Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site pucc-h Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxl!ihnp4!inuxc!pur-ee!CS-Mordred!Pucc-H:aeq From: aeq@pucc-h (Jeff Sargent) Newsgroups: net.flame Subject: Re: response to anti-religious flame - (nf) Message-ID: <597@pucc-h> Date: Sat, 17-Mar-84 09:50:08 EST Article-I.D.: pucc-h.597 Posted: Sat Mar 17 09:50:08 1984 Date-Received: Sun, 18-Mar-84 08:15:49 EST References: <1695@pur-ee.UUCP> Organization: Purdue University Computing Center Lines: 81 I think I'll leave out 4th-generation comments.... >> Sargent > Ruschak > ...most > religions do not have a logical basis (Logical in the sense that they fit > demonstrable physical facts). Most religion rely on the non-logical basis > of faith. It is true that faith is an essential component of many religions. However, it is not always true that there is no congruence between religious beliefs and physical facts (as witness the niftinesses described in those books I referred to in a previous article). Anyway, it is in a sense a "faith" to believe that there exists nothing but the physical world, and that the only way to find or verify truth is to measure it physically. It sounds a little oxymoronic to speak of a faith in denial, but that's what you seem to have: a faith that there isn't anything but the physical world. You can't prove that by physical-science techniques. >> ....Those who >> think of Richard Simmons as the ultimate psychotherapy just don't know how >> therapeutic it is to be known intimately, known better than they know >> themselves, known including all the hidden dark and ugly spots--and still >> loved! That is what Christ offers. > I was trying to say that, as far as I was concerned, it didn't matter what > you believed in. I think that if you BELIEVE in the power of Richard Simmons > to help you, and prayed to him, etc., you could derive the same benefits. Obviously, we simply disagree. Richard Simmons doesn't provide that healing power of intimate knowledge. > Pardon me, but didn't Jesus lead a fairly normal life (aside from a few > incidents) for most of his life ??? Or was he the only child aroud with > a halo??? True, most of Jesus's first 30 years (as far as we know) were unremarkable; but He did provide a preview of coming attractions at age 12, when he was found in the Temple flooring the elders with his wisdom & knowledge. I suppose what I should have said about Richard Simmons was: Has he ever made the slightest CLAIM of being divine? Jesus made that claim and backed it up. Simmons does neither. >> I broadcast my faith because it has helped me and people I know, so I >> believe it can help others. Why do you attack Christianity? What good do >> you expect to gain, or to help others gain, by attacking something which >> has done good for many people? .... What profit does it give you >> (enjoyment, perhaps?) to wound Christians? > Whenever I see someone erring, in my perception, I will try to tell them > about it, if they will listen. If they tell me to go to hell, fine. If not, > maybe they will not make that error anymore. Each of us thinks the other is erring.... I won't tell you to go to hell. In a sense, you're choosing that yourself by rejecting the One who can bring you to heaven, and even bring a taste of heaven into this life (as He has into mine). > Wow, this sounds like a mature and rational discussion! What > is this doing in net.flame ?????????????????????????????? It has its place here. It may do some good by showing the person who submitted the original anti-religious flame (who presumably reads this group) that there's nothing to prevent religion from being discussed on a sensible, intelligent level. Everyone gets angry now and then, but carrying chronic anger, as hscvax!partridge (the original submitter) seems to do, can only be destructive. (I know; I carried lots of anger--enough to be obvious to anyone who knew me at all well--for much of my life; I don't think it's all gone even yet. But a lot of it is gone, thanks again to the "ultimate psychotherapy".) I think we've wrung about as much out of this discussion as we're likely to, but if you disagree, by all means go ahead and submit another article.... -- -- Jeff Sargent {allegra|ihnp4|decvax|harpo|seismo|ucbvax}!pur-ee!pucc-h:aeq Buy some gefiltefish for your aquarium.