Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1+some 2/3/84; site dual.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!we13!ihnp4!dual!mats From: mats@dual.UUCP (Mats Wichmann) Newsgroups: net.micro Subject: Re: IBM vs VAX/unix Message-ID: <371@dual.UUCP> Date: Tue, 20-Mar-84 10:45:17 EST Article-I.D.: dual.371 Posted: Tue Mar 20 10:45:17 1984 Date-Received: Wed, 21-Mar-84 02:44:09 EST References: <17659@sri-arpa.UUCP> Organization: Dual Systems, Berkeley, CA Lines: 75 In the midst of this topic I want to toss in another tidbit. UC Berkeley was just given a rather large grant from IBM, which will take the form of a s**t load of PC's. Nobody quite knows what the disposition will be yet; everything is still in the formative stages. *BUT*, the Physics Depart- ment has been using the University's computing facilities the past few years because they have never gotten the money to replace their old IBM 1620 (yes, you read that right!!!); now it looks like they will never get their own machine because people are starting to say "why should we buy a large expensive machine, when we can get everybody a PC for their desk". The PC clearly does NOT meet the needs of large number crunching applications that physicists and astronomers, to name two groups, are likely to perform. But becuase of the easy availability of the PC's, it looks like they may not be able to get funding for a machine to do these sorts of things. The problem here seems to be that the sort of hype surrounding the PC, and other similar machines, is creating a blindness amongst the decision-makers (who are typically NOT computer users to any great degree) to the total needs to their computing environment. By all means, use a PC if it is appropriate for your needs, but let's not completely ingnore the need for larger computational machines as well. Another perspective is my own. When I was a student, competition for the computing facilities at UC was fierce (although not quite as bad as it is today). All undergraduate classes were confined to a bunch of PDP 11-70's, only one of which belonged to the CS dept. outright. The purpose was to provide a programming environment for testing out certain concepts being taught in the classes. This environment could be provided by a micro of the ilk of an IBM PC. Basically, what I needed for COURSE work was the pascal interpreter/compiler, a c compiler, editor, and a couple of other utilities (program beautifiers, printer spooler). Most of what I learned about UNIX, and what made me employable as I came out of college, was done on my own time, by browsing through the system and trying various things out. Trying to put each student on an individual machine almost eliminates this aspect - which is there for anyone who cares to use it right now. With a small disk on the system, the amount of stuff that can be stored permanently is quite limited. I had the opportunity to browse through those portions of several huge disks which were not protected - and managed to learn quite a bit from that. I would not want to give this up. I don't really object to some of the load being offloaded onto smaller machines, but not the entire curriculum. And the lower-level the machine, the less the value to the student. Thinl of it this way - most of you are involved with the UNIX system in some way or another. If it were your decision to hire, say four years from now when the current batch of undergrads have finished college, a programmer who had done all of his course work on one machine only, what would look more attractive: 1) Apple II 2) IBM PC Running MS/DOS 3) IBM PC running PC/UX 4) 68000-based machine with UNIX System V or BSD 4.2 5) VAX 11/780 MY contention is that the Apple is already obsolete, and the technology of the PC is already very near to it. The 68000 or the VAX, on the other hand, present lots of interesting features, that even if nobody is building those particular machines any more, would seem to me to bode well to picking up whatever the current technology is. Four years from now, probably all of those machines will be near obsolete. Okay, just my opinion, but certainly grounds for some thought, isn't it??? If it were my decision, the only way I would put students on something like the PC would be if they were truly well networked together with some bigger machines, such as Vaxen, so that the resources were there for those who needed/wnated them. Mats Wichmann Dual Systems Corp. ...{ucbvax,amd70,ihnp4,cbosgd,decwrl,fortune}!dual!mats It now became apparent (despite the lack of library paste) that something had happened to the vicar; [ Edward Gorey ]