| Re: Programmers Who Use Spaces Paid More [message #347072 is a reply to message #347070] |
Fri, 23 June 2017 16:32   |
Anne & Lynn Wheel
Messages: 3161
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
> And with all that, you never did create a "bootable monitor".
>
> Not to downplay the difficultly of writing to the bare metal on S/360.
re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017g.html#20 Programmers Who Use Spaces Paid More
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017g.html#24 Programmers Who Use Spaces Paid More
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017g.html#26 Programmers Who Use Spaces Paid More
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017g.html#27 Programmers Who Use Spaces Paid More
the stand-alone version (assembled in 30minutes) booted with the BPS
loader an clean machines ... the OS/360 version (assembled in 60minutes
because of the os/360 DCB macro assemble time).
had console interface to indicate what it was suppose to do,
tope->printer/punch and/or card reader->tape.
BPS loader was self-loading text deck that you put in front of standard
TXT deck ... would load and pass control to the loaded application. I
eventually found a BPS application that generated purely self-loading
.... it processed TXT cards into simpler form that required less
processing for loading ... aka ESD and RLD records, etc.
The BPS application to generate a self-loading application was used for
the BPS loader application that turned it into a self-loading
application (which then could be used to load regular "TXT" decks). 360
boot process was that BPD loader process would also work from tape
.... with card desk image written to tape.
BPS loader was also used for CP/67 and VM/370 ... all the assembled
system decks were put behind the BPS loader (originally on bare machine
.... but also worked in virtual machine) and IPL'ed ... the intial load
sequence would then write the loaded image to disk and quit. The disk
IPL then would do the inverse of the disk write and then turn control
over to the system.
It wasn't as sophisticated as Lincoln Labs "LLMPS" which had a lot more
functions ... like tape->tape copying and bunch of other stuff something
like DEBE. "LLMPS" was made available on SHARE program library ... and
MTS "folklore" was that Univ. of Michigan used it as original core for
MTS.
--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
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| Re: Programmers Who Use Spaces Paid More [message #347086 is a reply to message #347072] |
Sat, 24 June 2017 07:21 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8402
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote:
> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>> And with all that, you never did create a "bootable monitor".
>>
>> Not to downplay the difficultly of writing to the bare metal on S/360.
>
> re:
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017g.html#20 Programmers Who Use Spaces Paid More
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017g.html#24 Programmers Who Use Spaces Paid More
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017g.html#26 Programmers Who Use Spaces Paid More
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017g.html#27 Programmers Who Use Spaces Paid More
>
> the stand-alone version (assembled in 30minutes) booted with the BPS
> loader an clean machines ... the OS/360 version (assembled in 60minutes
> because of the os/360 DCB macro assemble time).
>
> had console interface to indicate what it was suppose to do,
> tope->printer/punch and/or card reader->tape.
>
> BPS loader was self-loading text deck that you put in front of standard
> TXT deck ... would load and pass control to the loaded application. I
> eventually found a BPS application that generated purely self-loading
> ... it processed TXT cards into simpler form that required less
> processing for loading ... aka ESD and RLD records, etc.
>
> The BPS application to generate a self-loading application was used for
> the BPS loader application that turned it into a self-loading
> application (which then could be used to load regular "TXT" decks). 360
> boot process was that BPD loader process would also work from tape
> ... with card desk image written to tape.
>
> BPS loader was also used for CP/67 and VM/370 ... all the assembled
> system decks were put behind the BPS loader (originally on bare machine
> ... but also worked in virtual machine) and IPL'ed ... the intial load
> sequence would then write the loaded image to disk and quit. The disk
> IPL then would do the inverse of the disk write and then turn control
> over to the system.
>
> It wasn't as sophisticated as Lincoln Labs "LLMPS" which had a lot more
> functions ... like tape->tape copying and bunch of other stuff something
> like DEBE. "LLMPS" was made available on SHARE program library ... and
> MTS "folklore" was that Univ. of Michigan used it as original core for
> MTS.
>
I had fun playing with this when I updated a toy OS from Madnick and
Donovan (keyed in by hand from the listing in the book over many lunch
hours). I assembled it to get the text deck and wrote my own 3-card
loader, unknowingly duplicating something I could have downloaded from
somewhere. I assembled the loader and then either stripped out the machine
code or rekeyed it in ISPF (forget which now) to crete the bootable loader
deck. Then I "punched" the loader followed by the OS deck to my reader on
VM and IPLd it. It was a fun project.
