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OT again: Google Translate [message #308414] Wed, 13 January 2016 16:05 Go to next message
Brian is currently offline  Brian
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.anime.misc

Google translate is pretty good with individual words such as "fork,"
"shredded," or "ice," but I was wondering how it would do on phrases, so
I typed in "My name is Brian Christiansen" and had it translate that to
Japanese.

It gave as the Japanese characters (not sure if it is Hirigana, Katakana,
or some mixture, and I hope the japanese characters come through and not
a bunch of lines or question marks): " 私の名前はブライアン・クリスチャンであり ます ".

For the Romanji (i think) it gave the following: "Watashinonamaeha
Buraian kurisuchandearimasu."

I don't speak or read Japanese, but I can recognize a few things.

Obviously "Buraian kurisuchandearimasu" is a phonetic translation of my
name, "watashi" means either "I" or "me" depending on context (I think),
and "no" is the equivalent of "'s", indicating possessiveness, making
"watashino" translate as my or mine.

In that sense, I think the translation is "correct," however to my
understanding, "watashi" is used mainly (exclusively?) by females and
"boku" is is used mainly (exclusively?) by males, so in in sense is it
"incorrect?"

Then I got to wondering how Google translate would do on something like
the novel series "The Wheel of Time," or a dub for some anime series.

I doubt it would produce "gibberish," but how accurate would it be in
that the translation tells the "same story" that Robert Jordan/Brand
Sanderson or the writer of the aninme wanted to tell, with all the same
nuances and emphases that they intended?

Also sometimes the characters use the "old tongue," which was the
language that was spoken by the ancestors of the characters in the book.

As far as I can tell it is not a "real language," but some words that
Jordan just made up.

For example, one of the words in the "old tongue" is "toh," which, as far
as I can tell means something like the Klingon concept of "honor."

How would Google translate handle this. Would it just translate it
phonetically, would it use the closest English word (toe?), or what?

Brian Christiansen
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Re: OT again: Google Translate [message #308439 is a reply to message #308414] Wed, 13 January 2016 19:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dave Baranyi is currently offline  Dave Baranyi
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.anime.misc

Brian <brian_christians@hotmail.com> wrote:

Brian -

Given your interest in anime and you curiosity about the Japanese language it
would be worth your while to take an introductory night school course in
Japanese. I suspect that some nearby college or university might offer an
introductory course in their adult education courses.

> Google translate is pretty good with individual words such as "fork,"
> "shredded," or "ice," but I was wondering how it would do on phrases, so
> I typed in "My name is Brian Christiansen" and had it translate that to
> Japanese.
>
> It gave as the Japanese characters (not sure if it is Hirigana, Katakana,
> or some mixture, and I hope the japanese characters come through and not
> a bunch of lines or question marks): " 私の名前はブライアン・クリスチャンであり ま
す".
>
> For the Romanji (i think) it gave the following: "Watashinonamaeha
> Buraian kurisuchandearimasu."
>
> I don't speak or read Japanese, but I can recognize a few things.
>
> Obviously "Buraian kurisuchandearimasu" is a phonetic translation of my
> name, "watashi" means either "I" or "me" depending on context (I think),
> and "no" is the equivalent of "'s", indicating possessiveness, making
> "watashino" translate as my or mine.
>
> In that sense, I think the translation is "correct," however to my
> understanding, "watashi" is used mainly (exclusively?) by females and
> "boku" is is used mainly (exclusively?) by males, so in in sense is it
> "incorrect?"
>

"Watashi" is generally used in formal situations, regardless of gender. So if
you take a business Japanese introductory course you will be taught to use
watashi.

You will sometimes hear "watakushi" used in even more formal situations, but
as my friend from Osaka once commented, you would normally only use that if
you were speaking to the Emperor... (lol)

"Boku" is used by boys and younger males in casual situations. In business
and formal situations men will use "watashi". In informal situations men will
sometimes use "ore", which you hear used a lot by "toughs" in anime, but only
if they are on roughly equal or superior terms to the listener. (Don't expect
to hear it as a foreigner.)


> Then I got to wondering how Google translate would do on something like
> the novel series "The Wheel of Time," or a dub for some anime series.
>
> I doubt it would produce "gibberish," but how accurate would it be in
> that the translation tells the "same story" that Robert Jordan/Brand
> Sanderson or the writer of the anime wanted to tell, with all the same
> nuances and emphases that they intended?
>

It will probably give gibberish.

