| Getting a Sider hard drive working (question from another site) [message #330579] |
Mon, 17 October 2016 18:12  |
sicklittlemonkey
Messages: 570
Registered: October 2012
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Hi guys.
Someone had this question, and although I found some info from old CSA2
posts I thought I'd check if anyone knows any more. For instance how
many Xebec controller cards where there, and did they just differ in
firmware?
"What should I look for in a controller card? I've read that the Sider
was SASI (the forerunner of SCSI) and that the RamFAST card by
Sequential Systems would be a good choice for a controller (assuming I
can find one). I've also read that Apple produced a SCSI controller for
the //e and //gs but I am uncertain if that card would work with a SASI
drive (assuming the drive is SASI)."
The original question and my current answer are here:
http://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/questions/1582/how-t o-connect-an
-apple-iie-to-an-external-sider-hard-disk-drive
Cheers,
Nick.
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| Re: Getting a Sider hard drive working (question from another site) [message #353993 is a reply to message #330579] |
Sun, 08 October 2017 03:02  |
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Originally posted by: James Davis
On Monday, October 17, 2016 at 3:12:40 PM UTC-7, Nick Westgate wrote:
> Hi guys.
>
> Someone had this question, and although I found some info from old CSA2
> posts I thought I'd check if anyone knows any more. For instance how
> many Xebec controller cards where there, and did they just differ in
> firmware?
>
> "What should I look for in a controller card? I've read that the Sider
> was SASI (the forerunner of SCSI) and that the RamFAST card by
> Sequential Systems would be a good choice for a controller (assuming I
> can find one). I've also read that Apple produced a SCSI controller for
> the //e and //gs but I am uncertain if that card would work with a SASI
> drive (assuming the drive is SASI)."
>
> The original question and my current answer are here:
> http://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/questions/1582/how-t o-connect-an
> -apple-iie-to-an-external-sider-hard-disk-drive
>
> Cheers,
> Nick.
Hi Nick,
Just incase you're still interested in this year old inquiry:
The only difference between (FCP SIDER) SASI and (APPLE) SCSI that I could determine (back in the day when Apple adopted SCSI) was that the Data Bus lines [D0~D8] (output from the SASI interface card, input to the FCP SIDER HDD, e.g., the cable) were inverted polarities and all other address/signal polarities were the same. I determined this by comparing the SIDER schematics, and pin-outs, and all the documentation I could find about SASI (from Shugart Associates), with the corresponding SCSI (1.0/1.1?) Standard schematics, and pin-outs, and all the documentation I could find about SCSI.
The other thing about Terminal Power from GEO...s original webpage is also important. I think there was a switch on the interface card or jumper block on the back of the HDD that allowed it to be switched on or off.
Yours truly,
James Davis
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| Re: Getting a Sider hard drive working (question from another site) [message #354004 is a reply to message #353993] |
Sun, 08 October 2017 12:25 |
Steven Hirsch
Messages: 798
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 10/08/2017 03:02 AM, James Davis wrote:
> Hi Nick,
>
> Just incase you're still interested in this year old inquiry:
>
> The only difference between (FCP SIDER) SASI and (APPLE) SCSI that I could
> determine (back in the day when Apple adopted SCSI) was that the Data Bus
> lines [D0~D8] (output from the SASI interface card, input to the FCP SIDER
> HDD, e.g., the cable) were inverted polarities and all other address/signal
> polarities were the same. I determined this by comparing the SIDER
> schematics, and pin-outs, and all the documentation I could find about SASI
> (from Shugart Associates), with the corresponding SCSI (1.0/1.1?) Standard
> schematics, and pin-outs, and all the documentation I could find about
> SCSI.
I don't think that's correct. The original RamFAST card worked properly with
both SCSI and SASI drives. That would hardly have been the case if signal
polarity was inverted.
There probably were differences between SASI and SCSI with regard to minimum
required feature sets and control block definitions. But basic signaling? I
doubt it.
