| Jason Scott Puts Call Out for Apple ][ Software Collections [message #339973] |
Wed, 22 March 2017 01:26  |
|
|
Originally posted by: europlus
From my blog
< http://apple2.europlus.zone/community/jason-scott-puts-call- out-for-apple-ii-software-collections/>:
Are you, or someone you know, sitting on a horde of unpreserved Apple ][
software?
Jason Scott has put out the call for such collections which might still be
“in the wild”.
In his capacity as Software Collections Curator at the Internet Archive,
Jason has been instrumental in garnering preserved titles for that site and
making them playable, in-browser(!).
The summary in Jason’s post says:
"Conditions are very, very good right now for easy, top-quality, final
ingestion of original commercial Apple II Software and if you know people
sitting on a pile of it or even if you have a small handful of boxes,
please get in touch with me to arrange the disks to be imaged."
I don’t really need to add anything to what Jason has already said in that
summary, or in the detail Jason adds in his post – if you have (or know of)
such a collection, reach out to Jason to find out how you might be able to
preserve it.
Maybe we can get some disk preservation done at WOzFest PR#6 – with newer
versions of i’m fEDD up and Passport available (and other products in the
pipeline) it might be a good time to redouble our Apple ][ preservation
efforts!
Your only other job is to spread the word!
--
europlus
--
http://apple2.europlus.zone
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jason Scott Puts Call Out for Apple ][ Software Collections [message #339987 is a reply to message #339973] |
Wed, 22 March 2017 09:33  |
|
|
Originally posted by: Ralph Glatt
On Wednesday, March 22, 2017 at 1:26:29 AM UTC-4, europlus wrote:
> From my blog
> < http://apple2.europlus.zone/community/jason-scott-puts-call- out-for-apple-ii-software-collections/>:
>
> Are you, or someone you know, sitting on a horde of unpreserved Apple ][
> software?
>
> Jason Scott has put out the call for such collections which might still be
> “in the wild”.
>
> In his capacity as Software Collections Curator at the Internet Archive,
> Jason has been instrumental in garnering preserved titles for that site and
> making them playable, in-browser(!).
>
> The summary in Jason’s post says:
> "Conditions are very, very good right now for easy, top-quality, final
> ingestion of original commercial Apple II Software and if you know people
> sitting on a pile of it or even if you have a small handful of boxes,
> please get in touch with me to arrange the disks to be imaged."
>
> I don’t really need to add anything to what Jason has already said in that
> summary, or in the detail Jason adds in his post – if you have (or know of)
> such a collection, reach out to Jason to find out how you might be able to
> preserve it.
>
> Maybe we can get some disk preservation done at WOzFest PR#6 – with newer
> versions of i’m fEDD up and Passport available (and other products in the
> pipeline) it might be a good time to redouble our Apple ][ preservation
> efforts!
>
> Your only other job is to spread the word!
>
> --
> europlus
> --
> http://apple2.europlus.zone
Just a little too late - my brother sold off my dream Apple// setup behind my back. (It was stored at my Mom's house, and I was living elsewhere.) I had an Apple //c+ with expanded memory, color composite monitor, 40 MB hard drive, Imagewriter //, mouse, and GEOS software. I suspect someone got it for a steal, because my brother thought that all Apple//'s are junk. It almost makes me cry to think about it, especially the hard drive.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jason Scott Puts Call Out for Apple ][ Software Collections [message #339994 is a reply to message #339973] |
Wed, 22 March 2017 11:52 |
D Finnigan
Messages: 1154
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
europlus wrote:
>
> Jason Scott has put out the call for such collections which might still be
> “in the wild”.
>
> In his capacity as Software Collections Curator at the Internet Archive,
> Jason has been instrumental in garnering preserved titles for that site
> and
> making them playable, in-browser(!).
Jason Scott likes to think that he's the center of the Universe and everyone
revolves around him and that nothing existed before him.
People like the administrator of Asimov FTP have done far more and for far
longer (about 2 decades now, IIRC) and his "software collection" wouldn't
exist without Asimov.
(Nor would mine at Mac GUI Vault, for that matter)
--
]DF$
The Marina IP stack for Apple II--
http://marina.a2hq.com/
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jason Scott Puts Call Out for Apple ][ Software Collections [message #339995 is a reply to message #339994] |
Wed, 22 March 2017 12:19 |
zellyn
Messages: 173
Registered: April 2013
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Wednesday, March 22, 2017 at 11:54:59 AM UTC-4, D Finnigan wrote:
> Jason Scott likes to think that he's the center of the Universe and everyone
> revolves around him and that nothing existed before him.
This seems uncharacteristically mean-spirited for this group. Many of us think preservation is important. In fact, reading Jason's call to action, he gives the credit to other people.
Zellyn
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jason Scott Puts Call Out for Apple ][ Software Collections [message #340012 is a reply to message #339994] |
Wed, 22 March 2017 13:56 |
Steve Nickolas
Messages: 2036
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Wed, 22 Mar 2017, D Finnigan wrote:
> Jason Scott likes to think that he's the center of the Universe and
> everyone revolves around him and that nothing existed before him.
He has been involved in some important projects, but I think the vast
majority of the important work happens *despite* him.
