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| Re: modern programming languages? [message #348788 is a reply to message #348783] |
Wed, 19 July 2017 17:27   |
Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
> Could someone describe what are the most common computer languages
> used today for applications?
>
> How about to program applications for 'smart phones'?
>
> Thanks.
>
> A while ago a school held a 'hackathon' for young programmers. They
> talked about coding, but didn't mention the language (see link below).
> What languages would they have used?
>
> http://www.chestnuthilllocal.com/2016/03/30/two-gfs-juniors- to-host-citys-first-high-school-hackathon/
The link does mention languages, twice.
Once the author admits he tried C++ and it was too hard. Then:
When did you first start coding?
J: I started coding in fifth grade when I discovered the HTML layout
in Microsoft Word. I googled HTML, found a tutorial, and the rest was
history.
So, this is HTML. Add some CSS and Javascript and you can do a lot of
web stuff.
Some of us that wrote programs for a living might deny that this is
coding. But the world can accomodate all kinds of skill levels.
I've only read about Smart Phone programming, no experience of my own
but they are supposed to favor Java.
--
Dan Espen
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| Re: modern programming languages? [message #348792 is a reply to message #348788] |
Wed, 19 July 2017 18:42 |
Michael Black
Messages: 2799
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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On Wed, 19 Jul 2017, Dan Espen wrote:
> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>
>> Could someone describe what are the most common computer languages
>> used today for applications?
>>
>> How about to program applications for 'smart phones'?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> A while ago a school held a 'hackathon' for young programmers. They
>> talked about coding, but didn't mention the language (see link below).
>> What languages would they have used?
>>
>> http://www.chestnuthilllocal.com/2016/03/30/two-gfs-juniors- to-host-citys-first-high-school-hackathon/
>
> The link does mention languages, twice.
>
> Once the author admits he tried C++ and it was too hard. Then:
>
> When did you first start coding?
>
> J: I started coding in fifth grade when I discovered the HTML layout
> in Microsoft Word. I googled HTML, found a tutorial, and the rest was
> history.
>
> So, this is HTML. Add some CSS and Javascript and you can do a lot of
> web stuff.
>
> Some of us that wrote programs for a living might deny that this is
> coding. But the world can accomodate all kinds of skill levels.
>
> I've only read about Smart Phone programming, no experience of my own
> but they are supposed to favor Java.
>
I don't like HTML being called a "programming language". It's a markup
lnaguage, it's not a program. One reason to move it elsewhere is that in
1996, when we briefly had a "Freenet" in Montreal, they made it sound like
a programming language that required some level of effort to pursue it. I
think that was a downfall, people saw "programming" and avoided it. It's
about layout. And I'm not sure something learned from HTML helps to move
to a programming language.
There is a definite need for people who can make webpages, but programming
is something else.
Michael
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| Re: modern programming languages? [message #348793 is a reply to message #348788] |
Wed, 19 July 2017 18:56 |
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Originally posted by: Bob Eager
On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 17:27:36 -0400, Dan Espen wrote:
> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>
>> Could someone describe what are the most common computer languages used
>> today for applications?
>>
>> How about to program applications for 'smart phones'?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> A while ago a school held a 'hackathon' for young programmers. They
>> talked about coding, but didn't mention the language (see link below).
>> What languages would they have used?
>>
>> http://www.chestnuthilllocal.com/2016/03/30/two-gfs-juniors- to-host-
citys-first-high-school-hackathon/
>
> The link does mention languages, twice.
>
> Once the author admits he tried C++ and it was too hard. Then:
>
> When did you first start coding?
>
> J: I started coding in fifth grade when I discovered the HTML layout
> in Microsoft Word. I googled HTML, found a tutorial, and the rest was
> history.
>
> So, this is HTML. Add some CSS and Javascript and you can do a lot of
> web stuff.
>
> Some of us that wrote programs for a living might deny that this is
> coding. But the world can accomodate all kinds of skill levels.
I don't count a markup language as a programming language at all. No
conditionals, for a start.
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
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| Re: modern programming languages? [message #348794 is a reply to message #348790] |
Wed, 19 July 2017 18:57 |
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Originally posted by: Bob Eager
On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 17:46:59 -0400, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 13:21:51 -0700 (PDT), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>
>> Could someone describe what are the most common computer languages used
>> today for applications?
>>
>> How about to program applications for 'smart phones'?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> A while ago a school held a 'hackathon' for young programmers.
>> They talked about coding, but didn't mention the language (see link
>> below). What languages would they have used?
>>
>> http://www.chestnuthilllocal.com/2016/03/30/two-gfs-juniors- to-host-
citys-first-high-school-hackathon/
>
> For Android it's Java.
> < http://www.androidauthority.com/java-tutorial-beginners-2-58 2147/>
> might be an interesting read. Even if you cannot/don't want to learn
> Java you can usually "click something together" with Android Studio.
>
> I guess C is still going strong. Reading a BYTE article around it's 10th
> anniversary (a crash curse from 1983) they ponder if the following to C
> is called D because it kind of derived from B. *g*
I did a lot of my early programming in the language from which B was
derived!
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
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| Re: modern programming languages? [message #348797 is a reply to message #348792] |
Wed, 19 July 2017 19:07 |
hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 at 6:41:33 PM UTC-4, Michael Black wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Jul 2017, Dan Espen wrote:
>
>>> Could someone describe what are the most common computer languages
>>> used today for applications?
>>>
>>> How about to program applications for 'smart phones'?
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> A while ago a school held a 'hackathon' for young programmers. They
>>> talked about coding, but didn't mention the language (see link below).
>>> What languages would they have used?
