Article-I.D.: PANDA.12172635152.9.MRC
Posted: Sat Jan  4 17:01:58 1986
Date-Received: Mon, 6-Jan-86 03:07:22 EST
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Organization: The ARPA Internet
Lines: 37


     Well, Tramiel has done it again.  It was just announced that
the 520ST will sell without a monitor in toy stores for less than
$300.  The computer specialty stores are *furious*, many "I told
you so"'s are floating around.  It's just what he did with the
C64 when he was at Commodore.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if
the computer stores dump the ST en masse, even with Tramiel's
promised 1040ST for them only (we know how much THAT promise is
worth).

     I'm glad I didn't waste my money on an ST the way I did on
the 8 bit series (400,800,1200XL).  I saw what once were serious
graphics engines (that happened to play neat games too) become
toys only, and it's happening all over again.

			Bye Bye Atari Pie

Bye, Bye, Atari Pie
Tramiel did it with the C64 and now with the 520ST
It'll sell at toy stores for less than $100 times 3
So much for stores where computers are the speciality
So much for stores where computers are the speciality

Have you heard about deja vu?
Do you have faith in Tramiel too,
Just cause his salesmen tell you so?
Now do you believe that it'll continue to sell
When the computer stores tell Atari to "Go to Hell"
And can you see Amiga sales really grow?

Well I know you love your 520ST
Cause I saw you hacking on it 'till 3
You all felt it was great news
Now what'll you do about the Tramiel bad marketing blues?

...etc...
-------

Article-I.D.: ucbvax.8601091514.AA03049
Posted: Thu Jan  9 10:08:40 1986
Date-Received: Fri, 10-Jan-86 05:34:54 EST
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Organization: The ARPA Internet
Lines: 97

***********just in case something gets the munchies************

    There have been a number of comments concerning Atari selling the ST in
general merchandise stores at a lower price than in the computer specialty
stores.  Some have stated that this makes the 520ST a 'toy' computer.
Others have said that it will irritate the computer specialty stores but
that doesn't matter because we don't need them anyway.  I disagree with 
both points of view.  Where something is sold does not determine its quality.
And, the computer specialty stores are as much a part of the computer industry
as are the hardware manufacturers and software developers.  Whether the
computer specialty stores will be irritated by this new development depends
on what Atari gives them in compensation.  If this change in merchandising
policy is handled correctly by Atari, it should benefit software developers
and computer specialty stores alike.

    You can develop gigabytes of software, but, if there is no one to buy
it, what is the point?  Atari sold the ST in specialty stores at the lowest
price it could to build a base of developers and cash flow.  Apparently
Atari is satisfied that they can now go on to the next stage in marketing
their product.  By selling in general merchandise stores at a lower cost,
Atari makes the product available to home users (as opposed to developers).
These people want machines with software; they don't want to pay a lot for
them.  If the machines sell in the quantity one would expect from the quality
and price, an enormous consumer base will be established for the developers'
software, and the even greater cash flow will allow prices to remain low.  This
will mean more money in everyone's pockets and an enormous library of off the
shelf software for *all* ST owners.

    Now to the specialty stores.  Specialty stores whether they sell computers,
cars, furniture, or whatever are staffed by salespeople.  Often salespeople
are pushy and many don't know as much about the product they are selling as
as one would expect.  However, we can hope that the people who have given
the computer specialty stores a bad reputation are increasingly in the
minority.  Specialty stores stock a much wider assortment of whatever their
specialty is than do mass market general merchandise stores.  A furniture
store doesn't sell just one type of couch; a computer specialty store doesn't
just sell one printer or one modem.  By specializing in computer equipment,
the computer store can afford to carry a wide selection of software,  a number
of printers, a number of modems, and, yes, a number of computers.  The best
stores have training and consultation services that do help the buyer.  They
compliment the general merchandisers by offering a wider range of goods and
services.  Whatever else might be said about the specialty stores they sell
variety.  (And, no, I do not work, and never have worked, as a salesman for
computers or anything else.)  If there weren't computer specialty stores
(including mail order firms), the choices for all users would be severely
limited.  They provide the market that allows machines like the Atari to be
developed and sold.  In addition, computer specialty stores provide the cachet
needed to enter the business market.  Businesses like to deal with specialty
stores because of the variety they offer, the expertise that is available from
the best stores, and, since most businesses specialize, the fact that these
stores specialize.  Needless to say sales to the business community are nice
to have.

