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Re: 1947--more on ink [message #353758 is a reply to message #353734] Mon, 02 October 2017 21:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quadibloc is currently offline  Quadibloc
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Registered: June 2012
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Senior Member
On Monday, October 2, 2017 at 11:00:04 AM UTC-6, Andreas Eder wrote:

> Interesting; I always thought that chinese ideograms do not have an
> inherent pronunciation apart from their meaning.

That depends on what you mean by "inherent".

A Chinese character stands for a syllable in the Chinese language, not an
idea. It has a specific, fixed, pronounciation in each Chinese dialect - but
it will have a different one in different dialects.

In *Japanese*, it will have _two_ pronounciations; a Japanese version of the
Chinese pronounciation of the syllable, and also the Japanese word with the
same meaning. That's because Japanese uses Chinese words in much the same
way as English uses Greek and Latin words - as components to make bigger and
more complex words.

Chinese characters are not all ideographs. The Chinese writing system is, to
some extent, phonetic.

One has a basic group of characters which may be simple pictures, drawings
to suggest an idea (such as an arrow pointing upwards with the meaning "up"
instead of "arrow"), and combined pictures to suggest ideas (mother + child
= good, sun + moon = bright).

These basic characters are then combined into the most numerous class of
characters, the phonetic compound character, where one element, the _bushou_
or "classifier", relates the class of meaning of the character, and the
other is a character with an unrelated meaning but the same or a similar
pronounciation. (If there are multiple options for that character, a
selection may be made based on meaning, making the boundaries somewhat
fluid.)

John Savard
Re: 1947--more on ink [message #353762 is a reply to message #353758] Tue, 03 October 2017 00:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gene Wirchenko is currently offline  Gene Wirchenko
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Registered: January 2012
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On Mon, 2 Oct 2017 18:54:11 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
wrote:

> On Monday, October 2, 2017 at 11:00:04 AM UTC-6, Andreas Eder wrote:
>
>> Interesting; I always thought that chinese ideograms do not have an
>> inherent pronunciation apart from their meaning.
>
> That depends on what you mean by "inherent".
>
> A Chinese character stands for a syllable in the Chinese language, not an
> idea. It has a specific, fixed, pronounciation in each Chinese dialect - but
> it will have a different one in different dialects.

May have.

> In *Japanese*, it will have _two_ pronounciations; a Japanese version of the
> Chinese pronounciation of the syllable, and also the Japanese word with the
> same meaning. That's because Japanese uses Chinese words in much the same
> way as English uses Greek and Latin words - as components to make bigger and
> more complex words.

It might have more than two pronunciations due to Chinese terms
using a given Hanzi character entering the language at various times.
Occasionally, there is more than one Japanese pronunciation; I do not
know why for this.

> Chinese characters are not all ideographs. The Chinese writing system is, to
> some extent, phonetic.

[snip]

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
Re: 1947--more on ink [message #353773 is a reply to message #353754] Tue, 03 October 2017 05:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mausg is currently offline  mausg
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On 2017-10-02, Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
> "Kerr-Mudd,John" <notsaying@invalid.org> writes:
>
>> Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote in
>> news:87vajx4b5p.fsf@bogus.nodomain.nowhere:
>>
>>> The "Chinaman" (as it was then [1915] customary to say) walked
>>> slowly around my father, gravely looking him up and down, then
>>> walked away down the corridor, saying, "It mean, it mean. Hee hee
>>> hee...it mean...ha ha heee it mean hee heeeeee snigger..."
>>>
>>> Dad never wore the robe again, convincd that it exhibited some
>>> terrible political, racist, sexual or other offensive slogan or
>>> message.
>>>
>>
>> Can it at last be revealed?
>
> Lost in the twisty little passages of time. Dad never learned what
> the characters meant.
>

Is the a book that could be consulted?.. I am aware that there are
several spoken languages in China.


--
greymaus.ireland.ie
Just_Another_Grumpy_Old_Man
Re: 1947--more on ink [message #353775 is a reply to message #353773] Tue, 03 October 2017 07:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quadibloc is currently offline  Quadibloc
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If his father never wore the robe much, there probably is no book with a picture of him wearing the robe in it.

I mean, sure there are Chinese dictionaries, but that doesn't help if you don't have the Chinese text in question available.
Re: 1947--more on ink [message #353776 is a reply to message #353775] Tue, 03 October 2017 09:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mausg is currently offline  mausg
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On 2017-10-03, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> If his father never wore the robe much, there probably is no book with a picture of him wearing the robe in it.
>
> I mean, sure there are Chinese dictionaries, but that doesn't help if you don't have the Chinese text in question available.


