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AppleWin 1.26.0 (pre-release) [message #328833] Mon, 19 September 2016 17:44 Go to next message
TomCh is currently offline  TomCh
Messages: 188
Registered: November 2012
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Hi,

There's a new pre-release of AppleWin 1.26.0 here:
https://github.com/AppleWin/AppleWin/releases/tag/v1.26.0.3

The main changes are:

- Beta NTSC support
. TV Color, TV B&W, Monitor Color, Monitor B&W
- Full-screen native resolution (no longer 640x480 resolution)
- Save-state file v2: human readable (Yaml-based format)
. All hardware configurations save/restored:
. Apple model, sub-systems, memory, cards (except Uthernet and SAM cards)
. Old v1 .aws file format still loaded
- Added SAM/DAC sound card support
- AppleWin built with VS2008 Express (supports Windows 2000 or later)


We are tagging this release as "beta" as there are big changes in these 3 areas (in order of severity):

- NTSC video rendering
- Full-screen native (not 640x480 resolution)
- Save-state is now yaml format

Although there's been a reasonable level of developer testing over the past months, the extent of the changes could mean that there are some edge-cases affecting stability or leading to regressions.

Please report any issues you find either here (in cea2) or raise a bug here:
https://github.com/AppleWin/AppleWin/issues/new

btw. the NTSC support is based on Sheldon's work from 2011 - thanks Sheldon, we finally got there! :)

Tom
Re: AppleWin 1.26.0 (pre-release) [message #328839 is a reply to message #328833] Mon, 19 September 2016 23:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gids.rs is currently offline  gids.rs
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Registered: October 2012
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Senior Member
On Monday, September 19, 2016 at 3:44:43 PM UTC-6, TomCh wrote:
> Hi,
>
> There's a new pre-release of AppleWin 1.26.0 here:
> https://github.com/AppleWin/AppleWin/releases/tag/v1.26.0.3
>
> The main changes are:
>
> - Beta NTSC support
> . TV Color, TV B&W, Monitor Color, Monitor B&W
> - Full-screen native resolution (no longer 640x480 resolution)
> - Save-state file v2: human readable (Yaml-based format)
> . All hardware configurations save/restored:
> . Apple model, sub-systems, memory, cards (except Uthernet and SAM cards)
> . Old v1 .aws file format still loaded
> - Added SAM/DAC sound card support
> - AppleWin built with VS2008 Express (supports Windows 2000 or later)
>
>
> We are tagging this release as "beta" as there are big changes in these 3 areas (in order of severity):
>
> - NTSC video rendering
> - Full-screen native (not 640x480 resolution)
> - Save-state is now yaml format
>
> Although there's been a reasonable level of developer testing over the past months, the extent of the changes could mean that there are some edge-cases affecting stability or leading to regressions.
>
> Please report any issues you find either here (in cea2) or raise a bug here:
> https://github.com/AppleWin/AppleWin/issues/new
>
> btw. the NTSC support is based on Sheldon's work from 2011 - thanks Sheldon, we finally got there! :)
>
> Tom


Where can I send a couple of pictures to have a better color palette inserted for double hi-res, or is there a way to load my color palette into Applewin?

Rob
Re: AppleWin 1.26.0 (pre-release) [message #328840 is a reply to message #328833] Mon, 19 September 2016 23:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Brian Patrie

On 2016-09-19 16:44, TomCh wrote:
> There's a new pre-release of AppleWin 1.26.0 here:
> https://github.com/AppleWin/AppleWin/releases/tag/v1.26.0.3
>
> The main changes are:
>
> - Beta NTSC support
> . TV Color, TV B&W, Monitor Color, Monitor B&W
> - Full-screen native resolution (no longer 640x480 resolution)
> - Save-state file v2: human readable (Yaml-based format)
> . All hardware configurations save/restored:
> . Apple model, sub-systems, memory, cards (except Uthernet and
> SAM cards)
> . Old v1 .aws file format still loaded
> - Added SAM/DAC sound card support
> - AppleWin built with VS2008 Express (supports Windows 2000 or later)
>
> We are tagging this release as "beta" as there are big changes in
> these 3 areas (in order of severity):
>
> - NTSC video rendering
> - Full-screen native (not 640x480 resolution)
> - Save-state is now yaml format
>
> Although there's been a reasonable level of developer testing over the
> past months, the extent of the changes could mean that there are some
> edge-cases affecting stability or leading to regressions.
>
> Please report any issues you find either here (in cea2) or
> raise a bug here:
> https://github.com/AppleWin/AppleWin/issues/new
>
> btw. the NTSC support is based on Sheldon's work from 2011 -
> thanks Sheldon, we finally got there! :)

(Under Wine 1.6.2 on a 2.4 GHz dual core i5)
full speed is much slower than it was with 1.25.0.3.

Definitely digging the new full screen mode. :)
(The old way made a mess under Wine.)

--
Brian
Re: AppleWin 1.26.0 (pre-release) [message #328841 is a reply to message #328833] Tue, 20 September 2016 00:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Steve Nickolas is currently offline  Steve Nickolas
Messages: 1884
Registered: October 2012
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Senior Member
On Mon, 19 Sep 2016, TomCh wrote:

> - Beta NTSC support
> . TV Color, TV B&W, Monitor Color, Monitor B&W

If I miss something, it's a "normal-ish" mode that blends color in
graphics modes, but still shows clear text in text modes.

