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From: sdyer@bbncca.ARPA (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: net.motss
Subject: Re: A Straight's Plea For Perspective.
Message-ID: <800@bbncca.ARPA>
Date: Sun, 24-Jun-84 04:16:39 EDT
Article-I.D.: bbncca.800
Posted: Sun Jun 24 04:16:39 1984
Date-Received: Sun, 24-Jun-84 08:16:26 EDT
References: <1000@hou5d.UUCP>
Organization: Bolt, Beranek and Newman, Cambridge, Ma.
Lines: 136

Mark, I am going to answer your questions honestly, in the spirit of
education, with as minimal a flame quotient as I can.  I must say, however,
that some of these questions are based on logic so bizarre that a lot of
them strike me the same as the medieval "How old are the children that Jews
kill when they drain their blood for matzohs?"  But the gentiles became
enlightened as time passed (some would dispute this) and we will
try the same for the unenlightened straight community.

   >I find the idea of a man finding me (a man) sexually interesting is
   >revolting.  Not just disgusting, not just bizzare, but actually revolting.
   >(My skin is creeping right now ...)

Don't know what to say here.  Should I have anything to say?  Like, whatever
turns you off, mannnn...  :-)  Sounds like your problem, not mine.

   >Question is, what happens if you are a lesbian and I (a man) find you
   >attractive.  Or if you are a gay man an I am a woman, and I find you
   >attractive.  And I let you know.  You know, flirting ( ... and what do
   >they call it when a man does it ...)  What do you feel?  What do you do?
   >What do you say?

   >If you find this revolting, then why would you WANT to live outside of
   >communities of folk like yourself?  Or at least why would you want to
   >socialize outside them?

Why would I ever find this revolting?  I have been the lucky recipient of
hints and passes from women, and depending on their nature and seriousness,
I might react any number of different ways.  If it's someone I know
casually, say, where I work, and I sense that she's flirting, that is,
bringing the conversation beyond friendly collegiality, it's real easy:
flirting is a two-way game and if one player doesn't return the volley, the
game gets pretty dull pretty fast, and they get the hint that I'm not
interested in pursuing anything romantic or sexual with them.  Of course,
this happens between straight men and women all the time, too, if one side
isn't interested in the other.  There's no need to interrupt and say, "Hey,
I'm gay and I won't respond to your subtle cues."  If it was someone I knew
better, then she'd probably know I was gay anyway, in which case I'd
probably start wondering just what she was up to, and ask her about it.  Of
course, if it's just playful, non-serious flirting, you don't have to be a
cold fish, either.  You just don't want to give anyone the wrong signals if
you can help it.

A few years ago, I moved into an apartment building where it turned out
that a woman I had taught in my Intro to CS section lived.  She was
attractive, bright, and unattached, and we both were glad to find a
compatible friend for dinner and conversation who was only a few steps
away.  Of course, after a few home-cooked dinners a deux, as we were
becoming closer friends, it became clear that I should share the fact that
I was gay with her, especially because I was no dummy, and I *knew* she was
getting romantically interested in me (I kept thinking "You're SUPPOSED to
be DOING something now, Steve" as we'd sit talking on the sofa.) So, I told
her, we stayed good friends and our relationship grew from there.  Funny,
we had dinner just a few weeks ago, and we were reminiscing about those
days.  She said, "You know when you told me that you weren't sure whether
this was relevant or not, but you're gay?  That was REAL relevant, and I'm
glad you told me."  So, in fact, what I had sensed had been really there,
and it had been good for both of us to get the facts out on the table
early.

Sure, I had thoughts like "Well, why not?  Why unnecessarily limit your
experiences to what you label yourself?."  But, I realized that I wasn't
dealing with an intellectual abstraction here, I was dealing with another
person, someone with feelings and needs, and since I knew myself, and what
I wanted and needed, it was clear to me that to go ahead and have a
relationship with her would be unfair to both of us, and possibly end in
frustration and acrimony.  To voluntarily get romantically and sexually
involved with someone when you know that you will not be giving your whole
self, where the element of sexual passion is missing on one side, is an
incredible act of egoism, where one is sacrificing the other person's
feelings merely for the sake of experimentation.  No thanks.

   >How do you feel (both intellectually and emotionally) about the idea that
   >children of hetero parents should/should not be brought into contact with
   >you in schools, day care centers, etc?  Lots of flames here, please ...

   >After all, if sexual orientation is established in pre-school years, then
   >don't parents have a right to have a say in influencing their children's
   >upbringing?

I won't give you a flame, merely state that homosexuality is not something
that can be 'caught' by casual contact with other people, including
teachers.  The theory that sexual orientation is established early hasn't
really been backed up by anything resembling proof, and what engenders that
orientation isn't known.  Many gay people (including myself) will
anecdotally state that they "knew" they were gay from a very early age.
Don't know why.  But there are just as many who did not confront this for
many years: puberty, or beyond.  It's a real mystery, still.  Let me let
you in on a secret: if all the children who were taught by gay teachers
turned out gay, then there would be no more "problem" because almost everyone
would be gay!  But, of course, they're not.  I grew up without knowing
anyone who was gay, and I was taught in parochial school by nuns.  Hmmm...

Anyway, use your head a bit.  How would you expect that this "germ" of
homosexuality would be passed on to your unsuspecting children?  Would
they admire our limp wrists and vow to emulate that?  Or maybe they are
attracted by our effeminate, swishy mannerisms, and kids love to imitate
their teachers.  Or maybe it's true that we "recruit" young kids--you
don't even want to know what goes on after class is out...BULLSHIT!
There are hundreds of thousands of responsible, capable, excellent teachers
in our school systems who just happen to be gay, and the only way you'd ever
know that would be if you were a close friend.  They walk, talk and behave
like you, you admire them and think they do a fine job, which they do.
Too bad they're scared shitless realizing that their job rests on the
ignorance and prejudice of straights, so they make as much of a life that they
can, shrouded in the secrecy that disappeared for most gay people 20 years
ago.  They like teaching, they are committed to their kids, so they stick it
out.

   >How do you feel knowing that if you find someone attractive on the street,
   >the odds are that that person will be revolted by what you feel?  Do you
   >feel that it is that person's fault, or is it just a bad accident of nature?

Frankly, Mark, I have never felt that anyone would be revolted by what I
feel.  I would prefer to classify people as potentially interested or
uninterested.  If I don't know someone, and the context indicates he's
straight or unstated, and I find myself attracted to him, then I enjoy it
for what it is, nothing more, nothing less.  Since this is strictly an
impersonal appreciation of another's features, I really don't care what the
other person would think, much as you can appreciate a beautiful woman on
the street even though you might not go up and introduce yourself.
If Rob Pike's "face server" ever gets written and made available for
USENET, you'd better watch out!  :-)

   >If, for a moment imagine if, someone had a magic pill that could actually
   >make you straight (as opposed to destroying you, a la Turing ...) would
   >you take it?  Were there times when you would have?

Not ever.  Being gay isn't always easy because of all the crap that society
drags along, but it is part of what I am.  I like myself, I have a
wonderful relationship with my partner of 5 years, I have many friends both
gay and straight, and I have a good, rewarding job.  Why would I want to
change it?
-- 
/Steve Dyer
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