I meant in general, as opposed what was painted on that robe. In the
TV series "The big bang", the heroine(?) had a Chinese `thing' tatood
on her arm, which the know-it-all person said meant `Soup'... she
thought it meant something else. As the subject is explored, once
again , the truth ('thing' -> meaning) wriggles away and escapes in
the fog.


--
greymaus.ireland.ie
Just_Another_Grumpy_Old_Man
Re: 1947--more on ink [message #353785 is a reply to message #353758] Tue, 03 October 2017 10:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charles Richmond is currently offline  Charles Richmond
Messages: 2754
Registered: December 2011
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On 10/2/2017 8:54 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Monday, October 2, 2017 at 11:00:04 AM UTC-6, Andreas Eder wrote:
>
>> Interesting; I always thought that chinese ideograms do not have an
>> inherent pronunciation apart from their meaning.
>
> That depends on what you mean by "inherent".
>
> A Chinese character stands for a syllable in the Chinese language, not an
> idea. It has a specific, fixed, pronunciation in each Chinese dialect - but
> it will have a different one in different dialects.
>
> In *Japanese*, it will have _two_ pronunciations; a Japanese version of the
> Chinese pronunciation of the syllable, and also the Japanese word with the
> same meaning. That's because Japanese uses Chinese words in much the same
> way as English uses Greek and Latin words - as components to make bigger and
> more complex words.
>

Indeed, before the French came to dominate Indochina circa the 1600's,
Vietnamese was written using Chinese characters.

There is a small book in the Pelican book series titled _About Chinese_.
This book will *not* teach you the Chinese language, but it gives much
information on the structure and usage of the Chinese language and
Chinese characters.

http://tinyurl.com/yczdenwv


--
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
Re: 1947--more on ink [message #353786 is a reply to message #353785] Tue, 03 October 2017 10:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quadibloc is currently offline  Quadibloc
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Registered: June 2012
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On Tuesday, October 3, 2017 at 8:06:55 AM UTC-6, Charles Richmond wrote:

> Indeed, before the French came to dominate Indochina circa the 1600's,
> Vietnamese was written using Chinese characters.

Yes; the Vietnamese made their own characters from the elements used to build Chinese characters, however - it was called Chu Nom.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%E1%BB%AF_N%C3%B4m

Here you are.

John Savard
Re: 1947--more on ink [message #353787 is a reply to message #353786] Tue, 03 October 2017 10:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charles Richmond is currently offline  Charles Richmond
Messages: 2754
Registered: December 2011
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On 10/3/2017 9:35 AM, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 3, 2017 at 8:06:55 AM UTC-6, Charles Richmond wrote:
>
>> Indeed, before the French came to dominate Indochina circa the 1600's,
>> Vietnamese was written using Chinese characters.
>
> Yes; the Vietnamese made their own characters from the elements used to build Chinese characters, however - it was called Chu Nom.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%E1%BB%AF_N%C3%B4m
>
> Here you are.
>

Some words in Vietnamese are suspiciously close to Cantonese Chinese
words with the same meaning. ISTM that Chinese is sort of the "Latin of
the Orient"... based on the Chinese influence on other area languages.


--
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
Re: 1947--more on ink [message #353791 is a reply to message #353776] Tue, 03 October 2017 11:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: JimP.

On 3 Oct 2017 13:03:39 GMT, mausg@mail.com wrote:

> On 2017-10-03, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>> If his father never wore the robe much, there probably is no book with a picture of him wearing the robe in it.
>>
>> I mean, sure there are Chinese dictionaries, but that doesn't help if you don't have the Chinese text in question available.
>
>
> I meant in general, as opposed what was painted on that robe. In the
> TV series "The big bang", the heroine(?) had a Chinese `thing' tatood
> on her arm, which the know-it-all person said meant `Soup'... she
> thought it meant something else. As the subject is explored, once
> again , the truth ('thing' -> meaning) wriggles away and escapes in
> the fog.

There have been apparent jokes placed on people's arms, etc. who
wanted an 'authentic' Chinese or Japanese tattoo. Some of them say
'tourist', and some are allegedly obscene.
--
Jim
Re: 1947--more on ink [message #353793 is a reply to message #353791] Tue, 03 October 2017 12:59 Go to previous message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 10:31:02 -0500
JimP. <solosam90@gmail.com> wrote:

> There have been apparent jokes placed on people's arms, etc. who
> wanted an 'authentic' Chinese or Japanese tattoo. Some of them say
> 'tourist', and some are allegedly obscene.

'Gullible idiot' was one translation I heard about - seems
practical.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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