Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!genrad!decvax!harpo!floyd!vax135!ariel!hou5f!orion!houca!hogpc!houxm!ihnp4!cbosgd!cbscd5!lvc From: lvc@cbscd5.UUCP Newsgroups: net.politics Subject: Re: Limited Laws for All Time? Message-ID: <237@cbscd5.UUCP> Date: Wed, 29-Jun-83 22:32:23 EDT Article-I.D.: cbscd5.237 Posted: Wed Jun 29 22:32:23 1983 Date-Received: Thu, 30-Jun-83 23:31:04 EDT Lines: 33 The news item posted by Tim Sevener concerning 'limited laws for all time' contains much misunderstanding over Godel's proof. This news item will deal only with this and not discuss such laws or any justification for gov't. Godel's proof states that under a "certain set of circumstances" there exists a problem which cannot be proven true using statements of the same "form" as the problem. A few examples will illustrate what I mean. 1 ) The problem x * x + 1 = 0 can be solved only by using complex numbers yet it is stated without using complex numbers. 2 ) The problem x * x - 2 = 0 can be solved only by introducing irrational numbers, yet they are not in the problem. Ultimately what Tim is saying is that the facts of reality are insufficient to explain reality. This is simply absurd. He states "If such is true for LOGICAL systems how can it possibly be true for POLITICAL systems or moral systems?" The answer quite simply is that Godel's theorem does not apply. If the premises are not met the conclusion does not follow. I would suggest that Tim Sevener get his head out of Hofstadter (a mathematical lightweight) and read "Introduction to Metamathetics" by S. C. Kleene. It is an excellent text, and quite carefully proves Godel's proof. Larry Cipriani cbscd5!lvc