| Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315509 is a reply to message #315498] |
Sun, 03 April 2016 15:45   |
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Originally posted by: Thomas Johns
"Morten Reistad" <first@last.name.invalid> wrote in message
news:cj48tc-m65.ln1@sambook.reistad.name...
> In article <dmd3u5F6vjlU1@mid.individual.net>,
> Thomas Johns <TJzz@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Walter Bushell" <proto@panix.com> wrote in message
>> news:proto-8C4477.12561503042016@news.panix.com...
>>> In article <8uhtsc-6b1.ln1@sambook.reistad.name>,
>>> Morten Reistad <first@Last.name.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article
>>>> <950348948.481046768.067116.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>,
>>>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >OTOH, OP said the person wanted to learn programming, so s/he should
>>>> >probably start with an HLL. That's one thing to be said for BASIC,
>>>> >the
>>>> >"B"
>>>> >stands for "beginner's" for a reason. You can learn most of the
>>>> >basics
>>>> >of
>>>> >programming without all the complexity. Interpreters are available
>>>> >for
>>>> >free for most systems.
>>>>
>>>> Dabble around in basic, yes. Or even a *n*x shell. But do go for a
>>>> heavily
>>>> structured language too.
>>
>>> Some "Basics" are structured.
>>
>>> There must be structured Fortrans than
>>> allow recursion, these days.
>>
>> There have been structured Fortrans for 40 years now, most obviously with
>> Ratfor.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratfor
>
> At one point in the journey towards programming you will probably
> benefit from a little structured coersion from the language. Pascal
> does this well. After writing a few thousand lines of code you will
> get the gist of it, of you ever will. So take an excursion into
> this land, reasonably early in your quest.
It's very hard not to now that virtually all the viable languages
are structured to a great or lesser extent, even Basic.
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| Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315518 is a reply to message #315406] |
Sun, 03 April 2016 18:25 |
Mike Spencer
Messages: 997
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
> A good book on the history of programming discussed that issue.
> Back in the 1960s and 1970s there was a serious shortage of
> programmers. Colleges had compsci courses, but the training
> was not what industry needed.
Circa 1964 I signed up for a "Computer Programming" course. The
professor was seconded for a year from industry. He immediately
started in with a textbook on numerical methods. About 3/4 of the
class rebelled, demanding to be taught how to write programs, not just
background math. The prof said, "But you can't write a decent program
if you don't know this stuff!"
But when nearly all of us proposed to drop the course the next day if
we didn't learn how to write programs, he grumpily switched over to
some version of Fortran and each of us wrote a simple program
applicable each to our major. Punched on cards and run through the
IBM 1620. My last contact with a computer for 16 years.
> Further, industry learned that hiring a college compsci professor as
> a consultant had weaknesses, as their approach could be very
> esoteric and not related to solving the actual problem efficiently.
In this case, it was the industry guy who was keen on theory and
we'uns kids on practical stuff. But no numerical sophistication was
needed for my toy statistical program for a chemistry class and I
learned generalities that were useful 16 years later.
> It is important to note that in the business world, many programmers
> came up through the ranks of computer operators or tabulating
> machine operators. Advanced tab machine operators, who knew how
> to wire boards, already understood the basic concepts of information
> processing for business. The earliest programs basically mimicked
> a tabulating machine.
Ha. Interesting.
> Also, in the 1970s, many community colleges began to offer courses
> in programming, oriented toward practical skills.
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| Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315519 is a reply to message #315282] |
Sun, 03 April 2016 18:39 |
Mike Spencer
Messages: 997
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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pechter@pechter.net (William Pechter) writes:
> In article <87k2kji3d8.fsf@roadgrime.nodomain.nowhere>,
> Mike Spencer <mspencer@tallships.ca> wrote:
>
>> Twenty-five years ago, when I had occasion to work next to an
>> about-graduate comp sci major at a university biz school, I was
>> appalled to learn that he thought that if Unix ran multiple
>> programs "simultaneously" that they were really executing their op
>> codes at the same time. This was long before multi-CPU or
>> multi-core machines were an article of commerce. I thought he was
>> supposed to have spent the preceding 4 years getting "a grounding
>> in basic computer science."
>
> Pyramid Technology had their SMP Unix boxes available in the mid
> 80's. Their 9845 was a four cpu RISC Unix box available by 1987.
> So 1987... So it was possible these things were available to him at
> that time. I know we had SMP Unix boxes in the area here by the
> late 1980s and by the early 1990's they were very common in
> colleges.
>
> SMP Vaxes were announced in the 1986 timeframe (according to
> Wikipedia) and so they had to be available in the 1988
> timeframe... so by 25 years ago these things were easily available
> to businesses.
I didn't know that. The student on whom I remarked had had at least
a couple of Vaxen available along with numerous Intel micros and
(presumably) other machines I didn't know about. Perhaps our
conversation related to his first exposure to a DEC Ultrix
workstation.
> (worked for both DEC and Pyramid back in the day...and played sysadmin
> on the Pyramid SMP boxes and just missed the DEC ones by moving off Vaxes
> by the early 1990s)
--
Michael Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada .~.
/V\
/( )\
^^-^^
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| Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315520 is a reply to message #315408] |
Sun, 03 April 2016 18:54 |
Mike Spencer
Messages: 997
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
> I remember years ago when I took drivers' ed, there was a debate in
> that field in how much mechanical knowledge students should have.
> Yes, students should be able to change a flat and check the oil.
> But should students be taught how to _change_ the oil? Should
> they understand the _internals_ of an automatic transmission, or
> just know when to use D/1/2 settings?
