Originally posted by: utzoo!decvax!ucbvax!sf-lovers
Posted: Sun Dec 5 08:29:12 1982
Received: Mon Dec 6 03:09:10 1982
>From SFL@SRI-CSL Sun Dec 5 08:07:04 1982
Reply-To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL
SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 5 Dec 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 97
Books - juvenile SF
Themes - shrinking
Query - decompression
Radio - Dr. Demento, A Canticle for Leibowitz
T.V. - Star Trek
Movies - Star Wars / TESB the Other, etc.
Date: 4 Dec 1982 21:48:11-EST
From: David-J-Aronson-H at CMU-EE-AMPERE at CMU-10A
Subject: shrinking and kids sf
Re both shrinking AND kid's sf books:
One of the books I have not seen mentioned, but which fits
into both these categories is "Fantastic Voyage", by Asimov. As I
recall (though I'm not quite sure; I read it in elementary school), it
was about some bunch of people shrunk by some corporation and put into
a tiny sub-like contraption to remove a blood-clot from the brain of
some important person in the corporation.
However, one of the people shrunk was actually working for
"the other side" (some other corporation), and tried to kill the
others. A good kid's sf book, maybe even ok later if bored...
Date: 4 Dec 1982 0628-PST
From: Henry W. Miller
Subject: Dr. Demento
Does anyone have any information on when the good Dr. appears
on radio here in Northern California? I can't seem to find him
anywhere, and I need a Spike Jones fix with a Tom Lehrer chaser.
Date: 1 Dec 1982 1159-PST
Subject: Decompression and Canticle for Leibowitz
From: WMartin at Office-8 (Will Martin)
To second GMeredith's pointer, there has been an extensive discussion
going on for well over a week now on the SPACE mailing list about
minimal spacesuits, the effects of decompression, and related topics.
I recommend SPACE V3 #60 especially; there is a long and detailed
submission from David Smith on the effects of decompression and the
timeframes involved. You can get back issues and/or be added to the
mailing list by messaging "Space-Request at MIT-MC". I think highly
of this list, and recommend it to anyone interested in space topics; I
would think that this would include anyone who reads SF-Lovers.
However, I note that the people here who I distribute SFL to are not
nearly as interested in SPACE. This may be evidence of the classical
fantasy vs. hard SF dichotomy...
On to something completely different... I have heard three episodes
so far of "A Canticle for Leibowitz" and recommend it. [By the way,
the name is pronounced "leeb-oh-wits", and I am convinced that, if
pronounced that way, it should be spelled "Liebowitz" -- "ie" instead
of "ei". However, both earlier submissions here and the program guide
from the NPR station carrying it locally spell it "ei", so I'll stick
with that. Anybody have the book handy to check? I gave my copy away
years ago when I passed my SF collection on.]
Anyway, it has been quite elegantly done, with good voices for the
narration and characters. The music is provided by a college group
who do excellent liturgical chants. It has moved quite slowly during
these first three episodes, which is fine with me
-- there has been time to evoke the sense of the surroundings and the
mood has been well established. Each episode has begun with a degree
of explication, so you will not be lost if you start listening after
some have been aired.
Date: 1 Dec 82 09:40-EST (Wed)
From: Steven Gutfreund
Subject: re: pressureless space suits
I started up this discussion in SPACE digest about 2 weeks ago. It has
been going strong since then. The definitive answer should be in the
latest issue (written by chip weems). Briefly, the answer is: no, for
extended EVA's it is not practical nor safe.
There are several SF stories that use pressureless space suits (or
just the skin as a suit) High Justice: by Jerry Pournelle, Dreamtime:
?? 2001: Arthur Clarke.
- Steve Gutfreund
Date: 4 Dec 1982 1956-PST
From: Henry W. Miller
Subject: Explosive Decompression and other appetizing things...
If you want a better example of what a nasty explosive
decompression MIGHT look like, pick up the March 1983 (# 162) of Green
Lantern. It should be available at your favorite comic store now.
Also in the DC universe, Katar Hol, a member of the elite Hawk
Patrol of the planet Thanagar (which orbits Polaris) has had his body
specially treated to be immune to the cold and lack of atsmosphere for
a period of several minutes.
This brings up another point: in the previous debate over
shrinking, it became obvious that many of you are also into comics.
Do you think that there is sufficient interest to generate a comic
Date: 4 Dec 1982 1730-PST
Subject: coming to you again....
So soon? A few quick notes:
Stardates: I have seen current dates (e.g., December 30, 1980) shown
as stardates in things like tech manuals published for fans by either
Bantam or Ballantine. The format is yymm.dd, I believe. The two digits
used of the year, are of course, the last two. Don't ask me what one
does when referring to another century.
