From: utzoo!decvax!harpo!npoiv!hou5f!ariel!vax135!floyd!trb
Newsgroups: net.flame,net.religion
Title: Re: A reply to Dave Lee
Article-I.D.: floyd.1178
Posted: Fri Feb 11 14:28:25 1983
Received: Sat Feb 12 06:52:47 1983
References: sultan.139

In his netnews, sultan!dag wonders if I'm listening...
of course I am, in the netnews universe, I'm omnipresent...

Anyway, by popular demand I participate in this fracas.
You'll see, by the time I'm finished, that part of the reason I don't
jump into these arguments is that I have lots I want to say, and I don't
have the energy to say it well and coherently, and you probably wouldn't
care to read it if I did.  I just hope you find my comments enlightening.

I don't think holy wars make much sense, but they make more sense than
religious arguments of the type I find on netnews.  Here's why:

People mistakenly believe that religion is a simple subject that they
have a good grasp of.  As we grew up, many of us went to our places of
worship, to religious classes; I went to yeshiva, and so on.

There are several subjects about which I know enough to hold my own in
polite conversation, but on which I'm not a foremost authority.  UNIX,
chess, frisbee, ballet, netnews, religion, etc.  All of these subjects
are more or less boundless.  Of all subjects, religion is least
boundless.  At its very base, there are impressions rather than facts.
And upon these impressions, VAST systems of knowledge are built.

As I said, I can talk about religion in polite conversation.  I look at
an analogy with my knowledge of chess.  I know a bit about chess, I
play weekly, at a mediocre to poor level (weakly), which means that if
you've never played chess on a regular basis that I can probably eat
you up.  But there are poor players who can eat me up, and there are
levels and levels of players between me and the grandmasters of chess.
Chess is a simple game played on a board of 64 squares.  Rather a small
analog of our universe.  The rules are clear, I enjoy the game, I've
had a good amount of practice but the game is still quite taxing.  (Oy!)

Religion is like chess, only much more so.  I know a bit about Judaism,
quite less about other religions.  I know a bit about it, and I could
eat up many of you in an argument about the finer points of Judaism.
Sometimes I make pretty astute observations, but they are akin to my
shooting at a target with my eyes closed.  There are levels of students
of religion whose abilities exceed mine to incredible degrees.  The
knowledge of the greatest sages is not less than Awesome.  In their
transcendent wisdom, if I asked them about the facts, they would just
smile and shake their heads.  The answers are aren't simple.

Jewish scholars NEVER wave the Bible.  Jewish scholars study commentaries
of commentaries of the Torah, they study small sections with great devotion
for long periods of time with Rabbis who have spent their entire lives
studying these small sections of the body of Jewish Law.  There are Rabbis
who are experts on various aspects of the Law who serve as authorities
for people who need decisions.  They are only judges, humans who aren't
infallible, they're just more qualified than you or I.  I tell ya, it's
complicated stuff!

Anyway, I see Christians waving their bibles telling me that the
scripture says this and that.  I don't believe in the New Testament at
all, they can't use that as the basis of Truth for me.  They take the
Old Testament, and they say that all this stuff applies to their
savior, Jesus Christ.  That might be good for them, but for a Jew to
worship other than the one God is the most nastiest of crimes.  The
first commandments.  I'll tell ya, God told me that the Messiah is
coming.  When he comes, I'll know.  I don't know, so he ain't come
yet.  Second coming?  I don't remember seeing that, I'm still waiting
for the first coming.

My religious beliefs are based on my upbringing and my limited
studies.  I like Judaism, but I don't go forcing it on people.  Judaism
isn't perfect as I understand it.  That might be Judaism's fault, it
might be mine, that's ok.  I like it better than the other choices.  If
you aren't Jewish, that's fine with Judaism, we aren't recruiting.  I
can't help but associate the classical Christian religious
proselytizers with the drones from Amway and est and the rest of the
wrecking crews.  Each organization is allegedly based in the good and
beautiful, but part of their charter is to self-replicate.  And they
ALL believe that "we are right, and they are wrong (or at least, less
right)."

Anyways, there's all these guys yelling about brimstones and stuff,
saying that my ass is gonna fry in hell if I don't do it their way.  I
try to be a good boy, I'm nice to people and most animals and I try to
leave the forest cleaner than it was when I found it.  When I die if
I go to judgement and one of God's G-men tells me that I blew my chance
to worship the right one when I had it, well then, I'll just suck in
my gut and go where they send me with the good and righteous people of
this Earth who all blew it too.

	I'll see ya there.
	Andy Tannenbaum   Bell Labs  Whippany, NJ   (201) 386-6491