From: utzoo!watmath!cbostrum Newsgroups: net.misc Title: Rationality requires Determinism! and other goodies Article-I.D.: watmath.3162 Posted: Sat Jul 31 22:19:52 1982 Received: Sat Jul 31 23:52:15 1982 More re: determinism. In Jim Gardners essay, we find him talking about absolute time ("3 seconds"). Thats pretty hard to do in that context. We also have him saying that "You can predict what you can do". This is not plausible either. In fact, it has been shown by Karl Popper and D.M. MacKay that in a traditional deterministic system, it is impossible for internal agents to predict with certainty what the behavior of the system will be, even although it is in fact determined (in the sense that an outside observer could perform the prediction with arbitrary precision). This has been taken by MacKay as an argument for "free will". (He, by the way, is a devout Xtian). More re: Free Will. I fully fail to understand Brad Templetons claims about the things that are impossible in a deterministic situation. Even if this were so (and choice, thought, reason, etc were impossible) crying about it doesnt establish Free Will, does it. Not only that, but I have never been able to understand how the absense of determinism alone could provide Free Will. As far as I can see, it would just be randomness, caprice. Even if we could control this randomness, as Brad claims, this just means we get a unioning of the features of determinism and randomness, and I cannot see Free Will in this at all. However, I would categorically deny (as a 30% devils advocate) that thought, choice, rationality, etc. were impossible in a deterministic environment. In fact, I think they make much more sense there than anywhere else! This to me seems perfectly clear, but I would love to be dissuaded.