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From: jdj55611@ihuxk.UUCP
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Re: Paradise vs. Resurrection
Message-ID: <385@ihuxk.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 12-Jul-83 17:48:19 EDT
Article-I.D.: ihuxk.385
Posted: Tue Jul 12 17:48:19 1983
Date-Received: Wed, 13-Jul-83 20:24:29 EDT
References: <214@hogpc.UUCP>
Organization: BTL Naperville, Il.
Lines: 164


I am continually chagrined by the ability of the proponents of various
beliefs to rely on the Bible for their inspiration yet proffer such widely
divergent claims. The state of the dead is just one such issue, but
the base question still remains:  What ever happened to the concept of
"One Lord, one faith, one baptism" that Paul preached? I might try to
attack that topic later; the issue at hand is, however, is a dead one.

A recent submission by S. Boswell on the subject of paradise and
resurrection told of a differing view. I would again like to address
several of the issues raised. I will also refer the reader to a quote
from the Interpreters Bible posted recently.

>From S. Boswells article:
>>>Here is my summary: (so you will know what's going on)
>>>Gen 2:7	dust + breath = LIVING soul ( takes both, not one or the other)
>>>Ecclesiastes 12:7 dust goes to earth, breath leaves, therefore you no longer
		have a living soul
>>>Gen 3:19 man returns to dust at death
>>>Job 14:10-12,21 man doesn't rise after death till heavens
		(atmosphere) pass away
>>>II Peter 3:10 heavens (atmosphere) pass away at Christ's coming
>>>Psalms 146:3,4 thoughts perish at death
>>>Acts 2:29-34, 13:36 David has not yet ascended to heaven
>>>I Thessalonians 4:13-18 dead IN CHRIST (christians) rising at Christ's return
>>>Isaiah 38:18,19; Psalms 115:17 dead DO NOT praise the Lord
>>>Ecclesiastes 9:5,6 dead know nothing, memory is gone (till resurrection)

First, a comment on Genesis. Have you ever wondered why man is the last
created in Chapter 1 yet the first `formed' in Chapter 2? In Gen. 1:27,
God created man, male and female. In 2:7, God now forms man out of the `dust
of the ground and breathed into his nostrils.' This could be viewed as
a spiritual creation followed by a physical creation. In other words, God
created Adam as a `spirit being' then merged that creation with the dust of
the earth followed by a `jump start.' (see Jer. 1:4,5)
The `breath of life' is the glue that holds our spirit and body together.
When we become unglued, that ability to join physical and spiritual remains
with God. The dust we have borrowed for the duration of our life on earth
remains here. The spirit and the body are the soul of man; the separation
of which does not obliterate the spirit. 

Now for Ecclesiastes. It is importent to recognize the frame of reference
of the writer of this book. In the introduction, he states `all is vanity.'
Vain, as defined by Webster, means one that is changeable or inconstant;
which is definately not an attribute of God. Ecc. is providing a worldly
view of life and death. Read through the book and you'll see what I mean.
I would be very careful before using any scripture from Ecclesiastes and
claiming it as gospel.

How about Job, the poor guy. As far as man not rising til the heavens
pass away, what about Matt. 27:52,53 which states that the bodies of
many of the saints arose and appeared to many. And I can't accept the
idea that the earthquake through them out on the road. How could you
tell a saint skeleton from a sinner skeleton? These two verses appear
out of context and should probably be associated with the time following
the resurrection of Christ. The first resurrection began with Christ and
I agree the the righteous will rise first, but that as Paul states in
Corinthians, each will get a turn sooner or later.
While we are in Job how about Job 19:25,26: "And though after my skin worms
destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God." Job is talking
about the resurrection. (see also Luke 24:36-43)

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is an interesting section. I don't
think that Christ would have been so specific in that example had it not been
accurate. He spoke in parables to enlighten those who would hear, not
to tell fairy tales. All I can say is read it with an unbiased mind ( how
is that for an impossibility! ).

I have already submitted an article containing a commentary on 1 Peter,
but I do find it very difficult to follow S. Boswells reasoning on the
subject. Rather than repeat the argument I would refer the reader to
the article entitled "Commentary on Paradise."

