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| Re: STB-80 80 Columns card [message #352544 is a reply to message #352519] |
Sat, 16 September 2017 05:41   |
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Originally posted by: R.Kiefer.SPAEM
Jorge wrote:
> I would like to see one of these STB-80 cards, any idea where can I find
> one? Or pictures of it? Or a manual?
>
> All I can find is this:
>
> https://archive.org/stream/1983-stb-products-catalog/...
There is also a PDF of the small catalogue from STB with a picture.
This 80 column card seems to be just another videx clone with a 2kB SRAM
(6116) instead of four 2114 SRAMs and with one EPROM as character
generator instead of two as seen on many other cards.
Probably there is a more luxurious firmware.
- Ralf
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| Re: STB-80 80 Columns card [message #352546 is a reply to message #352544] |
Sat, 16 September 2017 06:36 |
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Originally posted by: Jorge
On Saturday, September 16, 2017 at 11:41:33 AM UTC+2, Ralf Kiefer wrote:
> Jorge wrote:
>> I would like to see one of these STB-80 cards, any idea where can I find
>> one? Or pictures of it? Or a manual?
>>
>> All I can find is this:
>>
>> https://archive.org/stream/1983-stb-products-catalog/...
>
> There is also a PDF of the small catalogue from STB with a picture.
>
> This 80 column card seems to be just another videx clone with a 2kB SRAM
> (6116) instead of four 2114 SRAMs and with one EPROM as character
> generator instead of two as seen on many other cards.
>
> Probably there is a more luxurious firmware.
>
I'm curious because of this:
"2. STB-80 Driver:
The STB-80 was one of the best 80-column cards on the market. STB Systems no longer makes it though, because they have opted for the IBM marketplace. I have one, and so do many of you, so I wrote a driver for it."
http://www.txbobsc.com/scsc/scassembler/SCMacroAssembler20.h tml#drivers
Every other 80 columns card I've tried is slower than the Videx. Some very much slower, even pitiful. Apple's own 80 columns, as in the IIe and IIc, that's the worst of all !
--
Jorge
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| Re: STB-80 80 Columns card [message #352553 is a reply to message #352546] |
Sat, 16 September 2017 07:10 |
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Originally posted by: R.Kiefer.SPAEM
Jorge wrote:
> I'm curious because of this:
The base of all videx clones are two hardware decisions:
- 6845 CRT controller
- 2kB SRAM as screen buffer, start address $CC00 [1]
Variations exist:
- number of alternate character sets
- local relais to switch from 40 column to 80 and back
The real difference makes the firmware. Try to get the STB-80 firmware,
burn an EPROM and try this firmware with your videx clone. There is a
real chance of success, IMHO.
> Apple's own 80 columns, as in the IIe and IIc, that's the worst of all !
There are advantages and disadvantanges:
+ Just a single connector for the monitor, no flicker when switching
between different video modes
+ The programmer always knows the dependency between address in memory
and screen location
- Scrolling is very slow
- The other functions are also slow especially with the first firmware
of the IIe (that's what I used until getting the enhanced ROMs)
- Waste of main memory
The last point inspired me to use a videx clone in the IIe running my
own UCSD BIOS: I got more usable memory for the pascal programs.
- Ralf
[1] I'm not sure if every videx clone uses this address, but I think
there is no other choice.
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| Re: STB-80 80 Columns card [message #352745 is a reply to message #352553] |
Mon, 18 September 2017 02:36 |
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Originally posted by: Jorge
On Saturday, September 16, 2017 at 1:10:16 PM UTC+2, Ralf Kiefer wrote:
> Jorge wrote:
>
>> I'm curious because of this:
>
> The base of all videx clones are two hardware decisions:
> - 6845 CRT controller
> - 2kB SRAM as screen buffer, start address $CC00 [1]
>
> Variations exist:
> - number of alternate character sets
> - local relais to switch from 40 column to 80 and back
>
> The real difference makes the firmware. Try to get the STB-80 firmware,
> burn an EPROM and try this firmware with your videx clone. There is a
> real chance of success, IMHO.
>
>
>> Apple's own 80 columns, as in the IIe and IIc, that's the worst of all !
>
> There are advantages and disadvantanges:
> + Just a single connector for the monitor, no flicker when switching
> between different video modes
> + The programmer always knows the dependency between address in memory
> and screen location
> - Scrolling is very slow
> - The other functions are also slow especially with the first firmware
> of the IIe (that's what I used until getting the enhanced ROMs)
> - Waste of main memory
>
> The last point inspired me to use a videx clone in the IIe running my
> own UCSD BIOS: I got more usable memory for the pascal programs.
