From: utzoo!decvax!harpo!seismo!hao!menlo70!sytek!zehntel!zinfandel!steve Newsgroups: net.misc Title: Re: Religous Matters - (nf) Article-I.D.: zehntel.732 Posted: Wed Feb 2 13:20:58 1983 Received: Sun Feb 6 05:12:58 1983 #R:ucbvax:-62900:zinfandel:8200015:000:2316 zinfandel!steve Feb 2 08:46:00 1983 Both Descartes and St. Anselm proposed such "ontological" arguments to prove God's existence. The proof that Wayne summarized was that of Descartes: "...whenever I choose to think of the First and Supreme Being, and as it were bring out the idea of him from the treasury of my mind, I must necessarily ascribe to him all perfections, even if I do not at the moment enumerate them all, or attend to each. This necessity clearly assures that, when later on I observe that existence is a perfection, I am justified in concluding that the First and Supreme Being exists" -Descartes, Philosophical Writings St. Anselm, on the other hand, took a slightly different tack. Rather than depending on the notion that existence is perfection, St. Anselm starts with the fact that we understand the idea of a supreme being. "And whatever is understood exists in the understanding. And assuredly that, than which nothing greater can be conceived, cannot exist in the understanding alone. For, suppose it exists in the understanding alone: then it can be conceived to exist in reality; which is greater. Therefore, if that, than which nothing greater can be conceived, exists in the understanding alone, the very being, than which nothing greater can be conceived, is one, than which a greater can be conceived. But obviously this is impossible. Hence, there is no doubt that there exists a being, than which nothing greater can be conceived..." -St. Anselm, Basic Writings To paraphrase: 1. If the greatest possible being does not exist, then there is a possibility that some being does exist which is greater than the greatest possible being. 2. It is impossible that some being exists which is greater than the greatest possible being Therefore: 3. The greatest possible being exists. Of course, both arguments have been well refuted throughout the ages. The best-known refutation of the Descartes argument was made by Kant, on the grounds that "existence" is not a real predicate. Others argue that existence is not a perfection. St. Anselm is refuted by Gaunilo on the grounds that St. Anselm's argument can be used to prove too much, such as that a greatest island possible exists, or a greatest anything possible exists. I think that I think, therefore I think that I am, Steve Nelson