    So why undercut the computer specialty stores?  The article I read in 
"USA Today" (12/27/85) did not make it seem like the specialty stores would be
undercut by the prices of the general merchandise stores.  Rather, it stated
that the current version of the 520ST would be sold for an *undisclosed* lesser
amount in the general merchandise stores and that a 1 megabyte version would be
sold through the specialty stores at the current price ($799 mono; $999 color).
We all know that a knowledgeable person can do the upgrade to 1 meg for under
$50; so either the discount to the general merchandisers will be minimal, or
the specialty stores will have to be offered something else to make their
version of the product more attractive.  I have heard rumors that a DSDD drive
would be bundled with the 1 meg ST in the specialty stores.  (Confirmation or
other rumors would be appreciated.)  Since the double sided drive retails for
about $100 more than the single sided drive there might be some room for play
here.  With the volume sales coming from the general merchandisers, Atari might
be able to eat this cost and allow the specialty stores to sell the 1 meg ST
with the DSDD drive for the same price as, or at a nominal increase from, the
current 520ST.  At the same time, specialty stores are going to carry greater
varieties of software and be the likely merchandisers of higher priced add-ons
such as hard disks and CD ROMs.

    Of course there are a number of people, many of them developers, that have
already bought 520ST's for $799 or $999.  If this change in marketing policy by
Atari is going to work, these people will have to be appeased also.  If the
dealers are going to get a 1 meg ST for the same cost as the 520ST the current
owners should be provided the upgrade at no, or minimal, cost.  And, if a DSDD
drive is put in the dealers package, current owners should be able to trade up
to the DSDD drive or in some way be compensated.  This appeasement is necessary,
I think, because many of the current owners are developers.  Sales through the
general merchandisers depend on software being available.  Software depends on
those developers; so the developers have to be kept happy.

   In conclusion, if this marketing change is handled properly, it will benefit
everyone.  If it isn't, *then* the ST may become a toy computer.  Let's limit
further discussion on this topic to facts, rumors, and titilating speculation.
Puerile and sophomoric comments about machines of whatever persuasion should
either be sent to net.flame or kept to oneself.

Al Gaspar 
USAMC ALMSA, Box 1578, St. Louis, MO  63188-1578
(314)263-5118
!seismo!brl!gaspar@almsa-1.arpa

DISCLAIMER:  These ramblings are my own, and I have no affiliation with Atari
or any other computer manufacturers, sellers . . .

Article-I.D.: csd2.3280003
Posted: Thu Jan  9 12:10:00 1986
Date-Received: Fri, 10-Jan-86 05:48:09 EST
References: <12172635152.9.MRC@PANDA>
Organization: New York University
Lines: 18

[]
[color=blue]> What is the difference where the 520ST is sold?  Just as long as the price is[/color]
[color=blue]> cheaper.  Why should anyone want to supplement a 'computer store?' where[/color]
[color=blue]> half the time, the saleperson is just as ignorant about the machine as a[/color]
[color=blue]> typical K-Mart salesperson.  What is the advantage of paying 300.00 more just[/color]
[color=blue]> because it is sold in a computer store?  [/color]

Wow! For once, something that I agree totally with Ray about!
Give me a machine with this kind of horsepower and you can
sell it in Crackerjack boxes if you want - I'll still buy it.

