| Re: Stopping the Internet of noise [message #348373 is a reply to message #348323] |
Fri, 14 July 2017 13:51   |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2017-07-14, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>
>> On 14 Jul 2017 08:08:38 GMT
>> mausg@mail.com wrote:
>>
>>> For many years I have rgarded Mensa as a ripoff, like Opus Dei, or the
>>> Orange Order.
>>
>> A college friend of mine had the best description of Mensa I've
>> ever heard "A bunch of brain proud idiots".
>
> But no worse than a bunch of jocks showing off lifting weights.
"I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member."
-- Groucho Marx
--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
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| Re: Stopping the Internet of noise [message #348388 is a reply to message #348364] |
Fri, 14 July 2017 15:37 |
hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Friday, July 14, 2017 at 12:54:48 PM UTC-4, Michael Black wrote:
> That's where I wonder about intelligence. I've seen people who seem to be
> intelligent make stupid mistakes (and I'm not talking about minor errors),
> so can they still be intelligent? I guess some of it depends on how one
> defines intelligence. But if someone can't see anything beyond what's in
> front of them, is it upbringing or intellegence that stops them from
> looking further?
What is "intelligence", and what makes it 'high' or 'low'?
Some people are great at solving problems handed to them on a
piece of paper.
Some people are great at listening to a situation and picking
out the salient points and suggesting a solution. Related to this,
some people have a ability to "see" things that others do not. They
might notice details everyone else misses.
Some people are great at academia, but failures at life. Others are
great at life but failures at academia.
Our tech college had lots of kids who were great in math but poor
in verbal. Undoubtedly some liberal arts colleges have the
reverse. And there are the top colleges where the kids are great
in both.
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| Re: Stopping the Internet of noise [message #348391 is a reply to message #348314] |
Fri, 14 July 2017 16:31 |
Mike Spencer
Messages: 997
Registered: January 2012
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mausg@mail.com writes:
> Reading my way through "Quicksilver" at the moment. Is Stephenson a genius?.
Yes. See "superpower", infra.
> Dunno, but he is a hellaova good writer
Somewhere on the net [1] he says of himself, "I really am an idiot savant
whose 'superpower,' as the saying goes, is writing novels."
I just can't imagine what it must be like to be able to imagine all
the details of The Baroque Cycle, acquire and integrate the historical
alusions and relationships, pull it all together into a coherent story
and then actually write it all down so well. I can't imagine what
it's like to be able to do that.
In a famous paper, Thomas Nagel asked, "What is it like to be a bat?".
I assume we all believe that bats have experience. After all,
they are mammals, and there is no more doubt that they have
experience than that mice or pigeons or whales have experience. I
have chosen bats instead of wasps or flounders because if one
travels too far down the phylogenetic tree, people gradually shed
their faith that there is experience there at all. Bats, although
more closely related to us than those other species, nevertheless
present a range of activity and a sensory apparatus so different
from ours that the problem I want to pose is exceptionally vivid
(though it certainly could be raised with other species). Even
without the benefit of philosophical reflection, anyone who has
spent some time in an enclosed space with an excited bat knows
what it is to encounter a fundamentally alien form of life.
Stephenson is on the same tier (well, I *think* he is, but see
"superpower", supra :-) of the phylogenetic tree but I still can't
imagine what it's like to be him.
His REAMDE hits me the same way although it's not as stupendously
awesome as The Baroque Cycle.
[1] Ah, yes, here: https://www.nealstephenson.com/social-media.html
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Re: Stopping the Internet of noise [message #348393 is a reply to message #348287] |
Fri, 14 July 2017 16:36 |
Mike Spencer
Messages: 997
Registered: January 2012
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Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> writes:
> On 7/13/2017 6:47 PM, Michael Black wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 13 Jul 2017, mausg@mail.com wrote:
>>
>>> One of the mathematicians starved to death because the only one he
>>> trusted to cook his food, his wife, was unavailable.
>>
>> And yet, that could happen to anyone. It's not a reflection of genius.
>> It isn't likely to happen to many people, but it could happen to anyone.
>
> It is a reflection of Kurt Goedel's paranoia. He was convinced that
> someone was out to poison him and would only eat food prepared by his wife.
So he would be Goedel's Spoof?
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Re: Stopping the Internet of noise [message #348412 is a reply to message #348364] |
Fri, 14 July 2017 20:40 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
In article <alpine.LNX.2.02.1707141253230.14265@darkstar.example.org>,
et472@ncf.ca says...
>
> On Fri, 14 Jul 2017, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>
>> On 14 Jul 2017 08:08:38 GMT
>> mausg@mail.com wrote:
>>
>>> For many years I have rgarded Mensa as a ripoff, like Opus Dei, or the
>>> Orange Order.
>>
>> A college friend of mine had the best description of Mensa I've
>> ever heard "A bunch of brain proud idiots".
>>
> Nobody said you had to use your intelligence for something valuable.
>
> That's where I wonder about intelligence. I've seen people who seem to be
> intelligent make stupid mistakes (and I'm not talking about minor errors),
> so can they still be intelligent? I guess some of it depends on how one
> defines intelligence. But if someone can't see anything beyond what's in
> front of them, is it upbringing or intellegence that stops them from
> looking further?
>
> Michael
Intelligence is whatever an IQ test measures. It actually seems to have
little relation to abilty to function outside of an academic setting.
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| Re: Stopping the Internet of noise [message #348413 is a reply to message #348373] |
Fri, 14 July 2017 20:42 |
Charles Richmond
Messages: 2754
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 7/14/2017 12:51 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2017-07-14, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 14 Jul 2017 08:08:38 GMT
>>> mausg@mail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> For many years I have rgarded Mensa as a ripoff, like Opus Dei, or the
>>>> Orange Order.
>>>
>>> A college friend of mine had the best description of Mensa I've
>>> ever heard "A bunch of brain proud idiots".
>>
>> But no worse than a bunch of jocks showing off lifting weights.
>
> "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member."
> -- Groucho Marx
>
“He may look like an idiot and talk like an idiot but don't let that
fool you. He really is an idiot.”
-- Groucho Marx
--
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
---
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| Re: Stopping the Internet of noise [message #348414 is a reply to message #348364] |
Fri, 14 July 2017 20:50 |
Charles Richmond
Messages: 2754
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 7/14/2017 11:55 AM, Michael Black wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Jul 2017, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>
>> On 14 Jul 2017 08:08:38 GMT
>> mausg@mail.com wrote:
>>
>>> For many years I have rgarded Mensa as a ripoff, like Opus Dei, or the
>>> Orange Order.
>>
>> A college friend of mine had the best description of Mensa I've
>> ever heard "A bunch of brain proud idiots".
>>
> Nobody said you had to use your intelligence for something valuable.
>
> That's where I wonder about intelligence. I've seen people who seem to
> be intelligent make stupid mistakes (and I'm not talking about minor
> errors), so can they still be intelligent? I guess some of it depends
> on how one defines intelligence. But if someone can't see anything
> beyond what's in front of them, is it upbringing or intellegence that
> stops them from looking further?
