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From: sts@ssc-vax.UUCP (Stanley T Shebs)
Newsgroups: net.philosophy
Subject: Re: altruism in Eden (more or less)
Message-ID: <371@ssc-vax.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 4-Aug-83 19:02:12 EDT
Article-I.D.: ssc-vax.371
Posted: Thu Aug  4 19:02:12 1983
Date-Received: Fri, 5-Aug-83 15:17:33 EDT
References: <364@houti.UUCP>
Organization: Boeing Aerospace, Seattle
Lines: 58

Well, Mr. Craver has finally done it to me.  Can no longer restrain
myself from the great Altruism vs Objectivism debate - just gotta stick
my oar in.

First, let me say that Ayn Rand made quite an impression on me (via
The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged), so I'm somewhat familiar with
Objectivism and its ideals.  Unfortunately, "ideal" is just the word
for it.  John Galt's paradise on earth, under the Almighty Dollar,
is just as utopian and impossible as the "worker's paradise".

So I suppose I should back up the assertion.  First, "rationality".
Do you know any rational persons?  Someone who never lies, steals,
buys on impulse, advocates altruism, dates a jerk (as in the
net.singles discussion), or does any of the other irrational things
so typical of the average human?  The insistence on "rationality"
makes Mr. Craver my top choice for AI project on the net (sorry,
no insult intended, just making a point).  How many societies on
earth don't have a considerable share of those who would rule by
force, and consider human rights to be an impediment? I could go
on, but you get the idea.

Next, "rights".  What rights do I have?  Surely I have the right to
live and the right to speak out (except in cases of national
security, hmmm?), and so forth.  Do I have the right to a job?
Mr. C probably says no.  If I don't have the right to a job, do
I have a right to eat?  A little trickier now!  If I'm starving, am
I supposed to be rational and not steal food?  Is it rational for
a starving person to resort to crime? Is it rational for a drug
addict to support his habit somehow?   If a fetus has rights, then
how does Mr. Craver resolve conflicts between mother and fetus,
if one or the other must die?  How does he solve that problem
in general?  Asimov's Third Law of Robotics solves it by choosing
the larger group of people; perhaps Ayn Rand would solve it by
choosing the wealthier? (I don't know, can't recall seeing anything
on the question).

Onward into the fog!  Do I have a right to hear the truth?
If so, most advertising infringes on my rights.  If not, what
can I do about those advertisements that attempt to sidestep
rational thought, using every psychological trick in the book?
(There's a good one!) Do I have the right to not have my rationality
interfered with?  As an example, the "flash" advertisements
that go directly to the subconsious are illegal.  Would they be
permissible in Ayn Rand's ideal world?  Or does she just assume
that rational persons would never resort to such a trick?

Anyway, the point of all this rambling is to get some better
idea of exactly what rights I do have in an Objectivist system.
Since everyone acts with complete freedom, my rights are
my only protection.

			When you're done with these, I got more
			stan the leprechaun hacker (are nicknames rational?)
			ssc-vax!sts (soon utah-cs)

ps Upon rereading, this seems to have shifted direction mid-stream
Don't fuss please, I'm half an Objectivist myself, and the other half
is not very rational