Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site pucc-h Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!floyd!harpo!ihnp4!inuxc!pur-ee!CS-Mordred!Pucc-H:aeq From: aeq@pucc-h (Jeff Sargent) Newsgroups: net.flame,net.religion Subject: Re: evidence for the non-existence of God Message-ID: <606@pucc-h> Date: Thu, 22-Mar-84 09:23:38 EST Article-I.D.: pucc-h.606 Posted: Thu Mar 22 09:23:38 1984 Date-Received: Fri, 23-Mar-84 21:26:06 EST References: <892@ssc-vax.UUCP>, <23@mako.UUCP> Organization: Purdue University Computing Center Lines: 74 Reply to Tim Stoehr: First, I think your title overstates the case. A lack of evidence (as you perceive it) in favor of something is not positive evidence against it. And, as so many opponents of Christianity do, you're imprisoning yourself by insisting that God be demonstrable solely to the rational mind; you're also trying (and failing) to imprison God, who (again) deals with the whole person, not just the rational mind. (Jesus Himself refused to do signs and wonders on demand for the cynical Pharisees; He made a remark which implied that the only sign they'd get would be His resurrection.) > What about all the people who believed in God and don't now, such as > myself, what convinced them? Presumably you never actually came to KNOW God. My guess is that you grew up in a church "having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof", as the Apostle Paul put it. You thus saw no evidence of what Christ can really do in a life (particularly not in your own), or in a group of lives coming together. > In the 25+ years that I have lived, I have witnessed absolutely nothing > that pointed to the existence of God. That, in itself, is rather > convincing to me. Granted I've never seen a black hole either, but > there is evidence that they exist. Where is the evidence that God > exists? Don't tell me that "2,000 years ago there was..." The details > of what went on 2,000 years ago nobody knows, noone can say that if > Jesus existed, that he lied, or not, about being the son of God. Let's > examine something that we know more about, again, I point to the total > lack of real, current evidence, of any kind. And I don't care if on > sunday morning I can turn on the TV and listen to people say they've > "talked to God", etc. Christians do fall down on the job. Jesus said, "By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, that you have love for one another." It is obvious that this is not true of ALL who claim to be Christians. Still, you have not been looking in the right places for evidence; and (as I said before) you are only hurting yourself by limiting the evidence you'll examine. I have known groups of very loving and caring Christians, with a quality about them quite different from any camaraderie that may arise among any non-Christians I've seen. And why shouldn't I tell you that 2000 years ago a Man who claimed to be the Son of God (and performed quite a few miracles--for those who really needed them--thereby lending credence to His claim) was raised from the dead with no human intervention, and was seen alive by many people who had seen Him die, quite dead? Don't say that you don't believe something that was written 2000 years ago. Do you believe the histories of, say, the Roman Empire that were written at that time period? You believe every historical fact on authority, because someone whom you perceive as reliable has told you so. In many (not all) cases, there is some physical evidence backing up the historical record. There is evidence of many types, including physical, backing up the Biblical record. Again I recommend the books "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" and "More Evidence that Demands a Verdict", by Josh McDowell. And finally, why not believe those who say that they have talked with God, or been miraculously healed by Him (such an incident was even broadcast on "That's Incredible" a few months back), or (as in my case) experienced considerable psychological healing because He has unstintingly loved me? Try it; you'll like it. Or rather, try Him; you'll love Him. "Taste and see that the Lord is good." > Christianity has survived as a philosophy, it does not depend on the > existence of God. This does indeed sound as though you grew up in a liberal church, preaching a philosophy rather than the Good News that "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself." But true Christianity--a true relationship with God, such as I and millions of others have experienced--obviously depends on having someone to relate to. This has gotten rather long, so I'll reply to at least some of the rest later on. -- -- Jeff Sargent {allegra|ihnp4|decvax|harpo|seismo|ucbvax}!pur-ee!pucc-h:aeq Have you hugged your junk mail today?