Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site masscomp.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!masscomp!trb From: trb@masscomp.UUCP Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish Subject: Re: Fence around the Torah Message-ID: <200@masscomp.UUCP> Date: Tue, 28-Feb-84 13:30:42 EST Article-I.D.: masscomp.200 Posted: Tue Feb 28 13:30:42 1984 Date-Received: Wed, 29-Feb-84 09:36:43 EST References: <198@masscomp.UUCP> <786@ulysses.UUCP> Organization: MASSCOMP, Littleton, MA Lines: 70 Steve Bellovin claims Andy, I think you're deliberately misusing John's phrase "a fence around the Torah". Surely you know what the rabbis mean by that! (And I assume that John does, since he used quotation marks.) Nah, I was just ignorant. The phrase was vaguely familiar, I must have run across it before, but I didn't grasp the implication that you two had in mind. Seem to me that the fence around the Torah here is much like the fence that makes good neighbors. It protects the Torah and therefore Judaism but also makes it somewhat unaccessible, eh? I don't deliberately misuse other's phrases over netnews, with such a large audience, it's far to easy to get caught - I don't go out of my way to look like a fool, I can look like a fool even without straying from what I feel is the right path. I think that we should make our gentle readers aware of the fact that Jews do not just believe in the Torah (the "Old Testament"), they believe in the Torah and a whole body of associated law. Whereas devout Christians seem to spend much of their time studying the Bible, Jews usually study the Gemarah (usually pronounced "Gemorah," hard G, don't forget), which is a commentary on the Mishnah, both of which comprise the Talmud, which is essentially an extension of the Torah. The Torah itself is pretty inscrutable as a source of law (or history for that matter), the Talmud is inscrutable too, but at least it's possible to find the information you need without guessing if you have sufficient training. It is the Talmud which some say forms the "fence around the Torah." One must realize that the laws of the Talmud are usually not open to debate, as far as mainline Judaism is concerned, you don't have a choice about whether or not you can eat a kid even if you're sure it's not cooked in its mother's milk. Likewise, Byron Howes asked Steve "what about eating eggs with chicken" and Steve said he didn't have an answer to that one. I have an answer to that one. The Talmud says it's ok. That's the answer. Again, these laws are not based on common sense. You may, you must use common sense to interpret the laws which exist, but you cannot use your common sense to decide that the laws as they exist are wrong. This concept has analogs when dealing with modern systems - you need common sense to properly program a computer, but if a computer architecture has what you perceive to be flaws in its design, you can't just reason them away, they exist and you must deal with them. Do I think that the fence around the Torah is too protective? Well, I'd be happy if Judaism was based on the practices of Andrew Tannenbaum. That would be akin to shooting an arrow into a wall and then drawing a target around where it lands, no? Let's say we walked up to a tree. You might ask Is this tree acceptable? How could we make it better? I might answer Well, the trunk isn't quite straight, the bark is a bit beaten up, the foliage isn't well formed. On the other hand, if we performed the necessary improvements, I don't think that would make it a better tree. These attributes in Judaism aren't like bugs in a computer program, they don't make Judaism non-functional, they just make it the way it is. That's kinda how I feel about Judaism and the fence around the Torah. I have to say that I like Judaism the way it is. Andy Tannenbaum Masscomp Inc Westford MA (617) 692-6200 x274 just a hymie from old hymietown