>
ISTM that intelligence is like having a sharper knife. You can make
mistakes at a deeper level and perhaps more quickly... if you are
convinced that you are right... if you are "overly enamored with the
vertical pronoun".
No matter how intelligent you may be and how far ahead of others you may
see... there *is* a limit to your intelligence and you can quickly reach
it. Perhaps someone of great intelligence looks at a "stupid mistake"
and thinks that he sees something good beyond it.
--
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
---
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| Re: Stopping the Internet of noise [message #348416 is a reply to message #348343] |
Fri, 14 July 2017 20:54 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
In article <slrnomhdbr.4mk.mausg@smaus.org>, mausg@mail.com says...
>
> On 2017-07-14, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>> Michael Black wrote:
>>> On Thu, 13 Jul 2017, mausg@mail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> One difference seems appears to be that some will read something, and then
>>> turn around and repeat it, it can be quite obvious. But lots of times
>>> I've speculated about something, and then later read something that
>>> confirms it.
>>
>> My teachers told my folks what they had when I was in first grade. The
>> teachers wanted me to skip a grade but my father said no. Some
>> teachers were OK but at least half believed they had to punish me
>> for being smart. Grade school (K-8th grade) was boring but it
>> was bettter than working in the fields.
>>
>
> Making your teachers feel stupid is not a good career idea.
I figured out somewhere in middle school that most teachers are idiots. I
think that the thing that did it was that the teacher asserted that all
energy comes from carbon. I asked about nuclear energy, and after taking a
couple of days to mull it over she came back with "carbon-14", which told
me she was totally clueless on that topic. She's also the one who told us
that the correct answer to a test question about the principle on which a
jet engine operates is not anything do to with Newton's Laws, it is the
"principle of jet". Four years of engineering school, two years of
graduate study in aeronautical engineering, and ten years working as an
aerospace engineer later, I remained the only person I knew other than that
teacher who had ever heard of "the principle of jet".
I had a few good teachers but they were the extreme rarities.
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| Re: Stopping the Internet of noise [message #348417 is a reply to message #348388] |
Fri, 14 July 2017 20:56 |
Charles Richmond
Messages: 2754
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 7/14/2017 2:37 PM, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> On Friday, July 14, 2017 at 12:54:48 PM UTC-4, Michael Black wrote:
>
>> That's where I wonder about intelligence. I've seen people who seem to be
>> intelligent make stupid mistakes (and I'm not talking about minor errors),
>> so can they still be intelligent? I guess some of it depends on how one
>> defines intelligence. But if someone can't see anything beyond what's in
>> front of them, is it upbringing or intellegence that stops them from
>> looking further?
>
> What is "intelligence", and what makes it 'high' or 'low'?
>
> Some people are great at solving problems handed to them on a
> piece of paper.
>
> Some people are great at listening to a situation and picking
> out the salient points and suggesting a solution. Related to this,
> some people have a ability to "see" things that others do not. They
> might notice details everyone else misses.
>
> Some people are great at academia, but failures at life. Others are
> great at life but failures at academia.
>
> Our tech college had lots of kids who were great in math but poor
> in verbal. Undoubtedly some liberal arts colleges have the
> reverse. And there are the top colleges where the kids are great
> in both.
>
"Of what use is genius, if the organ is too convex or too concave, and
cannot find a focal distance within the actual horizon of human life?"
-- Ralph Waldo Emerson, "Experience"
--
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
---
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| Re: Stopping the Internet of noise [message #348429 is a reply to message #348416] |
Sat, 15 July 2017 03:08 |
Mike Spencer
Messages: 997
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
> I figured out somewhere in middle school that most teachers are idiots.
How old are you? I did jr high and high school in the 50s. Most of
those teachers had degrees in their subject matter. Some had PhDs in
their subjects. Several were between 65 and 80, meaning that they had
acquired their notion of pedagogy long before the new edu trends had
even sprouted. I had only one or two outright bad teachers and most
were between "pretty good if a bit limited" and "excellent".
Now teachers still have degrees but they're in "education". AIUI, a
degree in a taught subject is regarded as of little value if not an
actual liability by the edu establishment.
> Four years of engineering school, two years of graduate study in
> aeronautical engineering, and ten years working as an aerospace
> engineer later, I remained the only person I knew other than that
> teacher who had ever heard of "the principle of jet".
Have you posted that anecdote before? I'm sure I've heard of "the
principle of jet" before albeit in a similarly scornful context.
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Re: Stopping the Internet of noise [message #348430 is a reply to message #348429] |
Sat, 15 July 2017 03:54 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 15 Jul 2017 04:08:38 -0300
Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> I figured out somewhere in middle school that most teachers are idiots.
>
> How old are you? I did jr high and high school in the 50s. Most of
> those teachers had degrees in their subject matter. Some had PhDs in
> their subjects. Several were between 65 and 80, meaning that they had
> acquired their notion of pedagogy long before the new edu trends had
> even sprouted. I had only one or two outright bad teachers and most
> were between "pretty good if a bit limited" and "excellent".
Interesting, I went through senior school in the 70s in the UK, the
teachers were younger than that but otherwise a good match for your
description.
> Now teachers still have degrees but they're in "education". AIUI, a
> degree in a taught subject is regarded as of little value if not an
> actual liability by the edu establishment.
This explains a lot, it used to be that the distinctive difference
between primary and senior schools was that in the primary schools there
were teachers with teaching degrees and usually one teacher taught the
everything while in senior schools there were subject teachers with degrees
in their subjects. It seems to still be the case here in Ireland, I don't
know about the UK now.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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| Re: Stopping the Internet of noise [message #348438 is a reply to message #348414] |
Sat, 15 July 2017 07:38 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
In article <okbol2$aig$1@dont-email.me>, numerist@aquaporin4.com says...
>
> On 7/14/2017 11:55 AM, Michael Black wrote:
>> On Fri, 14 Jul 2017, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>
>>> On 14 Jul 2017 08:08:38 GMT
>>> mausg@mail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> For many years I have rgarded Mensa as a ripoff, like Opus Dei, or the
>>>> Orange Order.
>>>
>>> A college friend of mine had the best description of Mensa I've
>>> ever heard "A bunch of brain proud idiots".
>>>
>> Nobody said you had to use your intelligence for something valuable.
>>
>> That's where I wonder about intelligence. I've seen people who seem to
>> be intelligent make stupid mistakes (and I'm not talking about minor
>> errors), so can they still be intelligent? I guess some of it depends
>> on how one defines intelligence. But if someone can't see anything
>> beyond what's in front of them, is it upbringing or intellegence that
>> stops them from looking further?
>>
>
> ISTM that intelligence is like having a sharper knife. You can make
> mistakes at a deeper level and perhaps more quickly... if you are
> convinced that you are right... if you are "overly enamored with the
> vertical pronoun".
