Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site masscomp.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!masscomp!trb From: trb@masscomp.UUCP Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish Subject: Fence around the Torah Message-ID: <198@masscomp.UUCP> Date: Mon, 27-Feb-84 19:30:39 EST Article-I.D.: masscomp.198 Posted: Mon Feb 27 19:30:39 1984 Date-Received: Tue, 28-Feb-84 12:40:27 EST References: <121@nwuxd.UUCP> <191@masscomp.UUCP> <713@ihuxq.UUCP> Organization: MASSCOMP, Littleton, MA Lines: 97 ihuxq!amigo2 (John Hobson) pegged me pretty well with his note which I will reproduce in entirety, because I don't feel I could paraphrase it better: Andy Tannenbaum seems to be saying that only the Orthodox form of Judaism is authentic, no others need apply. If you want to live by your own interpretation of Torah, and it is not to be found in the Talmud, then what you are doing is all right, but it is not being Jewish. I know that he apologized for casting aspersions on the Reform movement, but that seems to be exactly what he is doing (and, yes, I don't think that playing a French horn along with a shofar is appropriate on Rosh Hoshana either). So tell me, Andy, what about those people who think that the "fence around the Torah" is too high and too enclosing? Are they being authentic Jews? This opens a subject which I'd really like to talk about. On the other hand, we must be careful, let me explain: At the basis of this problem is the question "What is a Jew?" and the discussion about that can quickly degenerate into a quagmire, like the answers to the questions "What is life?" and "What is reality?" I grew up as a yeshiva student through grade school: not what I'd call a complete Jewish education, but certainly a sizable basis. I do not deny Judaism, I don't say that it's bad or wrong. Over the years, due to my family's influences and of course, my decisions, I have chosen to not adhere to some of the Jewish laws. I don't do so saying "I think Judaism should allow us to to eat in Chinatown," I just say that I'm going to do it, and not follow the Jewish law. I don't say that it's acceptable Judaism or that it doesn't matter because those laws are archaic anyway! This is what I despise about the Reform movement! They just hack up Judaism for their own convenience and then grant the resulting mess their stamp of approval. It's disgusting. As Jews, as members of today's American society, primarily, as individuals in a free society, we each have the choice of what path to follow. Where John paraphrases me above about "what you are doing is all right, but it is not being Jewish," I am saying it's alright by me because I'm not your judge, and I don't care to be. There are Jews who worry about the way other Jews practice their religion; a Rabbi who leads his congregation has an obligation to ensure that he guides them to practice properly, his obligation is still as a teacher and not usually as a judge. I make absolutely no claim to be a rabbi, but I hope I can cast some light, and if I make an error while carrying some of the burden of casting the light, I trust that someone in the community who reads this note (a sort of virtual rabbi) will set us all straight. (I figure that I can do the mundane Jewish hacking here, and leave the bug fixes, if needed, to a Judaism guru, ok?) I know many Chasidim (a radically observant sect of Jews) who claim to follow the Torah to the letter. These Chasidim (like any other group) are not all good and beautiful people. I guess what I'm saying here is that following the letter of the Torah is not quite enough. Just eating kosher food is not the same as having a healthy diet. Following the Torah as Chasidim follow it does not necessarily lead to treating all people with proper equality and compassion (for example). Some Chasidim are inconsiderate, wiley creatures, like some members of any group. They tend to be even more eccentric than most groups, as they are a radical group. (Just my saying this would have some Jews gasping, saying "He should talk about Jews like this in front of non-Jews?!" - those are the ones I'm talking about.) Some Jews are in the class that John Hobson talks about when he refers to putting a fence around the Torah. Other Jews are not, they literally take the Torah to the streets. As I discussed in previous notes in this group, I don't accept Judaism-as-it-is-practiced-today, a concept totally separate from "I don't accept Judaism," mind you. What I'd like to see is a respect for the laws of Judaism and the Torah as they are, coupled with a modern and compassionate outlook on being Jews in an integrated world. There are awfully few people who practice this way, I know that I fall short. Some Orthodox Jews, mostly outside of Chasidism from my experience, have done a good job of integrating their Judaism into the modern world, but in most all cases, they tend to be arrogant (even bigoted) with regard to non-Jews and even to less-religious-Jews, and that's something I find disgusting. I am weak in the areas of observance, when it comes to eating kosher and not working on Shabbos, I haven't realized the need to do those things. To answer John Hobson's question more directly, but not completely so, I think that every Jew is an authentic Jew, every Jew who practices Judaism as he thinks is proper is an authentic Jew. I don't see a fence around the Torah. The Torah belongs to every Jew as much as it belongs to the certain surly introverted Chasidim who seem to want the Torah all to themselves. The Torah cannot be enclosed by a fence, we should not try to restrict it and I disagree with people who seem to try to do so. On the other hand, I don't think that the Torah needs dilution or edition in order to make it usable as a light to live by. I've detailed above some ideas that I think are important about the practice of Judaism. I look forward to hearing ideas from the rest of you. Andy Tannenbaum Masscomp Inc Westford MA (617) 692-6200 x274