| "Sticky" 80Mb Quantum Drives [message #337704] |
Sat, 18 February 2017 17:18  |
Wesley Furr
Messages: 79
Registered: September 2012
Karma: 0
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Member |
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Well...Murphy has struck. Someone gave me a Mac Classic II a year or so
ago, and it worked great. But, I pulled it apart, knowing it would need
capacitors replaced. I removed the old ones and cleaned it up, then set it
aside. Finally got around to installing new caps recently, and today I put
it back together and fired it up, worked great. Spent a little time messing
with it and playing a game, then shut it down. Went to fire it back up, and
I get the flashing "?" floppy icon. Crap. Sounds like the drive is
spinning up, then down, then maybe up and down again, but not hearing the
chatter of the heads moving. I didn't look closely and haven't opened it
back up, but it looked like the bottom of a Quantum drive, and I know it was
80Mb. My recollection from the past is that those drives are famous for
allowing the heads to hang up in the parked position. Aside from pulling
the cover and manually releasing the heads (obviously only good for a
last-ditch effort to recover data), has anyone found or heard of any tricks
to bring those drives back to life?
Thanks,
Wesley
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| Re: "Sticky" 80Mb Quantum Drives [message #337709 is a reply to message #337704] |
Sat, 18 February 2017 19:18  |
Doug Kiekow
Messages: 16
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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There are several voodoo fixes that might help. Since the drive is somewhat inaccessible try turning the whole computer upside down for maybe a half hour and then try booting in that position. Another fix is to remove and freeze the drive, overnight in a cold freezer, then try installing it and booting.
> On Feb 18, 2017, at 4:18 PM, Wesley Furr <wesley@megley.com> wrote:
>
> has anyone found or heard of any tricks to bring those drives back to life?
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| Re: "Sticky" 80Mb Quantum Drives [message #337710 is a reply to message #337704] |
Sat, 18 February 2017 19:28 |
vintage-macs
Messages: 425
Registered: April 2014
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Hi Wesley,
Short answer is no.
Here's the reason why.
There is a rubber bump stop on the inside. The rubber deteriorates over time and becomes sticky.
Only way to fix it is to open the drive, dismantle the drive magnet which controls the movement of the arm on which the read/write heads ride.
Then carefully clean off the gooey rubber gunk and use a good cleaning fluid - IsoPropyl Alcohol works fine - and remove all traces of the gunk. This take time as the gunk sticks to everything, including your skin, your clothes and anything else it comes into contact with. If any gunk touches the driver platter, it's game over.
I have successfully cleaned a Quantum drive of the gunk and I used a piece of hose for a car's windshield washer system to make a new bump stop. The drive works flawlessly. In fact, it didn't work when I first switched on the LCIII in which it was installed - The wrong System Enabler had been installed. As soon as I swapped the LC475 enabler for a LCIII enabler, it booted into 7.1 without issue.
The whole procedure should take place in a clean environment - this guy shows how to build one cheaply - but given the storage capacity of the drive, the drive is less likely to crash compared to a modern drive. The magnetized area is much larger in comparison to a modern drive.
It's a pity that you only got the one go out of it before the sticky problem stopped it working.
But with a little bit of courage and a few hours, you can make it work again.
Have a can of airduster on hand to keep contaminants to a minimum as you replace the lid and tighten the screws.
I haven't used mine in a few weeks but I would like to build the clean room box and give it a thorough cleaning before using it frequently.
