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Re: learning Unix, was progress in e-mail, such as AOL [message #353301 is a reply to message #353202] Sun, 24 September 2017 12:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
pechter is currently offline  pechter
Messages: 452
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
In article <PM000559DC8069137E@aca414dc.ipt.aol.com>,
jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
> William Pechter wrote:
>> In article <PM000559C6FAD0542B@aca40a43.ipt.aol.com>,
>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>> Peter Flass wrote:
>>>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>>> > Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>> >> simon@twoplaces.co.uk (Simon Turner) writes:
>>>> >>> On 20 Sep, in article
>>>> >>> <PM0005599E61AF92CD@aca40e80.ipt.aol.com>
>>> See.above@aol.com
>>>> >>> "jmfbahciv" wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> John Levine wrote:
>>>> >>>>> In article <PM000559628D9137D2@aca40e5d.ipt.aol.com>,
>>>> >>>>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>> And how are people supposed to learn? I've
>>> found no "getting started"
>>>> >>>>>> books.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Must not have looked very hard. Unix for
>>> Dummies has been in print
>>>> >>>>> for a long time. Best book I ever wrote.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> That one was written for general users, not
>>> system administrators. One
>>>> >>>> has to know system administration before using
>>> when one owns the system.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> But given that your "how are people supposed to
>>> learn" was in response
>>>> >>> to an observation about people not bothering to
>>> learn how to use tools
>>>> >>> (application software) properly, a book written
>>> for general users is
>>>> >>> *exactly* what is needed... we weren't talking
>>> about owning systems, let
>>>> >>> alone about system administration.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> You keep effectively insisting that, before one
>>> can learn to drive a
>>>> >>> car, one must have a full understanding of
>>> advanced mechanical
>>>> >>> engineering, be able to build an internal
>>> combustion engine from first
>>>> >>> principles, have read papers on the exact
>>> mechanisms by which tyres
>>>> >>> adhere to the road, be able to troubleshoot
>>> problems in oil refineries,
>>>> >>> etc.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> It's a bizarre attitude to adopt in a world full
>>> of counterexamples
>>>> >>> (computer owners who do not know system
>>> administration but nonetheless
>>>> >>> seem to manage to use their computers anyway).
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Indeed. It's not, after all, a million dollar
>>> mainframe. Learn by
>>>> >> experimentation and doing.
>>>> >
>>>> > The first step suggested before playing is to do a
>>> backup of the system.
>>>> > That is an operations task, not a beginning user
>>> task. Making a mistake
>>>> > which requires a rebuild of the system is a sysadmin
>>> task. All of these
>>>> > tasks require a user knowledge beyond the scope of a
>>> beginner.
>>>>
>>>> All you need to back up are your user files. If you
>>> trash your system just
>>>> reinstall from scratch and then copy back your personal data.
>>>
>>> Which device is scratch?
>>>
>>> /BAH
>>>
>>>>
>>
>> It usually the DVD or USB key.
>> I send both when I build systems...
>
> I understand. The question was a tad tongue-in-cheekiness to
> point out the lack of user documentation when that user is also
> an owner of a system. In aulden days, there were groups
> of people who handled each aspect of computer system owndership.
> With the advent of the PC, the poor luser has to do the work
> of all those groups, including the preliminary work of
> procurement (which used to take hundreds of people months to
> do the work if you consider both the buyer and seller of the
> hard/software).
>
> /BAH

If you purchase a new machine with Linux on it from Dell or System76, I'm
sure they'll support the users through any restore needed and enclose
customized recovery disks/partitions.

Bill
Re: learning Unix, was progress in e-mail, such as AOL [message #353307 is a reply to message #353278] Sun, 24 September 2017 12:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 24 Sep 2017 14:45:43 GMT
jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:

> Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>> On 2017-09-24, Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Nobody tells you to keep breathing during the install.
>>> Some things are left to common sense.
>>
>> Damn, so _that's_ why I get so light-headed after pressing <enter>
>> and waiting to see whether it worked.
>>
> no,no,no... You have to turn the crank located at the upper right-hand
> corner of the screen.

My daughter used to give me funny looks for doing that, now she
does it too.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: learning Unix, was progress in e-mail, such as AOL [message #353308 is a reply to message #353279] Sun, 24 September 2017 12:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 24 Sep 2017 14:45:51 GMT
jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:

> How will someone know to choose FreeBSD? The Unix wars are
> worse than editor wars.

That's a tricky one, especially since the FreeBSD guys don't go out
of their way to evangalise. I bumped into it a long time ago because I was
looking for a better free unix than Linux 0.9.<mumble>.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: learning Unix, was progress in e-mail, such as AOL [message #353310 is a reply to message #353296] Sun, 24 September 2017 13:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Bob Eager

On Sun, 24 Sep 2017 11:02:19 -0500, JimP. wrote:

> On 24 Sep 2017 14:45:51 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> Bob Eager wrote:
>>> On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 14:35:09 +0000, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>>
>>>> > the first thing you should do is burn a DVD before installing.
>>>>
>>>> I agree. However, no Unix books I've read have this as a first step.
>>>> Even Msoft had this as a first step in their "getting started"
>>>> instructions when someone bought a system.
>>>
>>> The FreeBSD instructions (not in a physical book, but in the Handbook,
>>> which is online) contains an Installation section, which summarises
>>> what it is about to cover. It says:
>>>
>>> - After reading this chapter, you will know:
>>>
>>> * The minimum hardware requirements and FreeBSD supported
>>> architectures.
>>> * How to create the FreeBSD installation media.
>>> * How to start bsdinstall.
>>> * The questions bsdinstall will ask, what they mean, and how to
>>> answer
>>> them.
>>> * How to troubleshoot a failed installation.
>>> * How to access a live version of FreeBSD before committing to an
>>> installation.
>>>
>>>
>> I will ignore the "on-line" requirement for the moment.
>>
>> How will someone know to choose FreeBSD? The Unix wars are worse than
>> editor wars.
>>
>> /BAH
>
> Uhm, FreeBSD isn't exactly Unix.
>
> Ah... from wikipedia.
>
> FreeBSD is a free and open-source Unix-like operating system descended
> from Research Unix via the Berkeley Software Distribution (BSD).

I didn't say FreeBSD was UNIX, at any point. I was using the generic (and
I know it's incorrect) term.

Linux isn't UNIX either.

--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Re: learning Unix, was progress in e-mail, such as AOL [message #353312 is a reply to message #353298] Sun, 24 September 2017 13:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: JimP.

