Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10 beta 3/9/83; site uwmacc.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxj!ihnp4!zehntel!hplabs!hao!seismo!uwvax!uwmacc!dubois From: dubois@uwmacc.UUCP (Paul DuBois) Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: Conversion Message-ID: <341@uwmacc.UUCP> Date: Wed, 26-Sep-84 16:41:42 EDT Article-I.D.: uwmacc.341 Posted: Wed Sep 26 16:41:42 1984 Date-Received: Fri, 28-Sep-84 07:01:44 EDT Organization: UW Primate Center Lines: 97 > > Subject: Re: Wishful thinking (religion) > > There seem to be two issues here. First, what did the > person experience? Second, is that person's > interpretation of what happened > > If you're asking what I felt like when I was converted: I > didn't feel anything. No emotional experience, no bells and > whistles, or choirs, or warm feelings. Nothing. > > Come now! I'm surprised that you should interpret this to mean > "physical experience." I mean, how were YOU changed as a person, > not how your outward behavior changed. In what way did YOU become > a different person inside? That's what the word "conversion" means > you know... like Uncle Ben's rice. This is sort of a vacuous objection since I gave a whole list of ways in which I became different, later on in the same article. > The point is... "Is your conversion REALLY attributable to God." I would judge from some of your statements that you probably don't believe that there's any way to tell. If that's so, why waste time asking this question? > REALLY what happened (truth is so hard to pin down). > > Ah, yes! It's all so complicated and how are we to know... > I've heard that one before. Question for you: is there an > objective reality? If not, then your question doesn't make > sense. > > You've heard that one before... as if it were a cynical > question. Consider what I am asking. How do you know that your Sorry. I assumed it was, because I've heard it expressed that way from lots of people before. Several of whom were using it as an excuse. > conversion was indeed inspired by the hand of God? Why not convert to > Ubizmitizm? Surely you aren't signing your life away to just ANY random Because Ubizmitizm didn't reach down to me and turn me into someone different. > deity. Converting to Christianity implies that you converted > to that particular belief because...... > > (fill in the blank) It does? Why? Couldn't I have done it on an irrational and mindless basis? > My usual reaction to this sort of thing is to state > that if one wishes to ascribe a naturalistic explanation to my > experience, go right ahead. I don't, however. Nor do I make > much attempt to justify my position. Pretty pigheaded, huh? > > No... actually sounds rather easy-going to me. Me not dogmatic and open-minded? Don't make that mistake! :-) > Why am I that way? Something like this: I was an atheist. > God turned me into a Christian. Now I'm not an atheist. > Not much of an explanation, I guess. But I didn't do it, > so I'm hard pressed to explain it. It's as much of a mystery > to me as it is to anyone. All I know is WHO did it. (Which, > after all, is quite sufficient) > > And how did you know it was God? That's why I ask, "what did you > experience?" What is it that made you certain that it was God and > not "The Great Ubizmo?" How do I know? Because I do. If it happened to you, you'd know, too. Romans 8:16, I John 2:3,5. > Well, of course. Some people see the all things in spiritual > terms, others in entirely naturalistic terms. If one believes > that all things must have a naturalistic explanation, then > unusual events which cannot explained have suspension of > judgment applied to them. "It's not supernatural, we just > don't have an explanation for it yet." > > Which harkens back to my original pair of statements. Sometimes, > the reaction depends upon the person and not the experience. > Had the naturalistic kind of guy been more of a Kingdom kind of guy > he might claim to be in touch with God as opposed to suspending his > belief in God. And maybe he'd be right! -- Paul DuBois {allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!dubois "Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight." Psalm 119:35