> Also sometimes the characters use the "old tongue," which was the
> language that was spoken by the ancestors of the characters in the book.
>
> As far as I can tell it is not a "real language," but some words that
> Jordan just made up.
>
> For example, one of the words in the "old tongue" is "toh," which, as far
> as I can tell means something like the Klingon concept of "honor."
>
> How would Google translate handle this. Would it just translate it
> phonetically, would it use the closest English word (toe?), or what?
>
> Brian Christiansen
>

Just don't use Goggle translate. That will save you lots of trouble.

Dave Baranyi



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Re: OT again: Google Translate [message #308451 is a reply to message #308414] Wed, 13 January 2016 21:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brian is currently offline  Brian
Messages: 441
Registered: February 2012
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.anime.misc

On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 00:22:03 +0000, Dave Baranyi wrote:

> Given your interest in anime and you curiosity about the Japanese
> language it would be worth your while to take an introductory night
> school course in Japanese. I suspect that some nearby college or
> university might offer an introductory course in their adult education
> courses.
>
Hmm...perhaps I will look into that someday. Pima college perhaps offers
such a course.

> Just don't use Goggle translate. That will save you lots of trouble.
>
The "Wheel of Time" novels all start with the same sentence, or at least
chapter 1, after the prologue, does. The sentence is as follows:

The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that
become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when
the Age that gave it birth comes again. In one Age, called the Third Age
by some, an Age yet to come, and Age long past, a wind rose in the
Mountains of Mist. The wind was not the beginning, there are neither
Beginnings nor endings to the turning of The Wheel of Time. But it was a
beginning.

Google translate gives the following translation:

Japanese characters (probably a combination of hirigana, katakana, and
kanji):

時の車輪が回転し、年齢は伝説となって思い 出を残して、来て、渡します。伝説は神話す るフェード、およびそ
れに出産した時代が再び来るときでも神話は 長い間忘れられています。 1歳で、年齢はまだ来て、いくつかに
よってサードエイジと呼ばれ、年齢は長い過 去が、風が霧の山脈上昇しました。風は時の 車輪の回転にもない
始まりもエンディングがありますが、初めは なかったです。しかし、それは始まりました

Phonetic:

Toki no sharin ga kaiten shi, nenrei wa densetsu to natte omoide o
nokoshite, kite, watashimasu. Densetsu wa shinwa suru fēdo, oyobi sore ni
shussan shita jidai ga futatabi kuru toki demo shinwa wa nagaiai wasure
rarete imasu. 1-Sai de, nenrei wa mada kite, ikutsu ka ni yotte sādoeiji
to yoba re, nenrei wa nagai kako ga,-fū ga kiri no sanmyaku jōshō
shimashita. Kaze wa toki no sharin no kaiten ni mo nai hajimari mo
endingu ga arimasuga, hajime wa nakattadesu. Shikashi, soreha
hajimarimashita.

Is the translation a bunch of Japanese words/characters randomly thrown
together. I can't say for certain, but I doubt it.

Does the translation "mean" the same thing as what Robert Jordan
intended. Again, I can't say for certain, but again, I doubt it.

Is it the same as the official translation (I checked and these novels
have been translated to Japanese). Again, I can't say for certain, but I
doubt that also.

Would translating it sentence by sentence yield a bunch of random
Japanese words and symbols at a sentence by sentence level. Again I am
going to say I doubt that as well.

Would it tell the same story that Robert Jordan intended to tell or even
a coherent story. I more than just doubt that, I would say the chances
against it are at least 99.9%.

My point is that computer translation is fine for individual words, semi-
OK for phrases, depending on the complexity of the phrase, and not really
all that useful for books and novels, but still somewhat interesting
issues to ponder.

Brian Christiansen
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Re: OT again: Google Translate [message #308468 is a reply to message #308414] Thu, 14 January 2016 00:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brian is currently offline  Brian
Messages: 441
Registered: February 2012
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Senior Member
From Newsgroup: rec.arts.anime.misc

On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 00:22:03 +0000, Dave Baranyi wrote:

I put the Google translate version of the Japanese translation of Robert
Jordan's opening back into it and had it translate it back to English and
got this:

Rotating the wheel of time , age , leaving memories and become a legend ,
come and pass . Legend to myth fade , and its
Myth has been forgotten for a long time even when the era that gave birth
to Les will come again . In 1 -year-old , age is still to come , to some
Therefore, is referred to as the third age , age long past , the wind was
rising mountains of fog . Not even the rotation of the wheel when the wind
Beginning also has the ending , but it was not the beginning . However ,
it began.