>
> No matter how intelligent you may be and how far ahead of others you may
> see... there *is* a limit to your intelligence and you can quickly reach
> it. Perhaps someone of great intelligence looks at a "stupid mistake"
> and thinks that he sees something good beyond it.
One thing that happens to smart people is that they get used to being the
smartest people in the room. When they start working with other smart
people, they have trouble getting over that notion, so they're pains in the
butt to work with.
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| Re: Stopping the Internet of noise [message #348439 is a reply to message #348429] |
Sat, 15 July 2017 07:41 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
In article <87fudyyy6h.fsf@bogus.nodomain.nowhere>,
mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere says...
>
> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> I figured out somewhere in middle school that most teachers are idiots.
>
> How old are you? I did jr high and high school in the 50s. Most of
> those teachers had degrees in their subject matter. Some had PhDs in
> their subjects. Several were between 65 and 80, meaning that they had
> acquired their notion of pedagogy long before the new edu trends had
> even sprouted. I had only one or two outright bad teachers and most
> were between "pretty good if a bit limited" and "excellent".
I'm over 60, I was in middle school (they called it "junior high" then) in
the '60s. I don't think there was a single PhD in the entire school.
> Now teachers still have degrees but they're in "education". AIUI, a
> degree in a taught subject is regarded as of little value if not an
> actual liability by the edu establishment.
Yep.
>> Four years of engineering school, two years of graduate study in
>> aeronautical engineering, and ten years working as an aerospace
>> engineer later, I remained the only person I knew other than that
>> teacher who had ever heard of "the principle of jet".
>
> Have you posted that anecdote before? I'm sure I've heard of "the
> principle of jet" before albeit in a similarly scornful context.
I probably have.
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| Re: Stopping the Internet of noise [message #348440 is a reply to message #348430] |
Sat, 15 July 2017 07:46 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
In article <20170715085433.44b34a097fa3def6302896a7@eircom.net>,
steveo@eircom.net says...
>
> On 15 Jul 2017 04:08:38 -0300
> Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
>>
>> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> I figured out somewhere in middle school that most teachers are idiots.
>>
>> How old are you? I did jr high and high school in the 50s. Most of
>> those teachers had degrees in their subject matter. Some had PhDs in
>> their subjects. Several were between 65 and 80, meaning that they had
>> acquired their notion of pedagogy long before the new edu trends had
>> even sprouted. I had only one or two outright bad teachers and most
>> were between "pretty good if a bit limited" and "excellent".
>
> Interesting, I went through senior school in the 70s in the UK, the
> teachers were younger than that but otherwise a good match for your
> description.
>
>> Now teachers still have degrees but they're in "education". AIUI, a
>> degree in a taught subject is regarded as of little value if not an
>> actual liability by the edu establishment.
>
> This explains a lot, it used to be that the distinctive difference
> between primary and senior schools was that in the primary schools there
> were teachers with teaching degrees and usually one teacher taught the
> everything while in senior schools there were subject teachers with degrees
> in their subjects. It seems to still be the case here in Ireland, I don't
> know about the UK now.
I know that my high school algebra teacher had not taken calculus. I
encountered an article in a model rocket magazine that had an integral in
it and asked her to explain it to me, with the result that she had never
seen math like that before. The geometry teacher (one of the few good
ones--one of the English teachers and the physics/chemistry teacher were
the others) explained it.
A friend of mine used to teach high school algebra. He has a PhD in
"education" and has never taken any math beyond algebra himself. He thinks
that because he struggled with it it makes him a better teacher. His
former students disagree--they tell me that he was entertaining but they
generally had not the slightest clue what he was was on about.
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| Re: Stopping the Internet of noise [message #348447 is a reply to message #348416] |
Sat, 15 July 2017 11:24 |
Charles Richmond
Messages: 2754
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 7/14/2017 7:54 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>
> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...]
>
> I figured out somewhere in middle school that most teachers are idiots. I
> think that the thing that did it was that the teacher asserted that all
> energy comes from carbon. I asked about nuclear energy, and after taking a
> couple of days to mull it over she came back with "carbon-14", which told
> me she was totally clueless on that topic. She's also the one who told us
> that the correct answer to a test question about the principle on which a
> jet engine operates is not anything do to with Newton's Laws, it is the
> "principle of jet". Four years of engineering school, two years of
> graduate study in aeronautical engineering, and ten years working as an
> aerospace engineer later, I remained the only person I knew other than that
> teacher who had ever heard of "the principle of jet".
>
"Pity the poor in bondage who have none to help them."
-- John Brown, abolitionist minister
> I had a few good teachers but they were the extreme rarities.
>
Being a good teacher has a great deal to do with attitude.
--
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
---
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| Re: Stopping the Internet of noise [message #348448 is a reply to message #348416] |
Sat, 15 July 2017 11:35 |
jmfbahciv
Messages: 6173
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <slrnomhdbr.4mk.mausg@smaus.org>, mausg@mail.com says...
>>
>> On 2017-07-14, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>> Michael Black wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 13 Jul 2017, mausg@mail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> One difference seems appears to be that some will read something, and
then
>>>> turn around and repeat it, it can be quite obvious. But lots of times
>>>> I've speculated about something, and then later read something that
>>>> confirms it.
>>>
>>> My teachers told my folks what they had when I was in first grade. The
>>> teachers wanted me to skip a grade but my father said no. Some
>>> teachers were OK but at least half believed they had to punish me
>>> for being smart. Grade school (K-8th grade) was boring but it
>>> was bettter than working in the fields.
>>>
>>
>> Making your teachers feel stupid is not a good career idea.
>
> I figured out somewhere in middle school that most teachers are idiots. I
> think that the thing that did it was that the teacher asserted that all
> energy comes from carbon. I asked about nuclear energy, and after taking a
> couple of days to mull it over she came back with "carbon-14", which told
> me she was totally clueless on that topic. She's also the one who told us
> that the correct answer to a test question about the principle on which a
> jet engine operates is not anything do to with Newton's Laws, it is the
> "principle of jet". Four years of engineering school, two years of
> graduate study in aeronautical engineering, and ten years working as an
> aerospace engineer later, I remained the only person I knew other than that
> teacher who had ever heard of "the principle of jet".
<GRIN> I wonder how she came up with that one.
>
> I had a few good teachers but they were the extreme rarities.
Yes. I think the difference was that the good ones were still
interested in learning.
/BAH
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| Re: Stopping the Internet of noise [message #348451 is a reply to message #348343] |
Sat, 15 July 2017 11:35 |
jmfbahciv
Messages: 6173
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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mausg@mail.com wrote:
> On 2017-07-14, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>> Michael Black wrote:
>>> On Thu, 13 Jul 2017, mausg@mail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> One difference seems appears to be that some will read something, and then
>>> turn around and repeat it, it can be quite obvious. But lots of times
>>> I've speculated about something, and then later read something that
>>> confirms it.
