From: utzoo!decvax!harpo!seismo!hao!menlo70!sytek!zehntel!zinfandel!steve
Newsgroups: net.misc
Title: Re: Religous Matters - (nf)
Article-I.D.: zehntel.732
Posted: Wed Feb  2 13:20:58 1983
Received: Sun Feb  6 05:12:58 1983

#R:ucbvax:-62900:zinfandel:8200015:000:2316
zinfandel!steve    Feb  2 08:46:00 1983

Both Descartes and St. Anselm proposed such "ontological" arguments
to prove God's existence.  The proof that Wayne summarized was that
of Descartes:
	"...whenever I choose to think of the First and Supreme Being,
	and as it were bring out the idea of him from the treasury of
	my mind, I must necessarily ascribe to him all perfections, even
	if I do not at the moment enumerate them all, or attend to each.
	This necessity clearly assures that, when later on I observe
	that existence is a perfection, I am justified in concluding
	that the First and Supreme Being exists"
		-Descartes, Philosophical Writings

St. Anselm, on the other hand, took a slightly different tack. Rather
than depending on the notion that existence is perfection, St. Anselm starts
with the fact that we understand the idea of a supreme being.
	"And whatever is understood exists in the understanding.
	And assuredly that, than which nothing greater can be conceived,
	cannot exist in the understanding alone. For, suppose it exists
	in the understanding alone: then it can be conceived to exist
	in reality; which is greater.
	  Therefore, if that, than which nothing greater can be conceived,
	exists in the understanding alone, the very being, than which
	nothing greater can be conceived, is one, than which a greater
	can be conceived. But obviously this is impossible. Hence, there
	is no doubt that there exists a being, than which nothing
	greater can be conceived..."
		-St. Anselm, Basic Writings

To paraphrase:
	1. If the greatest possible being does not exist, then
	there is a possibility that some being does exist which
	is greater than the greatest possible being.
	2. It is impossible that some being exists which is greater
	than the greatest possible being
		Therefore:
	3. The greatest possible being exists.

Of course, both arguments have been well refuted throughout the ages.
The best-known refutation of the Descartes argument was made by Kant,
on the grounds that "existence" is not a real predicate.
Others argue that existence is not a perfection.
St. Anselm is refuted by Gaunilo on the grounds that St. Anselm's argument
can be used to prove too much, such as that a greatest island possible
exists, or a greatest anything possible exists.

	I think that I think, therefore I think that I am,
	Steve Nelson