Interesting that such a debate occurred. I've long belived that
everbody should have some basic knowledge of (what I think of, rather
loosely as) the next level down from the one at which they're working.
Drivers should indeed have some understanding of the internal
combustion engine and maybe even the auto trans.
Mechanics should have some basic knowledge of metallurgy, heat and
electricity. [1] They shouldn't look at the fracrture surfaceof a
broken crankshaft and say, "Look, it crystalized".
Automotive engineers should have a basic knowledge of the chemistry
and physics that supports the engineering.
And so on, mutatis mutandem for other domains.
But maybe I just think too much. :-)
[1] Well, once upon a time, anyhow. I've given up working on my own
relatively new car because it's all black-box. My next new car,
should I live long enough to need one, may be a fully restored
1970s Land Rover. About the same price as a new Toy Ota.
--
Michael Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada .~.
/V\
/( )\
^^-^^
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| Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315521 is a reply to message #315226] |
Sun, 03 April 2016 19:21 |
Walter Bushell
Messages: 1834
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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In article <20160331073718.0c507cbb1c7286df6e4ffaf2@eircom.net>,
Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On 31 Mar 2016 03:10:59 -0300
> Mike Spencer <mspencer@tallships.ca> wrote:
>
>>
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>>
>>> Most programmers I have met in the last decade or so could do
>>> with a grounding in basic computer science.
>>
>> It's worthy of note that early on, programmers were engineers,
>> mathematicians, physical science types, musicians and heterogeneous
>> eccentrics. A lot of the jargon emerged from those backgrounds.
>>
>> Twenty-five years ago, when I had occasion to work next to an
>> about-graduate comp sci major at a university biz school, I was appalled
>> to learn that he thought that if Unix ran multiple programs
>> "simultaneously" that they were really executing their op codes at the
>> same time. This was long before multi-CPU or multi-core machines were
>> an article of commerce. I thought he was supposed to have spent the
>> preceding 4 years getting "a grounding in basic computer science."
>
> That is alarming.
Hey, if it's microseconds or even milliseconds between swaps of
attention, it's the same from a human's point of view. Mayhap, not
if you're being charged for actual CPU time.
--
To terrify children with the image of hell,
to consider women an inferior creation is that good for the world?
Christopher Hitchens
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| Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315522 is a reply to message #315358] |
Sun, 03 April 2016 19:25 |
Walter Bushell
Messages: 1834
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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In article <27ltfbdfbol4104lkhneda05iqodvmrm7n@4ax.com>,
Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.
<SNIP>
> I got my BCS in 2010. I remember one explanation of how the
> computer executes code that was simplified to the point of being very
> misleading. Many things that I learned in my teen years were not
> covered in the program. I am referring to useful things like how
> floating point arithmetic works!
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Gene Wirchenko
Or doesn't work! Some compilers will rearrange floating point operations
by the rules that work for real numbers. This is invalid in general.
Suppose you debug with optimization turned off and put the program
into production with optimization turned on.
Oopsie!
--
To terrify children with the image of hell,
to consider women an inferior creation is that good for the world?
Christopher Hitchens
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| Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315524 is a reply to message #315305] |
Sun, 03 April 2016 19:31 |
Walter Bushell
Messages: 1834
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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In article <tOKdneD4yYPzDGDLnZ2dnUU7-N3NnZ2d@giganews.com>,
Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> wrote:
>>
> Gee, not really. It is a huge benefit to know what the machine code will
> look like in general when coding in HLLs. But, the minute detail of what's
> left in the carry bit from 5 instructions back, I really DON'T want to deal
> with. C can be a bit frustrating due to the crummy syntax, but it is kind
> of like English, the universal language. I did all the programming for my
> own use in Pascal for quite some years, and still think it is a pretty good
> language. it might even be making a comeback!
>
> Jon
It doesn't matter about the carry bit, out of order and speculative
execution make such details an elephant and immaterial.
--
To terrify children with the image of hell,
to consider women an inferior creation is that good for the world?
Christopher Hitchens
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| Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315530 is a reply to message #315519] |
Sun, 03 April 2016 20:08 |
Morten Reistad
Messages: 2108
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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In article <87a8la2u6i.fsf@roadgrime.nodomain.nowhere>,
Mike Spencer <mspencer@tallships.ca> wrote:
>
> pechter@pechter.net (William Pechter) writes:
>
>> In article <87k2kji3d8.fsf@roadgrime.nodomain.nowhere>,
>> Mike Spencer <mspencer@tallships.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> Twenty-five years ago, when I had occasion to work next to an
>>> about-graduate comp sci major at a university biz school, I was
>>> appalled to learn that he thought that if Unix ran multiple
>>> programs "simultaneously" that they were really executing their op
>>> codes at the same time. This was long before multi-CPU or
>>> multi-core machines were an article of commerce. I thought he was
>>> supposed to have spent the preceding 4 years getting "a grounding
>>> in basic computer science."
>>
>> Pyramid Technology had their SMP Unix boxes available in the mid
>> 80's. Their 9845 was a four cpu RISC Unix box available by 1987.
>> So 1987... So it was possible these things were available to him at
>> that time. I know we had SMP Unix boxes in the area here by the
>> late 1980s and by the early 1990's they were very common in
>> colleges.
>>
>> SMP Vaxes were announced in the 1986 timeframe (according to
>> Wikipedia) and so they had to be available in the 1988
>> timeframe... so by 25 years ago these things were easily available
>> to businesses.
>
> I didn't know that. The student on whom I remarked had had at least
> a couple of Vaxen available along with numerous Intel micros and
> (presumably) other machines I didn't know about. Perhaps our
> conversation related to his first exposure to a DEC Ultrix
> workstation.
