From: utzoo!laura Newsgroups: net.misc Title: Re: Rationality requires Determinism! and other goodies Article-I.D.: utzoo.2324 Posted: Sun Aug 1 01:28:27 1982 Received: Sun Aug 1 01:28:27 1982 References: watmath.3162 Hmm. I see a problem in semantics here. (This is just as bad a Newcomb's paradox, guys, and remember i was willing to take both boxes if only to flaunt my belief in free will!). This is what my brain come up with as an instant definition of free will: that at a given time my actions arise from my own nature and ability to make decisions. deterministic universe: that at any given time the universe is fixed (static) past, present, and future. of course, this is probably an oversimplification, but i think that it covers the essentials. Now, can anyone explain to me in simple terms, how the two can be *both* possible? (If you can, and you are a gnostic, then you have a very good chance of converting this atheist (Mondays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays) /agnostic (Fridays, Saturdays, Sundays and when I wax theological) for it was this very question that convinced me that my nice religion had serious holes in it. But the explanation had better be good! Take it this way: I am hungry tonight and decide that I want a pizza for dinner. The only pizza parlors which are open now and within easy walking distance are a) Frank Vetere's and b) Poretta's. Now I *like* the way FV puts pineapple on pizza... and it's closer... but true to form, I go to Poretta's because I prefer to support independant restaurants run by their owners over franchises. Fine. I have made a decision which is (as far as I am concerned) exercising my free will. Lo and behold, before i get to Poretta's I am run over by a truck and end up in hospital. As it turns out, if I had gone to FV I would not have been hospitalized. It seems I made the wrong decision. (Except that I meet person X who has connections with Lucasfilms and as a result of this I get to work with neat, fancy graphic equipment for as long as I want to....) Now, if the universe is fixed, then I have not made any decision at all, but have only gone through the motions of "making a decision" which entails doing something, much as a marionette on a string, which I was destined to do, all the while making a good deal of racket about this "meaningless noise" ... DECISION MAKING... which isnt the same thing at all...therefore I have no free will. This is not the same as claiming that there are people (who have listened to me rant and rave about supporting the small business man who is likely to be my neighbour as opposed to the corporation of nameless faces) who could predict that I would go to Poretta's on general principles, nor the same as saying that it was impossible for me to go to FV -- for I have eaten there on many occasions. The rand corporation makes lots of predictions, some of which come true, and still dont claim that the universe is deterministic (last I heard, anyway). If the universe if determined, I cant see that I made a decision and if I cant make decisons, then I dont have free will... so you get one or the other but not both. laura creighton decvax!utzoo!laura p.s. would it wreck your argument if I decided to flip a coin to decide what restaurant to go to?