> People like the administrator of Asimov FTP have done far more and for far
> longer (about 2 decades now, IIRC) and his "software collection" wouldn't
> exist without Asimov.
I was using Asimov as early as the late 1990s.
It might have a lot of *crap*, but that's because if you collect
everything, you're going to run into Sturgeon's Law.
The ones most currently responsible for preservation in the Apple ][
community are 4am, qkumba and LoGo. Jason Scott is, for the most part,
just a visible face.
-uso.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jason Scott Puts Call Out for Apple ][ Software Collections [message #340044 is a reply to message #339973] |
Wed, 22 March 2017 21:04 |
|
|
Originally posted by: James Davis
On Tuesday, March 21, 2017 at 10:26:29 PM UTC-7, europlus wrote:
>
> Are you, or someone you know, sitting on a horde of unpreserved Apple ][
> software?
YES! I AM!! And, I need to archive all I have for Humanity!!!
Is there anyone in the East S.F. Bay Area who can help me get some kind of Apple Disk Transfer going?
I still have everything "Apple II" I ever bought, except my original Apple II Plus. I still have two enhanced Apple IIe computers, my original and the one I bought incase I ever needed spare parts (never have). But, I have not used them in over 20 years. So, I have pretty much forgotten how.
Lately, I have been scanning "Apple II" related printed materials and uploading them to Asimov. I only discovered the existence of the Apple II internet, Asimov FTP, Apple II emulators, disk images, and CiderPress, last year.. I would like to do the same with the hundreds of floppies I have, and my Sider. But all my slots are filled. I have no place for an SSC, except for in the spare IIe.
I figured out how to make the 16-pin game port into a 9-pin RS-232 serial port, electrically, where the Apple II is either a DTE (presented as another computer {same as the IBM 9-pin serial port}) or a DCE (presented like a MoDem), but it needs some kind of electronic buffering and driver software on the Apple II end. Is anyone interested in helping to develop this idea? It might also work with an RS-232 to USB adapter.
Does anybody have any information (Tech Manuals) about the "Advanced Logic Systems" "Advanced Serial Interface" Rev.1? Someone (Jim {last name forgotten}) gave me one a long time ago. It might substitute for an SSC.
Sincerely,
James Davis, Beagle Buddy #227
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jason Scott Puts Call Out for Apple ][ Software Collections [message #340045 is a reply to message #340011] |
Wed, 22 March 2017 21:18 |
|
|
Originally posted by: James Davis
Hi MarkO,
On Wednesday, March 22, 2017 at 9:54:24 AM UTC-7, Mark D. Overholser wrote:
>
> We need a Campaign Slogan like,
>
> "Now is the Time, to Save the Future...."
"Now is the Time, to Save the Future, by Preserving the Past!"
Or, is that too obvious?
James Davis
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jason Scott Puts Call Out for Apple ][ Software Collections [message #340048 is a reply to message #339994] |
Wed, 22 March 2017 23:14 |
Paul Guertin
Messages: 6
Registered: August 2003
Karma: 0
|
Junior Member |
|
|
On Wed, 22 Mar 2017 15:52:02 -0000 (UTC), D Finnigan <dog_cow@macgui.com> wrote:
> People like the administrator of Asimov FTP have done far more and for far
> longer (about 2 decades now, IIRC) and his "software collection" wouldn't
> exist without Asimov.
Jason's project (asking people to mail him original disks, having
4AM crack the protected ones, and then putting the images online)
is great! The Asimov FTP site is great! Your Vault is great! It's
not a zero sum game. All such archiving efforts are worth supporting.
Paul Guertin
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jason Scott Puts Call Out for Apple ][ Software Collections [message #340062 is a reply to message #340044] |
Thu, 23 March 2017 10:45 |
|
|
Originally posted by: John Brooks
On Wednesday, March 22, 2017 at 6:04:41 PM UTC-7, James Davis wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 21, 2017 at 10:26:29 PM UTC-7, europlus wrote:
>>
>> Are you, or someone you know, sitting on a horde of unpreserved Apple ][
>> software?
>
> YES! I AM!! And, I need to archive all I have for Humanity!!!
>
> Is there anyone in the East S.F. Bay Area who can help me get some kind of Apple Disk Transfer going?
>
> I still have everything "Apple II" I ever bought, except my original Apple II Plus. I still have two enhanced Apple IIe computers, my original and the one I bought incase I ever needed spare parts (never have). But, I have not used them in over 20 years. So, I have pretty much forgotten how.
>
> Lately, I have been scanning "Apple II" related printed materials and uploading them to Asimov. I only discovered the existence of the Apple II internet, Asimov FTP, Apple II emulators, disk images, and CiderPress, last year. I would like to do the same with the hundreds of floppies I have, and my Sider. But all my slots are filled. I have no place for an SSC, except for in the spare IIe.
>
> I figured out how to make the 16-pin game port into a 9-pin RS-232 serial port, electrically, where the Apple II is either a DTE (presented as another computer {same as the IBM 9-pin serial port}) or a DCE (presented like a MoDem), but it needs some kind of electronic buffering and driver software on the Apple II end. Is anyone interested in helping to develop this idea? It might also work with an RS-232 to USB adapter.