>>>
>>> http://www.chestnuthilllocal.com/2016/03/30/two-gfs-juniors- to-host-citys-first-high-school-hackathon/
>>
>> The link does mention languages, twice.
>>
>> Once the author admits he tried C++ and it was too hard. Then:
>>
>> When did you first start coding?
>>
>> J: I started coding in fifth grade when I discovered the HTML layout
>> in Microsoft Word. I googled HTML, found a tutorial, and the rest was
>> history.
>>
>> So, this is HTML. Add some CSS and Javascript and you can do a lot of
>> web stuff.
>>
>> Some of us that wrote programs for a living might deny that this is
>> coding. But the world can accomodate all kinds of skill levels.
>>
>> I've only read about Smart Phone programming, no experience of my own
>> but they are supposed to favor Java.
>>
> I don't like HTML being called a "programming language". It's a markup
> lnaguage, it's not a program. One reason to move it elsewhere is that in
> 1996, when we briefly had a "Freenet" in Montreal, they made it sound like
> a programming language that required some level of effort to pursue it. I
> think that was a downfall, people saw "programming" and avoided it. It's
> about layout. And I'm not sure something learned from HTML helps to move
> to a programming language.
>
> There is a definite need for people who can make webpages, but programming
> is something else.
There is a gray area with modern computer languages. While HTML
isn't really "programming" in the "classic sense", it is setting up
a computer to do a particular task by providing instructions. I guess
I would call HTML programming, albeit an easier language.
I don't think they called wiring a tabulator plugboard real programming,
but given the complexity of machines like the IBM 407 or 604, the
plugboard sure comes close to programming. The plugboard wirer had to
know the machine well, as well as have some logical thinking when
deciding whether to turn on or off various features and directing the
data paths. For example, on a multi-page invoice, you do want to page
eject at the buttom of the page but preserve sub-totals, you don't want
to duplicate the purchaser's address on subsequent pages, you do want
page numbers, etc. The information printed comes from different cards
(the 407 had two reading stations).
The first RPG, which was designed to replace a plugboard, is a
programming language.
Likewise in setting up a spreadsheet. Is that real programming? One
can use formulas, functions, and memory addresses to define the contents
of a cell. While highly automated, one can specify literal or variable
fields in page headings and footers. One can specify counters,
accumulators, sorting, and control breaks. An Excel guidebook is
pretty thick. (I would say the same about a database program.)
Indeed, is setting up a VCR programming? We give it a lot of
specifications to follow (most we ignore by default). Aside from start
time, end time, date, channel, and event, we set sound (mono, stereo,
SAP), the tape speed, counter, timestamp, input source, and indexing
(among other things, depending on the particular machine.)
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| Re: modern programming languages? [message #348799 is a reply to message #348792] |
Wed, 19 July 2017 19:55 |
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Originally posted by: JimP.
On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 18:42:37 -0400, Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca>
wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Jul 2017, Dan Espen wrote:
>
>> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>>
>>> Could someone describe what are the most common computer languages
>>> used today for applications?
>>>
>>> How about to program applications for 'smart phones'?
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> A while ago a school held a 'hackathon' for young programmers. They
>>> talked about coding, but didn't mention the language (see link below).
>>> What languages would they have used?
>>>
>>> http://www.chestnuthilllocal.com/2016/03/30/two-gfs-juniors- to-host-citys-first-high-school-hackathon/
>>
>> The link does mention languages, twice.
>>
>> Once the author admits he tried C++ and it was too hard. Then:
>>
>> When did you first start coding?
>>
>> J: I started coding in fifth grade when I discovered the HTML layout
>> in Microsoft Word. I googled HTML, found a tutorial, and the rest was
>> history.
>>
>> So, this is HTML. Add some CSS and Javascript and you can do a lot of
>> web stuff.
>>
>> Some of us that wrote programs for a living might deny that this is
>> coding. But the world can accomodate all kinds of skill levels.
>>
>> I've only read about Smart Phone programming, no experience of my own
>> but they are supposed to favor Java.
>>
> I don't like HTML being called a "programming language". It's a markup
> lnaguage, it's not a program. One reason to move it elsewhere is that in
> 1996, when we briefly had a "Freenet" in Montreal, they made it sound like
> a programming language that required some level of effort to pursue it. I
> think that was a downfall, people saw "programming" and avoided it. It's
> about layout. And I'm not sure something learned from HTML helps to move
> to a programming language.
>
> There is a definite need for people who can make webpages, but programming
> is something else.
>
> Michael
Indeed. Most html tutorial sites I went to when it came out called it
mark up as well.
--
Jim
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| Re: modern programming languages? [message #348801 is a reply to message #348793] |
Wed, 19 July 2017 22:15 |
Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> writes:
> On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 17:27:36 -0400, Dan Espen wrote:
>
>> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>>
>>> Could someone describe what are the most common computer languages used
>>> today for applications?
>>>
>>> How about to program applications for 'smart phones'?
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> A while ago a school held a 'hackathon' for young programmers. They
>>> talked about coding, but didn't mention the language (see link below).
>>> What languages would they have used?
>>>
>>> http://www.chestnuthilllocal.com/2016/03/30/two-gfs-juniors- to-host-
> citys-first-high-school-hackathon/
>>
>> The link does mention languages, twice.
>>
>> Once the author admits he tried C++ and it was too hard. Then:
>>
>> When did you first start coding?
>>
>> J: I started coding in fifth grade when I discovered the HTML layout
>> in Microsoft Word. I googled HTML, found a tutorial, and the rest was
>> history.
>>
>> So, this is HTML. Add some CSS and Javascript and you can do a lot of
>> web stuff.