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| Re: Getting a Sider hard drive working (question from another site) [message #354008 is a reply to message #354004] |
Sun, 08 October 2017 13:53 |
Steven Hirsch
Messages: 798
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 10/08/2017 12:25 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote:
> On 10/08/2017 03:02 AM, James Davis wrote:
>
>> Hi Nick,
>>
>> Just incase you're still interested in this year old inquiry:
>>
>> The only difference between (FCP SIDER) SASI and (APPLE) SCSI that I could
>> determine (back in the day when Apple adopted SCSI) was that the Data Bus
>> lines [D0~D8] (output from the SASI interface card, input to the FCP SIDER
>> HDD, e.g., the cable) were inverted polarities and all other address/signal
>> polarities were the same. I determined this by comparing the SIDER
>> schematics, and pin-outs, and all the documentation I could find about SASI
>> (from Shugart Associates), with the corresponding SCSI (1.0/1.1?) Standard
>> schematics, and pin-outs, and all the documentation I could find about
>> SCSI.
>
> I don't think that's correct. The original RamFAST card worked properly with
> both SCSI and SASI drives. That would hardly have been the case if signal
> polarity was inverted.
>
> There probably were differences between SASI and SCSI with regard to minimum
> required feature sets and control block definitions. But basic signaling? I
> doubt it.
Another bit of evidence to the contrary: "Back in the day" I routinely used a
Sider / Xebec Apple 2 host adapter to communicate with SCSI drives.
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| Re: Getting a Sider hard drive working (question from another site) [message #354022 is a reply to message #354008] |
Sun, 08 October 2017 21:50 |
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Originally posted by: James Davis
On Sunday, October 8, 2017 at 10:53:29 AM UTC-7, Steven Hirsch wrote:
> On 10/08/2017 12:25 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote:
>> On 10/08/2017 03:02 AM, James Davis wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Nick,
>>>
>>> Just incase you're still interested in this year old inquiry:
>>>
>>> The only difference between (FCP SIDER) SASI and (APPLE) SCSI that I could
>>> determine (back in the day when Apple adopted SCSI) was that the Data Bus
>>> lines [D0~D8] (output from the SASI interface card, input to the FCP SIDER
>>> HDD, e.g., the cable) were inverted polarities and all other address/signal
>>> polarities were the same. I determined this by comparing the SIDER
>>> schematics, and pin-outs, and all the documentation I could find about SASI
>>> (from Shugart Associates), with the corresponding SCSI (1.0/1.1?) Standard
>>> schematics, and pin-outs, and all the documentation I could find about
>>> SCSI.
>>
>> I don't think that's correct. The original RamFAST card worked properly with
>> both SCSI and SASI drives. That would hardly have been the case if signal
>> polarity was inverted.
>>
>> There probably were differences between SASI and SCSI with regard to minimum
>> required feature sets and control block definitions. But basic signaling? I
>> doubt it.
>
> Another bit of evidence to the contrary: "Back in the day" I routinely used a
> Sider / Xebec Apple 2 host adapter to communicate with SCSI drives.
Hi Steven,
Well, all I can say is that according to the documentation that came with my FCP SIDER, its SASI interface Data Bus lines, compared with all the corresponding documentation I could find about SCSI, indicates they are inverted signal polarities. I never tested it though, with a multi-meter or any other SCSI drives/devices. I always wondered if it would work with SCSI drives/devices, but was never willing to try it out, after making my determination. I thought about making an inverter board, but never did. I did not want to fry anything.
I still have every Apple II related thing I ever bought or created (except that my original Apple II Plus and all the Lower Case Adapters I had have been sold; and, I shredded the source code for my AppleWorks TimeOut Ultramacros Disassembler a few years back, I think!). So, if you would like me to scan and send you copies of the pertinent documents, I will. Just reply privately to this if you want them.
I could have been mistaken, but I didn't think SASI and SCSI were identical at the time, IIRC!
Sincerely yours,
James Davis
P.S. I always wondered what kind of internal connection to the actual HDD inside the SIDER is. Do you know? Is it EIDE?
