Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!decvax!tektronix!uw-beaver!cornell!vax135!ariel!hou5f!orion!houca!hogpc!houti!trc From: trc@houti.UUCP (T.CRAVER) Newsgroups: net.philosophy Subject: Christian Altruism Message-ID: <354@houti.UUCP> Date: Fri, 22-Jul-83 09:17:41 EDT Article-I.D.: houti.354 Posted: Fri Jul 22 09:17:41 1983 Date-Received: Sun, 24-Jul-83 02:05:30 EDT Lines: 64 Response to Paul Dubuc on Christianity and altruism: (Lets keep this in net.philosophy for now, though it may evolve into something that belongs in net.religion. Any other discussion of altruism can change over to net.philosophy too.) Your major claim seems to be that Christianity "is not purely altruistic", but allows some concern for oneself as well. I agree that Christians are not consistent on some things - I've met a great variety of them, and they do vary from materialistic to mystical - but that has little to do with selfish vs altruistic. Communists are typically considered materialistic, but they are altruistic. I would claim that Christians are "mystical altruists". They do not practice altruism consistently, but that says nothing about what the Christian religion teaches. It only gives evidence that, even with the sincerest intentions to follow those teachings, altruism is impossible for humans to practice fully. I know of no strong Biblical evidence supporting the idea that it is a sin not to give at least a minimum of concern for oneself. I do know of plenty of evidence supporting the idea that one should sacrifice one's own good for others. Examples are "turn the other cheek", "carry the (enemy) soldier's pack an extra mile", "sell all that you possess and give it to the poor", "love your enemies", etc. I would agree that there are in additional actions that are considered sins against God - cursing, worshiping false idols, etc; and that these have little to do with altruism. On that basis, Christianity is not "purely altruistic". However, *I* would consider such actions as generally *amoral* - you would not think it a sin to insult some other religion's god, would you? Thus, I still claim that in the realm of moral choices in reality, altruism is dominant in Christianity. The thing that appears closest to concern with self is the consideration of suicide as a sin, by Catholics. However, that seems to be based upon the proscription on killing in general of the 10 commandments. I seriously doubt this really refers to suicide, any more than it refers to slaughtering animals or plants. Secondly, calling suicide a sin can be be justified, in a twisted sort of way, within altruism. After all, suicide is often called "the easy way out" - and that is something that altruism doesnt allow its victims. They must always do that which is hardest for them to do, to be moral, and so they must stay alive as a duty to others. (One sometimes hears suicides referred to *contemptuously* as "selfish".) As for pure selfishness not working either, I disagree. First, you provide no basis for your assertion other than "Can you imagine everyone in a society being a "Howard Roark"?" No, I cant fully imagine it - but what I can imagine of it is just fine. For those of you who havent read the book, Howard Roark was almost completely selfish. (However, "Atlas Struggled" deals more fully with altruism.) Most conflicts in the story arise because Roark doesnt care about what people think of him, which irritates most people he meets, and inspires hatred in some. You will have to tell me how such conflicts would arise if *everyone* rejected the ideas that they *should* care what others think of them, and that they *should* act altruistically. Selfishness (individualism) would be a good basis for society. Ethically, it is the idea that one's life is one's own to live, and to enjoy. Politically, it gives rise to the ideas of individual rights and Capitalism. Aesthetically, it is expressed in art and literature that portrays human ideals, rather than portraying humans as debased animals and reality as a inconsistent or incomprehensible mush. Tom Craver houti!trc