With the current version, I either get blended color and blurry,
headache-inducing text (even in text mode), or sharp text and unblended
color.

-uso.
Re: AppleWin 1.26.0 (pre-release) [message #328845 is a reply to message #328833] Tue, 20 September 2016 01:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tom Greene is currently offline  Tom Greene
Messages: 20
Registered: January 2013
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Junior Member
On Monday, September 19, 2016 at 5:44:43 PM UTC-4, TomCh wrote:
> Hi,
>
> There's a new pre-release of AppleWin 1.26.0 here:
> https://github.com/AppleWin/AppleWin/releases/tag/v1.26.0.3
>
> The main changes are:
>
> - Beta NTSC support
> . TV Color, TV B&W, Monitor Color, Monitor B&W
> - Full-screen native resolution (no longer 640x480 resolution)
> - Save-state file v2: human readable (Yaml-based format)
> . All hardware configurations save/restored:
> . Apple model, sub-systems, memory, cards (except Uthernet and SAM cards)
> . Old v1 .aws file format still loaded
> - Added SAM/DAC sound card support
> - AppleWin built with VS2008 Express (supports Windows 2000 or later)
>
>
> We are tagging this release as "beta" as there are big changes in these 3 areas (in order of severity):
>
> - NTSC video rendering
> - Full-screen native (not 640x480 resolution)
> - Save-state is now yaml format
>
> Although there's been a reasonable level of developer testing over the past months, the extent of the changes could mean that there are some edge-cases affecting stability or leading to regressions.
>
> Please report any issues you find either here (in cea2) or raise a bug here:
> https://github.com/AppleWin/AppleWin/issues/new
>
> btw. the NTSC support is based on Sheldon's work from 2011 - thanks Sheldon, we finally got there! :)
>
> Tom

Found a small issue, seems that ticking or unticking the "50% Scan lines" box does not take effect unless the video mode is also changed.

Tom
Re: AppleWin 1.26.0 (pre-release) [message #328846 is a reply to message #328845] Tue, 20 September 2016 03:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Brian Patrie

On 2016-09-20 00:49, Tom Greene wrote:
> On Monday, September 19, 2016 at 5:44:43 PM UTC-4, TomCh wrote:
[...]
>> There's a new pre-release of AppleWin 1.26.0 here:
>> https://github.com/AppleWin/AppleWin/releases/tag/v1.26.0.3
[...]
> Found a small issue, seems that ticking or unticking the
> "50% Scan lines" box does not take effect unless the
> video mode is also changed.

Also observed here. Meanwhile, shift-ctrl-F9 works fine.

--
Brian
Re: AppleWin 1.26.0 (pre-release) [message #328855 is a reply to message #328839] Tue, 20 September 2016 10:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michael AppleWin Debu is currently offline  Michael AppleWin Debu
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On Monday, September 19, 2016 at 8:44:31 PM UTC-7, gid...@sasktel.net wrote:
> Where can I send a couple of pictures to have a better color palette inserted for double hi-res, or is there a way to load my color palette into Applewin?

There is!

You can change the palette on the fly however:

* You need to use the new debugger commands: NTSC

It has 3 options:

LOAD filename - to load in either BMP or raw format,
RESET filename - to reset the NTSC back to "stock",
SAVE filename - to save in either BMP or raw format.

i.e.

NTSC RESET
NTSC SAVE ntsc.bmp
NTSC LOAD ntsc.bmp

You can also save/load in raw format but the color order isn't obvious.

For importing into GIMP:

NTSC SAVE ntsc.data
NTSC LOAD ntsc.data

For importing into Photoshop:

NTSC SAVE ntsc.raw
NTSC LOAD ntsc.raw

The raw files are identical -- only the extension is different (Blame GIMP for being different from Photoshop)

* The palette is no longer 16 colors but (in BMP format) 64x256 = 16,384 due to the blending of the 4-phases of NTSC.

I have a demo webpage of a custom palette -- scroll down to the very bottom of:
http://michael.peopleofhonoronly.com/dev/applewin/ntsc/

Someday I hope to be able to allow the user select any 16-colors they wish and the remaining colors would be auto-generated. Regrettably, that didn't make it in -- I would need to spend significantly more time in understanding how Sheldon is generating 4 phase color from the bit pattern -- everything is currently hard-coded.

Hope this helps!
Re: AppleWin 1.26.0 (pre-release) [message #328856 is a reply to message #328840] Tue, 20 September 2016 10:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michael AppleWin Debu is currently offline  Michael AppleWin Debu
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Registered: March 2013
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On Monday, September 19, 2016 at 8:56:44 PM UTC-7, Brian Patrie wrote:
> (Under Wine 1.6.2 on a 2.4 GHz dual core i5)
> full speed is much slower than it was with 1.25.0.3.

1. We definitely took a performance hit due to the new rendering code in order to allow for mid-scanline mode switching.

We had to chose between:

* Fast and inaccurate (v1.25) or
* Slower and accurate (v1.26)

100% emulation prioritizes correctness over speed.

Unfortunately I can't give you an exact percentage of how much of a speed hit we took.

2. Do you have a repo for this case please? It might be possible you're running into a bug. At least we could verify and see first-hand what the delta timings you are running into.


> Definitely digging the new full screen mode. :)
> (The old way made a mess under Wine.)

