From: utzoo!decvax!ucbvax!CAD:ucbesvax!turner Newsgroups: net.politics Title: Re: The Roots of Socialism are rotted - (nf) Article-I.D.: ucbcad.732 Posted: Mon Feb 28 18:29:21 1983 Received: Tue Mar 1 06:55:54 1983 #R:houti:-21400:ucbesvax:7100006:000:1971 ucbesvax!turner Feb 26 00:28:00 1983 As someone who knows "those views" all too well, I don't accept your apology. As for the "far less flawed" -- let us say perfect, shall we? -- vision of Ayn Rand, I beg to differ. The main difference that I see is that Ayn Rand writes a hell of a lot better than you. So much so, that I was completely taken in for many years. Tom, life is not as axiomatic as all this. Nor are you as rigorous axiomatic as you think you are. When you asked what it was "that without it, one would be better off dead?", I had to laugh. I'm sorry, but I did. Ayn Rand had the guts to admit mortality into the discussion -- doesn't one of her characters in "Atlas Shrugged" define his value system in terms of his own death? (Ellis Wyatt, I think.) But what is mortality to you? Just another value (albeit negative) among many to "freely choose from"? What it came down for Ayn Rand, I think, is that death scared her into silence. She got older, lost her looks; too many cigarettes, perhaps, not getting enough writing done. Not able to milk any more life out of her "axiomatic" approach to it all. I was a fervid Objectivist for more years than I care to count, but when she died recently, I thought: there goes one big coward. She never could admit to be wrong on any point, on the need to review and start over on something. Some philosopher! What it comes down to for me is that I want to live for awhile (until I get sick of it, anyway) and see what happens. A Socialist Tyranny could put a damper on my plans, but I don't think that a revocation of property rights in itself would send me weeping off the local skyscraper. Being better off dead is an interesting concept, but I have trouble carrying it very far. Perhaps you could make a contribution to net.philosophy on this point? Or net.suicide? Another Altruist-Collectivist Pig, Michael Turner