Also, altos and ncr had multiprocessor 80386 systems, the ncr
ones went to 16 processors; which was quite a stretch at that
time. ISTR it was a 4 by 4 NUMA with some bus interconnect, and
4 80386'es with some FPGA to negotiate the memory buses.
NCR had a very brief life as a computer vendor in that round.
ISTR the Altos one was a simple 2processor one, but I may be
mistaken.
>> (worked for both DEC and Pyramid back in the day...and played sysadmin
>> on the Pyramid SMP boxes and just missed the DEC ones by moving off Vaxes
>> by the early 1990s)
-- mrr
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| Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315533 is a reply to message #315520] |
Sun, 03 April 2016 20:15 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
In article <877fge2ti2.fsf@roadgrime.nodomain.nowhere>,
mspencer@tallships.ca says...
>
> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>
>> I remember years ago when I took drivers' ed, there was a debate in
>> that field in how much mechanical knowledge students should have.
>> Yes, students should be able to change a flat and check the oil.
>> But should students be taught how to _change_ the oil? Should
>> they understand the _internals_ of an automatic transmission, or
>> just know when to use D/1/2 settings?
>
> Interesting that such a debate occurred. I've long belived that
> everbody should have some basic knowledge of (what I think of, rather
> loosely as) the next level down from the one at which they're working.
> Drivers should indeed have some understanding of the internal
> combustion engine and maybe even the auto trans.
>
> Mechanics should have some basic knowledge of metallurgy, heat and
> electricity. [1] They shouldn't look at the fracrture surfaceof a
> broken crankshaft and say, "Look, it crystalized".
>
> Automotive engineers should have a basic knowledge of the chemistry
> and physics that supports the engineering.
>
> And so on, mutatis mutandem for other domains.
>
> But maybe I just think too much. :-)
I think you're on the right track but in the case of driving I think
understanding vehicle dynamics is more important than understanding how
the engine works (especially considering that these days the engine
doesn't necessarily work that way). Disaster is more likely to come
from not understanding that putting too much weight in the wrong place
can cause control problems than from not understanding what goes on in
the engine.
> [1] Well, once upon a time, anyhow. I've given up working on my own
> relatively new car because it's all black-box. My next new car,
> should I live long enough to need one, may be a fully restored
> 1970s Land Rover. About the same price as a new Toy Ota.
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| Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315544 is a reply to message #315522] |
Sun, 03 April 2016 23:04 |
Gene Wirchenko
Messages: 1166
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Sun, 03 Apr 2016 19:25:09 -0400, Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com>
wrote:
> In article <27ltfbdfbol4104lkhneda05iqodvmrm7n@4ax.com>,
> Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.
> <SNIP>
>> I got my BCS in 2010. I remember one explanation of how the
>> computer executes code that was simplified to the point of being very
>> misleading. Many things that I learned in my teen years were not
>> covered in the program. I am referring to useful things like how
>> floating point arithmetic works!
> Or doesn't work! Some compilers will rearrange floating point operations
> by the rules that work for real numbers. This is invalid in general.
> Suppose you debug with optimization turned off and put the program
> into production with optimization turned on.
>
> Oopsie!
Quite.
Mind you, knowing how floating point works, I was able to do exact
calculations with it for a limited set of values. Effectively, I
recreated fixed-point arithmetic using floating point. I had to
because JavaScript only has one numeric type (a float).
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
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| Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315545 is a reply to message #315518] |
Sun, 03 April 2016 23:09 |
Gene Wirchenko
Messages: 1166
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 03 Apr 2016 19:25:32 -0300, Mike Spencer <mspencer@tallships.ca>
wrote:
[snip]
> In this case, it was the industry guy who was keen on theory and
> we'uns kids on practical stuff. But no numerical sophistication was
No, he was keen on the long term, and you students only on the
short term.
> needed for my toy statistical program for a chemistry class and I
> learned generalities that were useful 16 years later.
Good theory is very practical.
Precision issues can bite very hard in such areas as statistics.
[snip]
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
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| Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315546 is a reply to message #315520] |
Sun, 03 April 2016 23:19 |
Andrew Swallow
Messages: 1705
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 03/04/2016 23:54, Mike Spencer wrote:
{snip}
> Interesting that such a debate occurred. I've long belived that
> everbody should have some basic knowledge of (what I think of, rather
> loosely as) the next level down from the one at which they're working.
> Drivers should indeed have some understanding of the internal
> combustion engine and maybe even the auto trans.
One level down means a driver needs to know that a driver has to know
that a car has an engine, wheels, fuel tank and that the steering wheel
is connected to the front wheels. About all she needs to know about the
engine is that some burn petrol and some diesel plus using the wrong
fuel will damage the engine.
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| Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315563 is a reply to message #315545] |
Mon, 04 April 2016 05:44 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
In article <ijm3gbddujqkvct401jfcg3fnh8hmaa08v@4ax.com>, genew@telus.net
says...
>
> On 03 Apr 2016 19:25:32 -0300, Mike Spencer <mspencer@tallships.ca>
> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> In this case, it was the industry guy who was keen on theory and
>> we'uns kids on practical stuff. But no numerical sophistication was
>
> No, he was keen on the long term, and you students only on the
> short term.
No, he was keen on what he perceived to be important, and not on what
the class was all about. If you are planning to become an analytical
engineer or physicist numerical methods are necessary and useful. If
you are designing web sites not so much.
The kids were paying to learn code, not numerical methods. If the guy
wanted to teach a numerical methods class then that's what he should
have taught.
>> needed for my toy statistical program for a chemistry class and I
>> learned generalities that were useful 16 years later.
>
> Good theory is very practical.
>
> Precision issues can bite very hard in such areas as statistics.