On Sun, 24 Sep 2017 16:08:54 -0000 (UTC),
pechter@lakewoodmicro-fbsd-tor1-01.lakewoodmicro.com (William Pechter)
wrote:

> In article <PM000559DC718AAF69@aca414dc.ipt.aol.com>,
> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>> Peter Flass wrote:
>>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>>> Peter Flass wrote:
>>>> > jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>>> >> Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>> >>> simon@twoplaces.co.uk (Simon Turner) writes:
>>>> >>>> On 20 Sep, in article
>>>> >>>> <PM0005599E61AF92CD@aca40e80.ipt.aol.com> See.above@aol.com
>>>> >>>> "jmfbahciv" wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>> John Levine wrote:
>>>> >>>>>> In article <PM000559628D9137D2@aca40e5d.ipt.aol.com>,
>>>> >>>>>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>> And how are people supposed to learn? I've found no "getting
>> started"
>>>> >>>>>>> books.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> Must not have looked very hard. Unix for Dummies has been in print
>>>> >>>>>> for a long time. Best book I ever wrote.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> That one was written for general users, not system administrators.
>> One
>>>> >>>>> has to know system administration before using when one owns the
>> system.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> But given that your "how are people supposed to learn" was in response
>>>> >>>> to an observation about people not bothering to learn how to use tools
>>>> >>>> (application software) properly, a book written for general users is
>>>> >>>> *exactly* what is needed... we weren't talking about owning systems,
>> let
>>>> >>>> alone about system administration.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> You keep effectively insisting that, before one can learn to drive a
>>>> >>>> car, one must have a full understanding of advanced mechanical
>>>> >>>> engineering, be able to build an internal combustion engine from first
>>>> >>>> principles, have read papers on the exact mechanisms by which tyres
>>>> >>>> adhere to the road, be able to troubleshoot problems in oil refineries,
>>>> >>>> etc.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> It's a bizarre attitude to adopt in a world full of counterexamples
>>>> >>>> (computer owners who do not know system administration but nonetheless
>>>> >>>> seem to manage to use their computers anyway).
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Indeed. It's not, after all, a million dollar mainframe. Learn by
>>>> >>> experimentation and doing.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> The first step suggested before playing is to do a backup of the system.
>>>> >> That is an operations task, not a beginning user task. Making a mistake
>>>> >> which requires a rebuild of the system is a sysadmin task. All of these
>>>> >> tasks require a user knowledge beyond the scope of a beginner.
>>>> >
>>>> > All you need to back up are your user files. If you trash your system just
>>>> > reinstall from scratch and then copy back your personal data.
>>>>
>>>> Which device is scratch?
>>>
>>> Scratch is the install DVD or CD. Just tell it to erase the disk and do a
>>> clean install. If you downloaded your copy from the net, like most people,
>>
>> Which is a chicken/egg thing if you have dial-up.
>
> True... but if you are going to put Linux on the box you need
> to get it from either:
>
> 1. A CD/DVD vendor or another person with a high speed net connection
> (in the old days I'd download 24 hrs over dial-up if needed)
>
> So if you have linux on the box it either: Came with it preinstalled
> (System 76, Dell) or it was installed on your box by someone with the
> CD/DVD/USBkey.
>
> Linux DVD's sell for as little as $5.00 from internet vendors or Ebay.

Get a Linux magazine from the nearest bookstore that has a live linux
cd on it. You can boot up one or more linux versions, and see what it
is like before your install. Note that some linux magazines have linux
on a DVD, but they aren't bootable.
--
Jim
Re: learning Unix, was progress in e-mail, such as AOL [message #353314 is a reply to message #353296] Sun, 24 September 2017 13:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Sun, 24 Sep 2017 11:02:19 -0500
JimP. <solosam90@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 24 Sep 2017 14:45:51 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> Bob Eager wrote:
>>> On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 14:35:09 +0000, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>>
>>>> > the first thing you should do is burn a DVD before installing.
>>>>
>>>> I agree. However, no Unix books I've read have this as a first step.
>>>> Even Msoft had this as a first step in their "getting started"
>>>> instructions when someone bought a system.
>>>
>>> The FreeBSD instructions (not in a physical book, but in the Handbook,
>>> which is online) contains an Installation section, which summarises
>>> what it is about to cover. It says:
>>>
>>> - After reading this chapter, you will know:
>>>
>>> * The minimum hardware requirements and FreeBSD supported
>>> architectures.
>>> * How to create the FreeBSD installation media.
>>> * How to start bsdinstall.
>>> * The questions bsdinstall will ask, what they mean, and how to
>>> answer them.
>>> * How to troubleshoot a failed installation.
>>> * How to access a live version of FreeBSD before committing to an
>>> installation.
>>>
>>>
>> I will ignore the "on-line" requirement for the moment.
>>
>> How will someone know to choose FreeBSD? The Unix wars are
>> worse than editor wars.
>>
>> /BAH
>
> Uhm, FreeBSD isn't exactly Unix.

Not much is these days, getting the [tm] stamp costs serious money.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: learning Unix, was progress in e-mail, such as AOL [message #353318 is a reply to message #353298] Sun, 24 September 2017 13:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
William Pechter <pechter@lakewoodmicro-fbsd-tor1-01.lakewoodmicro.com>
wrote:
> In article <PM000559DC718AAF69@aca414dc.ipt.aol.com>,
> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>> Peter Flass wrote:
>>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>>> Peter Flass wrote:
>>>> > jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>>> >> Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>> >>> simon@twoplaces.co.uk (Simon Turner) writes:
>>>> >>>> On 20 Sep, in article
>>>> >>>> <PM0005599E61AF92CD@aca40e80.ipt.aol.com> See.above@aol.com
>>>> >>>> "jmfbahciv" wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>> John Levine wrote:
>>>> >>>>>> In article <PM000559628D9137D2@aca40e5d.ipt.aol.com>,
>>>> >>>>>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>> And how are people supposed to learn? I've found no "getting
>> started"
>>>> >>>>>>> books.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> Must not have looked very hard. Unix for Dummies has been in print
>>>> >>>>>> for a long time. Best book I ever wrote.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> That one was written for general users, not system administrators.
>> One
>>>> >>>>> has to know system administration before using when one owns the
>> system.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> But given that your "how are people supposed to learn" was in response
>>>> >>>> to an observation about people not bothering to learn how to use tools
>>>> >>>> (application software) properly, a book written for general users is
>>>> >>>> *exactly* what is needed... we weren't talking about owning systems,
>> let
>>>> >>>> alone about system administration.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> You keep effectively insisting that, before one can learn to drive a
>>>> >>>> car, one must have a full understanding of advanced mechanical
>>>> >>>> engineering, be able to build an internal combustion engine from first
>>>> >>>> principles, have read papers on the exact mechanisms by which tyres
>>>> >>>> adhere to the road, be able to troubleshoot problems in oil refineries,
>>>> >>>> etc.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> It's a bizarre attitude to adopt in a world full of counterexamples
>>>> >>>> (computer owners who do not know system administration but nonetheless
>>>> >>>> seem to manage to use their computers anyway).
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Indeed. It's not, after all, a million dollar mainframe. Learn by
>>>> >>> experimentation and doing.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> The first step suggested before playing is to do a backup of the system.
>>>> >> That is an operations task, not a beginning user task. Making a mistake
>>>> >> which requires a rebuild of the system is a sysadmin task. All of these
>>>> >> tasks require a user knowledge beyond the scope of a beginner.
>>>> >
>>>> > All you need to back up are your user files. If you trash your system just
>>>> > reinstall from scratch and then copy back your personal data.
>>>>
>>>> Which device is scratch?
>>>
>>> Scratch is the install DVD or CD. Just tell it to erase the disk and do a
>>> clean install. If you downloaded your copy from the net, like most people,
>>
>> Which is a chicken/egg thing if you have dial-up.
>
> True... but if you are going to put Linux on the box you need
> to get it from either:
>
> 1. A CD/DVD vendor or another person with a high speed net connection
> (in the old days I'd download 24 hrs over dial-up if needed)
>
> So if you have linux on the box it either: Came with it preinstalled
> (System 76, Dell) or it was installed on your box by someone with the
> CD/DVD/USBkey.