This is "kinda close" or "vaguely similarish" to Robert Jordan's
opening, but not quite the words that are known and loved by WOT fans.

Brian Christiansen
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Re: OT again: Google Translate [message #308469 is a reply to message #308468] Thu, 14 January 2016 02:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Arne Luft is currently offline  Arne Luft
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Registered: March 2012
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Senior Member
From Newsgroup: rec.arts.anime.misc

On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 05:52:06 -0000 (UTC), Brian
<brian_christians@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I put the Google translate version of the Japanese translation of Robert
> Jordan's opening back into it and had it translate it back to English

Without some knowledge of Japanese grammar, there is no way to
translate it with the help of a machine only.



Examples:

Spice and Wolf, novel, Vol. 4, page 16


Japanese in Romaji:

Horo ga kiba o muite kureba kochiramo mukaeutsu kôjitsu ga dekirushi,
mushi o shite kurebashi kaesu koto mo dekiru.


direct translation:

If Holo the fangs is baring, this a to fight back an assault excuse
makes, and if she ignores him, in return that as well he makes.


adapted translation:

If Holo had bared her teath, that would have given Lawrence an excuse
to fight back. If she'd ignored him, he could have her ignored in
turn.


Google:

Holo is to here can also ambush excuse if me ?-I fangs, it is also
possible to be if me to ignore return.






Next example:


Spice and Wolf, novel, Vol. 4, page 17

kono atari no chiki ni wa Rorensu mo ichido mo kita koto da, tochikan
ga mattakunai.

In this region of the country Lawrence not once has been, knowledge of
the place completly none he has.

Lawrence had never been to this region before and lacked any sense of
the lay of the land.


google:
It also becomes thing came even once Lawrence is in the area of this
neighborhood, there are no land can.





Well, if you need single words translated, it is better to use an
online Japanese-English dictionary.


Btw, no, I am not good in Japanese. It is very hard work for me to
translate something. I only speak three languages more or less
fluently: German, bad German, and some kind of Bavarian.
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Re: OT again: Google Translate [message #308475 is a reply to message #308414] Thu, 14 January 2016 03:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brian is currently offline  Brian
Messages: 441
Registered: February 2012
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.anime.misc

On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 08:20:57 +0100, Arne Luft wrote:

> Without some knowledge of Japanese grammar, there is no way to translate
> it with the help of a machine only.
>
<snip several examples>
> Well, if you need single words translated, it is better to use an online
> Japanese-English dictionary.
>
I think I can say with a high degree of certainty that I will never need
anything in Japanese translated.

Even for Spanish, living in Tucson, AZ, I will probably not need anything
translated very often.

I just fed the sentence into google translate to see what I would get,
out of, I suppose, an intellectual curiosity.

For individual words, I would think that google translate uses a database
that is made from a Japanese-English (or English-Spanish or Japanese-
German, or whatever-whatever) dictionary.

Translation from one language to another, especially when they have very
different grammatical structures, becomes quite difficult to automate.

Brian Christiansen
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Re: OT again: Google Translate [message #308497 is a reply to message #308469] Thu, 14 January 2016 10:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sellers is currently offline  sellers
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.anime.misc

