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From: boswell@hogpc.UUCP
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Re: Paradise vs. Resurrection
Message-ID: <214@hogpc.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 8-Jul-83 16:34:39 EDT
Article-I.D.: hogpc.214
Posted: Fri Jul  8 16:34:39 1983
Date-Received: Sat, 9-Jul-83 17:23:30 EDT
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I put this article out before but received no response. In case it got
lost here it is again. If you saw it before then I apologize for the
repeat
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	I appologize for the length of this article but I had a lot to 
clear up. I do not want anybody to think this is a flame or I am cutting
down anybody's belief. I am just taking opportunity to discuss what I
feel the Bible has to say on a subject.
	This article is in reference to a discussion on what happens at
death. Mr. J. Jensen wrote an article in which he says that you go to
a place called paradise. This is based on Luke 23:39-43, I Peter 3:18-20,
and I Peter 4:6. He wrote since Christ said "today you will be with me in
paradise" and yet three days later said he wsn't ascended to His Father
that there is a intermedient place called paradise and thinks I Peter 3:18-20
tells of Christ's visit there. I wrote an article awhile back of which I will
summarize and also said I would write a second article as soon as I read 
some literature on these verses.

Here is my summary: (so you will know what's going on)
Gen 2:7	dust + breath = LIVING soul ( takes both, not one or the other)
Ecclesiastes 12:7 dust goes to earth, breath leaves, therefore you no longer
		have a living soul
Gen 3:19 man returns to dust at death
Job 14:10-12,21 man doesn't rise after death till heavens (atmosphere) pass away
II Peter 3:10 heavens (atmosphere) pass away at Christ's coming
Psalms 146:3,4 thoughts perish at death
Acts 2:29-34, 13:36 David has not yet ascended to heaven
I Thessalonians 4:13-18 dead IN CHRIST (christians) rising at Christ's return
Isaiah 38:18,19; Psalms 115:17 dead DO NOT praise the Lord
Ecclesiastes 9:5,6 dead know nothing, memory is gone (till resurrection)

I also wrote on Eternal Life and quoted several verses including I John5:12
which says those in Jesus (christians) have Eternal Life, Those without Him
do not.
	In reply to this Mr. Jensen wrote:
>I think it is important here to differentiate between two principles;
>eternal life and immortality. As cited above, eternal life is conditional
>on our faith in God and our acceptance of the gospel. Immortality, on
>the other hand is applicable to all as found in I Cor.15:21-22:

Let me give some scripture:
Psalms 92:7 wicked destroyed forever
John 3:16 believers receive eternal life instead of perishing
Romans 2:7 those seeking imortality receive eternal life - if we already 
	have immortality why are we seeking it?
II Thessalonians 1:9 wicked receive everlasting destruction
Jude 7 Sodom and Gomorrah suffered eternal fire
II Peter 2:6 Sodom and Gomorrah are burned to ashes
(as a matter of fact the dead sea covers them)
Malachi 4:1-3 wicked will burn up and be ashes under our feet
Revelation 20:14 hell is the second death
Revelation 21:8 hell is the second death
As can be seen it looks like the wicked will not be immortalas a matter of
fact the bible says in I Timothy 1:17 that God is immortal. You'll never
find a passage which says man is. In Romans 2:7 it says we should be
seeking immortality so we can receive eternal life!! If we already have 
immortality why should we be seeking it?

On with I Cor. 15:21-22
Do you believe in the harmony of the gospels? For example you can read the
parable of the talents in Matt. 25:14-30 and also in Luke 19:12-27.
If you read both together you get a better insight. One verse may give a
little more on the subject then another. The same goes for I Cor. 15:21-22.
If you read it alone verse 22 sys "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ
shall all be made alive." Now read verse 23 " But every man in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits; afterwards they THAT ARE CHRIST"S (christians) AT
HIS COMING (second coming)."!!! notice the all in verse 21 is narrowed down
to those who are in Christ - Christians, and His coming - second coming. 
Therefore the righteous are raised at His coming. I must show you proof, but
first I Cor. 15:52 says "the dead shall be raised" it doesn't say whether 
it's the righteous or the wicked. Now lets see how the harmony of the gospels
can be applied here. I Thessalonians 4:13-18 especially verse 16 says the 
dead IN CHRIST shall rise first. Verse 17 says we who are still alive shall
rise or be caught up next. So we see I Cor. says the dead rise. I Thess. says
a little more and narrows the dead to only those who are dead IN CHRIST - in
other words passed away christians!!. This should be plain. Now for the
proof I promised that only the righteous rise at His second coming. In
Revelation 20:4-6 we see the verse telling us who have part in the first
resurrection will be in Heaven with Jesus. The rest of the dead (wicked since
the righteous are in heaven) rose not until the 1000 years are over. The 
first resurrection mentioned in verse 5 should be clear to refer to the
resurrection of the righteous. How clear do you want it? If you need more
then read verses 13-15 where it says death and hell(hell>hades>grave see margin)
gave up the dead ( resurrectin of the wicked (second resurrection) notice no
mention of righteous) and ALL was thrown into the lake of fire - the second
death (Rev 20:14, Rev 21:8).