>>
>> My teachers told my folks what they had when I was in first grade. The
>> teachers wanted me to skip a grade but my father said no. Some
>> teachers were OK but at least half believed they had to punish me
>> for being smart. Grade school (K-8th grade) was boring but it
>> was bettter than working in the fields.
>>
>
> Making your teachers feel stupid is not a good career idea.
I never played that game because I was too interested in learning
new stuff. In this area, being smart is still not a good thing.
/BAH
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| Re: Stopping the Internet of noise [message #348458 is a reply to message #348438] |
Sat, 15 July 2017 12:47 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
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On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 07:38:11 -0400
"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> One thing that happens to smart people is that they get used to being the
> smartest people in the room. When they start working with other smart
> people, they have trouble getting over that notion, so they're pains in
> the butt to work with.
This is one good feature of streamed school systems, the smart ones
get put together and rapidly learn that they aren't the smartest (apart
from the one or two who are of course).
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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| Re: Stopping the Internet of noise [message #348459 is a reply to message #348440] |
Sat, 15 July 2017 12:54 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 07:46:52 -0400
"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> In article <20170715085433.44b34a097fa3def6302896a7@eircom.net>,
> steveo@eircom.net says...
>>
>> On 15 Jul 2017 04:08:38 -0300
>> Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> I figured out somewhere in middle school that most teachers are
>>>> idiots.
>>>
>>> How old are you? I did jr high and high school in the 50s. Most of
>>> those teachers had degrees in their subject matter. Some had PhDs in
>>> their subjects. Several were between 65 and 80, meaning that they had
>>> acquired their notion of pedagogy long before the new edu trends had
>>> even sprouted. I had only one or two outright bad teachers and most
>>> were between "pretty good if a bit limited" and "excellent".
>>
>> Interesting, I went through senior school in the 70s in the UK,
>> the teachers were younger than that but otherwise a good match for your
>> description.
>>
>>> Now teachers still have degrees but they're in "education". AIUI, a
>>> degree in a taught subject is regarded as of little value if not an
>>> actual liability by the edu establishment.
>>
>> This explains a lot, it used to be that the distinctive
>> difference between primary and senior schools was that in the primary
>> schools there were teachers with teaching degrees and usually one
>> teacher taught the everything while in senior schools there were
>> subject teachers with degrees in their subjects. It seems to still be
>> the case here in Ireland, I don't know about the UK now.
>
> I know that my high school algebra teacher had not taken calculus. I
That would have been difficult in our school, calculus was on the
syllabus. One of our maths teachers was a retired Cambridge maths professor
so he could quite easily stretch the best of us.
> A friend of mine used to teach high school algebra. He has a PhD in
> "education" and has never taken any math beyond algebra himself. He
> thinks that because he struggled with it it makes him a better teacher.
IMHO that opinion makes him an idiot - the best test of whether you
fully understand something is teaching it to someone who is not at all
familiar with it.
> His former students disagree--they tell me that he was entertaining but
> they generally had not the slightest clue what he was was on about.
To be expected because he probably hadn't either.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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| Re: Stopping the Internet of noise [message #348460 is a reply to message #348458] |
Sat, 15 July 2017 14:36 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
In article <20170715174750.d486433e2f72a1827b5aeb0c@eircom.net>,
steveo@eircom.net says...
>
> On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 07:38:11 -0400
> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> One thing that happens to smart people is that they get used to being the
>> smartest people in the room. When they start working with other smart
>> people, they have trouble getting over that notion, so they're pains in
>> the butt to work with.
>
> This is one good feature of streamed school systems, the smart ones
> get put together and rapidly learn that they aren't the smartest (apart
> from the one or two who are of course).
If there are enough "smart ones" to make that practical. In small town
America that isn't necessarily the case.
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| Re: Stopping the Internet of noise [message #348465 is a reply to message #348459] |
Sat, 15 July 2017 14:45 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
In article <20170715175434.701f5f16257e525009902cd4@eircom.net>,
steveo@eircom.net says...
>
> On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 07:46:52 -0400
> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <20170715085433.44b34a097fa3def6302896a7@eircom.net>,
>> steveo@eircom.net says...
>>>
>>> On 15 Jul 2017 04:08:38 -0300
>>> Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>> > I figured out somewhere in middle school that most teachers are
>>>> > idiots.
>>>>
>>>> How old are you? I did jr high and high school in the 50s. Most of
>>>> those teachers had degrees in their subject matter. Some had PhDs in
>>>> their subjects. Several were between 65 and 80, meaning that they had
>>>> acquired their notion of pedagogy long before the new edu trends had
>>>> even sprouted. I had only one or two outright bad teachers and most
>>>> were between "pretty good if a bit limited" and "excellent".
>>>
>>> Interesting, I went through senior school in the 70s in the UK,
>>> the teachers were younger than that but otherwise a good match for your
>>> description.
>>>
>>>> Now teachers still have degrees but they're in "education". AIUI, a
>>>> degree in a taught subject is regarded as of little value if not an
>>>> actual liability by the edu establishment.
>>>
>>> This explains a lot, it used to be that the distinctive
>>> difference between primary and senior schools was that in the primary
>>> schools there were teachers with teaching degrees and usually one
>>> teacher taught the everything while in senior schools there were
>>> subject teachers with degrees in their subjects. It seems to still be
>>> the case here in Ireland, I don't know about the UK now.
>>
>> I know that my high school algebra teacher had not taken calculus. I
>
> That would have been difficult in our school, calculus was on the
> syllabus. One of our maths teachers was a retired Cambridge maths professor
> so he could quite easily stretch the best of us.
>
>> A friend of mine used to teach high school algebra. He has a PhD in
>> "education" and has never taken any math beyond algebra himself. He
>> thinks that because he struggled with it it makes him a better teacher.
>
> IMHO that opinion makes him an idiot - the best test of whether you
> fully understand something is teaching it to someone who is not at all
> familiar with it.
>
>> His former students disagree--they tell me that he was entertaining but
>> they generally had not the slightest clue what he was was on about.
>
> To be expected because he probably hadn't either.
That is very likely.
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| Re: Stopping the Internet of noise [message #348466 is a reply to message #348416] |
Sat, 15 July 2017 15:30 |
hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Friday, July 14, 2017 at 8:54:14 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
> I figured out somewhere in middle school that most teachers are idiots. I
> think that the thing that did it was that the teacher asserted that all
> energy comes from carbon. I asked about nuclear energy, and after taking a
> couple of days to mull it over she came back with "carbon-14", which told
> me she was totally clueless on that topic. She's also the one who told us
> that the correct answer to a test question about the principle on which a
> jet engine operates is not anything do to with Newton's Laws, it is the
> "principle of jet". Four years of engineering school, two years of
> graduate study in aeronautical engineering, and ten years working as an
> aerospace engineer later, I remained the only person I knew other than that
> teacher who had ever heard of "the principle of jet".