>
> Does anybody have any information (Tech Manuals) about the "Advanced Logic Systems" "Advanced Serial Interface" Rev.1? Someone (Jim {last name forgotten}) gave me one a long time ago. It might substitute for an SSC.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> James Davis, Beagle Buddy #227
Hi James. I've done a lot of ADT transfers and can help. I'm in the south bay and will PM my contact info.
-JB
@JBrooksBSI
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jason Scott Puts Call Out for Apple ][ Software Collections [message #340068 is a reply to message #340028] |
Thu, 23 March 2017 12:11 |
qkumba
Messages: 1584
Registered: March 2013
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
> I think that by now the future has pretty much been saved.
Oh, but that's absolutely untrue. As we can see from 4am's collection, the number of "first-time preservations" continues to grow.
> What we really need is a really fast computer to sort through all the redundant junk that got saved with it.
Yes, and as Jason notes, the Internet Archive is working on exactly that.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jason Scott Puts Call Out for Apple ][ Software Collections [message #340069 is a reply to message #340044] |
Thu, 23 March 2017 12:30 |
David Schmidt
Messages: 993
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On 3/22/2017 9:04 PM, James Davis wrote:
> I figured out how to make the 16-pin game port into a 9-pin RS-232
> serial port, electrically, where the Apple II is either a DTE
> (presented as another computer {same as the IBM 9-pin serial port})
> or a DCE (presented like a MoDem), but it needs some kind of
> electronic buffering and driver software on the Apple II end. Is
> anyone interested in helping to develop this idea? It might also
> work with an RS-232 to USB adapter.
You might be interested in reading about Michael Mahon's NadaNet, a
network interface and protocol that runs through the game port:
http://michaeljmahon.com/NadaNet.html
> Does anybody have any information (Tech Manuals) about the "Advanced
> Logic Systems" "Advanced Serial Interface" Rev.1? Someone (Jim {last
> name forgotten}) gave me one a long time ago. It might substitute
> for an SSC.
I've not seen one myself. ADTPro (like ADT before it) relies on the
hardware interface to talk to the card, which is a stricter set of
criteria than the firmware interface is. Cards that advertised
themselves as "SSC compatible" generally meant at the firmware level,
which doesn't help in the case of disk transfers. It's easy enough to
tweak, though, if you do come across the technical information for your
card.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jason Scott Puts Call Out for Apple ][ Software Collections [message #340074 is a reply to message #340044] |
Thu, 23 March 2017 15:04 |
Bill Buckels
Messages: 1418
Registered: November 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"James Davis" <JPD.Enterprises@live.com> wrote:
> YES! I AM!! And, I need to archive all I have for Humanity!!!
Don't make a mountain out of a molehill :) Just go ahead and do it.
Get a Microdrive for your Apple //e or Apple IIgs... it is really trivial to
build a whack of disk images on a CF card then upload to your host machine
through your CF USB reader... using Ciderpress... no need for a bunch of
nuisance cabling like back in the 80's when sneaker net is so affordable and
simple.
It is also really trivial to transfer disk images using CF from the host and
then make real floppies from disk images on the Microdrive's CF volume.
I've had mine for almost a decade now... problem solved.
Regards,
Bill
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jason Scott Puts Call Out for Apple ][ Software Collections [message #340083 is a reply to message #340068] |
Thu, 23 March 2017 16:00 |
Steve Nickolas
Messages: 2036
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Thu, 23 Mar 2017, qkumba wrote:
>> I think that by now the future has pretty much been saved.
>
> Oh, but that's absolutely untrue. As we can see from 4am's collection,
> the number of "first-time preservations" continues to grow.
Quoted for truth.
If you look around you'll find that almost 15 years ago I was looking for
a program called "Juggles' Rainbow" that I remembered from when I was a
kid. It was nowhere to be found. Guess who found it and uploaded it?
4am.
Although not perfect, the first uploaded crack of MECC's "Word Wizards"
was mine. Other, different versions went up later, and I think one was
cracked by 4am.
I think the first complete crack of Bank Street Storybook - another
program I used the hell out of as a kid - was 4am's.
A lot of games only existed in defaced file cracks, until 4am and qkumba.
You'd be surprised how much is still there to be found.
-uso.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jason Scott Puts Call Out for Apple ][ Software Collections [message #340089 is a reply to message #340068] |
Thu, 23 March 2017 19:29 |
gids.rs
Messages: 1395
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Thursday, March 23, 2017 at 10:11:57 AM UTC-6, qkumba wrote:
>> I think that by now the future has pretty much been saved.
>
> Oh, but that's absolutely untrue. As we can see from 4am's collection, the number of "first-time preservations" continues to grow.
>
>> What we really need is a really fast computer to sort through all the redundant junk that got saved with it.
>
> Yes, and as Jason notes, the Internet Archive is working on exactly that.
Well, aren't you special deciphering what Jason is doing? I have been to his website, have you? and I don't see no organization.
There is nothing there to teach newcomers new to the Apple II, about the apple II or how to program the Apple II.
Compiling cracked games and allowing them to be played through a web browser isn't preserving.