Isaac Dimitrovsky
allegra!cmcl2!csd2!dimitrov   (l in cmcl2 is letter l not number 1)
251 Mercer Street, New York NY 10012     (212) 674-8652

You know the great thing about tv? If something important happens anywhere at
all in the world, no matter what time of the day or night, you can always
change the channel - Jim Ignatowski

Article-I.D.: rocheste.14365
Posted: Mon Jan  6 12:35:59 1986
Date-Received: Fri, 10-Jan-86 06:18:43 EST
References: <12172635152.9.MRC@PANDA>
Organization: U. of Rochester, CS Dept.
Lines: 30

[color=blue]>  [/color]
[color=blue]>       Well, Tramiel has done it again.  It was just announced that[/color]
[color=blue]>  the 520ST will sell without a monitor in toy stores for less than[/color]
[color=blue]>  $300.  The computer specialty stores are *furious*, many "I told[/color]
[color=blue]>  you so"'s are floating around.  It's just what he did with the[/color]
[color=blue]>  C64 when he was at Commodore.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if[/color]
[color=blue]>  the computer stores dump the ST en masse, even with Tramiel's[/color]
[color=blue]>  promised 1040ST for them only (we know how much THAT promise is[/color]
[color=blue]>  worth).[/color]
[color=blue]>  [/color]
[color=blue]>       I'm glad I didn't waste my money on an ST the way I did on[/color]
[color=blue]>  the 8 bit series (400,800,1200XL).  I saw what once were serious[/color]
[color=blue]>  graphics engines (that happened to play neat games too) become[/color]
[color=blue]>  toys only, and it's happening all over again.[/color]
[color=blue]>  [/color]
[color=blue]>  			Bye Bye Atari Pie[/color]
[color=blue]>  [/color]
What is the difference where the 520ST is sold?  Just as long as the price is
cheaper.  Why should anyone want to supplement a 'computer store?' where
half the time, the saleperson is just as ignorant about the machine as a
typical K-Mart salesperson.  What is the advantage of paying 300.00 more just
because it is sold in a computer store?  
And the machine doesn't magically turn into a toy just because it happens to be
sold from K-Mart.  If it is a good machine then it is a good machine, period.
It is strange attitudes that hurt machines, not marketing.  The public has been
duped long enough with outrageously over-priced machines such as the likes of
all Apple products.

ray (mass marketing is OK if you don't mind being out-programmed by a 10 year 
old kid who was able to afford to get one for his birthday.)

Article-I.D.: aum.422
Posted: Thu Jan  9 11:31:42 1986
Date-Received: Sat, 11-Jan-86 06:20:59 EST
References: <12172635152.9.MRC@PANDA> <14365@rochester.UUCP>
Organization: The Aurora Systems Bunch
Lines: 25

[color=teal]>>  [/color]
[color=teal]>>       Well, Tramiel has done it again.  It was just announced that[/color]
[color=teal]>>  the 520ST will sell without a monitor in toy stores for less than[/color]
[color=teal]>>  $300.  The computer specialty stores are *furious*, many "I told[/color]
[color=teal]>>  you so"'s are floating around.  It's just what he did with the[/color]
[color=teal]>>  C64 when he was at Commodore.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if[/color]
[color=teal]>>  the computer stores dump the ST en masse, even with Tramiel's[/color]
[color=teal]>>  promised 1040ST for them only (we know how much THAT promise is[/color]
[color=teal]>>  worth).[/color]
[color=teal]>>  [/color]
[color=blue]>  What is the difference where the 520ST is sold?  Just as long as the price is[/color]
[color=blue]>  cheaper.  Why should anyone want to supplement a 'computer store?' where[/color]
[color=blue]>  half the time, the saleperson is just as ignorant about the machine as a[/color]

Hear, Hear. I would think that the people on the net who do not need the hand-
holding and advice of someone who knows less than them, Computer store salesman,
would welcome the opportunity to get the best deal possible. Are you guys 
against a good deal?! Since Atari makes the development kit available, then the
money you save can be spent on it. Making it cheap *AND* easy to use.
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                           Erik James Freed
			   Aurora Systems
			   San Francisco, CA
			   {dual,ptsfa}!aum!freed

Article-I.D.: felix.8601101754.AA24009
Posted: Fri Jan 10 12:54:04 1986
Date-Received: Sat, 11-Jan-86 06:56:32 EST
References: <8601091514.AA03049@ucbvax.berkeley.edu>
Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
Organization: FileNet Corp., Costa Mesa, Ca.
Lines: 5

Hurray!  A rational comment!

