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From: nessus@mit-eddie.UUCP (Doug Alan)
Newsgroups: net.abortion
Subject: Re: Reply to Doug ALan
Message-ID: <2223@mit-eddie.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 22-Jun-84 02:29:42 EDT
Article-I.D.: mit-eddi.2223
Posted: Fri Jun 22 02:29:42 1984
Date-Received: Sat, 23-Jun-84 02:58:29 EDT
References: <136@uf-csg.UUCP>, <2171@mit-eddie.UUCP> <1963@sdccsu3.UUCP>
Organization: MIT, Cambridge, MA
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()

>	From: kenn@sdccsu3.UUCP

>	Abortion isn't murder from the Pro-abortionists' point of view.
>	So, since something can't be murder from only one person's point
>	of view, does it make abortion not murder?  Or does the "can't
>	be murder" phrase mean that the pro-abortionists have an invalid
>	point of view?  Or or or?  Confusing, huh?  I think that second
>	sentence is wrong.  The first is subject to opinion.

I was responding to someone who said that if a fetus he fathered was
aborted then it would be murder, but if a fetus someone else fathered
was aborted, then it would not be murder.  Murder doesn't work like
that.  Murder is when one person purposely denies another person his
right to life.  If a fetus is a person, then it has a right to life.
Denying a fetus its right to life would be murder, even if the parents
don't want it.  On the other hand, if a fetus is a not person, then
killing it is not murder, even if the father wants it to be born.  The
strongest argument that can be made in this case is perhaps that the
father is being denied something that belongs partially to him.  But
this isn't murder.

In my opinion, what makes something a person is intelligence

>	What do you call the execution of a criminal?  Should executions
>	not be allowed whether or not the criminal is wanted?  What
>	about the criminal's mother and girlfriend, and the husband of
>	the woman he murdered?

Some people will claim that a criminal has given up his right to life by
committing a crime and therefore killing him isn't murder.  But a fetus
has never done anything, and therefore can't have given up its right to
life.  My opinion about criminals:  Capital punishment is wrong.  All
punishment is wrong.  Two wrongs don't make a right.  The purpose of the
justice system is to protect peoples' rights.  If this involves putting
a criminal in jail, this should be done to protect society -- not to
punish the criminal.

>	The baby couldn't be around without the father.  If society
>	demands for to marry the unwed mother, or to pay for (some or
>	all) of the abortion, he should be included into the abortion
>	decision.  Perhaps the woman should have veto power, since
>	she'll most likely be stuck with the baby (it's her body), but
>	the man should have some input.  What do you mean by
>	"(legally)"?

Practically, the fetus couldn't be around without the father.
Theoretically, the fetus could be.  The father has only provided
information (in the form of DNA) that is used to construct the fetus.
This information could theoretically have been generated in any number
of ways.

Fathers shouldn't be forced to marry an unwed mother.  Neither should he
be forced to pay for an abortion.  The woman made the decision to have
sex, and knew the risks and benefits.  The responsibilty for the fetus
lies with her.  On the other hand, it should be soley the woman's
decision whether or not to abort the fetus.  I'm not saying that the
woman shouldn't listen to the father's opinion nor that the father
shouldn't feel some responsibility and offer his help and opinion, but
that in the eyes of the law the fate of the fetus should be left up to
the woman.

>	I do not believe intelligence has anything to do with it.  Human
>	vegetables are as intelligent as the Safeway variety, and a
>	'murder' is legal for just one of them.

In my opinion, it isn't murder to kill a human vegetable.  In fact,
someone who pulls the plug on a human who has suffered brain death and
is costing millions in life support gets my vote as doing a great favor
to society.

If intelligence has nothing to do with it, then is puposely and unfairly
killing an intelligent Martian (let's assume for the moment that they
exist) murder?  I think so.  If it's not, why not?  If it is murder,
then why is it?
-- 
				-Doug Alan
				 mit-eddie!nessus
				 Nessus@MIT-MC

				"What does 'I' mean"?