Oh, for pity's sake, a lot of magazines come with a CD of some new distro
right off the shelf. How much simpler could it get?

>
> Linux DVD's sell for as little as $5.00 from internet vendors or Ebay.
>
>
>>
>>> the first thing you should do is burn a DVD before installing.
>>
>> I agree. However, no Unix books I've read have this as a first step.
>> Even Msoft had this as a first step in their "getting started"
>> instructions when someone bought a system.
>>
>> /BAH
>
>
> Don't forget. Unix used to only come from a hardware vendor with their
> hardware. Linux books often go through this step.
>
> Bill
>
>



--
Pete
Re: learning Unix, was progress in e-mail, such as AOL [message #353322 is a reply to message #353318] Sun, 24 September 2017 14:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
pechter is currently offline  pechter
Messages: 452
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
In article <1637449123.527967257.368408.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>,
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> William Pechter <pechter@lakewoodmicro-fbsd-tor1-01.lakewoodmicro.com>
> wrote:
>> In article <PM000559DC718AAF69@aca414dc.ipt.aol.com>,
>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>> Peter Flass wrote:
>>>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>>> > Peter Flass wrote:
>>>> >> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>>> >>> Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>> >>>> simon@twoplaces.co.uk (Simon Turner) writes:
>>>> >>>>> On 20 Sep, in article
>>>> >>>>> <PM0005599E61AF92CD@aca40e80.ipt.aol.com> See.above@aol.com
>>>> >>>>> "jmfbahciv" wrote:
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> John Levine wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>> In article <PM000559628D9137D2@aca40e5d.ipt.aol.com>,
>>>> >>>>>>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>>> And how are people supposed to learn? I've found no "getting
>>> started"
>>>> >>>>>>>> books.
>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>> Must not have looked very hard. Unix for Dummies has been in print
>>>> >>>>>>> for a long time. Best book I ever wrote.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> That one was written for general users, not system administrators.
>>> One
>>>> >>>>>> has to know system administration before using when one owns the
>>> system.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> But given that your "how are people supposed to learn" was in response
>>>> >>>>> to an observation about people not bothering to learn how to use tools
>>>> >>>>> (application software) properly, a book written for general users is
>>>> >>>>> *exactly* what is needed... we weren't talking about owning systems,
>>> let
>>>> >>>>> alone about system administration.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> You keep effectively insisting that, before one can learn to drive a
>>>> >>>>> car, one must have a full understanding of advanced mechanical
>>>> >>>>> engineering, be able to build an internal combustion engine from first
>>>> >>>>> principles, have read papers on the exact mechanisms by which tyres
>>>> >>>>> adhere to the road, be able to troubleshoot problems in oil refineries,
>>>> >>>>> etc.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> It's a bizarre attitude to adopt in a world full of counterexamples
>>>> >>>>> (computer owners who do not know system administration but nonetheless
>>>> >>>>> seem to manage to use their computers anyway).
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Indeed. It's not, after all, a million dollar mainframe. Learn by
>>>> >>>> experimentation and doing.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> The first step suggested before playing is to do a backup of the system.
>>>> >>> That is an operations task, not a beginning user task. Making a mistake
>>>> >>> which requires a rebuild of the system is a sysadmin task. All of these
>>>> >>> tasks require a user knowledge beyond the scope of a beginner.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> All you need to back up are your user files. If you trash your system just
>>>> >> reinstall from scratch and then copy back your personal data.
>>>> >
>>>> > Which device is scratch?
>>>>
>>>> Scratch is the install DVD or CD. Just tell it to erase the disk and do a
>>>> clean install. If you downloaded your copy from the net, like most people,
>>>
>>> Which is a chicken/egg thing if you have dial-up.
>>
>> True... but if you are going to put Linux on the box you need
>> to get it from either:
>>
>> 1. A CD/DVD vendor or another person with a high speed net connection
>> (in the old days I'd download 24 hrs over dial-up if needed)
>>
>> So if you have linux on the box it either: Came with it preinstalled
>> (System 76, Dell) or it was installed on your box by someone with the
>> CD/DVD/USBkey.
>
> Oh, for pity's sake, a lot of magazines come with a CD of some new distro
> right off the shelf. How much simpler could it get?

At $16.00 per magazine with distro cd... Ebay's cheaper...

I miss cheapbytes.com... 8-)

> --
> Pete
Re: learning Unix, was progress in e-mail, such as AOL [message #353334 is a reply to message #353299] Sun, 24 September 2017 16:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Sun, 24 Sep 2017 16:10:45 -0000 (UTC),
pechter@lakewoodmicro-fbsd-tor1-01.lakewoodmicro.com (William Pechter)
wrote:

> In article <PM000559F0A5230464@aca411bd.ipt.aol.com>,
> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>> Bob Eager wrote:
>>> On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 14:35:09 +0000, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>>
>>>> > the first thing you should do is burn a DVD before installing.
>>>>
>>>> I agree. However, no Unix books I've read have this as a first step.
>>>> Even Msoft had this as a first step in their "getting started"
>>>> instructions when someone bought a system.
>>>
>>> The FreeBSD instructions (not in a physical book, but in the Handbook,
>>> which is online) contains an Installation section, which summarises what
>>> it is about to cover. It says:
>>>
>>> - After reading this chapter, you will know:
>>>
>>> * The minimum hardware requirements and FreeBSD supported architectures.
>>> * How to create the FreeBSD installation media.
>>> * How to start bsdinstall.
>>> * The questions bsdinstall will ask, what they mean, and how to answer
>>> them.
>>> * How to troubleshoot a failed installation.
>>> * How to access a live version of FreeBSD before committing to an
>>> installation.
>>>
>>>
>> I will ignore the "on-line" requirement for the moment.
>>
>> How will someone know to choose FreeBSD? The Unix wars are
>> worse than editor wars.
>>
>> /BAH
>
> The Unix wars are over. AT&T and Sun Lost. Microsoft and it's worst foe,
> Linux won.
>
> Solaris is having it's grave dug by Oracle right now.

And IBM went through the process and paid the fees and can call Z/OS
"Unix" if they want to but it seems to be more common to run Linux in
a VM on it than it is to link and load the native Unix features.
>
> Bill
Re: learning Unix, was progress in e-mail, such as AOL [message #353335 is a reply to message #353307] Sun, 24 September 2017 16:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Sun, 24 Sep 2017 17:50:25 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
<steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> On 24 Sep 2017 14:45:43 GMT
> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>> On 2017-09-24, Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Nobody tells you to keep breathing during the install.
>>>> Some things are left to common sense.
>>>
>>> Damn, so _that's_ why I get so light-headed after pressing <enter>
>>> and waiting to see whether it worked.
>>>
>> no,no,no... You have to turn the crank located at the upper right-hand
>> corner of the screen.
>
> My daughter used to give me funny looks for doing that, now she
> does it too.

Flashing on a story told to me about Einstein by one of his former
students. Seems that he was running out of blackboard and there was a
crank to raise the board so he could write on the next one below it.
Someone pointed this out to him. So Einstein starts cranking away.
The crank was three feet in the other direction from where he was
cranking.
Re: learning Unix, was progress in e-mail, such as AOL [message #353343 is a reply to message #353307] Sun, 24 September 2017 17:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2017-09-24, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> On 24 Sep 2017 14:45:43 GMT
> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>>> On 2017-09-24, Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Nobody tells you to keep breathing during the install.
>>>> Some things are left to common sense.
>>>
>>> Damn, so _that's_ why I get so light-headed after pressing <enter>
>>> and waiting to see whether it worked.
>>
>> no,no,no... You have to turn the crank located at the upper right-hand
>> corner of the screen.
>
> My daughter used to give me funny looks for doing that, now she
> does it too.