>
> I had a few good teachers but they were the extreme rarities.
I thought most of my public school _teachers_ were reasonably good.
I didn't think as much of the administrators or school board personnel.
A lot of the school board personnel were just bureaucrats, spitting
out incomprehensible policy statements to justify their job. Heck
back in the 1960s Bel Kaufman wrote about that in Up The Down Staircase.
Teachers need two qualities--1) a mastery of the subject matter, and 2)
an ability to impart the knowledge to students.
Some teachers only have one or the other.
Feynman was asked to serve on a textbook committee (he wrote about this
in one of his books). He was shocked to find out how bad a science
textbook was, and that his colleagues on the committee didn't even
notice gross errors in fact.
It should be noted that the qualities of what is a good teacher are
very subjective and 'ratings' will vary from student to student.
As mentioned, I had a prof in college who liked to tell stories of
his experiences in industry. He spend about half the hour on the
textbook, then the other half on a story. I thought the stories
were very interesting at the time, and on the job they proved
most helpful as they gave me good tips on what to do and what not
to do in system design. Merely printing a page of formatted data
on it wasn't enough, I had to understand what the user wanted out
of the data and what he would do with that page of data, and
the stories were helpful to that end.
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| Re: Stopping the Internet of noise [message #348467 is a reply to message #348439] |
Sat, 15 July 2017 15:33 |
hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Saturday, July 15, 2017 at 7:41:06 AM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
> I'm over 60, I was in middle school (they called it "junior high" then) in
> the '60s. I don't think there was a single PhD in the entire school.
A lot of our public school teachers had master degrees, but I heard
there was a program to get a master's that wasn't particularly
demanding. Teachers got more pay if they had a master's.
The newspapers did report a scandal of some college issuing a very
weak PhD degree, and some principals and high school teachers did get
their degree from it.
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| Re: Stopping the Internet of noise [message #348468 is a reply to message #348466] |
Sat, 15 July 2017 15:38 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
In article <17e50470-d30b-497c-95b2-4ef08995734b@googlegroups.com>,
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com says...
>
> On Friday, July 14, 2017 at 8:54:14 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> I figured out somewhere in middle school that most teachers are idiots. I
>> think that the thing that did it was that the teacher asserted that all
>> energy comes from carbon. I asked about nuclear energy, and after taking a
>> couple of days to mull it over she came back with "carbon-14", which told
>> me she was totally clueless on that topic. She's also the one who told us
>> that the correct answer to a test question about the principle on which a
>> jet engine operates is not anything do to with Newton's Laws, it is the
>> "principle of jet". Four years of engineering school, two years of
>> graduate study in aeronautical engineering, and ten years working as an
>> aerospace engineer later, I remained the only person I knew other than that
>> teacher who had ever heard of "the principle of jet".
>>
>> I had a few good teachers but they were the extreme rarities.
>
> I thought most of my public school _teachers_ were reasonably good.
>
> I didn't think as much of the administrators or school board personnel.
> A lot of the school board personnel were just bureaucrats, spitting
> out incomprehensible policy statements to justify their job. Heck
> back in the 1960s Bel Kaufman wrote about that in Up The Down Staircase.
>
>
> Teachers need two qualities--1) a mastery of the subject matter, and 2)
> an ability to impart the knowledge to students.
>
> Some teachers only have one or the other.
>
> Feynman was asked to serve on a textbook committee (he wrote about this
> in one of his books). He was shocked to find out how bad a science
> textbook was, and that his colleagues on the committee didn't even
> notice gross errors in fact.
>
>
> It should be noted that the qualities of what is a good teacher are
> very subjective and 'ratings' will vary from student to student.
>
> As mentioned, I had a prof in college who liked to tell stories of
> his experiences in industry. He spend about half the hour on the
> textbook, then the other half on a story. I thought the stories
> were very interesting at the time, and on the job they proved
> most helpful as they gave me good tips on what to do and what not
> to do in system design. Merely printing a page of formatted data
> on it wasn't enough, I had to understand what the user wanted out
> of the data and what he would do with that page of data, and
> the stories were helpful to that end.
If you don't actually understand the business model then you can't generate
code that efficiently and effectively supports it.
Unfortunately many IT people think that they are smarter than the business
people and have nothing to learn from them.
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| Re: Stopping the Internet of noise [message #348469 is a reply to message #348447] |
Sat, 15 July 2017 15:41 |
hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Saturday, July 15, 2017 at 11:24:30 AM UTC-4, Charles Richmond wrote:
> Being a good teacher has a great deal to do with attitude.
+1.
The school system does a great job of burning teachers out. A
number of teachers left education to work in industry for that reason.
Being public, school systems are subject to all the latest political
pressures and whims. The legislature or Feds pass new laws, and more
requirements and burdens are passed down to the teacher in the classroom.
These policies usually make things worse, not better.
There are also community groups, pushing for various agendas.
Then you have the school board, which in smaller towns can be made up
of total turkeys, or people with a personal agenda. We somehow elected
a moron who felt all school employees were grossly overpaid (yet he
never said what a proper salary would be), and spent ALL of his time
arguing for cuts and layoffs. The anti-tax folks in the district
liked him, but he created a big mess. Fortunately, he was not re-
elected.
In fairness, sometimes a dingbat on the opposite extreme gets elected
to school board, and pushes an agenda of wasteful spending, no
discipline, basket weaving, etc.
Then there are the parents, either overly involved or non-existent.
Academic parents push for special treatment. Athletic parents push
for special treatment. Non existent parents have screwed up kids.
Lastly are the kids. 'nuf said.
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| Re: Stopping the Internet of noise [message #348470 is a reply to message #348460] |
Sat, 15 July 2017 15:56 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 14:36:39 -0400
"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> In article <20170715174750.d486433e2f72a1827b5aeb0c@eircom.net>,
> steveo@eircom.net says...
>>
>> On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 07:38:11 -0400
>> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> One thing that happens to smart people is that they get used to being
>>> the smartest people in the room. When they start working with other
>>> smart people, they have trouble getting over that notion, so they're
>>> pains in the butt to work with.
>>
>> This is one good feature of streamed school systems, the smart
>> ones get put together and rapidly learn that they aren't the smartest
>> (apart from the one or two who are of course).
>
> If there are enough "smart ones" to make that practical. In small town
> America that isn't necessarily the case.
The capture area for the top stream school was the whole county,
some kids were travelling 20 miles by bus to get to school.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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| Re: Stopping the Internet of noise [message #348471 is a reply to message #348460] |
Sat, 15 July 2017 16:28 |
Mike Spencer
Messages: 997
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
> In article <20170715174750.d486433e2f72a1827b5aeb0c@eircom.net>,
> steveo@eircom.net says...
>
>> This is one good feature of streamed school systems, the smart ones
>> get put together and rapidly learn that they aren't the smartest
>> (apart from the one or two who are of course).
