Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site ut-sally.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!floyd!harpo!seismo!ut-sally!jsq From: jsq@ut-sally.UUCP (John Quarterman) Newsgroups: net.women Subject: Re: Rape by Women?!?!? - (nf) Message-ID: <1063@ut-sally.UUCP> Date: Thu, 1-Mar-84 11:17:21 EST Article-I.D.: ut-sally.1063 Posted: Thu Mar 1 11:17:21 1984 Date-Received: Sat, 3-Mar-84 07:20:03 EST References: <5888@uiucdcs.UUCP> Organization: U. Texas CS Dept., Austin, Texas Lines: 79 I have a nominee here for best missing-of-the-point on USENET this week (though I admit I don't read net.politics): From wombat@uicsl.UUCP Sun Feb 26 21:52:49 1984 From: wombat@uicsl.UUCP Message-ID: <5888@uiucdcs.UUCP> It looks to me like Beth Mazur is more interested in looking at the aspect of rape that is more likely to affect her personally (i.e., rape of women by men) and John Quarterman would prefer to include the larger problem, which would be more likely to affect him (rape of people by people). If Mazur wants to limit her attention to one (and by far the larger) part of the problem, that's her business. She may not be personally interested in solving the problems of men in the way she is interested in solving the problem that she herself may be attacked by some crazy, violent man. If she tries to defend statements like "The only solution is for you men out there to stop raping us!" on a public network as a valid political contribution to the problem, she has made it not just her business but mine as well. If Quarterman wants something done about people attacking other people, he should do something. Complaining that women aren't taking an interest in his (mostly male) part of the problem isn't going to help anything. His calling this a "people" problem is just a way of including himself as a potential (but very unlikely) victim; maybe he feels left out? Women have felt left out of a whole lot of things. Nobody promised life would be fair. Wombat ihnp4!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat Yeah, sure. I'm just *dying* to be violently attacked. And if you ever get raped it'll be because you wanted it, no doubt. Besides, women *should* pay attention only to problems that directly affect them, and men *should* pay attention only to problems that directly affect them: separate but equal worked so well for race problems, why not for sex-related ones? In particular, no men should pay attention to women being raped, because men are not being directly threatened. (Note to those who can't recognize sarcasm when they see it: this paragraph is an example.) My points were (summarized): "Many men" is not the same as "all men:" there is a qualitative difference. Rape is not as simple as "men rape women," and you'll never understand it by just looking at that part of it. In any case, if you present statements like "the problem is men (unqualified) rape women" as legitimate political statements, you might as well expect objections, because some men don't like being accused of rape. Furthermore, that sort of rhetoric contributes nothing to solving the problem. You may well not agree with me, but you could at least consider that I might mean what I write. At this point I think I have said all I have to say in news on the subject: you may refuse to understand if you like. Though I will leave you with an argument parallel in *form* (not *content*, flamers) to the ones I've seen lately on net.women about rape: Some women are prostitutes. Many women would perform sex for money if offered enough money and promised anonymity. Therefore all women are (at least potentially) prostitutes. Saying that some men are prostitutes or that not all women are prostitutes is clearly irrelevant to the problem of prostitution. (Historical note: this ridiculous "all women are prostitutes" argument was common about fifteen years ago and some people actually took it seriously.) I don't defend this argument either: it's exactly as specious as the one that men raping women is all there is to rape. -- John Quarterman, CS Dept., University of Texas, Austin, Texas jsq@ut-sally.ARPA, jsq@ut-sally.UUCP, {ihnp4,seismo,ctvax}!ut-sally!jsq