>>
>> Some of us that wrote programs for a living might deny that this is
>> coding. But the world can accomodate all kinds of skill levels.
>
> I don't count a markup language as a programming language at all. No
> conditionals, for a start.
Plain HTML doesn't get you very far.
Add CSS and you have conditionals of a sort.
Still, CSS and HTML don't get you very far.
Add JavaScript and you have all the conditionals
you need to cross the barrier into programming language.
Someone else mentioned RPG. HTML is along the same lines without the
CALC section.
--
Dan Espen
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| Re: modern programming languages? [message #348808 is a reply to message #348792] |
Thu, 20 July 2017 01:00 |
Mike Spencer
Messages: 997
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> writes:
> I don't like HTML being called a "programming language". It's a markup
> lnaguage, it's not a program. One reason to move it elsewhere is that in
> 1996, when we briefly had a "Freenet" in Montreal, they made it sound like
> a programming language that required some level of effort to pursue it. I
> think that was a downfall, people saw "programming" and avoided it.
Everybody who used an Osborne I for office document prep presumably
used WordStar, the markup in which was roughly of the same complexity
as HTML. But nobody called it "programming".
> It's about layout. And I'm not sure something learned from HTML
> helps to move to a programming language.
Nor am I.
> There is a definite need for people who can make webpages, but programming
> is something else.
But, but...<petulant> it's not a real web page unless it has a MB or
three of java script. </petulant>
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Re: modern programming languages? [message #348809 is a reply to message #348792] |
Thu, 20 July 2017 01:12 |
Quadibloc
Messages: 4399
Registered: June 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 at 4:41:33 PM UTC-6, Michael Black wrote:
> I don't like HTML being called a "programming language". It's a markup
> lnaguage, it's not a program.
Didn't that change with HTML 5?
John Savard
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| Re: modern programming languages? [message #348811 is a reply to message #348790] |
Thu, 20 July 2017 02:40 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 17:46:59 -0400
Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
> I guess C is still going strong. Reading a BYTE article around it's 10th
> anniversary (a crash curse from 1983) they ponder if the following to C
> is called D because it kind of derived from B. *g* But seems there was no
> follow up to C yet.
D exists and is derived from C with OO implemented rather more
elegantly than in C++ by the simple expedient of not requiring it to also
be C.
https://dlang.org/ for more details.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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| Re: modern programming languages? [message #348812 is a reply to message #348801] |
Thu, 20 July 2017 02:37 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 22:15:29 -0400
Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Add JavaScript and you have all the conditionals
> you need to cross the barrier into programming language.
JavaScript is a programming language (functional style), it even
gets used outside of web pages.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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| Re: modern programming languages? [message #348814 is a reply to message #348792] |
Thu, 20 July 2017 03:38 |
mausg
Messages: 2483
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2017-07-19, Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Jul 2017, Dan Espen wrote:
>
>> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>>
>>
> I don't like HTML being called a "programming language". It's a markup
> lnaguage, it's not a program. One reason to move it elsewhere is that in
> 1996, when we briefly had a "Freenet" in Montreal, they made it sound like
> a programming language that required some level of effort to pursue it. I
> think that was a downfall, people saw "programming" and avoided it. It's
> about layout. And I'm not sure something learned from HTML helps to move
> to a programming language.
>
> There is a definite need for people who can make webpages, but programming
> is something else.
>
> Michael
>
A relative arrived a while ago, and asked me for a loan of a book
that her daughter could read to learn of programming. I pointed to
a line of books on the shelf, and said, "Take any". On thinking
of it later, I would say that it would be hard to beat the old BASICs
for that, that a child could type in, run, and see instant results.
Unfortunatly, I have no books on BASIC, is there even a BASIC available
for Windoze?. I like Ruby myself at the moment,.
There is a hexagram availaable for the iChing, which is something like,
"Difficulty at the Beginning, the superior man strive to improve."
--
greymaus.ireland.ie
Just_Another_Grumpy_Old_Man
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| Re: modern programming languages? [message #348817 is a reply to message #348814] |
Thu, 20 July 2017 06:43 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
In article <slrnon0juc.18s.mausg@smaus.xxx>, mausg@mail.com says...
>
> On 2017-07-19, Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> wrote:
>> On Wed, 19 Jul 2017, Dan Espen wrote:
>>
>>> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>>>
>>>
>> I don't like HTML being called a "programming language". It's a markup
>> lnaguage, it's not a program. One reason to move it elsewhere is that in
>> 1996, when we briefly had a "Freenet" in Montreal, they made it sound like
>> a programming language that required some level of effort to pursue it. I
>> think that was a downfall, people saw "programming" and avoided it. It's
>> about layout. And I'm not sure something learned from HTML helps to move
>> to a programming language.
>>
>> There is a definite need for people who can make webpages, but programming
>> is something else.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>
> A relative arrived a while ago, and asked me for a loan of a book
> that her daughter could read to learn of programming. I pointed to
> a line of books on the shelf, and said, "Take any". On thinking
> of it later, I would say that it would be hard to beat the old BASICs
> for that, that a child could type in, run, and see instant results.
> Unfortunatly, I have no books on BASIC, is there even a BASIC available
> for Windoze?. I like Ruby myself at the moment,.
>
> There is a hexagram availaable for the iChing, which is something like,
> "Difficulty at the Beginning, the superior man strive to improve."
BASIC is built into Microsoft Office. It is a highly extended
implementation that can control Office and also attach to other software
that provides COM interface.
A somewhat different BASIC is also one of the languages supported in Visual
Studio, which is free for personal and limited commercial use. Neither of
these is interactive though.
If you want a popular language today that you can type in and see instant
results, look at Python.
