Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 exptools 1/6/84; site ihuxt.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!floyd!harpo!ihnp4!ihuxt!martillo From: martillo@ihuxt.UUCP (Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo) Newsgroups: net.flame Subject: Re: anti-religious flame Message-ID: <347@ihuxt.UUCP> Date: Wed, 21-Mar-84 18:10:54 EST Article-I.D.: ihuxt.347 Posted: Wed Mar 21 18:10:54 1984 Date-Received: Thu, 22-Mar-84 04:18:16 EST References: <1549@stolaf.UUCP>, <1432@mit-eddie.UUCP>, <691@seismo.UUCP> <293@pyuxss.UUCP>, <508@pyuxn.UUCP> Organization: AT&T Bell Labs, Naperville, IL Lines: 49 >> I think the clearest example of Christians (and everyone >> else for that matter) being persecuted is when the Muslims >> invaded Europe. They did a good job of taking over Spain and I >> rather doubt that they tolerated a lot religious diversity. But >> of course, they had their good points too. They brought civilization >> to an area that was pretty backward. > Sharon Badian > >Sorry to disagree, Sharon. The Muslims indeed brought a good deal of >civilization to Spain, and they also brought a good deal of tolerance. >The Muslim controlled Iberian peninsula was the only place in all of >Europe where Jews were given religious and intellectual freedom. Many >great Jewish thinkers came out of this era. Of course, when the re-organized >Christians returned to power, we all remember what they brought with them? > >("I wasn't expecting a kind of Spanish Inquisition...") >-- >TEST > While I have no wish to discuss whether Christians have been persecuted, I am Sefardi, and some inanity about Sefardim has appeared in this discussion. While the Muslims needed the Jews in conquering Spain and in consolidating their hold on Spain, the Muslims treated Jews well. Once the Muslims no longer needed the Jews, the Muslims immediately began to humiliate and degrade the Jewish community as required by Muslim law. (When the Christians needed the Jews during the Reconquista, the Christians also treated the Jews well.) Al-muhhadin (a Muslim group who apparently still exist in Lebanon) at one point wiped out most of the Jewish communities in Muslim Spain. Jewish scholarship was almost nil during the period Muslims treated the Jews well. The golden age of Jewish scholarship took place as the Jewish condition declined. As long as Jews are permitted to live, the quality of Jewish scholarship seems relatively independent of their living conditions. American Jewish scholarship (limudei thorah) of the past 40 years has been of abysmal quality. Maimonides (the Rambam) spent a large part of his life on a boat fleeing Muslim persecution. During the 19th century, Graetz and other academicians willfully distorted the history of the Sefardi (and Ashkenazi) communities for political reasons.