When making a credit or debit card purchase, if the machine is slow
to respond I'll sometimes mime a crank on the side of it. Clerks get
a charge (ha-ha) out of it.

--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
Re: learning Unix, was progress in e-mail, such as AOL [message #353357 is a reply to message #353280] Mon, 25 September 2017 02:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bob Martin is currently offline  Bob Martin
Messages: 157
Registered: August 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
in 688057 20170924 154543 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
> Bob Martin wrote:
>> in 687998 20170923 153509 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:

>>> I agree. However, no Unix books I've read have this as a first step.
>>> Even Msoft had this as a first step in their "getting started"
>>> instructions when someone bought a system.
>>
>> Nobody tells you to keep breathing during the install.
>> Some things are left to common sense.
>
> Where "common sense" has to be based on unix expertise which doesn't
> exist in these cases.

On the one hand you claim to be an experienced developer then in the next breath
you imply that you know absolutely nothing about computers.
Which is it?
Re: learning Unix, was progress in e-mail, such as AOL [message #353364 is a reply to message #353343] Mon, 25 September 2017 08:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jmfbahciv is currently offline  jmfbahciv
Messages: 6173
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2017-09-24, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>
>> On 24 Sep 2017 14:45:43 GMT
>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2017-09-24, Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Nobody tells you to keep breathing during the install.
>>>> > Some things are left to common sense.
>>>>
>>>> Damn, so _that's_ why I get so light-headed after pressing <enter>
>>>> and waiting to see whether it worked.
>>>
>>> no,no,no... You have to turn the crank located at the upper right-hand
>>> corner of the screen.
>>
>> My daughter used to give me funny looks for doing that, now she
>> does it too.
>
> When making a credit or debit card purchase, if the machine is slow
> to respond I'll sometimes mime a crank on the side of it. Clerks get
> a charge (ha-ha) out of it.
>
I do the same thing but I get a wierd look from the clerk.

/BAH
Re: learning Unix, was progress in e-mail, such as AOL [message #353365 is a reply to message #353307] Mon, 25 September 2017 08:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jmfbahciv is currently offline  jmfbahciv
Messages: 6173
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On 24 Sep 2017 14:45:43 GMT
> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>> On 2017-09-24, Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Nobody tells you to keep breathing during the install.
>>>> Some things are left to common sense.
>>>
>>> Damn, so _that's_ why I get so light-headed after pressing <enter>
>>> and waiting to see whether it worked.
>>>
>> no,no,no... You have to turn the crank located at the upper right-hand
>> corner of the screen.
>
> My daughter used to give me funny looks for doing that, now she
> does it too.
>
<GRIN> JMF started doing it when he worked on VMS. We never did it
for the -10 or -20.

/BAH
Re: learning Unix, was progress in e-mail, such as AOL [message #353367 is a reply to message #353357] Mon, 25 September 2017 08:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jmfbahciv is currently offline  jmfbahciv
Messages: 6173
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Bob Martin wrote:
> in 688057 20170924 154543 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>> Bob Martin wrote:
>>> in 687998 20170923 153509 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>>> I agree. However, no Unix books I've read have this as a first step.
>>>> Even Msoft had this as a first step in their "getting started"
>>>> instructions when someone bought a system.
>>>
>>> Nobody tells you to keep breathing during the install.
>>> Some things are left to common sense.
>>
>> Where "common sense" has to be based on unix expertise which doesn't
>> exist in these cases.
>
> On the one hand you claim to be an experienced developer then in the next
breath
> you imply that you know absolutely nothing about computers.
> Which is it?

The original topic was about the sullied masses who were still using
Msoft. I've stated several times I was talking about them when
posters here were denigrating them for not using Unix.

I haven't been talking about me though my non-friends rapidly
switched to reading my posts as personal.

/BAH
Re: learning Unix, was progress in e-mail, such as AOL [message #353376 is a reply to message #353364] Mon, 25 September 2017 10:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2017-09-25, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:

> Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> On 2017-09-24, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 24 Sep 2017 14:45:43 GMT
>>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > On 2017-09-24, Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> Nobody tells you to keep breathing during the install.
>>>> >> Some things are left to common sense.
>>>> >
>>>> > Damn, so _that's_ why I get so light-headed after pressing <enter>
>>>> > and waiting to see whether it worked.
>>>>
>>>> no,no,no... You have to turn the crank located at the upper right-hand
>>>> corner of the screen.
>>>
>>> My daughter used to give me funny looks for doing that, now she
>>> does it too.
>>
>> When making a credit or debit card purchase, if the machine is slow
>> to respond I'll sometimes mime a crank on the side of it. Clerks get
>> a charge (ha-ha) out of it.
>
> I do the same thing but I get a wierd look from the clerk.

Your clerks must be pretty strait-laced. I only get weird looks when I
tickle the machine under the chin and start making "cootchy-coo" noises.

--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
Re: learning Unix, was progress in e-mail, such as AOL [message #353379 is a reply to message #353357] Mon, 25 September 2017 11:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
usenet is currently offline  usenet
Messages: 556
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Mon, 25 Sep 2017 07:37:28 BST, Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> wrote:
> in 688057 20170924 154543 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>> Bob Martin wrote:
>>> in 687998 20170923 153509 jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>>> I agree. However, no Unix books I've read have this as a first step.
>>>> Even Msoft had this as a first step in their "getting started"
>>>> instructions when someone bought a system.
>>>
>>> Nobody tells you to keep breathing during the install.
>>> Some things are left to common sense.
>>
>> Where "common sense" has to be based on unix expertise which doesn't
>> exist in these cases.
>
> On the one hand you claim to be an experienced developer then in the next breath
> you imply that you know absolutely nothing about computers.
> Which is it?

[waving hand wildly]

Ooh! Ooh! I know the answer! Call on me!
Re: learning Unix, was progress in e-mail, such as AOL [message #353388 is a reply to message #353334] Mon, 25 September 2017 11:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Sep 2017 16:10:45 -0000 (UTC),
> pechter@lakewoodmicro-fbsd-tor1-01.lakewoodmicro.com (William Pechter)
> wrote:
>
>> In article <PM000559F0A5230464@aca411bd.ipt.aol.com>,
>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>> Bob Eager wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 14:35:09 +0000, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >> the first thing you should do is burn a DVD before installing.
>>>> >
>>>> > I agree. However, no Unix books I've read have this as a first step.
>>>> > Even Msoft had this as a first step in their "getting started"
>>>> > instructions when someone bought a system.
>>>>
>>>> The FreeBSD instructions (not in a physical book, but in the Handbook,
>>>> which is online) contains an Installation section, which summarises what
>>>> it is about to cover. It says:
>>>>
>>>> - After reading this chapter, you will know:
>>>>
>>>> * The minimum hardware requirements and FreeBSD supported architectures.
>>>> * How to create the FreeBSD installation media.
>>>> * How to start bsdinstall.
>>>> * The questions bsdinstall will ask, what they mean, and how to answer
>>>> them.
>>>> * How to troubleshoot a failed installation.
>>>> * How to access a live version of FreeBSD before committing to an
>>>> installation.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I will ignore the "on-line" requirement for the moment.
>>>
>>> How will someone know to choose FreeBSD? The Unix wars are
>>> worse than editor wars.
>>>
>>> /BAH
>>
>> The Unix wars are over. AT&T and Sun Lost. Microsoft and it's worst foe,
>> Linux won.
>>
>> Solaris is having it's grave dug by Oracle right now.
>
> And IBM went through the process and paid the fees and can call Z/OS
> "Unix" if they want to but it seems to be more common to run Linux in
> a VM on it than it is to link and load the native Unix features.
>>
>> Bill
>

Much better, too, If I understand you right. Linux under VM give you a lot
of RAS features that native unix doesn't have. OTOH, if you're talking
about the unix features of zOS, my personal impression of them is that
they're junk.\\\\\ less than optimal. Most people that would use them are
people already running zOS, but I don't think they're well-integrated, you
might as well be running two separate machines.