Wizard of Oz: I have heard of other comparisons to WOZ of such movies
as TRON. Draw your own parallels as you please.
Death Star: I believe it WAS mentioned in the movie; when the DS is
preparing to destroy Yavin (and the rebel base), a technician
announces "The Death Star has cleared the planet-- The Death Star has
cleared the planet..." Vader replies, "You may fire when ready."
(added that for effect) "commence primary ignition..."
Date: 4 Dec 1982 0638-PST
From: Henry W. Miller
Subject: Star Trek
OK, I muffed up. I meant to type V instead of X, OK? So sue
In any event, on the question of the title of "The Savage
Curtain". Well it was a good title, and I suspect that many folk did
not catch the meaning unless they grew up in a show business family as
Going on stage is always going "before the curtain". In many
cases, the curtain can indeed be a savage one.
In this case, Kirk, Spock, Lincoln and Surak were forced,
along with their "evil" counterparts to play out the roles of good and
evil before an alien audience, and the threat of death. Truly, a
Date: 3 Dec 82 14:10:31-PST (Fri)
From: hplabs!hpda!gk (Gregg B. Kellogg) at Ucb-C70
Subject: The Other
Another thought on Vader being "The Other."
What other SW character is as effective at removing the high command
of the Empire Navy?
Personally though, my vote is for Boba Fett
Date: 3 Dec 82 22:00:33-EST (Fri)
From: Gene Spafford
I'm glad to see my last suggestion got people thinking along
new...er... angles? Now I'd like to expand in new directions.
Instead of trying to second-guess who "the other" is, let's make some
noise about who we'd like it to be! I mean, name some of you favorite
characters from song and legend (etc.) and place them in the right
Imagine ET with a light saber battling the evil Darth. Could even be
symbolic - Darth represents the agency trying to colect on ET's phone
I could continue, but I'll wait and see what everyone else comes up
Not sane, Gene
Date: 3 Dec 82 11:31-EDT (Fri)
From: the Golux
Subject: TESB scenarios again
Well, I just went to TESB again last night, keeping my eyes open for
things which had been mentioned in this list. Here are some of my
Item: I was watching very closely all scenes with Boba Fett (sp?),
and I was unable to spot any instance when he was around and
Vader 'was not aware of him.'
Item: Boba Fett did NOT fly off into a pretty sunset with heroic
music. He flew off in a slightly different direction, to the
tune of engine roar.
Item: I didn't see the chap carrying an ice cream freezer, but that's
probably because I forgot to look.
Item: In the tableau at the end, with Luke, Leia, and a robot
watching through the port as Lando and Chewbacca fly off
in the Falcon, Luke's arm about Leia's shoulder DOES have
much more of a 'brother-sister' air about it than one of
a more sultry relationship.
Item: While I seem to recall Boba Fett being claimed to 'always
get his man' (sort of a galactic Mountie?), I DIDN'T see
it said in TESB. This may be an oversight on my part...
Item: I wasn't able to see much facial resemblance between
the Emperor and Obi-wan, but the voices ARE somewhat
similar. I like the idea, already expressed by someone
in this list, of these two being clones. The OB-1 name
is a nice touch.
So: I will change my scenario a bit. Vader is still a clone of the
REAL Skywalker (Luke's dad), whom he killed. Han and Luke are
brothers, sons by different (mothers &/| Skywalker clones). Leia MAY
BE Luke's sister, therefore able to ... ah, 'get involved' with Han
without offending anyone's morals, since Han and Luke have different
mothers. (I won't touch the genetic problems possible.)
A possible ending: Han and Leia as rulers of the galaxy, by
acclamation, with Luke as a sort of 'heir apparent,' or possibly
Champion as well. Lando and Chewbacca fit in there somewhere, too.
And Yoda and Obi-wan spend the next five decades arguing over whether
Yoda won their last chess game by default due to Obi-wan's
Date: 4 December 1982 03:00 est
From: Schauble.Multics at MIT-MULTICS
Subject: The Clone wars
>From Skef Wholey at CMU-CS-C
Hey, people! Why have you all forgotten the CLONE WARS? I'll bet
good money that there's at least one clone in the Luke, Darth, Obi
Wan, and Luke's dad group. To explain Darth being Luke's daddy: Luke
could be a clone of Darth, or Darth could be a clone of Luke's real
dad (whoever he was).