Hope this helps,
Keith
From: Wesley Furr <wesley@megley.com>
To: vintage-macs@googlegroups.com
Sent: Saturday, 18 February 2017, 22:18
Subject: "Sticky" 80Mb Quantum Drives
Well...Murphy has struck. Someone gave me a Mac Classic II a year or so ago, and it worked great. But, I pulled it apart, knowing it would need capacitors replaced. I removed the old ones and cleaned it up, then set it aside. Finally got around to installing new caps recently, and today I put it back together and fired it up, worked great. Spent a little time messing with it and playing a game, then shut it down. Went to fire it back up, and I get the flashing "?" floppy icon. Crap. Sounds like the drive is spinning up, then down, then maybe up and down again, but not hearing the chatter of the heads moving. I didn't look closely and haven't opened it back up, but it looked like the bottom of a Quantum drive, and I know it was 80Mb. My recollection from the past is that those drives are famous for allowing the heads to hang up in the parked position. Aside from pulling the cover and manually releasing the heads (obviously only good for a last-ditch effort to recover data), has anyone found or heard of any tricks to bring those drives back to life? Thanks, Wesley --
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| Re: "Sticky" 80Mb Quantum Drives [message #337711 is a reply to message #337709] |
Sat, 18 February 2017 19:35 |
vintage-macs
Messages: 425
Registered: April 2014
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Hi Doug,
I would advise against the freezer method. While this will harden the rubber bump stop, as it returns to room temperature, the stickiness returns. Also, the air inside the drive will cool and reintroducing the drive to a warmer environment will casue condensation to form on the platters - think of cold temperatures outside and what forms on the glass inside the house - or the condensation that forms on a soda can just out of the refrigerator on a warm day.
Turning it upside down might work but this is only a temporary fix while the drive might be copied to a ZIP disk.
Regards,
Keith
From: Doug Kiekow <dougyk@me.com>
To: 'Keith Jamison' via Vintage Macs <vintage-macs@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, 19 February 2017, 0:18
Subject: Re: "Sticky" 80Mb Quantum Drives
There are several voodoo fixes that might help. Since the drive is somewhat inaccessible try turning the whole computer upside down for maybe a half hour and then try booting in that position. Another fix is to remove and freeze the drive, overnight in a cold freezer, then try installing it and booting.
On Feb 18, 2017, at 4:18 PM, Wesley Furr <wesley@megley.com> wrote:
has anyone found or heard of any tricks to bring those drives back to life?
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| RE: "Sticky" 80Mb Quantum Drives [message #337712 is a reply to message #337710] |
Sat, 18 February 2017 19:50 |
Wesley Furr
Messages: 79
Registered: September 2012
Karma: 0
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Member |
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I may have to try the upside-down trick...would be nice to at least copy off
what is on it...or at least the Lemmings game that my wife likes...lol...
:-) As for freezing, believe it or not, that trick helped me recover data
from a more modern laptop hard drive some years back. Didn't leave it
overnight, but long enough that it probably was frozen all the way through.
Worked great just long enough to get stuff off, then it was done for and
wouldn't come back. Certainly not recommended other than as a last-ditch
effort!
I may have to give it a try repairing it...hopefully after getting a few
files off. Have a few other of those drives around too, at least one I know
I killed trying to resurrect it...that might be a good one to play with to
see what I need to do on one that might still be repairable. What part did
you use - part of a wiper blade?
Could you re-post the link to the clean room box? It did not seem to make
it through in your email...
Thanks,
Wesley
_____
From: 'Keith Jamison' via Vintage Macs
[mailto:vintage-macs@googlegroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 7:29 PM
To: vintage-macs@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: "Sticky" 80Mb Quantum Drives
Hi Wesley,
Short answer is no.
Here's the reason why.
There is a rubber bump stop on the inside. The rubber deteriorates over time
and becomes sticky.
Only way to fix it is to open the drive, dismantle the drive magnet which
controls the movement of the arm on which the read/write heads ride.
Then carefully clean off the gooey rubber gunk and use a good cleaning fluid
- IsoPropyl Alcohol works fine - and remove all traces of the gunk. This
take time as the gunk sticks to everything, including your skin, your
clothes and anything else it comes into contact with. If any gunk touches
the driver platter, it's game over.
I have successfully cleaned a Quantum drive of the gunk and I used a piece
of hose for a car's windshield washer system to make a new bump stop. The
drive works flawlessly. In fact, it didn't work when I first switched on the
LCIII in which it was installed - The wrong System Enabler had been
installed. As soon as I swapped the LC475 enabler for a LCIII enabler, it
booted into 7.1 without issue.
