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From: laura@utzoo.UUCP (Laura Creighton)
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Re: Welcome back, Laura (plus argument!)
Message-ID: <3601@utzoo.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 6-Mar-84 02:26:39 EST
Article-I.D.: utzoo.3601
Posted: Tue Mar  6 02:26:39 1984
Date-Received: Tue, 6-Mar-84 02:26:39 EST
References: <869@ssc-vax.UUCP>
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 154

Hello Dave,

	Guess what? You missed the 2 points of my argument that I
was trying to present clearly, and got the stuff that I was worried
was not very clear. This is depressing. It is difficult to argue
when what you think is clear is obscure and what you  find obscure
your opponent finds clear. Oh well. Back to the drawing board.

1. God is in Time

Proof:

	Assume God is not in Time. Therfore all temporal actions
	are closed to him. (Note: I am not here saying that God
	cannot be outside of Time and also inside Time,  as long as the "outside of Time"
	is a superset of "inside of Time", what I am saying is
	that God must be capable of being inside of Time.

	All forms of communication are temporal actions. You send
	bits of information, either from here to there (space --
	and remember that we are living in space-time) and the
	information conveyed can be expressed in the change of states
	which must be measured with respect to time, since change is

	dx/dt: the measurement of dispacement in something with respect
	to time.

	Thus God, as assumed, not in Time cannot communicate his
	existence to us.

BUT:

	By definition, all that exists must communicate its existence
	to us, or be capable of doing so. This is the only way we have
	of knowing that something exists -- by sensing its attempt to
	communicate with us. (This does not imply language. Chairs
	communicate their existence to us by being there are presenting
	sense impressions which are basic communication.) Thus, if
	God is incapable of communicating his existence to us, he
	*does not exist*. 

THEREFORE: If God exists, he must exist in Time.

2. Historical Perspective

Accepting Christianity, you have a very concrete example of God
communicating himself to us: Becoming a human being and walking
around talking is pretty drastic stuff in the communication games.
Thus if you want to say that God does not exist in Time you must
renounce Christianity, something which I don't think that you
(Dave) are willing to do.

3. Assuming God Exists, is he rational?

I am already going to assume for te purpose of argument that God exists.
Okay. Therefore when I say "Hey God, I am going to raise either my
left hand or my right -- which one?" it is necessary to assume that
it is possible for God to answer my question. (If not, this is a
pretty feeble sort of omnipotence we have here.) Okay. Assume God
shouts down "Right". Now I raise one hand.

	If I raise my left hand, then God has made a mistake.
	(God doesn't lie. That is for Smullyan!) But if God
	is omniscient, ten he cannot make mistakes. He cannot
	be wrong. Therefore *this can never happen*.

Okay. So it is clear that I must raise my right hand. Now, the next question
is: how does God know which hand I am going to raise?

There are two main answers to this. The first goes:

	God knows me so well (say he looks into my soul) that he
	*knows* what I will do.

Okay. Now, from perspective, it doesn't matter if God looks at my soul,
at my brain-chemistry, or knows all of my past and sees how I have been
conditioned to behave. The basic assumption, is that I have a reason
for what I do and God can see the reason and thus predict what I do.

At first glance, this doesn't seem too bad. After all, I generally
assume that I have reasons for what I do. However, there is an
important difference here. For example: If any of you were here
watching me type this you would notice a curious fact. I am doing
all the typing with my left hand. This curious fact becomes less curious
when I explain to you that 20 minutes ago I tried to make myself a cup
of coffee and overfilled the kettle, sothat when I picked it up to
pour myself a cup it spilled onto my right hand and scalded me a bit.
The old right hand is feeling rather tender right now, so I am not
typing with it. This had direct bearing on which hand I raised -- I
raised my right hand so that I could keep typing with my left.

Okay. A human being could make the prediction that I would raise my
right hand. He would have been right. (The important thing to remember is
that he could have predicted that I would raise my left hand, perhaps
to be difficult, and have been wrong, and nobody would have found
it astonishing/impossible. It is God who is constrained to never be
wrong (know a falsehood) not man.) Thus it is not unreasonable to assume
that God could have made a similar prediction.

HERE IS WHERE THE CRUNCH COMES:

	God, however, could have made that prediction 10,000 years ago.
Thus, if God *knew* because he had a reason (including that he can 
"see" the future, a rather good reason, but my main consideration is 
that he can look into my brain/soul/past life (lives?) and thus
predict th future perfectly) then all the events from the point where
God could *know* what was going to happen (historically called
"the Beginning of Time" since God was always all-knowing) must have
arisen as they did soince otherwise God would be *wrong* and there
must be a reason for my action which God can perceive.

Therfore, the reason for my action cannot be my "free will" since
the premise of free will is not that "had th conditions in my
brain/soul/environment been different then i would be different"
(called soft determinism, for those of you who like technical names)
but that given the exact same conditions in my brain/soul/environment
I could have done differently than I did. 

But then, God could not know what I would chose to do, because my
free will would not be determined by anything that God can view --
God would have to answer "I don't know -- you will do whatever you
will chose to do" which is counter to omniscience.

*	*	*	*

Okay. Here is the oter answer to "how does God know?". We assume that
Gpd does not know because he can view something and make reasoned
conclusions about it. God is not reasonable. God just knows out of the
essense of God.

Okay, but this too invalidates free will. The essense of God becomes
that which continually keeps the universe going "the universe is
continually being created" sine teh determination of all activities
flows out of God's being. Events could be entirely irrational and
unreasonable (I could turn into a streetcar right  now and fly
to North Carolina) sine there is no constraint that says the
universe *has* to be reasonable. (Just that, barring miracles,
God has kept it pretty reasonable so far...). Again, though, I
have no "free will". The past present and future flow out of God's
being, not my free decisions.

I lose either way.

this business of "losing either way" is called fatalism. The 
first way (there are reasons for everythin I do, and no event
is not caused by anoter prior event) is called determinism. The
second way (everything is random) is not determinism, but is
still fatalism.

-- 

Laura Creighton 
utzoo!laura