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| Re: modern programming languages? [message #348818 is a reply to message #348783] |
Thu, 20 July 2017 06:57 |
Stephen Wolstenholme
Messages: 231
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 13:21:51 -0700 (PDT), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> Could someone describe what are the most common computer languages
> used today for applications?
>
Many languages can be used to create Windows applications. I've used
Microsoft Visual C++ since it became available in 1993. Before that I
used Borland C++.
> How about to program applications for 'smart phones'?
Any that support Android.
Steve
--
http://www.npsnn.com
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| Re: modern programming languages? [message #348819 is a reply to message #348817] |
Thu, 20 July 2017 07:12 |
mausg
Messages: 2483
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2017-07-20, J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> In article <slrnon0juc.18s.mausg@smaus.xxx>, mausg@mail.com says...
>>
>> On 2017-07-19, Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 19 Jul 2017, Dan Espen wrote:
>>>
>>>> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I don't like HTML being called a "programming language". It's a markup
>>> lnaguage, it's not a program. One reason to move it elsewhere is that in
>>> 1996, when we briefly had a "Freenet" in Montreal, they made it sound like
>>> a programming language that required some level of effort to pursue it. I
>>> think that was a downfall, people saw "programming" and avoided it. It's
>>> about layout. And I'm not sure something learned from HTML helps to move
>>> to a programming language.
>>>
>>> There is a definite need for people who can make webpages, but programming
>>> is something else.
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>
>> A relative arrived a while ago, and asked me for a loan of a book
>> that her daughter could read to learn of programming. I pointed to
>> a line of books on the shelf, and said, "Take any". On thinking
>> of it later, I would say that it would be hard to beat the old BASICs
>> for that, that a child could type in, run, and see instant results.
>> Unfortunatly, I have no books on BASIC, is there even a BASIC available
>> for Windoze?. I like Ruby myself at the moment,.
>>
>> There is a hexagram availaable for the iChing, which is something like,
>> "Difficulty at the Beginning, the superior man strive to improve."
>
> BASIC is built into Microsoft Office. It is a highly extended
> implementation that can control Office and also attach to other software
> that provides COM interface.
>
> A somewhat different BASIC is also one of the languages supported in Visual
> Studio, which is free for personal and limited commercial use. Neither of
> these is interactive though.
>
> If you want a popular language today that you can type in and see instant
> results, look at Python.
>
>
Python may have problems with two things, the 2->3 divide (which
learners can solve by only dealing with 3), and the indentation issue,
which is convenient when one is used to it),,
Whole idea of command line convenient languages would be learners
trying to mentally connect these with the typical Windows click-n-run stuff.
--
greymaus.ireland.ie
Just_Another_Grumpy_Old_Man
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| Re: modern programming languages? [message #348820 is a reply to message #348814] |
Thu, 20 July 2017 09:05 |
Gordon Henderson
Messages: 73
Registered: April 2013
Karma: 0
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Member |
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In article <slrnon0juc.18s.mausg@smaus.xxx>, <mausg@mail.com> wrote:
> On 2017-07-19, Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> wrote:
> A relative arrived a while ago, and asked me for a loan of a book
> that her daughter could read to learn of programming. I pointed to
> a line of books on the shelf, and said, "Take any". On thinking
> of it later, I would say that it would be hard to beat the old BASICs
> for that, that a child could type in, run, and see instant results.
> Unfortunatly, I have no books on BASIC, is there even a BASIC available
> for Windoze?. I like Ruby myself at the moment,.
A few years ago I wrote myself a BASIC from scratch - essentially it
is the BASIC I always wanted, so was a bit of a personal project.
It happened at about the same time as the Raspberry Pi come into being
and so as I'd developed it under Linux, it "just worked" on the Pi, and
life was good - I added in GPIO stuff, etc.
Some time later I was approached by some folks who wanted to create
their own customised version and make it work on other platforms, so we
negotiated a deal (am I the only person this millenia to sell a BASIC
interpreter? :-) and their version is out there and they have ported it
to MS Windows and other platforms:
http://www.fuze.co.uk/download-fuze.html
the FUZE version is now quite different from mine though.
Mine is still called RTB (Return to BASICs) and I need to find some time
to make another (Linux) release of it as I have some new features in it.
Gordon
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| Re: modern programming languages? [message #348829 is a reply to message #348820] |
Thu, 20 July 2017 11:01 |
mausg
Messages: 2483
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2017-07-20, Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> wrote:
> In article <slrnon0juc.18s.mausg@smaus.xxx>, <mausg@mail.com> wrote:
>> On 2017-07-19, Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> wrote:
>
>> A relative arrived a while ago, and asked me for a loan of a book
>> that her daughter could read to learn of programming. I pointed to
>> a line of books on the shelf, and said, "Take any". On thinking
>> of it later, I would say that it would be hard to beat the old BASICs
>> for that, that a child could type in, run, and see instant results.
>> Unfortunatly, I have no books on BASIC, is there even a BASIC available
>> for Windoze?. I like Ruby myself at the moment,.
>
> A few years ago I wrote myself a BASIC from scratch - essentially it
> is the BASIC I always wanted, so was a bit of a personal project.
> It happened at about the same time as the Raspberry Pi come into being
> and so as I'd developed it under Linux, it "just worked" on the Pi, and
> life was good - I added in GPIO stuff, etc.
>
> Some time later I was approached by some folks who wanted to create
> their own customised version and make it work on other platforms, so we
> negotiated a deal (am I the only person this millenia to sell a BASIC
> interpreter? :-) and their version is out there and they have ported it
> to MS Windows and other platforms:
>
> http://www.fuze.co.uk/download-fuze.html
>
> the FUZE version is now quite different from mine though.