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| Re: Getting a Sider hard drive working (question from another site) [message #354033 is a reply to message #354022] |
Mon, 09 October 2017 07:43 |
Steven Hirsch
Messages: 798
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 10/08/2017 09:50 PM, James Davis wrote:
> Well, all I can say is that according to the documentation that came with
> my FCP SIDER, its SASI interface Data Bus lines, compared with all the
> corresponding documentation I could find about SCSI, indicates they are
> inverted signal polarities. I never tested it though, with a multi-meter
> or any other SCSI drives/devices. I always wondered if it would work with
> SCSI drives/devices, but was never willing to try it out, after making my
> determination. I thought about making an inverter board, but never did. I
> did not want to fry anything.
You can definitely talk to standard SCSI devices with the Xebec host adapter
card. Software is a different story and it's not a given that the Sider
software will work.
> I still have every Apple II related thing I ever bought or created (except
> that my original Apple II Plus and all the Lower Case Adapters I had have
> been sold; and, I shredded the source code for my AppleWorks TimeOut
> Ultramacros Disassembler a few years back, I think!). So, if you would
> like me to scan and send you copies of the pertinent documents, I will.
> Just reply privately to this if you want them.
>
> I could have been mistaken, but I didn't think SASI and SCSI were identical
> at the time, IIRC!
They are not identical, but the electrical signaling is compatible.
> P.S. I always wondered what kind of internal connection to the actual HDD
> inside the SIDER is. Do you know? Is it EIDE?
Yes. The Sider branded drives used a proprietary Xebec disk unit with
built-in SASI interface. The older (and larger) units sold under the Datamac
and Trustor brand names had a Xebec 1410 "bridge" controller that converted
the SASI bus to MFM. These used a variety of drives from other manufacturers.
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| Re: Getting a Sider hard drive working (question from another site) [message #354083 is a reply to message #354033] |
Mon, 09 October 2017 20:27 |
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Originally posted by: James Davis
On Monday, October 9, 2017 at 4:43:11 AM UTC-7, Steven Hirsch wrote:
> You can definitely talk to standard SCSI devices with the Xebec host adapter
> card. Software is a different story and it's not a given that the Sider
> software will work.
> . . .
> They are not identical, but the electrical signaling is compatible.
I wonder if a PC could be hooked up on the opposite end of the Apple-SASI/Sider/~/SCSI-PC chain and used to read the data off the Sider?
>> P.S. I always wondered what kind of internal connection to the actual HDD
>> inside the SIDER is. Do you know? Is it EIDE?
>
> Yes. The Sider branded drives used a proprietary Xebec disk unit with
> built-in SASI interface. The older (and larger) units sold under the Datamac
> and Trustor brand names had a Xebec 1410 "bridge" controller that converted
> the SASI bus to MFM. These used a variety of drives from other manufacturers.
So, it is not EIDE then?!
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| Re: Getting a Sider hard drive working (question from another site) [message #354118 is a reply to message #354083] |
Tue, 10 October 2017 07:39 |
mrbrad
Messages: 85
Registered: January 2013
Karma: 0
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Member |
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On 10/9/2017 7:27 PM, James Davis wrote:
> On Monday, October 9, 2017 at 4:43:11 AM UTC-7, Steven Hirsch wrote:
>> You can definitely talk to standard SCSI devices with the Xebec host adapter
>> card. Software is a different story and it's not a given that the Sider
>> software will work.
>> . . .
>> They are not identical, but the electrical signaling is compatible.
>
> I wonder if a PC could be hooked up on the opposite end of the Apple-SASI/Sider/~/SCSI-PC chain and used to read the data off the Sider?
>
>>> P.S. I always wondered what kind of internal connection to the actual HDD
>>> inside the SIDER is. Do you know? Is it EIDE?
>>
>> Yes. The Sider branded drives used a proprietary Xebec disk unit with
>> built-in SASI interface. The older (and larger) units sold under the Datamac
>> and Trustor brand names had a Xebec 1410 "bridge" controller that converted
>> the SASI bus to MFM. These used a variety of drives from other manufacturers.
>
> So, it is not EIDE then?!
>
The sider's I have are mfm drives ..i forget which seagate 20mb or 10mb
ones I think....st-??