	Mr. Jensen gave reference to the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.
Here are four points brought out in a book called "Answers to Difficult Bible
Texts" by Joe Crews on page 36.
	1. The beggar died and was taken by the angels to Abraham's bosom. No
one believes that Abraham's literal bosom is the abode of the righteous dead.
It is a figurative or parabolic expression. Incidentally, the angels will
gather the saints, but according to Matt. 24:31, it takes place at the coming
of Jesus - not at death.
	2. Heaven and hell were separated by a gulf, and they could converse 
with each other. There is probably no individual in the world who believes
that this will be literally true of the saved and the lost.
	3. The rich man was in hell with a body. He had eyes, tongue, etc.
How did this body get into hell fire instead of in the grave? No one teaches
that the bodies of the wicked go into hell as soon as they die. This story
could not be literal.
	4. The request of Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and
come through the flames to cool the rich man's tongue is obviously not literal.
How much moisture would be left and how much relief would it give? The story
is unrealistic and parabolic.
(Still quoting from the book) The rich man undoubtedly represented the Jews
in the parable because only a Jew would pray to "Father Abraham". The beggar
symbolized the Gentiles who were counted unworthy to receive the truth. In
Matt. 15:27 the Canaanite women acknowledged that they were beggars at the 
table of the Jews.
 Christ probably chose the name of Lazarus to use in the parable because
later He would actually raise Lazarus from the dead. And the climatic point
of the entire parable is found in verse 31, "If they hear not Moses and the
prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rose from the dead."
And they didn't believe even when one named Lazarus was raised before them.
(End quote)

 Mr. Jensen mentions I Peter 3:18-20 as proof Christ went to paradise and 
preached. Here is a summary of this text from two books, one being the 
aforementioned book and the second a book called "Here and Hereafter" by
Uriah Smith. 
	Christ preached by the Spirit. When was the preaching done - in the
days of Noah as the ark was being built ("was a preparing" vs. 20). To whom
was the preaching done? spirits in prison. What is a spirit in prison? In
Psalms 142:7 David was asking God to bring his soul out of prison. In the
book of Isaiah 42:7 it's saying the gentiles are in prison or darkness
because they do not know the Lord. The authors says what Peter is telling
us is that Christ through the Holy Spirit was present while Noah preached.
Christ was there through the Holy Spirit appealing to their hearts. Also
if you say Christ preached to them while at death then your chronology
is incorrect. 1. Christ was "put to death in the flesh". 2. Next, He was
"quickened by the spirit" - resurrected (see Romans 8:11). 3. Then it talks
of Christ going and preaching to the spirits in prison. So then preaching
does not come in, on this ground, till after Christ was made alive from the
dead. Remember what I said in my last article that if we find a piece of
scripture that seems to contradict what so many other verses say then we
need to find the correct interpretation. God is an intelligent God and we
should not expect any contradiction. After a deeper study of this verse we
see it is not contradicting our other scripture on the dead - thoughts perish,
don't praise the lord, go back to earth, etc. This is a dificult verse but
after reading what scolars say about it we see it's harmony with the rest
of the Bible.

I Peter 4:6 does not stand as evidence that the gospel is preached to the 
dead. If you look at the verse ot says, "for this cause WAS (past tense)
the gospel preached also to them that are (present tense) dead." Enough said.

I have read and heard many sermons on Luke 23:42,43 which talks of the thief
and the promise, "I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in paradise."
I have only two hard sources to give but I hve heard others say this. First,
one problem is the placement of the comma in the sentence. In the greek text
there is only continuous text - no seperation of words, sentences, etc. Bible
translators did that. If the comma was placed after "today"  the verse would
have been in harmony with the rest of the Bible. As a matter of fact, I've
read  where the thieves didn't die on the same day as Jesus did either. You
usually hung for days on the cross but Jesus died early because of a broken
heart, among other reasons. The source for this is in the books "Spirits
of the Dead" by Joe Crews and the book "Answers to Dificult Bible Texts" as
mentioned earlier. Ther are more sources but these are the only two in my
library of which I could give a name and author.
Also notice that Paul himself was looking for his crown of righteousnes to
be given at HIS APPEARING (Christ's second coming) II Timothy 4:6-8

 My last thought is on Paradise. Mr. Jensen said Paradise is a place not in
Heaven. I ask a question, is Heaven where God dwells? If in doubt read 
Psalms 11:14, 14:2, 20:6, 33:13. In II Corinthians 12:1-5 Paul tells of a
friend that was caught up to the third Heaven. (It should be clear that the
first heaven is the atmosphere, the second is the celestial heaven (stars,
planets) and the third is God's dwelling place.) In verse 5 Paul recalls
the third Heaven PARADISE. In Revelation 2:7 John states the Tree of Life
is in the MIDST of the PARADISE of God. In Revelation 22:2 as John is 
describing Heaven he tells you the Tree of Life is in HEAVEN and the margin
gives reference to Revelation 2:7. To me it's beautiful how the Bible can
flow and explain itself removing any doubt. As I said earlier we serve an
intelligent God so don't expect contradictions. If we have a problem with
one verse then read ALL verses on the subject then try to read the puzzling
one with the extra light shinning from your new knowledge. It could remove
alot of the puzzle. Also seek other sources from scholars that show the
harmony of scripture. II Timothy 3:16 says ALL scripture is given for
doctrine, reproof and correction. I don't want to seem as though I am 
atacking anybody for I am not. I am only speaking out against what I feel
is error. I have nothing against no man just error. For if it is error and I
speak not out against it, Then I'am held accountable for this.

God is Love (I John 4:16)
Peace to All
Stephen R. Boswell