS THOUGHT is being caused, transmitted, or silently "spoken" by God, and it is being experienced, received, or silently "heard" by you, as a result of God's First Cause. This means that we all share the same causal agent, will, or "I" -- God. My use of the word 'machine' here is not meant to connote anything bad, nor is it meant to detract from the beauty of the universe. "Be still, and know that I am God." (Psalms 46:10)