>
> Mine is still called RTB (Return to BASICs) and I need to find some time
> to make another (Linux) release of it as I have some new features in it.
>
> Gordon
Congragulations!
--
greymaus.ireland.ie
Just_Another_Grumpy_Old_Man
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| Re: modern programming languages? [message #348831 is a reply to message #348817] |
Thu, 20 July 2017 11:34 |
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Originally posted by: JimP.
On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 06:43:59 -0400, "J. Clarke"
<j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> In article <slrnon0juc.18s.mausg@smaus.xxx>, mausg@mail.com says...
>>
>> On 2017-07-19, Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 19 Jul 2017, Dan Espen wrote:
>>>
>>>> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I don't like HTML being called a "programming language". It's a markup
>>> lnaguage, it's not a program. One reason to move it elsewhere is that in
>>> 1996, when we briefly had a "Freenet" in Montreal, they made it sound like
>>> a programming language that required some level of effort to pursue it. I
>>> think that was a downfall, people saw "programming" and avoided it. It's
>>> about layout. And I'm not sure something learned from HTML helps to move
>>> to a programming language.
>>>
>>> There is a definite need for people who can make webpages, but programming
>>> is something else.
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>
>> A relative arrived a while ago, and asked me for a loan of a book
>> that her daughter could read to learn of programming. I pointed to
>> a line of books on the shelf, and said, "Take any". On thinking
>> of it later, I would say that it would be hard to beat the old BASICs
>> for that, that a child could type in, run, and see instant results.
>> Unfortunatly, I have no books on BASIC, is there even a BASIC available
>> for Windoze?. I like Ruby myself at the moment,.
>>
>> There is a hexagram availaable for the iChing, which is something like,
>> "Difficulty at the Beginning, the superior man strive to improve."
>
> BASIC is built into Microsoft Office. It is a highly extended
> implementation that can control Office and also attach to other software
> that provides COM interface.
>
> A somewhat different BASIC is also one of the languages supported in Visual
> Studio, which is free for personal and limited commercial use. Neither of
> these is interactive though.
>
> If you want a popular language today that you can type in and see instant
> results, look at Python.
>
I keep trying to find the time to learn QB64. Quick Basic 64.
http://www.qb64.net/
--
Jim
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| Re: modern programming languages? [message #348835 is a reply to message #348814] |
Thu, 20 July 2017 12:54 |
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Originally posted by: Rob Morley
On 20 Jul 2017 07:38:05 GMT
mausg@mail.com wrote:
> A relative arrived a while ago, and asked me for a loan of a book
> that her daughter could read to learn of programming. I pointed to
> a line of books on the shelf, and said, "Take any".
How old, how smart? "The C Programming Language" by Kernighan and
Ritchie is a brilliant little book for learning an actual programming
language. Sedgewick's "Algorithms" covers that area well. Kernighan
and Pike's "The Unix Programming Environment" provides context.
O'Reilly's "Running Linux" is as good a place to start as any for
hands-on system admin.
Those are of course all "classic" tomes that might be a bit dry and
dated (although I think they've aged well) - these days there's a
tendency to just sit the kid in front of a PC and point them at
something like https://scratch.mit.edu/
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| Re: modern programming languages? [message #348850 is a reply to message #348835] |
Thu, 20 July 2017 16:22 |
mausg
Messages: 2483
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2017-07-20, Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> On 20 Jul 2017 07:38:05 GMT
> mausg@mail.com wrote:
>
>> A relative arrived a while ago, and asked me for a loan of a book
>> that her daughter could read to learn of programming. I pointed to
>> a line of books on the shelf, and said, "Take any".
>
> How old, how smart? "The C Programming Language" by Kernighan and
> Ritchie is a brilliant little book for learning an actual programming
> language. Sedgewick's "Algorithms" covers that area well. Kernighan
> and Pike's "The Unix Programming Environment" provides context.
> O'Reilly's "Running Linux" is as good a place to start as any for
> hands-on system admin.
> Those are of course all "classic" tomes that might be a bit dry and
> dated (although I think they've aged well) - these days there's a
> tendency to just sit the kid in front of a PC and point them at
> something like https://scratch.mit.edu/
>
12. All the above are far too advanced, what I would like is
something she can type in a few lines, run, and see results
come out.
--
greymaus.ireland.ie
Just_Another_Grumpy_Old_Man
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| Re: modern programming languages? [message #348851 is a reply to message #348814] |
Thu, 20 July 2017 16:41 |
hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 3:38:07 AM UTC-4, ma...@mail.com wrote:
> A relative arrived a while ago, and asked me for a loan of a book
> that her daughter could read to learn of programming. I pointed to
> a line of books on the shelf, and said, "Take any". On thinking
> of it later, I would say that it would be hard to beat the old BASICs
> for that, that a child could type in, run, and see instant results.
> Unfortunatly, I have no books on BASIC, is there even a BASIC available
> for Windoze?. I like Ruby myself at the moment,.
QBASIC used to be included with Windows on the CD, but I don't know
if it still is. Perhaps it can be downloaded directly from MS.
It's not that big.
BASIC is powerful in that just a few simple lines of code will
do a lot of arithmetic. Admittedly since kids today have calculators,
it's not as impressive.
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| Re: modern programming languages? [message #348852 is a reply to message #348850] |
Thu, 20 July 2017 16:52 |
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Originally posted by: Gareth's Downstairs Computer
On 20/07/2017 21:22, mausg@mail.com wrote:
> On 2017-07-20, Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> On 20 Jul 2017 07:38:05 GMT
>> mausg@mail.com wrote:
>>
>>> A relative arrived a while ago, and asked me for a loan of a book
>>> that her daughter could read to learn of programming. I pointed to
>>> a line of books on the shelf, and said, "Take any".