--
Pete
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| Re: Programmers Who Use Spaces Paid More [message #347087 is a reply to message #347046] |
Sat, 24 June 2017 07:30 |
jmfbahciv
Messages: 6173
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Richard Thiebaud wrote:
> On 06/23/2017 07:34 AM, jmfbahciv wrote:
>> But the proposition shows how clueless some males can be. It's
>> hillarious.
>
> Or how clueless some females can be. Idiotic managers come in both sexes.
I don't think so in this [which you elided] case. There was nothing
in my posts which stated that females couldn't be idiotic; they can
but not in this example.
Another historic male idiocy is the myth that females can't stand
to see blood but we've talked about that in this newsgroup.
/BAH
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| Re: Programmers Who Use Spaces Paid More [message #347088 is a reply to message #347059] |
Sat, 24 June 2017 07:30 |
jmfbahciv
Messages: 6173
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
>> How long did it take you to have a bootable monitor?
>
> re:
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017g.html#20 Programmers Who Use Spaces Paid
More
>
> i just had taken 2hr introduction to fortran class (but I found it so
> fascinating, I was making up my own programs) ... so it took me a
> couple weeks reading assembler manual and figuring out what machine
> language was about and then a couple weeks to start having some runnable
> code. the datacenter shutdown at 8am saturday until 8am monday ... so i
> could have the 360/30 all to myself for 48hrs straight over weekends
> that summer. by the end of the summer it was little over 2000 cards and
> I could do concurrent card->tape and tape->printer/punch.
I'm still amazed that the center's management let you play with the machine
when you didn't know what you didn't know. It took me months and a Sunday
job for mine not to think they needed to hover (people in this state didn't,
and still don't, do Sunday work). My first Sunday had hovering but the
hoverer decided he didn't like babysitting on Sunday.
>
> it included assembler option to either assemble for stand-alone
> operation or macros that ran under os/360. The stand-alone version took
> about 30 mins elapsed time to assemble ... however the os/360 version
> took an hour elapsed time to assemble ... 5-6mins for each DCB macro.
>
> because it was taking so long to re-assemble ... i started doing TXT
> card patching. I would fan the assembler output "TXT" deck to find the
> right card, and then run card thru 026 keypunch "duplication" until the
> right location and multi-punch hex fix into dup card.
<grin> Boredom was an incentive in our shop, too.
>
> past posts mentioning format of 12-2-9 (x'02') TXT card:
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#60 Text (was: Review of Steve
McConnell's AFTER THE GOLD RUSH)
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004h.html#17 Google loves "e"
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007q.html#69 IBM System/3 & 3277-1
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007q.html#70 IBM System/3 & 3277-1
>
How did you learn about directing hardware devices? Was there
technical documentation easily available at the center? I'm assuming
that the existing device software didn't use all the opcodes, bits,
flags, etc.
/BAH
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| Re: Programmers Who Use Spaces Paid More [message #347092 is a reply to message #347088] |
Sat, 24 June 2017 11:54 |
Anne & Lynn Wheel
Messages: 3161
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
> How did you learn about directing hardware devices? Was there
> technical documentation easily available at the center? I'm assuming
> that the existing device software didn't use all the opcodes, bits,
> flags, etc.
starting with assembler manual and principles of operation and green
card ... and lots of dedicated time, 48hrs straight ... the whole
machine room all to myself from 8am sat. until 8am monday.
principles of operation gave all the instructions and description
of how they worked as well as general i/o operations.
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/360/princOps/
also functional characteristics
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/360/funcChar/
partial rendition of green card
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/gcard.html
reader/punch
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/gcard.html#23
tape
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/gcard.html#25
pringer
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/gcard.html#24
one of the important things I learned somewhat trial and error was first
thing to do when I came in on saturday morning was clean all the tape
drives and take the 2540 reader/punch apart and clean it. also if the
1403 box of paper was getting low, stage a new box of paper. less
frequent was replacing ribbon on 1403 printer.
also, sometimes when I came in sat. morning, 3rd shift will have
finished early and had completely powered everything off and the room
was completely dark. I would have to hit the processor front panel power
on. Sometimes the power sequence wouldn't complete. I would then have to
power off, go around to each of the controllers, put them in "CE mode",
power them on individually, and go back to the processor front panel and
power it on and then go back and switch each of the controllers back to
normal mode.
there was a lot more to running a machine room that just the software
programming part ... had to learn all this other stuff somewhat trial
and error.
duplicating cards on 026 keypunch & multi-punching hex codes was also
somewhat trial & error.