========================================
Preston L. Bannister
USENET:  ucbvax!trwrb!felix!preston

Article-I.D.: ssc-bee.454
Posted: Thu Jan  9 15:40:32 1986
Date-Received: Sat, 11-Jan-86 07:38:18 EST
References: <12172635152.9.MRC@PANDA>
Organization: Boeing Aerospace Co., Seattle, WA
Lines: 16

[color=blue]>  [/color]
[color=blue]>       Well, Tramiel has done it again.  It was just announced that[/color]
[color=blue]>  the 520ST will sell without a monitor in toy stores for less than[/color]
[color=blue]>  $300...[/color]
  
  Hooray!  I bought a C64 at Toys'r'Us a couple of years ago, and now I
  will probably by an ST520 there.  Soon there will we millions of ST's
  in use with reams of software at reasonable prices.  No more supporting
  some flaky, overagressive, undereducated speciality salesperson.

  Thanks, Jack Tramiel, you HAVE done it again!

  Bye, bye Amiga (with a tinge of regret).
-- 
	Mike Eve     Boeing Aerospace, Seattle
	...uw-beaver!ssc-vax!ssc-bee!eve

Article-I.D.: aum.424
Posted: Tue Jan 14 00:13:44 1986
Date-Received: Wed, 15-Jan-86 08:17:23 EST
References: <8601091514.AA03049@ucbvax.berkeley.edu> <8601101754.AA24009@felix.UUCP>
Organization: The Aurora Systems Bunch
Lines: 13

[color=blue]>  Hurray!  A rational comment![/color]
[color=blue]>  [/color]
[color=blue]>  ========================================[/color]
[color=blue]>  Preston L. Bannister[/color]
[color=blue]>  USENET:  ucbvax!trwrb!felix!preston[/color]

Where! Where! Which way did it go? Which way did it go?
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                           Erik James Freed
			   Aurora Systems
			   San Francisco, CA
			   {dual,ptsfa}!aum!freed

Article-I.D.: ccivax.342
Posted: Thu Jan 16 19:11:42 1986
Date-Received: Sun, 19-Jan-86 04:19:02 EST
References: <12172635152.9.MRC@PANDA>
Sender: guest@ccivax.UUCP
Organization: CCI Telephony Systems Group,  Rochester NY
Lines: 85

[color=blue]>  [/color]
[color=blue]>       Well, Tramiel has done it again.  It was just announced that[/color]
[color=blue]>  the 520ST will sell without a monitor in toy stores for less than[/color]
[color=blue]>  $300.  The computer specialty stores are *furious*, many "I told[/color]
[color=blue]>  you so"'s are floating around.[/color]
[color=blue]>  I wouldn't be at all surprised if[/color]
[color=blue]>  the computer stores dump the ST en masse, even with Tramiel's[/color]
[color=blue]>  promised 1040ST for them only (we know how much THAT promise is[/color]
[color=blue]>  worth).[/color]
[color=blue]>  [/color]

As a former retail person representing the old Atari and Commodore
line when they first came out, I have to respond to this.

When a computer come out for what appears to be a rediculously low price,
Specialty Computer Stores are skeptical, cautious, and greedy.  The profit
margin (in dollars per unit) is much lower for a computer selling for
say $1000 than for a comparable (or even inferior) machine selling for
$2000.  The pressure on the sales people comes from two directions.

The Store wants to make a better "per unit profit" to pay expenses, therefore
salesmen are encouraged to sell more expensive machines and discourage
people from buying the less expensive ones.