I don't think anyone has yet mentioned the obvious cloning
possibility: Darth Vader and Obi-Wan are clones, splitting the duality
of human nature between them. In the climactic moment, Vader and
Obi-Wan are reunited. Hmmm... Seems I recall a Star Trek episode like
Date: Saturday, 4 December 1982 03:42-EST
From: "GWA at TOPSB c/o"
Subject: Dr. Who, HHGTTG, Star Wars
Re: Dr. Who
If my information is correct the next Dr. Who season does not begin
broadcast until next month hence the list is still up to date. I do
however have the following information.
Story 1: 'ARC OF INFINITY'
by Johnny Byrne, Director Ron Jones
Guest artists: Leonard Sachs as Lord President &
Colin Baker as Maxil
Setting: Amsterdam & Gallifrey
Story 2: 'SNAKEDANCE'
by Christopher Bailey, Director Fiona Cumming
Guest artists: John Carson as Ambril
Colette O'Neil as Tanha
Setting: The planet 'Manussa'
For those interested, a very good fan club is
ZZ9 PLURAL Z ALPHA
23 Northbrook Road
Aldershot, Hants GUH 3HE UK
the membership is a bit expensive (about $10 after conversion)
but if you are interested in any merchandise (like the two albums)
it is WELL worth the money.
Re: Star Wars
1) What if Obi-Wan meant that Darth (the dark essence of Luke's
father) murdered Mr. Skywalker (the good part of his soul)?
2) Another topic of discussion, what is the meaning of the following
Yoda: Run! Yes. A Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware
of the dark side. Anger...fear...aggression. The dark side
of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you
in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever
will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as
it did Obi-Wan's apprentice.
Luke: Vader. Is the dark side stronger?
Yoda: No...no...no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.
Luke: But how am I to know the good side from the bad?
Yoda: You will know. When you are calm, at peace, passive. A Jedi
uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.
Luke: But tell me why I can't...
Yoda: No, no, there is no why. Nothing more will I teach you today.
Clear your mind of questions. Mmm. Mmmmmm.
Luke: There is something not right here. I feel cold, death.
Yoda: That place...is strong with the dark side of the Force. A
domain of evil it is. In you must go.
Luke: What's in there?
Yoda: Only what you take with you.
[ Luke begins to strap on his weapons belt]
Yoda: Your weapons...you will not need them.
[ He takes it anyway. Luke moves into the almost total darkness of the
wet and slimy cave. The youth can barely make out the edge of the
passage. Holding his lit saber before him, he says a lizard crawling
up the side of the cave and a snake wrapped around the branches of the
tree. Luke draws a deep breath, then pushes deeper into the cave.
The space widens around him, but he feels that rather than sees it.
His sword casts the only light as he peers into the darkness. It is
very quiet here.
Then a loud hiss! Darth Vader appears across the blackness,
illuminated by his own just-ignighted lasar sword. Immediately, he
charges Luke, saber held high. He is upon the youth in seconds, but
Luke sidesteps perfectly and slashes at Vader with his sword.
Vader is decapacitated. His helmet-encased head flies from his
shoulders as as his body disappears into the darkness. The metallic
banging of the helmet fills the cave as Vader's head spins and
bounces, smashes on the floor, and finally stops. For an instant it
rests on the floor, then it cracks vertically. The black helmet and
breath mask fall away to reveal...Luke's head.
Across the space, the standing Luke gasps at the sight, wide-eyed in
The decapitated head fades away, as in a vision.]
[ copywrite Lucasfilm Ltd. ]
Date: 4 Dec 1982 0619-PST
From: Henry W. Miller
Subject: The "Other"
Ok, for once and for all, let's get it straight: It
was not "The Other", it was "Another";
OBI-WAN: "That boy was our last hope..."
YODA: "No, there is another..."
But then again, another WHAT? Another hope, or another
Date: 4 December 1982 13:26-EST
From: Christopher C. Stacy
Subject: The Other, Darth Vader, and all that...
I think this message, from SFL PM V1#126 (SW Issue 6), pretty well
sums up how much we are likely to figure out about the next SW plot.
------------Begin Forwarded Message------------
Date: 28 May 1980 00:53 edt
From: JTurner.Coop at MIT-Multics
Subject: TESB confusion
In the interest of having some fun,here are some more possible ideas
to totally confuse you. multiple choice, check one
1) the emperor is: luke obiwan leia r2d2
2) darth vader is: luke obiwan the emperor c3p0
yoda luke's mother
3) han solo has: the force frostbite a hell of a headache
all of the above none of the above
some of the above
4) luke's father is: dead alive and well and living on Tatooine
han solo an ex-space shuttle trainee
explain why Lucas will make gobs of money with very little effort.
Subject: Henry W. Miller The Other, etc.