--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
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| Re: Programmers Who Use Spaces Paid More [message #347093 is a reply to message #347086] |
Sat, 24 June 2017 12:32 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8402
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote:
>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>>> And with all that, you never did create a "bootable monitor".
>>>
>>> Not to downplay the difficultly of writing to the bare metal on S/360.
>>
>> re:
>> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017g.html#20 Programmers Who Use Spaces Paid More
>> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017g.html#24 Programmers Who Use Spaces Paid More
>> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017g.html#26 Programmers Who Use Spaces Paid More
>> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017g.html#27 Programmers Who Use Spaces Paid More
>>
>> the stand-alone version (assembled in 30minutes) booted with the BPS
>> loader an clean machines ... the OS/360 version (assembled in 60minutes
>> because of the os/360 DCB macro assemble time).
>>
>> had console interface to indicate what it was suppose to do,
>> tope->printer/punch and/or card reader->tape.
>>
>> BPS loader was self-loading text deck that you put in front of standard
>> TXT deck ... would load and pass control to the loaded application. I
>> eventually found a BPS application that generated purely self-loading
>> ... it processed TXT cards into simpler form that required less
>> processing for loading ... aka ESD and RLD records, etc.
>>
>> The BPS application to generate a self-loading application was used for
>> the BPS loader application that turned it into a self-loading
>> application (which then could be used to load regular "TXT" decks). 360
>> boot process was that BPD loader process would also work from tape
>> ... with card desk image written to tape.
>>
>> BPS loader was also used for CP/67 and VM/370 ... all the assembled
>> system decks were put behind the BPS loader (originally on bare machine
>> ... but also worked in virtual machine) and IPL'ed ... the intial load
>> sequence would then write the loaded image to disk and quit. The disk
>> IPL then would do the inverse of the disk write and then turn control
>> over to the system.
>>
>> It wasn't as sophisticated as Lincoln Labs "LLMPS" which had a lot more
>> functions ... like tape->tape copying and bunch of other stuff something
>> like DEBE. "LLMPS" was made available on SHARE program library ... and
>> MTS "folklore" was that Univ. of Michigan used it as original core for
>> MTS.
>>
>
> I had fun playing with this when I updated a toy OS from Madnick and
> Donovan (keyed in by hand from the listing in the book over many lunch
> hours). I assembled it to get the text deck and wrote my own 3-card
> loader, unknowingly duplicating something I could have downloaded from
> somewhere. I assembled the loader and then either stripped out the machine
> code or rekeyed it in ISPF (forget which now) to crete the bootable loader
> deck. Then I "punched" the loader followed by the OS deck to my reader on
> VM and IPLd it. It was a fun project.
>
s/ISPF/XEDIT/
--
Pete
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| Y2K38 (was: Programmers Who Use Spaces Paid More) [message #347095 is a reply to message #347061] |
Sat, 24 June 2017 13:35 |
Andreas Kohlbach
Messages: 1456
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Fri, 23 Jun 2017 18:20:42 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>
> On Fri, 23 Jun 2017 12:50:03 -0400
> Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>
>> On 22 Jun 2017 21:18:50 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:
>>>
>>>> Then we're back in 1901? Hmm, could time_t be employed to build the
>>>> first working time machine? ;-)
>>>
>>> Only back to 1970, though.
>>
>> Should be 1901 being a signed 32Bit integer.
>
> Nope because it started counting from 1/1/1970.
