Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site cbscc.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!floyd!harpo!ihnp4!cbosgd!cbscc!pmd From: pmd@cbscc.UUCP (Paul Dubuc) Newsgroups: net.abortion Subject: Re: punishment & abortion (cont.) (moral) Message-ID: <1902@cbscc.UUCP> Date: Mon, 5-Mar-84 17:27:16 EST Article-I.D.: cbscc.1902 Posted: Mon Mar 5 17:27:16 1984 Date-Received: Wed, 7-Mar-84 05:25:46 EST References: <7061@watmath.UUCP> Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus Lines: 80 [from Sophie Quigley:] > In this section, I will refer to "punitive-pregnancy" > groups as groups who are advocating using forced pregnancy > as a punishment for people who have not "behaved" properly. > People of such beliefs are to be found both in the pro-life > and pro-choice groups. ... > ... If the child is given up for > adoption, she will be punished physically by being forced to > stay pregnant against her will. The father will not be pun- > ished. If the child is not given up for adoption, not only > will she be punished during her pregnancy, but she will be > punished afterwards for the next 20 years or so, taking care > of a child she did not want. The father will be punished in > the sense that he will have to support the child finan- > cially, but this is the only legal punishment reserved for > him. ... Sophie, I don't know how you can expect pro-life people to listen to an argument that totally ignores the issue of whether or not the fetus is human and has rights of its own. I do not see this as an issue of "punishment" for those who have not "behaved" properly. People should be able to accept the natural consequences of their behaviour, whether or not its result is what they had intended; especially where the life or death of another human being (the fetus) is concerned. Those using imperfect birth control methods should be able to accept the fact that pregnancy is still a possiblity. Sure, removing abortion as a legal and "safe" alternative will affect the "sexual freedom" of some. But I think that human lives weigh much heavier in the balence than that kind of "freedom". I don't think rape justifies abortion either. This doesn't mean I don't regard rape as a hateful act. I just don't think that killing an innocent fetus is the answer, or even helps the situation. I think it may even compound the problem more than the pregnancy. (But what do I know? I'm a man. Well, I've heard it from plenty of women.) Emotion aside, what real justification is there for making an innocent child bear the brunt of our hate and hurt resulting from rape? I think our efforts are better spent trying to combat the occurence of rape in our society than making abortion part of the supposed solution. The circumstances under which the pregnancy comes about don't make any difference in a consistent pro-life stand. (Although it's possible that the medical condition of the pregnancy might make a difference.) With regard to sexual conduct and abortion, where do you place such groups as "Feminists for Life" who take the position that abortion on demand supports the image of the woman's body as being a "reusable" sex object? (Think about it. It might make sense.) Also, you portray pregnancy and child raising as a burden and "punishment" without regard to the not-so-rare complications of abortion. Are such consequences also to be considered "punishment"? From whom, and for what? If the fetus is a human being with equal rights, then yes the the mother should be "forced" not to kill her child in the womb. (That's another way of looking at it isn't it?) And the father should be "forced" to bear financial responsibility. If that isn't possible, alternatives to abortion can still be worked out. (Yes, it will cost some people some money, but I think it's worth it. I will, and do, contribute willingly). If you still think this to be "punishment", well, you can *call it* whatever you want. If the child is not adopted then the parents are not being punished. No one forced them to keep the child. It sure is hard to let go of your baby after you've seen it, but if you're going to hate taking care of it for the next 20 years, then giving is to a couple who would love to take care of it (there are plenty of those. There's a seven year waiting list in Columbus) is a more responsible decision than "terminating" it. The courts see plenty of justification in taking children away from parents who abuse them because they consider such parents to be irresponsible. (This is only to show that the law does rule on what it considers to be responsible behaviour in parents.) For what crime is the fetus being punished with death? (Trying to keep the issue in focus.) Paul Dubuc