>
> [snip]
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Gene Wirchenko
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| Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315572 is a reply to message #315530] |
Mon, 04 April 2016 08:58 |
jmfbahciv
Messages: 6173
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Morten Reistad wrote:
> In article <87a8la2u6i.fsf@roadgrime.nodomain.nowhere>,
> Mike Spencer <mspencer@tallships.ca> wrote:
>>
>> pechter@pechter.net (William Pechter) writes:
>>
>>> In article <87k2kji3d8.fsf@roadgrime.nodomain.nowhere>,
>>> Mike Spencer <mspencer@tallships.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Twenty-five years ago, when I had occasion to work next to an
>>>> about-graduate comp sci major at a university biz school, I was
>>>> appalled to learn that he thought that if Unix ran multiple
>>>> programs "simultaneously" that they were really executing their op
>>>> codes at the same time. This was long before multi-CPU or
>>>> multi-core machines were an article of commerce. I thought he was
>>>> supposed to have spent the preceding 4 years getting "a grounding
>>>> in basic computer science."
>>>
>>> Pyramid Technology had their SMP Unix boxes available in the mid
>>> 80's. Their 9845 was a four cpu RISC Unix box available by 1987.
>>> So 1987... So it was possible these things were available to him at
>>> that time. I know we had SMP Unix boxes in the area here by the
>>> late 1980s and by the early 1990's they were very common in
>>> colleges.
>>>
>>> SMP Vaxes were announced in the 1986 timeframe (according to
>>> Wikipedia) and so they had to be available in the 1988
>>> timeframe... so by 25 years ago these things were easily available
>>> to businesses.
>>
>> I didn't know that. The student on whom I remarked had had at least
>> a couple of Vaxen available along with numerous Intel micros and
>> (presumably) other machines I didn't know about. Perhaps our
>> conversation related to his first exposure to a DEC Ultrix
>> workstation.
>
> Also, altos and ncr had multiprocessor 80386 systems, the ncr
> ones went to 16 processors; which was quite a stretch at that
> time. ISTR it was a 4 by 4 NUMA with some bus interconnect, and
> 4 80386'es with some FPGA to negotiate the memory buses.
>
> NCR had a very brief life as a computer vendor in that round.
>
> ISTR the Altos one was a simple 2processor one, but I may be
> mistaken.
>
>>> (worked for both DEC and Pyramid back in the day...and played sysadmin
>>> on the Pyramid SMP boxes and just missed the DEC ones by moving off Vaxes
>>> by the early 1990s)
DEC's KA multiprocesser system was the 1055.
The KI multiprocessor system was the 1077.
The KL multiprocessor system was the 1088.
the 1055 was, IIRC, 1972.
/BAH
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| Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315573 is a reply to message #315359] |
Mon, 04 April 2016 09:04 |
scott
Messages: 4237
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
> Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>> When was the last time you used a C compiler? The quality of generated
>> code from modern compilers (PCG, Intel C, GCC, Clang) is exemplary. Visual
>> Studio lags, it is true.
>
> I've used gcc. I was thinking of Aztec C for DOS (and probably
> Borland,etc.), that had something like four instructions of overhead for a
> program. Nowadays the startup calls tons of library code before the
> program does anything, even if it just returns.
>
If you consider a couple hundred instructions "a ton".
$ cat /tmp/a.c
int main(int argc, const char * const *argv)
{
return 1;
}
$ strace /tmp/a
execve("/tmp/a", ["/tmp/a"], [/* 64 vars */]) = 0
uname({sys="Linux", node="host1", ...}) = 0
brk(0) = 0x121d000
brk(0x121e180) = 0x121e180
arch_prctl(ARCH_SET_FS, 0x121d860) = 0
brk(0x123f180) = 0x123f180
brk(0x1240000) = 0x1240000
exit_group(1) = ?
Six system calls, all but one of which extended the
heap by about 128kbytes.
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| Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315574 is a reply to message #315368] |
Mon, 04 April 2016 09:07 |
scott
Messages: 4237
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> writes:
> git://git.gnome.org/pan2)
> X-Received-Bytes: 3378
> X-Received-Body-CRC: 3832650103
>
> On Fri, 01 Apr 2016 17:05:02 -0400, Peter Flass wrote:
>
>> Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>>> Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>> It may LOOK like it - but nothing like. The PDP-11 is moderately
>>>> orthogonal - the x86 isn't. PDP-11 instructions mostly work with any
>>>> source and destination - the x86 ones don't.
>>>
>>> The x86 instructions mostly work with any source and destination as
>>> well.
>>> This isn't 1980 anymore.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I've programmed (for pay) in assembler on the PDP-8, PDP-11,
>>> Vax-11/780,
>>> Itel AS-6 (running MVS), Burroughs medium systems (as an operating
>>> system engineer), 6502, 68K, 88100, MIPS, Intel (386 to current Xeons)
>>> and ARM64 in the last 40 years.
>>>
>>> They all have their quirks. I was never fond of the 370 instruction
>>> set myself. I did quite like the VAX instruction set, I found MOVC5
>>> particularly useful having some characteristics in common with the
>>> Burroughs data movement instructions.
>>>
>>>
>> I liked the VAX too, but it always seemed to me that a large portion of
>> the instruction set would be unused by the average programmer.
>
> I agree. Even compiler writers found it hard (I wrote a VAX compiler)!
That said, for many of the instructions (e.g. POLY), there were no
source-language features that would trigger generation. I wrote a PASCAL
compiler that generated VAX object code back in the early 80's; We had
the choice of PDP-11 or VAX as the target, and it turns out it was much
easier to generate code for the VAX when compared to the PDP-11 (32-bit vs. 16-bit
mainly).