>
> If there are enough "smart ones" to make that practical. In small town
> America that isn't necessarily the case.
I did elementary shool in a rural village where that was the case,
perhaps 4 kids who stayed ahead of the teachers all the way, a similar
number at the other extreme of the spectrum.
Moved to a city to start 7th grade -- jr. high was 7th to 9th there --
that was streamed. So I was in a class the members of which had, one
way or another, registered on the smart end of the scale. My mother
had had a notion that because I was "soooo bright" I should skip 7th
grade. I didn't think much of the idea myself and the city school
authorities nixed it. Both at the time and in retrospect, that proved
to be very fortunate. School was finally a place where I had to work
a bit to keep up and having friends that were interested in science
(or much of anything, for that matter) was a great improvement.
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Re: Stopping the Internet of noise [message #348473 is a reply to message #348447] |
Sat, 15 July 2017 17:48 |
Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> writes:
> On 7/14/2017 7:54 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...]
>>
>> I figured out somewhere in middle school that most teachers are idiots. I
>> think that the thing that did it was that the teacher asserted that all
>> energy comes from carbon. I asked about nuclear energy, and after taking a
>> couple of days to mull it over she came back with "carbon-14", which told
>> me she was totally clueless on that topic. She's also the one who told us
>> that the correct answer to a test question about the principle on which a
>> jet engine operates is not anything do to with Newton's Laws, it is the
>> "principle of jet". Four years of engineering school, two years of
>> graduate study in aeronautical engineering, and ten years working as an
>> aerospace engineer later, I remained the only person I knew other than that
>> teacher who had ever heard of "the principle of jet".
>>
>
> "Pity the poor in bondage who have none to help them."
> -- John Brown, abolitionist minister
>
>> I had a few good teachers but they were the extreme rarities.
>
> Being a good teacher has a great deal to do with attitude.
More so than knowledge in my opinion.
Never ran into a teacher that didn't know the subject matter.
Except for a geometry teacher that gave homework asking that we
draw triangles using the compass. One of the triangles had to be
1x2x3.
Of course it you try, the tool is imprecise and you will get a very
shallow triangle. I was the only one that pointed out that
there was no such triangle. Took about 15 minutes of explaining
and the teacher just never got it. She kept demonstrating how to do it.
--
Dan Espen
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| Re: Stopping the Internet of noise [message #348474 is a reply to message #348473] |
Sat, 15 July 2017 18:05 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
In article <oke2bg$dj9$1@dont-email.me>, dan1espen@gmail.com says...
>
> Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> writes:
>
>> On 7/14/2017 7:54 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>
>>> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...]
>>>
>>> I figured out somewhere in middle school that most teachers are idiots. I
>>> think that the thing that did it was that the teacher asserted that all
>>> energy comes from carbon. I asked about nuclear energy, and after taking a
>>> couple of days to mull it over she came back with "carbon-14", which told
>>> me she was totally clueless on that topic. She's also the one who told us
>>> that the correct answer to a test question about the principle on which a
>>> jet engine operates is not anything do to with Newton's Laws, it is the
>>> "principle of jet". Four years of engineering school, two years of
>>> graduate study in aeronautical engineering, and ten years working as an
>>> aerospace engineer later, I remained the only person I knew other than that
>>> teacher who had ever heard of "the principle of jet".
>>>
>>
>> "Pity the poor in bondage who have none to help them."
>> -- John Brown, abolitionist minister
>>
>>> I had a few good teachers but they were the extreme rarities.
>>
>> Being a good teacher has a great deal to do with attitude.
>
> More so than knowledge in my opinion.
> Never ran into a teacher that didn't know the subject matter.
> Except for a geometry teacher that gave homework asking that we
> draw triangles using the compass. One of the triangles had to be
> 1x2x3.
>
> Of course it you try, the tool is imprecise and you will get a very
> shallow triangle. I was the only one that pointed out that
> there was no such triangle. Took about 15 minutes of explaining
> and the teacher just never got it. She kept demonstrating how to do it.
Was her demonstration successful?
FWIW, I ran into one of those types in grad school. There was an undergrad
course I had to take as a prerequisite for one of my grad courses and the
TA who was teaching it taught us an incorrect technique and then marked as
wrong on an exam correct answers rather than the incorrect ones that his
technique yielded. Since that question was 10% of the grade this was a big
deal to a lot of the students. We tried to convince him and he wouldn't
listen. I dropped by his office the next day dressed for work and had a
few words with him. When his response to "do you have an interview today"
was met with "no, I'm taking time off from work" and "where do you work"
was met with "Engineering at UTC" he figured out that I could make more
trouble for him than he could for me and started listening.
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| Re: Stopping the Internet of noise [message #348475 is a reply to message #348262] |
Sat, 15 July 2017 18:05 |
Andreas Eder
Messages: 128
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Do 13 Jul 2017 at 20:34, mausg@mail.com wrote:
> One of the mathematicians starved to death because the only one he trusted
> to cook his food, his wife, was unavailable.
That was Kurt Gödel. He was at the IAS in Princeton (like Einstein).
A very famous and influential logician.
'Andreas
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| Re: Stopping the Internet of noise [message #348478 is a reply to message #348266] |
Sat, 15 July 2017 19:43 |
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Originally posted by: JimP.
On Thu, 13 Jul 2017 18:35:11 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> writes:
>
>> On Thu, 13 Jul 2017, mausg@mail.com wrote:
>>
>>> On 2017-07-12, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>>>>
>>>> > On Wednesday, July 12, 2017 at 5:47:10 PM UTC-4, JimP. wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> The actor who plays Sheldon has pointed out he is just saying what
>>>> >> is in the script.
>>>> >
>>>> > I know a fellow who could be a clone of Sheldon. He even has a
>>>> > favorite chair when he visits.
>>>>
>>>> So, he's an neurotic nut.
>>>>
>>>> The shows premise is that all intelligent people are like that.
>>>> Something to make the idiots that watch the show feel superior.
>>>>
>>> [adjusts pinc-nez]
>>>
>>> Now tell me why you think that way. Has it anything to do with your
>>> Mother?..
>>>
>> It took me a long time to grasp that I probably was more intelligent
>> than many people. There were some hints when I was young, but I
>> tended to think it was more I just had different interests and so I
>> wasn't forced into the restraints that I thought limited people. So I
>> never looked down on people.
>
> Not sure when I first thought I might be above average, but in junior
> high I happened to learn my IQ. By that imperfect measure I know I'm
> above average.
>
> Then I got admitted to Bronx Science HS, so I knew I was above average.
> But I learned a good life lesson while attending Bronx Science. All of
> a sudden I was struggling to reach average.
>
> Of course there are all kinds of smarts and Big Bang is trying to make
> that point. But the characters seem ridiculous to me, not even artistic
> license makes up for it.
>
> You seem to have got it but the mother comment flew right past me. I
> see Sheldon has a mother, but still don't get it.
>
> Not clear on the Pince Nez either.