The whole procedure should take place in a clean environment - this guy
shows how to build one cheaply - but given the storage capacity of the
drive, the drive is less likely to crash compared to a modern drive. The
magnetized area is much larger in comparison to a modern drive.
It's a pity that you only got the one go out of it before the sticky problem
stopped it working.
But with a little bit of courage and a few hours, you can make it work
again.
Have a can of airduster on hand to keep contaminants to a minimum as you
replace the lid and tighten the screws.
I haven't used mine in a few weeks but I would like to build the clean room
box and give it a thorough cleaning before using it frequently.
Hope this helps,
Keith
_____
From: Wesley Furr <wesley@megley.com>
To: vintage-macs@googlegroups.com
Sent: Saturday, 18 February 2017, 22:18
Subject: "Sticky" 80Mb Quantum Drives
Well...Murphy has struck. Someone gave me a Mac Classic II a year or so
ago, and it worked great. But, I pulled it apart, knowing it would need
capacitors replaced. I removed the old ones and cleaned it up, then set it
aside. Finally got around to installing new caps recently, and today I put
it back together and fired it up, worked great. Spent a little time messing
with it and playing a game, then shut it down. Went to fire it back up, and
I get the flashing "?" floppy icon. Crap. Sounds like the drive is
spinning up, then down, then maybe up and down again, but not hearing the
chatter of the heads moving. I didn't look closely and haven't opened it
back up, but it looked like the bottom of a Quantum drive, and I know it was
80Mb. My recollection from the past is that those drives are famous for
allowing the heads to hang up in the parked position. Aside from pulling
the cover and manually releasing the heads (obviously only good for a
last-ditch effort to recover data), has anyone found or heard of any tricks
to bring those drives back to life?
Thanks,
Wesley
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| Re: "Sticky" 80Mb Quantum Drives [message #337713 is a reply to message #337711] |
Sat, 18 February 2017 20:04 |
Doug Kiekow
Messages: 16
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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Could well be, I can only relate things that have worked for me. There is a full height drive (IBM) in my Quadra 950 that’s been in the freezer more times than I care to think about over the last decade and it hasn’t groaned it’s last yet. My more classic macs have a mixture of drives, but mostly Quantum, and they have survived even more extreme measures. The last 2 Connor drives that totally failed I’ve replaced with SCSI2SD adapters, and think I will continue that conversion if and when other drives fail.
> On Feb 18, 2017, at 6:35 PM, 'Keith Jamison' via Vintage Macs <vintage-macs@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> I would advise against the freezer method
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| Re: "Sticky" 80Mb Quantum Drives [message #337714 is a reply to message #337709] |
Sat, 18 February 2017 20:14 |
vintage-macs
Messages: 425
Registered: April 2014
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Some drives have a rubber or soft plastic bump stop for the head actuator. If stored for a long period of time with the heads parked, the part of the actuator that touches the stop can get stuck to it - or the material the stop is made of can deteriorate and get sticky.
Freezing the drive may harden the stop and if it causes enough differential shrinkage between the stop and what's stuck to it, it can pop loose.
Some drives use a small magnet to hold the actuator parked, and if left there for a long time the steel piece on the actuator can become overly magnetized to where the attraction is too strong for the actuator to overcome to be able to move.
This also happens a lot in CD and DVD drives left unused without a disc inserted for a very long time. They use a magnet on one side and a piece of steel on the other side of the disc clamp. Usually the magnet is on the spindle motor. Without a disc in, the clamp parts fit closer together and can develop an attraction too strong for the eject mechanism to separate unless there's a disc inserted to hold the clamp farther apart.
For that problem in a hard drive, a small piece of aluminum foil flue tape stuck onto the non-moving side of the stop could keep it far enough apart to weaken the magnetic attraction. For optical drives I've super glued layers of thin cardboard onto the clamp hub so that when a disc is in the center of clamp and hub have a very tiny gap. Without a disc the clamp is kept far enough from the magnet that it can break the attraction. Even then, some clamps get too strongly magnetized. (A tape eraser might work to cure this. Take the cover off the drive and zap the clamp from both sides. I don't have a tape eraser.)