I finally got around to installing Wine on my MacBookPro. I like Sheldon's full-screen mode too. :-)
Re: AppleWin 1.26.0 (pre-release) [message #328864 is a reply to message #328846] Tue, 20 September 2016 13:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TomCh is currently offline  TomCh
Messages: 188
Registered: November 2012
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Senior Member
On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 8:02:26 AM UTC+1, Brian Patrie wrote:
> On 2016-09-20 00:49, Tom Greene wrote:
>> On Monday, September 19, 2016 at 5:44:43 PM UTC-4, TomCh wrote:
> [...]
>>> There's a new pre-release of AppleWin 1.26.0 here:
>>> https://github.com/AppleWin/AppleWin/releases/tag/v1.26.0.3
> [...]
>> Found a small issue, seems that ticking or unticking the
>> "50% Scan lines" box does not take effect unless the
>> video mode is also changed.
>
> Also observed here. Meanwhile, shift-ctrl-F9 works fine.
>
> --
> Brian

Thanks Tom, Brian. I've raised a new issue:
https://github.com/AppleWin/AppleWin/issues/350
Re: AppleWin 1.26.0 (pre-release) [message #328865 is a reply to message #328841] Tue, 20 September 2016 13:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TomCh is currently offline  TomCh
Messages: 188
Registered: November 2012
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Senior Member
On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 5:14:44 AM UTC+1, Steve Nickolas wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Sep 2016, TomCh wrote:
>
>> - Beta NTSC support
>> . TV Color, TV B&W, Monitor Color, Monitor B&W
>
> If I miss something, it's a "normal-ish" mode that blends color in
> graphics modes, but still shows clear text in text modes.
>
> With the current version, I either get blended color and blurry,
> headache-inducing text (even in text mode), or sharp text and unblended
> color.
>
> -uso.

Hi Steve,
We have this regression tracked here:
https://github.com/AppleWin/AppleWin/issues/344
Re: AppleWin 1.26.0 (pre-release) [message #328879 is a reply to message #328856] Tue, 20 September 2016 15:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Brian Patrie

On 2016-09-20 09:38, Michael AppleWin Debugger Dev wrote:
> On Monday, September 19, 2016 at 8:56:44 PM UTC-7, Brian Patrie wrote:
>> (Under Wine 1.6.2 on a 2.4 GHz dual core i5)
>> full speed is much slower than it was with 1.25.0.3.
>
> 1. We definitely took a performance hit due to the new rendering
> code in order to allow for mid-scanline mode switching.
>
> We had to chose between:
>
> * Fast and inaccurate (v1.25) or
> * Slower and accurate (v1.26)
>
> 100% emulation prioritizes correctness over speed.
>
> Unfortunately I can't give you an exact percentage of
> how much of a speed hit we took.
>
> 2. Do you have a repo for this case please? It might be possible
> you're running into a bug. At least we could verify and see
> first-hand what the delta timings you are running into.

You mean a git repo? Unfortunately, i haven't gotten around to learning
how to use git (or any other VCS, for that matter. [Hangs head in shame.]

I suppose i should have included that i'm running Wine under Linux Mint
17.3.

In another, perhaps more addressable, corner: the up, down, and delete
keys in the Pravets 82 & 8M emulation are generating cr, /, and nothing
respectively. Granted, as II+ clones, those keys might be irrelevant;
but those are kinda bizarre bindings. And the 8M has a superfluous dot
lit on the ] character.

Golly betas are fun! ;)

Oooh, i just noticed that pause actually gives the CPU a break, now,
as does the debugger. Nice! :)

--
Brian
Re: AppleWin 1.26.0 (pre-release) [message #328880 is a reply to message #328879] Tue, 20 September 2016 15:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michael AppleWin Debu is currently offline  Michael AppleWin Debu
Messages: 1176
Registered: March 2013
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Senior Member
On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 12:11:16 PM UTC-7, Brian Patrie wrote:
>> 2. Do you have a repo for this case please? It might be possible
>> you're running into a bug. At least we could verify and see
>> first-hand what the delta timings you are running into.
>
> You mean a git repo?

Guess that will teach me not to abbreviate ambiguous words

Sorry, no, reproducible.

i.e.
What disk image(s) are you using?
How did you notice the slowdown in AppleWin 1.26 compared to AppleWin 1.25 ?

You mentioned you're running Wine on Linux Mint. I finally got around to install Wine on my MackBookPro so maybe there the problem will show up there too -- once I have some more detailed information so can reproduce it. I also have an Ubuntu 12.04 LTS -- I'll try to get Wine installed on that too..

> Unfortunately, i haven't gotten around to learning
> how to use git (or any other VCS, for that matter. [Hangs head in shame.]

No worries, we won't judge you (too harshly.) :-)

Seriously though, everyone was a git noob at one point so don't feel bad. Git's learning curve can be a little steep!

If you haven't needed VCS then you haven't needed it.

OT, but here is a quick git tutorial.

# do this once to initialize your _local_ repository
git init

# and then for every change log, you add files and commit to the your local repository:
git add foo
git add bar
git add quz
git commit -m "Added foo, bar, and quz"

GitHub makes git easy to setup. When you make a new _remote_ repository it tells you the 2 command lines you need to run locally to point your local repository to the mater remote one.

i.e.
git remote add origin https://github.com/user/repo/
git push -u origin master

And then you use push, add+commit, pull.

git pull

git add foo
git commit -m "Updated foo"

git push

This tutorial will take care of 95% of your git workflow to start with.
Re: AppleWin 1.26.0 (pre-release) [message #328888 is a reply to message #328879] Tue, 20 September 2016 15:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Brian Patrie

On 2016-09-20 14:11, Brian Patrie wrote:
> In another, perhaps more addressable, corner: the up, down, and delete
> keys in the Pravets 82 & 8M emulation are generating cr, /, and nothing
> respectively. Granted, as II+ clones, those keys might be irrelevant;
> but those are kinda bizarre bindings.

