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Blackbird 540c - hard drive no longer recognized [message #270836] Sun, 12 October 2014 03:07 Go to next message
powerbooks is currently offline  powerbooks
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I recently acquired a beautiful 540c and hten I managed to "brick" it. I
connected my SCSI Zip drive forgetting that it's not just like plugging in
a USB drive. Apparently, the SCSI id's were in conflict, the computer
locked up, and that was the last I saw of the working hard drive. Disk
tools tells me I still have a drive but I would hate to have to format the
drive and start all over again. Hoping there is some arcane magic that I
can work to get access to the drive again rather than reformat and start
over. Any words of wisdom would be appreciated. Thanks. Jon.

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Re: Blackbird 540c - hard drive no longer recognized [message #270837 is a reply to message #270836] Thu, 16 October 2014 16:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bruce Johnson is currently offline  Bruce Johnson
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On Oct 12, 2014, at 12:07 AM, 'jpoliti' via PowerBooks <powerbooks@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> I recently acquired a beautiful 540c and hten I managed to "brick" it. I connected my SCSI Zip drive forgetting that it's not just like plugging in a USB drive. Apparently, the SCSI id's were in conflict, the computer locked up, and that was the last I saw of the working hard drive. Disk tools tells me I still have a drive but I would hate to have to format the drive and start all over again. Hoping there is some arcane magic that I can work to get access to the drive again rather than reformat and start over. Any words of wisdom would be appreciated. Thanks. Jon.
>

This should un-brick if you remove the Zip drive. SCSI conflicts are dependent on the physical members of the chain. It should boot from the HDD once the conflict is gone. What happens when you try to boot? If you get a flashing question mark, you may just need to re-bless the system folder <http://support.apple.com/kb/TA21672?viewlocale=en_US>

--
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

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Re: Blackbird 540c - hard drive no longer recognized [message #270855 is a reply to message #270836] Fri, 17 October 2014 04:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
powerbooks is currently offline  powerbooks
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> This should un-brick if you remove the Zip drive. SCSI conflicts are
dependent on the physical members of the chain. It should boot from the HDD
once the conflict is gone. What happens when you try to boot? If you get a
flashing question mark, you may just need to re-bless the system folder <
http://support.apple.com/kb/TA21672?viewlocale=en_US>

Thanks Bruce.

I was getting an "invalid node structure" error according to Disk Tools
detail report. Disconnecting the Zip drive didn't resolve the problem.
After that, I didn't have access to the drive's contents to try to re-bless
the system folder - just the flashing question mark start-up icon.

From my research online, it looks like Disk Warrior would have been able to
fix the issue, but that would require me owning a copy of the program (in a
floppy compatible format as well - the 540c doesn't have a cd rom drive). I
have Tech Tool but the version I have wasn't up to the task.

Sadly, i reformatted the drive. It took several attempts to get it
formatted but it finally took. Then I had to download System 7.5 disk
images (using my Wallstreet Powerbook - great Swiss army knife), copy the
OS from the Disk Tools floppy disk to the hard drive, restart with that
basic system on the hard drive, copy the 19 files to floppy to transfer to
the hard drive, and then upgrade/install the 7.5 operating system. Then the
time consuming task of reinstalling everything else from floppy disks.

I actually did the install twice - I foolishly thought that after changing
the SCSI address settings on the ZIP drive that the problem was solved.
Reconnecting the ZIP drive created that de javu feeling as the flashing
question mark appeared again. A quick dope slap and a few more hours of
work and the Blackbird was flying again.

My question now is - is it the cable? the ZIP drive? the computer? I'd like
to connect my old SCSI cd burner using a centronics cable and install OS 8
as well as other software I have on cd, but I don't want to go through the
whole "invalid node structure" problem again. Is there a way to determine
what's causing the problem without causing the problem?

Thanks again.
Jon.

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Re: Blackbird 540c - hard drive no longer recognized [message #270863 is a reply to message #270855] Fri, 17 October 2014 12:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bruce Johnson is currently offline  Bruce Johnson
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On Oct 17, 2014, at 1:12 AM, 'jpoliti' via PowerBooks <powerbooks@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> anks Bruce.
>
> I was getting an "invalid node structure" error according to Disk Tools detail report.

