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From: henry@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer)
Newsgroups: net.micro,net.research,net.cse
Subject: Re: First Summary of PC's in Education Survey
Message-ID: <3619@utzoo.UUCP>
Date: Sat, 10-Mar-84 20:37:57 EST
Article-I.D.: utzoo.3619
Posted: Sat Mar 10 20:37:57 1984
Date-Received: Sat, 10-Mar-84 20:37:57 EST
References: <3604@utzoo.UUCP>, <3466@utcsrgv.UUCP>, <3611@utzoo.UUCP>, <3475@utcsrgv.UUCP>
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 105


Steve Perelgut counters with:

   ...I advocate 8088 based technology because it is there.  The reason I
    don't advocate MS-BASIC is that we can do better now....

And we can most assuredly do better than the 8088.  Even stipulating that
we couldn't, this would NOT be an argument for buying 8088's now; it would
be an argument for postponing purchases until we could get equipment with
reasonable characteristics and a reasonable useful life.

    ..........I would design my teaching environment based on a 16032 with
    all 7 M's.  However:    it isn't available in any quantity
			    it isn't tested (and no university is going to buy
				a pig in a poke no matter how pretty it is.)
			    it would cost both arms, one leg, and the other leg
				up to the second joint

If you are willing to settle for a 68000 instead of a 16032 (I know, this
is a poor deal, but it's not too visible from high-level languages), it is
available, in quantity, tested, right now.  True, it's expensive.  The
price can come down a lot if you're willing to settle for something that
doesn't meet the 7M specs but nevertheless comes lots closer.  Also, the
prices keep dropping.  I would not call the Macintosh "both arms, one leg,
and the other leg up to the second joint"; more like half an arm.  Also
remember:  "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch".  If we want a
decent teaching environment, as opposed to a half-obsolete one, it may
cost some money.  Punchcards are real cheap, but we appear to have finally
decided that they are no bargain.  The general lesson does not seem to
have sunk in, though.

   ...I advocate IBM PC's because they are here, they have upper management
    support, and we have one to play with NOW.  Not next week or next year
    or whenever.

They indeed are here now.  So are better things.  I know people who have
Macintoshes to play with right now -- Toronto-area people with no special
"in" at Apple.  True, it took a bit of effort; they think it was worth it.
As for "upper management support"...  [long string of expletives deleted].
If upper management is making a colossal mistake, it is your *DUTY* to
tell them so, attempt to convince them, and resign if it doesn't work.
I am prepared to do exactly this if *my* management makes a sufficiently
large mistake; fortunately, this does not seem likely.

   ...I realize that 16-bits isn't enough to write the worlds largest programs,
    but I seriously doubt any student will suffer from the "limitation" in a
    first computer course.

Of course the students aren't likely to notice.  It will be the instructors
and their programmers who will notice, as soon as the teaching environment
starts to shift towards really *using* the new technology.  Incidentally,
I haven't heard any provision for giving the upper-year students anything
better.  You know as well as I do that if 8088s are the official U of T
teaching environment, they'll be stuck with them too.  (Barring the few
lucky courses that have access to something better.)

   ..."Animated algorithms" may be the wave of the future, but there is no 
    support here, now.  Would anyone recommend that we wait until the future is
    here?  ...

No, we're supposed to be trying to MAKE the future happen, not just sitting
waiting for it to hit us in the eye.  Which it will if we buy 8088s.  It is
the duty of people who are making decisions to try to avoid doing things
in ways that are short-term wins but long-term disasters.  Nobody ever said
that it would be easy.

   I would rather do something than sit and wait for something better.

So we are supposed to sit with our 8088s and wait for something better
to magically appear?

    There is always something better on the horizon.  After the 68000's are the
    16000's.  And then the next generations.  Etc.  I don't wanna wait.  I want
    to start conversion now.

Of course.  But it is nevertheless possible to pick equipment that is not
going to be cripplingly obsolete in a few years, especially when we are
talking about something that may well represent a long-term commitment to a
specific teaching machine.

   The U. of T. is grossly underfunded.  When there is a commitment to pursue
    some project, turning it down is suicide.  If we look too far into the
    future, we will miss the present boat.

Believe me, I know about U of T's funding.  I refer you back to my previous
comments about trying to make things happen rather than just accepting a
rotten situation, and about the possibility of waiting in order to get
decent equipment.  Even if it meant getting only half as many (say)
Macintoshes (an assumption I think implausible -- fewer, maybe, but not
that big a difference), that would still be a better investment.  Buying
by the lowest bidder makes sense only if the products offered are roughly
equivalent in functionality.  Not so here.

Sorry if some of the above seems harsh.  I really do think that an 8088-
based teaching machine would be a disastrous mistake, and that it could
be avoided.  We've had the @&$&%est time trying to get rid of punchcards
here, and I'd prefer not to see a repeat.

P.S. to all the other readers:  I know this is starting to seem like a
personal debate between Steve and myself, but I think the issues are of
sufficiently wide interest to justify continuing to use "f" rather than
"r" for my rebuttals.  Let me know if you disagree.
-- 
				Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
				{allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry