Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10 5/26/83; site ihuxk.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!philabs!cmcl2!floyd!whuxlb!pyuxll!eisx!npoiv!npois!hogpc!houxm!ihnp4!ihuxk!jdj55611 From: jdj55611@ihuxk.UUCP Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: Re: Paradise vs. Resurrection Message-ID: <385@ihuxk.UUCP> Date: Tue, 12-Jul-83 17:48:19 EDT Article-I.D.: ihuxk.385 Posted: Tue Jul 12 17:48:19 1983 Date-Received: Wed, 13-Jul-83 20:24:29 EDT References: <214@hogpc.UUCP> Organization: BTL Naperville, Il. Lines: 164 I am continually chagrined by the ability of the proponents of various beliefs to rely on the Bible for their inspiration yet proffer such widely divergent claims. The state of the dead is just one such issue, but the base question still remains: What ever happened to the concept of "One Lord, one faith, one baptism" that Paul preached? I might try to attack that topic later; the issue at hand is, however, is a dead one. A recent submission by S. Boswell on the subject of paradise and resurrection told of a differing view. I would again like to address several of the issues raised. I will also refer the reader to a quote from the Interpreters Bible posted recently. >From S. Boswells article: >>>Here is my summary: (so you will know what's going on) >>>Gen 2:7 dust + breath = LIVING soul ( takes both, not one or the other) >>>Ecclesiastes 12:7 dust goes to earth, breath leaves, therefore you no longer have a living soul >>>Gen 3:19 man returns to dust at death >>>Job 14:10-12,21 man doesn't rise after death till heavens (atmosphere) pass away >>>II Peter 3:10 heavens (atmosphere) pass away at Christ's coming >>>Psalms 146:3,4 thoughts perish at death >>>Acts 2:29-34, 13:36 David has not yet ascended to heaven >>>I Thessalonians 4:13-18 dead IN CHRIST (christians) rising at Christ's return >>>Isaiah 38:18,19; Psalms 115:17 dead DO NOT praise the Lord >>>Ecclesiastes 9:5,6 dead know nothing, memory is gone (till resurrection) First, a comment on Genesis. Have you ever wondered why man is the last created in Chapter 1 yet the first `formed' in Chapter 2? In Gen. 1:27, God created man, male and female. In 2:7, God now forms man out of the `dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils.' This could be viewed as a spiritual creation followed by a physical creation. In other words, God created Adam as a `spirit being' then merged that creation with the dust of the earth followed by a `jump start.' (see Jer. 1:4,5) The `breath of life' is the glue that holds our spirit and body together. When we become unglued, that ability to join physical and spiritual remains with God. The dust we have borrowed for the duration of our life on earth remains here. The spirit and the body are the soul of man; the separation of which does not obliterate the spirit. Now for Ecclesiastes. It is importent to recognize the frame of reference of the writer of this book. In the introduction, he states `all is vanity.' Vain, as defined by Webster, means one that is changeable or inconstant; which is definately not an attribute of God. Ecc. is providing a worldly view of life and death. Read through the book and you'll see what I mean. I would be very careful before using any scripture from Ecclesiastes and claiming it as gospel. How about Job, the poor guy. As far as man not rising til the heavens pass away, what about Matt. 27:52,53 which states that the bodies of many of the saints arose and appeared to many. And I can't accept the idea that the earthquake through them out on the road. How could you tell a saint skeleton from a sinner skeleton? These two verses appear out of context and should probably be associated with the time following the resurrection of Christ. The first resurrection began with Christ and I agree the the righteous will rise first, but that as Paul states in Corinthians, each will get a turn sooner or later. While we are in Job how about Job 19:25,26: "And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God." Job is talking about the resurrection. (see also Luke 24:36-43) The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is an interesting section. I don't think that Christ would have been so specific in that example had it not been accurate. He spoke in parables to enlighten those who would hear, not to tell fairy tales. All I can say is read it with an unbiased mind ( how is that for an impossibility! ). I have already submitted an article containing a commentary on 1 Peter, but I do find it very difficult to follow S. Boswells reasoning on the subject. Rather than repeat the argument I would refer the reader to the article entitled "Commentary on Paradise." Continuing with S. Boswell: >>>I Peter 4:6 does not stand as evidence that the gospel is preached to the >>>dead. If you look at the verse ot says, "for this cause WAS (past tense) >>>the gospel preached also to them that are (present tense) dead." Enough said. Well, not quite enough. Lets continue with the verse: "...that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." Here, Peter is indicating that the dead can live in the spirit. I don't think that sits well with your definition of dead. >>Remember what I said in my last article that if we find a piece of >>scripture that seems to contradict what so many other verses say then we >>need to find the correct interpretation. God is an intelligent God and we >>should not expect any contradiction. Here is a chance for S. Boswell to apply his own reasoning: >>I have read and heard many sermons on Luke 23:42,43 which talks of the thief >>and the promise, "I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in paradise." >>I have only two hard sources to give but I hve heard others say this. First, >>one problem is the placement of the comma in the sentence. In the greek text >>there is only continuous text - no seperation of words, sentences, etc. Bible >>translators did that. If the comma was placed after "today" the verse would >>have been in harmony with the rest of the Bible. I spent some time browsing and have decided that this interpretation "seems to contradict what so many other verses say." I could find no other instance where a qualifier such as `today' was found in that language construct of the four gospels. What I am saying is that I could find no other instance where Christ said something similar to `I say unto thee today, ...' Based on your own admonition I must reject your argument. >> As a matter of fact, I've >>read where the thieves didn't die on the same day as Jesus did either. You >>usually hung for days on the cross but Jesus died early because of a broken >>heart, among other reasons. The source for this is in the books "Spirits >>of the Dead" by Joe Crews and the book "Answers to Dificult Bible Texts" as >>mentioned earlier. Ther are more sources but these are the only two in my >>library of which I could give a name and author. The thieves sharing Golgatha with Christ did NOT hang for days on the cross. In John 19:31-33, the Jews did not want the bodies remaining on the crosses while they prepared for the Sabbath. They impuned Pilate to remove them; the guards then broke the legs of the thieves. This action brought death soon to the thieves because they could no longer raise themselves up to catch the breath. The bodies, in accordance with the wishes of the Jews, were removed before sundown. >>In II Corinthians 12:1-5 Paul tells of a >>friend that was caught up to the third Heaven. (It should be clear that the >>first heaven is the atmosphere, the second is the celestial heaven (stars, >>planets) and the third is God's dwelling place.) In verse 5 Paul recalls >>the third Heaven PARADISE. In Revelation 2:7 John states the Tree of Life >>is in the MIDST of the PARADISE of God. In Revelation 22:2 as John is >>describing Heaven he tells you the Tree of Life is in HEAVEN and the margin >>gives reference to Revelation 2:7. First of all, I don't think the definition above should be clear. I would like to see some scriptural evidence assigning the heavens as such. I would more likely equate the three heavens to the three glories described by Paul in Corinthians associated with the resurrection. (see 1 Cor. 15:40-42) In verse 5, Paul could just as easliy be describing two places visited; paradise and heaven. Finally, I absolutely agree with you that in Rev. 22:2 the tree of life is in heaven. This scripture is a description of the heavenly city associated with Gods eternal reign. By this time, there is no longer a paradise as I described since all men have been judged and resurrected. Well, this has turned out to be longer than I anticipated. I, too, would encourage seekers to search out the best books. I am very careful in my selection of reference material and have found few authors I would dare rely completely on. One source I would recommend is the `Interpreters Bible.' This is an extensive work by theologians which provides excellent insight into the scriptures. I still think the basic question is: What happens to all the people who have never heard of the gospel? My answer to the question is that God provides a mechanism for ALL to hear and accept or reject the gospel. This is one of the purposes of paradise. The Lord has said: "This is my work and my glory - to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." J. D. Jensen ihuxk!jdj55611 BTL Naperville IL