--
Pete
Re: learning Unix, was progress in e-mail, such as AOL [message #353423 is a reply to message #353343] Mon, 25 September 2017 22:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gene Wirchenko is currently offline  Gene Wirchenko
Messages: 1166
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 24 Sep 2017 21:59:47 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
wrote:

[snip]

> When making a credit or debit card purchase, if the machine is slow
> to respond I'll sometimes mime a crank on the side of it. Clerks get
> a charge (ha-ha) out of it.

When things are slow on something that should be quick, I
sometimes say, "Later that same day ...".

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
Re: learning Unix, was progress in e-mail, such as AOL [message #353434 is a reply to message #353296] Tue, 26 September 2017 00:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charles Richmond is currently offline  Charles Richmond
Messages: 2754
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 9/24/2017 11:02 AM, JimP. wrote:
> On 24 Sep 2017 14:45:51 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> Bob Eager wrote:
>>> On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 14:35:09 +0000, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>>
>>>> > the first thing you should do is burn a DVD before installing.
>>>>
>>>> I agree. However, no Unix books I've read have this as a first step.
>>>> Even Msoft had this as a first step in their "getting started"
>>>> instructions when someone bought a system.
>>>
>>> The FreeBSD instructions (not in a physical book, but in the Handbook,
>>> which is online) contains an Installation section, which summarises what
>>> it is about to cover. It says:
>>>
>>> - After reading this chapter, you will know:
>>>
>>> * The minimum hardware requirements and FreeBSD supported architectures.
>>> * How to create the FreeBSD installation media.
>>> * How to start bsdinstall.
>>> * The questions bsdinstall will ask, what they mean, and how to answer
>>> them.
>>> * How to troubleshoot a failed installation.
>>> * How to access a live version of FreeBSD before committing to an
>>> installation.
>>>
>>>
>> I will ignore the "on-line" requirement for the moment.
>>
>> How will someone know to choose FreeBSD? The Unix wars are
>> worse than editor wars.
>>
>> /BAH
>
> Uhm, FreeBSD isn't exactly Unix.
>

FreeBSD is *not* Unix??? I guess *no* more than Linux is Unix. Sun
Microsystems and Bill Joy sure thought that regular BSD was Unix! Of
course, then it became Solaris...


--
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
Re: learning Unix, was progress in e-mail, such as AOL [message #353435 is a reply to message #353423] Tue, 26 September 2017 00:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charles Richmond is currently offline  Charles Richmond
Messages: 2754
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 9/25/2017 9:04 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
> On 24 Sep 2017 21:59:47 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> When making a credit or debit card purchase, if the machine is slow
>> to respond I'll sometimes mime a crank on the side of it. Clerks get
>> a charge (ha-ha) out of it.
>
> When things are slow on something that should be quick, I
> sometimes say, "Later that same day ...".
>

Any technical delay means that they are "winding the Victrola"...




--
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
Re: learning Unix, was progress in e-mail, such as AOL [message #353442 is a reply to message #353298] Tue, 26 September 2017 05:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Kerr-Mudd,John

pechter@lakewoodmicro-fbsd-tor1-01.lakewoodmicro.com (William Pechter)
wrote in news:oq8lam$113$1@pechter.eternal-september.org:

> In article <PM000559DC718AAF69@aca414dc.ipt.aol.com>,
> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>> Peter Flass wrote:
>>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>>> Peter Flass wrote:
>>>> > jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>>> >> Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>> >>> simon@twoplaces.co.uk (Simon Turner) writes:
>>>> >>>> On 20 Sep, in article
>>>> >>>> <PM0005599E61AF92CD@aca40e80.ipt.aol.com> See.above@aol.com
>>>> >>>> "jmfbahciv" wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>> John Levine wrote:
>>>> >>>>>> In article <PM000559628D9137D2@aca40e5d.ipt.aol.com>,
>>>> >>>>>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>>> And how are people supposed to learn? I've found no
>>>> >>>>>>> "getting
>> started"
>>>> >>>>>>> books.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> Must not have looked very hard. Unix for Dummies has been in
>>>> >>>>>> print for a long time. Best book I ever wrote.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> That one was written for general users, not system
>>>> >>>>> administrators.
>> One
>>>> >>>>> has to know system administration before using when one owns
>>>> >>>>> the
>> system.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> But given that your "how are people supposed to learn" was in
>>>> >>>> response to an observation about people not bothering to learn
>>>> >>>> how to use tools (application software) properly, a book
>>>> >>>> written for general users is *exactly* what is needed... we
>>>> >>>> weren't talking about owning systems,
>> let
>>>> >>>> alone about system administration.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> You keep effectively insisting that, before one can learn to
>>>> >>>> drive a car, one must have a full understanding of advanced
>>>> >>>> mechanical engineering, be able to build an internal combustion
>>>> >>>> engine from first principles, have read papers on the exact
>>>> >>>> mechanisms by which tyres adhere to the road, be able to
>>>> >>>> troubleshoot problems in oil refineries, etc.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> It's a bizarre attitude to adopt in a world full of
>>>> >>>> counterexamples (computer owners who do not know system
>>>> >>>> administration but nonetheless seem to manage to use their
>>>> >>>> computers anyway).
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Indeed. It's not, after all, a million dollar mainframe. Learn
>>>> >>> by experimentation and doing.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> The first step suggested before playing is to do a backup of the
>>>> >> system. That is an operations task, not a beginning user task.
>>>> >> Making a mistake which requires a rebuild of the system is a
>>>> >> sysadmin task. All of these tasks require a user knowledge
>>>> >> beyond the scope of a beginner.
>>>> >
>>>> > All you need to back up are your user files. If you trash your
>>>> > system just reinstall from scratch and then copy back your
>>>> > personal data.
>>>>
>>>> Which device is scratch?
>>>
>>> Scratch is the install DVD or CD. Just tell it to erase the disk
>>> and do a clean install. If you downloaded your copy from the net,
>>> like most people,
>>
>> Which is a chicken/egg thing if you have dial-up.
>
> True... but if you are going to put Linux on the box you need
> to get it from either:
>
> 1. A CD/DVD vendor or another person with a high speed net connection
> (in the old days I'd download 24 hrs over dial-up if needed)
>
> So if you have linux on the box it either: Came with it preinstalled
> (System 76, Dell) or it was installed on your box by someone with the
> CD/DVD/USBkey.
>
> Linux DVD's sell for as little as $5.00 from internet vendors or Ebay.
>
>
>>
>>> the first thing you should do is burn a DVD before installing.
>>
>> I agree. However, no Unix books I've read have this as a first step.
>> Even Msoft had this as a first step in their "getting started"
>> instructions when someone bought a system.
>>
>> /BAH
>
>
> Don't forget. Unix used to only come from a hardware vendor with
> their hardware. Linux books often go through this step.
>
> Bill
>
>