This is a vital piece of info you left out, yeah, that's a serious disk corruption, and re-formatting is usually the only fix.

The issues with the Zip drive are limited to Zip drives, which have a fixed SCSI address IIRC, and behaved funkily on SCSI anyway.

Your CD rom drive should be much more reliable.

Make sure only one terminator is on the chain, (I've seen SCSI cables for old Powerbooks that had switchable termination switches)

The best tool for SCSI problems to get is SCSI Probe. < http://www.adaptec.com/en-us/speed/mac/scsi/scsiprobe_v52_hq x.htm> Despite the warning here, I'm pretty sure it will work with OS 7,too.

However, SCSI conflicts shouldn't cause disk corruption. I'd suspect that the Zip drive is broken, unless you have confirmed that it's working on another Mac with SCSI. Otherwise the HDD may be failing.

Your drive, most likely is set to ID0 unless you've changed the settings.

Apple's own SCSI on a Mac guide: <http://support.apple.com/kb/ta27743>


--
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

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Re: Blackbird 540c - hard drive no longer recognized [message #270895 is a reply to message #270863] Sat, 18 October 2014 11:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Howard R. Katz is currently offline  Howard R. Katz
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On Fri, 17 Oct 2014, Bruce Johnson wrote:

>
> The issues with the Zip drive are limited to Zip drives, which have a
> fixed SCSI address IIRC, and behaved funkily on SCSI anyway.

Just an FYI--zipdrives have a choice of 2 SCSI IDs--and IIRC it's just 5
and 6. One thing to check on any other SCSI devices you're using would be
the SCSI ID--if more than one device is trying to use the same ID, you'll
have lots of trouble.

The other problem with the zipdrive is that unlike other SCSI devices, the
zip doesn't supply the termpower voltage to the SCSI line. Most SCSI
enclosures that work off a standard wall plug do add that in, but the
zipdrive uses a (very weighty!) wall-wart that only powers the drive and
nothing else. I think the powerbook series that had the built in SCSI
port supplied termpower voltage, but I'm not 100% sure. (In the Apple II
days, you'd have to do a small mod to the Apple SVSI card to get termpower
on to the line so thezip would work. I even still have the pdfs showing
how to do this. :) )


Later.................Howard

____________________________________________________________
Computer n. A pocket calculator with a glandular problem.

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Re: Blackbird 540c - hard drive no longer recognized [message #270901 is a reply to message #270895] Sat, 18 October 2014 12:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andrew Kershaw is currently offline  Andrew Kershaw
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Zip 100 drives have a termination switch on the back, though. At the least, it should be turned on. If using an external terminator, it should be switched off. I assume it's passive termination. I never had a problem hooking up a Zip drive via SCSI to my PowerBook G3, but that is one of the few PowerBooks that supplies term power.

> On Oct 18, 2014, at 9:23 AM, "Howard R. Katz" <h.katz@FoxValley.net> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 17 Oct 2014, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>
>>
>> The issues with the Zip drive are limited to Zip drives, which have a fixed SCSI address IIRC, and behaved funkily on SCSI anyway.
>
> Just an FYI--zipdrives have a choice of 2 SCSI IDs--and IIRC it's just 5 and 6. One thing to check on any other SCSI devices you're using would be the SCSI ID--if more than one device is trying to use the same ID, you'll have lots of trouble.
>
> The other problem with the zipdrive is that unlike other SCSI devices, the zip doesn't supply the termpower voltage to the SCSI line. Most SCSI enclosures that work off a standard wall plug do add that in, but the zipdrive uses a (very weighty!) wall-wart that only powers the drive and nothing else. I think the powerbook series that had the built in SCSI port supplied termpower voltage, but I'm not 100% sure. (In the Apple II days, you'd have to do a small mod to the Apple SVSI card to get termpower on to the line so thezip would work. I even still have the pdfs showing how to do this. :) )
>
>
> Later.................Howard
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Computer n. A pocket calculator with a glandular problem.
>
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Re: Blackbird 540c - hard drive no longer recognized [message #270902 is a reply to message #270901] Sat, 18 October 2014 12:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andrew Kershaw is currently offline  Andrew Kershaw
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Here is a good read on SCSI. It's focused on Amigas, but the concepts still apply.