Competitors, also discouraging sales of "cheap" computers, will tell some
whopping lies if necessary to prevent the customer from going to another
store where they sell "game machines" and buying a "toy computer".  In fact,
when Atari was selling computers to schools at 3 for the price of 2, one
school board dismissed the Atari as a game machine and removed the merchant
from the bidding list.

If Atari had come out with a VAX 11/780 running full UNIX 4.3 for $300,
the IBM-PC merchants would have called it a "game machine" or a "toy
computer".  How do the ST dhrystone tests compare with a 11/750?

Stores like K-Mart are more concerned with Volume sales.  They would rather
sell lot's of $300 computers than just a few $2000 boxes.  The salesmen
in some stores are even more qualified than those at the Specialty shops,
but even if they're not, there is less pressure to get "commission" from
a $3000 package.

I have actually seen two local stores go bankrupt snubbing the ST.  The
industry moans and gripes about the "Slump" in computer sales, yet when
a computer that could potentially turn the "Slump" into another "Boom"
comes around, the retailers and pundits treat it like a "toy".  There
have been several computers in the under $1000 market, several of them
were "PC Clones" that were "Less than 100% compatible".  Now Commodore
and Atari have created machines that are an order of magnitude more
powerful than "The Original", and they have been declared "Home Computers",
"Game Machines", and "Kid's Toys", but "Not for Serious Business Use".

The Amiga is getting the "Prestige Treatement" because it has a price
tag that people normally associates with "Real Computers".  Of course,
Commodore proved that "Good Press" and high volume are not mutually
exclusive.

The Important thing for Retailers and the industry as a whole to consider
is this:

	For every ST sold, there is one IBM-PC (or clone) that wasn't.

Even though the "PC-Cloners" don't consider the ST a direct competitor,
as more people discover that an ST can do the same "Big 5" business
applications as well or better than "IBM's Finest", the customer is
going to start asking for a "Home Computer" rather than a "Business
Machine".

Anybody remember when "Business Computers Run CP/M" was the means of
discouraging people from buying Atari's and Commodore's.

At $800, Atari has already sold 100,000 ST's in less than 6 months and
the software has only now started coming.  At $300-$400, Atari may sell
100,000 units per MONTH.  Even if the computer stores snub atari completely,
this is a terrific candidate for software that is sold in record shops,
typewriter stores, or even K-Mart. "Yes K-mart shoppers for the next 10
minutes our blue light special will be System V UNIX for the 520ST for
only $19.95! Come and see our other fine software".

On the flip side.

K-Mart has been very reluctant in the past to sell any software other
than that labled by the computer manufacturer.  Getting K-Mart to sell
your software is a little more difficult than getting it into your
local "Computer Shack".  If K-Mart does sell your product, you can
expect a minimum of 10,000 copies just to get started.

Article-I.D.: ccivax.345
Posted: Thu Jan 16 20:48:25 1986
Date-Received: Sun, 19-Jan-86 04:19:16 EST
References: <8601091514.AA03049@ucbvax.berkeley.edu>
Organization: CCI Telephony Systems Group,  Rochester NY
Lines: 46

[color=blue]>  ***********just in case something gets the munchies************[/color]
[color=blue]>  [/color]
[color=blue]>      There have been a number of comments concerning Atari selling the ST in[/color]
[color=blue]>  general merchandise stores at a lower price than in the computer specialty[/color]
[color=blue]>  stores.  Some have stated that this makes the 520ST a 'toy' computer.[/color]
[color=blue]>  [/color]
[color=blue]>      You can develop gigabytes of software, but, if there is no one to buy[/color]
[color=blue]>  it, what is the point?  Atari sold the ST in specialty stores at the lowest[/color]
[color=blue]>  price it could to build a base of developers and cash flow.[/color]
[color=blue]>  By selling in general merchandise stores at a lower cost,[/color]
[color=blue]>  Atari makes the product available to home users (as opposed to developers).[/color]
[color=blue]>  This will mean more money in everyone's pockets and an enormous library of[/color]
[color=blue]>  off the shelf software for *all* ST owners.[/color]
[color=blue]>  [/color]
[color=blue]>      Of course there are a number of people, many of them developers, that have[/color]
[color=blue]>  already bought 520ST's for $799 or $999.[/color]
[color=blue]>   If this change in marketing policy by[/color]
[color=blue]>  Atari is going to work, these people will have to be appeased also.  If the[/color]
[color=blue]>  dealers are going to get a 1 meg ST for the same cost as the 520ST the current[/color]
[color=blue]>  owners should be provided the upgrade at no, or minimal, cost.  And, if a DSDD[/color]
[color=blue]>  drive is put in the dealers package, current owners should be able to trade up[/color]
[color=blue]>  to the DSDD drive or in some way be compensated.  This appeasement is necessary,[/color]
[color=blue]>  I think, because many of the current owners are developers.[/color]