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| Re: Getting a Sider hard drive working (question from another site) [message #354129 is a reply to message #354083] |
Tue, 10 October 2017 07:53 |
Steven Hirsch
Messages: 798
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 10/09/2017 08:27 PM, James Davis wrote:
>>> P.S. I always wondered what kind of internal connection to the actual HDD
>>> inside the SIDER is. Do you know? Is it EIDE?
>>
>> Yes. The Sider branded drives used a proprietary Xebec disk unit with
>> built-in SASI interface. The older (and larger) units sold under the Datamac
>> and Trustor brand names had a Xebec 1410 "bridge" controller that converted
>> the SASI bus to MFM. These used a variety of drives from other manufacturers.
>
> So, it is not EIDE then?!
No, it predates IDE by ten years or more. Originally they bridged to a
standard (for early 80s) MFM drive. Later on they developed their own drive
with an integrated SASI interface. I think it was the Xebec "Owl" drive.
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| Re: Getting a Sider hard drive working (question from another site) [message #354259 is a reply to message #354118] |
Thu, 12 October 2017 02:27 |
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Originally posted by: Brian Patrie
On 2017-10-10 06:39, mrbrad wrote:
> On 10/9/2017 7:27 PM, James Davis wrote:
>> On Monday, October 9, 2017 at 4:43:11 AM UTC-7, Steven Hirsch wrote:
>>> The Sider branded drives used a proprietary Xebec disk unit with
>>> built-in SASI interface. The older (and larger) units sold under the
>>> Datamac and Trustor brand names had a Xebec 1410 "bridge" controller
>>> that converted the SASI bus to MFM. These used a variety of drives
>>> from other manufacturers.
>>
>> So, it is not EIDE then?!
>
> The sider's I have are mfm drives ..i forget which seagate 20mb or 10mb
> ones I think....st-??
Mine is a Xebec 4020 (SASI).
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| Re: Getting a Sider hard drive working (question from another site) [message #354272 is a reply to message #354259] |
Thu, 12 October 2017 09:49 |
mrbrad
Messages: 85
Registered: January 2013
Karma: 0
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On 10/12/2017 1:27 AM, Brian Patrie wrote:
> On 2017-10-10 06:39, mrbrad wrote:
>> On 10/9/2017 7:27 PM, James Davis wrote:
>>> On Monday, October 9, 2017 at 4:43:11 AM UTC-7, Steven Hirsch wrote:
>>>> The Sider branded drives used a proprietary Xebec disk unit with
>>>> built-in SASI interface. The older (and larger) units sold under
>>>> the Datamac and Trustor brand names had a Xebec 1410 "bridge"
>>>> controller that converted the SASI bus to MFM. These used a variety
>>>> of drives
>>>> from other manufacturers.
>>>
>>> So, it is not EIDE then?!
>>
>> The sider's I have are mfm drives ..i forget which seagate 20mb or
>> 10mb ones I think....st-??
> Mine is a Xebec 4020 (SASI).
Again if I remember right the HD is mfm ...the controller on is is
sasi...thus if you ever replace the HD and use the controller I heard
that you needed to format the HD first with a xebec on an IBM with the
xebec Ibm controller ..then you could format using sider utils at that point
I could be dead wrong on this .did not have to ever replace a hd in this
manner...and this could be for the old xebec data mac's or sider 10mb
but for whatever reason it stuck in my head
others likely on here will probably know more
brad
former sysop lost gonzo bbs
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| Re: Getting a Sider hard drive working (question from another site) [message #354345 is a reply to message #354272] |
Fri, 13 October 2017 11:47 |
Steven Hirsch
Messages: 798
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 10/12/2017 09:49 AM, mrbrad wrote:
> On 10/12/2017 1:27 AM, Brian Patrie wrote:
>> On 2017-10-10 06:39, mrbrad wrote:
>>> On 10/9/2017 7:27 PM, James Davis wrote:
>>>> On Monday, October 9, 2017 at 4:43:11 AM UTC-7, Steven Hirsch wrote:
>>>> > The Sider branded drives used a proprietary Xebec disk unit with
>>>> > built-in SASI interface. The older (and larger) units sold under the
>>>> > Datamac and Trustor brand names had a Xebec 1410 "bridge" controller that
>>>> > converted the SASI bus to MFM. These used a variety of drives
>>>> > from other manufacturers.