Are you doubting the all mighty Wikipedia? ;-)
An unsigned 32Bit integer would have 4,294,967,295 and a signed from
-2,147,483,648 to 2,147,483,647 (two's complement). Add 1 to
2,147,483,647 and you get -2,147,483,648. That is 2,147,483,648 seconds
before 1/1/1970, falling into 1901. That's roughly 69 years before
1970. While 2038 is roughly 69 years after 1970.
But many modern 32Bit operating systems should "catch" this.
| ~$ date -d 1/1/2038
| Fri Jan 1 00:00:00 EST 2038
| ~$ date -d 1/1/2039
| date: invalid date ‘1/1/2039’
| ~$ date -d 1/1/1902
| Wed Jan 1 00:00:00 EST 1902
| ~$ date -d 1/1/1901
| date: invalid date ‘1/1/1901’
My 32Bit Linux does.
--
Andreas
You know you are a redneck if
you think a turtleneck is a key ingredient in soup.
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| Re: Programmers Who Use Spaces Paid More [message #347114 is a reply to message #347094] |
Sun, 25 June 2017 09:41 |
jmfbahciv
Messages: 6173
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>> I had fun playing with this when I updated a toy OS from Madnick and
>> Donovan (keyed in by hand from the listing in the book over many lunch
>> hours). I assembled it to get the text deck and wrote my own 3-card
>> loader, unknowingly duplicating something I could have downloaded from
>> somewhere. I assembled the loader and then either stripped out the
>> machine code or rekeyed it in ISPF (forget which now) to crete the
>> bootable loader deck. Then I "punched" the loader followed by the OS
>> deck to my reader on VM and IPLd it. It was a fun project.
>
> aka XEDIT ... not ISPF
>
> trivia: mid-60s, Madnick did the rewrite of ctss runoff to CMS for
> script .... i.e. it was the "dot" documenting formating.
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#545tech
>
> then in 1969, GML was invented at the science center ... and tag
> documenting formating support was added to CMS script
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#sgml
>
> I've mentioned before about parts of IBM having trouble adapting
> to software charging after the 23june1969 unbundling announcement
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#unbundle
>
> JES2 ran into this with NJI networking Monthly price charged times
> number of forecasts had to cover development costs plus ongoing
> maintenance ... there was no price*forecast that satisfied the criteria
> (even tho the original source from HASP had "TUCC" in cols 68-71).
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#hasp
>
> By comparison VM370 RSCS/VNET easily met the criteria with a $30/month
> ... however this was in the period when POK was convincing corporate
> hdqtrs to kill VM370 product (and transfer all the people to work on
> MVS/XA, or otherwise MVS/XA wouldn't ship on time). Eventually the JES2
> group cut a deal with VM370 to announce a combined JES2+VNET product at
> $600/month (the combined NJI+VNET forecast times $600/month covered the
> NJI costs).
>
> Later they finagled the rules so the products just had to be in the same
> organization. The VM370 performance products earned as much as ISPF
> ... but ISPF had profit issues with something like 200 people. They
> combined ISPF and VM370 performance products in the same organization
> and cut the VM370 performance products to three people ... so the VM370
> performance products revenue cut underwrite the ISPF costs.
>
> other triva: there were several internal fullscreen editors that were
> much more mature and had more function than the brand new XEDIT ... but
> Endicott had some NIH. One of the most advanced was RED ... and I
> tried to convince Endicott that it should release RED than XEDIT.
>
> Eventually Endicott responded that it was the RED author's fault that
> RED was so much more advanced than XEDIT ... and it should be the RED
> author's responsibility to bring XEDIT up to level compareable to RED.
I never knew how to deal with that kind of broken thinking.
<snip ref-list>
/BAH
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| Re: Programmers Who Use Spaces Paid More [message #347115 is a reply to message #347092] |
Sun, 25 June 2017 09:41 |
jmfbahciv
Messages: 6173
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
>> How did you learn about directing hardware devices? Was there
>> technical documentation easily available at the center? I'm assuming
>> that the existing device software didn't use all the opcodes, bits,
>> flags, etc.
>
> starting with assembler manual and principles of operation and green
> card ... and lots of dedicated time, 48hrs straight ... the whole
> machine room all to myself from 8am sat. until 8am monday.
>
> principles of operation gave all the instructions and description
> of how they worked as well as general i/o operations.
> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/360/princOps/
> also functional characteristics
> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/360/funcChar/
>
> partial rendition of green card
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/gcard.html
> reader/punch
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/gcard.html#23
> tape
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/gcard.html#25
> pringer
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/gcard.html#24
>
> one of the important things I learned somewhat trial and error was first
> thing to do when I came in on saturday morning was clean all the tape
> drives and take the 2540 reader/punch apart and clean it. also if the
> 1403 box of paper was getting low, stage a new box of paper. less
> frequent was replacing ribbon on 1403 printer.
Yea, starting with a cleaned room prevents thinking/learning interruptions.
>
> also, sometimes when I came in sat. morning, 3rd shift will have
> finished early and had completely powered everything off and the room
> was completely dark. I would have to hit the processor front panel power
> on. Sometimes the power sequence wouldn't complete. I would then have to
> power off, go around to each of the controllers, put them in "CE mode",
> power them on individually, and go back to the processor front panel and
> power it on and then go back and switch each of the controllers back to
> normal mode.
Didn't that repeated powering off break hardware?
>
> there was a lot more to running a machine room that just the software
> programming part ... had to learn all this other stuff somewhat trial
> and error.
>
> duplicating cards on 026 keypunch & multi-punching hex codes was also
> somewhat trial & error.
I had a 15 minute instruction about how to use the keypunches. I
figured out how to program the drum card from the instructions
pasted to the inside of the drum card area door.
I used the 407 to sanity check my punching.
/BAH
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| Re: Programmers Who Use Spaces Paid More [message #347116 is a reply to message #346947] |
Sun, 25 June 2017 10:11 |
Bernd Felsche
Messages: 123
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2017-06-21, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 2017-06-21, Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>>>> On 6/21/2017 10:49 AM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>> > The only alternative is to not use tabs at all. In my copious free time
>>>> > I plan to start re-working my code that way.
>>>> In Linux and BSD Unix, there are "expand" and "unexpand" utilities.
>>>> "expand" inputs a file that may have tabs, and outputs a file with tabs
>>>> replaced by blanks that retain indentation. A parameter lets you choose
>>>> how many spaces a tab may represent. If the tab size in a file is 8,
>>>> the tab character moves to the next character that is a multiple of 8...
>>>> *not* always 8 characters. "expand* can deal with that.
>>> But that's the easy part. Then I have to set up vim appropriately
>>> and remember to keep those setting active. A slightly harder part
>>> is changing my Windows editing procedures from Notepad to vim.
>>> The hardest part of all is reprogramming my fingers appropriately.
>>> So I think I'll hold off until I've put out the current fires...
>>
>> By 2030 or so then?
> Yup. Just enough time to relax before time_t wraps around. :-)
Put this sort of code comment in the first few lines of your file.
/* vim: ts=2:sw=2:et:ai
*/
Saves time. And space.
--
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Somewhere in Western Australia
\ / ASCII ribbon campaign | For every complex problem there is an
X against HTML mail | answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.
/ \ and postings | --HL Mencken
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| Re: Programmers Who Use Spaces Paid More [message #347194 is a reply to message #347062] |
Tue, 27 June 2017 10:09 |
scott
Messages: 4272
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> writes:
> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
>> By 2030, 32-bit systems will be relegated to the dustbin of history :-)
>>
>> (64-bit time_t has a ways to go before it overflows).
>
> 360 timer was 32bit and lowest bit was 13+ microseconds although some
> 360s only 3+ some millisecond bit. Part of the issue was that timer was
> in storage and required memory update. When we were doing clone
> controller hung off multiplexor channel ... one of the first bugs was
> the controller "held" the memory bus for too longer contiguous period
> .... preventing the 360/67 from updating the timer ... and the machine
> red lights.
The Burroughs medium systems mainframes had a "time of day" timer. This
was a 20-digit timer:
Information Digits
Year 00 - 03
Month 04 - 05
Day 06 - 07
Reserved 08
Microseconds 09 - 19
The microseconds field was based at midnight.
A MCP routine would be scheduled to run at midnight
to update the year/month/day fields and zero the microseconds
field (which was automatically incremented by the hardware).
The timer was read with the RDT instruction and set with the
STT instruction. The RDT instruction was available to unprivileged
code.
