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From: sharp@kpnoa.UUCP
Newsgroups: net.singles
Subject: Experiential processes (what a name for it !)
Message-ID: <353@kpnoa.UUCP>
Date: Sun, 10-Jun-84 21:06:01 EDT
Article-I.D.: kpnoa.353
Posted: Sun Jun 10 21:06:01 1984
Date-Received: Tue, 12-Jun-84 00:34:10 EDT
Organization: Natl. Optical Astronomy Observatories   Tucson AZ  USA
Lines: 124

Oh, goody, goody, my first ever flame on the net !
Since my intention was to start some discussion over and above the boring
"Yes, do" / "No, don't" articles, I consider this a success.  Having been
taken to task by one Moira Mallison (who posts interesting articles to other
groups as well), I shall now reply.  But first, I am taking an extreme stand
here because I believe that everyone should think, and the best way is to
get them irritated enough to try to express their opinions. I can be quite
reasonable. Honest. [:-)]

>What I notice in these responses are that the people who are saying, "don't"
>are the ones who haven't been there and the ones who are saying "you might
>want to" are the ones who have. 

 Well, of course !!  Once you've been brainwashed you're not going to be nasty
about the people who did it.  That's elementary even for the KGB [:-) :-)].

>Nigel says:
>...shared suffering builds lasting bonds...
>...They are all a mild form of brainwashing based on the psycho-
>logically attractive stand that "it's not your fault"...
>...I don't like to pontificate without data...
>...Before you ask, I have not taken any of these courses...
>***FLAME ON***
>Whew, boy! you seem to know a whole lot about it for not having experienced
>any of them...and I take offense at lumping est, Scientology and Moonies
>all into the same category...but, then you are probably further down
>the basket case-Randwulf continuum than I am!...and if you don't like to
>pontificate without data, why are you posting an article about an 
>*experiential process* which you have not had the *benefit* of experiencing?
>***FLAME OFF***

**FIRE EXTINGUISHER ON**
  Yes, I *do* know a whole lot about it.  In particular, I think I probably
know more about it than most and part of that is that, *since* I have not
experienced it, I can evaluate its effects without the handicap of a preformed
opinion shovelled ready made into my skull by certain well-paid advocates.
(You don't need to tell me they're not well-paid - even donations and other
"appearance fees" are real money.)  My knowledge is based on considerable
reading and considerable observation of people in both before and after states.
I have to admit that I was hoping to irritate by lumping such extremes
together, but, for the sake of the point, it is a difference in degree but
*not* in kind.  I wonder which way your "basket-case" continuum goes - perhaps
I'm better off being further down [:-)].  As I remarked originally, I am not
especially enamoured of my life, and know that I am susceptible to such courses,
but I prefer my own methods to paying large chunks of my meagre salary to
professional con-artists.
**FIRE EXTINGUISHER OFF**

  That was fun.

>Ahem...quite to the contrary, my dear Nigel, the point is not "it's not
>your fault", but more concisely, "what was in the past is past and it
>doesn't matter who was to blame.  What you do about it now is completely
>up to you.  If your life is not exactly the way you want it, then it's up
>to you to make it that way."  What is in the way for most people is FEAR.

   This appears to be the result of our different perspectives.  It seems to
me from the outside that the way people who have been through such trainings
respond is the way I stated - they have been taught that whatever went wrong
was not their fault.  They are certainly, and very healthily, urged to put it
behind them.  Brooding on the past is a well-recognised way to make a mess of
your present.

>The workshop provides an absolutely safe environment to get past some
>of the obstacles we put in our way.  No one is forced (explicitly or 
>implicitly) to participate in sharing personal experiences if that is 
>agonizing to them...there is an explicit agreement about confidentiality.
>In the workshop I was in, no one was forced to do or not do anything including
>leaving the room to go to the bathroom.  It was made sufficiently difficult
>because people tend to find reasons to avoid particularly difficult parts
>of the workshop.

Occasionally, obstacles must be tackled.  It is wrong to teach that *all*
obstacles should be side-stepped.  This is a minor point.
I think you underestimate the force of peer pressure.  By making people stay
for the difficult parts, you are certainly forcing them.  It is a rare
individual who can stand up against the behaviour of a large crowd, and such
individuals are not likely to be found in such courses. How many people were
looking around to see how others behaved ?  This is all force.

>     ....its the "nobody else's opinion matters" part that
>I want to address.  If somebody else doesn't like me that *is* his/her
>problem!  I am a special, unique powerful human being  (and I'm not as happy
>as I could be either) and if a person can't see that it is either
>because I'm building walls because I'm afraid to let him/her know it, or
>he/she is nearsighted.  The walls are something I can deal with and it 
>makes sense to put energy into them.  The blindness I can do nothing about
>(except maybe change who I am, but *why* would I want to do that?) and so
>its a waste of energy to bother about it. One of my favorite quotes (it
>puts a perspective on relationships of all kinds):
>
>	Don't take any of this personally. I'm merely reacting to you
>	the way I'd react to anybody who represents to me what you 
>	represent to me.

   If you like yourself, and someone else doesn't, it's their problem.  But
if you choose to live in a society, for the benefits that has, then you must
take the rough with the smooth.  One of the rough parts about living in any
group is that you have to take notice of other people's opinions, *even if
you/they don't like them/you*.  To refuse to acknowledge that other people
have as much right to an opinion as you do is to argue that they are lower
forms of life.  If you think they are misinformed, try to inform them.  
Again, this is based on how people have reacted.  Nice people end up nicer,
and very few of the people I've met have been excitable types - after all,
if the other person's opinion doesn't matter, there's no reason to get upset
or angry - but you have to deal with other people, not necessarily friends,
every day of your life.  Ignoring their opinions makes you a nasty person.
Reacting to others, as in the "don't take it personally" line, is *not* the
same as ignoring other people because they don't matter.  Don't reinterpret
my words into something I never said.

>The truth of the matter is, I haven't got a clue!
				
Hear, hear !  Neither have I, and I refuse to take someone else's reality.

Well, "my dear Moira", this is interesting.  Our local est people have given
up even arguing with me (I think they'd dearly like to convert me), so I have
to try to convert the rest of the world to my way [:-) what a way !].
I stick by my "friends rather than psychiatrists" line, and I have the 'phone
bill to prove it.  I am happy to say that I have never yet been let down by my
friends to the extent of psychiatry (and I *really am* weird), but who knows
what tomorrow may bring.  But I'll face it as myself.
-- 
	Nigel Sharp   [noao!sharp  National Optical Astronomy Observatories]