You don't have to install some distros; e.g. Puppy Linux (I think the
older versions were/are a smallish 100M)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_USB

tinycore is 10M if you just want a commandline and little else. Bloat!
It's now 11M; and if you want a GUI (FLWM) 16M.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiny_Core_Linux
Re: learning Unix, was progress in e-mail, such as AOL [message #353443 is a reply to message #353434] Tue, 26 September 2017 05:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Bob Eager

On Mon, 25 Sep 2017 23:46:49 -0500, Charles Richmond wrote:

> On 9/24/2017 11:02 AM, JimP. wrote:
>> On 24 Sep 2017 14:45:51 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Bob Eager wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 14:35:09 +0000, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >> the first thing you should do is burn a DVD before installing.
>>>> >
>>>> > I agree. However, no Unix books I've read have this as a first
>>>> > step.
>>>> > Even Msoft had this as a first step in their "getting started"
>>>> > instructions when someone bought a system.
>>>>
>>>> The FreeBSD instructions (not in a physical book, but in the
>>>> Handbook, which is online) contains an Installation section, which
>>>> summarises what it is about to cover. It says:
>>>>
>>>> - After reading this chapter, you will know:
>>>>
>>>> * The minimum hardware requirements and FreeBSD supported
>>>> architectures.
>>>> * How to create the FreeBSD installation media.
>>>> * How to start bsdinstall.
>>>> * The questions bsdinstall will ask, what they mean, and how to
>>>> answer
>>>> them.
>>>> * How to troubleshoot a failed installation.
>>>> * How to access a live version of FreeBSD before committing to an
>>>> installation.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I will ignore the "on-line" requirement for the moment.
>>>
>>> How will someone know to choose FreeBSD? The Unix wars are worse than
>>> editor wars.
>>>
>>> /BAH
>>
>> Uhm, FreeBSD isn't exactly Unix.
>>
>>
> FreeBSD is *not* Unix??? I guess *no* more than Linux is Unix. Sun
> Microsystems and Bill Joy sure thought that regular BSD was Unix! Of
> course, then it became Solaris...

Theoretically, it never was. One should say 'UNIX-like system'. Whereas
Linux is 'UNIX wannabe'.

BSD is nearer to original UNIX than Linux is.



--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Re: learning Unix, was progress in e-mail, such as AOL [message #353447 is a reply to message #353434] Tue, 26 September 2017 07:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Mon, 25 Sep 2017 23:46:49 -0500, Charles Richmond
<numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:

> On 9/24/2017 11:02 AM, JimP. wrote:
>> On 24 Sep 2017 14:45:51 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Bob Eager wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 14:35:09 +0000, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >> the first thing you should do is burn a DVD before installing.
>>>> >
>>>> > I agree. However, no Unix books I've read have this as a first step.
>>>> > Even Msoft had this as a first step in their "getting started"
>>>> > instructions when someone bought a system.
>>>>
>>>> The FreeBSD instructions (not in a physical book, but in the Handbook,
>>>> which is online) contains an Installation section, which summarises what
>>>> it is about to cover. It says:
>>>>
>>>> - After reading this chapter, you will know:
>>>>
>>>> * The minimum hardware requirements and FreeBSD supported architectures.
>>>> * How to create the FreeBSD installation media.
>>>> * How to start bsdinstall.
>>>> * The questions bsdinstall will ask, what they mean, and how to answer
>>>> them.
>>>> * How to troubleshoot a failed installation.
>>>> * How to access a live version of FreeBSD before committing to an
>>>> installation.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I will ignore the "on-line" requirement for the moment.
>>>
>>> How will someone know to choose FreeBSD? The Unix wars are
>>> worse than editor wars.
>>>
>>> /BAH
>>
>> Uhm, FreeBSD isn't exactly Unix.
>>
>
> FreeBSD is *not* Unix??? I guess *no* more than Linux is Unix. Sun
> Microsystems and Bill Joy sure thought that regular BSD was Unix!

It was, then. It has since had all AT&T-derived code replaced with
open source.

> Of
> course, then it became Solaris...
Re: learning Unix, was progress in e-mail, such as AOL [message #353453 is a reply to message #353434] Tue, 26 September 2017 08:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: JimP.

On Mon, 25 Sep 2017 23:46:49 -0500, Charles Richmond
<numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:

> On 9/24/2017 11:02 AM, JimP. wrote:
>> On 24 Sep 2017 14:45:51 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Bob Eager wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 14:35:09 +0000, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >> the first thing you should do is burn a DVD before installing.
>>>> >
>>>> > I agree. However, no Unix books I've read have this as a first step.
>>>> > Even Msoft had this as a first step in their "getting started"
>>>> > instructions when someone bought a system.
>>>>
>>>> The FreeBSD instructions (not in a physical book, but in the Handbook,
>>>> which is online) contains an Installation section, which summarises what
>>>> it is about to cover. It says:
>>>>
>>>> - After reading this chapter, you will know:
>>>>
>>>> * The minimum hardware requirements and FreeBSD supported architectures.
>>>> * How to create the FreeBSD installation media.
>>>> * How to start bsdinstall.
>>>> * The questions bsdinstall will ask, what they mean, and how to answer
>>>> them.
>>>> * How to troubleshoot a failed installation.
>>>> * How to access a live version of FreeBSD before committing to an
>>>> installation.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I will ignore the "on-line" requirement for the moment.
>>>
>>> How will someone know to choose FreeBSD? The Unix wars are
>>> worse than editor wars.
>>>
>>> /BAH
>>
>> Uhm, FreeBSD isn't exactly Unix.
>>
>
> FreeBSD is *not* Unix??? I guess *no* more than Linux is Unix. Sun
> Microsystems and Bill Joy sure thought that regular BSD was Unix! Of
> course, then it became Solaris...

And the part you snipped, I corrected myself.
--
Jim
Re: learning Unix, was progress in e-mail, such as AOL [message #353463 is a reply to message #353376] Tue, 26 September 2017 10:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jmfbahciv is currently offline  jmfbahciv
Messages: 6173
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2017-09-25, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>>> On 2017-09-24, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 24 Sep 2017 14:45:43 GMT
>>>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> On 2017-09-24, Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> Nobody tells you to keep breathing during the install.
>>>> >>> Some things are left to common sense.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Damn, so _that's_ why I get so light-headed after pressing <enter>
>>>> >> and waiting to see whether it worked.
>>>> >
>>>> > no,no,no... You have to turn the crank located at the upper right-hand
>>>> > corner of the screen.
>>>>
>>>> My daughter used to give me funny looks for doing that, now she
>>>> does it too.
>>>
>>> When making a credit or debit card purchase, if the machine is slow
>>> to respond I'll sometimes mime a crank on the side of it. Clerks get
>>> a charge (ha-ha) out of it.
>>
>> I do the same thing but I get a wierd look from the clerk.
>
> Your clerks must be pretty strait-laced. I only get weird looks when I
> tickle the machine under the chin and start making "cootchy-coo" noises.
>
ROTFL. Thanks for the tip; I'll never try to do that.