Oops. The II+ emu does this too, and does on 1.25.0.3,
but the Pravetses don't on 1.25.0.3.
Re: AppleWin 1.26.0 (pre-release) [message #328889 is a reply to message #328880] Tue, 20 September 2016 16:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Brian Patrie

On 2016-09-20 14:43, Michael AppleWin Debugger Dev wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 12:11:16 PM UTC-7, Brian Patrie wrote:
>>> 2. Do you have a repo for this case please? It might be possible
>>> you're running into a bug. At least we could verify and see
>>> first-hand what the delta timings you are running into.
>>
>> You mean a git repo?
>
> Guess that will teach me not to abbreviate ambiguous words
>
> Sorry, no, reproducible.
>
> i.e.
> What disk image(s) are you using?
> How did you notice the slowdown in AppleWin 1.26 compared to AppleWin 1.25 ?

Ah, of course. And i've been up too long. ;)

Where i really notice it is in this rather crude ProDOS filesystem
browser (i hesitate to call it a file manager, as can't even copy files)
that i wrote in BASIC. I can throw in on an image and dropbox it if
need be. But it's also noticeable in a long BASIC listing--especially
in double-size/full-screen, where it's barely faster than 1 MHz mode.

It's worth noting that most--if not all--Windows apps are considerably
slower under Wine than under Windows. It would probably take a much
slower host machine for this issue to be noticable under real live
Windows. (Unfortunately it is impractical, atm, for me to test that.)
Re: AppleWin 1.26.0 (pre-release) [message #328905 is a reply to message #328840] Tue, 20 September 2016 22:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sicklittlemonkey is currently offline  sicklittlemonkey
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Registered: October 2012
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On Tuesday, 20 September 2016 15:56:44 UTC+12, Brian Patrie wrote:
> (Under Wine 1.6.2 on a 2.4 GHz dual core i5)
> full speed is much slower than it was with 1.25.0.3.

1.26 currently calls StretchBlt more than 1.25.

If that's not hardware accelerated in your environment it be a lot slower.

Cheers,
Nick.
Re: AppleWin 1.26.0 (pre-release) [message #328906 is a reply to message #328880] Tue, 20 September 2016 23:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gids.rs is currently offline  gids.rs
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> How did you notice the slowdown in AppleWin 1.26 compared to AppleWin 1.25 ?


I noticed a really big hit on speed when running my slideshow of double hi-res graphics. Full blast speed in v1.26 is about the same speed as 4 Mhz in v1.25.

Ouch!
Re: AppleWin 1.26.0 (pre-release) [message #328938 is a reply to message #328906] Wed, 21 September 2016 15:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TomCh is currently offline  TomCh
Messages: 188
Registered: November 2012
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Senior Member
On Wednesday, September 21, 2016 at 4:41:31 AM UTC+1, gid...@sasktel.net wrote:
>> How did you notice the slowdown in AppleWin 1.26 compared to AppleWin 1.25 ?
>
>
> I noticed a really big hit on speed when running my slideshow of double hi-res graphics. Full blast speed in v1.26 is about the same speed as 4 Mhz in v1.25.
>
> Ouch!

Not great, but if we can have a reproducible (eg. upload the .dsk to Dropbox or email it to me), then we are keen to investigate and try to optimise things.

Also some details about your Windows OS and CPU type/speed would be useful.

Tom
Re: AppleWin 1.26.0 (pre-release) [message #328939 is a reply to message #328841] Wed, 21 September 2016 15:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TomCh is currently offline  TomCh
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Registered: November 2012
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On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 5:14:44 AM UTC+1, Steve Nickolas wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Sep 2016, TomCh wrote:
>
>> - Beta NTSC support
>> . TV Color, TV B&W, Monitor Color, Monitor B&W
>
> If I miss something, it's a "normal-ish" mode that blends color in
> graphics modes, but still shows clear text in text modes.
>
> With the current version, I either get blended color and blurry,
> headache-inducing text (even in text mode), or sharp text and unblended
> color.
>
> -uso.

Hi Steve,

This "Color (text optimized)" mode was one that got removed. I don't have any plans to re-instate it (preferring accuracy over image-enhancements) - but maybe the other AppleWin devs think differently.

Does anyone else miss this?
Please raise a github issue if you feel strongly enough.