http://www.wonkity.com/~wblock/SCSI/SCSIExamples.html


> On Oct 18, 2014, at 10:25 AM, Andrew Kershaw <alk@mac.com> wrote:
>
> Zip 100 drives have a termination switch on the back, though. At the least, it should be turned on. If using an external terminator, it should be switched off. I assume it's passive termination. I never had a problem hooking up a Zip drive via SCSI to my PowerBook G3, but that is one of the few PowerBooks that supplies term power.
>
>>> On Oct 18, 2014, at 9:23 AM, "Howard R. Katz" <h.katz@FoxValley.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Fri, 17 Oct 2014, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> The issues with the Zip drive are limited to Zip drives, which have a fixed SCSI address IIRC, and behaved funkily on SCSI anyway.
>>
>> Just an FYI--zipdrives have a choice of 2 SCSI IDs--and IIRC it's just 5 and 6. One thing to check on any other SCSI devices you're using would be the SCSI ID--if more than one device is trying to use the same ID, you'll have lots of trouble.
>>
>> The other problem with the zipdrive is that unlike other SCSI devices, the zip doesn't supply the termpower voltage to the SCSI line. Most SCSI enclosures that work off a standard wall plug do add that in, but the zipdrive uses a (very weighty!) wall-wart that only powers the drive and nothing else. I think the powerbook series that had the built in SCSI port supplied termpower voltage, but I'm not 100% sure. (In the Apple II days, you'd have to do a small mod to the Apple SVSI card to get termpower on to the line so thezip would work. I even still have the pdfs showing how to do this. :) )
>>
>>
>> Later.................Howard
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> Computer n. A pocket calculator with a glandular problem.
>>
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>
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Re: Blackbird 540c - hard drive no longer recognized [message #270903 is a reply to message #270901] Sat, 18 October 2014 12:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Howard R. Katz is currently offline  Howard R. Katz
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It does have that switch, but the drive doesn't supply termpwr. Having
had to mod a lot of Apple II SCSI cards I know this 1st-hand. :) Now, if
the ZipDrive is on a SCSI chain, this may not be as much as an issue.

On Sat, 18 Oct 2014, Andrew Kershaw wrote:

> Zip 100 drives have a termination switch on the back, though. At the least, it should be turned on. If using an external terminator, it should be switched off. I assume it's passive termination. I never had a problem hooking up a Zip drive via SCSI to my PowerBook G3, but that is one of the few PowerBooks that supplies term power.
>
>> On Oct 18, 2014, at 9:23 AM, "Howard R. Katz" <h.katz@FoxValley.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 17 Oct 2014, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> The issues with the Zip drive are limited to Zip drives, which have a fixed SCSI address IIRC, and behaved funkily on SCSI anyway.
>>
>> Just an FYI--zipdrives have a choice of 2 SCSI IDs--and IIRC it's just 5 and 6. One thing to check on any other SCSI devices you're using would be the SCSI ID--if more than one device is trying to use the same ID, you'll have lots of trouble.
>>
>> The other problem with the zipdrive is that unlike other SCSI devices, the zip doesn't supply the termpower voltage to the SCSI line. Most SCSI enclosures that work off a standard wall plug do add that in, but the zipdrive uses a (very weighty!) wall-wart that only powers the drive and nothing else. I think the powerbook series that had the built in SCSI port supplied termpower voltage, but I'm not 100% sure. (In the Apple II days, you'd have to do a small mod to the Apple SVSI card to get termpower on to the line so thezip would work. I even still have the pdfs showing how to do this. :) )
>>
>>
>> Later.................Howard
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> Computer n. A pocket calculator with a glandular problem.
>>
>> --
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>
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Later.................Howard

____________________________________________________________
Computer n. A pocket calculator with a glandular problem.

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Re: Blackbird 540c - hard drive no longer recognized [message #270907 is a reply to message #270855] Sat, 18 October 2014 16:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Geke is currently offline  Geke
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I hope you shut down the 520c before connecting and disconnecting the ZIP
drive?!