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| Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315575 is a reply to message #315545] |
Mon, 04 April 2016 09:10 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> wrote:
> On 03 Apr 2016 19:25:32 -0300, Mike Spencer <mspencer@tallships.ca>
> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> In this case, it was the industry guy who was keen on theory and
>> we'uns kids on practical stuff. But no numerical sophistication was
>
> No, he was keen on the long term, and you students only on the
> short term.
I agree with the students, but I like to work from the practical to the
theoretical. When I'm trying to understand something I start with a small
program and make it progressively more complicated. In this case you'd
start with a program and then work on understanding the theory underlying
it. YMMV.
>
>> needed for my toy statistical program for a chemistry class and I
>> learned generalities that were useful 16 years later.
>
> Good theory is very practical.
>
> Precision issues can bite very hard in such areas as statistics.
>
> [snip]
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Gene Wirchenko
>
--
Pete
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| Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315581 is a reply to message #315574] |
Mon, 04 April 2016 09:16 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
> Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> writes:
>> git://git.gnome.org/pan2)
>> X-Received-Bytes: 3378
>> X-Received-Body-CRC: 3832650103
>>
>> On Fri, 01 Apr 2016 17:05:02 -0400, Peter Flass wrote:
>>
>>> Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>>>> Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> writes:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > It may LOOK like it - but nothing like. The PDP-11 is moderately
>>>> > orthogonal - the x86 isn't. PDP-11 instructions mostly work with any
>>>> > source and destination - the x86 ones don't.
>>>>
>>>> The x86 instructions mostly work with any source and destination as
>>>> well.
>>>> This isn't 1980 anymore.
>>>>
>>>>
>
>>>>
>>>> I've programmed (for pay) in assembler on the PDP-8, PDP-11,
>>>> Vax-11/780,
>>>> Itel AS-6 (running MVS), Burroughs medium systems (as an operating
>>>> system engineer), 6502, 68K, 88100, MIPS, Intel (386 to current Xeons)
>>>> and ARM64 in the last 40 years.
>>>>
>>>> They all have their quirks. I was never fond of the 370 instruction
>>>> set myself. I did quite like the VAX instruction set, I found MOVC5
>>>> particularly useful having some characteristics in common with the
>>>> Burroughs data movement instructions.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I liked the VAX too, but it always seemed to me that a large portion of
>>> the instruction set would be unused by the average programmer.
>>
>> I agree. Even compiler writers found it hard (I wrote a VAX compiler)!
>
> That said, for many of the instructions (e.g. POLY), there were no
> source-language features that would trigger generation. I wrote a PASCAL
> compiler that generated VAX object code back in the early 80's; We had
> the choice of PDP-11 or VAX as the target, and it turns out it was much
> easier to generate code for the VAX when compared to the PDP-11 (32-bit vs. 16-bit
> mainly).
>
I always got hung up on one- two- or three-address instructions. In many
cases you could generate code to do the same thing in a number of ways. I
suppose if I had done a lot of VAX assembler my coding would have fallen
into a constant pattern, but I kept trying to decide which was better.
--
Pete
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| Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315584 is a reply to message #315574] |
Mon, 04 April 2016 09:42 |
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Originally posted by: Bob Eager
On Mon, 04 Apr 2016 13:07:18 +0000, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> writes:
>> git://git.gnome.org/pan2)
>> X-Received-Bytes: 3378 X-Received-Body-CRC: 3832650103
>>
>> On Fri, 01 Apr 2016 17:05:02 -0400, Peter Flass wrote:
>>
>>> Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>>>> Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> writes:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > It may LOOK like it - but nothing like. The PDP-11 is moderately
>>>> > orthogonal - the x86 isn't. PDP-11 instructions mostly work with any
>>>> > source and destination - the x86 ones don't.
>>>>
>>>> The x86 instructions mostly work with any source and destination as
>>>> well.
>>>> This isn't 1980 anymore.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>
>>>> I've programmed (for pay) in assembler on the PDP-8, PDP-11,
>>>> Vax-11/780,
>>>> Itel AS-6 (running MVS), Burroughs medium systems (as an operating
>>>> system engineer), 6502, 68K, 88100, MIPS, Intel (386 to current
>>>> Xeons)
>>>> and ARM64 in the last 40 years.
>>>>
>>>> They all have their quirks. I was never fond of the 370 instruction
>>>> set myself. I did quite like the VAX instruction set, I found MOVC5
>>>> particularly useful having some characteristics in common with the
>>>> Burroughs data movement instructions.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I liked the VAX too, but it always seemed to me that a large portion
>>> of the instruction set would be unused by the average programmer.
>>
>> I agree. Even compiler writers found it hard (I wrote a VAX compiler)!
>
> That said, for many of the instructions (e.g. POLY), there were no
> source-language features that would trigger generation. I wrote a
> PASCAL compiler that generated VAX object code back in the early 80's;
> We had the choice of PDP-11 or VAX as the target, and it turns out it
> was much easier to generate code for the VAX when compared to the PDP-11
> (32-bit vs. 16-bit mainly).
Oh, indeed. I did the same compiler for both, as it happens.
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
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| Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315784 is a reply to message #315485] |
Tue, 05 April 2016 16:13 |
hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Sunday, April 3, 2016 at 2:00:03 PM UTC-4, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> Even fewer need to consider the cases where the canned ones are not
> suited - the we have the data on n tapes and we have m tape drives how do
> we sort it and minimise the tape swaps! These days if the data won't fit in
> RAM it's bigger than most datasets when those chapters were written.
Some years ago, I had a large file to sort and needed to give
special parameters to SYNCSORT in order it to run properly on our
machine. Once it was coded, it handled the large files without
problem.