Thanks for your feedback,
Tom
Re: AppleWin 1.26.0 (pre-release) [message #328943 is a reply to message #328889] Wed, 21 September 2016 16:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TomCh is currently offline  TomCh
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On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 9:36:35 PM UTC+1, Brian Patrie wrote:
> On 2016-09-20 14:43, Michael AppleWin Debugger Dev wrote:
>> On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 12:11:16 PM UTC-7, Brian Patrie wrote:
>>>> 2. Do you have a repo for this case please? It might be possible
>>>> you're running into a bug. At least we could verify and see
>>>> first-hand what the delta timings you are running into.
>>>
>>> You mean a git repo?
>>
>> Guess that will teach me not to abbreviate ambiguous words
>>
>> Sorry, no, reproducible.
>>
>> i.e.
>> What disk image(s) are you using?
>> How did you notice the slowdown in AppleWin 1.26 compared to AppleWin 1.25 ?
>
> Ah, of course. And i've been up too long. ;)
>
> Where i really notice it is in this rather crude ProDOS filesystem
> browser (i hesitate to call it a file manager, as can't even copy files)
> that i wrote in BASIC. I can throw in on an image and dropbox it if
> need be. But it's also noticeable in a long BASIC listing--especially
> in double-size/full-screen, where it's barely faster than 1 MHz mode.
>
> It's worth noting that most--if not all--Windows apps are considerably
> slower under Wine than under Windows. It would probably take a much
> slower host machine for this issue to be noticable under real live
> Windows. (Unfortunately it is impractical, atm, for me to test that.)

Hi Brian,

With the 'long BASIC listing' it is easy to reproduce... although I get ~10MHz at full-speed (v1.26.0.3).

FWIW, the AppleWin benchmark rates "Pure CPU MHz" as:
.. 1.25.0.4: 172 MHz
.. 1.26.0.3: 12 MHz

As stated elsewhere on this thread, the video generation is much more CPU intensive, so full-speed will now run slower.

Can you explain your use-case(s) for full-speed?

EG. Full-speed automatically kicks in when the disk drive is on. Resulting in faster loading. We have already looked at this case and done a bit of work to optimise this.

Tom
Re: AppleWin 1.26.0 (pre-release) [message #328944 is a reply to message #328939] Wed, 21 September 2016 16:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michael AppleWin Debu is currently offline  Michael AppleWin Debu
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On Wednesday, September 21, 2016 at 12:41:58 PM UTC-7, TomCh wrote:
> This "Color (text optimized)" mode was one that got removed. I don't have any plans to re-instate it (preferring accuracy over image-enhancements) - but maybe the other AppleWin devs think differently.
>
> Does anyone else miss this?
> Please raise a github issue if you feel strongly enough.

There is an existing discussion here if anyone wants to lend their thoughts.

Color TV (NTSC) video mode not doing vertical color bleeding
https://github.com/AppleWin/AppleWin/issues/344
Re: AppleWin 1.26.0 (pre-release) [message #328945 is a reply to message #328939] Wed, 21 September 2016 17:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michael J. Mahon is currently offline  Michael J. Mahon
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Senior Member
TomCh <tomcharlesworth26@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 5:14:44 AM UTC+1, Steve Nickolas wrote:
>> On Mon, 19 Sep 2016, TomCh wrote:
>>
>>> - Beta NTSC support
>>> . TV Color, TV B&W, Monitor Color, Monitor B&W
>>
>> If I miss something, it's a "normal-ish" mode that blends color in
>> graphics modes, but still shows clear text in text modes.
>>
>> With the current version, I either get blended color and blurry,
>> headache-inducing text (even in text mode), or sharp text and unblended
>> color.
>>
>> -uso.
>
> Hi Steve,
>
> This "Color (text optimized)" mode was one that got removed. I don't have
> any plans to re-instate it (preferring accuracy over image-enhancements)
> - but maybe the other AppleWin devs think differently.
>
> Does anyone else miss this?
> Please raise a github issue if you feel strongly enough.
>
> Thanks for your feedback,
> Tom
>

As a developer who occasionally uses graphics, I appreciate the rendering
fidelity for graphics, but it's a bother for text editing and viewing,
where content is important and "faithful fringing" is not useful.

I guess the solution is to switch display modes as needed.
--
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com
Re: AppleWin 1.26.0 (pre-release) [message #328948 is a reply to message #328945] Wed, 21 September 2016 17:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Steve Nickolas is currently offline  Steve Nickolas
Messages: 1884
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Wed, 21 Sep 2016, Michael J. Mahon wrote:

> TomCh <tomcharlesworth26@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 5:14:44 AM UTC+1, Steve Nickolas wrote:
>>> On Mon, 19 Sep 2016, TomCh wrote:
>>>
>>>> - Beta NTSC support
>>>> . TV Color, TV B&W, Monitor Color, Monitor B&W
>>>
>>> If I miss something, it's a "normal-ish" mode that blends color in
>>> graphics modes, but still shows clear text in text modes.
>>>
>>> With the current version, I either get blended color and blurry,
>>> headache-inducing text (even in text mode), or sharp text and unblended
>>> color.
>>>
>>> -uso.
>>
>> Hi Steve,
>>
>> This "Color (text optimized)" mode was one that got removed. I don't have
>> any plans to re-instate it (preferring accuracy over image-enhancements)
>> - but maybe the other AppleWin devs think differently.
>>
>> Does anyone else miss this?
>> Please raise a github issue if you feel strongly enough.
>>
>> Thanks for your feedback,
>> Tom
>>
>
> As a developer who occasionally uses graphics, I appreciate the rendering
> fidelity for graphics, but it's a bother for text editing and viewing,
> where content is important and "faithful fringing" is not useful.
>
> I guess the solution is to switch display modes as needed.
>

It's certainly never useful in pure text mode, IMHO.