On 01/13/2016 11:20 PM, Arne Luft wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 05:52:06 -0000 (UTC), Brian
> <brian_christians@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I put the Google translate version of the Japanese translation of Robert
>> Jordan's opening back into it and had it translate it back to English
>
> Without some knowledge of Japanese grammar, there is no way to
> translate it with the help of a machine only.
>
>
>
> Examples:
>
> Spice and Wolf, novel, Vol. 4, page 16
>
>
> Japanese in Romaji:
>
> Horo ga kiba o muite kureba kochiramo mukaeutsu kôjitsu ga dekirushi,
> mushi o shite kurebashi kaesu koto mo dekiru.
>
>
> direct translation:
>
> If Holo the fangs is baring, this a to fight back an assault excuse
> makes, and if she ignores him, in return that as well he makes.
>
>
> adapted translation:
>
> If Holo had bared her teath, that would have given Lawrence an excuse
> to fight back. If she'd ignored him, he could have her ignored in
> turn.
>
>
> Google:
>
> Holo is to here can also ambush excuse if me ?-I fangs, it is also
> possible to be if me to ignore return.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Next example:
>
>
> Spice and Wolf, novel, Vol. 4, page 17
>
> kono atari no chiki ni wa Rorensu mo ichido mo kita koto da, tochikan
> ga mattakunai.
>
> In this region of the country Lawrence not once has been, knowledge of
> the place completly none he has.
>
> Lawrence had never been to this region before and lacked any sense of
> the lay of the land.
>
>
> google:
> It also becomes thing came even once Lawrence is in the area of this
> neighborhood, there are no land can.
>
>
>
>
>
> Well, if you need single words translated, it is better to use an
> online Japanese-English dictionary.
>
>
> Btw, no, I am not good in Japanese. It is very hard work for me to
> translate something. I only speak three languages more or less
> fluently: German, bad German, and some kind of Bavarian.
>

What name are you giving to the English language you are writing
so well, Arne? Bad German or some sort of Bavarian?

Anyway thank for your illustration of the problems of translation.

bliss
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Re: OT again: Google Translate [message #308498 is a reply to message #308469] Thu, 14 January 2016 12:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GeoffC is currently offline  GeoffC
Messages: 308
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
From Newsgroup: rec.arts.anime.misc

Some time ago I translated some chapters of manga from Japanese into
English. Google Translate was generally of some help in indicating the
sense, (alongside translations of the individual words) but the output
was far from being a polished or perfect translation.
I also used Google Translate to translate a movie script from Italian to
English, and my recollected impression is that it worked better with
European languages.

On 14/01/2016 07:20, Arne Luft wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 05:52:06 -0000 (UTC), Brian
> <brian_christians@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I put the Google translate version of the Japanese translation of Robert
>> Jordan's opening back into it and had it translate it back to English
>
> Without some knowledge of Japanese grammar, there is no way to
> translate it with the help of a machine only.
>
>
>
> Examples:
>
> Spice and Wolf, novel, Vol. 4, page 16
>
>
> Japanese in Romaji:
>
> Horo ga kiba o muite kureba kochiramo mukaeutsu kôjitsu ga dekirushi,
> mushi o shite kurebashi kaesu koto mo dekiru.
>
>
> direct translation:
>
> If Holo the fangs is baring, this a to fight back an assault excuse
> makes, and if she ignores him, in return that as well he makes.
>
>
> adapted translation:
>
> If Holo had bared her teath, that would have given Lawrence an excuse
> to fight back. If she'd ignored him, he could have her ignored in
> turn.
>
>
> Google:
>
> Holo is to here can also ambush excuse if me ?-I fangs, it is also
> possible to be if me to ignore return.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Next example:
>
>
> Spice and Wolf, novel, Vol. 4, page 17
>
> kono atari no chiki ni wa Rorensu mo ichido mo kita koto da, tochikan
> ga mattakunai.
>
> In this region of the country Lawrence not once has been, knowledge of
> the place completly none he has.
>
> Lawrence had never been to this region before and lacked any sense of
> the lay of the land.
>
>
> google:
> It also becomes thing came even once Lawrence is in the area of this
> neighborhood, there are no land can.
>
>
>
>
>
> Well, if you need single words translated, it is better to use an
> online Japanese-English dictionary.
>
>
> Btw, no, I am not good in Japanese. It is very hard work for me to
> translate something. I only speak three languages more or less
> fluently: German, bad German, and some kind of Bavarian.


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Re: OT again: Google Translate [message #310147 is a reply to message #308414] Wed, 27 January 2016 12:53 Go to previous message
dot_warner17@hotmail. is currently offline  dot_warner17@hotmail.
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Junior Member
From Newsgroup: rec.arts.anime.misc

I'm Chinese and I use Google translate only as a phrase dictionary for individual words (and even then it doesn't always produce what I need), as I've noticed that definitely struggles with anything more complicated than something on the level of "See Spot Run"--past that, it doesn't know how to parse the grammatical structure of Chinese in a way that makes sense in English (or vice versa).

And forget idiomatic expressions, unless there's already a commonly agreed upon equivalent in the target language. At that point the translated phrase ends up sounding like something a person from Darmok would say.
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