Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site uwvax.ARPA Path: utzoo!linus!philabs!seismo!uwvax!reid From: reid@uwvax.UUCP Newsgroups: net.poems Subject: Re: Re: Form in Poetry Message-ID: <969@uwvax.ARPA> Date: Sat, 2-Jul-83 01:58:39 EDT Article-I.D.: uwvax.969 Posted: Sat Jul 2 01:58:39 1983 Date-Received: Sat, 2-Jul-83 22:46:26 EDT References: <346@houxf.UUCP> Organization: U of Wisconsin CS Dept Lines: 53 In response to the article about Milton and rhyme -- I agree. I never said that rhyme, per se, was necessary, nor necessarily stanza structure, but you'll certainly find structure in Milton's verse. He alliterates like crazy, uses strings of nouns, all kinds of "specialized" constructs which, in a sense, cause the Form of the poem (the Language--including syntax, phonetics, seman- tics, whatever works) to *reinforce* the Meaning of the poem. You will find in Milton, for example, that the syntax, especially, is carefully controlled so that in descriptive passages or action passages the syntax will flow smoothly or be particularly rocky, depending on the sense of the passage. I'll see if I can dig up an example out of "Paradise Lost" . . . . "Before the Gates there sat On either side a formidable shape; The one seem'd Woman to the waist, and fair, But ended foul in many a scaly fold Voluminous and vast, a Serpent Arm'd With mortal sting: about her middle round A cry of Hell Hounds never ceasing bark'd With wide Cerberean mouths full loud, and rung A hideous Peal: yet, when they list, would creep, If aught disturb'd thir noise, into her womb, And kennel there, yet there sill bark'd and howl'd Within unseen. Far less abhorr'd than these Vex'd Scylla bathing in the Sea that parts Calabria from the hoarse Trinacrian shore: Nor uglier follow the Night-Hag, when call'd In secret, riding through the Air she comes Lur'd with the smell of infant blood to dance With Lapland Witches, while the laboring Moon Eclipses at thir charms." There are only two sentences here, and they are very complex. There are many instances of alliteration, he uses apostrophes to modify the pronunciation slightly (since the way the passage *sounds* was crafted very carefully by Milton), and so on. It is pretty hard to deny that there is structure in this stuff, although not your basic iambic pentameter. Milton is probably a bad one to pick to illustrate lack of form. In any case, I should generalize more: In "Good" poetry there is some connection, or parallel, between the language used and the sense of the poem. It sounds pretty stupid, but if you think carefully about your favorite poems, the flow, sound, and esthetic beauty of the language itself is what makes it such a good poem, not just what is said. Poetry is not merely a method to make some point, but is like story-telling or art in that the medium itself is important. Enough said. But it is a good topic for discussion. It is the essense of poetry, methinks. Glenn Reid (I started all this, I must admit....) ...seismo!uwvax!reid