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From: dubois@uwmacc.UUCP (Paul DuBois)
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Conversion
Message-ID: <341@uwmacc.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 26-Sep-84 16:41:42 EDT
Article-I.D.: uwmacc.341
Posted: Wed Sep 26 16:41:42 1984
Date-Received: Fri, 28-Sep-84 07:01:44 EDT
Organization: UW Primate Center
Lines: 97

> 
> 	Subject: Re: Wishful thinking (religion)
> 
> 		There seem to be two issues here.  First, what did the
> 		person experience?  Second, is that person's
> 		interpretation of what happened
> 
> 	If you're asking what I felt like when I was converted:  I
> 	didn't feel anything.  No emotional experience, no bells and
> 	whistles, or choirs, or warm feelings.  Nothing.
> 
> Come now!  I'm surprised that you should interpret this to mean
> "physical experience."  I mean, how were YOU changed as a person,
> not how your outward behavior changed.  In what way did YOU become
> a different person inside?  That's what the word "conversion" means
> you know... like Uncle Ben's rice.

This is sort of a vacuous objection since I gave a whole list of
ways in which I became different, later on in the same article.

> The point is... "Is your conversion REALLY attributable to God."

I would judge from some of your statements that you probably
don't believe that there's any way to tell.  If that's so, why
waste time asking this question?

> 		REALLY what happened (truth is so hard to pin down).
> 
> 	Ah, yes!  It's all so complicated and how are we to know...
> 	I've heard that one before.  Question for you:  is there an
> 	objective reality?  If not, then your question doesn't make
> 	sense.
> 
> You've heard that one before... as if it were a cynical
> question.  Consider what I am asking.  How do you know that your

Sorry.  I assumed it was, because I've heard it expressed that
way from lots of people before.  Several of whom were using it
as an excuse.

> conversion was indeed inspired by the hand of God?  Why not convert to
> Ubizmitizm?  Surely you aren't signing your life away to just ANY random

Because Ubizmitizm didn't reach down to me and turn me into someone
different.

> deity.  Converting to Christianity implies that you converted
> to that particular belief because......
> 
> 			(fill in the blank)

It does?  Why?  Couldn't I have done it on an irrational and
mindless basis?

> 	My usual reaction to this sort of thing is to state
> 	that if one wishes to ascribe a naturalistic explanation to my
> 	experience, go right ahead.  I don't, however.  Nor do I make
> 	much attempt to justify my position.  Pretty pigheaded, huh?
> 
> No... actually sounds rather easy-going to me.

Me not dogmatic and open-minded?  Don't make that mistake! :-)

> 	Why am I that way? Something like this:  I was an atheist.
> 	God turned me into a Christian.  Now I'm not an atheist.
> 	Not much of an explanation, I guess.  But I didn't do it,
> 	so I'm hard pressed to explain it.  It's as much of a mystery
> 	to me as it is to anyone.  All I know is WHO did it.  (Which,
> 	after all, is quite sufficient)
> 
> And how did you know it was God?  That's why I ask, "what did you
> experience?"  What is it that made you certain that it was God and
> not "The Great Ubizmo?"

How do I know?  Because I do.  If it happened to you, you'd know,
too.  Romans 8:16, I John 2:3,5.

> 	Well, of course.  Some people see the all things in spiritual
> 	terms, others in entirely naturalistic terms.  If one believes
> 	that all things must have a naturalistic explanation, then
> 	unusual events which cannot explained have suspension of
> 	judgment applied to them.  "It's not supernatural, we just
> 	don't have an explanation for it yet."
> 
> Which harkens back to my original pair of statements.  Sometimes,
> the reaction depends upon the person and not the experience.
> Had the naturalistic kind of guy been more of a Kingdom kind of guy
> he might claim to be in touch with God as opposed to suspending his
> belief in God.

And maybe he'd be right!
-- 
Paul DuBois		{allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!dubois

"Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein
do I delight."
				Psalm 119:35