Date: 4-Dec-82 11:25-PST
From: ZELLICH at OFFICE-3
Subject: The Emperor and Obi-Wan
Also speaking of Obi-Wan, several people have noted that in certain
"Revenge" trailers he appears solid. This has been clearly stated by
both Lucas and the ILM people who made the RotJ presentation at
WorldCon to be a result of using uncompleted film in the trailers.
They haven't yet introduced the effects that will make the
solid-filmed image appear ghostly. Lucas and others have stated
firmly that Obi-Wan is \still/ an ethereal figure in RotJ.
Date: Saturday, 4 December 1982 14:49-PST
From: Jonathan Alan Solomon
Subject: another other
Emperor (to Vader): "The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi."
-- and --
Vader (to luke): "I am your father"
do not match. Either the Emperor or Vader are lying. If you try to
tell me that the Emperor is speaking in the objective for "special
effects", I'm going to sick that line which was sicked on my
possibility on you: "That's just too complicated..."
Dispite what everybody speculates, there is a staggering contradiction
here. Also, whether or not Vader is Luke's father is IRRELEVANT. To
make this story come out happy (and to keep Luke in the protagonist
role), Luke *has* to defeat the Emperor and end the Empire. Whether or
not he also turns Vader into a "Good witch" from a "Bad witch" is
irrelevant (shades of "Wizard of OZ") to the total plot of the movie,
and I think if we try to look closely into the family situation of the
characters we will get hopelessly lost in an entanglement which has no
business in a SF movie as good as Star Wars.
On the other hand, it *may* be that (here's where I get speculative):
If Vader created the Emperor (in the image of Obi-Wan, with evil
tendencies); then Vader has to either face this or be destroyed. If
he faces this, he becomes a "good witch", a Jedi, and the Emperor goes
away in a puff of smoke (yeah, too spooky for me too). I'm betting
that Darth Vader (Dark Father, or Dark Lord is the idiomatic
translation of the entire name) is completely evil and too far gone to
be "saved", thus Luke (son or not) must destroy him and his evil image
(the Emperor) (there that's much simpler, and easier to explain in 2
or 3 hours in a movie).
The Emperor is merely a tool of Evil created by Darth Vader to take
control of the empire. As long as Vader is "subject" to the Emperor's
wishes, people feel sorry for him and accept him "just doing his job".
They try to defeat the Emperor, and leave Darth Vader alone (well, up
until now, that is). Also, Vader himself (who is
human/compassionate/etc - all the "Good traits") has a better time
accepting these "evil orders" as coming from someone outside him.
Yoda sees through this? Most likely. Obi-Wan knows this? Definitely.
Obi-Wan knows the truth about what happened. Obi-Wan saw Vader create
this evil image of himself and through this realized that Vader knew
his most evil weaknesses. Obi-Wan is no match for Vader in a fight in
the Force. Yoda? Yeah, he's a teacher, and too much of a "true jedi"
to go attacking Vader. Also, Vader doesn't know *all*, I'm not
convinced that Vader even knows Yoda exists (that's one of Vader's
weaknesses). I think that is currently Yoda's advantage, and Yoda is
not going to risk that until it is absolutely necessary.
Vader *did* betray and murder Luke's father. Obi-Wan doesn't lie to
Luke. Lying is an evil trait. If Vader is evil, then it is acceptable
(remember: this is a children's film) for him to Lie. Luke was left at
the end of TESB not knowing which way was up. He was disoriented
(that's typical in the growing up process, everybody can identify with
being disoriented). Vader wanted to get him that way, because he
could be "turned" if he was willing to believe Vader. The "other hope"
is that Luke will get himself straightened out and will know Vader's
weaknesses before Vader learns more about Luke. Only in this way can a
true battle-of-wits be played out.
It is not surprising (to me) that Obi-Wan doesn't see what Yoda sees,
Obi-Wan sees human obsession as being the worst evil trait we (humans)
have, it is obsession that probably caused Vader to turn dark, but the
truth is that obsession with love is good, and obsession with hate is
evil. Luke's current obsession is a good, loving one, and Yoda sees
this possibility before Obi-Wan does (remember, Yoda has a more
objective view of humans, not being one.) Still, Luke has to learn
some things on the field. He must now decide what to do next. His
faith has not failed him, but now his weapon will have to be an
understanding of what is actually going on. He will have to decide
which direction to go in, whether to be a good witch himself or a bad
He has to be a "witch" (in the classical sense of the word) to defeat
Vader, Jedi do not fight unless actually attacked. Luke would not be
able to even PLAN to fight Vader. Yoda is a true Jedi. Yoda has so
much self control that it would be a violation of his religion to
fight Vader, even to put himself in a position where Vader would
attack him. Then after the quest is satisfied, Luke may decide to
become a Jedi, but that's a totally different situation.
End of SF-LOVERS Digest