>>>>
>>>> So, it is not EIDE then?!
>>>
>>> The sider's I have are mfm drives ..i forget which seagate 20mb or 10mb
>>> ones I think....st-??
>> Mine is a Xebec 4020 (SASI).
That's what was in my Sider.
> Again if I remember right the HD is mfm ...the controller on is is sasi...thus
> if you ever replace the HD and use the controller I heard
> that you needed to format the HD first with a xebec on an IBM with the
> xebec Ibm controller ..then you could format using sider utils at that point
Only the older, non-Sider branded drives (sold as Datamac, Trustor and a few
other brand names) were MFM + bridge controller. The Sider had very little
room inside and every one I've seen had a Xebec drive with integrated SASI bus.
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| Re: Getting a Sider hard drive working (question from another site) [message #356294 is a reply to message #354008] |
Wed, 01 November 2017 04:10 |
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Originally posted by: James Davis
On Sunday, October 8, 2017 at 10:53:29 AM UTC-7, Steven Hirsch wrote:
> "Back in the day" I routinely used a Sider / Xebec Apple 2 host adapter to communicate with SCSI drives.
Hi Steven,
Do you think the "SCSI2SD" card will work with or on the end of (terminating) an FCP Sider SASI chain (using the Sider Apple 2 host adapter)?
Could one be used to first duplicate and then replace a Sider HDD?
James Davis
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| Re: Getting a Sider hard drive working (question from another site) [message #356298 is a reply to message #356294] |
Wed, 01 November 2017 08:01 |
Steven Hirsch
Messages: 798
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 11/01/2017 04:10 AM, James Davis wrote:
> On Sunday, October 8, 2017 at 10:53:29 AM UTC-7, Steven Hirsch wrote:
>> "Back in the day" I routinely used a Sider / Xebec Apple 2 host adapter
>> to communicate with SCSI drives.
> Do you think the "SCSI2SD" card will work with or on the end of
> (terminating) an FCP Sider SASI chain (using the Sider Apple 2 host
> adapter)?
>
> Could one be used to first duplicate and then replace a Sider HDD?
That's questionable, since the FCP driver is written for SASI. There are some
minor behavioral differences with regard to bus timing and phase changes. I
think you'd just have to try it and see.
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| Re: Getting a Sider hard drive working (question from another site) [message #356414 is a reply to message #356298] |
Wed, 01 November 2017 20:25 |
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Originally posted by: James Davis
On Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 5:01:17 AM UTC-7, Steven Hirsch wrote:
> On 11/01/2017 04:10 AM, James Davis wrote:
>> On Sunday, October 8, 2017 at 10:53:29 AM UTC-7, Steven Hirsch wrote:
>>> "Back in the day" I routinely used a Sider / Xebec Apple 2 host adapter
>>> to communicate with SCSI drives.
>
>> Do you think the "SCSI2SD" card will work with or on the end of
>> (terminating) an FCP Sider SASI chain (using the Sider Apple 2 host
>> adapter)?
>>
>> Could one be used to first duplicate and then replace a Sider HDD?
>
> That's questionable, since the FCP driver is written for SASI. There are some
> minor behavioral differences with regard to bus timing and phase changes. I
> think you'd just have to try it and see.
Hi Steven,
I have been in contact with the maker of the SCSI2SD card about this too, and have sent him a lot of information about my FCP Sider (D4T HDD and T6 Tape Backup) System. Hopefully, he will be able to put it to use in future SCSI2SD versions.
It turns out that the only difference in the pin-out of my Sider SASI Host Adapter card and the SCSI standard (circa 1988) is that the SASI signals {where "!" means "negative"} !C/D (IDC-50 pin 46, DB-25 pin 15) and !I/O (IDC-50 pin 50, DB-25 pin 3) are opposite of the SCSI signals C/!D and I/!O; All other SASI signals are the same polarity as SCSI.
So my memory (see IIRC above) was wrong. It is not the data lines that are opposite in polarity.
I don't know about the software and protocols, though. There could be big differences there. Or not.
James Davis
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