Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site ut-sally.UUCP
Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!floyd!harpo!seismo!ut-sally!jsq
From: jsq@ut-sally.UUCP (John Quarterman)
Newsgroups: net.women
Subject: Re: Rape by Women?!?!? - (nf)
Message-ID: <1063@ut-sally.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 1-Mar-84 11:17:21 EST
Article-I.D.: ut-sally.1063
Posted: Thu Mar  1 11:17:21 1984
Date-Received: Sat, 3-Mar-84 07:20:03 EST
References: <5888@uiucdcs.UUCP>
Organization: U. Texas CS Dept., Austin, Texas
Lines: 79

I have a nominee here for best missing-of-the-point on USENET this week
(though I admit I don't read net.politics):

	From wombat@uicsl.UUCP Sun Feb 26 21:52:49 1984
	From: wombat@uicsl.UUCP
	Message-ID: <5888@uiucdcs.UUCP>

	It looks to me like Beth Mazur is more interested in looking at the
	aspect of rape that is more likely to affect her personally (i.e., rape
	of women by men) and John Quarterman would prefer to include the larger
	problem, which would be more likely to affect him (rape of people by
	people). If Mazur wants to limit her attention to one (and by
	far the larger) part of the problem, that's her business. She may not
	be personally interested in solving the problems of men in the way
	she is interested in solving the problem that she herself may be
	attacked by some crazy, violent man.

If she tries to defend statements like "The only solution is for you men
out there to stop raping us!" on a public network as a valid political
contribution to the problem, she has made it not just her business but
mine as well.

	If Quarterman wants something done about people attacking other
	people, he should do something.  Complaining that women aren't
	taking an interest in his (mostly male) part of the problem
	isn't going to help anything. His calling this a "people"
	problem is just a way of including himself as a potential (but
	very unlikely) victim; maybe he feels left out?  Women have
	felt left out of a whole lot of things. Nobody promised
	life would be fair.
						Wombat
						ihnp4!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat

Yeah, sure.  I'm just *dying* to be violently attacked.  And if you ever
get raped it'll be because you wanted it, no doubt.  Besides, women *should*
pay attention only to problems that directly affect them, and men *should*
pay attention only to problems that directly affect them:  separate but
equal worked so well for race problems, why not for sex-related ones?
In particular, no men should pay attention to women being raped, because
men are not being directly threatened.  (Note to those who can't recognize
sarcasm when they see it:  this paragraph is an example.)

My points were (summarized):

	"Many men" is not the same as "all men:" there is a qualitative
	difference.

	Rape is not as simple as "men rape women," and you'll never understand
	it by just looking at that part of it.

	In any case, if you present statements like "the problem is
	men (unqualified) rape women" as legitimate political statements,
	you might as well expect objections, because some men don't like
	being accused of rape.  Furthermore, that sort of rhetoric
	contributes nothing to solving the problem.

You may well not agree with me, but you could at least consider that
I might mean what I write.  At this point I think I have said all I have
to say in news on the subject:  you may refuse to understand if you like.

Though I will leave you with an argument parallel in *form* (not *content*,
flamers) to the ones I've seen lately on net.women about rape:

	Some women are prostitutes.
	Many women would perform sex for money if offered enough money
	and promised anonymity.
	Therefore all women are (at least potentially) prostitutes.
	Saying that some men are prostitutes or that not all women are
	prostitutes is clearly irrelevant to the problem of prostitution.

(Historical note:  this ridiculous "all women are prostitutes" argument
was common about fifteen years ago and some people actually took it
seriously.)

I don't defend this argument either:  it's exactly as specious as the one
that men raping women is all there is to rape.
-- 
John Quarterman, CS Dept., University of Texas, Austin, Texas
jsq@ut-sally.ARPA, jsq@ut-sally.UUCP, {ihnp4,seismo,ctvax}!ut-sally!jsq