>>
>> How old, how smart? "The C Programming Language" by Kernighan and
>> Ritchie is a brilliant little book for learning an actual programming
>> language. Sedgewick's "Algorithms" covers that area well. Kernighan
>> and Pike's "The Unix Programming Environment" provides context.
>> O'Reilly's "Running Linux" is as good a place to start as any for
>> hands-on system admin.
>> Those are of course all "classic" tomes that might be a bit dry and
>> dated (although I think they've aged well) - these days there's a
>> tendency to just sit the kid in front of a PC and point them at
>> something like https://scratch.mit.edu/
>>
>
> 12. All the above are far too advanced, what I would like is
> something she can type in a few lines, run, and see results
> come out.
>
>
Pace that it uses Reverse Common Sense, how about FORTH?
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| Re: modern programming languages? [message #348854 is a reply to message #348850] |
Thu, 20 July 2017 17:04 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 20 Jul 2017 20:22:12 GMT
mausg@mail.com wrote:
> 12. All the above are far too advanced, what I would like is
> something she can type in a few lines, run, and see results
> come out.
Python for good habits, BASIC for quick and dirty. Both available
on just about any OS you care to run.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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| Re: modern programming languages? [message #348859 is a reply to message #348799] |
Thu, 20 July 2017 18:05 |
Andreas Kohlbach
Messages: 1456
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 18:55:05 -0500, JimP. wrote:
>
> On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 18:42:37 -0400, Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca>
> wrote:
>
>> I don't like HTML being called a "programming language". It's a markup
>> lnaguage, it's not a program. One reason to move it elsewhere is that in
>> 1996, when we briefly had a "Freenet" in Montreal, they made it sound like
>> a programming language that required some level of effort to pursue it. I
>> think that was a downfall, people saw "programming" and avoided it. It's
>> about layout. And I'm not sure something learned from HTML helps to move
>> to a programming language.
>>
>> There is a definite need for people who can make webpages, but programming
>> is something else.
>
> Indeed. Most html tutorial sites I went to when it came out called it
> mark up as well.
I would say to call something a programming language it has either have
to have loops, branches and (what was the third?), or all of that. HTML
doesn't have any of it. Different for JavaScript then.
--
Andreas
You know you are a redneck if
you have spent more on your pickup truck than on your education.
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| Re: modern programming languages? [message #348860 is a reply to message #348801] |
Thu, 20 July 2017 18:15 |
Andreas Kohlbach
Messages: 1456
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 22:15:29 -0400, Dan Espen wrote:
>
> Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> writes:
>
>> On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 17:27:36 -0400, Dan Espen wrote:
>>
>> I don't count a markup language as a programming language at all. No
>> conditionals, for a start.
>
> Plain HTML doesn't get you very far.
> Add CSS and you have conditionals of a sort.
CSS is not a programming language either. It straightens out mistakes
done by HTML in its infancy. HTML should only tell "This is a headline",
"This is a paragraph", just layout. But nothing about the font size or
color. So
| <font color="blue">
was bad.
Here comes CSS creating colors, sizes and more.
> Still, CSS and HTML don't get you very far.
> Add JavaScript and you have all the conditionals
> you need to cross the barrier into programming language.
Javascript then *is* a programming language.
--
Andreas
You know you are a redneck if
you have spent more on your pickup truck than on your education.
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| Re: modern programming languages? [message #348861 is a reply to message #348851] |
Thu, 20 July 2017 18:16 |
Quadibloc
Messages: 4399
Registered: June 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 2:41:38 PM UTC-6, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> QBASIC used to be included with Windows on the CD, but I don't know
> if it still is. Perhaps it can be downloaded directly from MS.
> It's not that big.
QBASIC was included with MS-DOS on the floppy disks, but it hasn't been
included on CDs of Windows 95, let alone anything later, as far as I
knew.
John Savard
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| Re: modern programming languages? [message #348862 is a reply to message #348811] |
Thu, 20 July 2017 18:18 |
Andreas Kohlbach
Messages: 1456
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 07:40:33 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>
> On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 17:46:59 -0400
> Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>
>> I guess C is still going strong. Reading a BYTE article around it's 10th
>> anniversary (a crash curse from 1983) they ponder if the following to C
>> is called D because it kind of derived from B. *g* But seems there was no
>> follow up to C yet.
>
> D exists and is derived from C with OO implemented rather more
> elegantly than in C++ by the simple expedient of not requiring it to also
> be C.
>
> https://dlang.org/ for more details.
Okay. But first time I hear about it. Seems to not be used as much as C
even today (2017 that is for these reading vintage usenet articles in
2057. Btw. what is the average temperature on earth these days? ;-).
--
Andreas
You know you are a redneck if
you have spent more on your pickup truck than on your education.
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| Re: modern programming languages? [message #348863 is a reply to message #348852] |
Thu, 20 July 2017 18:25 |
mausg
Messages: 2483
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2017-07-20, Gareth's Downstairs Computer <headstone255.but.not.these.five.words@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 20/07/2017 21:22, mausg@mail.com wrote:
>> On 2017-07-20, Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>> On 20 Jul 2017 07:38:05 GMT
>>> mausg@mail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> A relative arrived a while ago, and asked me for a loan of a book
>>>> that her daughter could read to learn of programming. I pointed to
>>>> a line of books on the shelf, and said, "Take any".
>>>
>>> How old, how smart? "The C Programming Language" by Kernighan and
>>> Ritchie is a brilliant little book for learning an actual programming
>>> language. Sedgewick's "Algorithms" covers that area well. Kernighan
>>> and Pike's "The Unix Programming Environment" provides context.
