From: utzoo!decvax!cca!mwm@Okc-Unix@sri-unix Newsgroups: net.micro Title: the fortune 32:16 Article-I.D.: sri-unix.3195 Posted: Thu Sep 9 21:09:34 1982 Received: Fri Sep 10 06:39:31 1982 From: Mike MeyerThe first copy of this apparently got lost, so here we go again: The Fortune 32:16 is not a hackers machine? That's great, but then why is it running a hackers operating system? That is what Unix ultimately is: a hackers operating system; or, as a local IBM systems hacker put it `a diddlers operating system.' It provides lots of tools for getting things done, and you can probably get 90% of any job done using the available shell tools in a very short amount of time. After that, you can spend a lot of time on the other 10%, and have it be perfect. This is actually an advantage of some monolithic systems that run on blue boxes: with those, the problem is finding the one way that will get more than 50% of the job done, and then being able to live with that. None of the above OS's are suitable for turnkey computer systems. With any of them, the naive (and even reasonably experienced) user will need a wizard standing around to help them. On the monoliths to point out the one way to do the job, and on Unix to decide which funny glyph to type on the screen to get the most out of the system. Unix most especially has a problem with funny glyphs. Before I would even consider turning a new user loose on a Unix system untutored, I would change the command names from their current, highly mnemonic flavors: cat, rm, mv, cd, etc. Also, the high information content in the flags -a, -v and -l would have to be fixed. [Sorry 'bout the long flame, but I think I needed it for the below] >From what I saw of the 32:16, Fortune hasn't done anything about fixing the commands. Admitedly, I couldn't look at many of the commands, as the system I saw didn't have the `extra commands' package that had things like ps in it. It is possible to fix these problems on Unix, as somebody (The Naval Postgraduate School?) mentioned having done this to the 400+ commands on their system. A cursory inspection of the CRDS Unos system indicates that they have done the same thing. The 32:16 was running some kind of menu system when I first got to it, which somebody had worked very hard on so that you could not get from it to the shell accidentally. If this is the shell the system runs by default when you first buy it, then the good folks at Fortune have found a reasonably solution to the problem with the command set. As a matter of fact, they have found the only feasable one I know of. Would somebody out there let me know if this is true or not? For some minor points: The 32:16 is nowhere near being the first turnkey system. I think the IBM PC was out a little bit earlier. I don't know if it is a turnkey system or not, so let's discount it. That leave Radio Shack. They have been selling turnkey systems for four years (that long already?) now. That this is a good idea is shown by how many TRS-80's have been sold. Obviously, the 32:16 is a completely different class of machine from Radio Shack's. On comparing the 32:16 to the IBM PC. First, my comment was not that they were comparable, but that buying an IBM PC with coherent was probably the best way to get a Unix system on a desktop. This should not imply that said machine would be the best Unix system you could put on your desk. Something tells me that the 11/730 would have to be given that title (so far - the newer 68000's could change that). As for pure speed, the IBM PC w/ coherent is faster than an 11/23. This makes it a quite adaquate single user system. I think that the IBM PC and the 32:16 are both in the range where memory will be the bottleneck, not pure processor speed. Also, the speed of the two machines seem to be close enough that you will be able to hang more users off the machine you can put more memory in. I think the IBM PC wins that race, but I'm not sure. Once again, would somebody out there give me the missing info? Lastly, for micro computer unix systems, if you are worried about processor speed, you have to consider Zenix. Said z8000 system is faster than an 11/44. share and enjoy, mike