I will admit it has its place in showing the next generation what was accomplished and graphics capabilities of the first home computers ever made. But preserving? That is not the word I would use in this instance.
If anything, making apple games playable through a web browser actually hurts the Apple II community because computer users don't get the hands on experience or the curiosity to learn to program to see how the programs were made.
All users will see is another game made playable on modern computers and with the use of modern joysticks.
Not impressed.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jason Scott Puts Call Out for Apple ][ Software Collections [message #340092 is a reply to message #340089] |
Thu, 23 March 2017 19:43 |
|
|
Originally posted by: Du Hast
On Thursday, March 23, 2017 at 6:29:28 PM UTC-5, gid...@sasktel.net wrote:
> On Thursday, March 23, 2017 at 10:11:57 AM UTC-6, qkumba wrote:
>>> I think that by now the future has pretty much been saved.
>>
>> Oh, but that's absolutely untrue. As we can see from 4am's collection, the number of "first-time preservations" continues to grow.
>>
>>> What we really need is a really fast computer to sort through all the redundant junk that got saved with it.
>>
>> Yes, and as Jason notes, the Internet Archive is working on exactly that.
>
>
>
> Well, aren't you special deciphering what Jason is doing? I have been to his website, have you? and I don't see no organization.
>
> There is nothing there to teach newcomers new to the Apple II, about the apple II or how to program the Apple II.
>
> Compiling cracked games and allowing them to be played through a web browser isn't preserving.
>
> I will admit it has its place in showing the next generation what was accomplished and graphics capabilities of the first home computers ever made. But preserving? That is not the word I would use in this instance.
>
> If anything, making apple games playable through a web browser actually hurts the Apple II community because computer users don't get the hands on experience or the curiosity to learn to program to see how the programs were made.
>
> All users will see is another game made playable on modern computers and with the use of modern joysticks.
>
> Not impressed.
I think there is two different preservations. One for those who want the nostalgia and those that educate the future. The future one is the tough part because that's akin to setting up some sort of "museum" quality experience that can immerse you in the subject.
Asimov is great, but it's tough to find software, and in the instances of downloading for the first time you have no idea what you're getting. What would be great is some sort of Apple/Asimov specific site with descriptions and a screenshots, ratings, etc.
As to what's keeping the next generation away from the "real" experience. People thinking working //e systems are worth $500 on Ebay, but that's another topic.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jason Scott Puts Call Out for Apple ][ Software Collections [message #340093 is a reply to message #340092] |
Thu, 23 March 2017 19:46 |
Steve Nickolas
Messages: 2036
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Thu, 23 Mar 2017, Du Hast wrote:
> On Thursday, March 23, 2017 at 6:29:28 PM UTC-5, gid...@sasktel.net wrote:
>>
>> Well, aren't you special deciphering what Jason is doing? I have been
>> to his website, have you? and I don't see no organization.
It's mostly him and 4am, rather than Jason, doing the grunt work.
> I think there is two different preservations. One for those who want
> the nostalgia and those that educate the future. The future one is the
> tough part because that's akin to setting up some sort of "museum"
> quality experience that can immerse you in the subject.
I won't disagree, nor do I think they are mutually exclusive.
> Asimov is great, but it's tough to find software, and in the instances
> of downloading for the first time you have no idea what you're getting.
> What would be great is some sort of Apple/Asimov specific site with
> descriptions and a screenshots, ratings, etc.
Yeah, something like Gamebase 64 targetted to the Apple ][ would be nice.
We have, I think, something of the ilk for the GS, but not for the 8-bit
Apples.
> As to what's keeping the next generation away from the "real"
> experience. People thinking working //e systems are worth $500 on Ebay,
> but that's another topic.
QFT
-uso.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jason Scott Puts Call Out for Apple ][ Software Collections [message #340098 is a reply to message #340045] |
Thu, 23 March 2017 23:04 |
|
|
Originally posted by: Mark D. Overholser
On 3/22/2017 18:18, James Davis wrote:
> Hi MarkO,
>
> On Wednesday, March 22, 2017 at 9:54:24 AM UTC-7, Mark D. Overholser wrote:
>>
>> We need a Campaign Slogan like,
>>
>> "Now is the Time, to Save the Future...."
>
> "Now is the Time, to Save the Future, by Preserving the Past!"
>
> Or, is that too obvious?
>
> James Davis
>
James;
That is the Logical continuation of my Statement... And the Whole
Concept if kind of Obvious..
But the Odds Say that the Longer we Wait to start the Recovery Process,
the Less Successful we will Be..
A lot of Disks have been maintaining their Data Integrity, but a few
brands Have Not...
The Time is Now!!!!!
MarkO
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jason Scott Puts Call Out for Apple ][ Software Collections [message #340120 is a reply to message #339973] |
Fri, 24 March 2017 11:40 |
|
|
Originally posted by: jason
Getting down into the mud as to my character and motivations and technique would be a waste of everyone's time, and I am a very busy fellow, as I'm sure some portion of you are.
I did want to address two salient points that seemed to rise from this discussion:
Steve Nickolas' statement that the important work happens *despite* me; I'd be chin-resting-in-hands fascinated to hear the second half of that stanza, because if there's something I need to do differently to get out of the way of important work, I'm fascinated and ready to hear.
