From: utzoo!decvax!ucbvax!poli-sci Newsgroups: fa.poli-sci Title: Poli-Sci Digest V2 #137 Article-I.D.: ucbvax.7448 Posted: Fri May 28 14:40:45 1982 Received: Sat May 29 08:24:54 1982 >From JoSH@RUTGERS Fri May 28 14:35:15 1982 Poli-Sci Digest Fri 28 May 82 Volume 2 Number 137 Contents: Atom Bombs (2 msgs) Leftist Agonistes (3 msgs) Don't Let's Get Buffaloed ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 25 May 1982 2154-PDT From: CAULKINS at USC-ECL Subject: Atom Bombs On Japan [my apologies to ARMS-D people on this list who have seen a similar message from me there] The first use of nuclear weapons against civilians with no warning at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was one of the most immoral acts in history. Far better to have put the weapons aside and not to have given the world such an awsome example of their power and our cruelty. This of course would not have prevented the introduction of nuclear weapons, but it would have delayed it. Unfortunately we Americans are by nature activists; we want to solve the problem NOW and almost automatically reject solutions requiring patience. There were, of course, many courses of action open to us other than invasion. Here's one of them: Japan has only one indigenous mineral resource - coal. By a simple blockade we could have brought all Japanese industrial (and military) operations to a halt. This would have taken more time than the course we chose, but would have resulted in far fewer casualties on both sides. ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 1982 1411-EDT From: Bill HofmannSubject: Bomb Attacks We had to drop the bomb: ----------------------- Well, as we all know, Jim, there were alternatives to dropping the bombs on occupied targets. However, the military chose Hiroshima and Nagasaki because they were virgin targets, ideal for bomb effect studies (see the film Atomic Cafe). A point of interest: the Russians agreed to stay out of the Pacific theater until August of 1945. If the Russians HAD entered the Pacific War in an offensive capability to a large degree, there would have had to have been the same sort of power-sharing that there was in Europe. Some analysts have suggested that that was why the US felt it necessary to end the Pacific war dramatically and with finality BEFORE August. -Bill ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 1982 0921-PDT From: Paul Dietz Subject: Persecution of Leftists I am amused when people who advocate massive coercion by the government get upset when the government coerces them. ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 1982 1511-EDT (Wednesday) From: Robert.Frederking at CMU-10A (C410RF60) Subject: Persecuted Nazis Maybe I'm ignorant, but I can't recall any incident where the government has done anything to the Nazis other than deny them parade permits (which they usually get after a court fight). Are there in fact such cases? I don't think the government is afraid of the Nazis, whereas it appears to worry a lot about leftist subversives, presumably because they are a more real threat to the status quo. The other major news I can recall hearing about Nazis are cases where the government has been lax on European Nazi war criminals. As for the KKK, they certainly have been heavily monitored, but then again, they have made a practice of beating, threatening, and some- times killing people that they don't like. This would (to me) justify FBI interference. Tell me, how many people have the Socialist Workers killed? Or even beat the crap out of? They are being harassed for advocating unpopular economics and politics, not for committing crimes. In like manner, FBI watching of the SDS when they were burning down campus ROTC facilities seems appropriate. Also, is there any evidence that a right-wing parallel of SWP (the John Birch society, for instance) has been molested for purely First Amendment guaranteed activities? I doubt it. ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 1982 1411-EDT From: Bill Hofmann Subject: Right wing, minority On the scope and direction of government harassement: ---------------------------------------------------- To Jim McGrath: Yes, I realize that the KKK and the Nazis were targets of some level of FBI harassment (in fact, although I don't remember, I may have mentioned that in my earlier message). My position has always been that the government has no right to interfere with the freedom of expression of ANY group. However, you must remember that the actions of the KKK have been on the whole violent (that is, lynching, murder, rape) rather than constructive (voter registration drives, freedom rides, etc.). In addition, you may or may not know that government infiltrators often led violence against blacks, with no penalty. Note that infiltrators of leftist groups often were strong advocates of violence as well. The scope of harassment of dissidents on the left, however, has been much larger than those on the right. I don't know of any city that has a ``Black'' (for fascist) squad, but most large cities have or had a ``Red Squad'' which spied on anti-war and civil rights groups, and more recently, on anti-nuclear groups. States have also infiltrated and harassed anti-nuke groups (the most sterling example being the state of New Hampshire). As if that weren't enough, private security groups (including the wierdos of the US Labor Party) spy on and have infiltrated left groups, often on contract to businesses. Consider also the actions of grand juries around the country. Empowered to call witnesses, they often are used (Nixon was an enthusiast about this) to harass leftists. When investigating some act, they'll call people to testify, typically asking them to name all their friends, their political affiliations and what they did for the past n years (in detail), in other words, to go on fishing expeditions. Typically, if you refuse to testify, they'll grant you immunity from prosecution and force you to, or face imprisonment for the term of the grand jury (usually ~18 months or so). This has happened in the past few years to a good number of radical and socialist feminists. As for affecting only a small minority of the population, if about 1/2 million is small, then OK (that is roughly the number of people with some file on them for non-criminal reasons). The number of political dissidents in ANY country (including the USSR) is a small minority of the population. As for redress of grievances of those harassed, I'd disagree that the system inevitably works. No one would know ANYTHING about COINTELPRO and the harassment of the civil rights movement unless a group of people hadn't broken into a Pennsylvania FBI office, stealing loads of documents and forcing the disclosure of many more. The worst of all possible institutions: -------------------------------------- While you may be right, APPLE, that ``our (western) institutions are the worst possible ones, except for all the others,'' that doesn't let us off the hook, or imply that our system isn't structurally wrong. ------------------------------ Date: 27 May 1982 0956-PDT From: WILKINS at SRI-AI (Wilkins ) Subject: Buffalos At least our government is spending its time and money on important things. . . From: Robert W. Kerns While reading today's Boston Glob... Interior buffalo Reaganized Reuter WASHINGTON -- The buffalo that has been looking to the left for 132 years on the emblem of the Interior Department has been redesigned and turned to the right to emphasize President Ronald Reagan's conservative philosophy. Reagan said at a reception for the American Retail Federation on Thursday that Interior Secretary James Watt had given him a lapel button showing the change. ------------------------------ End of POLI-SCI Digest - 30 - -------