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From: jsq@ut-sally.UUCP (John Quarterman)
Newsgroups: net.women
Subject: Re: Rape by Women?!?!? - (nf)
Message-ID: <999@ut-sally.UUCP>
Date: Sat, 25-Feb-84 17:57:02 EST
Article-I.D.: ut-sally.999
Posted: Sat Feb 25 17:57:02 1984
Date-Received: Sun, 26-Feb-84 04:58:01 EST
References: <907@inmet.UUCP>
Organization: U. Texas CS Dept., Austin, Texas
Lines: 124

I've already corresponded with Beth about this in mail, and she's
already posted a followup saying she posted the article I quote
from below as an emotional reaction, so this is not so much a reply
to her as yet another attempt to state what seems to me to be an
obvious position in such a way that it won't be misunderstood.

	From mazur@inmet.UUCP Fri Feb 17 22:57:18 1984
	Subject: Rape by Women?!?!? - (nf)
	Message-ID: <907@inmet.UUCP>
	
	CYNICAL MODE ON ***>
	
	Here is a simple test for both men and women that will let you
	know which is your greatest risk: rape by a woman, or being
	struck by lightning.
	
	  1.  Do you golf in thunderstorms?
	  2.  Is your house on top of the highest point of land for miles?
	  3.  Do you leave your TV (and $500 antenna) plugged in during storms?
	  4.  Do you practice your baton in electrical fields?
	  
	  5.  Do you frequently date women on roller derby teams?
	  6.  Does your date remind you of Patti Smith?
	  7.  Do you know women who look like the East German track team?
	  8.  Do you have trouble bench-pressing your own weight?
	
	If you have more yes answers to questions 1-4 than you do to questions
	5-8, wear rubber-bottomed shoes.  If the reverse is true, get help; 
	you are a prime target for rape by women.
	
	CYNICAL MODE HALF ON ***>
	
	OK, it is possible for a woman to rape a man, and a woman to rape a
	woman.  It's probably even happened 10 or 20 times.

How about:
1. If you were approached by a woman carrying a gun,
	would you do what she said?
2. If you were surprised by several armed women,
	would you do what they said?
3. If a woman put a knife to your balls and said
	"get it up or lose it," would you?

If you answered no to 1 or 2, we don't have to worry about you, as you
are probably either dead or in the hospital.  If you answered no to 3,
you don't know how your own body would react:  it's amazing what the
hindbrain will do to save the genitals.

10 or 20 times?  Sorry, more than that.  No, I can't locate a reference,
yes, I'm looking for it, and yes, I'll post it when I find it.

The point of my original comment about references that seems to be what
set this off was that the old common knowledge that a woman could not
rape a man and that anything that sounded like it was just violent
seduction is *not true*!  Assuming that it's only happened a miniscule
number of times is to pile the same crap on the victims as has been
until recently been put upon female victims:  "It *must* have been
your fault, because everybody knows men are much stronger than women,"
parallel to "It *must* have been your fault, you must have tempted him
beyond his endurance."

I was attempting to make a comment on the insistance (in the article
I was replying to) on the existance of references for the incidence
of rape of women by men, which is so prevalent that one would hope
we all know about it, while not bothering to produce *anything* on
rape of men by women (a much harder thing to document) to be specious.
To trivialize male rape victims because they are rarer is reprehensible.
(Disclaimer:  the previous sentence is not aimed at any specific person
but is included as an extension of the argument to make a point.)

Anybody who thinks a woman is not dangerous simply because she is a
woman is a fool.

	What I'd like to know is, how many of you park your cars in
	brightly lit lots because you are afraid a woman is going to
	grab you and rape you?  How many of you don't open your doors
	when you are alone because you are afraid a woman will force
	her way in and rape you?  How many times have you crossed as
	street because you saw a shady-looking woman walking on your
	side of the street?  Are you ever worried that that nice girl
	you just met might expect sex, and force you if you not
	willing?
	
	CYNICAL MODE OFF ***>
	
	I agree that women can rape men and women, and that that is as
	much as a crime as is rape by men.  I still think that rape is
	primarily, mainly, almost always a crime by men.  Rape is not a
	"people" crime, it is a crime committed mostly by men, and
	occasionally by a violent, aggressive woman.

	Now all men do not commit rape, and all men do not want to
	commit rape.  I am not saying this to "promote hatred of men".
	But if you want to know why we, out of frustration, say "why
	don't you men out there stop raping us", it's probably because
	we're tired of being told that rape is a crime by people
	against people, when it's mostly rape of women by men.

	Go ahead, send flames.  I borrowed someone's asbestos
	gloves...  Beth Mazur {ima,harpo,esquire}!inmet!mazur

I know why you say that out of frustration; I know about all the fears
you list.  I agree that many more rapes are committed by men than by
women, and I never said otherwise.  I claim, however, that by looking
*only* at rape of women by men, you will find the basic nature of rape
obscured:  it is a crime of violence, aggressiveness, and domination,
using sex as a means, not an end.  If you look at rape of men by women
and homosexual rape you can see this more easily.  Violence is not
limited to men:  rape *is* a crime of (disturbed) people against people.
If you want to do something about it, you probably want to understand it
first, and that is the core of it.  *Then* you can start trying to find
out why more men commit it than women.

Can you not see why I object to you sitting there in your warm, safe,
office and posting such an assertion (the original was "The only
solution is for you men out there to stop raping us!") as a political
statement to an international network?  I am not a rapist, and I don't
like being accused of being one.  I would suspect some of the other
2 billion or so people out there thus implicated might also object,
considering that only a small minority of them actually are.  Such
rhetoric does no good.
-- 
John Quarterman, CS Dept., University of Texas, Austin, Texas
jsq@ut-sally.ARPA, jsq@ut-sally.UUCP, {ihnp4,seismo,ctvax}!ut-sally!jsq