I think going further back, when machines weren't as big,
SYNCSORT (and probably IBM's sort) had various options to
make best use of available core, tape, and disk drives.
Presumably, all those options are still available.
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| Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315797 is a reply to message #315784] |
Tue, 05 April 2016 17:46 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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<hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, April 3, 2016 at 2:00:03 PM UTC-4, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>
>> Even fewer need to consider the cases where the canned ones are not
>> suited - the we have the data on n tapes and we have m tape drives how do
>> we sort it and minimise the tape swaps! These days if the data won't fit in
>> RAM it's bigger than most datasets when those chapters were written.
>
> Some years ago, I had a large file to sort and needed to give
> special parameters to SYNCSORT in order it to run properly on our
> machine. Once it was coded, it handled the large files without
> problem.
>
> I think going further back, when machines weren't as big,
> SYNCSORT (and probably IBM's sort) had various options to
> make best use of available core, tape, and disk drives.
> Presumably, all those options are still available.
>
>
>
No, DFSORT has eliminated most (maybe all) the options. OS/370 SORT used
to have options to use a number of different sort algorithms depending on
the number and type of devices (and possibly main storage) available.
--
Pete
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| Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315800 is a reply to message #315797] |
Tue, 05 April 2016 17:48 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>> On Sunday, April 3, 2016 at 2:00:03 PM UTC-4, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>
>>> Even fewer need to consider the cases where the canned ones are not
>>> suited - the we have the data on n tapes and we have m tape drives how do
>>> we sort it and minimise the tape swaps! These days if the data won't fit in
>>> RAM it's bigger than most datasets when those chapters were written.
>>
>> Some years ago, I had a large file to sort and needed to give
>> special parameters to SYNCSORT in order it to run properly on our
>> machine. Once it was coded, it handled the large files without
>> problem.
>>
>> I think going further back, when machines weren't as big,
>> SYNCSORT (and probably IBM's sort) had various options to
>> make best use of available core, tape, and disk drives.
>> Presumably, all those options are still available.
>>
>>
>>
>
> No, DFSORT has eliminated most (maybe all) the options. OS/370 SORT used
^^^^^^^ OS/360, of course
> to have options to use a number of different sort algorithms depending on
> the number and type of devices (and possibly main storage) available.
>
--
Pete
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| Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315886 is a reply to message #315797] |
Wed, 06 April 2016 19:19 |
hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Tuesday, April 5, 2016 at 5:46:30 PM UTC-4, Peter Flass wrote:
> No, DFSORT has eliminated most (maybe all) the options. OS/370 SORT used
> to have options to use a number of different sort algorithms depending on
> the number and type of devices (and possibly main storage) available.
I was thinking of the popular commercial product, SYNCSORT, which
seemed to be used by many mainframe sites.
From their documentation it seems it still has numerous options:
"Syncsort MFX optimization procedures dynamically monitor
and respond to system status, including CPU utilization, DASD
contention, controller caching, central storage availability, paging
rates and the specific make and model computer MFX is running
on. MFX also exploits advanced parallel access volume (PAV)
technology to minimize the elapsed time of sort executions."
http://www.syncsort.com/CMSPages/GetFile.aspx?
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| Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #316009 is a reply to message #315994] |
Mon, 11 April 2016 08:07 |
jmfbahciv
Messages: 6173
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Dan Espen wrote:
> Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> writes:
>
>> In article <MPG.316b7c2a14d4f4a698a077@news.eternal-september.org>,
>> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Disaster is more likely to come
>>> from not understanding that putting too much weight in the wrong place
>>> can cause control problems than from not understanding what goes on in
>>> the engine.
>>
>> Oh yes. Some drivers overload their car, because they (the drivers) are
>> so obese. What do you expect when the government is doing everything
>> thing the can do to increase obesity?
>
> Wow!
>
> Can only guess that you are blaming your own over eating on the
> government. No cops in my kitchen, how about you?
If you obeyed what the government recommends you should eat, your
weight would increase.
/BAH
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| Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #316010 is a reply to message #316009] |
Mon, 11 April 2016 08:25 |
Morten Reistad
Messages: 2108
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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In article <PM000530346BFD1637@aca4464e.ipt.aol.com>,
jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
> Dan Espen wrote:
>> Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> writes:
>>
>>> In article <MPG.316b7c2a14d4f4a698a077@news.eternal-september.org>,
>>> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Disaster is more likely to come
>>>> from not understanding that putting too much weight in the wrong place
>>>> can cause control problems than from not understanding what goes on in
>>>> the engine.
>>>
>>> Oh yes. Some drivers overload their car, because they (the drivers) are
>>> so obese. What do you expect when the government is doing everything
>>> thing the can do to increase obesity?
>>
>> Wow!
>>
>> Can only guess that you are blaming your own over eating on the
>> government. No cops in my kitchen, how about you?
>
> If you obeyed what the government recommends you should eat, your
> weight would increase.
The various governments we have are also very guilty of nudging our
processed food towards a content of "very fast carbs", i.e. sugars and
starches, and this has supplanted vegs, fibers, proteins etc.
This has been done all through the value chain, and even though many
government agencies may feign innocence, the total amount of agricultural
subsidies, agricultural regulations, food pricing and regulation etc.
and the purchase regimes for foods (through food stamps etc) all
work towards this end.
So, yes, our governments are pretty much responsible for a lot of the
population's weight gain.
Remember, eat your fish and carrots, like your mom told you to!