>>> O'Reilly's "Running Linux" is as good a place to start as any for
>>> hands-on system admin.
>>> Those are of course all "classic" tomes that might be a bit dry and
>>> dated (although I think they've aged well) - these days there's a
>>> tendency to just sit the kid in front of a PC and point them at
>>> something like https://scratch.mit.edu/
>>>
>>
>> 12. All the above are far too advanced, what I would like is
>> something she can type in a few lines, run, and see results
>> come out.
>>
>>
>
> Pace that it uses Reverse Common Sense, how about FORTH?
>
Haw, haw, ha!
I am reminded of the Arab prince, whose favourite daughter, when visiting on
his yacht, moored at Nice, wanted to learn how to drive a car, so a top of
the range Mercedes was bought, and an area of Nice was cleared of traffic, she
started up the automatic car, didn't make it around the first corner, got bored
and went home. I am told the Merc is still in a garage in Nice. Moral?,,
Don't depend on children keeping up an interest.
--
greymaus.ireland.ie
Just_Another_Grumpy_Old_Man
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| Re: modern programming languages? [message #348864 is a reply to message #348850] |
Thu, 20 July 2017 18:28 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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<mausg@mail.com> wrote:
> On 2017-07-20, Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> On 20 Jul 2017 07:38:05 GMT
>> mausg@mail.com wrote:
>>
>>> A relative arrived a while ago, and asked me for a loan of a book
>>> that her daughter could read to learn of programming. I pointed to
>>> a line of books on the shelf, and said, "Take any".
>>
>> How old, how smart? "The C Programming Language" by Kernighan and
>> Ritchie is a brilliant little book for learning an actual programming
>> language. Sedgewick's "Algorithms" covers that area well. Kernighan
>> and Pike's "The Unix Programming Environment" provides context.
>> O'Reilly's "Running Linux" is as good a place to start as any for
>> hands-on system admin.
>> Those are of course all "classic" tomes that might be a bit dry and
>> dated (although I think they've aged well) - these days there's a
>> tendency to just sit the kid in front of a PC and point them at
>> something like https://scratch.mit.edu/
>>
>
> 12. All the above are far too advanced, what I would like is
> something she can type in a few lines, run, and see results
> come out.
>
>
Rexx, Logo
--
Pete
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| Re: modern programming languages? [message #348865 is a reply to message #348862] |
Thu, 20 July 2017 18:29 |
mausg
Messages: 2483
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2017-07-20, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 07:40:33 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 17:46:59 -0400
>> Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I guess C is still going strong. Reading a BYTE article around it's 10th
>>> anniversary (a crash curse from 1983) they ponder if the following to C
>>> is called D because it kind of derived from B. *g* But seems there was no
>>> follow up to C yet.
>>
>> D exists and is derived from C with OO implemented rather more
>> elegantly than in C++ by the simple expedient of not requiring it to also
>> be C.
>>
>> https://dlang.org/ for more details.
>
> Okay. But first time I hear about it. Seems to not be used as much as C
> even today (2017 that is for these reading vintage usenet articles in
> 2057. Btw. what is the average temperature on earth these days? ;-).
Wot about Go?.. Fairly simple typed in things seem very fast.
--
greymaus.ireland.ie
Just_Another_Grumpy_Old_Man
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| Re: modern programming languages? [message #348866 is a reply to message #348783] |
Thu, 20 July 2017 18:33 |
mausg
Messages: 2483
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2017-07-20, Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
> On 2017-07-20, mausg@mail.com <mausg@mail.com> wrote:
>> On 2017-07-20, Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>> On 20 Jul 2017 07:38:05 GMT
>>> mausg@mail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> A relative arrived a while ago, and asked me for a loan of a book
>>>> that her daughter could read to learn of programming. I pointed to
>>>> a line of books on the shelf, and said, "Take any".
>>>
>>> How old, how smart? "The C Programming Language" by Kernighan and
>>> Ritchie is a brilliant little book for learning an actual programming
>>> language. Sedgewick's "Algorithms" covers that area well. Kernighan
>>> and Pike's "The Unix Programming Environment" provides context.
>>> O'Reilly's "Running Linux" is as good a place to start as any for
>>> hands-on system admin.
>>> Those are of course all "classic" tomes that might be a bit dry and
>>> dated (although I think they've aged well) - these days there's a
>>> tendency to just sit the kid in front of a PC and point them at
>>> something like https://scratch.mit.edu/
>>>
>>
>> 12. All the above are far too advanced, what I would like is
>> something she can type in a few lines, run, and see results
>> come out.
>
> I suspect most kids are hugely disappointed with what you can do with a
> few lines of code.
>
> What about SonicPi?
>
>
Just looked it up before going to bed. Thats a really good idea.!
--
greymaus.ireland.ie
Just_Another_Grumpy_Old_Man
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| Re: modern programming languages? [message #348868 is a reply to message #348864] |
Thu, 20 July 2017 18:38 |
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Originally posted by: Bob Eager
On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 18:28:03 -0400, Peter Flass wrote:
> <mausg@mail.com> wrote:
>> On 2017-07-20, Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>> On 20 Jul 2017 07:38:05 GMT mausg@mail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> A relative arrived a while ago, and asked me for a loan of a book
>>>> that her daughter could read to learn of programming. I pointed to a
>>>> line of books on the shelf, and said, "Take any".
>>>
>>> How old, how smart? "The C Programming Language" by Kernighan and
>>> Ritchie is a brilliant little book for learning an actual programming
>>> language. Sedgewick's "Algorithms" covers that area well. Kernighan
>>> and Pike's "The Unix Programming Environment" provides context.