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| Re: Programmers Who Use Spaces Paid More [message #347292 is a reply to message #346998] |
Wed, 28 June 2017 15:46 |
Harry Vaderchi
Messages: 729
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Thu, 22 Jun 2017 20:21:33 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
[]
> Back in the messy-dos days I wrote a TSR editor that used the same
> tricks as X-Ray to run in the background. To make life simple I displayed
> tabs as a capital I in inverse video - I *really* didn't want to deal with
> expanding tabs for display and working out what to do when some oik (me)
> plopped a letter in the middle of the tab gap. I wanted a small TSR editor
> that could run in the background and hijack part of the screen from a
> running program (text mode of course).
>
Want!
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug
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| Re: Programmers Who Use Spaces Paid More [message #347293 is a reply to message #346950] |
Wed, 28 June 2017 15:55 |
Harry Vaderchi
Messages: 729
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Thu, 22 Jun 2017 00:50:14 +0100, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>
>> On 2017-06-21, Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 6/21/2017 10:49 AM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>
>>>> {snip...} {snip...} {snip...}
>>>>
>>>> The only alternative is to not use tabs at all. In my copious free time
>>>> I plan to start re-working my code that way.
>>>
>>> In Linux and BSD Unix, there are "expand" and "unexpand" utilities.
>>> "expand" inputs a file that may have tabs, and outputs a file with tabs
>>> replaced by blanks that retain indentation. A parameter lets you choose
>>> how many spaces a tab may represent. If the tab size in a file is 8,
>>> the tab character moves to the next character that is a multiple of 8...
>>> *not* always 8 characters. "expand* can deal with that.
>>>
>>> "unexpand" will replace space with tabs as much as possible.
>>
>> I remember them as detab and entab respectively, but those must be
>> old names - my man pages cover expand and unexpand, not detab and entab.
>>
>> But that's the easy part. Then I have to set up vim appropriately
>> and remember to keep those setting active. A slightly harder part
>> is changing my Windows editing procedures from Notepad to vim.
>> The hardest part of all is reprogramming my fingers appropriately.
>> So I think I'll hold off until I've put out the current fires...
>
> Oddly enough you don't consider Notepad one of those fires.
>
> There is something called Notepad++ but I can't see the reason to
> go there. But then I'm not a Notepad victim.
>
I use Notepad2; many other editors are available.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug
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| Re: Programmers Who Use Spaces Paid More [message #347313 is a reply to message #347292] |
Wed, 28 June 2017 18:01 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4946
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Wed, 28 Jun 2017 20:46:38 +0100
"Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Jun 2017 20:21:33 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
> <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>
> []
>> Back in the messy-dos days I wrote a TSR editor that used the
>> same tricks as X-Ray to run in the background. To make life simple I
>> displayed tabs as a capital I in inverse video - I *really* didn't want
>> to deal with expanding tabs for display and working out what to do when
>> some oik (me) plopped a letter in the middle of the tab gap. I wanted a
>> small TSR editor that could run in the background and hijack part of
>> the screen from a running program (text mode of course).
>>
> Want!
Lost to the mists of time.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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| Re: Programmers Who Use Spaces Paid More [message #347315 is a reply to message #347313] |
Wed, 28 June 2017 19:13 |
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Originally posted by: Bob Eager
On Wed, 28 Jun 2017 23:01:05 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Jun 2017 20:46:38 +0100 "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1>
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 22 Jun 2017 20:21:33 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
>> <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>
>> []
>>> Back in the messy-dos days I wrote a TSR editor that used the
>>> same tricks as X-Ray to run in the background. To make life simple I
>>> displayed tabs as a capital I in inverse video - I *really* didn't
>>> want to deal with expanding tabs for display and working out what to
>>> do when some oik (me) plopped a letter in the middle of the tab gap.
>>> I wanted a small TSR editor that could run in the background and
>>> hijack part of the screen from a running program (text mode of
>>> course).
>>>
>> Want!
>
> Lost to the mists of time.
Wasn't the well known SideKick quite similar?
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
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| Re: Programmers Who Use Spaces Paid More [message #347324 is a reply to message #347315] |
Thu, 29 June 2017 02:37 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4946
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 28 Jun 2017 23:13:25 GMT
Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Jun 2017 23:01:05 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 28 Jun 2017 20:46:38 +0100 "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 22 Jun 2017 20:21:33 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
>>> <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> []
>>>> Back in the messy-dos days I wrote a TSR editor that used the
>>>> same tricks as X-Ray to run in the background. To make life simple I
>>>> displayed tabs as a capital I in inverse video - I *really* didn't
>>>> want to deal with expanding tabs for display and working out what to
>>>> do when some oik (me) plopped a letter in the middle of the tab gap.