/BAH
UNIX systems (was: learning Unix) [message #353467 is a reply to message #353443] Tue, 26 September 2017 09:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Geoff Clare

Bob Eager wrote:

> On Mon, 25 Sep 2017 23:46:49 -0500, Charles Richmond wrote:
>
>> On 9/24/2017 11:02 AM, JimP. wrote:
>>>
>>> Uhm, FreeBSD isn't exactly Unix.
>>>
>>>
>> FreeBSD is *not* Unix??? I guess *no* more than Linux is Unix. Sun
>> Microsystems and Bill Joy sure thought that regular BSD was Unix! Of
>> course, then it became Solaris...
>
> Theoretically, it never was. One should say 'UNIX-like system'. Whereas
> Linux is 'UNIX wannabe'.

Given which newsgroup this is, I suppose most people's perspective
on what systems are considered to be UNIX is going to be historical.
However, the statement "FreeBSD isn't exactly Unix" used the present
tense, which means the current situation is relevant...

Since around 1993/94 the UNIX trademark has been owned by The Open Group
and they only license systems that have made it through their UNIX
certification process (which involves passing many thousands of tests
based on the "Single UNIX Specification" aka POSIX.1 standard that is
jointly published by The Open Group, IEEE and ISO).

FreeBSD has not been certified by The Open Group, and so "FreeBSD isn't
exactly Unix" is true, in the sense that if a company tried to sell a
FreeBSD system and call it UNIX they would be committing a trademark
violation.

> BSD is nearer to original UNIX than Linux is.

That may well be true, but Linux is closer to the current UNIX standard
than BSD is (unless you count Mac OS X as BSD). This is not an
opinion - there are actually two Linux-based systems that have achieved
UNIX certification in recent years (2012 and 2016):

https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/brand3596.htm

https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/brand3622.htm

(Mac OS X has been certified since 2007).

--
Geoff Clare <netnews@gclare.org.uk>
Re: learning Unix, was progress in e-mail, such as AOL [message #353477 is a reply to message #353442] Tue, 26 September 2017 14:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jorgen Grahn is currently offline  Jorgen Grahn
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On Tue, 2017-09-26, Kerr-Mudd,John wrote:
....
> You don't have to install some distros; e.g. Puppy Linux
....

I guess you're talking about "live CDs". Installing Linux (or a BSD,
or whatever) in a VM is IMHO a better option for someone with a
recent-ish PC and disk space to spare. VirtualBox is good for this,
so good that I tend to forget I'm not running natively.

/Jorgen

--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
Re: learning Unix, was progress in e-mail, such as AOL [message #353478 is a reply to message #353435] Tue, 26 September 2017 14:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
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Registered: January 2012
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On 2017-09-26, Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:

> On 9/25/2017 9:04 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>
>> On 24 Sep 2017 21:59:47 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> When making a credit or debit card purchase, if the machine is slow
>>> to respond I'll sometimes mime a crank on the side of it. Clerks get
>>> a charge (ha-ha) out of it.
>>
>> When things are slow on something that should be quick, I
>> sometimes say, "Later that same day ...".
>
> Any technical delay means that they are "winding the Victrola"...

Whenever we're waiting for any new device to come up (formerly just
computers booting, but now just about anything from TVs to whatever),
I refer to it as "warming up". Probably not too many people get the
tube reference anymore...

--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
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Re: UNIX systems (was: learning Unix) [message #353483 is a reply to message #353467] Tue, 26 September 2017 16:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Bob Eager

On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 14:47:38 +0100, Geoff Clare wrote:

> Since around 1993/94 the UNIX trademark has been owned by The Open Group
> and they only license systems that have made it through their UNIX
> certification process (which involves passing many thousands of tests
> based on the "Single UNIX Specification" aka POSIX.1 standard that is
> jointly published by The Open Group, IEEE and ISO).
>
> FreeBSD has not been certified by The Open Group, and so "FreeBSD isn't
> exactly Unix" is true, in the sense that if a company tried to sell a
> FreeBSD system and call it UNIX they would be committing a trademark
> violation.

Exactly. What you wrote above is almost word for word what I said in a
lecture I gave about 5 hours ago.



--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Re: what's Unix, was learning Unix, was progress in e-mail, such as AOL [message #353487 is a reply to message #353314] Tue, 26 September 2017 19:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
John Levine is currently offline  John Levine
Messages: 1405
Registered: December 2011
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Senior Member
In article <20170924181036.9770eb55673109c93c3a7244@eircom.net>,
Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> Uhm, FreeBSD isn't exactly Unix.
>
> Not much is these days, getting the [tm] stamp costs serious money.

FreeBSD as at least as unix-ish as anything with a Unix trademark.
You can argue about the differences among the three BSD forks,
FreeBSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD but the differences are at a pretty low
level, device support and security audit model.

R's,
John
Re: learning Unix, was progress in e-mail, such as AOL [message #353518 is a reply to message #353478] Wed, 27 September 2017 01:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charles Richmond is currently offline  Charles Richmond
Messages: 2754
Registered: December 2011
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Senior Member
On 9/26/2017 1:52 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2017-09-26, Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>
>> On 9/25/2017 9:04 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>>
>>> On 24 Sep 2017 21:59:47 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>>> When making a credit or debit card purchase, if the machine is slow
>>>> to respond I'll sometimes mime a crank on the side of it. Clerks get
>>>> a charge (ha-ha) out of it.
>>>
>>> When things are slow on something that should be quick, I
>>> sometimes say, "Later that same day ...".
>>
>> Any technical delay means that they are "winding the Victrola"...
>
> Whenever we're waiting for any new device to come up (formerly just
> computers booting, but now just about anything from TVs to whatever),
> I refer to it as "warming up". Probably not too many people get the
> tube reference anymore...
>

In olden times. when one turned off the TV, the picture on the tube
would perceptibly collapse down to a single bright dot in the center of
the screen. It took about 15 seconds for that dot to fade out completely...

--
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
Re: learning Unix, was progress in e-mail, such as AOL [message #353545 is a reply to message #353477] Wed, 27 September 2017 14:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Kerr-Mudd,John

Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote in
news:slrnosl7g3.14au.grahn+nntp@frailea.sa.invalid:

> On Tue, 2017-09-26, Kerr-Mudd,John wrote:
> ...
>> You don't have to install some distros; e.g. Puppy Linux
> ...
>
> I guess you're talking about "live CDs". Installing Linux (or a BSD,
> or whatever) in a VM is IMHO a better option for someone with a
> recent-ish PC and disk space to spare. VirtualBox is good for this,
> so good that I tend to forget I'm not running natively.
>
> /Jorgen
>

True. My (this) computer is at least a decade old. (2006 says wikipedia),
but I've always looked for smaller faster distros.
Re: learning Unix, was progress in e-mail, such as AOL [message #353576 is a reply to message #353545] Thu, 28 September 2017 05:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jorgen Grahn is currently offline  Jorgen Grahn
Messages: 606
Registered: March 2012
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Senior Member
On Wed, 2017-09-27, Kerr-Mudd,John wrote:
> Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote in
> news:slrnosl7g3.14au.grahn+nntp@frailea.sa.invalid:
>
>> On Tue, 2017-09-26, Kerr-Mudd,John wrote:
>> ...
>>> You don't have to install some distros; e.g. Puppy Linux
>> ...
>>
>> I guess you're talking about "live CDs". Installing Linux (or a BSD,
>> or whatever) in a VM is IMHO a better option for someone with a
>> recent-ish PC and disk space to spare. VirtualBox is good for this,
>> so good that I tend to forget I'm not running natively.