The other is the belief stated that web-browser-based emulation in some way "hurts" the Apple II community, due to a (made-up) theory that a potential future Apple II user would be turned away from the actual hardware and contributions to anything Apple II because they were given the distilled click-once experience on the Archive and elsewhere and wouldn't ever "dig deeper".
I supposed I could just say "you're wrong", but I'll go a tad further.
My experience, perhaps not surprisingly, is the opposite; games and programs that are emulated on the archive live again in the minds of millions (literally millions, I have the logs) and people either play them quietly, or then go looking to learn more about what these programs are about and what machines were behind them.
I get nice letters from young people, mid to late teens and extending into far adulthood, about how much they enjoy learning about something that preceded them, or which they knew about vaguely but only now have the leisure or the opportunity to learn more about. It's the difference between a vague turn of phrase in the back of one's mind and a vivid and visual memory - giving folks near-instantaneous access to the software of a platform drives more fascination with that platform.
I've been told of real cases, written to me personally and posted generally, of using the web emulation to verify a fact, or describe play, or even do Twitch streams playing the old games and adding commentary. One of the brightest lights in this is Leigh Alexander, who is doing what are called "Lo-Fi Let's Plays" using the software on the Archive to talk about games and game experience:
https://www.youtube.com/user/leighalexander1/videos?sort=dd& amp;view=0&shelf_id=1
So no, I'm going to have to call a party foul on that one; totally not true.. Experiencing older technology and culture should not be a difficult, uphill climb punctuated with moments of bewilderment and frustration to ensure whoever goes through it is locked into some sort of Vintage Stockholm Syndrome.
Anyway, keep chatting, it's changing the world.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jason Scott Puts Call Out for Apple ][ Software Collections [message #340130 is a reply to message #340120] |
Fri, 24 March 2017 14:08 |
Steve Nickolas
Messages: 2036
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Fri, 24 Mar 2017, jason@textfiles.com wrote:
> Steve Nickolas' statement that the important work happens *despite* me;
> I'd be chin-resting-in-hands fascinated to hear the second half of that
> stanza, because if there's something I need to do differently to get out
> of the way of important work, I'm fascinated and ready to hear.
That's not what I meant. I meant that it would go on the same with or
without you - archive.org vs. asimov.net makes no real difference to the
fact that a lot of the preservation work is done by others.
(Not to rule out the fewer but larger matters like the Prince of Persia
source release, but that's a different matter, being that the sources
weren't what was commercially released!)
It's not that you don't play an important part - I just feel 4am and
qkumba's role is the role which has been the most essential. (Disclosure:
I, too, have done a couple cracks of programs for the same purpose as 4am
and qkumba, though on a much smaller scale than they. There's a few other
preservationist crackers around here too.)
> The other is the belief stated that web-browser-based emulation in some
> way "hurts" the Apple II community, due to a (made-up) theory that a
> potential future Apple II user would be turned away from the actual
> hardware and contributions to anything Apple II because they were given
> the distilled click-once experience on the Archive and elsewhere and
> wouldn't ever "dig deeper".
I'm going to disagree with this assertion and say that it is my belief
that what hurts the Apple ][ community is the fact that too many people
seem to see dollar signs in it. Granted, there was always that wealthier
hacker contingent who cut their teeth on the Apple ][, but there was also
that contingent whose experience with the ][ was mostly in schools, and
with samizdat software, and who really didn't have that kind of money to
burn, and some of us still don't. It's always been kind-of hard for
someone like me, who has always been on a limited income, to be involved
with the Apple ][ line, although it was a large part of my life for many
years.
The cost of metal is obscene, and a lot of people who would like to be
involved are just priced out of the market. We relive our experiences
through emulation. And Apple ][ emulation has been more than good enough
for a long time now, so even though we may prefer metal, we can make do
quite well without it.
-uso.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jason Scott Puts Call Out for Apple ][ Software Collections [message #340176 is a reply to message #340120] |
Sat, 25 March 2017 01:27 |
gids.rs
Messages: 1395
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Friday, March 24, 2017 at 9:40:21 AM UTC-6, ja...@textfiles.com wrote:
> Getting down into the mud as to my character and motivations and technique would be a waste of everyone's time, and I am a very busy fellow, as I'm sure some portion of you are.
>
> I did want to address two salient points that seemed to rise from this discussion:
>
> Steve Nickolas' statement that the important work happens *despite* me; I'd be chin-resting-in-hands fascinated to hear the second half of that stanza, because if there's something I need to do differently to get out of the way of important work, I'm fascinated and ready to hear.
>
> The other is the belief stated that web-browser-based emulation in some way "hurts" the Apple II community, due to a (made-up) theory that a potential future Apple II user would be turned away from the actual hardware and contributions to anything Apple II because they were given the distilled click-once experience on the Archive and elsewhere and wouldn't ever "dig deeper".
>
> I supposed I could just say "you're wrong", but I'll go a tad further.
>
> My experience, perhaps not surprisingly, is the opposite; games and programs that are emulated on the archive live again in the minds of millions (literally millions, I have the logs) and people either play them quietly, or then go looking to learn more about what these programs are about and what machines were behind them.