In the IIes, too often, when something goes wrong, you end up with the hardware set to 80 columns display but driven in 40 columns mode, one character in every other column, lol, no wonder, the IIe memory map is such a mess full of traps. In that crazy design you never how what's going to happen next after you hit reset. RE-SET. Perhaps they forgot the meaning of RE-SET? In 1983 a BBC Micro was much better than that. And faster. And its BASIC let you embed assembly. And, and...
Back then I used to work in a II in which I had put 2 videx and 3 green phosphor monitors. If I did not plug in more videx-es it was only because they weren't exactly cheap. That was so cool! Nobody had ever seen before a computer like mine, with three displays running at once!
And my II also had more RAM than a IIe, and more useful than that of a IIe, thanks to Saturn Systems. The RAM disks made orca/m/DOS33 compile in the blink of an eye.
I am curious as to why would Bob Sander-Cederlof prefer an STB-80 over a Videx. Being who he was there must be a good reason.
--
Jorge.
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| Re: STB-80 80 Columns card [message #352758 is a reply to message #352745] |
Mon, 18 September 2017 05:25 |
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Originally posted by: R.Kiefer.SPAEM
Jorge wrote:
> In the IIes, too often, when something goes wrong, you end up with the
> hardware set to 80 columns display but driven in 40 columns mode, one
> character in every other column, lol, no wonder, the IIe memory map is
> such a mess full of traps.
Estimated 99% of time my IIe was running UCSD, and I do not agree in
that behavior.
> In that crazy design you never how what's going to happen next after you
> hit reset.
It's not the design of the hardware, it's the design of DOS and probably
ProDOS, IMHO.
> Back then I used to work in a II in which I had put 2 videx and 3 green
> phosphor monitors.
Especially when writing and debugging my own BIOS I often used two
screens, too :-) The internal IIe screen was used for debugging purpose
means special outputs, and the Videx card was the object of testing the
new driver.
> And my II also had more RAM than a IIe, and more useful than that of a
> IIe, thanks to Saturn Systems. The RAM disks made orca/m/DOS33 compile in
> the blink of an eye.
The AE RamFactor is the fasted RAM disk, IMHO. I also used the RamWorks
[1] in the AUX slot and some RAM cards similiar to the RamFactor but
slower. This one was a german brand (OHO), AFAIK.
Cheers, Ralf
[1] A RamWorks compatible from Taiwan:
http://www.ralf-kiefer.de/A2/RamWorks_II/RWII%28Taiwan%29_BS _small.JPG
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| Re: STB-80 80 Columns card [message #352760 is a reply to message #352758] |
Mon, 18 September 2017 05:32 |
Steve Nickolas
Messages: 2036
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Mon, 18 Sep 2017, Ralf Kiefer wrote:
> Especially when writing and debugging my own BIOS I often used two
> screens, too :-) The internal IIe screen was used for debugging purpose
> means special outputs, and the Videx card was the object of testing the
> new driver.
When working on code for the EZCGI using MAME, I had the standard Apple
display and the output for the TMS9918 side-by-side. It was really
helpful; I could poke around the VDP from FPBASIC.
Still trying to find out enough about the V9938 to use it as an 80-column
card. XD
-uso.
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| Re: STB-80 80 Columns card [message #352762 is a reply to message #352760] |
Mon, 18 September 2017 06:38 |
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Originally posted by: R.Kiefer.SPAEM
Steve Nickolas wrote:
> When working on code for the EZCGI using MAME, I had the standard Apple
> display and the output for the TMS9918 side-by-side. It was really
> helpful; I could poke around the VDP from FPBASIC.
Advantages and disadvantages ... :-)
I don't like graphic controller which use a separate address space for
video memory. This slows down the access i.e. copying a lot of bytes
from CPU space to video space.
The idea behind the videx card was ideal in the world of Apple II. The
cpu has full access to the video memory and the priority over the video
scanner which is switched off to avoid flickering during cpu access.
In 1987 the Mac SE and in the Mac II Toby's frame buffer (Nubus card)
used VRAMs (dual ported RAM including shift registers). A better
solution, but invented years after the Applebus Videx card was
introduced.
- Ralf
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| Re: STB-80 80 Columns card [message #352763 is a reply to message #352761] |
Mon, 18 September 2017 06:39 |
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Originally posted by: Jorge
On Monday, September 18, 2017 at 12:18:45 PM UTC+2, Jorge wrote:
> I don't think AE did even exist in 1982!
And I got my first Videx in 1980... it costed more than $400. Sheesh, that hurt !
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| Re: STB-80 80 Columns card [message #352764 is a reply to message #352761] |
Mon, 18 September 2017 06:48 |
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Originally posted by: R.Kiefer.SPAEM
Jorge wrote:
> I don't think AE did even exist in 1982!
I dont't know when AE started their business. Even the wiki doesn't know
this :-(
In 1982 the 64kb RAMs were expensive. 256kb RAMs weren't available.
Which one was the first RAM card beside the 16kB language card? Saturn
with several banks organized like the language card?