If you have no other SCSI devices attached, the ID setting on the ZIP drive
doesn’t matter, because the powerbook’s internal drive is ID zero. But
switch on the termination.

Try starting up the powerbook with the ZIP drive on and a cartridge loaded.
If the powerbook doesn’t recognize the drive by itself, use SCSI Probe to
mount it.

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Re: Blackbird 540c - hard drive no longer recognized [message #270963 is a reply to message #270836] Sun, 19 October 2014 15:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
powerbooks is currently offline  powerbooks
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I have touched the hot stove and don't want to get burned again. My big
concern isn't so much the Zip drive not being recognized as the SCSI hard
drive getting tangled with the Zip drive and giving me another invalid node
error. I'd have to reformat and reinstall everything.
I have my Wallstreet that also has SCSI, and the hard drive is IDE, so I
don't think I would have a problem with corrupting that drive if I try to
test the ZIP drive with that PowerBook (someone please correct me if I am
wrong). If I can get the drive to recognize then I would assume it is a
matter of settings and "pilot error".
I will read the article that Andrew left the link for - thanks to everyone
for helping - I didn't know if I was going to get any responses at all.
Each time Apple releases a new set of machines, I feel more and more like a
Luddite (and yes I have my trustee 17" 2011 MacBook Pro & 27" 2011 iMac) My
students look and laugh at me and my old PowerBooks like I used to look and
laugh at 8 track tapes.

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Re: Blackbird 540c - hard drive no longer recognized [message #271470 is a reply to message #270836] Sat, 25 October 2014 13:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
powerbooks is currently offline  powerbooks
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Quick follow-up - finally got the SCSI CD drive connected. In the process
of making it all work together. The brand is APS Tech (now part of LaCie).
I had lost the disks for the software. Fortunately, someone had archived
their "Tools of the Trade" disk at the MacIntosh Garden. I recommend
downloading the software - it works not just for APS drives, but other
manufacturers. The cd is a bootable disk with drivers for all types of
hardware, from SCSI to USB to Firewire, and although boots to OS 9, it has
workarounds for earlier and later OS's.

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Re: Blackbird 540c - hard drive no longer recognized [message #272349 is a reply to message #270836] Wed, 05 November 2014 13:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
powerbooks is currently offline  powerbooks
Messages: 18
Registered: September 2014
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Junior Member
The 540c is now running OS 8.1 - I installed 8.0 from CD and then ran 8.1
from an old MacAddict cd-rom. Touch and go for the install - didn't have
enough hard drive space and I had to jettison the ballast. At first I was
thinking about upgrading the hard drive but I managed to eek it out with
about 30 megs to spare (whew).

On Sunday, October 12, 2014 3:07:31 AM UTC-4, jpoliti wrote:
>
> I recently acquired a beautiful 540c and then I managed to "brick" it. I
> connected my SCSI Zip drive forgetting that it's not just like plugging in
> a USB drive. Apparently, the SCSI id's were in conflict, the computer
> locked up, and that was the last I saw of the working hard drive. Disk
> tools tells me I still have a drive but I would hate to have to format the
> drive and start all over again. Hoping there is some arcane magic that I
> can work to get access to the drive again rather than reformat and start
> over. Any words of wisdom would be appreciated. Thanks. Jon.
>

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Re: Blackbird 540c - hard drive no longer recognized [message #272350 is a reply to message #272349] Wed, 05 November 2014 13:37 Go to previous message
Bruce Johnson is currently offline  Bruce Johnson
Messages: 319
Registered: August 2012
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Senior Member

On Nov 5, 2014, at 11:33 AM, 'jpoliti' via PowerBooks <powerbooks@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> The 540c is now running OS 8.1 - I installed 8.0 from CD and then ran 8.1 from an old MacAddict cd-rom. Touch and go for the install - didn't have enough hard drive space and I had to jettison the ballast. At first I was thinking about upgrading the hard drive but I managed to eek it out with about 30 megs to spare (whew).

I was quite pleased with my 540c running that OS. Pretty impressive for the time. Used it for a couple of years until I scrounged a Pismo. Even managed to get it up on WiFi (laboriously, and not very reliably) with an Orinoco PCMCIA adapter. I had to get *just* the right version of the card and the pcmcia card adapter though.

--
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

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