Pince Nez are eyeglasses that pinch the nose to stay on. No earpieces.
--
Jim
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| Re: Stopping the Internet of noise [message #348481 is a reply to message #348310] |
Sat, 15 July 2017 19:56 |
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Originally posted by: JimP.
On 14 Jul 2017 08:21:17 GMT, mausg@mail.com wrote:
> On 2017-07-13, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> writes:
>>
>>> On Thu, 13 Jul 2017, mausg@mail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2017-07-12, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> high I happened to learn my IQ. By that imperfect measure I know I'm
>> above average.
>>
>> Then I got admitted to Bronx Science HS, so I knew I was above average.
>> But I learned a good life lesson while attending Bronx Science. All of
>> a sudden I was struggling to reach average.
>>
>> Of course there are all kinds of smarts and Big Bang is trying to make
>> that point. But the characters seem ridiculous to me, not even artistic
>> license makes up for it.
>>
>> You seem to have got it but the mother comment flew right past me. I
>> see Sheldon has a mother, but still don't get it.
>>
>> Not clear on the Pince Nez either.
>>
>
> Sorry, I had been celebrating an Important thing (renewing my driving
> licence).
>
> Pince-Nez used to be a part of the image of psychiatrists, and they as we
> know, cure people with problems by blaming those problems on someone
> someone else, usually their Mothers.
>
> Mensa, in my opinion, are a group of frauds that send you messages
> saying something like "By our tests, you seem to be a very smart
> person, so send us cash"
One of my relatives has an IQ high enough to join, and went to take
the test. My relative is not impressed by jackasses, no matter what
their intelligence level. The relative didn't join.
--
Jim
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| Re: Stopping the Internet of noise [message #348482 is a reply to message #348337] |
Sat, 15 July 2017 20:06 |
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Originally posted by: JimP.
On 14 Jul 2017 13:01:30 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
> Michael Black wrote:
>> On Thu, 13 Jul 2017, mausg@mail.com wrote:
>>
>>> On 2017-07-12, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>>>>
>>>> > On Wednesday, July 12, 2017 at 5:47:10 PM UTC-4, JimP. wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> The actor who plays Sheldon has pointed out he is just saying what is
>>>> >> in the script.
>>>> >
>>>> > I know a fellow who could be a clone of Sheldon. He even has a
>>>> > favorite chair when he visits.
>>>>
>>>> So, he's an neurotic nut.
>>>>
>>>> The shows premise is that all intelligent people are like that.
>>>> Something to make the idiots that watch the show feel superior.
>>>>
>>> [adjusts pinc-nez]
>>>
>>> Now tell me why you think that way. Has it anything to do with your
> Mother?..
>>>
>> It took me a long time to grasp that I probably was more intelligent than
>> many people. There were some hints when I was young, but I tended to
>> think it was more I just had different interests and so I wasn't forced
>> into the restraints that I thought limited people. So I never looked down
>> on people.
>>
>> I think it does work the other way. I must be wrong because I'm saying
>> something different, and then every so often, someone thinks they've
>> caught me at something. It does seem to come out like they are trying to
>> put me in my place. But they are wrong, I really have seen deeper than
>> them and I know that I'm right.
>>
>> One difference seems appears to be that some will read something, and then
>> turn around and repeat it, it can be quite obvious. But lots of times
>> I've speculated about something, and then later read something that
>> confirms it.
>
> My teachers told my folks what they had when I was in first grade. The
> teachers wanted me to skip a grade but my father said no. Some
> teachers were OK but at least half believed they had to punish me
> for being smart. Grade school (K-8th grade) was boring but it
> was bettter than working in the fields.
>
> /BAH
Yeah, my first grade teacher was upset I all ready knew how to read
the first day of class. I was not accepting of the nonsense pretending
to be teaching in elementary school. I did learn to just be quiet and
look studious, but it was difficult.
--
Jim
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| Re: Stopping the Internet of noise [message #348483 is a reply to message #348363] |
Sat, 15 July 2017 20:08 |
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Originally posted by: JimP.
On Fri, 14 Jul 2017 12:49:53 -0400, Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca>
wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Jul 2017, mausg@mail.com wrote:
>
>> On 2017-07-13, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> writes:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 13 Jul 2017, mausg@mail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > On 2017-07-12, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> high I happened to learn my IQ. By that imperfect measure I know I'm
>>> above average.
>>>
>>> Then I got admitted to Bronx Science HS, so I knew I was above average.
>>> But I learned a good life lesson while attending Bronx Science. All of
>>> a sudden I was struggling to reach average.
>>>
>>> Of course there are all kinds of smarts and Big Bang is trying to make
>>> that point. But the characters seem ridiculous to me, not even artistic
>>> license makes up for it.
>>>
>>> You seem to have got it but the mother comment flew right past me. I
>>> see Sheldon has a mother, but still don't get it.
>>>
>>> Not clear on the Pince Nez either.
>>>
>>
>> Sorry, I had been celebrating an Important thing (renewing my driving
>> licence).
>>
>> Pince-Nez used to be a part of the image of psychiatrists, and they as we
>> know, cure people with problems by blaming those problems on someone
>> someone else, usually their Mothers.
>>
>> Mensa, in my opinion, are a group of frauds that send you messages
>> saying something like "By our tests, you seem to be a very smart
>> person, so send us cash"
>>
> I think it's more about seling a card to people who want to be a card
> carrier. I don't think they've let the standards slip (though I gather
> when they lowered the membership from the top 1% to 2% there was some
> resistance), but the main thing does seem to be that some can say "I'm a
> Mensa member". Other than game night, or something like that, I'm not
> sure there's a real benefit.
>
> But a lot things are sold that way. Now there are ads for DNA testing, "I
> was surpised to find that 30% of me is native American", playing to the
> people who think that would be a good thing. Once you have a selective
> group, people want to be part of it.
>
> Michael
I sent off for the $99 test... it gave me info I didn't have. But I
have found that if you want exact info you need to take the $3,000 DNA
test. The Native American part of the trst doesn't always work as some
Nations refuse to participate.
--
Jim
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| Re: Stopping the Internet of noise [message #348484 is a reply to message #348364] |
Sat, 15 July 2017 20:10 |
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Originally posted by: JimP.
On Fri, 14 Jul 2017 12:55:44 -0400, Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca>
wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Jul 2017, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>
>> On 14 Jul 2017 08:08:38 GMT
>> mausg@mail.com wrote:
>>
>>> For many years I have rgarded Mensa as a ripoff, like Opus Dei, or the
>>> Orange Order.
>>
>> A college friend of mine had the best description of Mensa I've
>> ever heard "A bunch of brain proud idiots".
>>
> Nobody said you had to use your intelligence for something valuable.
>
> That's where I wonder about intelligence. I've seen people who seem to be
> intelligent make stupid mistakes (and I'm not talking about minor errors),
> so can they still be intelligent? I guess some of it depends on how one
> defines intelligence. But if someone can't see anything beyond what's in
> front of them, is it upbringing or intellegence that stops them from
> looking further?