Hard drives and optical drives with the ability to develop this problem happened because the people who designed them either never envisioned them being left unused for years, or if they did consider this problem didn't figure it would/could ever happen. Who would never use a hard drive for a decade or never put a disk in a drive for years? Making the actuators and eject mechanisms strong enough to overcome the force of over-magnetized park and disc clamps would cost more - why bother doing that for a situation that would 'never happen'?
Same thing with hard drives that don't hold the heads in park with a magnet. If they considered the performance of the bump stop material when something is pressed against it for years, they likely figured getting sticky was a non-issue because nobody would ever leave a drive parked and unused for a long time.
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| Re: "Sticky" 80Mb Quantum Drives [message #337720 is a reply to message #337712] |
Sat, 18 February 2017 20:48 |
vintage-macs
Messages: 425
Registered: April 2014
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Hopefully it works this time, Wesley.
How to Make a Clean Air Enclosure (for HDD repair etc)
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How to Make a Clean Air Enclosure (for HDD repair etc)
In this video, I will show you how to build a clean air enclosure for hard drive data recovery or other sensitiv... | |
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If not, google "Youtube disk drive clean box" and the guy is called "DIY Perks". He's English.
Regards,
Keith
From: Wesley Furr <wesley@megley.com>
To: vintage-macs@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 19 February 2017, 0:50
Subject: RE: "Sticky" 80Mb Quantum Drives
I may have to try the upside-down trick...would be nice to at least copy off what is on it...or at least the Lemmings game that my wife likes...lol... :-) As for freezing, believe it or not, that trick helped me recover data from a more modern laptop hard drive some years back. Didn't leave it overnight, but long enough that it probably was frozen all the way through. Worked great just long enough to get stuff off, then it was done for and wouldn't come back. Certainly not recommended other than as a last-ditch effort! I may have to give it a try repairing it...hopefully after getting a few files off. Have a few other of those drives around too, at least one I know I killed trying to resurrect it...that might be a good one to play with to see what I need to do on one that might still be repairable. What part did you use - part of a wiper blade? Could you re-post the link to the clean room box? It did not seem to make it through in your email... Thanks, Wesley
From: 'Keith Jamison' via Vintage Macs [mailto:vintage-macs@googlegroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 7:29 PM
To: vintage-macs@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: "Sticky" 80Mb Quantum Drives
Hi Wesley,
Short answer is no.
Here's the reason why.
There is a rubber bump stop on the inside. The rubber deteriorates over time and becomes sticky.
Only way to fix it is to open the drive, dismantle the drive magnet which controls the movement of the arm on which the read/write heads ride.
Then carefully clean off the gooey rubber gunk and use a good cleaning fluid - IsoPropyl Alcohol works fine - and remove all traces of the gunk. This take time as the gunk sticks to everything, including your skin, your clothes and anything else it comes into contact with. If any gunk touches the driver platter, it's game over.
I have successfully cleaned a Quantum drive of the gunk and I used a piece of hose for a car's windshield washer system to make a new bump stop. The drive works flawlessly. In fact, it didn't work when I first switched on the LCIII in which it was installed - The wrong System Enabler had been installed. As soon as I swapped the LC475 enabler for a LCIII enabler, it booted into 7.1 without issue.
The whole procedure should take place in a clean environment - this guy shows how to build one cheaply - but given the storage capacity of the drive, the drive is less likely to crash compared to a modern drive. The magnetized area is much larger in comparison to a modern drive.
It's a pity that you only got the one go out of it before the sticky problem stopped it working.
But with a little bit of courage and a few hours, you can make it work again.
Have a can of airduster on hand to keep contaminants to a minimum as you replace the lid and tighten the screws.
I haven't used mine in a few weeks but I would like to build the clean room box and give it a thorough cleaning before using it frequently.