>
> I get nice letters from young people, mid to late teens and extending into far adulthood, about how much they enjoy learning about something that preceded them, or which they knew about vaguely but only now have the leisure or the opportunity to learn more about. It's the difference between a vague turn of phrase in the back of one's mind and a vivid and visual memory - giving folks near-instantaneous access to the software of a platform drives more fascination with that platform.
>
> I've been told of real cases, written to me personally and posted generally, of using the web emulation to verify a fact, or describe play, or even do Twitch streams playing the old games and adding commentary. One of the brightest lights in this is Leigh Alexander, who is doing what are called "Lo-Fi Let's Plays" using the software on the Archive to talk about games and game experience:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/user/leighalexander1/videos?sort=dd& amp;view=0&shelf_id=1
>
> So no, I'm going to have to call a party foul on that one; totally not true. Experiencing older technology and culture should not be a difficult, uphill climb punctuated with moments of bewilderment and frustration to ensure whoever goes through it is locked into some sort of Vintage Stockholm Syndrome.
>
> Anyway, keep chatting, it's changing the world.
Wow! There really is a lot of me, me, me and I got this and that from my followers in your post, isn't there?
You pretty much just proved the only thing that already is noticed by everyone else.
You are a gaming website that gives gamers a chance to play the same game on different platforms and compare them. Did they learn anything about the Apple or any other platform they played a game on? I doubt it. Did they have a chance to relive a game or program that they once saw in school, or had while growing up? More than likely. Are you looking for attention? More than likely.
You took advantage of the browser platform to allow internet goers to play Apple games without leaving their browser. Good for you! Would you like a cookie?
The sarcastic side of me wants to treat you like an adult, but the calmer side of me usually prevails and is really amazed by your insecurity. How old are you anyway?
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jason Scott Puts Call Out for Apple ][ Software Collections [message #340225 is a reply to message #340068] |
Sat, 25 March 2017 17:15 |
D Finnigan
Messages: 1154
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
qkumba wrote:
>> I think that by now the future has pretty much been saved.
>
> Oh, but that's absolutely untrue. As we can see from 4am's collection,
> the
> number of "first-time preservations" continues to grow.
>
The wheat has already been harvested; what remains now are people running
around collecting the chaff.
All the important Apple II software, all the titles that were really
memorable and influential, have already been saved and preserved.
--
]DF$
The Marina IP stack for Apple II--
http://marina.a2hq.com/
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jason Scott Puts Call Out for Apple ][ Software Collections [message #340226 is a reply to message #340092] |
Sat, 25 March 2017 17:18 |
D Finnigan
Messages: 1154
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Du Hast wrote:
>
> As to what's keeping the next generation away from the "real" experience.
> People thinking working //e systems are worth $500 on Ebay, but that's
> another topic.
I started a thread on Usenet on this very subject over a year ago and I was
very dismayed to see a general reaction of "so what/who cares?"
The emulators are no substitute. There are some better than others, but in
general, they all suck.
--
]DF$
The Marina IP stack for Apple II--
http://marina.a2hq.com/
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jason Scott Puts Call Out for Apple ][ Software Collections [message #340227 is a reply to message #340176] |
Sat, 25 March 2017 17:32 |
D Finnigan
Messages: 1154
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
gids.rs wrote:
>
> You took advantage of the browser platform to allow internet goers to play
> Apple games without leaving their browser. Good for you! Would you like
> a
> cookie?
Which, by the way, already existed on Bill Marten's virtualapple.org site,
using the Free Tools Association's browser plugin.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jason Scott Puts Call Out for Apple ][ Software Collections [message #340236 is a reply to message #340199] |
Sat, 25 March 2017 17:40 |
D Finnigan
Messages: 1154
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Bill Buckels wrote:
> <jason@textfiles.com> wrote:
>> Anyway, keep chatting, it's changing the world.
>
> On the plus side:
>
> http://www.cultofmac.com/473081/archivist-seeks-preserve-eve ry-apple-ii-program-ever-created/
>
> Archivist seeks to preserve every Apple II program ever created
> By David Pierini - 5:32 am, March 23, 2017
>
> This article got 93 likes and loves in the Apple II Enthusiasts FaceBook
> Group so far despite the fact that some of us chat over there too... and I
>
> think the thing to remember in all of this (it's probably not much comfort
>
> :) but... 10% of the people will always complain about something, no
> matter
If so many people care more only for copying old things, than creating new
things, is the platform now dead?
Is it now dead like the ancient cultures of Egypt, Rome, or South America?
Where we just read and study and copy the old texts and artifacts? All the
important Apple II software, all the titles that were really memorable and
influential, have already been saved and preserved.
Or do people latch on to the preservation craze because they have a hoarding
impulse or because copying disks takes less brainpower and is a fairly
passive activity? (Note here: I get the impression that 4am and the other
crackers are in it more for the fun & challenge of cracking, and I have
enjoyed reading the walkthroughs that he writes.)
My Apple II is alive! And I wrote a book (and price it inexpensively to get
it in the hands of as many people as I can) to get as many new and returning
people as I can to the Apple II.