Continuing with S. Boswell:

>>>I Peter 4:6 does not stand as evidence that the gospel is preached to the 
>>>dead. If you look at the verse ot says, "for this cause WAS (past tense)
>>>the gospel preached also to them that are (present tense) dead." Enough said.

Well, not quite enough. Lets continue with the verse:

	"...that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but
	live according to God in the spirit."

Here, Peter is indicating that the dead can live in the spirit. I 
don't think that sits well with your definition of dead.

>>Remember what I said in my last article that if we find a piece of
>>scripture that seems to contradict what so many other verses say then we
>>need to find the correct interpretation. God is an intelligent God and we
>>should not expect any contradiction.

Here is a chance for S. Boswell to apply his own reasoning:

>>I have read and heard many sermons on Luke 23:42,43 which talks of the thief
>>and the promise, "I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in paradise."
>>I have only two hard sources to give but I hve heard others say this. First,
>>one problem is the placement of the comma in the sentence. In the greek text
>>there is only continuous text - no seperation of words, sentences, etc. Bible
>>translators did that. If the comma was placed after "today"  the verse would
>>have been in harmony with the rest of the Bible.

I spent some time browsing and have decided that this interpretation "seems
to contradict what so many other verses say." I could find no other
instance where a qualifier such as `today' was found in that language
construct of the four gospels.  What I am saying is that I could find no
other instance where Christ said something similar to `I say unto thee
today, ...' Based on your own admonition I must reject your argument.

>> As a matter of fact, I've
>>read  where the thieves didn't die on the same day as Jesus did either. You
>>usually hung for days on the cross but Jesus died early because of a broken
>>heart, among other reasons. The source for this is in the books "Spirits
>>of the Dead" by Joe Crews and the book "Answers to Dificult Bible Texts" as
>>mentioned earlier. Ther are more sources but these are the only two in my
>>library of which I could give a name and author.

The thieves sharing Golgatha with Christ did NOT hang for days on the
cross. In John 19:31-33, the Jews did not want the bodies remaining on
the crosses while they prepared for the Sabbath. They impuned Pilate to
remove them;  the guards then broke the legs of the thieves. This action
brought death soon to the thieves because they could no longer raise
themselves up to catch the breath. The bodies, in accordance with the
wishes of the Jews, were removed before sundown.

>>In II Corinthians 12:1-5 Paul tells of a
>>friend that was caught up to the third Heaven. (It should be clear that the
>>first heaven is the atmosphere, the second is the celestial heaven (stars,
>>planets) and the third is God's dwelling place.) In verse 5 Paul recalls
>>the third Heaven PARADISE. In Revelation 2:7 John states the Tree of Life
>>is in the MIDST of the PARADISE of God. In Revelation 22:2 as John is 
>>describing Heaven he tells you the Tree of Life is in HEAVEN and the margin
>>gives reference to Revelation 2:7.

First of all, I don't think the definition above should be clear. I would 
like to see some scriptural evidence assigning the heavens as such. I would
more likely equate the three heavens to the three glories described by Paul
in Corinthians associated with the resurrection. (see 1 Cor. 15:40-42)
In verse 5, Paul could just as easliy be describing two places visited;
paradise and heaven.
Finally, I absolutely agree with you that in Rev. 22:2 the tree of life
is in heaven. This scripture is a description of the heavenly city
associated with Gods eternal reign. By this time, there is no longer
a paradise as I described since all men have been judged and resurrected.

Well, this has turned out to be longer than I anticipated.
I, too, would encourage seekers to search out the best books. I am very
careful in my selection of reference material and have found few authors
I would dare rely completely on. One source I would recommend is the
`Interpreters Bible.' This is an extensive work by theologians which
provides excellent insight into the scriptures.

I still think the basic question is: What happens to all the people
who have never heard of the gospel? My answer to the question is that
God provides a mechanism for ALL to hear and accept or reject the
gospel. This is one of the purposes of paradise. The Lord has said:

	"This is my work and my glory - to bring to pass the 
	immortality and eternal life of man."


			J. D. Jensen
			ihuxk!jdj55611
			BTL Naperville IL