Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site ssc-vax.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!decvax!microsoft!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!sts From: sts@ssc-vax.UUCP (Stanley T Shebs) Newsgroups: net.philosophy Subject: Re: altruism in Eden (more or less) Message-ID: <371@ssc-vax.UUCP> Date: Thu, 4-Aug-83 19:02:12 EDT Article-I.D.: ssc-vax.371 Posted: Thu Aug 4 19:02:12 1983 Date-Received: Fri, 5-Aug-83 15:17:33 EDT References: <364@houti.UUCP> Organization: Boeing Aerospace, Seattle Lines: 58 Well, Mr. Craver has finally done it to me. Can no longer restrain myself from the great Altruism vs Objectivism debate - just gotta stick my oar in. First, let me say that Ayn Rand made quite an impression on me (via The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged), so I'm somewhat familiar with Objectivism and its ideals. Unfortunately, "ideal" is just the word for it. John Galt's paradise on earth, under the Almighty Dollar, is just as utopian and impossible as the "worker's paradise". So I suppose I should back up the assertion. First, "rationality". Do you know any rational persons? Someone who never lies, steals, buys on impulse, advocates altruism, dates a jerk (as in the net.singles discussion), or does any of the other irrational things so typical of the average human? The insistence on "rationality" makes Mr. Craver my top choice for AI project on the net (sorry, no insult intended, just making a point). How many societies on earth don't have a considerable share of those who would rule by force, and consider human rights to be an impediment? I could go on, but you get the idea. Next, "rights". What rights do I have? Surely I have the right to live and the right to speak out (except in cases of national security, hmmm?), and so forth. Do I have the right to a job? Mr. C probably says no. If I don't have the right to a job, do I have a right to eat? A little trickier now! If I'm starving, am I supposed to be rational and not steal food? Is it rational for a starving person to resort to crime? Is it rational for a drug addict to support his habit somehow? If a fetus has rights, then how does Mr. Craver resolve conflicts between mother and fetus, if one or the other must die? How does he solve that problem in general? Asimov's Third Law of Robotics solves it by choosing the larger group of people; perhaps Ayn Rand would solve it by choosing the wealthier? (I don't know, can't recall seeing anything on the question). Onward into the fog! Do I have a right to hear the truth? If so, most advertising infringes on my rights. If not, what can I do about those advertisements that attempt to sidestep rational thought, using every psychological trick in the book? (There's a good one!) Do I have the right to not have my rationality interfered with? As an example, the "flash" advertisements that go directly to the subconsious are illegal. Would they be permissible in Ayn Rand's ideal world? Or does she just assume that rational persons would never resort to such a trick? Anyway, the point of all this rambling is to get some better idea of exactly what rights I do have in an Objectivist system. Since everyone acts with complete freedom, my rights are my only protection. When you're done with these, I got more stan the leprechaun hacker (are nicknames rational?) ssc-vax!sts (soon utah-cs) ps Upon rereading, this seems to have shifted direction mid-stream Don't fuss please, I'm half an Objectivist myself, and the other half is not very rational