--
]DF$
The Marina IP stack for Apple II--
http://marina.a2hq.com/
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jason Scott Puts Call Out for Apple ][ Software Collections [message #340239 is a reply to message #340236] |
Sat, 25 March 2017 19:13 |
Michael AppleWin Debu
Messages: 1262
Registered: March 2013
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Saturday, March 25, 2017 at 2:43:36 PM UTC-7, D Finnigan wrote:
> Or do people latch on to the preservation craze because they have a hoarding
> impulse or because copying disks takes less brainpower and is a fairly
> passive activity? (Note here: I get the impression that 4am and the other
> crackers are in it more for the fun & challenge of cracking, and I have
> enjoyed reading the walkthroughs that he writes.)
I can't speak of everyone but learning to "crack" games was one of the reasons I even got into programming in the first place.
I've finally finished a MASSIVE write-up for one of my favorite programs.
Along the way I've discovered a few easter eggs. (Hush Nick. :-)
I expect to be making a thread/post shortly about my "first" Apple "crack."
(I've cracked quite a few x86 games -- but never an Apple 2 game because they had already been done.)
I have almost finished buying my set of original Br0derbund games. There is usually 1 easter egg in every software title waiting to be discovered. i.e. I've discovered one in Gumball that _isn't_ known (to my knowledge.)
I'm _still_ trying to track down an original of Captain Goodnight BTW.
Or at least a nibble dump. :-)
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jason Scott Puts Call Out for Apple ][ Software Collections [message #340241 is a reply to message #339973] |
Sat, 25 March 2017 19:35 |
|
|
Originally posted by: Tom Porter
I think all the major stuff has been archived (there are exceptions, and we will find them with time)... but i'd be more focused of acquiring all the little things people have done since the late 90's till now... there is a ton of 'homebrew' games and software people have made but exist only on their own websites or in small pockets in places that people thought it was neat or unique. I personally have two games that I would love to be put into the archives, and I'm sure authors who would have had the same possibility to have them added to a major archive would also as well.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jason Scott Puts Call Out for Apple ][ Software Collections [message #340246 is a reply to message #340226] |
Sat, 25 March 2017 20:40 |
|
|
Originally posted by: Du Hast
On Saturday, March 25, 2017 at 4:21:12 PM UTC-5, D Finnigan wrote:
> Du Hast wrote:
>>
>> As to what's keeping the next generation away from the "real" experience.
>> People thinking working //e systems are worth $500 on Ebay, but that's
>> another topic.
>
> I started a thread on Usenet on this very subject over a year ago and I was
> very dismayed to see a general reaction of "so what/who cares?"
>
> The emulators are no substitute. There are some better than others, but in
> general, they all suck.
>
> --
> ]DF$
> The Marina IP stack for Apple II--
> http://marina.a2hq.com/
Well should we start a new thread? What's really driving it? I haven't done the Ebay research but are people getting these prices? I've been personally looking for a basic //e system to do some gameport experiments with because I don't want to fry my "good" system and it's a been real challenge. $300 or $400 plus shipping is ridiculous.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jason Scott Puts Call Out for Apple ][ Software Collections [message #340247 is a reply to message #340044] |
Sat, 25 March 2017 21:19 |
Hugh Hood
Messages: 678
Registered: November 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On 3/22/2017 8:04 PM, James Davis wrote:
>
> Does anybody have any information (Tech Manuals) about the "Advanced
> Logic Systems" "Advanced Serial Interface" Rev.1? Someone (Jim {last
> name forgotten}) gave me one a long time ago. It might substitute
> for an SSC.
>
Jim,
Based on this picture
<http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/eJIAAOSw5cNYk4~O/s-l1600.jpg>, it appears
that the card used the 6850P serial chip, rather than the 6551 ACIA that
the Super Serial Card did.
Other than that picture, I really couldn't find anything else about it
on the 'net.
It seems that SSM and also CCS had serial cards that used the 6850 as
well, as I remember having them years ago driving serial NEC Spinwriters
before I standardized on the Apple SSC for everything.
So, I'm pretty sure that ADTPro (which uses the SSC/6551 hardware
registers rather than firmware to communicate at 115,200 baud) won't
currently support it.
David Schmidt knows for sure as ADTPro is his baby.
Hugh Hood
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jason Scott Puts Call Out for Apple ][ Software Collections [message #340250 is a reply to message #340236] |
Sat, 25 March 2017 21:57 |
Bill Buckels
Messages: 1418
Registered: November 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
"D Finnigan" <dog_cow@macgui.com> wrote:
> If so many people care more only for copying old things, than creating new
> things, is the platform now dead?
(You've mentioned this before I think..)
No, but your lament is similar to mine... too few people actually do
something new, and just follow the old ways is mine... (I also love MS-DOS
as much as I ever loved CP/M, DOS 3.3 and ProDOS 8, and certainly more than
anything else Apple ever did... just to be ornery and put an edge on my
mission :)
> Or do people latch on to the preservation craze because they have a
> hoarding impulse or because copying disks takes less brainpower and is a
> fairly passive activity?
The latter of course :) But hey, they want to belong to something
attainable... as much as I want everyone to write Apple II graphics programs
in C on a Windows Computer....
