Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1.chuqui 4/7/84; site nsc.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!mgnetp!ihnp4!nsc!chuqui From: chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Chuq Von Rospach) Newsgroups: net.singles Subject: Re: faggots and dykes Message-ID: <1075@nsc.UUCP> Date: Sun, 17-Jun-84 18:24:56 EDT Article-I.D.: nsc.1075 Posted: Sun Jun 17 18:24:56 1984 Date-Received: Fri, 22-Jun-84 05:29:30 EDT References: <1059@nsc.UUCP> <7450@rochester.UUCP> Organization: The Warlocks Cave Lines: 88 >Has it ever occurred to any of you progressive, right-thinking types, >who have been defending gay rights so righteously and at such great >length, that you are engaged in just the same kind of exercise that >authors of articles such as "faggots and dykes" are? Yes, it HAS occurred to us progessive, right-thinking types (since the References line on this article points back to an article of mine I think he was referring to me. As such, I shall endeavor to answer for myself). I happen to be human. Part of being human is being imperfect. I will gladly admit that I am bigotted and biased because I don't think any person can free themselves of this. It is simply too large a part of our social heritage. Unfortunately. I'm even willing to admit some of my biases: people who don't shower, people who don't think, people who don't like people for what they are, and people who insist on viewing human beings as little tiny things that can be shoved in a convenient box somewhere and typecast. These are all bigotries and biases, but I think they are MUCH healthier than the bigotries of people who don't like jews or gays or plaid warlocks. They are certainly less harmful to other people. >It seems to me that there has been an abundance of > > 1) ad personum attacks > 2) unsubstantiated (moreover undecidable) assertions about > what gays/straights are/aren't > 3) totally gratuitous speculation (if you think it absurd > for someone to argue from the premise of the world's being > TOTALLY filled with gays, you certainly needn't substitute > your own absurd speculation). In response: 1) I don't feel I attacked any person, just a set of very negative biases. If you feel uncomfortable with these attacks you might want to look as to whether or not they hit too close to home. 2) I don't think they were unsubstantiated. Look in the literature. Go out and (*gasp*) talk to gays. Go out and listen to them. I have had a number of gay friends of both sexes. I have been quite close to many of them. I have learned a lot. These assertions may not be substantiated from your view, but they are from mine because I have developed them from my experience and involvement with gay people. 3) This comment doesn't parse. Oh, well. >If the thesis is tolerance, as some of you are claiming, feel free to >actively display your own. I have an inordinate amount of tolerance for many things, including tolerance for people that don't take showers. As recent comments have shown, one thing I DON'T have tolerance for is when the bigotry or lack of tolerance causes problems for other people. Life is difficult enough for all of us-- we don't need to run around making excuses to make other people's lives worse. I try very hard to make myself and the people around me happy. I won't stand around and watch incosiderate bigoted assholes tear that down. My apologies to the net for drawing this argument out instead of letting it die and rot in hell where it belongs, but Chuqui happens to be pissed (an exceptionally rare event, thankfully) and he is not going to let the assholes ruin someone's life. >If the thesis is that all gays are normal, contributive, well-adjusted >members of society, then we may have a bright future to look forward >to, because straights certainly aren't. My thesis was not that all gays are normal, contributive or well adjusted. My thesis was that gays are just like the rest of us! Some are normal, contribiutive, and well adjusted. Some are screwed up in the head. Some are simply unsure of themselves. The same can be said for any group of people larger than about 10, regardless of sexual preferences, religious beliefs, color of hair, skin, eyelashes, whether they snore at night, drool at breakfast, pick their noses, brush their teeth, or eat raw squid. We are ALL human, dammit. The thing that pisses me off about all of this is there is an undercurrent in bigotry that says 'You are different from me, therefore you are less human than I am'. The thing that makes us human is our difference, denying that denies the very essence that makes us what we are, and that is the greatest sin that any man could make. chuq (Another heart-felt apology to the poor souls that have to wade through this. It probably should have been said privately but I just felt it couldn't be dropped until this last attack was answered.) -- From the ledge of the seventh cornice: Chuq Von Rospach {amd70,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4}!nsc!chuqui (408) 733-2600 x242 Love is the process of my leading you gently back to yourself. - Saint Exupery