-- mrr
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| Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #316014 is a reply to message #316010] |
Mon, 11 April 2016 09:54 |
Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> writes:
> In article <PM000530346BFD1637@aca4464e.ipt.aol.com>,
> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>> Dan Espen wrote:
>>> Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> In article <MPG.316b7c2a14d4f4a698a077@news.eternal-september.org>,
>>>> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Disaster is more likely to come
>>>> > from not understanding that putting too much weight in the wrong place
>>>> > can cause control problems than from not understanding what goes on in
>>>> > the engine.
>>>>
>>>> Oh yes. Some drivers overload their car, because they (the drivers) are
>>>> so obese. What do you expect when the government is doing everything
>>>> thing the can do to increase obesity?
>>>
>>> Wow!
>>>
>>> Can only guess that you are blaming your own over eating on the
>>> government. No cops in my kitchen, how about you?
>>
>> If you obeyed what the government recommends you should eat, your
>> weight would increase.
>
> The various governments we have are also very guilty of nudging our
> processed food towards a content of "very fast carbs", i.e. sugars and
> starches, and this has supplanted vegs, fibers, proteins etc.
>
> This has been done all through the value chain, and even though many
> government agencies may feign innocence, the total amount of agricultural
> subsidies, agricultural regulations, food pricing and regulation etc.
> and the purchase regimes for foods (through food stamps etc) all
> work towards this end.
>
> So, yes, our governments are pretty much responsible for a lot of the
> population's weight gain.
>
> Remember, eat your fish and carrots, like your mom told you to!
Or like the government recommends:
http://health.gov/dietaryguidelines/2015/guidelines/chapter- 1/a-closer-look-inside-healthy-eating-patterns/#food-groups
<http://tinyurl.com/hu3hvtu>
--
Dan Espen
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| Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #316016 is a reply to message #316013] |
Mon, 11 April 2016 11:43 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> wrote:
> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
>
>> Dan Espen wrote:
>>> Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> In article <MPG.316b7c2a14d4f4a698a077@news.eternal-september.org>,
>>>> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Disaster is more likely to come
>>>> > from not understanding that putting too much weight in the wrong place
>>>> > can cause control problems than from not understanding what goes on in
>>>> > the engine.
>>>>
>>>> Oh yes. Some drivers overload their car, because they (the drivers) are
>>>> so obese. What do you expect when the government is doing everything
>>>> thing the can do to increase obesity?
>>>
>>> Wow!
>>>
>>> Can only guess that you are blaming your own over eating on the
>>> government. No cops in my kitchen, how about you?
>>
>> If you obeyed what the government recommends you should eat, your
>> weight would increase.
>>
>> /BAH
>
> Feel free to point out why:
>
> http://health.gov/dietaryguidelines/2015/guidelines/
>
> Here I am banging my head against a rock wall.
>
> For those that can actually read and understand things,
> here are the recommended calories:
>
> http://health.gov/dietaryguidelines/2015/guidelines/appendix -2/
>
As others have said, the government giveth and the government taketh away.
They give large subsidies to producers of sugar and corn (HFCS), so sweets
are relatively cheaper than they should be. It's like grocery coupons - I
never see coupons for broccoli or kale, but always do for soda and potato
chips.
--
Pete
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| Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #316017 is a reply to message #316014] |
Mon, 11 April 2016 12:48 |
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Originally posted by: JimP
On Mon, 11 Apr 2016 09:54:58 -0400, Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net>
wrote:
> Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> writes:
>
>> In article <PM000530346BFD1637@aca4464e.ipt.aol.com>,
>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>> Dan Espen wrote:
>>>> Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>> > In article <MPG.316b7c2a14d4f4a698a077@news.eternal-september.org>,
>>>> > "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> Disaster is more likely to come
>>>> >> from not understanding that putting too much weight in the wrong place
>>>> >> can cause control problems than from not understanding what goes on in
>>>> >> the engine.
>>>> >
>>>> > Oh yes. Some drivers overload their car, because they (the drivers) are
>>>> > so obese. What do you expect when the government is doing everything
>>>> > thing the can do to increase obesity?
>>>>
>>>> Wow!
>>>>
>>>> Can only guess that you are blaming your own over eating on the
>>>> government. No cops in my kitchen, how about you?
>>>
>>> If you obeyed what the government recommends you should eat, your
>>> weight would increase.
>>
>> The various governments we have are also very guilty of nudging our
>> processed food towards a content of "very fast carbs", i.e. sugars and
>> starches, and this has supplanted vegs, fibers, proteins etc.
>>
>> This has been done all through the value chain, and even though many
>> government agencies may feign innocence, the total amount of agricultural
>> subsidies, agricultural regulations, food pricing and regulation etc.
>> and the purchase regimes for foods (through food stamps etc) all
>> work towards this end.
>>
>> So, yes, our governments are pretty much responsible for a lot of the
>> population's weight gain.
>>
>> Remember, eat your fish and carrots, like your mom told you to!
>
> Or like the government recommends:
>
> http://health.gov/dietaryguidelines/2015/guidelines/chapter- 1/a-closer-look-inside-healthy-eating-patterns/#food-groups
>
> <http://tinyurl.com/hu3hvtu>
The food groups pyramid is subjected to influence from special
interest groups like the beef industry.
--
JimP.
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| Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #316018 is a reply to message #316016] |
Mon, 11 April 2016 13:16 |
Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
> Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> wrote:
>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
>>
>>> Dan Espen wrote:
>>>> Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>> > In article <MPG.316b7c2a14d4f4a698a077@news.eternal-september.org>,
>>>> > "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> Disaster is more likely to come
>>>> >> from not understanding that putting too much weight in the wrong place
>>>> >> can cause control problems than from not understanding what goes on in
>>>> >> the engine.