Evangelically,
Bill
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jason Scott Puts Call Out for Apple ][ Software Collections [message #340252 is a reply to message #340250] |
Sat, 25 March 2017 22:21 |
Steve Nickolas
Messages: 2036
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Sat, 25 Mar 2017, Bill Buckels wrote:
> "D Finnigan" <dog_cow@macgui.com> wrote:
>> If so many people care more only for copying old things, than creating new
>> things, is the platform now dead?
>
> (You've mentioned this before I think..)
>
> No, but your lament is similar to mine... too few people actually do
> something new, and just follow the old ways is mine... (I also love MS-DOS
> as much as I ever loved CP/M, DOS 3.3 and ProDOS 8, and certainly more than
> anything else Apple ever did... just to be ornery and put an edge on my
> mission :)
I swing both ways, Apple and PC (though I must say, MS-DOS is a much more
hackable environment than any modern OS :P)
I always lament my lack of skill, but I've made several unsuccessful
attempts to make new ports of games I enjoyed to old systems.
>> Or do people latch on to the preservation craze because they have a
>> hoarding impulse or because copying disks takes less brainpower and is a
>> fairly passive activity?
>
> The latter of course :) But hey, they want to belong to something
> attainable... as much as I want everyone to write Apple II graphics programs
> in C on a Windows Computer....
Speaking of writing Apple ][ programs in C, if we were to have a source
tree that, in theory, could be used to build Commander Keen 4 on MS-DOS -
and that's C mixed with 8088 ASM - I wonder if we could get it onto the
GS using the most similar graphics mode, the 320x200x16 mode. ;)
-uso.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jason Scott Puts Call Out for Apple ][ Software Collections [message #340259 is a reply to message #340258] |
Sun, 26 March 2017 02:02 |
Steve Nickolas
Messages: 2036
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Sat, 25 Mar 2017, Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev' wrote:
>> but I've made several unsuccessful attempts to make new ports of games
>> I enjoyed to old systems.
>
> Which games?
>
Arkanoid 2 and a bunch of old Namco games (Galaga and Bosconian
especially). The closest I ever really got as a kindasorta functional
Arkanoid port in QuickBasic, which was like the third time I had tried to
do it.
-uso.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jason Scott Puts Call Out for Apple ][ Software Collections [message #340260 is a reply to message #340236] |
Sun, 26 March 2017 03:01 |
Michael J. Mahon
Messages: 1767
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
D Finnigan <dog_cow@macgui.com> wrote:
> Bill Buckels wrote:
>> <jason@textfiles.com> wrote:
>>> Anyway, keep chatting, it's changing the world.
>>
>> On the plus side:
>>
>> http://www.cultofmac.com/473081/archivist-seeks-preserve-eve ry-apple-ii-program-ever-created/
>>
>> Archivist seeks to preserve every Apple II program ever created
>> By David Pierini - 5:32 am, March 23, 2017
>>
>> This article got 93 likes and loves in the Apple II Enthusiasts FaceBook
>> Group so far despite the fact that some of us chat over there too... and I
>>
>> think the thing to remember in all of this (it's probably not much comfort
>>
>> :) but... 10% of the people will always complain about something, no
>> matter
>
> If so many people care more only for copying old things, than creating new
> things, is the platform now dead?
>
> Is it now dead like the ancient cultures of Egypt, Rome, or South America?
> Where we just read and study and copy the old texts and artifacts? All the
> important Apple II software, all the titles that were really memorable and
> influential, have already been saved and preserved.
>
> Or do people latch on to the preservation craze because they have a hoarding
> impulse or because copying disks takes less brainpower and is a fairly
> passive activity? (Note here: I get the impression that 4am and the other
> crackers are in it more for the fun & challenge of cracking, and I have
> enjoyed reading the walkthroughs that he writes.)
>
> My Apple II is alive! And I wrote a book (and price it inexpensively to get
> it in the hands of as many people as I can) to get as many new and returning
> people as I can to the Apple II.
>
Don't worry--Apple II development continues, both hardware and software.
Only now it's for love and not for money (since the market is relatively
small).
Preservation of the past is important, too--they're not mutually exclusive.
But the past was BIG, so preservation is a megaproject that needs all the
marketing and support that the community can muster.
Still, there's plenty of interest in developing for the Apple II, and
developers' average age isn't growing by a year per year. ;-)
--
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com
|
|
|
|
| Re: Jason Scott Puts Call Out for Apple ][ Software Collections [message #340271 is a reply to message #340225] |
Sun, 26 March 2017 04:20 |
sicklittlemonkey
Messages: 570
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Sunday, 26 March 2017 10:18:24 UTC+13, D Finnigan wrote:
> qkumba wrote:
>> Oh, but that's absolutely untrue. As we can see from 4am's collection,
>> the number of "first-time preservations" continues to grow.
>
> The wheat has already been harvested; what remains now are people running
> around collecting the chaff.
>
> All the important Apple II software, all the titles that were really
> memorable and influential, have already been saved and preserved.
The most memorable recent counterexample to your assertion is Lady Tut, which was only preserved in full thanks to the efforts of qkumba and a number of other stalwart preservationists.
Cheers,
Nick.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Members
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