-uso.
Re: AppleWin 1.26.0 (pre-release) [message #328952 is a reply to message #328948] Wed, 21 September 2016 20:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michael J. Mahon is currently offline  Michael J. Mahon
Messages: 1671
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Steve Nickolas <usotsuki@buric.co> wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Sep 2016, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
>
>> TomCh <tomcharlesworth26@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 5:14:44 AM UTC+1, Steve Nickolas wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 19 Sep 2016, TomCh wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > - Beta NTSC support
>>>> > . TV Color, TV B&W, Monitor Color, Monitor B&W
>>>>
>>>> If I miss something, it's a "normal-ish" mode that blends color in
>>>> graphics modes, but still shows clear text in text modes.
>>>>
>>>> With the current version, I either get blended color and blurry,
>>>> headache-inducing text (even in text mode), or sharp text and unblended
>>>> color.
>>>>
>>>> -uso.
>>>
>>> Hi Steve,
>>>
>>> This "Color (text optimized)" mode was one that got removed. I don't have
>>> any plans to re-instate it (preferring accuracy over image-enhancements)
>>> - but maybe the other AppleWin devs think differently.
>>>
>>> Does anyone else miss this?
>>> Please raise a github issue if you feel strongly enough.
>>>
>>> Thanks for your feedback,
>>> Tom
>>>
>>
>> As a developer who occasionally uses graphics, I appreciate the rendering
>> fidelity for graphics, but it's a bother for text editing and viewing,
>> where content is important and "faithful fringing" is not useful.
>>
>> I guess the solution is to switch display modes as needed.
>>
>
> It's certainly never useful in pure text mode, IMHO.
>
> -uso.
>

Yes, but I can understand the desire for a more "authentic" experience, if
only to check the readability of a text screen for users with only a
composite monitor. It should always be an option.
--
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com
Re: AppleWin 1.26.0 (pre-release) [message #328964 is a reply to message #328943] Thu, 22 September 2016 02:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Brian Patrie

On 2016-09-21 15:05, TomCh wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 9:36:35 PM UTC+1, Brian Patrie wrote:

>> Where i really notice it is in this rather crude ProDOS filesystem
>> browser (i hesitate to call it a file manager, as can't even copy
>> files) that i wrote in BASIC. I can throw in on an image and
>> dropbox it if need be. But it's also noticeable in a long BASIC
>> listing--especially in double-size/full-screen, where it's barely
>> faster than 1 MHz mode.

> With the 'long BASIC listing' it is easy to reproduce...
> although I get ~10MHz at full-speed (v1.26.0.3).
>
> FWIW, the AppleWin benchmark rates "Pure CPU MHz" as:
> . 1.25.0.4: 172 MHz
> . 1.26.0.3: 12 MHz

Under Wine 1.6.2, under Linux Mint 17.3, on a 2.4 GHz i5, i get:

1.26.0.3: 133 MHz
1.25.0.3: 8 MHz

(I notice that double-size mode doesn't affect this much,
but greatly affects real performance.)

> As stated elsewhere on this thread, the video generation is
> much more CPU intensive, so full-speed will now run slower.
>
> Can you explain your use-case(s) for full-speed?
>
> EG. Full-speed automatically kicks in when the disk drive is on.
> Resulting in faster loading. We have already looked at this case
> and done a bit of work to optimise this.

I'm manually holding scroll-lock whilst it loads the directory,
and puts the list on the screen (and when listing, and pasting, etc)

Ooh. Could the video generation (perhaps optionally)
drop to a more lax mode during full speed?

--
Brian
Re: AppleWin 1.26.0 (pre-release) [message #328968 is a reply to message #328964] Thu, 22 September 2016 04:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TomCh is currently offline  TomCh
Messages: 188
Registered: November 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Thursday, September 22, 2016 at 7:02:55 AM UTC+1, Brian Patrie wrote:
> On 2016-09-21 15:05, TomCh wrote:
>> On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 9:36:35 PM UTC+1, Brian Patrie wrote:
>
>>> Where i really notice it is in this rather crude ProDOS filesystem
>>> browser (i hesitate to call it a file manager, as can't even copy
>>> files) that i wrote in BASIC. I can throw in on an image and
>>> dropbox it if need be. But it's also noticeable in a long BASIC
>>> listing--especially in double-size/full-screen, where it's barely
>>> faster than 1 MHz mode.
>
>> With the 'long BASIC listing' it is easy to reproduce...
>> although I get ~10MHz at full-speed (v1.26.0.3).
>>
>> FWIW, the AppleWin benchmark rates "Pure CPU MHz" as:
>> . 1.25.0.4: 172 MHz
>> . 1.26.0.3: 12 MHz
>
> Under Wine 1.6.2, under Linux Mint 17.3, on a 2.4 GHz i5, i get:
>
> 1.26.0.3: 133 MHz
> 1.25.0.3: 8 MHz
>
> (I notice that double-size mode doesn't affect this much,
> but greatly affects real performance.)
>
>> As stated elsewhere on this thread, the video generation is
>> much more CPU intensive, so full-speed will now run slower.
>>
>> Can you explain your use-case(s) for full-speed?
>>
>> EG. Full-speed automatically kicks in when the disk drive is on.
>> Resulting in faster loading. We have already looked at this case
>> and done a bit of work to optimise this.
>
> I'm manually holding scroll-lock whilst it loads the directory,
> and puts the list on the screen (and when listing, and pasting, etc)
>
> Ooh. Could the video generation (perhaps optionally)
> drop to a more lax mode during full speed?
>
> --
> Brian

Thanks. Yes, pasting is another good use-case.