- Ralf
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| Re: STB-80 80 Columns card [message #352765 is a reply to message #352762] |
Mon, 18 September 2017 06:55 |
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Originally posted by: Jorge
On Monday, September 18, 2017 at 12:38:18 PM UTC+2, Ralf Kiefer wrote:
>
> The idea behind the videx card was ideal in the world of Apple II. The
> cpu has full access to the video memory and the priority over the video
> scanner which is switched off to avoid flickering during cpu access.
No flicker??? How come? Mine paints a black stripe of a char width whenever I access cc00, as if it were a TRaSh-80... :-)
Even worse, if you plug in more than one, all of them can flicker at once under certain circumstances, even if disabled. I don't remember the details exactly.
Even so Videx was the best I've ever seen. Unless Sander-Cederlof was right, I don't know, I've never seen an STB-80.
I would like to see the "dirty cheap video" card (ALS). Somebody beat me to it the other day in ebay... grrrr.
--
Jorge.
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| Re: STB-80 80 Columns card [message #352766 is a reply to message #352764] |
Mon, 18 September 2017 07:02 |
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Originally posted by: Jorge
On Monday, September 18, 2017 at 12:48:16 PM UTC+2, Ralf Kiefer wrote:
>
> In 1982 the 64kb RAMs were expensive. 256kb RAMs weren't available.
> Which one was the first RAM card beside the 16kB language card? Saturn
> with several banks organized like the language card?
Yes, the Saturn Systems 64/128kb were among the first as far as I know. And, at least here in Spain, you could buy a bare pcb and build your own as a kit. A clone, chinese or taiwanese pcb, for sure :-) Or perhaps it came from Bielefeld, Deutschland Deutschland über alles, who knows?
--
Jorge.
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| Re: STB-80 80 Columns card [message #352768 is a reply to message #352765] |
Mon, 18 September 2017 07:16 |
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Originally posted by: R.Kiefer.SPAEM
Jorge wrote:
> Even so Videx was the best I've ever seen. Unless Sander-Cederlof was
> right, I don't know, I've never seen an STB-80.
There are no real Videx cards here, just some compatible. They use
different crystals between 16MHz and 18MHz. And there are some cards
with a 74LS245, some with a 74LS373, see the orignal Videx schematics:
U5A or U5B. I don't know the idea behind this. Probably eliminating
flickering?
- Ralf
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| Re: STB-80 80 Columns card [message #352769 is a reply to message #352768] |
Mon, 18 September 2017 08:09 |
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Originally posted by: Jorge
On Monday, September 18, 2017 at 1:16:29 PM UTC+2, Ralf Kiefer wrote:
>
> There are no real Videx cards here, just some compatible. They use
> different crystals between 16MHz and 18MHz. And there are some cards
> with a 74LS245, some with a 74LS373, see the orignal Videx schematics:
> U5A or U5B. I don't know the idea behind this. Probably eliminating
> flickering?
Hi Ralf,
Mine all have 74LS245s... Could you please try this:
PR#3
CALL -151
2000:8D 00 CC 4C 00 20
2000L 2000G
?
And see if there are lots of black tiny traces (one char width) all over the place?
Cheers,
--
Jorge.
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| Re: STB-80 80 Columns card [message #352770 is a reply to message #352769] |
Mon, 18 September 2017 08:11 |
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Originally posted by: Jorge
On Monday, September 18, 2017 at 2:09:03 PM UTC+2, Jorge wrote:
>
> PR#3
> CALL -151
> 2000:8D 00 CC 4C 00 20
> 2000L 2000G
>
If I do that with the zipchip on the image is almost unreadable :-)
--
Jorge.
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| Re: STB-80 80 Columns card [message #352804 is a reply to message #352766] |
Mon, 18 September 2017 11:49 |
Michael J. Mahon
Messages: 1767
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Jorge <jorge@jorgechamorro.com> wrote:
> On Monday, September 18, 2017 at 12:48:16 PM UTC+2, Ralf Kiefer wrote:
>>
>> In 1982 the 64kb RAMs were expensive. 256kb RAMs weren't available.
>> Which one was the first RAM card beside the 16kB language card? Saturn
>> with several banks organized like the language card?
>
> Yes, the Saturn Systems 64/128kb were among the first as far as I know.
> And, at least here in Spain, you could buy a bare pcb and build your own
> as a kit. A clone, chinese or taiwanese pcb, for sure :-) Or perhaps it
> came from Bielefeld, Deutschland Deutschland über alles, who knows?
>
That's exactly what I did (and many others).
The Hong Kong/Taiwanese PCBs were plentiful for popular cards. I built my
own Videx clone, Language Card clone, Saturn 128K clone, and Z80 SoftCard
clone--each for less than $100.
