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From: smb@ulysses.UUCP (Steven Bellovin)
Newsgroups: net.religion,net.politics
Subject: Re: church and state and holidays
Message-ID: <805@ulysses.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 21-Mar-84 20:38:12 EST
Article-I.D.: ulysses.805
Posted: Wed Mar 21 20:38:12 1984
Date-Received: Thu, 22-Mar-84 04:00:26 EST
References: <1500@ut-sally.UUCP>
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill
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	From: riddle@ut-sally.UUCP (Prentiss Riddle)
	Newsgroups: net.religion, net.politics
	Subject: Re: church and state and holidays
	Message-ID: <1500@ut-sally.UUCP>
	Date: Mon, 19-Mar-84 11:06:02 EST

	Here's my opinion, for what it's worth: although both Christmas and
	Thanksgiving originated as religious holidays and still hold deeply-
	felt religious meaning for many people, they are, in practice, as much
	secular holidays and religious ones.  I'm a second-generation atheist
	(remember me?) and my family always celebrated both; so did most of my
	Jewish friends when I was in elementary school...

I do not know of any practicing Jews who celebrate Christmas.  Granted,
I rarely go to work on December 25, but there's usually little to do.
(Though it's a *great* day to get machine time....)  I'll take any days
off they choose to give me.

Thanksgiving strikes me as a different situation entirely.  At most it's
a theistic holiday -- give thanks to the deity of your choice.  That it
was instituted by a group of Christians doesn't affect that.  Christmas,
though, is the celebration of the birth of one group's savior -- and a
nativity scene is the symbol of exactly that aspect.  *That's* why I object
to creches on public property -- because there's no meaning other than
religious.

The problem, I think, is that America is culturally Christian.  I'm not
saying that this is bad, and I'm certainly not saying that one should oppose
this -- I don't think that that's even possible.  But there's often a fine
line between the religious aspects of a holiday -- i.e., nativity scenes --
and the secularized aspects, such as lights and reindeer.  (Probably the
line is constantly moving.)  I won't display symbols of a Christian holiday
(there are no Christmas lights on my house, nor any Santas, etc.), but
their presence in a state-supported setting is much less offensive to me.

I don't think most Christian or Chistian-descended Americans realize how
hard it can be for a Jew to retain his or her identity.  A few years ago,
I was giving a friend a ride to a party.  We weren't certain exactly which
house we were heading to, and my friend pointed to one that was obviously
hosting *some* party.  I explained that that couldn't be the house we were
looking for, since it was festooned with Christmas lights, and Larry, being
Jewish, wouldn't do that.  She absolutely did not understand why it should
matter.  (Btw -- that friend is out there in USENET land right now, though
I don't know if she reads this group....)  If you don't understand either,
you probably don't understand why a municipal creche is offensive.

		--Steve Bellovin