Lax (imprecise but fast) video emulation during full-speed mode is something we put into 1.26, but we'll be tuning it further based on your listing/pasting use-cases.

I hope to have a new update soon.

Tom
Re: AppleWin 1.26.0 (pre-release) [message #328985 is a reply to message #328948] Thu, 22 September 2016 09:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Steve Nickolas is currently offline  Steve Nickolas
Messages: 1884
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
o.O;

Let's say I'm in split HGR mode and I BSAVE a file, A8192,L8192...

While the drive's operating, the screen becomes a flickery mess,
constantly changing video modes between full text and full graphics...

-uso.
Re: AppleWin 1.26.0 (pre-release) [message #329005 is a reply to message #328985] Thu, 22 September 2016 16:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TomCh is currently offline  TomCh
Messages: 188
Registered: November 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Thursday, September 22, 2016 at 2:13:37 PM UTC+1, Steve Nickolas wrote:
> o.O;
>
> Let's say I'm in split HGR mode and I BSAVE a file, A8192,L8192...
>
> While the drive's operating, the screen becomes a flickery mess,
> constantly changing video modes between full text and full graphics...
>
> -uso.

Thanks Steve. Tracked here: https://github.com/AppleWin/AppleWin/issues/352

Tom
Re: AppleWin 1.26.0 (pre-release) [message #329006 is a reply to message #328888] Thu, 22 September 2016 16:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TomCh is currently offline  TomCh
Messages: 188
Registered: November 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 8:55:02 PM UTC+1, Brian Patrie wrote:
> On 2016-09-20 14:11, Brian Patrie wrote:
>> In another, perhaps more addressable, corner: the up, down, and delete
>> keys in the Pravets 82 & 8M emulation are generating cr, /, and nothing
>> respectively. Granted, as II+ clones, those keys might be irrelevant;
>> but those are kinda bizarre bindings.
>
> Oops. The II+ emu does this too, and does on 1.25.0.3,
> but the Pravetses don't on 1.25.0.3.

Thanks Brian. Tracking these issues here:
https://github.com/AppleWin/AppleWin/issues/353

Tom
Re: AppleWin 1.26.0 (pre-release) [message #329025 is a reply to message #328833] Thu, 22 September 2016 23:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Brian Patrie

On 2016-09-19 16:44, TomCh wrote:
> There's a new pre-release of AppleWin 1.26.0 here:
> https://github.com/AppleWin/AppleWin/releases/tag/v1.26.0.3
>
> The main changes are:
>
> - Beta NTSC support
> . TV Color, TV B&W, Monitor Color, Monitor B&W
> - Full-screen native resolution (no longer 640x480 resolution)
> - Save-state file v2: human readable (Yaml-based format)
> . All hardware configurations save/restored:
> . Apple model, sub-systems, memory, cards (except Uthernet and SAM cards)
> . Old v1 .aws file format still loaded
> - Added SAM/DAC sound card support
> - AppleWin built with VS2008 Express (supports Windows 2000 or later)

I just noticed that graphics in the Color Monitor mode are shifted one
HGR pixel to the right (losing the rightmost pixel).

Also the lines get vertically blurred in the TV modes, kinda defeating
the 50% mode.

--
Brian
Re: AppleWin 1.26.0 (pre-release) [message #329445 is a reply to message #329025] Thu, 29 September 2016 17:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TomCh is currently offline  TomCh
Messages: 188
Registered: November 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Friday, September 23, 2016 at 4:22:47 AM UTC+1, Brian Patrie wrote:
> On 2016-09-19 16:44, TomCh wrote:
>> There's a new pre-release of AppleWin 1.26.0 here:
>> https://github.com/AppleWin/AppleWin/releases/tag/v1.26.0.3
>>
>> The main changes are:
>>
>> - Beta NTSC support
>> . TV Color, TV B&W, Monitor Color, Monitor B&W
>> - Full-screen native resolution (no longer 640x480 resolution)
>> - Save-state file v2: human readable (Yaml-based format)
>> . All hardware configurations save/restored:
>> . Apple model, sub-systems, memory, cards (except Uthernet and SAM cards)
>> . Old v1 .aws file format still loaded
>> - Added SAM/DAC sound card support
>> - AppleWin built with VS2008 Express (supports Windows 2000 or later)
>
> I just noticed that graphics in the Color Monitor mode are shifted one
> HGR pixel to the right (losing the rightmost pixel).
>
> Also the lines get vertically blurred in the TV modes, kinda defeating
> the 50% mode.
>
> --
> Brian

Thanks Brian.

I've logged your comments against these existing issues:
https://github.com/AppleWin/AppleWin/issues/341
https://github.com/AppleWin/AppleWin/issues/344

I'll try to pull together a new RC this weekend to address (most) things in this entire thread.