That freed up funds for uncloned cards, like the SpeedDemon, the
Mockingboard, and a Graphitti. ;-)
--
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com
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| Re: STB-80 80 Columns card [message #352805 is a reply to message #352804] |
Mon, 18 September 2017 12:18 |
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Originally posted by: Jorge
On Monday, September 18, 2017 at 5:50:04 PM UTC+2, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
> Jorge wrote:
>>
>> Yes, the Saturn Systems 64/128kb were among the first as far as I know.
>> And, at least here in Spain, you could buy a bare pcb and build your own
>> as a kit. A clone, chinese or taiwanese pcb, for sure :-) Or perhaps it
>> came from Bielefeld, Deutschland Deutschland über alles, who knows?
>>
>
> That's exactly what I did (and many others).
>
> The Hong Kong/Taiwanese PCBs were plentiful for popular cards. I built my
> own Videx clone, Language Card clone, Saturn 128K clone, and Z80 SoftCard
> clone--each for less than $100.
>
> That freed up funds for uncloned cards, like the SpeedDemon, the
> Mockingboard, and a Graphitti. ;-)
I still have one :-)
https://i.imgur.com/xo07j7u.jpg
What the hell was a "Graphitti" ?
--
Jorge.
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| Re: STB-80 80 Columns card [message #352806 is a reply to message #352805] |
Mon, 18 September 2017 12:50 |
Michael J. Mahon
Messages: 1767
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Jorge <jorge@jorgechamorro.com> wrote:
> On Monday, September 18, 2017 at 5:50:04 PM UTC+2, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
>> Jorge wrote:
>>>
>>> Yes, the Saturn Systems 64/128kb were among the first as far as I know.
>>> And, at least here in Spain, you could buy a bare pcb and build your own
>>> as a kit. A clone, chinese or taiwanese pcb, for sure :-) Or perhaps it
>>> came from Bielefeld, Deutschland Deutschland über alles, who knows?
>>>
>>
>> That's exactly what I did (and many others).
>>
>> The Hong Kong/Taiwanese PCBs were plentiful for popular cards. I built my
>> own Videx clone, Language Card clone, Saturn 128K clone, and Z80 SoftCard
>> clone--each for less than $100.
>>
>> That freed up funds for uncloned cards, like the SpeedDemon, the
>> Mockingboard, and a Graphitti. ;-)
>
> I still have one :-)
>
> https://i.imgur.com/xo07j7u.jpg
>
> What the hell was a "Graphitti" ?
>
It was a short parallel printer card that had hi-res screen dump routines
in ROM.
--
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com
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| Re: STB-80 80 Columns card [message #352808 is a reply to message #352806] |
Mon, 18 September 2017 13:42 |
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Originally posted by: Jorge
On Monday, September 18, 2017 at 6:50:52 PM UTC+2, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
> Jorge wrote:
>>
>> What the hell was a "Graphitti" ?
>
> It was a short parallel printer card that had hi-res screen dump routines
> in ROM.
Lucky you! I had to deal with this https://imgur.com/a/oWJNG and write the dump code myself :-(
--
Jorge.
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| Re: STB-80 80 Columns card [message #352811 is a reply to message #352769] |
Mon, 18 September 2017 14:54 |
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Originally posted by: R.Kiefer.SPAEM
Jorge wrote:
> Mine all have 74LS245s... Could you please try this:
Actually not, sorry. There is no running Apple II available (but some
other old computers, that's another story :-) ). Later this year ...
There is already a list of several things which I want to test and
document. One thing is the test of the different 80 column cards.
> And see if there are lots of black tiny traces (one char width) all over
> the place?
I used my 80 column card with my accelerator board, which means a very
fast output i.e. with the whole UCSD stuff or with my terminal program
running at 57600Baud without handshake and without losing any character
or terminal command. No flickering. The reason is probably that my
monitor is the Apple ///.
Your test loop is not very representative for real operation, IMHO. This
loop inhibits the video scanner from access to video RAM very often,
every 7 usec or at 143kHz. The frequency of the video scanner reading
the video RAM is nearly the same (80 * 24 * 60Hz * 1,3).
- Ralf
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| Re: STB-80 80 Columns card [message #352860 is a reply to message #352811] |
Tue, 19 September 2017 11:39 |
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Originally posted by: Jorge
On Monday, September 18, 2017 at 8:54:59 PM UTC+2, Ralf Kiefer wrote:
>
> The reason is probably that my monitor is the Apple ///.
>
Yes ! That has a long persistence CRT.
> Your test loop is not very representative for real operation, IMHO. This
> loop inhibits the video scanner from access to video RAM very often,
> every 7 usec or at 143kHz. The frequency of the video scanner reading
> the video RAM is nearly the same (80 * 24 * 60Hz * 1,3).
And another Yes! The idea was to show the interferences... as many as possible.
Cheers,
--
Jorge.
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