>>>> >
>>>> > Oh yes. Some drivers overload their car, because they (the drivers) are
>>>> > so obese. What do you expect when the government is doing everything
>>>> > thing the can do to increase obesity?
>>>>
>>>> Wow!
>>>>
>>>> Can only guess that you are blaming your own over eating on the
>>>> government. No cops in my kitchen, how about you?
>>>
>>> If you obeyed what the government recommends you should eat, your
>>> weight would increase.
>>>
>>> /BAH
>>
>> Feel free to point out why:
>>
>> http://health.gov/dietaryguidelines/2015/guidelines/
>>
>> Here I am banging my head against a rock wall.
>>
>> For those that can actually read and understand things,
>> here are the recommended calories:
>>
>> http://health.gov/dietaryguidelines/2015/guidelines/appendix -2/
>
> As others have said, the government giveth and the government taketh away.
> They give large subsidies to producers of sugar and corn (HFCS), so sweets
> are relatively cheaper than they should be. It's like grocery coupons - I
> never see coupons for broccoli or kale, but always do for soda and potato
> chips.
No one from the "government" forces you to eat any of that stuff.
Seriously, blaming the government for what you eat is ridiculous.
And that document cited above tells you not to eat junk food.
I know current RW culture blames everything on the government,
but blaming the government for overeating points at a mental
deficit in the blamer.
--
Dan Espen
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| Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #316019 is a reply to message #316017] |
Mon, 11 April 2016 13:20 |
Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> writes:
> On Mon, 11 Apr 2016 09:54:58 -0400, Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> writes:
>>
>>> In article <PM000530346BFD1637@aca4464e.ipt.aol.com>,
>>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>>> Dan Espen wrote:
>>>> > Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> writes:
>>>> >
>>>> >> In article <MPG.316b7c2a14d4f4a698a077@news.eternal-september.org>,
>>>> >> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> Disaster is more likely to come
>>>> >>> from not understanding that putting too much weight in the wrong place
>>>> >>> can cause control problems than from not understanding what goes on in
>>>> >>> the engine.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Oh yes. Some drivers overload their car, because they (the drivers) are
>>>> >> so obese. What do you expect when the government is doing everything
>>>> >> thing the can do to increase obesity?
>>>> >
>>>> > Wow!
>>>> >
>>>> > Can only guess that you are blaming your own over eating on the
>>>> > government. No cops in my kitchen, how about you?
>>>>
>>>> If you obeyed what the government recommends you should eat, your
>>>> weight would increase.
>>>
>>> The various governments we have are also very guilty of nudging our
>>> processed food towards a content of "very fast carbs", i.e. sugars and
>>> starches, and this has supplanted vegs, fibers, proteins etc.
>>>
>>> This has been done all through the value chain, and even though many
>>> government agencies may feign innocence, the total amount of agricultural
>>> subsidies, agricultural regulations, food pricing and regulation etc.
>>> and the purchase regimes for foods (through food stamps etc) all
>>> work towards this end.
>>>
>>> So, yes, our governments are pretty much responsible for a lot of the
>>> population's weight gain.
>>>
>>> Remember, eat your fish and carrots, like your mom told you to!
>>
>> Or like the government recommends:
>>
>> http://health.gov/dietaryguidelines/2015/guidelines/chapter- 1/a-closer-look-inside-healthy-eating-patterns/#food-groups
>>
>> <http://tinyurl.com/hu3hvtu>
>
> The food groups pyramid is subjected to influence from special
> interest groups like the beef industry.
I'm sure every food industry group wishes they could force
the outcome, but I see no reason to conclude that they
were successful.
Beef is good for you in limited quantities.
If you think the government is recommending too much beef,
point to your conflicting science.
--
Dan Espen
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| Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #316028 is a reply to message #316010] |
Mon, 11 April 2016 15:02 |
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Originally posted by: 3899jk
"Morten Reistad" <first@last.name.invalid> wrote in message
news:bmhstc-q78.ln1@sambook.reistad.name...
> In article <PM000530346BFD1637@aca4464e.ipt.aol.com>,
> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>> Dan Espen wrote:
>>> Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> In article <MPG.316b7c2a14d4f4a698a077@news.eternal-september.org>,
>>>> "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Disaster is more likely to come
>>>> > from not understanding that putting too much weight in the wrong place
>>>> > can cause control problems than from not understanding what goes on in
>>>> > the engine.
>>>>
>>>> Oh yes. Some drivers overload their car, because they (the drivers) are
>>>> so obese. What do you expect when the government is doing everything
>>>> thing the can do to increase obesity?
>>>
>>> Wow!
>>>
>>> Can only guess that you are blaming your own over eating on the
>>> government. No cops in my kitchen, how about you?
>>
>> If you obeyed what the government recommends you should eat, your
>> weight would increase.
>
> The various governments we have are also very guilty of nudging our
> processed food towards a content of "very fast carbs", i.e. sugars and
> starches, and this has supplanted vegs, fibers, proteins etc.
>
> This has been done all through the value chain, and even though many
> government agencies may feign innocence, the total amount of agricultural
> subsidies, agricultural regulations, food pricing and regulation etc.
> and the purchase regimes for foods (through food stamps etc) all
> work towards this end.
That isn't the same as "the government is doing
everything thing the can do to increase obesity"
And agricultural regulation, food pricing and
regulation doesn’t increase obesity anyway.
Its hard to argue that even food stamps do given that
the alternative is fast food which is much easier to
become obese with.
> So, yes, our governments are pretty much responsible
> for a lot of the population's weight gain.
I still don’t buy your much more reduced claim.
> Remember, eat your fish and carrots, like your mom told you to!
Mine tried to make me eat broccoli and when she lost
that fight, wasn’t actually stupid enough to try that again.
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