Hope this helps,
Keith
From: Wesley Furr <wesley@megley.com>
To: vintage-macs@googlegroups.com
Sent: Saturday, 18 February 2017, 22:18
Subject: "Sticky" 80Mb Quantum Drives
Well...Murphy has struck. Someone gave me a Mac Classic II a year or so ago, and it worked great. But, I pulled it apart, knowing it would need capacitors replaced. I removed the old ones and cleaned it up, then set it aside. Finally got around to installing new caps recently, and today I put it back together and fired it up, worked great. Spent a little time messing with it and playing a game, then shut it down. Went to fire it back up, and I get the flashing "?" floppy icon. Crap. Sounds like the drive is spinning up, then down, then maybe up and down again, but not hearing the chatter of the heads moving. I didn't look closely and haven't opened it back up, but it looked like the bottom of a Quantum drive, and I know it was 80Mb. My recollection from the past is that those drives are famous for allowing the heads to hang up in the parked position. Aside from pulling the cover and manually releasing the heads (obviously only good for a last-ditch effort to recover data), has anyone found or heard of any tricks to bring those drives back to life? Thanks, Wesley --
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| Re: "Sticky" 80Mb Quantum Drives [message #337721 is a reply to message #337713] |
Sat, 18 February 2017 20:52 |
vintage-macs
Messages: 425
Registered: April 2014
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Ugh! Conner drives, don't start me... I just don't bother with them at all. I watched a YouTube video of a guy claiming to be able to fix an old SCSI hard drive and after he tried all his tricks he relaised it was a Conner and hollered! LOL! Then he picked out a Quantum drive and his tricks worked on that.
Freezing never worked for me so, that's why I said no to that. Ultimately, its whatever works.
I have also purchased 2 SCSI2SD adapters and they are brilliant!
Regards,
Keith
From: Doug Kiekow <dougyk@me.com>
To: vintage-macs@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 19 February 2017, 1:04
Subject: Re: "Sticky" 80Mb Quantum Drives
Could well be, I can only relate things that have worked for me. There is a full height drive (IBM) in my Quadra 950 that’s been in the freezer more times than I care to think about over the last decade and it hasn’t groaned it’s last yet. My more classic macs have a mixture of drives, but mostly Quantum, and they have survived even more extreme measures. The last 2 Connor drives that totally failed I’ve replaced with SCSI2SD adapters, and think I will continue that conversion if and when other drives fail.
On Feb 18, 2017, at 6:35 PM, 'Keith Jamison' via Vintage Macs <vintage-macs@googlegroups.com> wrote:
I would advise against the freezer method
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| Re: "Sticky" 80Mb Quantum Drives [message #337722 is a reply to message #337714] |
Sat, 18 February 2017 20:59 |
vintage-macs
Messages: 425
Registered: April 2014
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Hi Greg,
The people who designed the drives likely never envisioned the technology would last more than a few years. 5MB disk drives were replaced by 10MB and 20MB drives and they went from full-height to half-height. Stepper motor technology advanced, magnetic coatings advanced, suddenly 40MB and 80MB drives were possible. Transfer your old stuff off the 20MB drive and dump it... Even today, 1TB drives have 2TB, 3TB and 4TB replacements and even higher capacities.
Ultimately, it's a testament to the original engineers who designed and built these old drives that with a little bit of dedicated tweaking and cleaning, this old technology can be resurrected by enthusiasts.
Regards,
Keith
From: 'Gregg Eshelman' via Vintage Macs <vintage-macs@googlegroups.com>
To: "vintage-macs@googlegroups.com" <vintage-macs@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, 19 February 2017, 1:14
Subject: Re: "Sticky" 80Mb Quantum Drives
Some drives have a rubber or soft plastic bump stop for the head actuator. If stored for a long period of time with the heads parked, the part of the actuator that touches the stop can get stuck to it - or the material the stop is made of can deteriorate and get sticky.
Freezing the drive may harden the stop and if it causes enough differential shrinkage between the stop and what's stuck to it, it can pop loose.
