Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site ut-sally.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!decvax!harpo!seismo!ut-sally!jsq From: jsq@ut-sally.UUCP (John Quarterman) Newsgroups: net.women Subject: Re: Rape by Women?!?!? - (nf) Message-ID: <999@ut-sally.UUCP> Date: Sat, 25-Feb-84 17:57:02 EST Article-I.D.: ut-sally.999 Posted: Sat Feb 25 17:57:02 1984 Date-Received: Sun, 26-Feb-84 04:58:01 EST References: <907@inmet.UUCP> Organization: U. Texas CS Dept., Austin, Texas Lines: 124 I've already corresponded with Beth about this in mail, and she's already posted a followup saying she posted the article I quote from below as an emotional reaction, so this is not so much a reply to her as yet another attempt to state what seems to me to be an obvious position in such a way that it won't be misunderstood. From mazur@inmet.UUCP Fri Feb 17 22:57:18 1984 Subject: Rape by Women?!?!? - (nf) Message-ID: <907@inmet.UUCP> CYNICAL MODE ON ***> Here is a simple test for both men and women that will let you know which is your greatest risk: rape by a woman, or being struck by lightning. 1. Do you golf in thunderstorms? 2. Is your house on top of the highest point of land for miles? 3. Do you leave your TV (and $500 antenna) plugged in during storms? 4. Do you practice your baton in electrical fields? 5. Do you frequently date women on roller derby teams? 6. Does your date remind you of Patti Smith? 7. Do you know women who look like the East German track team? 8. Do you have trouble bench-pressing your own weight? If you have more yes answers to questions 1-4 than you do to questions 5-8, wear rubber-bottomed shoes. If the reverse is true, get help; you are a prime target for rape by women. CYNICAL MODE HALF ON ***> OK, it is possible for a woman to rape a man, and a woman to rape a woman. It's probably even happened 10 or 20 times. How about: 1. If you were approached by a woman carrying a gun, would you do what she said? 2. If you were surprised by several armed women, would you do what they said? 3. If a woman put a knife to your balls and said "get it up or lose it," would you? If you answered no to 1 or 2, we don't have to worry about you, as you are probably either dead or in the hospital. If you answered no to 3, you don't know how your own body would react: it's amazing what the hindbrain will do to save the genitals. 10 or 20 times? Sorry, more than that. No, I can't locate a reference, yes, I'm looking for it, and yes, I'll post it when I find it. The point of my original comment about references that seems to be what set this off was that the old common knowledge that a woman could not rape a man and that anything that sounded like it was just violent seduction is *not true*! Assuming that it's only happened a miniscule number of times is to pile the same crap on the victims as has been until recently been put upon female victims: "It *must* have been your fault, because everybody knows men are much stronger than women," parallel to "It *must* have been your fault, you must have tempted him beyond his endurance." I was attempting to make a comment on the insistance (in the article I was replying to) on the existance of references for the incidence of rape of women by men, which is so prevalent that one would hope we all know about it, while not bothering to produce *anything* on rape of men by women (a much harder thing to document) to be specious. To trivialize male rape victims because they are rarer is reprehensible. (Disclaimer: the previous sentence is not aimed at any specific person but is included as an extension of the argument to make a point.) Anybody who thinks a woman is not dangerous simply because she is a woman is a fool. What I'd like to know is, how many of you park your cars in brightly lit lots because you are afraid a woman is going to grab you and rape you? How many of you don't open your doors when you are alone because you are afraid a woman will force her way in and rape you? How many times have you crossed as street because you saw a shady-looking woman walking on your side of the street? Are you ever worried that that nice girl you just met might expect sex, and force you if you not willing? CYNICAL MODE OFF ***> I agree that women can rape men and women, and that that is as much as a crime as is rape by men. I still think that rape is primarily, mainly, almost always a crime by men. Rape is not a "people" crime, it is a crime committed mostly by men, and occasionally by a violent, aggressive woman. Now all men do not commit rape, and all men do not want to commit rape. I am not saying this to "promote hatred of men". But if you want to know why we, out of frustration, say "why don't you men out there stop raping us", it's probably because we're tired of being told that rape is a crime by people against people, when it's mostly rape of women by men. Go ahead, send flames. I borrowed someone's asbestos gloves... Beth Mazur {ima,harpo,esquire}!inmet!mazur I know why you say that out of frustration; I know about all the fears you list. I agree that many more rapes are committed by men than by women, and I never said otherwise. I claim, however, that by looking *only* at rape of women by men, you will find the basic nature of rape obscured: it is a crime of violence, aggressiveness, and domination, using sex as a means, not an end. If you look at rape of men by women and homosexual rape you can see this more easily. Violence is not limited to men: rape *is* a crime of (disturbed) people against people. If you want to do something about it, you probably want to understand it first, and that is the core of it. *Then* you can start trying to find out why more men commit it than women. Can you not see why I object to you sitting there in your warm, safe, office and posting such an assertion (the original was "The only solution is for you men out there to stop raping us!") as a political statement to an international network? I am not a rapist, and I don't like being accused of being one. I would suspect some of the other 2 billion or so people out there thus implicated might also object, considering that only a small minority of them actually are. Such rhetoric does no good. -- John Quarterman, CS Dept., University of Texas, Austin, Texas jsq@ut-sally.ARPA, jsq@ut-sally.UUCP, {ihnp4,seismo,ctvax}!ut-sally!jsq