>>>> I wanted a small TSR editor that could run in the background and
>>>> hijack part of the screen from a running program (text mode of
>>>> course).
>>>>
>>> Want!
>>
>> Lost to the mists of time.
>
> Wasn't the well known SideKick quite similar?
There was one big difference, when you popped up SideKick
everything else stopped, when you popped up my editor it all kept running.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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| Re: Programmers Who Use Spaces Paid More [message #347325 is a reply to message #346803] |
Thu, 29 June 2017 03:29 |
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Originally posted by: Bob Eager
On Wed, 28 Jun 2017 19:49:43 -0500, Dave Garland wrote:
> On 6/28/2017 6:13 PM, Bob Eager wrote:
>> On Wed, 28 Jun 2017 23:01:05 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 28 Jun 2017 20:46:38 +0100 "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 22 Jun 2017 20:21:33 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
>>>> <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> []
>>>> > Back in the messy-dos days I wrote a TSR editor that used the
>>>> > same tricks as X-Ray to run in the background. To make life simple I
>>>> > displayed tabs as a capital I in inverse video - I *really* didn't
>>>> > want to deal with expanding tabs for display and working out what to
>>>> > do when some oik (me) plopped a letter in the middle of the tab gap.
>>>> > I wanted a small TSR editor that could run in the background and
>>>> > hijack part of the screen from a running program (text mode of
>>>> > course).
>>>> >
>>>> Want!
>>>
>>> Lost to the mists of time.
>>
>> Wasn't the well known SideKick quite similar?
>>
> I expect the TSR principles were similar, but SideKick was a
> general-purpose utility. It provided a calendar, text editor,
> calculator, ASCII chart, address book, and phone dialer. It didn't do
> that particular thing with tabs, or use part of the displayed screen as
> input. (Unless maybe it let you copy & paste from the screen, I can't
> remember. I've probably got the manual around somewhere, but gawd knows
> where.)
Yes, I know it did more. But it did include the text editor part, and the
TSR principles were the same. (I wrote a TSR for Kermit, to make Num Lock
work as Gold)
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
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| Re: Programmers Who Use Spaces Paid More [message #347339 is a reply to message #347313] |
Thu, 29 June 2017 12:31 |
Michael Black
Messages: 2799
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Wed, 28 Jun 2017, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Jun 2017 20:46:38 +0100
> "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 22 Jun 2017 20:21:33 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
>> <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>
>> []
>>> Back in the messy-dos days I wrote a TSR editor that used the
>>> same tricks as X-Ray to run in the background. To make life simple I
>>> displayed tabs as a capital I in inverse video - I *really* didn't want
>>> to deal with expanding tabs for display and working out what to do when
>>> some oik (me) plopped a letter in the middle of the tab gap. I wanted a
>>> small TSR editor that could run in the background and hijack part of
>>> the screen from a running program (text mode of course).
>>>
>> Want!
>
> Lost to the mists of time.
>
It's an adventure game?
Michael
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| Re: Programmers Who Use Spaces Paid More [message #347344 is a reply to message #347339] |
Thu, 29 June 2017 13:36 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4946
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Thu, 29 Jun 2017 12:31:08 -0400
Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Jun 2017, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 28 Jun 2017 20:46:38 +0100
>> "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 22 Jun 2017 20:21:33 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
>>> <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> []
>>>> Back in the messy-dos days I wrote a TSR editor that used the
>>>> same tricks as X-Ray to run in the background. To make life simple I
>>>> displayed tabs as a capital I in inverse video - I *really* didn't
>>>> want to deal with expanding tabs for display and working out what to
>>>> do when some oik (me) plopped a letter in the middle of the tab gap.
>>>> I wanted a small TSR editor that could run in the background and
>>>> hijack part of the screen from a running program (text mode of
>>>> course).
>>>>
>>> Want!
>>
>> Lost to the mists of time.
>>
> It's an adventure game?
Getting it working certainly was :)
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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