Some drives use a small magnet to hold the actuator parked, and if left there for a long time the steel piece on the actuator can become overly magnetized to where the attraction is too strong for the actuator to overcome to be able to move.
This also happens a lot in CD and DVD drives left unused without a disc inserted for a very long time. They use a magnet on one side and a piece of steel on the other side of the disc clamp. Usually the magnet is on the spindle motor. Without a disc in, the clamp parts fit closer together and can develop an attraction too strong for the eject mechanism to separate unless there's a disc inserted to hold the clamp farther apart.
For that problem in a hard drive, a small piece of aluminum foil flue tape stuck onto the non-moving side of the stop could keep it far enough apart to weaken the magnetic attraction. For optical drives I've super glued layers of thin cardboard onto the clamp hub so that when a disc is in the center of clamp and hub have a very tiny gap. Without a disc the clamp is kept far enough from the magnet that it can break the attraction. Even then, some clamps get too strongly magnetized. (A tape eraser might work to cure this. Take the cover off the drive and zap the clamp from both sides. I don't have a tape eraser.)
Hard drives and optical drives with the ability to develop this problem happened because the people who designed them either never envisioned them being left unused for years, or if they did consider this problem didn't figure it would/could ever happen. Who would never use a hard drive for a decade or never put a disk in a drive for years? Making the actuators and eject mechanisms strong enough to overcome the force of over-magnetized park and disc clamps would cost more - why bother doing that for a situation that would 'never happen'?
Same thing with hard drives that don't hold the heads in park with a magnet. If they considered the performance of the bump stop material when something is pressed against it for years, they likely figured getting sticky was a non-issue because nobody would ever leave a drive parked and unused for a long time.
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| Re: "Sticky" 80Mb Quantum Drives [message #337747 is a reply to message #337704] |
Sun, 19 February 2017 09:13 |
coverturtle
Messages: 26
Registered: February 2013
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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My standard ploy when I encounter this problem is to pick up the (Mac
II) box and rapidly jerk the box, rotating it partially in the same
geometric plane as the drive and thus unsticking the drive platters and
heads.
However, there is also the possibility that the lubricant in the drive
bearings has finally failed, either from evaporation or oxidation,
condition exasperated by heat. Hence, your best defense is to copy the
drive contents, or at least all the applications and documents, because
when you have a copy of the O.S. you can reload that to a new drive and
copy your non-O.S. data and applications to the new drive from the
floppies.
If you have something like a separate compatible SCSI drive with an
appropriate cable, you can copy your content to that drive. I highly
recommend the old 4GB IBM manufactured enterprise drives as a
replacement. These drives are identified by a prominent yellow band
around the length and noticeable open cooling vents in the case. I have
several of these and they still run great. You will need an SCA to 50
pin SCSI or 68 pin SCSI to 50 pin SCSI adapter board for most of them.
(Great piece of old IBM iron!)
On 02/18/2017 05:18 PM, Wesley Furr wrote:
> Well...Murphy has struck. Someone gave me a Mac Classic II a year or
> so ago, and it worked great. But, I pulled it apart, knowing it would
> need capacitors replaced. I removed the old ones and cleaned it up,
> then set it aside. Finally got around to installing new caps
> recently, and today I put it back together and fired it up, worked
> great. Spent a little time messing with it and playing a game, then
> shut it down. Went to fire it back up, and I get the flashing "?"
> floppy icon. Crap. Sounds like the drive is spinning up, then down,
> then maybe up and down again, but not hearing the chatter of the heads
> moving. I didn't look closely and haven't opened it back up, but it
> looked like the bottom of a Quantum drive, and I know it was 80Mb. My
> recollection from the past is that those drives are famous for
> allowing the heads to hang up in the parked position. Aside from
> pulling the cover and manually releasing the heads (obviously only
> good for a last-ditch effort to recover data), has anyone found or
> heard of any tricks to bring those drives back to life?
> Thanks,
> Wesley
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