Cheers,
Tom
Re: AppleWin 1.26.0 (pre-release) [message #329920 is a reply to message #328939] Mon, 10 October 2016 17:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
TomCh is currently offline  TomCh
Messages: 188
Registered: November 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Wednesday, September 21, 2016 at 8:41:58 PM UTC+1, TomCh wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 5:14:44 AM UTC+1, Steve Nickolas wrote:
>> On Mon, 19 Sep 2016, TomCh wrote:
>>
>>> - Beta NTSC support
>>> . TV Color, TV B&W, Monitor Color, Monitor B&W
>>
>> If I miss something, it's a "normal-ish" mode that blends color in
>> graphics modes, but still shows clear text in text modes.
>>
>> With the current version, I either get blended color and blurry,
>> headache-inducing text (even in text mode), or sharp text and unblended
>> color.
>>
>> -uso.
>
> Hi Steve,
>
> This "Color (text optimized)" mode was one that got removed. I don't have any plans to re-instate it (preferring accuracy over image-enhancements) - but maybe the other AppleWin devs think differently.
>
> Does anyone else miss this?
> Please raise a github issue if you feel strongly enough.
>
> Thanks for your feedback,
> Tom

Hi Steve

Can I just confirm which video mode you are talking about...?
a) "Color (text optimized)"
b) "Color (TV emulation)"

I previously assumed you meant (a), but now, on re-reading you post it's not clear.

Thanks,
Tom
Re: AppleWin 1.26.0 (pre-release) [message #329923 is a reply to message #329920] Mon, 10 October 2016 18:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Steve Nickolas is currently offline  Steve Nickolas
Messages: 1884
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Mon, 10 Oct 2016, TomCh wrote:

> On Wednesday, September 21, 2016 at 8:41:58 PM UTC+1, TomCh wrote:
>> On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 5:14:44 AM UTC+1, Steve Nickolas wrote:
>>> On Mon, 19 Sep 2016, TomCh wrote:
>>>
>>>> - Beta NTSC support
>>>> . TV Color, TV B&W, Monitor Color, Monitor B&W
>>>
>>> If I miss something, it's a "normal-ish" mode that blends color in
>>> graphics modes, but still shows clear text in text modes.
>>>
>>> With the current version, I either get blended color and blurry,
>>> headache-inducing text (even in text mode), or sharp text and unblended
>>> color.
>>>
>>> -uso.
>>
>> Hi Steve,
>>
>> This "Color (text optimized)" mode was one that got removed. I don't have any plans to re-instate it (preferring accuracy over image-enhancements) - but maybe the other AppleWin devs think differently.
>>
>> Does anyone else miss this?
>> Please raise a github issue if you feel strongly enough.
>>
>> Thanks for your feedback,
>> Tom
>
> Hi Steve
>
> Can I just confirm which video mode you are talking about...?
> a) "Color (text optimized)"
> b) "Color (TV emulation)"
>
> I previously assumed you meant (a), but now, on re-reading you post it's not clear.
>
> Thanks,
> Tom
>

"Blended color and blurry headache-inducing text" is "Color TV".

"Sharp text and unblended color" is "Color Monitor".

I believe I generally used to use Color (Text Optimized).

If I had the option, I'd have it so that *graphics* modes appeared as
"Color TV", but *text* modes appeared as "Color Monitor" (i.e., just
plain, clean, unfiltered, unblurred, black and white). (And I'd be OK
with the text in graphics modes still being fringed and blurry. I used
ApplePC for years, and it emulates that quirk faithfully.)

-uso.
Re: AppleWin 1.26.0 (pre-release) [message #329946 is a reply to message #329923] Tue, 11 October 2016 07:37 Go to previous message
TomCh is currently offline  TomCh
Messages: 188
Registered: November 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Monday, October 10, 2016 at 11:58:54 PM UTC+1, Steve Nickolas wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Oct 2016, TomCh wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, September 21, 2016 at 8:41:58 PM UTC+1, TomCh wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 5:14:44 AM UTC+1, Steve Nickolas wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 19 Sep 2016, TomCh wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > - Beta NTSC support
>>>> > . TV Color, TV B&W, Monitor Color, Monitor B&W
>>>>
>>>> If I miss something, it's a "normal-ish" mode that blends color in
>>>> graphics modes, but still shows clear text in text modes.
>>>>
>>>> With the current version, I either get blended color and blurry,
>>>> headache-inducing text (even in text mode), or sharp text and unblended
>>>> color.
>>>>
>>>> -uso.
>>>
>>> Hi Steve,
>>>
>>> This "Color (text optimized)" mode was one that got removed. I don't have any plans to re-instate it (preferring accuracy over image-enhancements) - but maybe the other AppleWin devs think differently.
>>>
>>> Does anyone else miss this?
>>> Please raise a github issue if you feel strongly enough.
>>>
>>> Thanks for your feedback,
>>> Tom
>>
>> Hi Steve
>>
>> Can I just confirm which video mode you are talking about...?
>> a) "Color (text optimized)"
>> b) "Color (TV emulation)"
>>
>> I previously assumed you meant (a), but now, on re-reading you post it's not clear.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Tom
>>
>
> "Blended color and blurry headache-inducing text" is "Color TV".
>
> "Sharp text and unblended color" is "Color Monitor".
>
> I believe I generally used to use Color (Text Optimized).
>
> If I had the option, I'd have it so that *graphics* modes appeared as
> "Color TV", but *text* modes appeared as "Color Monitor" (i.e., just
> plain, clean, unfiltered, unblurred, black and white). (And I'd be OK
> with the text in graphics modes still being fringed and blurry. I used
> ApplePC for years, and it emulates that quirk faithfully.)
>
> -uso.

Thanks for clarification.

Sounds like your ideal is 1.25's "Color (Text Opt)", but 1.25's "Color (TV emu)" would also work for you.

A request (by another user) has been raised for the reinstatement of "Color (TV emu)", here: https://github.com/AppleWin/AppleWin/issues/357

I'll discuss this further with Michael and Nick.

Tom
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