> True. My (this) computer is at least a decade old. (2006 says wikipedia),
> but I've always looked for smaller faster distros.

Ok, although I didn't write primarily about old PCs or smaller distros.

If I /am/ going to write about it, it's AFAICT not so much about
smaller faster distros, as about not running the bloatware you don't
need, such as Gnome. I don't think there are any distributions which
force you to do that.

/Jorgen

--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
Re: learning Unix, was progress in e-mail, such as AOL [message #353603 is a reply to message #353518] Thu, 28 September 2017 17:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
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Senior Member
On Wednesday, September 27, 2017 at 1:51:48 AM UTC-4, Charles Richmond wrote:

> In olden times. when one turned off the TV, the picture on the tube
> would perceptibly collapse down to a single bright dot in the center of
> the screen. It took about 15 seconds for that dot to fade out completely...

Just out of curiosity, why did the old TV's do that? It seemed
to happen more on b&w sets than color.
Re: learning Unix, was progress in e-mail, such as AOL [message #353604 is a reply to message #353603] Thu, 28 September 2017 17:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Tim Streater

In article <bd6f09cc-6f51-48d0-b8f3-7ef85cddc821@googlegroups.com>,
<hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:

> On Wednesday, September 27, 2017 at 1:51:48 AM UTC-4, Charles Richmond wrote:
>
>> In olden times. when one turned off the TV, the picture on the tube
>> would perceptibly collapse down to a single bright dot in the center of
>> the screen. It took about 15 seconds for that dot to fade out completely...
>
> Just out of curiosity, why did the old TV's do that? It seemed
> to happen more on b&w sets than color.

Speculating:

Residual HT, electrons still being emitted because the cathode takes a
while to cool, and a spot in the centre because power to the beam
deflectors had gone.

I expect by the time colour tellies had arrived, they'd figured a way
to earth the HT on the tube, so there was no longer a tendency for
electrons to continue beaming to the screen. Perhaps that might be a
safety thing too, wasn't the HT rather higher on a colour tube? The
beam still being on for a few seconds might have damaged the shadow
mask.

--
"Once you adopt the unix paradigm, the variants cease to be a problem - you
bitch, of course, but that's because bitching is fun, unlike M$ OS's, where
bitching is required to keep your head from exploding." - S Stremler in afc
Re: learning Unix, was progress in e-mail, such as AOL [message #353605 is a reply to message #353604] Thu, 28 September 2017 19:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Bob Eager

On Thu, 28 Sep 2017 22:30:43 +0100, Tim Streater wrote:

> In article <bd6f09cc-6f51-48d0-b8f3-7ef85cddc821@googlegroups.com>,
> <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, September 27, 2017 at 1:51:48 AM UTC-4, Charles Richmond
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In olden times. when one turned off the TV, the picture on the tube
>>> would perceptibly collapse down to a single bright dot in the center
>>> of the screen. It took about 15 seconds for that dot to fade out
>>> completely...
>>
>> Just out of curiosity, why did the old TV's do that? It seemed to
>> happen more on b&w sets than color.
>
> Speculating:
>
> Residual HT, electrons still being emitted because the cathode takes a
> while to cool, and a spot in the centre because power to the beam
> deflectors had gone.
>
> I expect by the time colour tellies had arrived, they'd figured a way to
> earth the HT on the tube, so there was no longer a tendency for
> electrons to continue beaming to the screen. Perhaps that might be a
> safety thing too, wasn't the HT rather higher on a colour tube? The beam
> still being on for a few seconds might have damaged the shadow mask.

I wonder if the beams also got out of sync with the shadown mask.

--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Re: learning Unix, was progress in e-mail, such as AOL [message #353612 is a reply to message #353603] Fri, 29 September 2017 02:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
On Thu, 28 Sep 2017 14:06:31 -0700 (PDT)
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:

> On Wednesday, September 27, 2017 at 1:51:48 AM UTC-4, Charles Richmond
> wrote:
>
>> In olden times. when one turned off the TV, the picture on the tube
>> would perceptibly collapse down to a single bright dot in the center of
>> the screen. It took about 15 seconds for that dot to fade out
>> completely...
>
> Just out of curiosity, why did the old TV's do that? It seemed
> to happen more on b&w sets than color.

I always thought it was down to the energy stored in the coils,
capacitors and tube bleeding off, resonance should keep the spot moving in
the normal pattern at ever decreasing amplitude and intensity as the voltage
decays from the initial several kilovolts.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: learning Unix, was progress in e-mail, such as AOL [message #353619 is a reply to message #353612] Fri, 29 September 2017 11:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
On 2017-09-29, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> On Thu, 28 Sep 2017 14:06:31 -0700 (PDT)
> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, September 27, 2017 at 1:51:48 AM UTC-4, Charles Richmond
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In olden times. when one turned off the TV, the picture on the tube
>>> would perceptibly collapse down to a single bright dot in the center of
>>> the screen. It took about 15 seconds for that dot to fade out
>>> completely...
>>
>> Just out of curiosity, why did the old TV's do that? It seemed
>> to happen more on b&w sets than color.
>
> I always thought it was down to the energy stored in the coils,
> capacitors and tube bleeding off, resonance should keep the spot moving in
> the normal pattern at ever decreasing amplitude and intensity as the voltage
> decays from the initial several kilovolts.

I think the oscillations damped out pretty quickly without power to drive
them. I seem to recall that the vertical sweep died out more quickly (IIRC
the horizontal relied partly on ringing in the coils), so the image would
collapse into a horizontal line which quickly shrank to a dot.

--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
Re: learning Unix, was progress in e-mail, such as AOL [message #353650 is a reply to message #353619] Sat, 30 September 2017 11:00 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
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On 29 Sep 2017 15:41:53 GMT
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> On 2017-09-29, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 28 Sep 2017 14:06:31 -0700 (PDT)
>> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, September 27, 2017 at 1:51:48 AM UTC-4, Charles Richmond
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In olden times. when one turned off the TV, the picture on the tube
>>>> would perceptibly collapse down to a single bright dot in the center
>>>> of the screen. It took about 15 seconds for that dot to fade out
>>>> completely...
>>>
>>> Just out of curiosity, why did the old TV's do that? It seemed
>>> to happen more on b&w sets than color.
>>
>> I always thought it was down to the energy stored in the coils,
>> capacitors and tube bleeding off, resonance should keep the spot moving
>> in the normal pattern at ever decreasing amplitude and intensity as the
>> voltage decays from the initial several kilovolts.
>
> I think the oscillations damped out pretty quickly without power to drive
> them. I seem to recall that the vertical sweep died out more quickly
> (IIRC the horizontal relied partly on ringing in the coils), so the image
> would collapse into a horizontal line which quickly shrank to a dot.

There were bleed resistors on all the big capacitors on the TVs I
dismantled, without them those big paper ones could pack a nasty wallop for
hours.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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