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Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!masscomp!trb
From: trb@masscomp.UUCP
Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish
Subject: goyim
Message-ID: <313@masscomp.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 1-Jun-84 18:37:09 EDT
Article-I.D.: masscomp.313
Posted: Fri Jun  1 18:37:09 1984
Date-Received: Tue, 5-Jun-84 19:31:13 EDT
References: <798@akgua.UUCP>
Organization: MASSCOMP, Littleton, MA
Lines: 48

akgua!rjb:
>I am a redneck, but YOU better be careful in your reference to me
>as same.  See how it works ? An out group can abuse each other
>with the member names but NON-members can't.  I notice this among
>other out groups (i.e. Blacks, Catholics ( regionally) etc.)

>Do Jews do this too ?

>How about it Jewish persons ? Is Goy (Goyim) etc. equal to some of the nasties
>directed at Jews, Blacks, Irish, Catholics, ad nauseam,...

This is a pretty sticky question, I don't see anyone else taking it.

The word "goy" is sometimes used disparagingly, as is the word
"foreigner."  Certainly, when "goy" is used in Hebrew study as a word
to mark a distinction between a Jew and a non-Jew, it is not used with
negative connotation.  Note that a Jew would never call another Jew a
goy, not because it's so nasty, but because it doesn't apply.  Would a
redneck call another a redneck?  (I don't know.  What would it imply?)
It's not common for a Jew to call another Jew any of the common
disparaging names for Jews (I won't bother listing them here), even in
a friendly way as I sometimes see my black friends call each other
certain names.  I'm not trying to make a judgement here, just share my
experience.

I think I have skirted the issue...  Jews sometimes speak of "goyim"
with disdain.  I would say that, often, Jews who speak about goyim
are talking about them as outsiders, rather than as hated people.
Jews and goyim as us and them.  (This is hard to convey, and I
don't feel that I quite have my finger on it...)

(How many times have I gone through this before:)
Negative connotation comes from the person who says the words, not from
the words themselves.  Some Jews are nasty bigots, and you will find
nasty bigots in any other large group of people.  These people will use
words for nasty purposes.  This should not taint the words, rather it
should affect your respect for the individuals with the nasty ideals.

I disagree with rjb about "how it works" (see above).  He seems to think
that only rednecks ("his kind") should be free to call him a redneck.
Pray tell, what word should *I* use to describe a person who you'd call
a redneck?  "Redneck" serves a specific purpose for me.  I think
"yankee" would serve as a better example.  You have little reason to call
someone a goy, as I have little reason to call someone a yankee.

Me?  I work with goyim, right here at Masscomp.

	Andy Tannenbaum   Masscomp Inc  Westford MA   (617) 692-6200 x274