>
> Michael
One guy I knew at university told me his employer didn't hire computer
science majors with GPAs about 3.5 because while they understood the
esoterica of computers and programming, they couldn't comunicate with
customers the software had been written for, and they mostly had a
problem figuring out problems that were unusual.
--
Jim
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| Re: Stopping the Internet of noise [message #348485 is a reply to message #348466] |
Sat, 15 July 2017 20:27 |
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Originally posted by: JimP.
On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 12:30:21 -0700 (PDT), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> On Friday, July 14, 2017 at 8:54:14 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> I figured out somewhere in middle school that most teachers are idiots. I
>> think that the thing that did it was that the teacher asserted that all
>> energy comes from carbon. I asked about nuclear energy, and after taking a
>> couple of days to mull it over she came back with "carbon-14", which told
>> me she was totally clueless on that topic. She's also the one who told us
>> that the correct answer to a test question about the principle on which a
>> jet engine operates is not anything do to with Newton's Laws, it is the
>> "principle of jet". Four years of engineering school, two years of
>> graduate study in aeronautical engineering, and ten years working as an
>> aerospace engineer later, I remained the only person I knew other than that
>> teacher who had ever heard of "the principle of jet".
>>
>> I had a few good teachers but they were the extreme rarities.
>
> I thought most of my public school _teachers_ were reasonably good.
>
> I didn't think as much of the administrators or school board personnel.
> A lot of the school board personnel were just bureaucrats, spitting
> out incomprehensible policy statements to justify their job. Heck
> back in the 1960s Bel Kaufman wrote about that in Up The Down Staircase.
>
>
> Teachers need two qualities--1) a mastery of the subject matter, and 2)
> an ability to impart the knowledge to students.
>
> Some teachers only have one or the other.
>
> Feynman was asked to serve on a textbook committee (he wrote about this
> in one of his books). He was shocked to find out how bad a science
> textbook was, and that his colleagues on the committee didn't even
> notice gross errors in fact.
I remember a mention of one on that committee who didn't want to send
corrections to the publisher, it might hurt their feelings. Urp.
--
Jim
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| Re: Stopping the Internet of noise [message #348486 is a reply to message #348467] |
Sat, 15 July 2017 20:29 |
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Originally posted by: JimP.
On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 12:33:53 -0700 (PDT), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> On Saturday, July 15, 2017 at 7:41:06 AM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> I'm over 60, I was in middle school (they called it "junior high" then) in
>> the '60s. I don't think there was a single PhD in the entire school.
>
> A lot of our public school teachers had master degrees, but I heard
> there was a program to get a master's that wasn't particularly
> demanding. Teachers got more pay if they had a master's.
>
> The newspapers did report a scandal of some college issuing a very
> weak PhD degree, and some principals and high school teachers did get
> their degree from it.
>
My high school, andm ost junior high teachers wrre good. But three of
the junior high ones at a school in Texas apparently had to have a
student to pick on every year. I had thick eyeglasses, left handed,
and came from the poor side of town. So they made fun of me at every
chance they had. My dad got transferred to another state, and my
grades went up two letters.
--
Jim
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| Re: Stopping the Internet of noise [message #348489 is a reply to message #348484] |
Sat, 15 July 2017 20:49 |
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Originally posted by: JimP.
On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 19:10:54 -0500, JimP. <solosam90@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Jul 2017 12:55:44 -0400, Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca>
> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 14 Jul 2017, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>
>>> On 14 Jul 2017 08:08:38 GMT
>>> mausg@mail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> For many years I have rgarded Mensa as a ripoff, like Opus Dei, or the
>>>> Orange Order.
>>>
>>> A college friend of mine had the best description of Mensa I've
>>> ever heard "A bunch of brain proud idiots".
>>>
>> Nobody said you had to use your intelligence for something valuable.
>>
>> That's where I wonder about intelligence. I've seen people who seem to be
>> intelligent make stupid mistakes (and I'm not talking about minor errors),
>> so can they still be intelligent? I guess some of it depends on how one
>> defines intelligence. But if someone can't see anything beyond what's in
>> front of them, is it upbringing or intellegence that stops them from
>> looking further?
>>
>> Michael
>
> One guy I knew at university told me his employer didn't hire computer
> science majors with GPAs about 3.5 because while they understood the
> esoterica of computers and programming, they couldn't comunicate with
> customers the software had been written for, and they mostly had a
> problem figuring out problems that were unusual.
Above 3.5, not about 3.5.
--
Jim
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| Re: Stopping the Internet of noise [message #348490 is a reply to message #348474] |
Sat, 15 July 2017 20:58 |
Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
> In article <oke2bg$dj9$1@dont-email.me>, dan1espen@gmail.com says...
>>
>> Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 7/14/2017 7:54 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>
>>>> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...]
>>>>
>>>> I figured out somewhere in middle school that most teachers are idiots. I
>>>> think that the thing that did it was that the teacher asserted that all
>>>> energy comes from carbon. I asked about nuclear energy, and after taking a
>>>> couple of days to mull it over she came back with "carbon-14", which told
>>>> me she was totally clueless on that topic. She's also the one who told us
>>>> that the correct answer to a test question about the principle on which a
>>>> jet engine operates is not anything do to with Newton's Laws, it is the
>>>> "principle of jet". Four years of engineering school, two years of
>>>> graduate study in aeronautical engineering, and ten years working as an
>>>> aerospace engineer later, I remained the only person I knew other than that
>>>> teacher who had ever heard of "the principle of jet".
>>>>
>>>
>>> "Pity the poor in bondage who have none to help them."
>>> -- John Brown, abolitionist minister
>>>
>>>> I had a few good teachers but they were the extreme rarities.
>>>
>>> Being a good teacher has a great deal to do with attitude.
>>
>> More so than knowledge in my opinion.
>> Never ran into a teacher that didn't know the subject matter.
>> Except for a geometry teacher that gave homework asking that we
>> draw triangles using the compass. One of the triangles had to be
>> 1x2x3.
>>
>> Of course it you try, the tool is imprecise and you will get a very
>> shallow triangle. I was the only one that pointed out that
>> there was no such triangle. Took about 15 minutes of explaining
>> and the teacher just never got it. She kept demonstrating how to do it.
>
> Was her demonstration successful?
Yes, she got a squatty little triangle.
As did all of the rest of the class.
I suppose I could have too, but gee, isn't it obvious.
I even drew a straight line on the board divided at 1 / 2
and explained that that same straight line was 3.
Didn't seem to mean anything to the teacher.
But teaching is hard enough. I don't think we need
math experts to teach JHS geometry.
Getting the class to shut up and listen is job 1.
This seemed pretty basic to me at the time but
the class didn't get it and thought I was wrong.
She called in another teacher. Can't remember
what the other teacher thought. I think I may
have convinced him.
--
Dan Espen
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