>>> O'Reilly's "Running Linux" is as good a place to start as any for
>>> hands-on system admin.
>>> Those are of course all "classic" tomes that might be a bit dry and
>>> dated (although I think they've aged well) - these days there's a
>>> tendency to just sit the kid in front of a PC and point them at
>>> something like https://scratch.mit.edu/
>>>
>>>
>> 12. All the above are far too advanced, what I would like is something
>> she can type in a few lines, run, and see results come out.
>>
>>
>>
> Rexx, Logo
+1 for REXX
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
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| Re: modern programming languages? [message #348869 is a reply to message #348861] |
Thu, 20 July 2017 19:04 |
hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 6:16:54 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 2:41:38 PM UTC-6, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>
>> QBASIC used to be included with Windows on the CD, but I don't know
>> if it still is. Perhaps it can be downloaded directly from MS.
>> It's not that big.
>
> QBASIC was included with MS-DOS on the floppy disks, but it hasn't been
> included on CDs of Windows 95, let alone anything later, as far as I
> knew.
If memory serves, QBASIC was part of the pre-loaded DOS on Windows 95.
Also, IIRC, it was on the CD-ROM for Windows XP.
However, that QBASIC won't run on the latest Windows as it's the
wrong bit size.
In searching, it appears QBASIC is readily downloadable from the web,
but they are, AFAIK, private web sites.
For a 12 y/o, I definitely reocmmend QBASIC as an easy entry level
way to see programming.
(As mentioned, it won't be as exciting today as 50 years ago since
we have pocket calculators and spreadsheets that can do a lot of
what BASIC did, and do it easier. My first BASIC program 50 years
ago did a bunch of calculations for which the only available
alternative to a kid was a pencil and paper, so it was quite impressive.)
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| Re: modern programming languages? [message #348870 is a reply to message #348850] |
Thu, 20 July 2017 19:36 |
Michael Black
Messages: 2799
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Thu, 20 Jul 2017, mausg@mail.com wrote:
> On 2017-07-20, Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> On 20 Jul 2017 07:38:05 GMT
>> mausg@mail.com wrote:
>>
>>> A relative arrived a while ago, and asked me for a loan of a book
>>> that her daughter could read to learn of programming. I pointed to
>>> a line of books on the shelf, and said, "Take any".
>>
>> How old, how smart? "The C Programming Language" by Kernighan and
>> Ritchie is a brilliant little book for learning an actual programming
>> language. Sedgewick's "Algorithms" covers that area well. Kernighan
>> and Pike's "The Unix Programming Environment" provides context.
>> O'Reilly's "Running Linux" is as good a place to start as any for
>> hands-on system admin.
>> Those are of course all "classic" tomes that might be a bit dry and
>> dated (although I think they've aged well) - these days there's a
>> tendency to just sit the kid in front of a PC and point them at
>> something like https://scratch.mit.edu/
>>
>
> 12. All the above are far too advanced, what I would like is
> something she can type in a few lines, run, and see results
> come out.
>
And that's a good reason for the language being an interpreter. You can
type in one line, and see what happens right away. You have to compile
with C, a side issue in itself, and less conducive to trying single lines
of code. Even with today's fast computers, I'm not sure I'd want to learn
with a C compiler. I did do it with machine language on the 6502, the
monitor making it easy to try single lines, and to single step.
Bob Albrecht (of People's Computer Company fame) had some books out about
leaning BASIC, I wonder if they are now available on the web.
But remember, Logo was intended to be a learning/play environment, not a
programming language, or at least not as an end in itself. You were
supposed to try things and make mistakes, and learn from that, and share
with the other kids, but by the time it got out of the learning lab, it
seems like the teacher stands at the front of the class and teaches
programming.
Michael
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| Re: modern programming languages? [message #348871 is a reply to message #348783] |
Thu, 20 July 2017 19:41 |
Michael Black
Messages: 2799
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Thu, 20 Jul 2017, Huge wrote:
> On 2017-07-20, mausg@mail.com <mausg@mail.com> wrote:
>> On 2017-07-20, Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>> On 20 Jul 2017 07:38:05 GMT
>>> mausg@mail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> A relative arrived a while ago, and asked me for a loan of a book
>>>> that her daughter could read to learn of programming. I pointed to
>>>> a line of books on the shelf, and said, "Take any".
>>>
>>> How old, how smart? "The C Programming Language" by Kernighan and
>>> Ritchie is a brilliant little book for learning an actual programming
>>> language. Sedgewick's "Algorithms" covers that area well. Kernighan
>>> and Pike's "The Unix Programming Environment" provides context.
>>> O'Reilly's "Running Linux" is as good a place to start as any for
>>> hands-on system admin.
>>> Those are of course all "classic" tomes that might be a bit dry and
>>> dated (although I think they've aged well) - these days there's a
>>> tendency to just sit the kid in front of a PC and point them at
>>> something like https://scratch.mit.edu/
>>>
>>
>> 12. All the above are far too advanced, what I would like is
>> something she can type in a few lines, run, and see results
>> come out.
>
> I suspect most kids are hugely disappointed with what you can do with a
> few lines of code.
>
> What about SonicPi?
>
But going in, it's a new thing. "Hello world" is about getting a result
with minimal effort. You learn from small bits, but also you get instant
feedback, it works, and that encourages you to keep going.
I remember typing in C programs 30 years ago, from books, and the C
compiler would churn because it was slow, and then a long string of error
messages would spew out and soon I gave up.
If you do it line by line, you learn syntax if nothing else, so a larger
program doesn't from escalating errors.
Michael
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