I agree with the basic premise that those who have been buying the ST initially
have been primarily developers.  Those developers can get be "appeased" best
not by rebates for or "free upgrades" but by getting help from Atari in getting
their software (even some of this "public domain stuff") onto the shelves of
stores like K-Mart.  The profits from software sales to non-developers
would pay for the new machines several times over.

I mention "public domain" because their are those who would rather "buy
it off the shelf" than get it off of compuserve, because it is hard to
find what you are looking for on a 300 baud modem.  I've seen a "public
domain" ram-disk on this net, and seen the same basic package sold over
the counter for $15.  It sells well as an "Impulse Item" that doesn't
require a lot of "pitching".

Perhaps Atari will put an "electronic software store" on-line via
telenet or something so that shoppers aren't paying $6.00/hour to "Read
the Ads", but they could Buy the Software for $6-$20 using their VISA.
The Software could be down-loaded, just like any other bulletin board,
but the documentation, micro-floppy... could be sent via regular mail
or picked up at a local "specialty store" in two or three days.
Of course they could still pick up $1-$2/hour for "just browsing" and
still be a "Nice Place to Shop".

Article-I.D.: faron.442
Posted: Wed Jan 22 10:23:50 1986
Date-Received: Fri, 24-Jan-86 21:31:33 EST
References: <8601091514.AA03049@ucbvax.berkeley.edu> <345@ccivax.UUCP>
Reply-To: rjd@faron.UUCP (Robert DeBenedictis)
Organization: The MITRE Coporation, Bedford, MA
Lines: 26
Keywords: networks 520ST modem
Summary: Computer companies should provide user net

In article <345@ccivax.UUCP> guest@ccivax.UUCP (What's in a name ?) writes:
[color=blue]>  ...[/color]
[color=blue]> [/color]
[color=blue]> Perhaps Atari will put an "electronic software store" on-line via[/color]
[color=blue]> telenet or something so that shoppers aren't paying $6.00/hour to "Read[/color]
[color=blue]> the Ads", but they could Buy the Software for $6-$20 using their VISA.[/color]
[color=blue]> The Software could be down-loaded, just like any other bulletin board,[/color]
[color=blue]> but the documentation, micro-floppy... could be sent via regular mail[/color]
[color=blue]> or picked up at a local "specialty store" in two or three days.[/color]
[color=blue]> Of course they could still pick up $1-$2/hour for "just browsing" and[/color]
[color=blue]> still be a "Nice Place to Shop".[/color]

I think this is a great idea!  When new machines come out, computer
companies have a hard time getting people to buy them because there is so
little software and user support.  What if Atari had built in one of those
new single-chip 1200 baud modems (additional cost probably < $100) and
provided free terminal software and an 800 number or TYMNET access or
something so people could exchange public domain software and information
about their machines nation-wide.  I think this would have helped the 520ST
get off to a better start.  

I wonder if anyone else has any ideas about this.  I know for sure that the
net would be an important consideration for me in buying a computer -- I
know I can always get answers to common problems, software reviews, etc. for
several machines (Mac, PC, Amiga, etc.).  I think that people without direct
access to Usenet would probably find such information even _more_ valuable.